TENA TATOU KATOA. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I AM SIMON SHEPHERD. E NGA IWI O TE MOTU, NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` A MOUTHY MINISTER, A POLICY BONFIRE, AND A CHAOTIC DAY ON THE NINTH FLOOR ` WE TAKE YOU INSIDE THE NEW PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE FOR OUR FIRST ELECTION YEAR INTERVIEW. IS A VOTE FOR THE GREENS JUST A VOTE FOR GREEN-WASHING, OR WILL THE PARTY HIT BACK AT LABOUR'S DUMPING OF ITS POLICIES? MARAMA DAVIDSON ON THE PITCH. PLUS, AN ACT MP, A BRUSH WITH DEATH, AND LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT ` MP SIMON COURT IN A WHOLE NEW LIGHT ON BACKSTORY. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME ` IT WAS VERGING ON TURMOIL IN THE NEW PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE YESTERDAY, HIPKINS AND HIS TEAM CONFERRING ON HOW TO DEAL WITH ROGUE MINISTER STUART NASH. THE NATION HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT; OUR INTERVIEW WITH THE PRIME MINISTER DELAYED THREE TIMES OVER FOUR HOURS, AS CHRIS HIPKINS WRESTLED WITH THE FIRST REAL TEST OF HIS POLITICAL MANAGEMENT. PRIME MINISTER, IT'S BEEN A HELL OF A DAY. IT'S BEEN A BIG COUPLE OF WEEKS. (CHUCKLES) BUT PARTICULARLY TODAY, YOU'VE HAD A REAL TEST WITH STUART NASH. TELL US WHY HE REMAINS IN CABINET. SO CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, STUART HASN'T MET THE EXPECTATIONS THAT I WOULD HAVE OF HIM ` OR THAT, I THINK, NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD HAVE OF A MINISTER IN THE CABINET, AND I HAVE TO WEIGH UP THEN WHAT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO THAT IS. IN TERMS OF HIS, YOU KNOW, EARLIER ISSUES IN THE` EARLIER IN THE WEEK, HE LOST THE POLICE PORTFOLIO; CLEARLY, SOME MORE THINGS HAVE COME TO LIGHT. I'VE CONSIDERED THOSE IN LIGHT OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE RESPONSE WAS TO OTHER MINISTERS IN SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES, AND I'VE MADE THE DECISION TO DEMOTE HIM AND TO PUT HIM ON A FINAL WARNING. PRIME MINISTER, HE IS A REPEAT OFFENDER. THREE` WE'VE HAD THREE INCIDENTS NOW COME OUT OVER THE PAST THREE DAYS. WHY DOES HE REMAIN IN CABINET? SO I HAVE TO CONSIDER, YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY, THE FACTS OF THE CASE, THE MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THE CASE. IN ALL OF THEM HERE, THERE WAS NO PERSONAL INTEREST INVOLVED. IT WASN'T LIKE HE WAS ADVOCATING FOR SOME OF HIS FRIENDS OR PEOPLE WHO HE KNEW ` WHICH HAS BEEN, IN THE PAST, CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH MINISTERS HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS. IN THIS CASE, HE WAS ADVOCATING FOR CONSTITUENTS; HE CHOSE AN INCORRECT PROCESS. THE COMMENTARY` YOU KNOW, THE CHOICE OF WORDS THAT HE HAD IN COMMENTING ON MATTERS BEFORE THE COURT WEREN'T AN APPROPRIATE CHOICE OF WORDS FOR A MINISTER TO USE. THIS IS A REMINDER, I GUESS, TO ALL MINISTERS THAT THEY HAVE TO BE MORE CAREFUL IN THE WORDS THAT THEY USE TO OTHER POLITICIANS AND TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC. WELL, THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE A MINISTER OF THE CROWN, YOU HAVE POWER, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE RESPONSIBILITY, AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT HE HAS BEEN CAVALIER IN HIS APPROACH AND HE HAS DONE IT ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS. HE'S ULTIMATELY FACED A CONSEQUENCE FOR HIS COMMENTS AND FOR HIS ACTIONS, AND I DO EXPECT THAT HE WILL DO BETTER IN THE FUTURE. BUT AS I SAID, I'VE CAREFULLY WEIGHED THIS UP AGAINST, YOU KNOW, THE SANCTION THAT'S BEEN APPLIED TO OTHER MINISTERS, OTHER MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT IN SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES. WELL, OTHER MINISTERS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR PORTFOLIOS, THEY HAVE ALSO BEEN EJECTED FROM THE EXECUTIVE AS WELL. HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT I CAN SEE ON THIS LIST HERE OF 14 THAT HASN'T BEEN STRIPPED OF HIS CABINET ROLES. IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. SO LIKE I SAID` BUT HE'S BREACHED. LIKE I SAID, IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. IF YOU LOOK AT` I CAREFULLY REVIEWED THAT LIST AS WELL OF OTHER MINISTERS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR ROLES AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND THAT, AND IN SOME` YOU KNOW, MANY OF THOSE CASES, THERE WAS A PERSONAL NATURE TO IT ` SO THEY WERE ADVOCATING ON BEHALF OF A FRIEND, THERE WAS A PERSONAL INTEREST IN IT, SO THEY STOOD TO GAIN PERSONALLY FROM THEIR DECISIONS OR FROM SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD BEEN INVOLVED WITH. THAT'S NOT THE CASE HERE. WELL, THIS IS A REAL RISK FOR YOU, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S NOTHING ELSE? I'VE SPOKEN TO STUART TO GET A REASSURANCE FROM HIM. I'VE MADE` YOU KNOW, I'VE` BUT HE MADE THAT REASSURANCE EARLY ON, AND THEN TWO OTHER THINGS HAVE COME OUT. I'VE IMPRESSED ON HIM THE IMPORTANCE OF MAKING SURE THAT HE IS CAREFULLY THINKING BACK AS TO WHETHER THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES THAT MIGHT COME UP. HE'S GIVEN ME AN ASSURANCE THAT HE'S CAREFULLY THOUGHT THAT THROUGH. I THINK THE KEY THING NOW IS HE KNOWS THAT HE'S ON A FINAL WARNING; I'M SURE THAT HE'S GOING TO BE EXTRA VIGILANT FROM HERE ON IN TO MAKE SURE THAT HE IS UPHOLDING THE STANDARDS THAT WE WOULD EXPECT OF A MINISTER. I WANT TO LOOK AT POLITICAL MANAGEMENT MORE GENERALLY NOW, AND I WANT TO LOOK BACKWARDS, AND THEN WE CAN LOOK FORWARDS. YOUR PRIME MINISTERSHIP HAS SO FAR BEEN DEFINED BY YOUR BURNING OF POLICY. YOU'VE COME UP WITH $1.7bn THAT YOU CAN PUT TOWARDS THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS. WHAT I'D LIKE TO ASK IS ` WHY WAS THIS WORK NOT DONE BY YOUR GOVERNMENT LAST YEAR? THE PREVIOUS PRIME MINISTER INDICATED BEFORE CHRISTMAS THAT WE WERE GOING TO NEED TO GO THROUGH A REPRIORITISATION PROCESS AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR. I THINK OUR GOVERNMENT HAS DEMONSTRATED OVER THE LAST FIVE AND A HALF YEARS THAT AS CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE, WE NEED TO CHANGE, AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO ADAPT TO THEM. SO OUR PRIORITIES IN 2020 WERE ACTUALLY QUITE DIFFERENT TO WHAT THEY WERE WHEN WE BECAME GOVERNMENT IN 2017, BECAUSE THE SITUATION HAD CHANGED. WE WERE DEALING WITH A GLOBAL PANDEMIC; WE HAD TO RECUT OUR CLOTH ACCORDINGLY. NOW WE'RE OUT THE OTHER SIDE OF MUCH OF THAT PANDEMIC RESPONSE, AND WE'RE FACING A NEW SET OF CHALLENGES AROUND THE ECONOMY AND AROUND RECOVERING FROM TWO RECENT NATURAL DISASTERS THAT HAVE HAD A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT, SO WE NEED TO GO THROUGH AGAIN AND WE NEED TO RECUT OUR CLOTH TO MEET THE CIRCUMSTANCES. ABSOLUTELY. BUT WHAT I'M ASKING IS` INFLATION BEGAN SPIKING IN JUNE OF 2021; THIS CRISIS THAT WE ARE NOW IN, THIS COST OF LIVING CRISIS, HAS BEEN IN THE POST FOR AROUND 18 MONTHS. SO MANY KIWIS WILL BE LOOKING AT THE POLICIES THAT YOU'VE BURNED JUST THIS YEAR AND THINKING THE GOVERNMENT WAS RUNNING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, CHASING UNPOPULAR POLICIES THAT WERE IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN WHILE THEY'VE STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET IN THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, PRIME MINISTER. WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN LOOKING AT THE COST OF LIVING, YOU KNOW, CHALLENGES OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME. SO` BUT IT HASN'T BEEN YOUR SINGLE FOCUS, WHICH IT IS NOW, AND WHAT I'M ASKING IS WHETHER THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE 12 MONTHS AGO. WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY BEEN A FOCUS OF THE GOVERNMENT. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE FUEL TAX REDUCTIONS, THE HALF-PRICE PUBLIC TRANSPORT, THE COST OF LIVING PAYMENT, THE WINTER ENERGY PAYMENT, INCREASES TO THE MINIMUM WAGE ` THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING TO SUPPORT NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH WHAT IS A REALLY CHALLENGING SET OF ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES. YES, ABSOLUTELY. AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING AT ALL. BUT WHY WAS THIS NOT YOUR FOCUS LAST YEAR AS YOU HAVE MADE IT AT THE START OF YOUR PRIME MINISTERSHIP? WHY WAS THE GOVERNMENT PURSUING UNPOPULAR POLICIES, POLICIES THAT WERE IRRELEVANT TO NEW ZEALANDERS AT A TIME WHEN THEY WERE STRUGGLING WITH A COST OF LIVING CRISIS? WELL, LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO SPEND MY WHOLE TIME LOOKING BACKWARDS, BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE NEEDED AT THE START OF THIS YEAR TO SAY, 'LOOK, THERE ARE THINGS 'THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO DO, BUT NOW'S NOT THE RIGHT TIME TO DO THEM.' I THINK` WHAT I ALSO SAID ` AND I'VE BEEN QUITE OPEN ABOUT THIS ` IS I THINK, TO SOME EXTENT, OUR GOVERNMENT WAS TRYING TO DO TOO MANY THINGS ALL AT THE SAME TIME. WELL, WAS IT DOING THE WRONG THINGS, PRIME MINISTER? RUNNING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION? THAT IS A LOT OF BANDWIDTH. AND I THINK IF ANYTHING, WE WERE STRETCHING THE BANDWIDTH A BIT MUCH, YOU KNOW, WITH TOO MANY THINGS ON THE GO AT THE SAME TIME, AND I THINK WE HAVE NEEDED TO REPRIORITISE AND REFOCUS. THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON LEADING THE GOVERNMENT THROUGH. YEAH. SO YOU DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ACTUALLY, THOSE POLICIES THAT YOU HAVE PUT ON THE BONFIRE AND BURNED, ESSENTIALLY, THEY WERE POLICIES THAT WERE NOT REFLECTIVE OF THE PRIORITIES OF NEW ZEALAND? WELL, NEW ZEALANDERS' PRIORITIES HAVE CHANGED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. AGAIN, IF` LET'S GO BACK TO 2017 ` HOLD ON. DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCE. TWO YEARS AGO, NEW ZEALANDERS' NUMBER ONE` I'M TALKING ABOUT LAST YEAR... YEAH` WELL` ...AND THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE JUST BURNED. AT THE BEGINNING OF LAST YEAR, NEW ZEALANDERS' NUMBER ONE PRIORITY ` YOU KNOW, ACCORDING TO ALL THE POLLS AND ALL THE RESEARCH ` WAS COVID-19, AND NOW IT BARELY FEATURES IN TERMS OF THE ISSUES THAT NEW ZEALANDERS ARE ANXIOUS AND CONCERNED ABOUT. NEW ZEALANDERS' PRIORITIES HAVE CHANGED DURING THAT TIME; GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE REFLECTING NEW ZEALANDERS' EXPECTATION OF US. DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THOSE POLICIES WERE NOT IN LINE WITH THE PRIORITIES OF NEW ZEALANDERS? I'D ACKNOWLEDGE THAT SOME OF THOSE THINGS WERE THINGS THAT WOULD BE NICE TO DO ` THERE WAS MERIT IN THEM ` BUT NOT RIGHT NOW; THEY'RE NOT THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY AT THE MOMENT. SO, YOU'VE MADE YOUR ABILITY TO SORT OF OWN MISTAKES A CENTRAL PLANK OF WHO YOU ARE AS PRIME MINISTER. SO WHY CAN'T YOU JUST ACKNOWLEDGE TO VOTERS, 'YEP, WE GOT IT WRONG, 'AND THE TIME AND ENERGY THAT WENT INTO THOSE 'COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SPENT'? OH, LOOK, I'LL OWN MY MISTAKES. YOU KNOW, WHERE I MAKE A MISTAKE, I'VE BEEN REALLY UPFRONT WITH KIWIS. I'M A HUMAN BEING, AND I WILL MAKE MISTAKES ` I'M BOUND TO MAKE SOME IN THE FUTURE, AND I'LL ENDEAVOUR TO OWN THOSE WHEN I DO. AND I DON'T THINK I MAKE MORE MISTAKES THAN OTHER POLITICIANS. I THINK I DO OWN THEM A BIT MORE AND I'M A BIT MORE CANDID AND A BIT MORE HONEST ABOUT THEM THAN PERHAPS SOME OTHER PEOPLE ARE. IN TERMS OF THE GOVERNMENT'S OVERALL APPROACH, THOUGH, I'M NOT GOING TO PROVIDE A COMMENTARY ON MY PREDECESSOR OR` YOU KNOW, WE'RE DIFFERENT PEOPLE; WE'VE GOT DIFFERENT PRIORITIES, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD BE FAIR. WHAT I AM GOING TO DO IS` NO, BUT IF SHE WERE SITTING HERE, PRIME MINISTER, I WOULD BE ASKING HER THE SAME QUESTIONS. AND YOU ARE NOW THE PRIME MINISTER. YOU WERE AROUND THAT CABINET TABLE; YOU WERE MAKING THOSE DECISIONS. AND SO YOU'RE ACCOUNTABLE NOW. ABSOLUTELY. AND, YOU KNOW, I'LL TOTALLY BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE DECISIONS THAT I MAKE AS PRIME MINISTER AND THAT THE CABINET MAKES. AND I'VE SET OUT REALLY CLEARLY WHAT I WANT US TO BE FOCUSED ON. AND SO WILL YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ACTUALLY, THOSE` THE POLICIES THAT YOU WERE PURSUING LAST YEAR, THE GOVERNMENT WAS OUT OF TOUCH? I DON'T THINK NECESSARILY OUT OF TOUCH. I THINK WE NEEDED TO REFOCUS AND REPRIORITISE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DONE. WHY DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT WAS LOSING SUPPORT LAST YEAR IN THE POLLS? YOU'RE A POLITICAL ANIMAL; YOU WILL HAVE LOOKED AT THIS. YEAH, LOOK, I THINK 20` SORT OF THE SECOND HALF OF 2021 AND THEN THROUGH 2022 WAS REALLY CHALLENGING FOR NEW ZEALAND AND FOR NEW ZEALANDERS. I KNOW PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE GLOBAL PANDEMIC ANYMORE, BUT CLEARLY, OUR EXIT FROM OUR ELIMINATION STRATEGY WAS A BUMPY ROAD, AND THAT CREATED SOME REALLY BIG CHALLENGES FOR KIWIS. YOU KNOW, UP IN AUCKLAND, I KNOW THAT THEY'RE STILL FEELING THE AFTER-EFFECTS OF THE LOCKDOWN AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT WITH THAT, AND CLEARLY, THAT AFFECTED THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE GOVERNMENT. I` LET'S BE UPFRONT AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. AND THERE'S STILL A LEGACY THERE; THERE'S STILL THE TAIL END OF THAT THAT'S OUT THERE. I THINK, YOU KNOW, THROUGH 2022, WE SAW A DIFFERENT SET OF CHALLENGES EMERGE. THE COST OF LIVING CLEARLY BECAME ONE OF THE FOREFRONT ISSUES FOR NEW ZEALANDERS, AND THEY WANTED TO SEE US REFOCUS ON THAT. I'M ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT WE ARE NOW REFOCUSED ON THAT, AND THEY'RE GOING TO SEE REAL CLARITY FROM US IN THAT SPACE. BUT THAT TOOK` THAT'S AN ADMISSION THERE, THAT ACTUALLY, THAT WAS THE FOCUS FOR NEW ZEALANDERS IN 2022, AND IT'S ONLY NOW THAT YOU ARE REPRIORITISING. I` THAT IS WHY YOU STARTED LOSING SUPPORT, THAT SOFT SUPPORT IN THE POLLS, ISN'T IT? LOOK, I THINK, IF YOU GO BACK, AGAIN, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT WE'VE ONLY JUST STARTED FOCUSING THE COST OF LIVING. BUT` THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION, PRIME MINISTER. WELL, NO, BUT THROUGH 2022, THERE WERE OTHER THINGS WE HAD TO FOCUS ON AS WELL. YOU KNOW, AS COVID-19 MADE ITS WAY ACROSS THE NEW ZEALAND COMMUNITY FOR THE FIRST TIME, IN THE FIRST HALF OF LAST YEAR, THAT WAS A BIG ISSUE FOR NEW ZEALANDERS, AND WE HAD TO ACTUALLY MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE GETTING THAT RIGHT. OTHERWISE, THE CONSEQUENCES COULD HAVE SIMPLY BEEN THAT WE EXPERIENCED WHAT THE REST OF THE WORLD DID, ONLY ON A DIFFERENT TIMETABLE. WE'VE MANAGED TO COME THROUGH THAT WITH ONE OF THE LOWEST MORTALITY RATES AND THE LOWEST NUMBER OF DEATHS FROM COVID IN THE WORLD. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT COVID NOW. NO, BUT WE HAD TO DO THAT IN THE FIRST HALF OF LAST YEAR, AND I DON'T THINK NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD HAVE EXPECTED ANY LESS OF US. BUT BY THE END OF THE YEAR, PEOPLE WERE PISSED OFF. THEY WERE` THE SENTIMENT AROUND THE GOVERNMENT WAS NOT GOOD. THAT IS WHERE YOU WERE AT WITH THE ELECTORATE, PRIME MINISTER. I THINK NEW ZEALANDERS` YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A CUMULATIVE EFFECT OF A NUMBER OF THINGS. LIKE I SAID, I DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE EXIT FROM OUR COVID ELIMINATION STRATEGY AND ALL OF THE BUNDLE OF ISSUES THAT WENT WITH THAT ` THE AUCKLAND LOCKDOWN; THE VACCINE ISSUES AROUND VACCINE AND VACCINE MANDATES ` ALL OF THOSE THINGS CUMULATIVELY HAD AN IMPACT ON THE GOVERNMENT, ALONG WITH A NEW EMERGING SET OF ISSUES AROUND COST OF LIVING, AROUND A GENERAL KIND OF SENSE OF FRUSTRATION. THINGS LIKE THE WEATHER EVENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK` YOU KNOW... I THINK THERE'S A HANKERING AMONGST NEW ZEALANDERS FOR JUST, 'CAN WE JUST HAVE A BIT OF NORMAL LIFE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME 'WHERE THERE AREN'T ALL OF THESE UNEXPECTED EVENTS?' YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S BEEN A HECK OF A LOT THAT KIWIS HAVE HAD THROWN AT THEM IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. WELL, THE GOOD NEWS, I SUPPOSE, IS THAT PEOPLE SEEM TO LIKE YOU, AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN SOME SMART POLICY THIS WEEK ` CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE, PRIME MINISTER. THE COST OF LIVING INFLATION ADJUSTMENT ` THAT WILL SIT WELL WITH SUPERANNUITANTS, WITH STUDENTS, WITH PEOPLE ON FIXED INCOMES AS THEY STRUGGLE` UH, THOSE RISING COSTS. BUT WHAT'S NEXT? WHAT'S NEXT IS, YOU KNOW, GUIDING NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH` LEADING NEW ZEALAND THROUGH SOME CHALLENGING ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES. NOW, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES AROUND, YOU KNOW` ONE OF THE REALLY DIFFICULT BALANCING ACTS THAT GOVERNMENT HAS AT THE MOMENT ` AND NEW ZEALAND'S GOVERNMENT IN PARTICULAR HAS AT THE MOMENT ` IS MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE SUPPORTING NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH A CHALLENGING SET OF ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES WITHOUT... WITHOUT CONTRIBUTING TO THOSE. AND INFLATION POSES A REAL CHALLENGE FOR US THERE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE COMBINATION OF HIGH INFLATION AND THE POTENTIAL FOR` YOU KNOW, FOR NEW ZEALAND TO TIP INTO RECESSION ` IT'S A POTENTIAL AT THIS POINT; I'M NOT GOING TO FORECAST THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. MM? SOME OF THE ECONOMISTS ARE, AND SOME OF THE ECONOMISTS AREN'T. SO IT'S A DIFFICULT BALANCING ACT, AND WE NEED TO LEAD NEW ZEALANDERS CAREFULLY THROUGH THAT. AND SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT? BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A NEW PROBLEM. THIS` LIKE I SAID, THIS HAS BEEN IN THE POST NOW FOR 18 MONTHS. SO WHAT IS` HOW IS CHRIS HIPKINS GOING TO LEAD THE COUNTRY THROUGH THIS NEXT ` AND QUITE CRUCIAL ` PART? I THINK WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE INFLATION HAS STAYED HIGHER FOR LONGER. YOU KNOW, IF WE WENT BACK A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, MOST ECONOMISTS WOULDN'T HAVE PREDICTED THAT GLOBAL INFLATION AND NEW ZEALAND INFLATION WAS GOING TO STAY AS HIGH AS IT HAS FOR AS LONG AS IT HAS. ONE OF THE BEST THINGS WE CAN DO AS A GOVERNMENT IS FOCUS ON DOING WHAT WE CAN DOMESTICALLY TO BRING OUR INFLATION ` AND THEREFORE, IN TIME OUR INTEREST RATES ` BACK DOWN AGAIN, BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT HELP TO HOUSEHOLD BUDGETS. AND THAT IS GOING TO CONSTRAIN GOVERNMENT ACTIVITY; IT IS GOING TO MEAN THAT SOME OF THOSE NICE-TO-DO THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT OTHERWISE THINK ABOUT DOING WE WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IN THE SHORT TERM. BUT ARE WE GOING TO SEE POLICY AND GOVERNING THIS YEAR FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT? BECAUSE IT IS SEVEN MONTHS OUT FROM AN ELECTION. IT'S A VERY SHORT RUNWAY THAT KIWIS HAVE. BUT WE CAN'T REALLY AFFORD TO WASTE MORE TIME, CAN WE? LOOK, I THINK YOU'VE ALREADY SEEN POLICY AND GOVERNING FROM THIS GOVERNMENT UNDER MY PRIME MINISTERSHIP THAT IS VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON THE ISSUES THAT WE'VE GOT IN FRONT OF US RIGHT NOW. BUT THAT IS NOT A COMPLETE FIX, PRIME MINISTER, AND YOU WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. SO WHAT'S NEXT? WELL, THE GOVERNMENT'S GOT A VERY BUSY WORK PROGRAMME. IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE SPEECH` THE STATEMENT THAT I MADE TO THE BEGINNING OF PARLIAMENT THIS YEAR... I'VE SEEN IT. ...IT'S ABOUT 20 ODD PAGES LONG, AND IT'S GOT A LOT OF DETAIL IN IT ABOUT WHAT WE ARE DOING. WHAT I'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON IS SAYING, 'LET'S ACTUALLY DECLUTTER THAT A BIT; LET'S MAKE SURE 'THAT WE'RE REALLY HONING IN ON THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE 'THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE.' WELL, WE HAVE` ON ONE SIDE OF THIS PARLIAMENT RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE CHRISTOPHER LUXON DOING A SORT OF DANCE OF THE SEVEN VEILS WITH ALL OF THEIR POLICY ` WE GET IT SORT OF BIT BY BIT ` AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE HAVE YOU SETTING FIRE TO THE` YOUR PARTY'S PREVIOUS SORT OF POLICY AGENDA. BUT ACTUALLY,... WE'RE IN A CRISIS. MANY KIWIS ARE IN A CRISIS. THEY HAVE BEEN IN A STRUGGLE NOW FOR OVER A YEAR. DON'T THEY DESERVE IDEAS FROM THE OPPOSITION AND POLICY AND GOVERNING FROM YOU? WELL, THEY'RE GETTING POLICY AND GOVERNING FROM US. I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT I WOULD REFLECT CRITICALLY ON OVER THE LAST FIVE AND A HALF YEARS` WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD LOTS OF BIG IDEAS. I THINK TO SOME EXTENT, WHAT WE'RE DOING AT THE MOMENT IS JUST MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE REALLY BEING CAREFUL ABOUT HOW WE PRIORITISE AND SEQUENCE DELIVERING THOSE BIG IDEAS SO THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY DELIVERING ON THEM IN A TIMELY WAY. SO YOU HAVE BIG IDEAS? OF COURSE. THERE ARE MANY` SPECIFIC TO THIS? WELL, THERE ARE MANY BIG IDEAS. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR WORK IN CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE ARE BIG IDEAS ON THE TABLE AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE. I'M TALKING ABOUT NEW IDEAS. YOU'VE SAID YOU'RE REPRIORITISING THE WORK OF THE GOVERNMENT... AND TO ADDRESS THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS. ARE WE GOING TO SEE NEW POLICY FROM YOU THIS YEAR WHICH WILL DIRECTLY ATTACK THAT FOR NEW ZEALANDERS? OH, YOU'LL CERTAINLY SEE MORE MOVES BY THE GOVERNMENT TO HELP NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET OUR ECONOMY INTO AS BETTER` AS GOOD A SHAPE AS WE CAN GIVEN THE GLOBAL CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WE FACE. YOU'LL ABSOLUTELY SEE A RELENTLESS FOCUS BY THE GOVERNMENT ON THAT. AND OF COURSE, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE NEW THINGS AROUND REBUILDING FOLLOWING THE RECENT NATURAL DISASTERS THAT WE'VE HAD AND THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY HAVE HIGHLIGHTED FOR US, NOT ALL OF WHICH ARE IMMEDIATE. SO WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO MIDDLE-INCOME EARNERS WHO ARE BEING STRETCHED RIGHT NOW BY THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS? WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THEM IN THIS MOMENT? WELL, I ABSOLUTELY HEAR YOU. YOU KNOW, I HEAR THE CONCERN THAT YOU HAVE. I KNOW THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THE GOVERNMENT ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED ON GETTING THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS UNDER CONTROL AND SUPPORTING YOU THROUGH THAT. AND? WELL, AND YOU'LL SEE ALREADY, IN THE SHORT TIME THAT I'VE BEEN PRIME MINISTER ` THE LAST TWO MONTHS ` FEELS LIKE LONGER ALREADY ` BUT IN THAT SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, WE'VE ALREADY DONE A NUMBER OF TANGIBLE THINGS THAT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE TO HOUSEHOLD BUDGETS ` EXTENDING THE FUEL TAX DISCOUNTS, EXTENDING THE FREE HALF-PRICE PUBLIC TRANSPORT, INCREASING` THESE ARE OLD IDEAS NOW, PRIME MINISTER. THESE ARE NOT NEW IDEAS UNDER CHRIS HIPKINS. THIS IS NOT THE SORT OF REPRIORITISATION OF THE ENERGY OF THE GOVERNMENT. OH, IF` AND IF I'M SITTING AT HOME AND I'M GETTING STRETCHED ON MY MORTGAGE AND I'M LOOKING TO A NEW PRIME MINISTER WHO SAYS HE'S GOING TO MAKE IT AN ABSOLUTE PRIORITY TO ATTACK THE COST OF LIVING, WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM YOU IS JUST THAT YOU UNDERSTAND. NOT ALL OF THE IDEAS THAT ARE ON THE TABLE AT THE MOMENT ARE BAD IDEAS. THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD IDEAS ALREADY ON THE TABLE. ARE THERE NEW ONES COMING? WHAT I'VE` WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NEED LOTS OF NEW IDEAS. I THINK THE IDEAS ARE ALREADY THERE, AND SOME OF THE OLD IDEAS ARE ACTUALLY GOOD. SO THERE'S NOTHING COMING SPECIFICALLY FOR THEM? I WOULD NEVER SAY THAT, BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED ON THE ISSUES THAT WE KNOW ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF NEW ZEALANDERS. PHILOSOPHICALLY, DO YOU AGREE THAT THERE IS A` LET'S SAY A CLASS OF PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND WHO ARE NOT PAYING A FAIR AMOUNT OF TAX? THESE ARE SORT OF HIGH-WEALTH INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE NOT PAYING FAIR TAX ON THEIR HOUSES, ON THEIR SALARY OR THEIR ASSETS. I ABSOLUTELY AGREE THAT THERE IS A GROUP OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHO ARE WORKING VERY HARD AND DON'T FEEL THEY'RE ABLE TO GET AHEAD, AND THERE ARE A GROUP OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHO ARE DOING VERY WELL AT THE MOMENT, AND WHO IN SOME CASES ARE ABLE TO AVOID CONTRIBUTING BACK TO THE COUNTRY SORT OF THEIR FAIR SHARE. THEY'RE AVOIDING TAX. UH... SOME PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO STRUCTURE THEIR FINANCES SO THAT THEY DON'T PAY THE SAME DEGREE OF TAX AS OTHERS DO. IT'S A COMPLICATED` YOU KNOW, A VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE TO ADDRESS, AND I'M VERY MINDFUL THAT ALL DEBATES ABOUT TAX COME WITH SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL RISK ASSOCIATED TO THEM. SO I CAN SEE WHERE THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING IS GOING TO GO NEXT. GREAT. WELL, I'LL GO THERE. AND I'M NOT GOING TO ANNOUNCE ANY TAX POLICIES TODAY. NO, BUT ARE YOU OPEN TO FINDING A WAY TO TAX THOSE PEOPLE? LET'S CALL THEM THOSE HIGH-WEALTH INDIVIDUALS. LOOK, AS I'VE INDICATED, I'M NOT MAKING` YOU KNOW, I'M` POLICY ON TAX RIGHT NOW. THE TAX` BUT ARE YOU OPEN? I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO MAKE POLICY OR RULE ANYTHING IN OR OUT; I'M SAYING ARE YOU OPEN TO THAT? THE TAX POLICY THAT WE SET OUT AT THE LAST ELECTION CONTINUES TO STAND, AND WE WILL SET OUT A VERY CLEAR TAX POLICY BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION SO THAT NEW ZEALANDERS KNOW WHERE WE STAND ON ALL THOSE ISSUES. HOW ADVANCED IS THAT WORK, DO YOU THINK? EXPECTED BEFORE THE BUDGET? LOOK, LIKE I'VE SAID, NEW ZEALANDERS WILL KNOW WELL IN ADVANCE OF THE ELECTION WHERE WE STAND ON TAX ISSUES. I WANT TO SWITCH TO FOREIGN AFFAIRS NOW, BECAUSE THINGS ARE HEATING UP IN THE PACIFIC, AND I KNOW THAT THIS IS A FOCUS FOR YOU IN THAT FOREIGN AFFAIRS AREA. JUST THIS WEEK, WE'VE SEEN AUSTRALIA SIGN A DEAL FOR NUCLEAR-POWERED SUBMARINES WITH THE U.S. AND THE UK, THE CONSENSUS BETWEEN THOSE COUNTRIES SEEMS TO BE THAT CHINA IS PREPARING TO INVADE TAIWAN. SO THEY ARE LINING UP ON OUR BACK DOORSTEP. WHERE DO WE STAND? THE DEVELOPMENTS IN AUSTRALIA, SO THE AUSTRALIAN RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UK AND THE U.S., IS ULTIMATELY A MATTER FOR THEM. SURE. BUT` BUT THEY ARE` ALL THREE OF THOSE COUNTRIES ARE VERY IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS FOR NEW ZEALAND, COLLECTIVELY AND INDIVIDUALLY, AS IS CANADA; AS` YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A VERY STRONG RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA AND A TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA AS WELL. NEW ZEALAND'S FOREIGN POLICY IS PROUDLY INDEPENDENT. WE WILL ALWAYS ACT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF NEW ZEALAND AND NEW ZEALANDERS. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE THE SAME FOREIGN POLICY POSITION AS OUR CLOSE FRIENDS, BUT IT DOES MEAN WE'LL CONTINUE TO WORK VERY CLOSELY WITH THEM. WELL, THE FORMER AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER PAUL KEATING HAS SAID THAT THIS IS THE WORST DECISION IN AUSTRALIA'S HISTORY, THAT THE SUBMARINE DEAL IS NOT ABOUT DEFENDING AUSTRALIA; IT'S ABOUT DEFENDING TAIWAN, ACTUALLY. BUT EITHER WAY, WE DO KNOW WHERE AUSTRALIA STANDS ON THIS ISSUE ` THEY ARE SAYING WHERE THEY ARE LOUD AND CLEAR, AND THAT IS HELPING THE U.S. WHERE ARE WE, PRIME MINISTER? WHAT IS OUR POSITION? LOOK, I'M NOT GOING TO PROVIDE A COMMENTARY ON ANOTHER COUNTRY'S FOREIGN POLICY, INCLUDING` NO, I'M ASKING YOU WHERE WE STAND` INCLUDING OUR GOOD FRIENDS IN AUSTRALIA ` THOSE ARE ULTIMATELY QUESTIONS FOR THEM. BUT WHERE DO WE STAND IN THIS DYNAMIC THAT IS RAMPING UP IN OUR OWN REGION? WE WILL ABSOLUTELY MAINTAIN AN INDEPENDENT POSITION. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHERE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA MEANS THAT THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO WORK TOGETHER, WE WILL DO THAT; WHERE WE DISAGREE WITH CHINA, WE WILL STATE THAT, AND WE WILL` IN MANY CASES, WE'LL STATE THAT PUBLICLY. IN SOME CASES, WE WILL STATE THAT PRIVATELY. YOU KNOW, WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO BE. SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CHINA INVADES TAIWAN? AGAIN, THAT'S A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION. IT'S ALWAYS` AND WE DON'T MAKE FOREIGN POLICY PRONOUNCEMENTS BASED ON HYPOTHETICALS. DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE'LL STAND ON THE SIDELINES? WE WON'T GET INVOLVED? NOT NECESSARILY, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT WE DON'T MAKE, YOU KNOW, HARD AND FAST PRONOUNCEMENT BASED ON HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS. AND NO NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENTS HAVE DONE THAT PREVIOUSLY. OK, WE'VE REACHED MY FAVOURITE PART OF THE INTERVIEW ` A QUICK-FIRE SECTION. ARE YOU AN INTROVERT OR AN EXTROVERT? UH, A BIT OF BOTH. IF YOU WEREN'T A POLITICIAN, WHAT WOULD YOU BE? I DO LOVE DOING THINGS` YOU KNOW, PRACTICAL THINGS ` YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO BUILD THINGS. I LIKE TO MAKE THINGS. SO MAYBE SOMETHING IN THAT AREA. YOU REALLY LOVE POLITICS, DON'T YOU? I DEFINITELY DO. (LAUGHS) YEAH. YOU'RE A DAD NOW. HOW DID BECOMING A PARENT CHANGE YOU? UM, LOOK, I ALWAYS FIND TALKING ABOUT FAMILY REALLY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE I TRY VERY HARD NOT TO TALK ABOUT FAMILY. BUT THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT BECOMING A DAD, UM, SETTLED ME DOWN A LITTLE BIT AND PERHAPS GAVE ME A LITTLE BIT MORE PERSPECTIVE ON THINGS, A LITTLE BIT MORE CHANCE TO SORT OF REMOVE MYSELF FROM WORK ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS AND JUST FOCUS ON SOME OF THE BASICS OF LIFE, WHICH YOU DO WHEN YOU'RE A PARENT. AND SO IT'S PROBABLY MADE ME A BIT MORE OF A GROUNDED PERSON. MM. I THINK THAT HAPPENS FOR LOTS OF PEOPLE. AND ANY REGRETS IN LIFE, PRIME MINISTER? LIFE'S TOO SHORT FOR REGRETS. YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS BELIEVE IF YOU LOOK BACK ON YOUR LIFE, YOU'LL THINK OF THINGS THAT YOU` 'OH, GOSH,' YOU KNOW, 'IF I WAS GOING TO GO BACK AND DO THAT AGAIN, MAYBE` 'WOULD I DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY?' UNDOUBTEDLY THERE'S HEAPS OF THOSE. BUT IF YOU SPEND ALL YOUR TIME THINKING ABOUT THAT, YOU DON'T TAKE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. SO I THINK YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO KEEP KIND OF LOOKING FORWARD. LIFE IS TOO SHORT FOR REGRETS. THE MISTAKES THAT WE MAKE IN THE PAST, THE THINGS WE DO IN THE PAST WHICH WE MIGHT LOOK BACK ON AND THINK, 'WHAT WAS I THINKING WHEN I DID THAT?' THEY'RE ACTUALLY THE THINGS THAT MAKE US WHO WE ARE AND ACTUALLY HELP US TO SHAPE OUR FUTURES. IT SEEMS LIKE WE HAVE ENDED THIS INTERVIEW WHERE WE STARTED. PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH. CHUCKLES: THANK YOU. AND IF YOU COULD HEAR THAT HOWLING UP THERE, THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE WIND. IT WAS THE WIND. IT WASN'T SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, OUTSIDE THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE. AND THE SIRENS AS WELL. DISTRACTING FOR YOU? AMAZINGLY NOISY FOR A NINTH FLOOR. ABSOLUTELY. GREAT INTERVIEW THERE. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` AFTER THE BREAK ` PROFESSOR ANNE-MARIE BRADY'S LIVE ANALYSIS OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S FOREIGN POLICY CHOPS. PLUS, AHEAD OF THE GREEN PARTY'S SCENE-SETTING SPEECH TOMORROW IN AUCKLAND, CO-LEADER MARAMA DAVIDSON HITS US WITH HER ELECTION-YEAR PITCH. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. WELL, ONE OF OUR MODERN CHALLENGES AS A NATION IS HOW TO POSITION OURSELVES GLOBALLY, PARTICULARLY IN RELATION TO CHINA. SOME SAY CONFLICT WITH CHINA OVER TAIWAN IS INEVITABLE. BEFORE THE BREAK, WE HEARD THE PRIME MINISTER SAY IT'S HYPOTHETICAL. PROFESSOR ANNE-MARIE BRADY IS A FLUENT MANDARIN SPEAKER AND SPECIALIST IN CHINESE POLITICS AND NEW ZEALAND FOREIGN POLICY. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S COMMENTS ON CHINA? KIA ORA, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW. HIS COMMENTS WERE VERY DIPLOMATIC, AND HE STATED AGAIN ` AS PREVIOUS LEADERS HAVE DONE ` ABOUT NEW ZEALAND INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY, THAT WE WILL WORK WITH CHINA WHERE WE CAN. BUT I WAS INTERESTED TO SEE THAT HE SAID THAT WE WILL SAY, IF NECESSARY IN PUBLIC, THE THINGS THAT WE DISAGREE ON CHINA. THAT WAS GOOD TO HEAR THAT, THAT WE ARE NOT JUST DOING THINGS BEHIND-THE-SCENES. RIGHT, SO TAKING A PUBLIC POSITION. IF YOU WERE ADVISING HIM ON CHINA, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? THE PRIME MINISTER HAS INHERITED A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA THAT HAS BECOME INCREASINGLY COMPLEX FOR NEW ZEALAND ` PARTICULARLY, CHINA'S ACTIONS IN THE PACIFIC ARE A REAL CONCERN, AS WELL AS FOREIGN INTERFERENCE AND ESPIONAGE IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS A TOP NATIONAL SECURITY PRIORITY FOR NEW ZEALAND. CHINA IS THE MAIN STATE ACTOR ENGAGING IN FOREIGN INTERFERENCE AND ESPIONAGE IN NEW ZEALAND, SO THAT MAKES IT REALLY COMPLEX. IT IS ALSO OUR MAJOR TRADING PARTNER. ABSOLUTELY, IT IS A REAL BALANCING ACT THERE. IS THE THREAT OF WAR, OR THE PROSPECT OF INFILTRATION WITHIN NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY AND SOCIETY` WHICH IS THE MORE DANGEROUS? FOR NEW ZEALAND, WE ARE IMMEDIATELY DEALING WITH THE CHALLENGE OF FOREIGN INTERFERENCE AND THE IMPACT ON OUR DEMOCRACY, AND THE IMPACT ON OUR COMMUNITY, SUCH AS THE OVERSEAS CHINESE OR THE NEW ZEALAND CHINESE COMMUNITY, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS ADDRESSING IMMEDIATELY. WE ARE ALSO LOOKING TO OUR REGION, THE PACIFIC ` THAT IS OUR TOP PRIORITY IN FOREIGN POLICY, AND OUR MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND OUR PREVIOUS PRIME MINISTER ARDERN SPOKE UP VERY CLEARLY ABOUT CONCERNS ON CHINA'S MILITARY PRESENCE IN THE PACIFIC ` PARTICULARLY LAST YEAR ABOUT THE SOLOMON SECURITY TREATY, BUT ALSO WANG YI, THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTER, COMING INTO THE PACIFIC, ASKING EIGHT OF OUR PACIFIC PARTNERS TO SIGN A SECURITY TREATY THAT WOULD EXCLUDE AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND. SO THOSE ARE REALLY BIG DEVELOPMENTS IN CHINA'S BEHAVIOUR IN OUR REGION, AS WELL AS IN OUR COUNTRY. ALSO IN OUR REGION, WE HAVE OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBOUR AND ALLY, AUSTRALIA, SINGING UP TO NUCLEAR SUBMARINES. THAT SEEMS LIKE A REALLY BIG DEVELOPMENT. I KNOW THEY'RE NOT UNTIL 2030, 2040, BUT THAT SENDS A SIGNAL, DOESN'T IT, THAT AUSTRALIA IS TAKING A STAND? DOES THAT RAISE THE TEMPERATURE A LOT? THE AUSTRALIANS HAVE HAD SUBMARINES FOR A LONG TIME. THEY HAVE A MUCH BIGGER MILITARY THAN US. BUT THESE ARE NUCLEAR SUBMARINES THAT CAN GO FURTHER OUT, AND BE DEPLOYED INTO THE PACIFIC AND EVEN TO EAST CHINA. THEIR SUBMARINES COULD ALREADY DO THAT. THEY HAD INVESTED IN FRENCH ONES, AND THEN DECIDED THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE FIT FOR PURPOSES REQUIRED. SO IT IS A CAPACITY THAT AUSTRALIA HAS THAT WE DON'T HAVE. IS TOO MUCH BEING MADE OF THAT? AUKUS IS A CAPACITY AGREEMENT. SO, YES, I DO THINK TOO MUCH IS BEING MADE OF IT. WE SHOULD BE LOOKING TO` THE QUESTION YOU SHOULD BE ASKING IS, WHAT HAPPENED AT THE TRILATERAL MEETING, WHICH WAS ONLY A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, BETWEEN NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA AND THE UNITED STATES? THAT IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT ` HOW ARE WE COORDINATING WITH THOSE THREE PARTNERS, AND WHAT WAS THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION? IF YOU COULD HAVE GOT CHRIS HIPKINS TO TALK ABOUT THAT, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERESTING. WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A TOPIC OF CONVERSATION, DO YOU THINK? I EXPECT ALL THREE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SECURITY SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC, AND ALSO THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND CONCERNS THERE. THERE ARE CONCERNS WITH CHINA, AS WELL ` NEWS THAT CAME OUT OF A POLITICO REPORT ABOUT CHINESE COMPANIES PROVIDING MILITARY SUPPORT TO RUSSIA NOW. THAT IS RIGHT. ALSO NOW WE HAVE GOT THE CHINESE PREMIER GOING TO RUSSIA TO VISIT VLADIMIR PUTIN. IS THAT A SYMBOLIC CEMENTING OF WHERE CHINA IS GOING, IN TERMS OF SUPPORTING RUSSIA IN UKRAINE? XI JINPING, GENERAL DIRECTOR OF THE CCP, WILL BE VISITING RUSSIA SOON. LAST YEAR, XI JINPING AND PUTIN MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY OBJECT TO THE RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER ` THEY SAY IT IS NOT FOR THEM; IT DOESN'T SUIT THEIR INTERESTS. THE INTERNATIONAL RULES-BASED ORDER IS WHAT MAINTAINS OUR SECURITY. OUR SECURITY RELIES ON THAT ` THAT THERE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, THAT SMALL STATES LIKE NEW ZEALAND CAN HAVE THEIR INTERESTS REPRESENTED, THAT 'MIGHT IS RIGHT' ISN'T THE RULE. THIS SITUATION IN NEW ZEALAND DIDN'T HAPPEN YESTERDAY. OUR GOVERNMENT ADVISERS IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE OR IN MFAT HAVE BEEN ADVISING OUR MINISTERS ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THIS FOR A LONG TIME NOW. WE HAVE PUBLIC DOCUMENTS STATING THAT. AND YOU HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING TO DIVERSIFY AWAY FROM CHINA AS A TRADING PARTNER AND CREATE TRADING BUBBLES WITH OTHER PEOPLE. HAVE WE DONE THAT ENOUGH TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE RESILIENCE SHOULD THIS ALL TURN PEAR-SHAPED? INTERESTINGLY, THAT WAS A POLICY ABOUT DIVERSIFYING OUR TRADE THAT CAME UP IN THE JOHN KEY ADMINISTRATION. IT IS COMMON SENSE; WHEN YOU'RE DOING BUSINESS, YOU DON'T PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET, DO YOU? YOU HAVE TO SPREAD THE STRATEGIC RISK. THAT WAS THE UNDERSTANDING THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE LEARNT WHEN THE EU ENTERED TO THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION ` THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE DEPENDENT ON ONE MARKET. THE CHALLENGE IS ALWAYS GETTING MORE COUNTRIES TO TAKE OUR GOODS, AND NEW ZEALAND IS TRYING VERY HARD TO GET MORE FTAs AND TRADE AGREEMENTS. BUT WE SHOULD ALSO BE DE-EMPHASISING OUR TRADE WITH CHINA; WE SHOULDN'T BE PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO PROMOTING IT AND DEVELOPING IT FURTHER. IN FACT, IN AN ACUTE IMBALANCE, 48% OF MAORI ENTERPRISE, WHICH IS 31% OF PRIMARY INDUSTRY, ARE EXPORTING TO CHINA. SO THAT IS A REALLY SERIOUS STATISTIC. WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH. THIS IS A DEVELOPING SITUATION, AS ALWAYS. PROFESSOR ANNE-MARIE BRADY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. A MURI AKE NEI ` COMING UP NEXT ` MARAMA DAVIDSON WITH A SNEAK PEEK OF THE GREEN PARTY PLAN FOR ELECTION YEAR. PLUS, THE ACT MP WHOSE SISTER SAVED HIS LIFE SPILLS THE BEANS IN 'BACKSTORY'. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK TO THE PITCH. AS WE'VE HEARD, THE PRIME MINISTER'S RECENT 'POLICY BONFIRE' USED GREEN PARTY PRIORITIES FOR KINDLING. SO FINN HOGAN ASKED CO-LEADER MARAMA DAVIDSON HOW THE GREEN PARTY WILL HIT BACK. I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE MORE BREAD AND BUTTER THAN CLIMATE CHANGE, THAN PEOPLE LITERALLY STRUGGLING EVERY SINGLE DAY TO COPE WITH EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS. WE WILL CONTINUE TO GET THINGS DONE WITH LABOUR, BUT WE'RE FRUSTRATED, LIKE PEOPLE ARE, ABOUT THE PACE OF CHANGE ` IT'S TOO SLOW, IT'S NOT STRONG ENOUGH, AND THIS IS WHY WE WANT TO HAVE A STRONG GREEN INFLUENCE AT THE CABINET TABLE FOR THIS ELECTION. YOU AND JAMES ARE GOING TO BE DELIVERING A STATE OF THE PLANET SPEECH TOMORROW. NO NEED TO DO THE WHOLE SPEECH, BUT GIVE ME A SAMPLE. I WON'T DO THE WHOLE SPEECH, FOR SURE. BUT OVER THE NEXT SEVEN MONTHS, PEOPLE CAN EXPECT TO SEE MORE OF THE GREEN SOLUTIONS TO LIVING WITH DIGNITY, TO PROTECTING OUR CLIMATE, AS WE ALWAYS HAVE DONE. FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THE BANKS ARE CREAMING IT RIGHT NOW. IT IS ONLY THE GREENS WHO HAVE ASKED FOR AN EXCESS PROFITS TAX SO THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH DIGNITY, AND WE CAN PROTECT OUR PLANET. GIVE ME ONE SPECIFIC POLICY THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE FIGHTING FOR. YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT FOR WHAT WE'RE SHARING WITH AOTEAROA, BUT BE CONFIDENT THAT WE'LL BE PUTTING OUT OUR VISION FOR AN AOTEAROA THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE. OK, THAT SOUNDS LIKE NOTHING NEW, BUT ISN'T THIS COMING BACK TO AN OLD PROBLEM HERE, MARAMA? UNLESS YOU CAN CREDIBLY THREATEN TO PUT NATIONAL IN GOVERNMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY LEVERAGE WITH LABOUR, AND THAT'S HOW CHRIS HIPKINS WAS SO EASILY ABLE TO TAKE AN AXE TO YOUR PRIORITIES. BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT, JUST PICKING UP ON YOUR COMMENT ABOUT 'NOTHING NEW' ` IT'S BECAUSE ALSO THE GREENS HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN ADDRESSING AHEAD OF THE ISSUES AND HAD THE LONG-TERM VIEW. IF PEOPLE WANT TO SEE` AND RIGHT NOW, AOTEAROA NEEDS AND DESERVES A GOVERNMENT THAT PRIORITISES CLIMATE ACTION. THIS IS A CLIMATE ELECTION, AND FOR THAT` FOR THE DIRECTION TO BE SET BY THE GREENS, WE WILL NEED TO SEE MORE GREEN MPs IN PARLIAMENT. BUT ACTUALLY GETTING POLICY OVER THE LINE REQUIRES NEGOTIATION WITH LABOUR. YOU NEED LABOUR MORE THAN THEY NEED YOU. HOW CAN YOU NEGOTIATE WHEN THEY HOLD ALL THE CARDS? ANY POLITICAL PARTY THAT WANTS TO NEGOTIATE WITH US AT ALL, FINN, AFTER THE ELECTION, WILL HAVE TO COME TO THE TABLE WITH STRONG ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND POLICIES THAT ENSURE THAT EVERYONE CAN LIVE WITH DIGNITY ` NOT JUST SOME. THAT'S WHAT WE ARE FOCUSED ON. BUT NATIONAL COULDN'T COME TO YOU. YOU WOULD NOT FORM A GOVERNMENT WITH NATIONAL. ARE YOU SAYING THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO CARE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE? OK, WELL, THAT'S UP TO THEM. NATIONAL, AS THEY ARE NOW ` WOULD YOU FORM A GOVERNMENT WITH THEM? RIGHT NOW, YOU'VE GOT JUDITH COLLINS WANTING TO KEEP ON WITH FOSSIL FUELS, OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION; YOU'VE GOT CLIMATE DENIAL COMING FROM MAUREEN PUGH; YOU'VE GOT SO MANY EXAMPLES OF WHY A NATIONAL AND ACT GOVERNMENT WOULD BE THE WORST THING FOR OUR PLANET AND FOR PEOPLE RIGHT NOW. AND SO THE GREENS ARE REALLY CLEAR ` IT IS US IN PARLIAMENT WHO WE NEED TO SEE MORE OF FOR THOSE SOLUTIONS. IF I WAS PUTTING MYSELF IN THE SHOES OF A VOTER ` THAT A VOTE FOR NEW ZEALAND FIRST OR TE PATI MAORI OR EVEN TOP WOULDN'T BE MORE IMPACTFUL, BECAUSE THEY COULD ACTUALLY CREDIBLY HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER. WE'VE CONTINUED TO SHOW THAT WE GET STUFF DONE, EVEN AS A MINOR PARTY, A SMALLER PARTY IN GOVERNMENT. IS THIS MOVE FROM THE PRIME MINISTER A PRAGMATIC SHIFT FOR BOTH PARTIES ` THEY MOVE CLOSER TO THE CENTRE TO TRY AND WIN THE ELECTION AND GIVE YOU ROOM TO ATTACK THEM FROM THE LEFT? I CAN'T CONTROL OR DECIDE LABOUR'S STRATEGY FOR THEM. MY FOCUS IS ON OUR GREEN VALUES, OUR GREEN PRIORITIES THAT WE ARE OFFERING TO PEOPLE. HOW CAN THEY TRUST THE PRIORITIES YOU'VE JUST LAID OUT AREN'T GOING TO GET AXED AS SOON AS IT'S PRAGMATIC FOR THE PRIME MINISTER, THOUGH? THE POWER IS IN THE PEOPLE'S HANDS. THE PRIME MINISTER HAS GOT MOST OF THE POWER, DOESN'T HE? THE PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER TO VOTE A STRONG GREEN INFLUENCE AROUND THE CABINET TABLE, AND I URGE PEOPLE TO USE THAT POWER TO SEE A STRONG GREEN VOICE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE IN BUDGET 2023, AND WHAT'S ONE THING THAT YOU DON'T THINK WE'LL SEE THAT WE SHOULD? WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE FOR WASTE MINIMISATION; WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE FOR PEOPLE` FOR THE LIKES OF WHAT EUGENIE SAGE HAS BEEN WORKING ON FOR FIVE YEARS, WHERE PEOPLE CAN RETURN A CONTAINER FOR A REFUND, AND THAT WILL ALSO HELP TO PROTECT PAPATUANUKU AND PUT MORE INCOME INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES AND WALLETS. ON POLLING, CLIMATE CHANGE RANKED AS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR 12% OF KIWIS ON A RECENT POLL,... YES! ...BUT THAT'S DWARFED BY COST OF LIVING, WHICH WAS ALMOST 50%. ISN'T THAT ON THE GREENS TO IMPROVE YOUR MESSAGING, TO GET THAT AS HIGHER UP AS A PRIORITY? WE HAVE TO DO BOTH. WE HAVE TO HELP PEOPLE LIVE GOOD LIVES, AND WE HAVE TO SAVE OUR PLANET, AND THEY ARE CONNECTED ISSUES. THEY'RE NOT SEPARATE ISSUES. THIS IS WHY IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT THERE ` THE GREENS WILL CONTINUE, AS WE ALWAYS HAVE, TO PRIORITISE CLIMATE CHANGE. THIS WILL ALSO MAKE SURE IT'S EASIER FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING THE MOST. THE WEATHER WE'VE GOT RIGHT NOW ` WHAT IS IT, 1.3 DEGREES? IMAGINE IT AT TWO DEGREES OR THREE DEGREES. THE LOWEST-INCOME HOUSEHOLDS, DISABLED PEOPLE, COASTAL COMMUNITIES, WILL STRUGGLE THE MOST. WE HAVE TO DO BOTH, AND WE ALWAYS HAVE. MARAMA DAVIDSON THERE. E WHAI AKE NEI ` COMING UP ` GARETH HUGHES, DR LARA GREAVES AND BRIGITTE MORTEN DISCUSS STUART NASH'S POLITICAL STUMBLE ON THE PANEL. PLUS, AN ACT MP, A BRUSH WITH DEATH AND LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT ` IT'S GOTTA BE 'BACKSTORY'. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER GREEN MP GARETH HUGHES, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AT VICTORIA UNIVERSITY DR LARA GREAVES, AND BARRISTER BRIGITTE MORTEN, A DIRECTOR OF FRANKS OGILVIE LAW. TENA KOUTOU ` WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME, EVERYBODY, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. STUART NASH IS ON A FINAL, FINAL WARNING. BRIGITTE, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HOW THE PM HANDLED THIS THIS WEEK? I THINK REALLY SHOWS A LACK OF CREDIBILITY, BECAUSE HE CAME OUT STRONG OUT OF THE STOCKS, EVERYBODY SAID 'THIS IS DIFFERENT PM TO THE PREVIOUS ONE WE HAD.' HE HOLDS PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT, AND THEN HE ABSOLUTELY DID NOT. I DON'T THINK ANYONE CARES ABOUT A DEMOTION IN RANKING; THAT MEANS NOTHING. HE HASN'T LOST STAFF, OR SALARY. HE JUST HAS LESS WORK TO DO. BUT THE PRIME MINISTER'S POINT, LARA, IS THAT HE WAS NOT DOING IT FOR PERSONAL GAIN, AND SHOULDN'T BE BOOTED OUT OF CABINET. DO YOU BUY THAT? I THINK THAT IS A SOMEWHAT VALID POINT HERE, AND IT SPEAKS TO THE BROADER STRENGTH OF STUART NASH IS THAT HE IS THAT BLOKEY, FRIENDLY KIND OF GUY. BUT THEN YOU SEE THE WEAKNESS HAS BEEN THAT MATE SHIP OVERRIDING THE CABINET MANUAL. (CHUCKLES) CAN WE TRUST THAT HE WON'T DO IT AGAIN, GARETH? HE'S A THREE-TIMER, RIGHT? HE TRIED TO LOOK TOUGH ON CRIME, AND IN THE END, HE PUNCHED HIMSELF IN THE FACE, AND DAMAGED HIS BOSS ACCIDENTALLY AT THE SAME TIME. LOOK, I THINK HE IS LUCKY TO STILL BE IN CABINET. CLEARLY, HE IS AT FAULT HERE, THREE TIMES, BUT REALLY, THIS IS A QUESTION FOR CHRIS HIPKINS' JUDGEMENT. NOT ONLY HAS NASH CLEARLY HAS NOT USED HIS JUDGEMENT, COMMITTED THE SIN OF HURTING HIS BOSS, TAKING ALL THE OXYGEN OUT OF A $2bn SOCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT THIS WEEK. IF SOMETHING ELSE COMES OUT, IT WILL BE A QUESTION OF HIPKINS' JUDGEMENT, THAT HE IS STILL THERE. HIPKINS HAS TO BE CONFIDENT THAT NASH DOES NOT HAVE ANOTHER ONE ON THE BACK BURNER. BASED ON THIS WEEK, I WOULDN'T HAVE THAT CONFIDENCE. ON POLICY, WE JUST SAW REBECCA'S INTERVIEW WITH THE PRIME MINISTER. HE DIDN'T REALLY ADMIT THAT LABOUR TOOK ITS EYE OFF THE BALL WITH COST OF LIVING LAST YEAR. HE DIDN'T GO THERE, AND REBECCA PUSHED HIM ON THAT. IN TERMS OF QUESTIONING HIM AND PUSHING HIM, IT DOES SEEM AS THOUGH` LIKE VOTERS DO SEE THAT LABOUR HAS TURNED OVER A BIT OF A NEW LEAF. SO GOING BACK IN THE PAST, I AM NOT SURE HOW PEOPLE REALLY CARE THAT MUCH NOW, BECAUSE IT DOES FEEL LIKE LABOUR HAS TRIED TO SEVER THAT TIE, AND MOVE FORWARD. IT IS RIGHT TO QUESTION HIM, BUT I THINK IN VOTERS' EYES, THEY MIGHT HAVE MADE A REASONABLE-ISH CLEAN SLATE. THEY TRIED TO MAKE THE BREAK, WITH A NEW PM, BUT CAN WE BELIEVE THE PRIME MINISTER ` HE WAS PART OF THAT CABINET, HE HAS COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY, DOESN'T HE? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THE PROBLEM YOU'VE GOT WHICH WAS CLEAR IN THE INTERVIEW, IS THAT HE IS SAYING, 'WE ARE FOCUSING ON BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES. 'WHAT IS BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES? 'EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT WHAT WE WERE DOING PREVIOUSLY. 'WE CLEARLY HAD THE WRONG FOCUS PREVIOUSLY.' I DON'T THINK IT IS RIGHT TO SAY THAT PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED PREVIOUSLY, BECAUSE PEOPLE DO BLAME THEIR HIGH MORTGAGE RATES, WHAT THEY PAY AT THE SUPERMARKET, ON THE GOVERNMENT'S ACTIONS, AND THEY ARE GOING TO SEE THAT GOING INTO THE ELECTION. HE IS A BREAD AND BUTTER PM BY HIS OWN LABELLING AND BRANDING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HAS PUT THE BONFIRE TO SOME CLIMATE POLICIES FOR THE SAKE OF BEING A BREAD AND BUTTER PM. IS THAT THE RIGHT FOCUS? I THINK IT IS STAGGERING, PARTICULARLY AFTER THESE CATASTROPHIC WEATHER EVENTS, WHICH NIWA SAYS ARE 20% TO 30% MORE RAINFALL BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE. INDIVIDUALLY, NONE OF THESE PROJECTS ADD UP TO MUCH, BUT COLLECTIVELY, THEY DO. WE SEE A HOLE IN THE CLIMATE BUDGET, A COLLAPSE IN THE CARBON MARKET, WITH AN AUCTION FAILURE, SO CONFIDENCE HAS BEEN DAMAGED ON NEW ZEALAND'S RESPONSE. ON THE GREENS, GARETH, I THOUGHT IT WAS A MUTED RESPONSE FROM THEM THIS WEEK. WOULD YOU EXPECT THEM TO BE HOWLING FROM THE PARAPETS ABOUT THIS? THEIR PRESS RELEASE WAS THE WRITTEN EQUIVALENT TO A SHRUG OF THEIR SHOULDERS, SAYING, 'IF WE WERE IN THE ROOM, WE WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.' WHY HAVE THEY DONE THAT? I THINK THEY ARE TOO CONSCIOUS OF NOT ROCKING TRYING TO ROCK THE BOAT. NO ONE IS EXPECTING THEM TO DECLARE WAR ON LABOUR, BUT I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO SEE SOME PASSION, A BIT OF FIRE, PARTICULARLY ON THEIR CORE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE. HAVE THEY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES ON THE LEFT, AND GARNER SOME NEW VOTES, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN STRONGER ON THAT PART? YEAH, SO THEY ARE BACKED INTO A SIMILAR CORNER AS ACT WITH NATIONAL. IT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE LABOUR AND THE GREENS; HE GREENS WILL NOT GO WITH NATIONAL ` WE TALK ABOUT THIS EVERY ELECTION. COME ON, DO WE HAVE TO AGAIN? THEY HAVE THIS AWKWARD SITUATION WHERE THEY NEED TO BUDDY UP TO LABOUR, BUT ALSO DIFFERENTIATE THEMSELVES. IT IS A BALANCING ACT, AND EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION ON WHETHER THAT IS THE RIGHT THING ` THEIR ACTIVIST CORE, VERSUS THE PERSON WHO IS SORT OF LABOUR, SORT OF GREEN; THOSE OPINIONS WILL VARY. DO YOU THINK THE BONFIRE OF POLICIES WILL WORK FOR THE ELECTORATE? I THINK IT HAS WORKED OVER THE LAST MONTH OR SO. PEOPLE WANTED TO GET RID OF THOSE THINGS, LIKE A SOCIAL INSURANCE SCHEME, THE TVNZ-RNZ MERGER, ALL OF THOSE THINGS. GETTING THEM OFF THE PLATE, I THINK THAT WILL ABSOLUTELY WORK FOR THEM. BUT THEY HAVE TO FILL IN THAT GAP SOMEHOW. THAT'S RIGHT, SO WHAT'S NEXT IS THE QUESTION. GIVING MONEY PURELY TO LOW INCOMES WILL NOT BE ENOUGH. MOST OF THAT HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP ALREADY BY THE INFLATIONARY PRESSURE OF THE LAST YEAR OR SO. REBECCA ASKED ABOUT WHAT'S NEXT, AND HE SAID, COST OF LIVING, THERE MIGHT BE MORE FOR STRUGGLING KIWIS, AND MAYBE AN INDICATION THAT HIGH-WEALTH INDIVIDUALS MAY BE TARGETED. GARETH, DID YOU TAKE THAT FROM THERE? POTENTIALLY. THE BUDGET WILL BE A MAJOR OPPORTUNITY TO DECLARE WHAT IS NEXT. YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND IN POLITICS, AND ACTUALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO. IT IS EASY TO CUT. THEY HAVE NOW FREED UP CASH. THEY HAVE REMOVED THE PERCEPTION OF DISTRACTIONS, BUT EVERYONE IS WAITING FOR WHAT IS NEXT. HE SAID SOME OLD POLICIES AND CURRENT POLICIES ARE GOOD POLICIES. IS HE OPENING HIMSELF UP THERE FOR THE OPPOSITION TO SAY, 'LOOK, NO NEW POLICIES, THEY HAVE NO NEW IDEAS.' WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR CLEARLY ARTICULATED VISIONS FROM LABOUR AND NATIONAL. IT'S LIKE, NATIONAL ` 'WE'RE NOT LABOUR,'; LABOUR ` 'WE'RE NOT NATIONAL.' THAT IS NOT PARTICULARLY INSPIRING, IS IT? ARE THEY BOTH JUST FIGHTING, 'LET'S NOT DO ANYTHING BOLD,' FIGHTING OVER THE CENTRE GROUND NOW? THERE IS DEFINITELY A FIGHT FOR THE CENTRE; THERE ALWAYS IS, BUT THAT IS DEMOCRACY. PEOPLE VOTE ON WHAT MATTERS TO THEM. I THINK LABOUR HAS THE MAJOR ISSUE THAT THEY DON'T HAVE A RECORD OF ACHIEVEMENT. GOING FOR A THIRD TERM, THEY NEED TO SHOW THEY HAVE ACHIEVED SOMETHING OVER THE LAST TWO TERMS, AND THAT THEY HAVE SOME OF THAT VISION. AT THE MOMENT, YOU NEED TO BE LOOKING BEYOND JUST, 'WHO ARE WE GOING TO TAX, WHO ARE WE GOING TO GIVE MORE MONEY TO?' WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO BRING BACK UP OUR EDUCATION SECTOR? WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO IN THE HEALTH SECTOR BEYOND CHANGING THE LETTERHEADS? THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WILL BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT. AT THE SAME TIME, THEY HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT IS TANKING AT THE MOMENT, WORSE THAN EXPECTED, AND MORE THAN LIKELY, WE WILL HAVE A TECHNICAL RECESSION NEXT QUARTER. THAT'LL MAKE IT TOUGH FOR THEM TO BRING OUT BROAD POLICY AND FAR-REACHING POLICY. 0.6 IS NOT REALLY TANKING ` WE HAVE RECORD HIGH EMPLOYMENT ` BUT WE HAVE ALL THESE CHALLENGES, AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE HEARD CHILD POVERTY BEING MENTIONED? PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR WHAT IS NEXT. WE'RE STILL AN UNEQUAL SOCIETY WITH AN UNFAIR TAX SYSTEM, SO THERE IS PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITY TO ANNOUNCE POLICIES THAT WILL MATERIALLY MAKE PEOPLE'S LIVES BETTER, AND HOPEFULLY, IN THE CLIMATE SPACE AS WELL, BECAUSE WE UNFORTUNATELY TREAT THE NATIONAL BUDGET NOT AS SERIOUSLY AS WE TREAT THE CARBON BUDGET. THERE A PLENTY OF WIN-WIN SOLUTIONS THERE. I WANT TO TALK QUICKLY ABOUT THE OPPOSITION. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON THIS WEEK, BUT COVID GOT IN THE WAY. NICOLA WILLIS STEPPED UP; HOW DID SHE GO? I THINK SHE DID REALLY WELL, IT WAS A STRONG PERFORMANCE, BUT IT GOES TO THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TRYING HARD SINCE THE LAST ELECTION TO SHOW THAT THEY HAVE STRONG LEADERSHIP ACROSS THE TEAM, NOT JUST IN ONE LEADER, AND I THINK THAT WAS ON SHOW. THE GREENS HAD A POLL BUMP THIS WEEK. CAN THEY CAPITALISE ON THAT? YEAH, WE HAVE SEEN IN DIFFERENT ELECTION STUDIES ` THE ATTITUDES AND VALUES STUDY, ALL OF THAT ` IS THAT OVER TIME, MORE KIWIS ARE CARING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE. ALL THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT PEOPLE THINK THE GREENS ARE BEST PLACED TO DEAL WITH THAT, AND THAT'S WHAT THAT BUMP WAS. IT COULD BE THAT TE PATI MAORI ACTUALLY HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER. THE GREENS SHOULDN'T TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED. THEY NEED TO CONSTANTLY FIGHT FOR IT, THEY NEED TO SHOW VOTERS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO, AND THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH LEVERAGE THIS TERM. THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF GREEN-WASHING THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, BUT LABOUR WILL NEED THEM IN THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, SO I EXPECT THEM SOME TIME SOON TO START LAYING OUT THEIR BOTTOM LINES. THEY KEEP SAYING, 'WITH MORE GREENS, WE WILL DO MORE THINGS.' THEY NEED TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT THEY WILL DO. IN THAT SPEECH TOMORROW, WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS. AND FINALLY, I AM GOING TO BRING DOWN THE TONE OF A BIT. WHAT HAPPENS TO A POLITICIAN WHEN THEY'RE OUT OF POLITICS ` JAMI-LEE ROSS IS NOW REPORTEDLY RUNNING AN ESCORT SERVICE. THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY SAD SITUATION FOR THE WORKERS, IN THAT HIS HISTORY WITH ABUSE OF WOMEN, AND ALL THOSE ALLEGATIONS. SOME PEOPLE MAKE A JOKE OUT OF IT, BUT IT IS ALSO REALLY SAD WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES, YEAH. I THINK WE WILL LEAVE IT RIGHT THERE. THANK YOU TO THE PANEL ` GARETH, LARA, AND BRIGITTE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, WHERE WE TAKE A RARE LOOK INTO THE PERSONAL LIVES OF OUR MPs. THIS WEEK, ACT MP SIMON COURT INVITED US INTO HIS HOME AND GARDEN TO HEAR HIS STORY, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH A BRUSH WITH DEATH AND LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT. HERE HE IS. I WAS BORN IN SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA. I'VE GOT A LITTLE SISTER, WHO'S VERY, VERY DEAR TO ME. SHE'S A COUPLE OF YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME. WHEN I WAS IN MY EARLY 20s, I GOT A VERY SEVERE STRAIN OF MENINGITIS, AND IT WAS MY SISTER WHO WORKED OUT HOW SICK I WAS AND GOT ME TO HOSPITAL IN TIME SO THAT I WAS SAVED. WELL, I WOKE UP ONE MORNING WITH A SEVERE HEADACHE, AND I COULD HARDLY SPEAK, AND, UM, MY FATHER ACTUALLY TOOK ME TO THE DOCTOR ` I COULDN'T MAKE IT THERE MYSELF ` AND I WAS SENT HOME AND TOLD TO TAKE SOME PANADOL. WELL, LATER THAT EVENING, WHEN MY SISTER WAS HOME, SHE RECOGNISED THAT I WAS VERY, VERY ILL ` MY SKIN HAD TURNED BLACK AND BLUE. I REMEMBER, UM, BEING GIVEN A SHOT OF PENICILLIN BY A DOCTOR WHO SAID, 'THIS IS PROBABLY THE BEST CHANCE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE. GOOD LUCK.' AND THEN I WAS IN AN AMBULANCE, AND THE NEXT THING I REMEMBER IS COMING OUT OF A COMA ABOUT THREE WEEKS LATER IN AUCKLAND HOSPITAL IN THEIR INTENSIVE CARE UNIT. IT WAS ABOUT SIX MONTHS OF REHABILITATION AND RECOVERY. I LOST ABOUT 30 KILOS, AND I COULD BARELY WALK, SO, YEAH, IT WAS QUITE A STRUGGLE TO COME BACK FROM THAT PHYSICALLY. I THINK THAT ONCE YOU'VE COME VERY CLOSE TO DEATH, THERE ARE THINGS THAT TAKE ON MUCH MORE IMPORTANCE IN LIFE ` IT'S RELATIONSHIPS WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS; IT'S IDENTIFYING THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO DO ` AND NOT WASTE TIME, BECAUSE YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE AS MUCH TIME AS YOU THINK; FOR ME, IT'S ACTUALLY CREATING A PLACE THAT I LIKE TO COME BACK TO AND LIVE IN EVERY DAY, WHICH IS THE GARDEN WE'RE SITTING IN NOW. I HAVE A SAFE, COMFORTABLE HOME THAT'S A REAL PARADISE TO COME BACK TO. THIS IS MY PARTNER, CAROL. CAROL AND I WERE INTRODUCED BY A DEAR FRIEND WHO SAID, 'DO YOU MIND IF I BRING A FRIEND ALONG FOR A DRINK? 'SHE'S A BIT QUIRKY.' LAUGHS: YES, WELL... I THOUGHT HE WAS LOOKING PAST ME. I WAS LIKE, 'HE MUST BE MEETING SOMEONE.' I WAS ABOUT TO TURN AROUND. IT WAS LIKE OUR ENERGIES JUST WENT, 'OH.' YEAH, MY FRIEND DEFINITELY DIDN'T THINK WE WERE GONNA GET ALONG, BUT IT WAS PRETTY INSTANT. YOU KNOW, YOU WATCH... THAT TRUE LOVE STUFF, OR LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT ` IT CAN HAPPEN. SHE WATCHES A LOT OF THOSE PROGRAMMES ON TV. OH, SORRY. IT'S TERRIBLE. YEAH. I LISTEN TO POLITICS AND WATCH, UM, YEAH, REALITY TV. VERY BALANCED LIKE THAT. YEAH. YEAH. I STARTED BEING INVOLVED AND INTERESTED IN POLITICS SINCE THE AGE OF 16, UH, COS I WANTED TO SAVE THE WORLD, AND, UM... SHE HAS, PRETTY MUCH. YEAH, YEAH. I` DID YOU NOTICE? YEAH. CAROL'S SOMEONE WHO I RELY ON FOR HER INSIGHTS QUITE HEAVILY, BUT SHE'S ALSO BEEN VERY SWEET TO MY BOYS, BECAUSE I WAS SEPARATED AT THE TIME, AND THAT CAN BE QUITE DIFFICULT, WHEN A NEW PERSON COMES INTO YOUR LIFE, BUT ALL OF MY BOYS FELL IN LOVE WITH HER. MY OLDEST BOY, OSCAR, HE'S A KEEN SNOWBOARDER, AND HE NOW WORKS AS A MECHANIC AT A GARAGE IN WEST AUCKLAND. MY MIDDLE BOY, CHARLES, HE'S WORKING AT A HIPSTER PIZZA JOINT IN WEST AUCKLAND, AND MY YOUNGEST SON, LOUIS, HAS DOWN SYNDROME. LOUIS GOES TO SCHOOL IN A SATELLITE CLASS AT A MAINSTREAM SCHOOL. LOUIS IS A KEEN SKIER, HE PLAYS FOOTBALL, HE COMPETES IN SPECIAL OLYMPICS SWIMMING, AND I'M VERY PROUD OF HIM, BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THINGS ARE HARDER FOR HIM ` BOTH PHYSICALLY AND WITH SPEECH AND LANGUAGE ` HE NEVER GIVES UP, HE TRIES HARD, AND HE ALWAYS WANTS TO COME ALONG ON A RIDE ALONG WITH DAD WHEREVER WE GO. ALTHOUGH THIS BILL HAS... BECOMING AN MP HAS SHOWN ME THAT NEW ZEALANDERS CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THAT THEIR COMMUNITIES SUCCEED OR NOT ` IF THEY'RE PREPARED TO PUT THE EFFORT IN. COS IF WE ALL TRY, WE CAN SHARE IDEAS, COME UP WITH THE BEST IDEAS AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE SUCCESS OF NEW ZEALAND IN THE FUTURE. SIMON COURT. I ALWAYS LIKE TO GET TO KNOW OUR MPs A LITTLE BIT BETTER. IT IS AMAZING WHAT YOU CAN FIND OUT ABOUT THEM IN THEIR BACKSTORIES. DITCHED POLICIES, A POLICE MINISTER WITH MISSION CREEP AND BAD ECONOMIC NEWS ` ALL PERFECT OPPOSITION FODDER, EXCEPT COVID KEPT CHRISTOPHER LUXON AT HOME, SO HIS DEPUTY STEPPED UP. HERE'S FINN HOGAN WITH THE WEEK THAT WAS IN WELLINGTON. WELL, OF COURSE, ONE STORY WAS RINGING OUT LOUDEST ACROSS THE CHAMBER THIS WEEK. WHAT WE SAW TODAY WAS A DISGRACEFUL EPISODE WHERE THE MINISTER OF POLICE, STUART NASH, WAS FORCED TO RESIGN. YES, STUART NASH OUT AS POLICE MINISTER, DEMOTED IN CABINET, AND HIS TEMPORARY REPLACEMENT WASN'T EXACTLY RUSHING TO HIS DEFENCE. SOMEONE HERE CLEARLY EXERCISED AN ERROR OF JUDGEMENT. THEY DID SOMETHING THAT WASN'T CORRECT, AND THERE HAS BEEN A CONSEQUENCE. BUT HIPKINS WAS ON SURER FOOTING WHEN IT CAME TO BACKING LABOUR'S FINANCIAL RECORD FOLLOWING THIS WEEK'S GRIM GDP FIGURES. WOULDN'T IT JUST BE MORE EFFICIENT TO ADOPT NATIONAL'S POLICY PROGRAMME? IT'D BE INTERESTING TO KNOW WHAT NATIONAL'S TAX POLICY ACTUALLY IS, BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO CHANGE EVERY TIME NICOLA WILLIS DOES AN INTERVIEW ON IT. ONE PERSON WHO DEFINITELY HAS HIS TAX POLICY IN PLACE, DAVID SEYMOUR, WAS ALSO TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE GRIM ECONOMIC FIGURES TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS. DID THE PRIME MINISTER NOTICE THAT HE LEFT OUT OF THAT LIST PEOPLE WHO RELY ON ACTUALLY WORKING FOR AN INCOME TO PAY THEIR BILLS IN A COST OF LIVING CRISIS? BECAUSE IF HE DIDN'T, THEY SURE WILL. THAT ONCE AGAIN HIGHLIGHTS THE DISDAIN PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HOUSE HAVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE MINIMUM WAGE. THEY DON'T SEEM TO THINK THAT THEY WORK FOR A LIVING. WELL, AT LEAST THERE'S ONE MP WHO'LL BE WORKING VERY HARD FOR HIS REMAINING MINISTERIAL WAGES. HOW LONG HE KEEPS THEM REMAINS TO BE SEEN. IT DOES INDEED. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI. SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTION BY KATE HARRIS AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023