CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND SEAN LYDIARD. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` AS THE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCES OPTIONS FOR A SECOND AUCKLAND HARBOUR CROSSING. THE OPPOSITION TURNS ITS ATTENTION TO ELECTRIFYING NZ. WE NEED TO DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY THAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY. THEN, WE ASK IF THE GOVERNMENT'S INTEGRITY IS UNDER THREAT? SO THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER FOR THOSE GENTLEMEN; NO BENEFIT FOR ME IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM; ONLY A SOLUTION. AND THEN THE FIERY REACTION TO DONALD TRUMP'S INDICTMENT ON CRIMINAL CHARGES. I THINK YOU'RE ABLE TO SEE THAT WE HAVE PASSED THE POINT OF NO RETURN, HAVEN'T WE? OR, IF YOU WANT TO USE ANOTHER ANALOGY, WE'VE CROSSED THE RUBICON. WE'LL HAVE THAT STORY SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE OPPOSITION'S FIRST SIGNIFICANT FORAY INTO CLIMATE-CHANGE POLICIES AHEAD OF OCTOBER'S ELECTION. NATIONAL PARTY LEADER CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS ANNOUNCED A NEW POLICY TO TRY AND FAST-TRACK CONSENTING AROUND PROJECTS THAT SHOULD SUBSTANTIALLY INCREASE OUR CAPACITY TO GENERATE RENEWABLE ENERGY, SOMETHING ALL PARTIES AGREE IS CRITICAL FOR A LOW EMISSIONS FUTURE. AS PRIME MINISTER, JACINDA ARDERN ANNOUNCED A TARGET OF GENERATING 100% OF NEW ZEALAND ELECTRICITY FROM RENEWABLES, BY 2030 ` A GOAL THAT PM CHRIS HIPKINS BACKS. THESE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO TO REDUCE OUR EMISSIONS ` MAKING SURE WE'RE USING MORE RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY, SO THAT WHEN YOU DO PLUG IN YOUR ELECTRIC VEHICLE, IT'S COMING FROM A SUSTAINABLE SOURCE. BUT EXPERTS SAY HITTING THE TARGET IS POTENTIALLY TRICKY BECAUSE RENEWABLES ARE DEPENDENT ON CONDITIONS ` SOLAR POWER DOESN'T REALLY WORK AT NIGHT WHEN ELECTRICITY REQUIREMENTS SPIKE; DROUGHTS MEAN THAT WATER DOESN'T FLOW THROUGH HYDRO-DAMS; AND IF THE WIND DROPS, TURBINES DON'T TURN. THAT'S LEFT THE GOVERNMENT CONSIDERING THE MASSIVE LAKE ONSLOW PROJECT ` IT'S EFFECTIVELY A GIANT WATER STORAGE BATTERY, DESIGNED TO BRIDGE OUR ELECTRICITY SUPPLY THROUGH DIFFICULT PERIODS. BUT THE POTENTIAL COST OF THAT ARE MASSIVELY EXPANDING, BEFORE CONSTRUCTION EVEN BEGINS. A DETAILED BUSINESS CASE IS UNDERWAY, BUT THE LATEST FORECASTS SUGGEST LAKE ONSLOW IS LIKELY TO COST ALMOST $16B. HYDRO, GEOTHERMAL, WIND, SOLAR ` BETWEEN THEM, RENEWABLE ENERGY SOURCES MAKE UP ABOUT 80% OF THE ELECTRICITY GENERATED IN NZ. A LARGE PART OF NATIONAL'S POLICY FOCUSES ON SPEEDING UP CONSENTING PROCEDURES UNDER THE RMA. INFRASTRUCTURE SPOKESPERSON CHRIS BISHOP IS WITH US. GOOD MORNING. THIS IS TECHNICAL STUFF BUT IT IS ESSENTIAL. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM YOU'RE TRYING TO SOLVE? WE WANT THE MASS ELECTRIFICATION OF THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY. WE ARE SO WELL-PLACED IN NEW ZEALAND. WE HAVE THE BEST WIND IN THE WORLD, . WE HAVE HYDROPOWER WHICH IS POWERED NEW ZEALAND FOR DECADES WE HAVE GREAT GEOTHERMAL RESOURCE. THE ABILITY FOR NEW ZEALAND TO ELECTRICITY FROM RENEWABLE GENERATION IS AMAZING. LET'S DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF RENEWABLE GENERATION FLAT WE HAVE AND CONVERT WHOLE SWATHES OF THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY TO ELECTRIFICATION, WHICH WILL LOWER OUR EMISSIONS, BUT ALSO GROW OUR ECONOMY. ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND NEW ZEALAND ARE AMAZING BECAUSE WHEN YOU PLUG YOUR CAR IN OVERNIGHT, YOU PUT WIND AND SOLAR POWER TO SOME EXTENT AND GEOTHERMAL POWER INTO MY CAR. IN AUSTRALIA WHEN YOU DRIVE AN EV, YOU ARE REPLACING COAL WITH PETROL, SO YOU ARE NOT GAINING MUCH. THEY ARE CHEAPER TO RUN IN NEW ZEALAND AND WE WILL DO MORE THAN THAT. HOW WILL YOUR POLICY WILL ACHIEVE THAT? THE BARRIER AT THE MOMENT IS THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT. A WINDFARM THAT WE VISITED THIS WEEK, TWO YEARS TO BUILD, EIGHT YEARS TO BE CONSENTED. THE POWER STATION BUILT IN THE 1950S IN NEW ZEALAND, PROVIDING BASELINE POWER FOR DECADES TOOK SEVEN YEARS TO RECONSIDER. THE RMA AS A STUMBLING BLACK. IT IS NOT JUST NATIONAL THAT SAYS THAT. THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING THROUGH SOME RMA REFORMS. IT WILL MAKE IT WORSE. CONTACT ENERGY SAID THE SINGLE BIGGEST BARRIER TO DECARBONISE AND NEW ZEALAND IS THE RMA BECAUSE OF UNCERTAINTY. RESOURCE CONSENT ONE YEAR FROM WOE TO GO. WHEN YOU APPLY TO THE DECISION SHOULD BE ONE YEAR. YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE 35 YEAR CONSENTS. THAT IS A BIG BARRIER. LABOUR WANTED TO BE 10 YEARS. NO ALPHA CITY GENERATOR IS GOING TO INVEST IN TURBINES AND WINDFARMS IF THEY CAN ONLY GET IT FOR 10 YEARS. I HAVE GONE THROUGH THE POLICY. THIS WOULDN'T APPLY TO NEW HYDROPOWER STATIONS. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE WINDFARMS, SOLAR FARMS. THE REASON FOR THAT IS HYDRO IS ENVIRONMENTALLY TRICKY. WE ARE SAYING OR YOU HYDRO, WHICH THERE IS A ROLE, ONE YEAR IS UNREALISTIC. YOU WANT TO DOUBLE GENERATION. AT THE MOMENT, PRIVATE INDUSTRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR GENERATING ELECTRICITY IN NEW ZEALAND. YOU WANT THAT TO REMAIN THE SAME. IN THE FUTURE, WOULD NATIONAL EXPECT NEW ZEALAND TO GENERATE SURPLUS ELECTRICITY? IN THE SENSE OF OVER AND ABOVE WHAT WE NEED FOR OUR CURRENT ELECTRICITY, BECAUSE WE WANT WHOLE SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY TO TRANSITION. YOU WANT TO DOUBLE IT. PAGE 70 OF YOUR POLICY, CONSUMERS AND BUSINESSES WILL BENEFIT FROM LOWER FUEL PRICES. WHY WOULD A COMPANY WANT TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY IN A FLOODED MARKET? IT AS A COMPARISON TO THE BASE. IT IS OVERALL HOUSEHOLD ENERGY. WITH THE CONVERSION OF CARS TO ELECTRIC CARS AND ALL THE PROJECTIONS ARE BY 2050, THERE WILL BE BILLIONS ON THE ROAD. HOUSEHOLD RUNNING COSTS, ENERGY COSTS WILL BE LOWER, BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL BE USING ELECTRIC CARS RATHER THAN PETROL POWERED CARS. RUNNING COSTS OF AN EV IS $0.40. PETROL PRICE IS $2.50; $0.40 TO RUN AN EV. HOUSEHOLD ENERGY COST WILL BE LOWER. 10% BY 2030. 45% BY 2050 IN NET TERMS FOR HOUSEHOLDS. THAT IS A HUGE SAVING. RENEWABLE ENERGY IS THE CHEAPEST FORM OF ENERGY. WE NEED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. I WANT TO THROW SOME NAMES THAT YOU. MOUNT CASS, CENTRAL. CASTLE HILL, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THOSE NAMES HAVE IN COMMON? THEY ARE WINDFARMS THAT ARE CONSENTED NOW. BUT AREN'T BEING BUILT. YOU SAY THE CONSENTING IS THE ISSUE. THOSE FARMS AREN'T BEING BUILT. DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY ARE NOT BEING BUILT? THERE IS A RANGE OF REASONS. DO NOT DEAL WITH THOSE? THERE WILL BE A RANGE OF DIFFERENT REASONS. SOME OF THEM WILL BE CONSENTED BUT NOT ECONOMIC TO BUILD YET. THAT IS WHAT GENERATORS DO; THEY CONSENT A LOT OF THINGS. YOU HAVE TOLD ME THE PROBLEM IS THE ECONOMICS AROUND THE CONSENTING, NOT BUILDING. MANY CONSENTED PROJECTS ARE CURRENTLY ON HOLD AS THE DEVELOPER WAITS FOR ALLERGENICITY TO INCREASE. IT ISN'T IN THE COMMERCIAL INTERESTS OF THE GENERATORS TO BUILD THESE. THE WAY THE GENERATION MARKET WORKS AS PEOPLE GO AROUND, COMPANIES GO AROUND AND CONSENT A LOT OF THINGS. WE WANT MORE CONSENTS; WE WANT MORE EXPLORATION. YOUR WHOLE CRITICISM OF THE RMA AS THEY ARE NOT BEING CONSIDERED FAST ENOUGH AND THAT'S WHY WE DO NOT HAVE RENEWABLE ENERGY. THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF PLACES BEING CONSIDERED AND NOT BUILT. WE WANT OPTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THE GENERATION PORTFOLIOS THAT COMPANIES LOOK AT. DEMAND GROWTH IN NEW ZEALAND HAS BEEN FLAT FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS BECAUSE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY, INSTALLATION PROMOTED INTO HOUSEHOLDS. DEMAND FOR ELECTRICITY IS FORECAST TO RISE RAPIDLY IN THE NEXT 30 YEARS. HOW WOULD YOU INCENTIVISE THAT? IN TERMS OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES? IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THIS TRANSITION, AT THE MOMENT WE ARE BEING INCENTIVISED TO USE OUR CARS AND PETROL EVEN MORE BECAUSE OF THE EXCISE TAX CUT. IN WHAT WAY WOULD YOU INCENTIVISE EV'S? THE MARKET AND BASIC ECONOMICS DICTATES THAT ELECTRICITY DEMAND WILL RISE BECAUSE AS THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME AND PETROL PRICE GOES UP, THE NATURAL INCENTIVE WILL BE FOR PEOPLE TO TRANSITION TO EV'S. TRANS POWER SAYS BY 2050, 70%. INCREASE IN ALLERGENICITY DEMAND HOW DO WE MEET THAT DEMAND? OUR ARGUMENT AS WE NEED TO MAKE IT A LOT EASIER TO MEET THAT DEMAND FROM RENEWABLE, GENERATION SOURCES NOT COAL AND GAS. RENEWABLES ARE CHEAPEST, LEASE COST AND WE CAN GROW THE ECONOMY AND CUT EMISSIONS. WE HAVE A PERFECT SITUATION FOR NEW ZEALAND. KNOWN AS DISPUTING INCREASING THE SUPPLY OF RENEWABLE ENERGY IS ESSENTIAL. YOU HAVE TO RAISE BOTH OF THOSE ARMS AT THE SAME TIME. YOU HAVE TO GO INCREASE DEMAND AND SUPPLY. THERE IS NO POINT IN INCREASING ONE OF THE OTHER ISN'T THERE TO MEET IT. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO INCENTIVISE DEMAND IN THE SHORT TERM? WE HAVE MORE TO SAY AND ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEFORE THE ELECTION. YOU OPPOSED THE KILLING CARD DISCOUNT AND UPGRADE. CAN YOU GUARANTEE BEFORE THE ELECTION YOU WILL HAVE SOME SORT OF POLICY THAT INCENTIVISES THE UPTAKE OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES? YOU WILL SEE WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEFORE THE ELECTION. WE SUPPORT THE CLINKER STANDARD, WHICH IS ACHIEVABLE. WE SUPPORT THE ROLLOUT OF EV CHARGERS. YOU WANT TO DOUBLE THE SUPPLY, WHICH IS MASSIVE. WE'RE EVANGELISTS. WE DRIVE AN EV; WE ARE TO EV FAMILY. WE WANT TO SEE MORE ON THE ROADS. THAT WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE IT IS A LOWER COST. AS THIS NATIONAL OPPOSITION THAT OPPOSES THE CLEAN CARD DISCOUNT AND UP GREAT WE OPPOSE. YOU TAX BECAUSE WE DON'T THINK CHARGING'S FARMERS SEVEN GRAND IS A GOOD IDEA. PEOPLE THAT CAN AFFORD BUYING A TESLA DON'T NEED THE DISCOUNT. IT IS THE CARS AT THE OTHER END OF THE SCALE. WEALTHY PEOPLE BUYING TESLA'S SHOULDN'T GET A SUBSIDY. THAT IS REGRESSIVE AND DUMB. WE OPPOSE IT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO AGREE SUPPLY, YOU NEED TO INCREASED DEMAND. YOU HAVE IT AROUND THE WRONG WAY. . THE DEMAND IS COMING AND SUPPLY MUST FOLLOW NEW ZEALAND MUST DOUBLE ITS GENERATION. WHAT IS THE FIGURE YOU HAVE TO HIT? WE HAVE ABOUT 7000 MW IN THE GREAT, SO DOUBLING IS ABOUT 14,000 MW. WE WANT TO MEET IT FROM SOLAR, WHICH IS AN ECONOMIC BUT IS GROWING MORE ECONOMIC. A LOT OF IT WILL COME FROM WIND. THE MARKET WILL DETERMINE THAT. THA NEW ZEALAND HAS 582 POINTS AND WE NEED THOUSANDS. ALONGSIDE SOLAR, GEOTHERMAL AND HYDRO. ALL OF THOSE WOULD BE CONSENTED WITHIN A YEAR UNDER THIS POLICY. BUT ABOUT COMMUNITIES THAT DON'T WANT THEM? THE COMMUNITIES WILL STILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY THROUGH THE RESOURCE CONSENT PROCESS TO PARTICIPATE. WHEN NOT SAYING THEY SHOULDN'T. WE ARE SAYING THE TIMEFRAME HAS TO BE SHORTER. PARLIAMENT HAS DECLARED A CLIMATE EMERGENCY. NEW ZEALANDERS WANT ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE. THAT MEANS BUILDING THINGS THAT MAKE IT EASIER TO COVER NICE. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH HERE. WINDFARMS HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT. DECARBONISE IN OUR ECONOMY IS IMPERATIVE. THERE ARE LEGAL COMMITMENTS AROUND DECARBONISE. MORALLY FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS AS WELL. WE HAVE TO DO THINGS. THE GOVERNMENT APPROACH OF FLUFFING AROUND AND MAKING IT HARD FOR WINDFARMS HAS TO STOP. A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE WATCHING THINKING HOW WOULD I FEEL IF I HAD A WINDFARM 200 M DOWN THE STREET. IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN. THE FIRST QUESTION IN YOUR KEY ISSUE SEGMENT IS CAN A WINDFARM BE IN INSTALLED NEXT DOOR. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE THE DETAIL NOW? THAT WILL BE SET THROUGH THE NATIONAL POLICY STATEMENT ON REGENERATION THAT WE WILL SET. WE ARE GOING TO MAKE RENEWABLE GENERATION CONTROLLED ACTIVITY THROUGH THE RMA. THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING;L WE CAN DISCUSS THE CONDITIONS UPON WHICH THEY HAPPEN, BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT WHETHER THEY WILL HAPPEN OR NOT. WE ARE GOING TO ARGUE ABOUT THE NOISE, WHERE THEY ARE CITED. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN PRACTICE FOR PEOPLE WHO FEEL CONCERNED AND ANXIOUS ABOUT? THAT MEANS COUNCILS WILL GO THROUGH A PROCESS AND SAY YOU CAN'T BUILD HERE OR HERE, BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO CLOSE TO THE COMMUNITIES, THE NOISE IS TOO GREAT. THIS MIGHT BE A SITE OF BIODIVERSITY, THIS IS A HERITAGE SITE. TAKE THE CENTRAL OTAGO, YOU CAN'T DO IT THERE. THOSE THINGS ARE OUT. ANYWHERE ELSE, HILLY RIDGES WHERE THE WIND BLOWS, WE SHOULD BE USING THEM. IF THE RESOURCE CONSENT PROCESS HASN'T BEEN RESOLVED AFTER A YEAR, IT GETS BUILT? THE CONSENT AS THE ISSUE. THERE IS AN INCENTIVE ON EVERYBODY TO GET ON WITH IT. HOUSING. IN YOUR CAPACITY, NATIONAL'S BIPARTISAN DEAL ON HOUSING DENSITY WITH LABOUR, CAN YOU GUARANTEE NATIONAL WILL GO INTO THE ELECTION WITH A POLICY? WE ARE OPEN TO SENSIBLE CHANGES. WE SIGNED THAT DEAL BECAUSE IT IT REFLECTS OUR VIEW THAT IT HAS BEEN TOO DIFFICULT TO BUILD HOUSES IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS AN ENHANCEMENT OF PROPERTY RIGHTS. PEOPLE CAN SUBDIVIDE, GO UP AND OUT. AS IT STANDS, AS NATIONAL PLANNING TO GO INTO THE ELECTION WITH THAT POLICY? WE WILL GO INTO THE ELECTION WITH A HOUSING POLICY THAT REFLECTS GREATER DENSITY IN CITIES. YOU ARE BACKING AWAY. I AM NOT. WE HAVE ALWAYS SAID WE ARE OPEN TO SENSIBLE CHANGES AROUND IT. YOU HAVE AUCKLAND GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS, CHRISTCHURCH. HAVE CHANGES BEEN PROPOSED THAT YOU ARE CONSIDERING? NO CHANGES HAVE BEEN PROPOSED, CHANGES HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT BY COUNCILS, NO ONE HAS COME TO US AND SAID YOU SHOULD DO A CERTAIN THING. WE ARE MONITORING THE WAY IN WHICH THE COUNCILS ARE APPROACHING IT AND MONITORING COMMUNITY FEEDBACK COMING THROUGH. WE WILL HAVE MORE TO SAY ABOUT HOUSING IN DUE COURSE. THE CANDIDATE SELECTIONS ARE A NOTABLY DIVERSE BUNCH COMPARED TO SOME OTHER RECENT CASES. IS THAT A DELIBERATE EFFORT? WE HAVE WORKED HARD TO TRY AND GET MORE DIVERSITY INTO THE CAUCUS FROM AGENDA POINT OF VIEW AND BACKGROUNDS. CHRISTOPHER LUXTON HAS MADE THAT A KEY PRIORITY AND TALK TO THE BOARD AND COMMITTEES AROUND THAT. WE ARE PROUD OF SOME OF THE TALENT COMING THROUGH. WE HAVE SOME OUTSTANDING CANDIDATES. SOME PEOPLE HAVE RUN BEFORE AND MISSED OUT. SOME OUTSTANDING TALENTED PEOPLE COMING THROUGH. WHEN WILL THE PARTY LIST THE DONE? JUNE OR JULY, POTENTIALLY AUGUST. IT IS COUPLE OF MONTHS OUT FROM THE ELECTION. GOING THROUGH THE ELECTORATES WE HAVE ANNOUNCED CANDIDATES, DIVERSE CANDIDATES ARE IN SEATS NATIONAL WOULD NOT TRADITIONALLY WHEN. ARE THOSE NEW DIVERSE CANDIDATES BEING SET UP TO FAIL? IN ANY OF THOSE CASES, THE LOCAL COMMITTEES CHOSE THOSE CANDIDATES. IT WON'T SURPRISE ANYONE TO LEARN OF THE LIST IS THE ON OPPORTUNITY FOR PARTIES TO MAKE SURE THE CAUCUS MAKES UP THE MAKE-UP OF NEW ZEALAND. SOME OF THOSE CANDIDATES WILL BE WINNABLE LIST POSITIONS AND SOME WON'T. MANY PEOPLE WANT TO BE AN MP; SOME PEOPLE. MISS OUT YOU ARE A BEAST OF THE HORSE RACE AND POLITICS. AS THE CAMPAIGN CHAIR, DO YOU THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY NATIONAL WAS CAUGHT FLAT-FOOTED BY THE CHANGE OF PRIME MINISTER THIS YEAR? THERE HAS BEEN PUBLIC COMMENTARY AROUND THE. IT IS NOT FAIR. CHRIS I KNOW WELL. HE IS NEXT DOOR TO ME, WE ARE SIMILAR AGES AND WENT TO THE SAME INTERMEDIATE SCHOOL. CHRIS HIPKINS IS A STRAIGHT UP GUY, BUT HE HAS BEEN PART OF A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS FAILED FOR FIVE YEARS. OUR EDUCATION RESULTS WERE APPALLING. WHY HAS NATIONAL NOT HAD A GOOD FEW MONTHS IN THE POLLS? YOU CHANGE THE PRIME MINISTER, CHANGE THE LEADER OF A MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY, PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE A LOOK AT IT, IT IS INTERESTING. THE MEDIA ATTENTION GOES ONTO THAT. YOU EXPECT NOTHING LESS FROM THE MOVE TO HIPKINS. THE FLOODS IN AUCKLAND, IN THE CYCLONE AS WELL. QUITE RIGHTLY, WE PULLED BACK AND WEREN'T LOGICAL FOR THAT PERIOD. IT WAS UNWINNABLE FOR US. IF WE CAME UP WITH POLICY ANNOUNCEMENTS, PEOPLE WOULD WONDER WHY YOU WEREN'T FOCUSING ON THE CYCLONE. THAT WAS A CONSCIOUS DECISION? ABSOLUTELY. WHAT IS THE POINT IN ANNOUNCING A POLICY ON HOUSING OR IMMIGRATION, NO POINT IN ANNOUNCING IT WHILE PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH DEATHS AND DESTRUCTION IN THE COUNTRY. PEOPLE ALSO SAID; I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM YOU FROM A WHILE WHERE ARE YOU? VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR OPPOSITION. THE LATEST POLLS SHOWS NATIONAL AT 34%, CHRISTOPHER LUXTON AT 17% PREFERRED BY MINISTER. WHY IS THERE A DISCREPANCY? EARLY DAYS IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. WE HAVE SIX MONTHS TO GO. THERE ARE MANY MONTHS TO GO. PEOPLE WILL START TO THINK ABOUT POLITICS MORE THAN WE GET CLOSER TO THE TIME. HE HAS BEEN PARTY LEADER FOR 18 MONTHS. THERE IS MANY MORE MONTHS TO GO BEFORE THE ELECTION. MY SENSE FROM MY OWN COMMUNITY AS PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO TURN ONTO POLITICS. A LOT OF PEOPLE CAME BY AND SAID GOOD WORK ON THIS AND THAT. WHY IS THERE A DISCREPANCY FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXTON BUT NOT IN THE SAME DISCREPANCY FOR CHRIS? OPPOSITION IS A TOUGH JOB. WE HAVE WORK TO DO IN A PARTY SENSE. CHRISTOPHER IS UP FOR THE FIGHT AS WELL. HE IS WORKING HARD. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE IMPACT OF MONEY AND CONNECTIONS ON NZ POLITICS. WHAT DOES THE STUART NASH SAGA SAY ABOUT INTEGRITY IN GOVERNMENT? STUART NASH WAS SACKED FROM CABINET THIS WEEK AFTER IT WAS REVEALED HE EMAILED PRIVILEGED INFORMATION FROM INSIDE CABINET DISCUSSIONS TO TWO PRIVATE CITIZENS WHO'D BOTH DONATED MONEY TO HIM. WHAT'S MORE, SENIOR STAFF IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE HAD KNOWN ABOUT THE EMAIL, BUT WITHHELD IT FROM A REQUEST MADE UNDER THE OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT. THEY'VE BEEN ACCUSED BY THE OPPOSITION OF A CONSPIRACY, BUT SAY IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE. IT'S MORE THAN JUST A BREACH OF THE CABINET MANUAL AND A HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE TREATMENT OF A DEEPLY EMBARRASSING EMAIL BY THE PM'S OFFICE. JUST TO REITERATE THAT MAIN POINT, PRIVILEGED INFORMATION WAS EMAILED BY A GOVERNMENT MINISTER TO SUPPORTERS WHO'D DONATED THOUSANDS TO HIM. IT'S THE SECOND TIME IN A MATTER OF WEEKS THAT QUESTIONS OF MONEY, ACCESS, CONNECTIONS AND INTEGRITY HAVE BEEN PUT TO THE GOVERNMENT. RECENT REPORTING FROM RNZ'S GUYON ESPINER HAS DETAILED THE CHUMMY RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN LOBBYISTS, POLITICIANS AND POLITICAL STAFFERS. AS IT STANDS, NZ HAS SOME OF THE LOOSEST RULES AND LAWS AMONG DEVELOPED DEMOCRACIES WHEN IT COMES TO LOBBYING. THIS WEEK, WE WENT TO A RANGE OF POLITICAL PARTIES AND ASKED THEM THREE QUESTIONS ` TE PATI MAORI, THE OPPORTUNITIES PARTY AND THE GREENS ALL RESPONDED YES, YES, YES. NATIONAL SUPPORTS A STAND-DOWN PERIOD FOR MINISTERS MOVING INTO LOBBYING AND A REGISTER OF LOBBYISTS, BUT DON'T SEE A PLACE FOR A NEW ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION. ACT SAID NO TO ALL THREE QUESTIONS, SAYING THEY WOULD REDUCE THE PUBLIC'S ACCESS TO POLITICIANS, WHILE NOT REDUCING THE INFLUENCE OF SKILLED LOBBYISTS. NZ FIRST AND LABOUR DIDN'T RESPOND TO OUR QUESTIONS. IT IS, HOWEVER, SOMETHING OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBOURS ARE TACKLING PUBLICLY, WITH AN ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION SET TO BE UP AND RUNNING IN AUSTRALIA IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS. PROFESSOR CHARLES SAMPFORD IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE INSTITUTE FOR GOVERNMENT ETHICS AND LAW AT THE GRIFFITH LAW SCHOOL IN AUSTRALIA. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US, I KNOW THERE IS A BIT OF A DELAY SURVEY WILL TRAIN BE NICE AND CLEAR. HOW DO THE WEIGHT OF NEW ZEALAND'S RECENT EVENTS IMPACT THE PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION OF THE GOVERNMENT'S INTEGRITY? I CAN'T BE SURE OF EXACTLY WHAT RESPONSE IT WILL BE, HOWEVER ONE WOULD EXPECT THE CONFIDENCE AND INTEGRITY OF GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A HIT FROM SEVERAL DIRECTIONS, AND THAT IT IS A WARNING THAT THINGS MAY NOT BE AS GOOD AS THEY SEEM TO BE. THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE OFTEN SEEN, AND AUSTRALIA FOR A LONG TIME, WE THOUGHT THERE WAS NOT A PROBLEM WITH CORRUPTION SO WE DID NOT NEED A COMMISSION, BUT IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE MECHANISMS TO EXAMINE AND PROSECUTE CORRUPTION, THEN IT IS LIKELY TO FESTER UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE. THE SORT OF PROBLEMS THAT YOU ARE HAVING A NOT A TYPICAL FOR DEMOCRACIES, THERE ARE BIG ISSUES OF MONEY IN POLITICS, THERE IS TOO MUCH, AND TRUTH INTO MUCH, THERE IS TOO LITTLE. SOME DEFINITIONS COULD BE HELPFUL HERE, WHAT IS A CORRUPTION? THE MOST COMMON DEFINITION IS THAT CORRUPTION IS THE ABUSE OF ENTRUSTED POWER FOR PERSONAL OR PARTY POLITICAL INTERESTS. NEW ZEALAND PRIDES ITSELF ON RATING HIGHLY ON TRANSPARENCY, WE WERE IN SECOND PLACE IN 2022 ` IS IT REALISTIC TO THINK THAT THERE IS EFFECTIVELY NO CORRUPTION IN NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC SERVICE? OF COURSE, THE CORRUPTION PERCEPTION INDEX, WHICH WE HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK ON, TRYING TO DEVELOP AND IMPROVE ` ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT THINGS IS TO MEASURE CORRUPTION, BECAUSE THOSE WHO ENGAGE IN IT DO NOT WANT TO BE PUBLIC ABOUT IT, AND CORRUPTION STATISTICS EVEN MORE SO ` DON'T FORGET THIS IS A CORRUPTION PERCEPTION INDEX, AND THE PERCEPTION OF CORRUPTION IS BASED UPON THE KNOWLEDGE OF PAST CORRUPTION. BUT IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT CORRUPTION, IT IS ABOUT BUILDING INTEGRITY, IF CORRUPTION IS THE ABUSE OF POWER FOR PERSONAL OR CLINICAL INTEREST, THEN INTEGRITY IS THE USE OF ENTRUSTED POWER, FOR THE PURPOSE WHICH IT HAS BEEN GIVEN. GOVERNMENTAL POWER IN ANY DEMOCRACY, BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE, WE ENTRUST POLITICIANS WITHOUT POWER, AND THERE IS OBVIOUSLY ATTEMPT TO ABUSE IT FOR POLITICAL INTEREST. THE PROBLEMS YOU ARE HAVING A NOT ATYPICAL AND DEVELOPED DEMOCRACIES, AND THERE IS OFTEN A DECREE OF COMPLACENCY THAT COMES IN, AND THESE MECHANISMS CAN BE USEFUL BECAUSE THEY CHALLENGE COMPLACENCY, AND CAN BE A REASON FOR GOVERNMENT TO STEP IN AND ENGAGE IN A RANGE OF INTEGRITY MEASURES. I EMPHASISE, IT IS NOT JUST THE MATTER OF AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION, THERE ARE ISSUES OF MINISTERIAL CODES, LOBBYING AND STAFFERS, POST POLITICAL EMPLOYMENT, THE DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION... AND ONE THING WE HAVE DISCOVERED IS THAT IT IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION, WE NEED A VARIETY OF INTEGRITY AGENCIES. SOME AUSTRALIAN STATES HAVE MEANS BY WHICH ` IN QUEENSLAND WE HAVE AN INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER, THROUGH WHICH POLITICIANS CAN BE GIVEN POLITICAL ADVICE AND INTEGRITY ADVISED THAT THEY CAN RELY ON. SOME STATES HAVE INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONERS TO INVESTIGATE BREACHES OF MINISTERIAL CODES. LIKE A LOT OF WESTMINSTER SYSTEMS, YOUR MINISTERIAL CODE IS FAIRLY LIMITED IN SCOPE, AND WORST OF ALL, THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE MINISTERIAL CODE, AS A MATTER FOR THE PRIME MINISTER ` AND PRIME MINISTERS HAVE A MASSIVE AND IRREDEEMABLE CONFLICT OF INTEREST IN INVESTIGATING AND DECIDING HOW THEIR OWN COLLEAGUES WILL BE ` WHETHER THEY ARE GUILTY OF A BREACH OF THE CODE AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT. THERE ARE A LOT OF INTEGRITY REFORMS, THAT QUEENSLAND HAS PUSHED THROUGH, IT IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF THE COMMONWEALTH, IT IS A MATTER OF STATES ` THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING POSSIBILITIES, AS WE HAVE STRONG STATE GOVERNMENTS, IN WHICH EACH CAN LEARN FROM THE OTHER, AND PERHAPS NEW ZEALAND CAN LEARN FROM US. I'M GONNA PICK UP ON THE POINT ABOUT PRIME MINISTER ` WHAT WOULD BE A BETTER SYSTEM IN NEW ZEALAND? NO ONE HAS A PERFECT SYSTEM, AS A COMMON PROBLEM. IN THE UK, THE MOTHER OF PARLIAMENTS, THEY HAVE CREATED AN OFFICIAL OFFICE FOR SOMEONE TO INVESTIGATE BREACHES OF THE MINISTERIAL CODE, WE RECOMMEND, FOLLOWING ON CANADIAN IDEAS, A CANADIAN IDEA THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE AN ETHICS COUNSELLOR, AND AN ETHICS COMMISSIONER. THE ETHICS COUNSELLOR CAN GIVE ADVICE, IF THEY ARE UNCERTAIN ABOUT WHETHER THEY'RE IN BREACH OF THE ETHICAL CODE, ALL-WEATHER SOMETHING THEY ARE THINKING OF DOING MIGHT BREACH THE CODE, AND THEY CAN RECEIVE AUTHORITATIVE ADVICE ` WE GIVE IT THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER AND QUEENSLAND, THE GENERIC TERM AS AN ETHICS COUNSELLOR. SOMEONE WHO CAN GIVE ADVICE AND IF YOU HAVE DISCLOSED ALL THE RELEVANT FACTS, AND YOU'VE ACTED ACCORDING TO THE ADVICE OF THE ETHICS COUNSELLOR, THE ETHICS COUNSELLOR HAS WRITTEN YOU A LETTER AND INDICATES WHAT YOU CAN ETHICALLY DO IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES. THAT IS SEPARATE FROM AN ETHICS COMMISSIONER, SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY INVESTIGATE BREACHES OF THE MINISTERIAL CODE. THIS IS USEFUL BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT THE MINISTER DOESN'T HAVE TOO ENGAGE THEMSELVES IN A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, ' DO I REALLY SHOULD THROW MY COLLEAGUE UNDER THE BUS?' A MIXTURE OF THE TWO, AN ADVISOR AND AN INVESTIGATOR, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PRIME MINISTER CAN'T ACTUALLY, AS HE NORMALLY DOES, SACK SOMEBODY, WITH OR WITHOUT CAUSE. ON THE OTHER HAND, IT MEANS THAT IF THERE IS A SERIOUS ETHICAL BREACH, THEN THERE IS SOMEONE TO INVESTIGATE THAT, AND THAT WILL BUILD CONFIDENCE IN THE MINISTERIAL CODE. THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER CHANGES THAT COULD BE FOLLOWED. WE ARE NOT ACCUSING ANYONE OF CORRUPTION, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NEW CORRUPTION COMMISSION ` FOR YEARS YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT STRENGTHENING AUSTRALIA'S ANTICORRUPTION MECHANISMS. AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION WILL BE STARTED IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, WHAT WILL THAT ACHIEVE? IT AS PART OF THE ANSWER ` YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, NOT ALL OF THE CONCERNS WE HAVE A MATTERS OF CORRUPTION. OFTEN WE DO NOT KNOW WHICH IT IS. THE ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF AN INTEGRITY SYSTEM FOR WHEN THINGS GO REALLY WRONG, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION IS ONE PART OF AN INTEGRITY SYSTEM ` A SET OF DIFFERENT INSTITUTIONS. YOU NEED TO BE EARLY ON WITH CREATING AN OFFICE OF THE OMBUDSMAN ` YOU LEAD MOST OF THE COMMONWEALTH ` BUT LIKE A LOT OF COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A REPUTATION FOR RELATIVELY HIGH LEVELS OF INTEGRITY THERE IS CERTAIN COMPLACENCY THAT CAN COME IN. AUSTRALIA HAS LED TO THE WORLD, IN THE 1970S, WITH A MINISTRY OF LAW REFORM, AND OFFICIAL INFORMATION ACT, JUDICIAL REVIEW WHICH ALLOWS EASY ACCESS TO JUDICIAL REVIEW ` A WHOLE RANGE OF DIFFERENT REFORMS, BUT AUSTRALIA BECAME COMPLACENT, WHICH IS EASY TO DO, BECAUSE CORRUPTION OPERATES UNDER THE RADAR, SO AN APPALLING PART OF IT, AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT, BUT NOT THE ONLY PART AS NOT ALL OF THE ISSUES ARE CORRUPTION, THERE ARE THINGS LIKE CONFLICT OF INTEREST, DONATIONS, LOBBYING, NOT ALL OF THESE ARE CORRUPTION, BUT MANY OF THEM INVOLVE A LACK OF INTEGRITY WHICH CAN, IF UNCHECKED, BY A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT INTEGRITY MEASURES, WILL CREATE LONG-TERM PROBLEMS. AND THE LACK OF CONFIDENCE AND INTEGRITY SYSTEM WHICH YOU DESCRIBE. NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO CONSIDER A NUMBER OF MEASURES, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION, SHOULD NEW ZEALAND HAVE A SIMILAR ONE TO THE AUSTRALIAN MODEL? I THINK THAT EVERY DEMOCRACY NEEDS AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION, EMPHASISING THAT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS YOU NEED TO HAVE, TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF GOVERNMENT, ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION IS, IN MY VIEW, ESSENTIAL. IN SAYING THAT IT IS NOT THE ONLY THING, THAT YOU NEED, I AM NOT SAYING YOU DO NOT NEED IT. FOR A LONG TIME, VARIOUS STATES HAVE HAD SCANDALS AND THOSE SCANDALS HAVE LED TO THE CREATION OF ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSIONS, AND NOW MOST STATES AND TERRITORIES HAVE ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSIONS. THE COMMONWEALTH HAS RESISTED FOR A LONG TIME, THEY SAY THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF WIDESPREAD CORRUPTION, SO WHY WOULD THEY NEED IT ` THAT THAT IS A FALLACY. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ANTICORRUPTION MECHANISM, IT IS UNLIKELY THAT CORRUPTION WILL BE DISCOVERED. SO YES, I THINK WE HAVE DISCOVERED FINALLY, IT GOT TO THE POINT WITH A LACK OF AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION BECAME A BIG POLITICAL ISSUE, AND THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT WAS HURT ENORMOUSLY BY IT, NOT JUST SUPPORT FOR THE LABOUR PARTY, BUT SUPPORT FOR THE GREENS AND BE SO-CALLED TEAL INDEPENDENCE, WHO ARE LIKE A LIBERAL WING. ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE REALISE THEY NEED AN ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSION, AND THAT IS CERTAINLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN AUSTRALIA. AUSTRALIANS MAY NOT BE PERFECT, NEW ZEALAND SHOULD LOOK TO GO BEYOND BEST PRACTICE, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS WHICH WE HAVE FOUND, WHEN BEING CONSULTED BY THE GOVERNMENT, THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE BELIEVE YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN AUSTRALIA, BUT I THINK IT IS A VERY GOOD POINT TO START OFF WITH THE COMPARISONS. AGAIN, NOT JUST THE FEDERAL ANTICORRUPTION COMMISSIONS, BUT THE STATE ONES TOO. WHICH HAVE BEEN OPERATING FOR A WHILE AND HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE. LOBBYING, NEW ZEALAND DOESN'T HAVE A REGISTER OF LOBBYISTS, THERE IS NO STANDDOWN. FROM PEOPLE LEAVING GOVERNMENT, OR ANY OTHER DIRECTION. WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT LOBBYING IN NEW ZEALAND? YOU SHOULD CERTAINLY HAVE A REGISTER OF INTERESTS, YOU SHOULD CERTAINLY LEARN FROM SOME OF THE INADEQUACIES OF THE AUSTRALIAN, AND VARIOUS STATE JURISDICTIONS, THERE ARE LOTS OF WEAKNESS IN THE LOBBYIST REGISTER. BECAUSE ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE, IF SOMEBODY IS A MINISTER AND THEN RESIGNS AND JOINS A LOBBYING FIRM, HE HAS TO REGISTER. BUT IF HE OR SHE JOIN A COMPANY, AND IS EMPLOYED BY CORPORATION THEY ARE NOT BY DEFINITION A LOBBYIST, WHICH IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST LOOPHOLES YOU COULD IMAGINE, YOU COULD DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH IT. SERIOUSLY, YOU DO NEED A LOBBYIST REGISTER, BUT YOU NEED TO LOOK AT BEST PRACTISED AND BEYOND BEST PRACTICE, OTHERWISE COMPLACENCY WILL BE BUILT IN. AS FAR AS STANDDOWN PERIODS, I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. SOME MINISTERS HAVE, AFTER FINISHING, HAS STARTED IMMEDIATELY OR QUITE QUICKLY WITH COMPANIES THAT DEAL WITH THE AREA THEY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH, AND I'M SORRY WHEN PEOPLE HAVE MADE A PARTICULAR MINISTER REDUNDANT BY VOTING HIM OUT OF OFFICE, THEY NEED TO LOOK FOR WORK, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THE WORK SHOULD NOT INVOLVE LOBBYING THEIR PREVIOUS COLLEAGUES OR ENGAGE IN LOBBYING FOR THE INTERESTS THAT THEY WERE ONCE TRYING TO REGULATE. THERE IS ENORMOUS TEMP PATIENT TO THINK ABOUT POST EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES, AND THOSE THAT ARE GOING TO BE LUCRATIVE, AND THOSE THAT ARE GOING TO BE MOST LUCRATIVE ARE USUALLY THE LEAST APPROPRIATE, THE POST-POLITICAL EMPLOYMENT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, WE APPRECIATE IT. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER, AND FACEBOOK. NEXT ` WE'RE IN THE U.S. TO ASK WILL CRIMINAL CHARGES HELP OR HURT THE RE-ELECTION CHANCES OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP? WELL, I THINK THE UNPRECEDENTED INDICTMENT OF A FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON A CAMPAIGN-FINANCE ISSUE IS AN OUTRAGE, AND IT APPEARS ` TO MILLIONS OF AMERICANS ` TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN A POLITICAL PROSECUTION THAT'S DIRVEN BY A PROSECUTOR WHO LITERALLY RAN FOR OFFICE ON THE PLEDGE TO INDICT THE FORMER PRESIDENT. THAT'S FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE REACTING TO THE NEWS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BECOME THE FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT TO BE INDICTED ON CRIMINAL CHARGES. WE DON'T KNOW THE EXACT NATURE OF THE CHARGES YET, AND THE FILE WON'T BE UNLOCKED UNTIL WEDNESDAY NZT, BUT THEY RELATE TO CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS AND HUSH MONEY THAT WAS PAID ON BEHALF OF TRUMP TO ADULT FILM ACTRESS STORMY DANIELS. DONALD TRUMP'S SUPPORTERS SAY THE CHARGES ARE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED. AND WE HAVE CEASED BEING A COUNTRY THAT COULD BE DESCRIBED AS A COUNTRY OF LAWS. WE'VE BECOME A COUNTRY OF... DICTATORS. DEMOCRAT DICTATORS... WHO DECIDE WHO'S GOING TO BE PROSECUTED, MAKE IT UP, AND WHO'S NOT GOING TO BE PROSECUTED, AND LET THEM GET AWAY WITH SOME OF THE WORST CRIMES, INCLUDING CRIMES THAT ARE VERY CLOSE TO TREASON. ALTOGETHER, THIS SITUATION IS SHAPING UP AS A MASSIVE TEST OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. CORRESPONDENT KATHERINE FIRKIN IS LIVE OUTSIDE DONALD TRUMP'S HOME AT MAR A LARGO IN FLORIDA FOR US THIS MORNING. HOW'S IT GOING TO WORK WHEN DONALD TRUMP LEAVES HIS HOME AND IS RAINED INTERESTINGLY, TRUMP'S TEAM HAS BEEN VERY VOCAL ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN OVER THE NEXT 48-HOUR'S. ON MONDAY HE WILL FLY TO NEW YORK BY PRIVATE JET, AND THEN HE WILL STAY IN TRUMP TOWER. THEN HIS LEGAL TEAM WILL HEAD TO THE MANHATTAN COURT, WHERE HE WILL BE FINGERPRINTED AND HAVE A MUG SHOT TAKEN ` NOT A PARTICULARLY AUSPICIOUS OPPORTUNITY FOR AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, AND AT THAT MOMENT TRUMP WILL GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO ENTER HIS PLEAS, WE ARE SPEAKING ADEPTLY WILL BE NOT GUILTY. I WANT TO BRING SOME PICTURES OF THE SECURITY AND POLICE PRESENCE IN NEW YORK ` WHAT IS THE RISK OF VIOLENCE OR UNREST? CERTAINLY, WE HAVE SEEN A MASSIVE SECURITY PRESENCE, IN NEW YORK AND HERE IN FLORIDA. LAW-ENFORCEMENT IS SAYING THERE IS NO CREDIBLE THREAT TO THE COURT APPEARANCE, BUT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY OF A LONE WOLF ATTACKER, THEY ARE EXPECTING GENERAL CHAOS AROUND THE COURT DISTRICT, AND THAT SOMEONE WHO MAY NOT BE ON THAT RADAR AND MAY HAVE A GRIEVANCE AGAINST TRUMP, OR A LAW IN FORCE MEANT OFFICIAL, ARE SEEN AS THE MAIN RIVAL TO DONALD TRUMP ` DE SANITS ` HOW HAS HE REACTED TO THE INDICTMENT? THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT BESTIES ` DE SANTIS HAS NOT YET ANNOUNCED HE WILL RUN FOR PRESIDENT ` HE CERTAINLY SEEMS PRETTY KEEN TO STAY ON THE SIDELINES AND SET THIS ONE OUT, BECAUSE TRUMP WILL BE HAS MAJOR COMPETITOR IF HE DOESN'T THROW HIS RING INTO THE HAT. DE SANTIS HAS TWEETED THAT HE WILL NOT SUPPORT AN EXTRADITION REQUEST, I EXPECT IT WILL NOT GET TO THAT ` IT LOOKS LIKE TRUMP WANTS THE ATTENTION, AND WANTS TO BE TAKEN IN FRONT OF THE CROWD, HE MAVEN WANT TO BE HANDCUFFED SO THAT HE COMES ACROSS AS A POLITICAL MARTYR. IS THERE A SENSE THAT THIS TURN OF EVENTS IS LIKELY TO BOOST DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN? THERE CERTAINLY IS THAT DISCUSSION TAKING PLACE, IT IS HARD TO KNOW AT THE MOMENT WHAT THIS WILL DO FOR HIS RE-ELECTION CHANCES. ANY OTHER POLITICIAN IN THE WORLD, IF INDICTED AND CHARGED, IT WOULD SPELL THE END OF THEIR POLITICAL CAREER. BUT DONALD TRUMP THRIVES ON CHAOS AND TURMOIL, SO CERTAINLY THIS COULD WORK TO GALVANISE HIS SUPPORTERS. PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO HERE, SAY THAT THIS WILL SEND HIM STRAIGHT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. THAT MAY NOT BE COMPLETELY ACCURATE, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN FUNDRAISING SINCE THE INDICTMENT WAS ANNOUNCED, AND THEY HAVE RAISED MORE THAN US$4 MILLION ` IT IS CERTAINLY DOING SOMETHING TO ENERGISE HIS CAMPAIGN, WE'RE NOT SURE THAT IT WILL CARRY THROUGH. IN NEW YORK, IT IS DOMINATED BY DEMOCRATS, AND DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ARE ELECTED, WHICH MEANS THEY ARE INHERENTLY POLITICAL POSITIONS. HOW HAS THE NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY RESPONDED TO ALLEGATIONS THAT THESE CHARGES ARE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED? MANY HAVE BEEN VERY QUICK TO SAY THIS IS A WITCH HUNT, INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP, SAYING THAT HE IS THE VICTIM OF A LEGAL PERSECUTION. THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS HIT OUT SAYING THAT THIS IS A PROCESS OF MONTHS, GRAND JURY'S HAVE BEEN MEETING, AND THERE MUST BE A GREAT DEAL OF EVIDENCE FOR THEM ALL TO AGREE. HE NOW WANTS THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO PLAY OUT AS IT IS DESIGNED TO DO. IT IS GOING TO BE A CRAZY 18 MONTHS. AFTER THE BREAK ` NEW ZEALAND'S IMMIGRATION MINISTER HAS A NEW PLAN FOR PROCESSING ASYLUM SEEKERS. BUT CRITICS SAY IT'S INHUMANE. WELCOME BACK TO Q+A. IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD INTRODUCED NEW LEGISLATION AROUND DEALING WITH MASS ARRIVALS BY BOAT. AROUND THE WESTERN WORLD, COUNTRIES ARE INCREASING THE BARRIERS TO PEOPLE SEEKING ASYLUM. WILL THEY ARRIVE? WHEN WILL THEY ARRIVE? WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT SO-CALLED BOAT PEOPLE ` MODERN DAY ASYLUM SEEKERS AS YET HAVEN'T ARRIVED IN NEW ZEALAND. I MOVE THAT THE IMMIGRATION MASS ARRIVALS AMENDMENT BILL BE NOW READ A FIRST TIME. JUST IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT PLANS TO UPDATE THE LAW AROUND POSSIBLE MASS MARITIME ARRIVALS, SEEKING TO EXTEND THE DETENTION TIME FOR PROCESSING FROM 96 HOURS UP TO 28 DAYS. FORMER IMMIGRATION MINISTER, NATIONAL'S MICHAEL WOODHOUSE, REMEMBERS THE ORIGINAL MASS ARRIVALS LEGISLATION GOING THROUGH PARLIAMENT AND LABOUR SCOFFING AT IT. DAVID CUNLIFFE, WHO VERY SHORTLY AFTER THIS BILL WAS PASSED, BECAME LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, BASICALLY SAID THERE WAS MORE CHANCE OF LITTLE GREEN MEN COMING FROM MARS THAN A BOAT LANDING ON THE SHORES OF NEW ZEALAND. THIS TIME ROUND WITH LABOUR AT THE HELM, IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD, APPEARED APOLOGETIC. THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT, AS A LABOUR MINISTER, I'VE DREAMED OF BRINGING TO THIS HOUSE. GREENS MP GOLRIZ GHAHRAMAN CLAIMS NEW ZEALAND HAD A GOOD REPUTATION AS A WELCOMING COUNTRY TO DISPLACED PEOPLE, UP UNTIL NOW. WE CERTAINLY HAVEN'T HAD THE KIND OF ATTITUDES THAT WE SEE ON THE RISE NOW. SO THIS BILL IS A SAD MOMENT FOR NEW ZEALAND IN SHIFTING US TOWARDS THAT PUNITIVE ATTITUDE. GHAHRAMAN IS REFERRING TO A HARDER LINE ON UNAUTHORISED ARRIVALS TAKEN BY THE UK, AUSTRALIA, THE U.S AND CANADA OVER THE PAST DECADE, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST YEAR. THIS IS THE UK'S MESSAGE TO THESE REFUGEES CAMPED AT DUNKIRK. IF YOU COME HERE ILLEGALLY, YOU CAN'T CLAIM ASYLUM. YOU CAN'T BENEFIT FROM OUR MODERN SLAVERY PROTECTIONS. YOU CAN'T MAKE SPURIOUS HUMAN RIGHTS CLAIMS, AND YOU CAN'T STAY. ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, JOE BIDEN AND JUSTIN TRUDEAU HAVE RECENTLY TOUGHENED UP ON ILLEGAL MIGRANTS CROSSING THEIR BORDER. AFTER MIDNIGHT TONIGHT, POLICE AND BORDER OFFICERS WILL ENFORCE THE AGREEMENT. DR NEIL VALLELLY FROM OTAGO UNIVERSITY'S CENTRE FOR GLOBAL MIGRATIONS IS LOOKING AT WHY THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES, KNOWN AS THE GLOBAL NORTH, ARE STRENGTHENING THEIR LEGISLATION AROUND ILLEGAL ARRIVALS. THERE ARE VERY HIGH LEVELS OF ECONOMIC INEQUALITY ACROSS THE GLOBAL NORTH AT THE MOMENT, INCLUDING IN NEW ZEALAND WITH THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS. AND IMMIGRANTS OFTEN BECOME A KIND OF EASY TARGET FOR GOVERNMENTS TO POINT TOWARDS. AND THEN THERE'S INCREASING KIND OF GLOBAL INEQUALITIES, PARTICULARLY BETWEEN THE GLOBAL NORTH AND THE GLOBAL SOUTH. SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH ARE FORCED TO MOVE TO THE COUNTRIES OF THE GLOBAL NORTH IN SEARCH OF JOBS AND BETTER INCOME, WHICH THEN LEADS TO KIND OF GROWING ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. WARS AND CONFLICTS OBVIOUSLY LEAD TO MASS DISPLACEMENTS OF PEOPLE. WE'RE IN AN ELECTION YEAR, AND IT WILL BE CLOSE TO THE ELECTION AS THE BILL GETS DEBATED. THE COMMUNITIES IDENTIFIED BY THIS BILL ` THE FORMER REFUGEES AND ASYLUM SEEKER COMMUNITIES AND EVEN MIGRANTS OF COLOUR ` WILL BECOME THE TARGET OF DIFFERENT INTEREST GROUPS ` FAR RIGHT GROUPS THAT ARE BECOMING LOUDER AND LOUDER IN NEW ZEALAND POLITICS AS THEIR HUMANITY IS DEBATED IN PARLIAMENT. THE GREEN MP MAY SEE THE BILL AS PUNITIVE, BUT NATIONAL'S GERRY BROWNLEE WONDERS IF LABOUR'S REWORKING OF IT MAY BE AN INVITATION TO PROSPECTIVE ASYLUM SEEKERS. IF THE BILL WERE TO MEAN THAT THEIR CHANCES WERE PRETTY GOOD AT GETTING CITIZENSHIP HERE AND GETTING A RESIDENCE HERE, THEN I THINK WE WOULD HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A PROBLEM, BECAUSE WE'D BE SIGNALLING TO A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE THAT WE'RE AN EASY TARGET. (SOMBRE MUSIC) AND WE HAVE BEEN A TARGET BEFORE. LAST DECADE, PASSENGERS ON SEVERAL BOATS INTERCEPTED BY THE AUSTRALIANS REPORTED THAT THEY WERE HEADING TO OUR SHORES. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THEY'D PUT OUT A DISTRESS CALL, WHICH IS WHY THE BOAT WAS BORDERED BY AUSTRALIAN PERSONNEL. IN 2015, JOHN KEY'S GOVERNMENT WAS EMBROILED IN A DIPLOMATIC CONTROVERSY OVER A BOAT BOUND FOR NEW ZEALAND, THE INDECA, BUT TURNED AROUND BY THE AUSTRALIANS. THE INDONESIANS ACCUSING TONY ABBOTT OF PAYING THE SKIPPERS OFF. DR VALLELLY CLAIMS THE UK IS NOW MIRRORING AUSTRALIA'S HARD LINE. THE POLICIES IN THE UK ARE REALLY INTERESTING FROM A RESEARCH SIDE OF THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY MUCH REFLECTING AND DRAWING ON LOTS OF THE SAME IMAGERY AND LANGUAGE THAT AUSTRALIA HAS USED OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. SO WE SAW RISHI SUNAK STANDING AT A PODIUM WITH A FREEZE ON THE PODIUM THAT SAID 'STOP THE BOATS', WHICH WAS A CAMPAIGN THAT TONY ABBOTT WAS VERY FOND OF, THAT SCOTT MORRISON USED A LOT OF THE PHRASE 'STOP THE BOATS'. MIGRANTS HAVE FOREVER BEEN EXPLOITED AS POLITICAL PAWNS AT TIMES. DURING THE HARSH NORTHERN WINTER OF 2021, THE EU ACCUSED BELARUS OF INTENTIONALLY SENDING ASYLUM SEEKERS UP TO THE BORDER WITH POLAND TO DESTABILISE EUROPE. IT IS AN ABUSE OF SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE ` MIGRANTS TURNED INTO WEAPONS IN A POLITICAL BATTLE. BACK HOME, THE IMMIGRATION MINISTER IN DEFENCE OF HIS BILL CITES CANADA'S EXPERIENCE IN 2010 WHEN THEY WERE UNPREPARED FOR THE SUDDEN ARRIVAL OF 492 ASYLUM SEEKERS. WE DO HAVE CREDIBLE INFORMATION AND INTELLIGENCE THAT NEW ZEALAND CONTINUES TO BE A DESTINATION OF INTEREST TO PEOPLE SMUGGLERS. THERE'S QUITE A BIT REDACTED IN THAT CABINET PAPER ABOUT THIS AMENDMENT. SHOULDN'T YOU JUST` OR SHOULDN'T WE JUST TRUST THE GOVERNMENT WHO IS PRIVY TO INFORMATION ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OF MASS ARRIVALS? THE RIGHT TO BE FREE FROM ARBITRARY DETENTION, AND IN THIS CASE, PROBABLY IN A CRIMINAL PRISON, IS ONE OF THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS IN OUR SYSTEM. AND EVERY TIME A GOVERNMENT CITES A LACK OF RESOURCE OR SECRET INFORMATION TO TAKE AWAY A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT, WE ABSOLUTELY SHOULD CHALLENGE THEM. SUBMITTERS WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHALLENGE THE GOVERNMENT AS THE BILL GOES THROUGH THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS. THE NUMBERS OF DISPLACED PEOPLE IS PREDICTED, TO INCREASE GLOBALLY THE NUMBERS OF DISPLACED PEOPLE IS PREDICTED, TO INCREASE GLOBALLY THIS DECADE DUE TO ECONOMIC STRESS, POLITICAL CONFLICTS, AND THERE ARE OTHER FORCES IN WAITING. CLIMATE CHANGE IS ALSO GOING TO BE A HUGE DRIVER OF MIGRATION, AND THIS IS GOING TO BE A REAL BIG ISSUE IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC. AND SO WE CAN'T NECESSARILY SAY EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT IF TRENDS CONTINUE AS THEY ARE, WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE FLOWS OF MIGRATION. AND THESE ARE ISSUES THAT GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE GLOBAL NORTH ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CONFRONT. AND ACCORDING TO LABOUR, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS TWEAK OF THE LAW IS CONFRONTING. STAY WITH US ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING JACINDA ARDERN'S VALEDICTORY SPEECH IS THIS WEDNESDAY IN PARLIAMENT, THERE WILL BE COVERAGE ON THE 1 NEWS WEBSITE. WE'LL BE OFF AIR NEXT WEEKEND FOR EASTER, BUT HOPE YOU ALL HAVE A WONDERFUL LONG WEEKEND, AND WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN ON APRIL 16. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND SEAN LYDIARD. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR.