TENA TATOU KATOA. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. NAU MAI, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAM TODAY ` WE CROSS LIVE TO SYDNEY FOR THE LATEST ON THE SWEEPING LIBERALISATION OF CITIZENSHIP LAWS FOR KIWIS ANNOUNCED OVERNIGHT. THE REAL REASON WE SENT A DELEGATION OF 50 TO THE PACIFIC THIS WEEK. CARMEL SEPULONI JOINS US STRAIGHT FROM HER FIRST MISSION AS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. AND WHY BRING BACK LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS? NATIONAL'S NEW FACE NICOLA GRIGG DEFENDS THE PARTY'S POLICY IN HER FIRST LONGFORM INTERVIEW. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. FIRST UP TODAY, NEWS IN FROM AUSTRALIA OVERNIGHT THAT KIWIS WILL HAVE A NEW PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP FROM JULY. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KIWIS LIVING IN AUSTRALIA WILL BE ABLE TO APPLY FOR DUAL CITIZENSHIP, INCLUDING FULL VOTING RIGHTS AND ACCESS TO WELFARE. IT IS A CHANGE NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTERS HAVE LOBBIED FOR SINCE THOSE RIGHTS WERE STRIPPED AWAY BY THE HOWARD GOVERNMENT IN 2001. AUSTRALIAN CORRESPONDENT JASON MORRISON JOINS US NOW FROM SYDNEY. GOOD MORNING, JASON. YOU'RE HIDING FROM YOUR KIDS IN THE CAR THERE, WHICH I THINK MANY PARENTS WILL BE ABLE TO RELATE TO, BUT I THINK THIS IS A HUGE TURNAROUND BY THE GOVERNMENT THERE, ISN'T IT? WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED, AND WHY NOW? LOOK, I CAN TELL YOU WHATEVER OUR RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN OUR TWO COUNTRIES WILL BE, FOR NOW AND IN THE FUTURE, COMPARED TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN MY HOUSE RIGHT NOW OVER LEGO, (CHUCKLES) IT'S PROBABLY SAFER TO BE IN THE CAR RIGHT NOW. YEAH, THIS IS GOOD. THIS IS A BIG THING THAT HAS BEEN A BUGBEAR IN THE RELATIONSHIP, AND FOR MOST AUSTRALIANS, TOTALLY WE ARE UNAWARE. IGNORANTLY, I ONLY FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS PROBLEM A YEAR OR SO AGO FROM A STAFF MEMBER WHO WAS A KIWI WHO SAID TO ME, 'I HAD TO BASICALLY GO THROUGH ALL THIS BUSINESS 'TO BECOME AN AUSTRALIAN, CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?' AND I SAID, 'I DON'T BELIEVE IT. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?' I HAD NO IDEA. ONE OF THOSE CLASSIC UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF A GOVERNMENT DECISION A LONG TIME AGO WHICH BECAME TOO HARD TO FIX. IT WILL BE FIXED. IT WILL BE FIXED BECAUSE IT SHOULD BE FIXED. WHEN IT HAPPENED, THERE WAS A PROBLEM. THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM TODAY, AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE FIXING IT. IT'S LIKE ALL THESE THINGS. THE ONE THING IF YOU ARE A POLITICIAN OF ANY COUNTRY YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SEEN TO DO, IS TO BE THROWING AWAY BENEFITS TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T YOUR CITIZENS, AND I CAN SEE HOW THIS BECAME A POLITICAL BLOCK FOR SO LONG, IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS, LIKE, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO LOSE CAPITAL ON? IT REALLY GOES TO THE HEART OF THE GREAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN OUR TWO COUNTRIES, AND IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE, AND IT WILL BE DONE. I WAS JUST WONDERING ABOUT THAT, ACTUALLY, JASON. HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE RECEIVED BY AUSTRALIANS? IT HAS BEEN POLITICAL KRYPTONITE HISTORICALLY, BUT HOW DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE VIEWED TODAY? I'D SAY, LIKE MOST PEOPLE, WHEN I READ ABOUT IT THIS MORNING, I SAID, 'WHAT? REALLY? WE'RE DOING THAT? WHY ARE WE DOING THAT? 'WHY DID WE DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?' I THINK THAT WILL BE THE GENERAL REACTION. IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE, AND IN AN ERA OF PARTICULARLY YOUNGER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THE INSTANT DESIRE WHEN YOU HIT ADULT YEARS IS TO WANT TO TRAVEL AND GO SEE THE WORLD, TO THINK THAT THAT HAS BEEN AN IMPEDIMENT TO KIWI KIDS COMING TO AUSTRALIA, AND FAMILIES CHOOSING TO RELOCATE FOR WHATEVER BUSINESS HAPPENS TO BE, IT SORT OF MAKE SENSE. I WOULD SAY MOST PEOPLE WILL BE INDIFFERENT TO IT, AND IF ANYTHING, PROBABLY THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. THERE IS A PERCEPTION IN AUSTRALIA THAT WE BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO HELP PEOPLE FROM EVERY OTHER PLACE IN THE WORLD, SO WHY NOT FOR NEW ZEALAND? IF THERE'S A LIST OF PEOPLE THAT I'D BE QUITE COMFORTABLE TO HAVE IN MY COUNTRY, EARNING, WORKING, AND ENJOYING CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS, IT WOULD BE OUR NEAREST AND DEAREST CLOSEST FRIENDS ` YOU GUYS. I AM VERY HAPPY TO HEAR THAT, AND WE ARE NEAR AND DEAR ` WE ARE ON ANZAC WEEKEND HERE, GOING INTO ANZAC DAY TUESDAY NEXT WEEK, AND I WONDERED, HOW IT IS VIEWED IN AUSTRALIA THAT NEW ZEALAND ISN'T WITH AUSTRALIA, THE UK AND U.S. IN AUKUS? WHAT DO AUSTRALIANS THINK ABOUT THAT? (SIGHS) IF I COULD SAY IT POLITELY, WE PROBABLY DON'T THINK ON A GEOPOLITICAL LEVEL YET ON THAT FRONT, BECAUSE THE FEELING IS WHEN THE CARDS ARE DOWN, WE ARE TOGETHER. IT JUST IS THAT AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND THAT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE. I MEAN, OUR SYMBOLS ARE SO IMPORTANT IN THESE THINGS. EVERY DAY, I DRIVE TO WORK AND PASS A STATUE OF A NEW ZEALAND CITIZEN DRESSED IN HIS ARMY UNIFORM, FIGHTING FOR OUR DUAL CAUSES. I PASS THE NEW ZEALAND FLAG ON THE BRIDGE THAT IS THE ANZAC BRIDGE. IT IS JUST SOMETHING THAT WE ARE SEEN AS BONDED. THAT WE ARE NOT BECAUSE OF THE POLITICS AND VIEWS ABOUT THINGS TO DO WITH, SAY, NUCLEAR SUBMARINES, IS SOMETHING THAT I FEEL TIME WILL SOLVE. THERE MIGHT NOT BE A SIGNATURE ON THE PAPER TO SAY AUSTRALIA CAN BRING YOUR SUBMARINES AND PARK THEM IN AUCKLAND HARBOUR, IT MIGHT NOT BE THERE, BUT I SENSE THAT BY THE TIME WE GET THESE THINGS, THE WORLD WILL HAVE CHANGED SO PROFOUNDLY THAT AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND WILL HAVE WORKED THIS THING OUT. I DON'T THINK THERE IS A GAP IN THE RELATIONSHIP, IT'S JUST, IF I MAY BE ARROGANT TO SAY, WE HAVE PROBABLY TAKEN A STEP FURTHER THAN YOU GUYS HAVE RIGHT NOW, AND YOUR STEP MAY COME. YEAH, YOU ARE ALWAYS A BIT BOLDER OVER THERE, AREN'T YOU, JASON. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION THIS MORNING. ALL THE BEST, AND THANK YOU FOR THE PARTNERSHIP OF OUR TWO COUNTRIES. IT IS AN IMPORTANT THING WE SHALL NEVER EVER LET GET IN THE WAY. WONDERFUL. WE'LL RETURN SHORTLY WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL EFESO COLLINS, JENNIFER CURTIN AND LIAM HEHIR, PLUS ` THE REAL REASON WE SENT A DELEGATION OF 50 TO THE PACIFIC THIS WEEK. CARMEL SEPULONI, WITH US AFTER THE BREAK. CARMEL SEPULONI HAS JUST RETURNED FROM A FIVE-DAY, 50-PERSON MISSION TO THE PACIFIC, AND IT WAS THE FIRST BIG TRIP TAKEN IN HER CAPACITY AS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND ASSOCIATE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER FOR THE PACIFIC. IT'S BIG DEAL FOR HER, AND FOR US ALL, STRATEGICALLY AS A COUNTRY. SO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. KIA ORA. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU IN DETAIL THIS MORNING ABOUT THE 'HEIGHTENED STRATEGIC COMPETITION' IN THE PACIFIC. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS; THAT'S HOW YOU TO DESCRIBED IT. YOU HAVE BEEN TO TWO OF THE HOTTEST SPOTS, ACTUALLY ` FIJI AND THE SOLOMON ISLANDS ` AND IT IS FAIR TO SAY CHINA IS COMPETING FIERCELY TO BE THE MAIN STRATEGIC PARTNER IN THOSE PLACES, AND IT IS HAVING SOME SUCCESS, WHICH IS A STUNNING REVERSAL OF DECADES OF DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THOSE COUNTRIES, ISN'T IT? LOOK, ALL OF OUR PACIFIC NATIONS AND NEIGHBOURS ARE SOVEREIGN NATIONS. THEY CAN HAVE RELATIONSHIPS, OF COURSE, WITH WHOEVER THEY CHOOSE TO IN TERMS OF PARTNERSHIPS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES. WE ARE ONE OF THE PARTNERS, AND I CONSIDER NEW ZEALAND TO BE ONE OF THE KEY PARTNERS. WE WERE IN THERE OVER THE COURSE OF THE WEEK TO RECONNECT, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO THE EXTENT THAT WE WOULD OTHERWISE BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC, AND TO STRENGTHEN THE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HAVE AS A COUNTRY IN THE REGION. THE PANDEMIC HASN'T HELD CHINA BACK. IT IS STRENGTHENING ITS RELATIONSHIPS, PARTICULARLY WITH THE SOLOMON ISLANDS. PENNY WONG, YOUR COUNTERPART IN AUSTRALIA, CALLED THE SECURITY DEAL THERE ONE OF THE GREATEST FAILURES IN FOREIGN POLICY IN THE HISTORY OF THE REGION. YOU AGREE? I THINK WE HAVE A VERY STRONG RELATIONSHIP IN THE REGION, AND THAT WAS CERTAINLY HOW WE FELT WHEN WE WERE WELCOMED BY ALL OF THE PACIFIC COUNTRIES` BUT THAT SECURITY PACT WAS A MAJOR FAILURE, WASN'T IT, OF DIPLOMACY IN THE REGION BY OUR COUNTRY AND AUSTRALIA. I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SAY THAT. WE WERE THERE TO BUILD ON THE BREADTH AND DEPTH OF OUR RELATIONSHIP, AND THAT CERTAINLY CAME THROUGH FROM THE LEADERS THAT WE SPOKE TO, AND ALSO THE DELEGATION THAT WE TOOK. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH POLITICIANS ENGAGE; IT'S ABOUT THE PACIFIC DIASPORA THAT WE HAVE HERE, AND THE STRENGTH OF RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEM AND OUR PACIFIC NATIONS AS WELL. DUAVATA, FAMILY. OH YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. BUT THAT IS A STRATEGY. THAT IS YOUR STRATEGY. IT IS NOT ONLY A STRATEGY, IT IS ACTUALLY HOW IT IS. I AM DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND NOW ASSOCIATE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER WITH A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PACIFIC REGION, AND YES, ACTUALLY, I AM FAMILY WITH THE PACIFIC BECAUSE OF MY SAMOAN AND TONGAN CONNECTIONS. THERE IS A DEPTH TO THE RELATIONSHIP THAT AOTEAROA HAS WITH PACIFIC NATIONS THAT IS VERY HARD FOR OTHER COUNTRIES TO MATCH, BECAUSE OF OUR HISTORY AND OUR WHAKAPAPA AND OUR CULTURAL CONNECTION. AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE TRYING TO CAPITALISE ON THAT AS A DIPLOMATIC STRATEGY IN THE PACIFIC. IT IS WHO WE ARE, AND SO` IT IS HELPFUL. IT IS A POINT OF DIFFERENCE. IT IS CERTAINLY A POINT OF DIFFERENCE WITH REGARDS TO OUR CONNECTION TO THE PACIFIC. IN TERMS OF CHINA'S STRATEGY IN THE PACIFIC, DID YOU SEE THE $80 MILLION STADIUM BEING BUILT IN HONIARA? A GIFT FROM BEIJING? THEY ARE SUPPORTING WITH THE PACIFIC GAMES THAT ARE COMING UP IN NOVEMBER. IT IS NOT THE FIRST TIME, AND THERE IS A LONG HISTORY OF CHINA SUPPORTING WITH INFRASTRUCTURE ACROSS THE PACIFIC. AGAIN, THOSE ARE THE CHOICES OF SOVEREIGN NATIONS, AND SO THAT IS NOT FOR NEW ZEALAND TO GET INVOLVED IN, BECAUSE THOSE ARE NOT OUR DECISIONS TO TAKE OR MAKE. SURE, BUT THEIR STRATEGY IS OFFERING FREE MONEY, BUT AS THE AUSTRALIANS SAY, AS THE BRITISH SAY, YOUR COUNTERPARTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THERE ARE STRINGS ATTACHED, AREN'T THERE, MINISTER? LOOK, WE WERE THERE TO MAKE ANNOUNCEMENTS ON FUNDING WE WERE INVESTING INTO THE PACIFIC, AND SO CONVERSATIONS WITH PACIFIC LEADERS ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES' INVESTMENTS WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS ON THE TABLE. WE WERE THERE TO TALK CLIMATE CHANGE, WE WERE THERE TO TALK EDUCATION, AND YOUTH INVESTMENTS. WE WERE THERE TO TALK LABOUR MOBILITY, AND TO BE FAIR, REBECCA, AND THIS IS THE COMPLETE HONEST TRUTH OF THE MATTER, CLIMATE CHANGE, ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY, LABOUR MOBILITY, THOSE WERE THE SUBJECTS THAT WE TRAVERSED MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. DID YOU TALK ABOUT CHINA? WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT CHINA, ACTUALLY, TO BE HONEST. I DON'T THINK WE DID. AUKUS DID COME UP. OK. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THAT TOO IN A SECOND. BUT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT CHINA? NO, I DON'T THINK THAT ACTUALLY WAS DISCUSSED. THAT'S THE TRUTH. AT ALL? NO, AS I SAID, CLIMATE CHANGE WAS THE NUMBER ONE THING. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, LABOUR MOBILITY, ALL OF THOSE THINGS. BUT IT IS AN ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM OUT THERE, ISN'T IT? WHAT IS CHINA'S STRATEGY IN THE PACIFIC EXACTLY? I AM NOT GOING TO SPEAK FOR CHINA'S STRATEGY. BUT YOU CAN SEE IT, THOUGH, AND YOU ARE COUNTERING IT WITH OUR FOREIGN AFFAIRS POLICY. THE GEOPOLITICAL OR GEOSTRATEGIC COMPETITION IN THE REGION IS REAL. WE HAVE OUR RELATIONSHIP. WE ARE NOT THERE TO DICTATE TO PACIFIC COUNTRIES WHO THEY CAN HAVE PARTNERSHIPS WITH. WE JUST NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR RELATIONSHIP IS STRONG. CHINA` THIS IS HAPPENING ON OUR BACK DOOR STEP. WE HAVE THE WORLD'S SUPERPOWERS LINING UP. IT IS ONE OF THE HOTTEST REGIONS AT THE MOMENT, AND THAT IS EVIDENCED BY THE UK, THE U.S., AUSTRALIA, OURSELVES, BEATING A PATH DOWN TO THE PACIFIC, PARTICULARLY SINCE THAT SECURITY ARRANGEMENT WAS PUT IN PLACE. AND THAT IS BECAUSE CHINA SEES THE PACIFIC AS KEY TO ITS RETAKING OF TAIWAN, DOESN'T IT? IT IS BIG AND IT IS IMPORTANT WHAT IS GOING ON DOWN THERE, AND IT INVOLVES US. I CAN'T SAY THIS ENOUGH, REBECCA. IT WAS NOT A DISCUSSION THAT WAS HAD OVER THE COURSE OF THE WEEK WHEN I WAS WITH THE PACIFIC` BUT YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN BRIEFED ON THIS. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE OF. WE DID TALK ABOUT THE OTHER PARTNERS IN THE REGION ` THE U.S., AUSTRALIA, THE UK, HAVING MORE OF A PRESENCE IS WELCOMED. WE ARE ALL ABOUT WORKING TOGETHER TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR PACIFIC REGION IS SAFE, IT'S SECURE, THAT WE ARE WORKING COHERENTLY TOGETHER, BECAUSE OF THE SHARED CHALLENGES LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE THAT WE FACE. AND SO THOSE WERE THE DISCUSSIONS THAT WERE HAD. BUT THIS MUST ALSO BE FRONT OF MIND FOR YOU, AS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, AND YOUR ROLE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PACIFIC, AND YOU SEE DOWN THERE CHINA DOING SECURITY DEALS, BECAUSE FEASIBLY, ANY NAVAL BASE ` IT WANTS A NAVAL FOOTHOLD DOWN THERE, THAT IS CLEAR. BUT ANY NAVAL BASE OR SECURITY DOWN THERE IN THE PACIFIC, THIS IS A GOING CONCERN TO NEW ZEALAND, TOO, COULD BE USED AS DETERRENTS WITH RETAKING TAIWAN. AS I SAID` ARE YOU NOT CONSIDERING THESE THINGS? AS I SAID, THERE IS THE PRESENCE OF A NUMBER OF PEOPLE OPERATING IN THE PACIFIC. WE ARE VERY AWARE OF THE GEOSTRATEGIC COMPETITION. HOWEVER, OUR FOCUS HAS TO BE ON OUR CONTRIBUTION TO THE REGION, THE WAY THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH OUR NEIGHBOURS, AND THAT IS WHAT I WAS THERE TO REINFORCE. I HAVE TO SAY, THE WAY WE WERE RECEIVED WAS INCREDIBLY HUMBLING. IT WAS A REMINDER TO ME AS DEPUTY LEADER AND AS A FOREIGN AFFAIRS ASSOCIATE MINISTER, THAT WE DO HAVE STRONG RELATIONSHIPS. THERE IS A LONG HISTORY HERE, AND THAT WAS THE PRIMARY CONSIDERATION FOR US BEING THERE. CERTAINLY, BUT WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS? IS IT BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO UPSET CHINA? IT IS BECAUSE, AS A JOURNALIST, YOU ARE PUTTING TO ME THAT THIS IS THE PRIMARY CONSIDERATION. NO, IT IS A CONSIDERATION. I AM TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT WERE RAISED AS PRIMARY CONSIDERATIONS, AND SO I HAVE JUST DONE FIVE DAYS IN THE PACIFIC. I AM QUITE KEEN TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT WERE RAISED BY THE LEADERS THAT WERE OF IMPORTANCE. CERTAINLY, BUT I AM TALKING TO YOU ABOUT THE MASSIVE MACRO ISSUE THAT IS LOOMING OVER OUR REGION. IT IS A GOING CONCERN FOR OUR COUNTRY; IT AS A GOING CONCERN FOR OUR PARTNERS. AND I AM SAYING, WHY WON'T YOU TALK ABOUT THAT? I AM TALKING ABOUT IT. VERY, VERY` I AM TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE WAYS THAT I AM QUITE COMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT IT, AND IN TERMS OF WHAT OUR TRIP MEANT WHEN WE WERE OVER THERE, REBECCA. WHAT IS UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT IT? I THINK THAT WHAT I AM SAYING IS FAIR. EVERY PACIFIC COUNTRY HAS A RIGHT TO FORM RELATIONSHIPS WITH WHO THEY WOULD LIKE TO. WE JUST WANT TO BE KEY IN THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT THEY HAVE. ALSO, KEEP IN MIND, WE HAVE A IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, JUST LIKE OTHER PACIFIC COUNTRIES DO. OURS IS LONG-STANDING. I THINK WE GAVE GOT 50 YEARS OF TRADE UNDER OUR BELTS WITH CHINA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO RECOGNISE THAT IT IS NOT ONLY SMALLER PACIFIC ISLAND STATES THAT MAY HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA; WE DO TOO. WE ARE WORKING GLOBALLY HERE. SO WE DON'T WANT TO UPSET THEM BY ALIGNING TOO CLOSELY, OR CRITIQUING WHAT THEY ARE UP TO IN THE PACIFIC. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID, REBECCA. WELL, I AM ASKING YOU. I AM SPEAKING TO WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO US ON THE MISSION, AND WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO US WAS AOTEAROA'S CONNECTION TO THE PACIFIC. IT IS NOT OTHER PEOPLE'S RELATIONSHIPS. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR RELATIONSHIP IS STRONG. HOW FAR AHEAD ARE YOU THINKING? WE KNOW THAT CHINA THINKS 50 TO 100 YEARS AHEAD. HOW FAR AHEAD ARE WE THINKING WITH OUR STRATEGY IN THE PACIFIC? WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING AT HOW ARE THINGS NOW. WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE A 50 TO 100 YEAR PLAN AHEAD. IT IS REALLY` WE PRETTY MUCH GO THREE TO FOUR YEARS AT A TIME WITH ANY STRATEGY THAT WE PUT IN PLACE. DOES THAT HOLD US BACK, BECAUSE THAT IS VERY SHORT-TERM THINKING, ISN'T IT? WE ARE VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON THE NOW. WHEN WE THINK OF THINGS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE THEN OF COURSE WE ARE THINKING MUCH FURTHER AHEAD, BUT WE HAVE TO BE ACTING QUICKLY, SO WE CAN'T THINK ABOUT MEASURES THAT WE ARE GOING TO PUT IN PLACE FIVE YEARS OR 10 YEARS FROM NOW. WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHAT IS POSSIBLE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE URGENCY OF THE ISSUE. YOU HAVE BEFORE MENTIONED AUKUS CAME UP. I AM KEEN TO HEAR ABOUT THAT ` HOW DID IT COME UP? IT CAME UP MOSTLY BECAUSE THE MEDIA WERE ASKING US ABOUT IT. IT WAS QUITE INTERESTING BECAUSE AT THE MEETINGS WITH LEADERS, WE WERE VERY COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE WERE DISCUSSING PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE THE THINGS THAT WE WERE ASKED ABOUT. AND SO SURE ENOUGH, WE WERE ALL ASKED FOR OUR POSITION ON AUKUS. I WAS REALLY CLEAR, AND I THINK THE OTHER LEADERS WERE TOO ` AGAIN, THAT GEOSTRATEGIC COMPETITION ` BUT ALSO THAT AUSTRALIA, THE UK, AND THE U.S. ARE TRUSTED PARTNERS. THERE WERE PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT OF NERVOUSNESS WHENEVER THE WORD 'NUCLEAR' GETS MENTIONED... YES. ...BY SOME OF OUR LEADERS, BUT CERTAINLY AT LEAST, THE TONGAN PRIME MINISTER WAS TALKING ABOUT A LEVEL OF COMFORT WITH WHAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED TO DATE. OK, SO, IF WE JOINED AUKUS, THAT WOULD BE A MAJOR STICKING POINT FOR THE PACIFIC, WOULDN'T IT, BECAUSE OF THE PACIFIC NUCLEAR FREE TREATY OF 1986? WOULD THE PACIFIC THINK WE WEREN'T LISTENING TO THEM? WELL, I HAVE TAKEN A LOOK AT THE RAROTONGA TREATY, AND I THINK THE THING TO NOTE THERE IS THAT THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT NUCLEAR PROPULSION. IT IS ABOUT THE MANUFACTURING, THE TESTING, THE CARRYING OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. AND THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT TO NUCLEAR PROPELLED SUBMARINES. SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT WHAT IS WITHIN SCOPE. WE, OF COURSE, AS A COUNTRY, STILL HAVE OUR NUCLEAR-FREE ZONE, AND SO WE DON'T ALLOW EVEN NUCLEAR PROPELLED SUBMARINES INTO OUR WATERS. BUT MANY ARE ALREADY MOVING ABOUT THE PACIFIC, AND IT IS TOTALLY RELIANT ON THE INDIVIDUAL VIEW AND DECISION-MAKING OF THE SOVEREIGN NATIONS. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU'VE FOUND A SORT OF WORKAROUND, THAT IF WE GOT INTO AUKUS, WE COULD TAKE THE PACIFIC WITH US? IT IS NOT A WORKAROUND, REBECCA. IT IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE HAVE SIGNED UP TO HERE, AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DO READ THE DETAIL OF THAT. BUT THAT DOESN'T PROHIBIT US FROM SIGNING UP TO AUKUS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE NUCLEAR ISSUE, IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. WE HAVE RULED OUT, OF COURSE, THE TIER 1 INVOLVEMENT WHICH INCLUDES THE NUCLEAR ISSUE. NO CONSIDERATION AT THIS STAGE, OR DECISIONS HAVE BEEN TAKEN, ON WHETHER WE JOIN AT ANOTHER LEVEL. YOU KNOW, PERHAPS THE INFORMATION SHARING TIER, OR CAPACITY BUILDING TIER. WE ACTUALLY HAVEN'T HAD THOSE DISCUSSIONS. THE MILITARY CAPABILITY BUILDING TIER. THOSE DISCUSSIONS WILL UNDOUBTEDLY COME UP WITH PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS IN AUSTRALIA THIS WEEKEND. IF WE HAD TO CHOOSE` YOU KNOW, I'M COMING BACK, I'M WRAPPING THIS UP INTO OUR GEOSTRATEGIC` HEIGHTENED GEOSTRATEGIC COMPETITION. SURE. IF WE HAD TO CHOOSE, NEW ZEALAND WOULD GO WITH AUSTRALIA, THE UK, AND U.S., WOULDN'T WE? IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE US LINING UP WITH CHINA AND THE SOLOMON ISLANDS, BUT IS THE PLAN TO TAKE THE PACIFIC WITH US INTO AUKUS? WE HAVE NO PLAN FOR AUKUS AT THIS POINT IN TIME, SO IT WOULD BE PREMATURE OF ME TO SPEAK TO THAT. BUT WE ARE OPEN TO IT, AREN'T WE? I AM NOT THE DEFENCE MINISTER AND I HAVE NOT BEEN ENGAGED IN ANY OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS TO THAT EXTENT. SO IT WOULD BE A WRONG FOR ME TO EVEN SPEAK TO THAT. WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS MAKE SURE, AS I'VE SAID EARLIER, THAT OUR RELATIONSHIP IS THE STRONGEST THAT IT CAN BE IN THE PACIFIC REGION WITH OUR PACIFIC PARTNERS. WE HAVE SHARED CHALLENGES. WE HAVE TO BE WORKING TOGETHER AND ABSOLUTELY IN COLLABORATION IN RESPONSE TO THOSE, AND THAT IS WHAT THE MISSION WAS ABOUT, AND THAT IS THE FOCUS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP FOR WHAT IS OUR PRIORITY REGION, WHICH IS THE PACIFIC REGION. A REALLY QUICK ONE FOR YOU, BECAUSE WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME. COULD PART OF THAT COLLABORATION WITH THE PACIFIC ALSO BE A COLLABORATION WITH CHINA DOWN THERE? WE HAVE DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS WITH CHINA, INCLUDING OUR TRADE RELATIONSHIP. BUT IN THE PACIFIC, COULD WE COLLABORATE WITH THEM DOWN THERE? I AM NOT SURE WHETHER WE HAVE GOT ANY PARTICULAR DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS THAT WE ARE WORKING ON WITH CHINA, BUT I DO KNOW THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH JAPAN, THE U.S., AUSTRALIA, ON WORK IN PAPUA NEW GUINEA. OUR TRADITIONAL ALLIES. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE IS ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMMES WHERE WE ARE IN PARTNERSHIP WITH CHINA SUPPORTING THE PACIFIC. THERE MAY BE, I AM NOT SURE. OK, WELL, YOU ARE OPEN TO AUKUS, AND YOU ARE OPEN TO WORKING WITH CHINA IN THE PACIFIC. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER CARMEL SEPULONI. THANK YOU. A MURI AKE NEI. COMING UP NEXT ` MP FOR SELWYN NICOLA GRIGG IS A NEW FACE FOR NATIONAL, AND SHE IS OUT THERE DEFENDING AN OLD PRACTICE ` LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS ` AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. TWO YEARS AGO, AGRICULTURE MINISTER DAMIEN O'CONNOR ANNOUNCED NEW ZEALAND WOULD STOP EXPORTING LIVE ANIMALS BY SEA. HE SAID IT POSED AN UNACCEPTABLE RISK TO OUR REPUTATION IN A WORLD WHERE ANIMAL WELFARE WAS UNDER INCREASING SCRUTINY. BUT NOW THERE'S A PLOT TWIST ` NATIONAL ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THAT IT WANTS TO REVIVE THE PRACTICE. MP FOR SELWYN AND NATIONAL'S SPOKESPERSON FOR ANIMAL WELFARE, NICOLA GRIGG JOINS US NOW FROM CHRISTCHURCH. WELCOME, NICOLA. MORNING. GOOD MORNING. I JUST WANT TO QUICKLY` RESURRECTING LIVE EXPORTS SEEMS A LITTLE COUNTER-INTUITIVE AS A CAMPAIGN FOR THE ANIMAL WELFARE SPOKESPERSON? YES, I CAN ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND WHY. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT OUT IN THE INDUSTRY, THERE ARE GOOD OPERATORS AND BAD OPERATORS. MPI HAS BEEN OPERATING WITHOUT ANY FORMAL REGULATION` REGULATORY FRAMEWORK, AND OPERATORS ARE OPERATING WITHOUT ANY FORMAL REGULATORY FRAMEWORK. HENCE THE BAD ONES DO SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS. I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE NEW ZEALANDERS DO HAVE QUITE A BIT OF CONCERN AROUND THIS INDUSTRY. WE HAVE ALL SEEN HORRIFIC IMAGERY OF CATTLE ON BOATS UP TO THEIR KNEES IN EXCREMENT, AND OF COURSE WE ALL HEARD ABOUT THE GULF LIVESTOCK SINKING. BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THAT BOAT WAS NOT A CUSTOM-BUILT BOAT, IT WAS NOT OPERATING TO ANY FORMAL LEGISLATIVE REQUIREMENT, AND IT WAS A DREADFUL MARITIME DISASTER IN WHICH TWO NEW ZEALANDERS LOST THEIR LIVES. CERTAINLY. WHEN YOU SAY THERE ARE SOME BAD OPERATORS OUT THERE, AND THAT YOU DON'T LIKE THESE BOATS, THESE CONVERTED CONTAINER SHIPS, THAT ARE SHIPPING OUR ANIMALS IN, YOU SAY, WAYS THAT COMPROMISE THEIR ANIMAL WELFARE OF THOSE ON BOARD, BUT 90% OF THE ANIMALS THAT WE EXPORTED TO CHINA IN 2022 WERE ON THOSE BOATS. 90%. ARE THEY ALL BAD APPLES? I WOULDN'T SAY THEY ARE ALL BAD APPLES` WELL, I HOPE NOT. BUT AS I SAID EARLIER, NOBODY HAS HAD ANY STRINGENT REGULATIONS THEY HAVE HAD TO STICK TO. IF WE WERE TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, WE WANT TO AMEND THIS ANIMAL WELFARE AMENDMENT ACT THAT HAS BANNED THE TRADE. WE WOULD IMPLEMENT WHAT'S CALLED A GOLD STANDARD. WE HAVE BEEN WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE AUSTRALIAN EXPORTERS ON THIS, AND THEY'VE IMPLEMENTED IT THEMSELVES. THE BOTTOM LINE OF THAT GOLD STANDARD IS THAT ONLY CUSTOM-BUILT SHIPS CAN LAND IN NEW ZEALAND AND DEPART WITH OUR ANIMALS ON BOARD. I WENT TO NAPIER LAST WEEK AND GOT ON BOARD A DUTCH-BUILT VESSEL CALLED THE GELBRAY EXPRESS, IT'S A $100 MILLION CUSTOM-BUILT SHIP. I WAS SO IMPRESSED WITH IT, I'VE GOT ABSOLUTELY NO CONCERNS NOW AT ALL ABOUT THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF OUR ANIMALS BEING TRANSFERRED BY SEA` CERTAINLY,... WE SAW SPECIAL DRAINS` BUT ONLY 10% OF THE ANIMALS THAT GO TO CHINA GO ON THOSE BOATS. SO WHY ARE WE OUT HERE DEFENDING AND PROMOTING THAT 10% OF THE INDUSTRY IF 90% OF THE INDUSTRY IS NOT GETTING IT RIGHT, AND PUTTING ANIMALS IN THOSE HORRIFIC CONDITIONS? I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, AND IT COMES DOWN TO COSTS. THERE ARE GOOD EXPORTERS AND GOOD IMPORTERS WHO ARE PREPARED TO GO TO THE EXPENSE OF USING THESE PARTICULAR SHIPS, AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY WILL BE THE ONLY SHIPS THAT ARE ALLOWED TO LAND HERE. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE ABOUT CHINA'S DEMAND FOR OUR PROTEIN. THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, CAN ONLY SUSTAINABLY FEED ABOUT 60% OF ITS POPULATION. SO THEY'RE LOOKING TO GROW THEIR OWN-FARM PROVISION` BUT THESE ARE ARGUMENTS PUT UP BY THE INDUSTRY AS TO WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP IT GOING, BUT I'M INTERESTED IN HOW YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT IN A HUMANE WAY AS THE ANIMAL WELFARE SPOKESPERSON. YOU WANT TO SET UP MONITORING, THIS GOLD STANDARD AS YOU CALL IT, YOU WANT TO SET UP MONITORING FOR THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ANIMALS FOR THEIR THREE-WEEK VOYAGE AT SEA, FOR THEIR TIME IN CHINESE QUARANTINE WHEN THEY ARRIVE IN MULTIPLE PORTS RIGHT ACROSS CHINA, ACROSS THEIR TRANSPORT, SOMETIMES FOR HUNDREDS OF KILOMETRES, TO THE PLACE THEY WILL EVENTUALLY LAND, THESE FARMS WHICH COULD BE SPREAD RIGHT ACROSS CHINA. YOU WANT TO DO THIS FOR 130,000 ANIMALS, THAT WERE DONE LAST YEAR? YOU ARE BASICALLY SETTING UP A NEW ZEALAND REGULATORY FRAMEWORK IN CHINA. YES, WE ARE. THAT IS TO DO WITH OUR TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA. CHINA WANTS OUR PROTEIN. I DO BELIEVE CHINA WILL MEET THE EXPECTATIONS WE ARE LOOKING TO IMPLEMENT. I DON'T FOR A MINUTE BELIEVE THAT ALL ANIMALS ARE TREATED BADLY IN CHINA, AND I DO CHALLENGE THAT PERCEPTION, BECAUSE NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE GOT TO START ASKING WHY THEY THINK THAT. THE FARMS THAT I'VE OBSERVED, AND I'VE CERTAINLY COMMITTED TO THE INDUSTRY` YOU'VE BEEN TO THE FARMS IN CHINA? BEG YOUR PARDON? YOU'VE BEEN TO THE FARMS IN CHINA? I HAVEN'T BEEN. I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SAY, WERE I TO BE THE MINISTER FOR ANIMAL WELFARE, I WILL GO UP TO CHINA AND HAVE A LOOK AT THESE FARMS FOR MYSELF. THE OTHER THING WE WOULD IMPLEMENT APART FROM REGULATING FURTHER CUSTOM-BUILT SHIPS ONLY, IS AN IMPORTER LICENSING REGIME, WHEREBY CHINESE IMPORTERS AND FARMERS WHO WANT OUR PRODUCT HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED BY MPI THAT THEY MEET ANIMAL WELFARE STANDARDS. THAT INCLUDES FOOD AND WATER PROVISION, SAFETY OF THE ANIMALS, SHELTER, AND SO ON. NICOLA` THEY WILL BE ACCREDITED BY OUR MPI` NO, I JUST WANT TO FINISH THIS, SORRY, REBECCA, THEY WILL BE ACCREDITED BY OUR MPI STAFF IN-COUNTRY, AND WE CAN FURTHER OVERLAY THAT WITH AN INTERNATIONAL ACCREDITATION AGENCY LIKE QUALITY ASSURE. SO THEN NEW ZEALANDERS WILL HAVE COMFORT IN THE FACT THAT NEW ZEALAND STOCK GOING TO CHINA ARE GOING TO BE TREATED TO THE SAME CONDITIONS AS THEY WOULD ON-FARM IN NEW ZEALAND. THIS IS A HUGE LOGISTICS EXERCISE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, BOTH HERE BUT MOSTLY IN CHINA, WHICH IS ANOTHER SOVEREIGN COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY ANIMAL WELFARE LAWS, AS YOU'LL BE AWARE. IS IT REALISTIC? IS THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT ON BOARD? MPI SAYS IT DOESN'T HAVE JURISDICTION AND CANNOT REQUIRE VERIFICATION OF ANIMAL WELFARE AFTER ANIMALS ARRIVE? BUT IT CAN REQUIRE IT IF THESE FARMERS AND IMPORTERS WERE TO BE SEEKING CERTIFICATION TO IMPORT OUR ANIMALS. EQUALLY THERE IS OPPORTUNITY FOR MPI TO WORK IN WITH OUR OFFSHORE COUNTERPARTS, PARTICULARLY ON THE LIKES OF CHINESE QUARANTINE FACILITIES, AS YOU'VE SUGGESTED. AND AGAIN, I WANT TO PUSH BACK ON THIS PERCEPTION THAT CHINESE FARMERS ARE CRUEL TO THEIR ANIMALS, OR THE CHINESE SYSTEM IS CRUEL TO ITS ANIMALS` IT'S A MASSIVE, MASSIVE ASSUMPTION. THAT'S NOT A PERCEPTION, IT IS JUST A FACT THAT THERE ARE NO ANIMAL WELFARE LAWS IN CHINA, SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL BE AWARE OF. BUT NOR ARE THERE IN AMERICA. THAT'S THE INTERESTING THING. THERE IS NOT AN ANIMAL WELFARE ACT IN AMERICA, AND YET NEW ZEALANDERS DON'T SEEM TO MIND OUR ANIMALS GOING UP THERE. SO REALLY HAVE TO QUESTION OUR UNDERLYING ASSUMPTIONS. DO WE EXPORT LIVE ANIMALS TO AMERICA? WE DON'T, DO WE? NOT AS FAR AS I AM AWARE, BUT THAT IS THE POINT. PEOPLE DON'T CHALLENGE IT. BUT THAT IS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT EXPORTING THEM THERE, NICOLA. HOW MANY MPI OFFICERS DO YOU THINK WILL BE REQUIRED TO SET UP THIS OPERATION IN CHINA? I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL YOU OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, SORRY, REBECCA. WE HAVE PEOPLE IN OUR POSTS AROUND CHINA, AND IT'S VERY EASY TO GET THEM UP INTO MARKET IF WE WERE TO GO THROUGH THIS FIRST ROUND OF AUDITING AND CERTIFICATION AND ACCREDITATION. HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET THOSE CUSTOM-BUILT BOATS UP AND RUNNING? THERE'S ALREADY 15 OF THEM OPERATING BY THIS ONE PARTICULAR DUTCH COMPANY THAT I'VE MET, AND I THINK THERE ARE ABOUT 20 WORLDWIDE. THEY ALSO NEED SOME SURETY FROM THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT THAT WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS, SO THAT THEY CAN CONTINUE THEIR INVESTMENT IN THESE $100m SHIPS. SO THAT WE CAN LEAD THE WORLD IN SHOWING EVERYONE HOW WE CAN SAFELY AND HUMANELY TRANSFER ANIMALS BY WATER. AND WHY DO WE WANT TO DO THAT, EXACTLY, WHEN OUR TRADING PARTNERS AND COMPETITORS, ACTUALLY, IN THE TRADE SPACE, LIKE AUSTRALIA AND THE UK, ARE LOOKING AT BANNING OR HAVE PLANS TO BAN THEIR LIVE EXPORT TRADE TOO? A COUPLE OF REASONS. ALL OF OUR TRADE PARTNERS EXPORT LIVE ANIMALS. NO ONE THAT I AM AWARE OF IS ACTUALLY LOOKING TO BAN IT. AUSTRALIANS HAVE SUGGESTED BANNING THE LIVE EXPORTS OF SHEEP UP TO THE MIDDLE EAST, WHICH NEW ZEALAND WOULD AGREE WITH, GIVEN WE'VE ALREADY DONE IT, BUT THEY WON'T BAN THE LIVE EXPORT OF CATTLE. THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN AUSTRALIA HAS COMMITTED THAT TO THE CATTLE INDUSTRY. THE OTHER PART IS WE HAVE AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM HERE IN NEW ZEALAND WITH AN EXCESS OF 130,000 BOBBY CALVES A YEAR, WHICH ARE EXCESS TO THE INTERNAL SUPPLY SYSTEM. THESE TEND TO BE THE SECOND-TIER GRADE OF GENETICS IN LIVESTOCK, THAT ARE THE MOMENT, QUITE FRANKLY, ARE GOING TO BE CULLED. WHY WOULD YOU NOT TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE THESE ANIMALS A LONG AND PRODUCTIVE LIFE BY PUTTING THEM ON A BOAT, A CUSTOM-BUILT BOAT WHERE THEY ARE TREATED REALLY REALLY WELL, ON THE WATER, UP TO A DESTINATION FARM, WHERE AGAIN, THEY ARE TREATED REALLY WELL, SO THEY CAN LIVE A FULL AND PRODUCTIVE LIFE, AND FEED A NATION THAT IS LOOKING TO BUILD ITS RAPIDLY-GROWING POPULATION WITH GOOD, SAFE, HEALTHY NEW ZEALAND PROTEIN. THIS SOUNDS EXACTLY WHAT THE INDUSTRY IS SAYING, NICOLA. I HAVE ONE FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU. A REAL PINCH POINT FOR ANIMAL WELFARE, PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONCERNS FOR ANIMAL WELFARE, IS WHEN THEY ARE SLAUGHTERED, WOULD YOU ALSO BE REGULATING THAT, AND MONITORING AND INSPECTING THAT, THAT THEY ARE ONLY SLAUGHTERED, SAY, FOUR OR FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, IN A HUMANE WAY, BECAUSE THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR CHINA TO DO THAT AT THE MOMENT. NO, THAT'S NOT QUITE CORRECT. THE CHINESE ABATTOIRS, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, OPERATE TO THE SAME SYSTEM AS NEW ZEALAND ABATTOIRS` IT IS ENCOURAGED, BUT IT IS NOT REQUIRED. YES, BUT THEY ARE STUNNED BEFORE THEY ARE KILLED, LIKE THEY ARE IN NEW ZEALAND. NOT ALWAYS, THOUGH, NICOLA. THAT IS WHAT THE MONITORING AND REGULATION WOULD PROBABLY ACHIEVE. WELL, I HAVEN'T BEEN MADE AWARE THAT IT'S NOT ALWAYS, I HAVE BEEN MADE AWARE THAT THEY DO EUTHANISE TO THE SAME STANDARDS AS NEW ZEALAND. OKAY, WELL MAYBE WE WILL LOOK INTO THAT. GOOD LUCK WITH THE PLAN, NICOLA. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION. THANK YOU. E WHAI AKE NEI, COMING UP ` A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE LOOPHOLE THAT'S ALLOWING ONLINE GAMBLING SITES TO AGGRESSIVELY TARGET KIWIS. PLUS ` THE MINISTER WHO TOOK BOTH AN INTERNATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL PATH TO PARLIAMENT ON BACKSTORY. WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, WHERE WE TAKE YOU BEHIND THE SCENES AND INSIDE THE HOMES AND PRIVATE LIVES OF OUR MP'S. MINISTER PRIYANCA RADHAKRISHNAN TOOK AN INTERNATIONAL PATH TO PARLIAMENT FROM INDIA THROUGH SINGAPORE AND PALMERSTON NORTH, IN THE END. NEWSHUB NATION JOINED HER AT HOME WITH HER BELOVED DOGS TO HEAR HER BACKSTORY. SO I WAS BORN IN CHENNAI, IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF INDIA, AND MY FIRST MIGRATION EXPERIENCE WAS AT THE TENDER AGE OF THREE MONTHS WHEN WE MOVED TO SINGAPORE, WHERE MY PARENTS WERE WORKING. GROWING UP IN SINGAPORE ` IT'S SAFE, IT'S SHELTERED, YOU KNOW, YOU DO WHAT'S EXPECTED OF YOU, BUT I REALLY WANTED TO STEP OUTSIDE MY COMFORT ZONE, DID A LOT OF RESEARCH AS TO WHERE I WANTED TO GO, AND I ENDED UP IN PALMERSTON NORTH IN THE MIDDLE OF WINTER. (CHUCKLES) PYJAMAS AT THE SUPERMARKET. YUP, THAT WAS A COMPLETE CULTURE SHOCK. YOU KNOW, I SAW PEOPLE IN ONESIES IN THE SUPERMARKETS, AND IT WAS... QUITE INTERESTING. (CHUCKLES) SO MY DAD IS A CIVIL ENGINEER ` I SAY IS BECAUSE HE STILL IS. HE TRIED RETIRING, WASN'T FOR HIM. HE TURNED 80 LAST YEAR. HE'S A HARD WORKER, SO I THINK I'VE LEARNT WORK ETHIC FROM HIM. MY MUM WAS AMAZING. SHE WAS THE FIRST FEMINIST I EVER KNEW. SHE WAS OF THE GENERATION, I GUESS, WHERE YOU WEREN'T YOUR CHILDREN'S FRIEND GROWING UP ` YOU WERE THEIR PARENT, AND SHE DEFINITELY PARENTED US. BUT AS I GREW OLDER, SHE RELAXED A LOT MORE AND THE RELATIONSHIP CHANGED TO ONE OF FRIENDSHIP. SHE WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS VERY STAUNCH ABOUT INTEGRITY AND TELLING THE TRUTH. EVEN IF IT'S DIFFICULT, TELL THE TRUTH. YOU KNOW, I'VE LOST HER, AND SO A PART OF HER, I GUESS, IS ALWAYS WITH ME. IT WAS BEFORE COVID, WHICH ACTUALLY WAS A BLESSING BECAUSE BY THEN, SHE WAS BEDRIDDEN AND SHE HAD 24/7 CARE, AND THROUGH COVID, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY DIFFICULT. TRYING NOT TO CRY. (CHUCKLES) BUT YEAH, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT SEEING SOMEONE YOU LOVE JUST WASTE AWAY. IT'S KIND OF SAD AND FUNNY AT THE SAME TIME, BUT WHEN I GOT INTO PARLIAMENT AND IT WAS THE TIME FOR MY MAIDEN SPEECH, SHE REALLY WANTED TO COME, BUT SHE COULDN'T TRAVEL. SHE HAD PARKINSON'S AND EARLY-ONSET DEMENTIA, AND SO MY DAD WOULD SORT OF WALK INTO THE ROOM AND SEE HER GETTING READY AND ASK HER WHERE SHE WAS GOING, AND SHE KIND OF CONFLATED THINGS, AND SHE WOULD SAY SHE WAS GOING TO BUCKINGHAM PALACE TO WATCH MY MAIDEN SPEECH, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, AND SHE WOULD TELL PEOPLE ON THE STREETS THAT HER DAUGHTER WAS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT IN NEW ZEALAND AND EVERYONE THOUGHT SHE WAS MAKING THINGS UP. BUT I THINK SHE'D BE` I LIKE TO THINK SHE'D BE PROUD. (WHISTLES) HEY. GOOD DOGGIES. OH, IT'S WHEN I KNOW I'M HOME, REALLY. I OPEN THE DOOR, AND THESE TWO JUST COME CHARGING AT ME FOR CUDDLES, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE JUST THE MOST EXCITED TO SEE YOU. I MEAN, LIKE, THE HUSBAND'S A BIT EXCITED, BUT THE DOGS (CHUCKLES) JUST GO ABSOLUTELY INSANE. EWAN AND I, MY HUSBAND AND I, JOKE THAT WE HAD AN ARRANGED MARRIAGE, BECAUSE WE HAD A FRIEND IN COMMON WHO BASICALLY SET US UP, AND SHE SAID TO ME QUITE SOME YEARS AGO NOW, I WAS AT THE TIME MOVING FROM AUCKLAND TO WELLINGTON FOR WORK, AND SHE SAID, 'OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT SEEING ANYBODY. 'I'M GOING TO SET YOU UP WITH SOMEONE.' AND SHE SHOWED ME PICTURES OF HER COUSIN AND A FRIEND OF HERS AND SAID, 'PICK ONE.' (CHUCKLES) HE WAS JUST THE KINDEST, GENTLEST PERSON THAT I'D MET, AND I REALLY, I REALLY LIKED THAT, BUT HE WAS ALSO THOUGHTFUL AND HE WAS SMART, SO TICKED A NUMBER OF BOXES. I'D ALWAYS BEEN A COMMITMENT-PHOBE. WE'D BOUGHT A HOUSE WITHIN NINE MONTHS OF MEETING. (LAUGHS) THAT'S PROBABLY A SIGN AS WELL. SO TOOK THAT AS A GOOD SIGN, YEAH. SO SOMETIMES I THINK OF MYSELF AS A BIT OF AN ACCIDENTAL POLITICIAN, BUT I FEEL` YOU KNOW, THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING SOMEONE WHO'S MIGRATED TO A COUNTRY, AND THEN GETS TO REPRESENT THIS COUNTRY AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF DECISION MAKING IS, I THINK, IT SAYS MORE ABOUT NEW ZEALAND, FRANKLY, AND NEW ZEALANDERS, AND THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN NEW ZEALAND THAN IT DOES ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. I ALSO COME FROM A MATRIARCHAL COMMUNITY AND A LONG LINE OF STRONG WOMEN. BUT GETTING INTO PARLIAMENT, SORT OF WALKING DOWN THESE CORRIDORS WITH, YOU KNOW, OLD PHOTOGRAPHS AND IT'S ORNATE, IT'S BEAUTIFUL, THERE'S A SENSE OF ALMOST SANCTITY. IT WAS QUITE OVERWHELMING, REALLY, TO` I'D WALK AROUND ` I'M ALSO DIRECTIONALLY CHALLENGED. SO I WAS LOST A LOT. I ENDED UP IN THE NATIONAL PARTY CORRIDOR A COUPLE OF TIMES. THEY WERE VERY SWEET THOUGH. THEY'D BE LIKE, 'ARE YOU LOST AGAIN?' (LAUGHS) MY FIRST MEMORY OF A HOME WHEN I WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS OLD, WHILE IT WAS IN SINGAPORE, WAS ON A STREET CALLED ONE TREE HILL, SO IT'S A FULL CIRCLE MOMENT FOR ME TO BE THE MP FOR MAUNGAKIEKIE. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK TO OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` GREEN PARTY MEMBER AND FORMER AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE EFESO COLLINS, AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS JENNIFER CURTIN, AND MANAWATU LAWYER AND MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL PARTY LIAM HEHIR. TENA KOUTOU, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. I WANT TO START WITH THE BIG AND EXCITING NEWS TODAY, WHICH IS THE CITIZENSHIP PATHWAY FOR KIWIS IN AUSTRALIA. THIS IS A BIG TURNAROUND, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO US, ISN'T IT, JENNIFER? ABSOLUTELY, AND AS A DUAL CITIZEN MYSELF, AND MY CHILDREN AND MY HUSBAND AS WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THIS HAS BEEN AN ISSUE THAT AUSTRALIAN ACTIVISTS AND OTHERS IN AUSTRALIA HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR A REALLY LONG TIME. EVEN THOUGH WE'RE FINALLY THERE, AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S OUT OF THE BLUE, AND CERTAINLY HAVING A LABOUR GOVERNMENT ON THAT SIDE OF THE TASMAN, THAT WE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT ALBANESE HAS STARTED TO ADOPT THE LANGUAGE OF KINDNESS. THIS HAS A HUMANE ELEMENT TO IT, THIS CHANGE OF POLICY. I THINK HAVING LABOUR GOVERNMENTS AT FEDERAL LEVEL EVERYWHERE EXCEPT TASMANIA MEANS THERE ISN'T THE SAME PUSHBACK, AND TO BE HONEST, THE WAY IN WHICH IT WAS POLITICISED POST-2001, FOR A WHILE THERE WASN'T THE SAME PUSHBACK FROM HERE. 501S REALLY POLITICISED IT. AND DUTTON AND MORRISON USED THIS ` THE COMBINATION OF THESE THINGS ` TO POLITICISE IT MUCH MORE THAN IT NEEDED TO BE. SO THIS DOES MAKE VERY GOOD COMMON SENSE. THIS WILL PROBABLY SAVE AUSTRALIA A LOT OF MONEY FOR A RANGE OF REASONS, BUT ALSO, THEY GET TO TAKE OUR WORKERS MUCH MORE EASILY IN A TIME WHEN THE EMPLOYMENT MARKET IS VERY TIGHT. THERE WILL BE SOME OUT THERE WHO WILL SAY, 'THAT WILL OPEN UP THE FLOODGATES,' LIAM? AS NEW ZEALANDERS, WE THINK EVERYONE CARES ABOUT OUR OPINION, THAT THE WAY WE ADVOCATE FOR THINGS MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENTS, PARTICULARLY THIS ONE, HAVE BEEN GOOD AT PUSHING THE AGENDA. THERE IS A VIEW ON THE RIGHT FROM SOME THAT IF YOU GO TO AUSTRALIA, YOU LIVE BY THEIR RULES. IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD REALLY BE TOO CONCERNED ABOUT, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S RIGHT. NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENTS HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO PROTECT THE INTEREST OF NEW ZEALANDERS WHEREVER THEY ARE. BUT THERE ARE BIG BENEFITS TO AUSTRALIA FOR THIS. THEY HAVE A SKILL SHORTAGE JUST LIKE US, THE PRIME MINISTER HAS POTENTIALLY UNLOCKED THE SOURCE OF VERY LOYAL VOTES GOING FORWARD. IT IS CERTAINLY WIN-WIN FOR NEW ZEALANDERS AND AUSTRALIA, BUT ALSO FOR AUSTRALIANS TOO. YEAH, AND IT IS THE HUMANE THING TO DO, ISN'T IT, EFESO? THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE LIVED IN AUSTRALIA THERE THEIR WHOLE LIVES BUT DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE SAFETY NETS, WHICH ACTUALLY DEFINE BOTH NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA AND OUR POLITICAL SYSTEMS, DON'T THEY? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, AND IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT YOU GET A SENSE OF BOTH WAYS, WHICHEVER WAY YOU ARE GOING, THAT YOU HAVE A FAIR ADJUSTMENT THAT YOU CAN MAKE IN EITHER COUNTRY. I THINK THAT THIS MOVE SETS A REALLY GOOD PRECEDENT. IT MEANS THAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS STRONG ` FOREIGN AFFAIRS HAS BEEN A BIG DEAL. AND THEY ARE OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBOUR, CONSIDERING WHAT AUSTRALIA OFFERS. AND MANY OF OUR PEOPLE ARE GOING OVER THERE, SO A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP IS REALLY GOOD. EVEN YOUR GUEST WHO WAS BEAMING IN FROM HIS CAR, EVEN THE FACT THAT HE TALKED ABOUT AUSTRALIANS DON'T THINK ABOUT THIS THAT OFTEN. IT WASN'T AN ISSUE HE WAS AWARE OF UNTIL ONLY A YEAR AGO. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US. I THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD MOVE, AND A GREAT SUCCESS. I THINK MANY WILL SEE THIS AS A GREAT SUCCESS STORY. CHRIS HIPKINS WILL BE MEETING ANTHONY ALBANESE IN A FEW HOURS. HE'S FLYING OUT. AUKUS IS GOING TO COME UP, ISN'T IT, JENNIFER? THAT IS GOING TO BE PART OF THEIR CONVERSATION. ABSOLUTELY. I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THE BROADER POLITICAL CONTEXT OF THIS IS 40 YEARS OF CLOSER ECONOMIC RELATIONS, AS WELL AS THE DEFENCE DIMENSION. SO PICKING UP QUICKLY ON THE CHANGE OF CITIZENSHIP RULES, A LOT OF OUR BUSINESSES WILL BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE MAYBE IT WILL LEAD TO THE NEXT STEP OF THOSE WHO GO BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS, THAT MAYBE THOSE APEC FAST TRACK LANES FOR AUSTRALIANS AND NEW ZEALANDERS COULD OPEN UP, AND THOSE WHO TRAVEL FOR WORK COULD BE DOING THAT MUCH QUICKER. BUT CERTAINLY, YES, AUKUS WILL BE ON THE AGENDA. PILLAR TWO, IS REALLY THE ONE, THE NON-NUCLEAR COMPONENT OF THIS TREATY, IS WHAT OUR PEOPLE ARE MOST INTERESTED IN. AND YES, IT IS ABOUT THE CHINA ` U.S. TRADE TENSION, BUT IT IS ABOUT TECHNOLOGY, CYBER SECURITY, AND THAT INTER-OPERABILITY ` TERRIBLE WORD, VERY HARD TO SAY ON LIVE TV. THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER SEEMED TO BE OPEN TO THIS. THERE WAS A LOT SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT, LIAM, BUT THIS IS... THERE IS A BOOK COMING OUT ON NEW ZEALAND-CHINA RELATIONS CALLED 'WALKING THE TIGHTROPE.' WHAT YOU SAW WAS A MASTERCLASS IN TRYING TO WALK THE TIGHTROPE. THERE IS THIS TUG-OF-WAR GOING ON. EFESO, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET USED TO IT IN THE GREEN CAUCUS, I'M AFRAID. BUT CERTAINLY IN THE ENVIRONMENT WHERE NEW ZEALANDERS ARE TRYING TO SPEAK THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS, AND DEFINITELY NOT THROUGH THEIR WORDS. YOU WERE VERY DOGGED ` IT WAS AN IMMOVABLE FORCE MEETING AN IRRESISTIBLE OBJECT OR WHATEVER, BUT YOU SAW SOME REAL TIGHTROPE WALKING. SHE DID NOT WANT TO SAY ANYTHING. WHY IS THAT? WE SEE OUR COUNTERPARTS IN THE U.S., IN AUSTRALIA, AND THE UK SPEAKING FRANKLY ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC. WE DO NOT HEAR THAT FROM NEW ZEALAND. WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. I DON'T KNOW HOW SUSTAINABLE THAT IS GOING TO BE IN THE LONG-TERM. WE ALSO AREN'T UNDER THE SAME DIRECT THREATS. THE CHINESE NAVAL BASE IN THE SOLOMON ISLANDS SITS REALLY CLOSE TO AUSTRALIA. IT IS AN URGENT ISSUE FOR THEM, IN A WAY THAT IT ISN'T QUITE FOR US. I QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN STAY OUTSIDE THE FOLD. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, AND THERE IS MORE PRESSURE FOR US TO COME IN. EFESO, A BIG TRIP FOR CARMEL SEPULONI OUT THERE IN THE PACIFIC, AND AN IMPORTANT ONE FOR US ALL. THIS IDEA OF FAMILY IS OUR STRATEGY NOW, ISN'T IT? IT WAS NOTED IN THE INTERVIEW THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT` I THOUGHT THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER DID REALLY WELL TO TRY AND EXPLAIN THAT. SHE TRIED HER BEST TO KEEP AWAY FROM THE CHINA ISSUE, KEEPING IN MIND THAT SHE WANTED TO ADDRESS THESE PACIFIC NATIONS AS SOVEREIGN STATES, SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT. ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES FOR NEW ZEALAND IS, FOR ME, BEING OF SAMOAN HERITAGE, PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS THAT MFATS BUREAUCRATS OFTEN GET IN THE WAY BETWEEN THE ABILITY TO HAVE DIRECT POLITICIAN-TO-POLITICIAN, LEADER-TO-LEADER CONVERSATION. THAT IS PART OF THE CHALLENGE THERE, IF YOU LOOK AT WHO GOES OVERSEAS. BUT NEW ZEALAND ALSO NEEDS TO CONSIDER THE UN TARGET FOR OVERSEAS AID IS .7 OF GNI ` GROSS NATIONAL INCOME. NEW ZEALAND OPERATES AT .24 AND HAS BEEN OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS. IF NEW ZEALAND WANT TO HAVE A STRONG CONNECTION ` OR STRONGER CONNECTION ` WITH THE PACIFIC, THEY SHOULD DO THEIR BEST TO MEET SOME OF THOSE TARGETS. MAYBE THEN WE WON'T JUST BE HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE $80 MILLION SPORTS STADIUM, OR EVEN IN SAMOA WHERE THEY WERE BUILDING THE JUDICIAL BUILDING. THAT IS THE THING ` WE ARE NEVER GOING TO MATCH THE ASIAN OR THE CHINESE DOLLAR, BUT WE'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SHOW THAT WE WANT TO PROGRESS STRONG RELATIONSHIPS. YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THAT BIDDING WAR, DO WE? I THINK WE WILL LOSE THAT. LIAM, I WANT TO COME AROUND TO YOU, AND ASK YOU ABOUT LIVE EXPORTS AND THE RESURRECTION OF THIS POLICY BY NICOLA GRIGG. WHAT IS GOING ON? WELL, IT IS AN INTERESTING ONE FOR NATIONAL TO COME OUT WITH IN AN ELECTION YEAR, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ANIMAL WELFARE IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT EXCITES PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS AND IMAGINATIONS. GOING ALONG TO NATIONAL PARTY MEETINGS, GOING ALONG TO LUNCHES, IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS ALWAYS COME UP ` 'WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO RESTART IT?' NOT THAT ALL FARMERS ARE IN FAVOUR OF IT, BUT ENOUGH OF THEM ARE THAT IT IS SOMETHING THE NATIONAL PARTY HAD TO MOVE ON IT. DID THEY, THOUGH? YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GOT 19 POINTS. THE NATIONAL PARTY IS THE PARTY OF THE PRIMARY SECTOR. THEY ARE THE BEDROCK OF THE NATIONAL PARTY. YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT YOUR PEOPLE, TO AN EXTENT. THE NATIONAL PARTY ISN'T PROMISING TO GO BACK TO THE WILD WEST. THERE IS A BIT OF A FALSE CHOICE BETWEEN NOT DOING IT AT ALL AND DOING IT WELL. AND THE SPOKESPERSON NICOLA GRIGG TALKED ABOUT HAVING GOLD STANDARD CERTIFICATION, CUSTOM-BUILT BOATS. I ALSO WONDER WHY WE CAN'T BOND, MAKE OPERATORS PUT UP SECURITY ` IF THEY CARE ABOUT MONEY, MAKING THEM HAVE A BIGGER FINANCIAL STAKE IN DOING IT WELL AND HAVING IT CERTIFIED IS A GOOD WAY TO DO IT. WE ARE NOT GOING` A BAN IS AN EXTREME MEASURE. WE TALK ABOUT GULF AGRICULTURE ONE, YOU KNOW, 6000` BUT THIS IS ABOUT POLITICS, ISN'T IT? THIS IS ABOUT GETTING A FEW VOTES IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE ELECTION YEAR. THERE IS A GENUINE ECONOMIC THING THERE. IT WON'T BE SUSTAINABLE FOR OPERATORS TO DO IT LIKE THEY WERE BEFORE, BUT IF THE BUSINESS STACKS UP, AND IS WELL REGULATED, WE SHOULD BE DOING IT. OK, WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME, THERE IS ALWAYS SO MUCH MORE I WANT TO CHAT TO YOU GUYS ABOUT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, EFESO, JENNIFER, AND LIAM. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. ONLINE GAMBLING IS NOW A $100 BILLION GLOBAL BUSINESS THAT'S AGGRESSIVELY TARGETING KIWIS. OUR LAWS HAVEN'T BEEN UPDATED IN DECADES, AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS PUT ITS LEAST-EXPERIENCED MINISTERS ON THE PROBLEM. MEANWHILE, A POTENTIAL SLOT MACHINE ON EVERY PHONE IS QUIETLY LEADING TO TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES, AS FINN HOGAN EXPLAINS. THE SIGHTS, SOUNDS AND HIGH STAKES OF GAMBLING, ONCE FOUND MOSTLY IN THE CASINO; NOW, POTENTIALLY IN EVERY POCKET. WE'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE INCREASE IN ONLINE GAMBLING. WE'RE SEEING MORE PEOPLE PRESENTING FOR HELP. AND WE KNOW THAT'S ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. ONLINE GAMBLING HAS BALLOONED TO A $100bn GLOBAL BEHEMOTH. APPS LIKE 22BET AND BET365 OFFER ALL THE RISK AND REWARD OF A REAL CASINO ANYTIME, ANYWHERE. IF IT'S IN YOUR PHONE, YOU CAN BE DOING IT 24/SEVEN, ALMOST. YOU CAN BE DOING IT SECRETLY. YOU CAN BE DOING IT IN THE BATHROOM AND PEOPLE DON'T REALISE YOU'RE GAMBLING. SOMETHING FORMER GAMBLERS LIKE SARAH, WHOSE IDENTITY WE'RE PROTECTING, KNOW FIRST-HAND. I DID IT ON MY IPAD ALL HOURS OF THE NIGHT. I HARDLY SLEPT. SO YOU CAN PLAY RIGHT THROUGH THE NIGHT, YOU CAN PLAY IN THE MORNING HOURS, YOU CAN PLAY WHENEVER YOU WANT TO. THERE'S NO ONE CHECKING IN ON YOU TO SAY, 'HEY, YOU'VE PLAYED A LITTLE BIT TOO LONG.' AND WHILE SARAH OCCASIONALLY HAD A WINDFALL, THE HOUSE ALWAYS WON. ONE NIGHT I WON $40,000, AND I THOUGHT, 'WOW, THIS IS A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY THAT I'VE WON.' BUT IT'S NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT I'VE SPENT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS? HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, YEAH. IN NEW ZEALAND, THE ONLY REGULATED FORMS OF GAMBLING ONLINE ARE TAB AND LOTTO. THEY ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO FUND HARM REDUCTION PROGRAMS, AND IT'S ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO TARGET PROBLEM GAMBLERS. POPULAR INTERNATIONAL OPERATORS LIKE 22BET... I'M ALWAYS IN THE GAME. ...DESPITE USING CELEBRITY KIWIS IN ADVERTISING, ARE NOT CAPTURED BY OUR LAWS. SO MANY OF THEM ARE UNSCRUPULOUS AND PREDATORY, THAT THEY REALLY ARE JUST THERE TO MAKE MONEY IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT HAPPENS. THEY DON'T CARE IF SOMEONE LOSES ALL THEIR MONEY, LOSES THEIR HOUSE, MAYBE EVEN LOSES THEIR OWN LIFE OVER IT. SOMETHING SARAH KNOWS ALL TOO WELL. AND IT GOT TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT I STARTED TAKING OUT CASH LOANS TO FUND MY GAMBLING HABIT. EVENTUALLY, I GOT IN OVER MY HEAD AND I COULDN'T AFFORD TO PAY THESE CASH LOANS BACK. AND ONE DAY A CLIENT CAME AND PAID CASH AT MY WORKPLACE, AND I DECIDED TO TAKE THE MONEY, AND THAT WAS MY DOWNFALL. EVENTUALLY I GOT FOUND OUT AND I PROCEEDED TO COMMIT SUICIDE. I GOT FOUND THE NEXT DAY IN A CRITICAL CONDITION, SO I HAD TO LOOK AT MY KIDS AND THE PAIN WERE ETCHED ON THEIR FACES. THE DISAPPOINTMENT WAS SO REAL, AND IT WAS HEARTBREAKING. TRAGIC STORIES LIKE SARAH'S ARE NOT UNIQUE. ACCORDING TO MINISTRY OF HEALTH DATA, KIWIS SEEKING HELP FOR GAMBLING MORE THAN TRIPLED FOLLOWING THE ARRIVAL OF SMARTPHONES IN 2007, AND EXPERTS WARN MOST HARM GOES UNSEEN. BECAUSE OF THE SHAME AND STIGMA THAT GO WITH HAVING A BEHAVIOURAL ADDICTION, AND OTHER PEOPLE CAN'T SEE WHY THAT PERSON CAN'T JUST STOP, AND IT MAKES PEOPLE HIDE IT MORE. THEY DON'T WANT TO TELL ANYONE. WHILE REGULATION LAGS, REVENUE FROM ONLINE GAMBLING IN NEW ZEALAND IS SURGING, EXPECTED TO REACH MORE THAN $.5B BY 2025. BUSINESS IS BOOMING, WHILE RESOURCES TO MINIMISE HARM ARE DRYING UP. THERE IS A LEVY ON THE FOUR MAIN TYPES OF GAMBLING IN NEW ZEALAND, AND OF COURSE OFFSHORE ONLINE GAMBLING IS NOT INCLUDED IN THAT. SO IT ESSENTIALLY MEANS THAT THAT LEVY IS NOT BEING PAID BY THOSE OFFSHORE OPERATORS, AND THAT LEVY IS USED TO FUND THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH'S STRATEGY TO PREVENT AND MINIMISE GAMBLING HARM. NEW ZEALAND'S LACK OF REGULATION STEMS FROM OUR OUTDATED GAMBLING ACT, WRITTEN IN 2003, BEFORE THE INTERNET WAS SO FREELY AVAILABLE. LOOK, WE'RE ABSOLUTELY BEHIND THE EIGHT BALL, AND I THINK IN TERMS OF COMPARING OURSELVES TO OTHER JURISDICTIONS, WE'RE LIKE THE WILD WEST. SO WE ARE SEEN AS A COUNTRY THAT THESE ONLINE OPERATORS ARE GOING TO TARGET BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THIS REGULATION. COUNTRIES LIKE AUSTRALIA, THE UK AND U.S. HAVE CREATED BLACKLISTS OF POTENTIALLY HARMFUL GAMBLING SITES, BLOCKING ACCESS WITHIN THEIR BORDERS. A REVIEW OF ONLINE GAMBLING WAS LAUNCHED IN 2019 BY THEN-MINISTER FOR INTERNAL AFFAIRS, TRACEY MARTIN. IT EXPLORED OPTIONS INCLUDING FORCING INTERNATIONAL GAMBLING SITES TO BE LICENSED IN NEW ZEALAND, OR EVEN BLACKLISTING OTHERS. IT WAS THEN INHERITED BY JAN TINETTI, WHO SAID SHE WAS COMMITTED TO CHANGE. NO HARM IS ACCEPTABLE TO ME, AND THAT'S WHY I'M ABSOLUTELY PASSIONATE ABOUT LEANING INTO THIS SPACE. WE CAN DO BETTER, AND WE WILL DO BETTER. STRONG WORDS, BUT LITTLE ACTION. WE NEED GOOD, EFFECTIVE REGULATION TO PROTECT CONSUMERS, TO PROTECT OUR VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES AND OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. NEWSHUB NATION ASKED TINETTI'S SUCCESSOR, ANOTHER FIRST-TIME MINISTER, BARBARA EDMONDS, WHEN THE REVIEW WILL BE ACTIONED. SHE SAID WORK CONTINUES, BUT COULDN'T COMMIT TO A DATE. TOO LATE TO HELP KIWIS LIKE SARAH, WHO ONLY HOPES HER STORY CAN HELP SOMEONE ELSE. AND I CAN NEVER TAKE THAT BACK, AND I CAN NEVER MAKE THAT RIGHT. SO IF I COULD CHANGE THAT FOR ONE PERSON, ALL THIS PAIN AND HEARTACHE WOULD BE WORTH IT. SO MY MESSAGE IS TO SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT'S STRUGGLING IS GET HELP EARLY, DON'T TURN OUT LIKE ME, DON'T DO WHAT I'VE DONE. I THOUGHT THAT MY LIFE WAS OVER, BUT I'VE GOT A GREAT JOB, AND I'M STUDYING, SO THINGS ARE REALLY LOOKING UP FOR ME, AND I'M ABLE TO GIVE BACK TO THE COMMUNITY. SO I'M PAYING MY DUES. WHILE OTHERS WAIT FOR THAT JACKPOT THAT NEVER COMES. FINN HOGAN WITH THAT REPORT. AND IF YOU FOUND THOSE THEMES CHALLENGING, HELP IS AVAILABLE 24 HOURS VIA 0800 LIFELINE, AND THE PROBLEM GAMBLING FOUNDATION ON 0800 664 262. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THE NATION. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023.