- Kei hea ra te tino matomato o nga tamatane o te pa? Topatopa a manu. Tu ana te karohirohi. Miria o roimata, e Ina, e kui, whakarongo ki nga tamariki pohutuhutu. Kei wareware tatou, ka maumahara tonu tatou ki a ratou. This week on the Hui ` We're with the last surviving member of the 28 Maori Battalion, Sir Robert 'Bom' Gillies. - We've got to be clear in our mind about what it's all about. It's only about killing people. - Historian Dr Monty Soutar joins us live at the Auckland War Memorial Museum. Plus, we sit down with the whanau of Kane Te Tai... - Does Anzac Day take on a whole new meaning for you now? - We understand now, eh. - Yeah. - ...after they laid his body to rest at Waikumete Cemetery. - We just want to thank everyone from the bottom of our hearts for all the love. - Mm-hm. - Yeah. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 - Tihei wa mauri ora, ki a tatou katoa ra. Nau mai i a tatou e ngahunga atu ana ki te ra whakamaharatanga ki nga hoia. Kia ora, and welcome to the Hui, and our Anzac Day Special. We are here live at the Auckland War Memorial Museum in the Hall of Remembrance. Tomorrow morning at 5am, tens of thousands will assemble here for the first time in three years, without COVID restrictions, to commemorate Anzac Day at the Auckland Dawn service. And as you can see from these pictures, preparations are underway now for that event. But tonight, we begin our programme in Rotorua. It's home to the sole surviving member of the 28 Maori Battalion, a man we found to be deeply contemplative about the role of war in our society, and his own participation in it. As a 17-year-old, Bom Gillies left the shores of his hometown in Rotorua, ready to serve for his country in World War Two. Like many young men, he was hoping for the adventure of a lifetime. But the brutal reality of war soon hit home. Fighting on the front line of battlefields in Europe, where millions of people were killed. Today, The 98-year-old is the last surviving member of the 28th Maori Battalion. And as time has passed, his view of war is no longer the same. - I was always just one of the crowd. But now I'm the last one left. I've got to front up, and it's my duty to do it on behalf of the fullas who all passed on. Yeah, honour them. - What's it like for you on Anzac Day? When it comes to Anzac Day, what do you think about? - Anzac Day is a day of remembrance, and honour the ope tuatahi. And there's all our koroua, which I used to watch as a boy, and all the Maori soldiers and Maori military people who volunteered their lives. And some came home, passed away at home here, and the others are still lying in foreign soil. It's an honour for them, to honour them. - Is there anyone in particular of those who never came home, even from here, from where we are here in Ohinemutu? Of the many who went over and many who didn't make it back home, is there anyone in particular you think of and remember? - Oh, yeah. We all had a lot of mates, and you always think of them as mates. You wonder sometimes what they went for and what they died for. Because I think the world is worse now than at that time. - Really? - I think so. - What makes you say that? - Because it's all... it's all power. Wars are created for power and money. That shouldn't be like that. No one should lose their lives. They should be allowed to live their lives out. - You're talking about the futility of war? - Yes. - Even though you went to war? - Yeah, well, we thought it was great to go and see other places. And... it was a different thing when we got there, though. We realised the reality of war. And those memories still linger in your head. You never forget them. - How often do you get those lingering memories, as you call them? - Oh, it's there most of the time. Different times of the day, you think about those fullas. Comes back into your head. But Anzac Day is a special day of remembrance to them. - I remember last year we had you in Waitangi... - Yeah. - ...at an event there to acknowledge you after you received your knighthood, and I remember, I think it might have been Pita Tipene was asked to open the korero, and he broke down. He saw you, and he said he couldn't help but think of all those ancestors, matua, kaumatua, who went to World War Two. And when he sees you, he thinks about them. What's that like for you, when people do that? - It makes me makes me really deep in my thoughts, because I know that the tears are for those of their relations, and the ones who died, almost for nothing. - You think that even now, almost for nothing? - Yeah. All the wars fought never solved anything. And now they've got Ukraine going. That should never have happened. - When you talk like that, I mean, there are a lot of Maori who are in the army now, and the defence forces. What do you think about that, when you hear that so many are following in your footsteps? - Yeah, I think very deep about that, and I only wish they'd say stay in civilian life, because what they're going for will be the same as what happened to us. We come back. Nothing's changed. Peace is the best thing out, and nobody promotes it. They promote war. Call for war. Nobody called for peace. But I guess one day the world will wake up, I hope. - So when you hear about so many people talking about the feats and achievements of their ancestors in war, and dying overseas, does a part of you still think that you wished it never happened? - Yes, I do. Yeah. - For a lot of people that would be a surprise to hear you say that. - Yeah, I know. I know. We've got to be clear in our mind about what it's all about. It's only about killing people. It comes down to the brutality of war, we're losing parts of our family, which is very hard to get over. I've still got a great-uncle lying in France, and I still think of him, Uncle Walter. And a lot of people will have bodies still in other places, even in Malaya and Vietnam. Some of our kin there. Should have been at home here. It's very sad. Very sad. War never solved anything. - So what do you want the legacy of the 28 Maori Battalion to be? - The main thing is that there was about 3000 men serving in the battalion, and about nearly 600, I think, didn't come home. And I think back, and what did they waste their lives for? There's a lot of grievance to the families, and nothing` it wasn't worthwhile. If I had my time over again, what I know now, I would have stayed at home. I would have been an objector, conscientious objector. - Really? - Yeah. For peace. - If you'd done that, what do you think... - Oh, I would have been slammed by the average person in New Zealand. It was the way they think. Which... I was thinking that way. All the objectors, we just used to` they called it white feather. White feather people. But I think they were right to promote peace. - And I wonder what your message is, to particularly rangatahi. I mean, you're 98... - Yeah. - ...now, as we approach Anzac Day. What do you say to rangatahi when you talk with them? Because they all look up to you. - Stay real to your Maoritanga. I tell them to learn a bit about religion, and in reality, treat the people like you treat your own family. That's the best way we'll get on together. - And the extended version of that interview with Koro Bom will be on our Facebook page after this. We are back after the break with esteemed Maori historian Dr Monty Soutar after this quick break. Stay with us on The Hui, with our very special broadcast on this Anzac Day 2023. (LAUGHTER AND CHATTER) (LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS) (PEOPLE GASP) (BELLOWS) Call this a feast?! I've regurgitated bigger meals than this! (DRAMATIC MUSIC) Excuse me. (INTREPID MUSIC) Walk! (WHEELS SQUEAK) M'lady. (PEOPLE CHATTER) (EPIC MUSIC) (PEOPLE CHEER) Is this Greek salad? Nah, it's from New Zealand, eh! VOICEOVER: Four Square. What'll it be today? Ko te kaupapa o ta tatou hui i tenei wa, i tenei ra, he whakamahara, he whakamanawa, he whakamihi. E rere ana nga mihi ki a koutou katoa. Welcome back to the Hui on this, our Anzac Day special for 2023, here at the Auckland War Memorial Museum at the Hall of Remembrance. And I'm joined now by historian, he whatu korero, he whatu kupu, Dr Monty Soutar. E te Takuta, tena koe. - Yeah, kia ora, Julian. - Thank you so much for your time. You have spoken with a lot of veterans in your time, it's fair to say, and you've studied the words and stories of those who do not make it back. Is Koro Bom's position on war that we have just heard a common one? - Well, you've got to remember, there are thousands of Maori soldiers who have served overseas, so you can expect that there will be several views on service. And I think it's rare to hear that view expressed publicly. You know, men went for a lot of reasons, and some would say they'd probably go again, largely because if they didn't, their cousins would have to go, or brothers would have to go. Others would be keen to go again, and there would be others again in the same camp as Sir Bom, that they would, on reflection, probably not. - Were you somewhat surprised to hear him talk like that in that way? - No, no. I've always been advised that as you age, that you grow in wisdom, and I think his comments really are the wisdom of age. You know, he's 98, and to be saying those things like that now, I think it's an important lesson to us younger people. - It's rare, though, to hear someone say those views publicly. Why is that, do you think? - I think it's largely because the 28 Maori Battalion has got such a reputation that nobody likes to probably raise any hint of, I suppose, unwillingness to serve. But if anybody can, it's a member of the 28 himself. - He's got more right than anyone else, given he's the sole survivor` - Probably the only one who's got that right. - That's right. Look, when we commemorate Anzac Day, we are accurately reflecting the wide range of experiences and the nuances of those soldiers' stories. Are we doing it in the right way, do you think? The way in which we commemorate, is it the right way? - I think it's a fine line between commemoration and glorification of war, and you've got to tread carefully. But I think, you know, I've attended lots of services around the country over the years. I think we do it well. I think it's solemn, it's sincere and it's respectful. And as long as you know, that's retained, I can't see any problem with that. Yeah. - It is different, the way we do it, to say, the likes of our closest cousins, the Australians. They have a very different way of commemorating Anzac Day over there. - I think the other thing that we do is we bring our culture to it, and you know, we don't seem to have a problem with that, bringing the culture into the ceremony. And it is, after all, particularly the dawn ceremony, it's following a military funeral style. And we do it like that. And we know as Maori what tangihanga are like, and so we bring that to it as well. - Particularly at that time, at dawn. - Particularly at dawn. - This year, schools will be putting a greater emphasis on the teaching of New Zealand history. What do you most want to see explained to students about war, World War One, World War Two? - I would really like them to understand why men went, that, you know, that they duty-bound, our forefathers. I think particularly for Maori, who were all volunteers in those two world wars, to understand what motivated them. And it has a lot to do with the Treaty, and the duties and obligations that we're bound to under Article Three of the Treaty. Hopefully they'll teach that, so that people don't think that we just went for` only to see the world, our fathers and grandfathers, that we actually went for a common purpose. - E te Takuta, tena koe. Tena koe i whai wahi mai koe ki a matou. I'll see you tomorrow morning. - Oh, kia ora. - Nga mihi nui ki a koe. Dr Monty Soutar there, historian and author as well. Kia u tonu mai, e te iwi, after the break, ko to tatou manu tioriori e haere ake ana. We're also with the whanau of Kane Te Tai, and then we're joined by Maisey Rika e whakarehu ana i a tatou korero katoa i Te Hui i tenei ra. He hui whakamahara, he hui whakahirahira tenei te haere ake nei. Nau mai ano, welcome back to The Hui. While we commemorate the service and sacrifice of the military men and women of Aotearoa, we often ignore the strength and sacrifices of their whanau, who also carry the scars of war. Kane Te Tai is the third Kiwi known to have been killed during Russia's invasion of Ukraine. His parents, Ngaire and Keith, sat down with Ruwani Pereira, and began by talking about the moment it was confirmed that their eldest son had died on the front line. - It was like... the worst day of our lives. And it's surreal, and the fact that you're hearing, but it's not sinking in. And I'll tell you, his whole life flashed before me. And then I always thought, 'Oh, he's such a comedian. 'He would do something where he would hopefully be still alive.' Yeah. But no. - When I met Ngaire, Kane was 4, going on 5, and I slept in his room one night, and there were these aeroplanes and all these army toys hanging from the ceiling. So, you know, he was already pointed in that direction. - Kane Te Tai's army ambitions only got stronger as he got older. He was just 17, straight out of school, when he joined the New Zealand Defence Force. - Yeah, no, he has always been very, very independent, strong, confident. - And Kane would need all of that bravado, deployed to Afghanistan before his 21st birthday. - I never, ever dreamed really, he'd go onto the battlefield. And I think that's probably the same with other parents. They never, ever think their kids are going to ultimately get to that stage. - He served seven years with our armed forces, and would always look for humour in the darkest of times. - Good job, Russia. I needed to wake up at 4.30 anyway, so thanks for the wake up call. One of the biggest things is trying to find joy in the things that you can, you know? If you like to watch a funny show, watch a funny show. I like to watch fail videos on YouTube, is the last thing that I do, just to make myself sort of laugh before I go to bed. - Last August, the 38-year-old spoke to The Hui from the front line to shed light on what was happening half a world away. He would explain why he felt compelled to pack up his life in Aotearoa and enlist with the International Legion of Ukraine. - (SPEAKS IN UKRAINIAN) - There we go. - So you haven't given yourself any time constraints as to how long you'll be there for. - It's how long mentally I can sort of keep this up for, but also for as long as I'm affected, or until my mum harasses me on that next level, which she does try. My heart will be very heavy when I come back from this place. - But Kane also missed his whanau back home, and kept in regular contact with his mum. He always had to be light-hearted about what he was doing. I don't think he wanted us to worry, eh, darling? - No. - Easily said than done. If he didn't answer back, I'd be so worried. But that last one, when we were trying to figure out whether he was still here or not, yeah, and he didn't answer. Yeah. - Newshub understands there are grave fears tonight that Kiwi soldier Kane Te Tai may have been killed in action in Ukraine. - The Ministry of Foreign Affairs... - I was beside myself. One, for him to die in a foreign country, and two, to have him come back maybe in ashes, was not even` I couldn't even imagine that happening. It wasn't going to happen. I didn't know how it was going to be possible for him to come back. - Returning Kane's body home was a very dangerous and costly three-week operation. The Te Tai whanau managed to raise the $65,000 they needed in a few days. - We just want to thank everyone from the bottom of our hearts for all the love. - Mm-hm. - Yeah. - What did it mean to you to have his tupapaku return home? - So the relief to have him back by us, and to be buried on his whenua, that was huge. (ALL PERFORM HAKA) - Kane's final journey began with a powhiri at Te Taua Moana Marae on Auckland's North Shore. (ALL PERFORM HAKA) - Always prepared, Kane had written a letter to his parents and 12-year-old daughter in case he didn't make it home alive. In it, he explained why he couldn't ignore the conflict when innocent people were forced to live it. - I think it gave us the answers we needed. After I read that, I` I had a sense of understanding. You know, I was thinking, 'You've got a daughter here, you've left her.' And that was part of that where he was speaking about the selfish part of his choice. What about us? And I'd love to have my son here on this earth, but I feel a little at peace knowing he's answered some of those questions. - Hundreds came to celebrate Kane's life at Waikumete Cemetery too, including those who he fought alongside in Ukraine. - It is an honour for me personally to say thank you to Kane, to say thank you to, you know, his family, to his friends, to the whole Maori culture and to New Zealand for supporting of Ukraine, because it's hugely important for Ukraine to feel not alone in this terrible war. (ALL PERFORM HAKA) - He was always there, eh, when you lost a comrade. He'd make sure he'd be there for the whanau, yeah, and celebrate them. - Does Anzac Day take on a whole new meaning for you now? - We understand now, eh. - Yeah. - I've got so much more respect for our servicemen and for our grieving parents and those ones' families, the ones that have gone before us. - He was my first love. I just love my son. But now we'll focus our energies on his daughter, our moko girl, and yeah, just try and keep his memory alive in everything that we do. Celebrate his life. - Remembering Kane and his ultimate sacrifice. - Kia ahatia. Kua taupoki ake ta tatou hui ki konei. You can find all of our stories from today's show and our extended interview with Ta Bom Gillies on Facebook, YouTube and on Newshub.co.nz. Thank you so much for joining our Anzac Special Hui this week. We will leave you now with an incredibly special waiata sung by one of the sweetest songbirds of Aotearoa. It's Maisey Rika with the Maori Battalion hymn Au E Ihu Tirohia. Kei wareware tatou, ka maumahara tonu tatou, ki a ratou. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. # Au e Ihu, tirohia, # Arohaina iho ra, # Whakaaetia ake au, # Ki tou uma piri ai, # I te wa e ake ai, # Enei ngaru kino nei, # I te wa e keri ai, # Enei awha kaha mai. # Tiakina mai ahau, # I te wa e rurea nei, # Aratakakina e koe, # Roto te marino nui, # Aua au e waiho noa, # Awhitia mai ra e koe, # Hipokina iho au, # Raro i ou parirau. # Raro i ou parirau. # Amine. # Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 - Ko te reo te take. - Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui i tautoko.