TENA TATOU KATOA. I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. E NGA IWI O TE MOTU, NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` HE'S BEEN A MAN OF MYSTERY THIS YEAR, TRAVELING A LOT... WHAT'S HE BEEN UP TO? DEFENCE MINISTER ANDREW LITTLE ON THE FUTURE OF OUR FORCE. BRIAN TAMAKI'S ELECTION YEAR DESTINY. AND WISDOM FROM AN AWARD-WINNING PRINCIPAL. WILL HE GIVE OUR SCHOOLS A PASS OR A FAIL? CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND SAM BAKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` SAVING OUR DEFENCE FORCE. STAFF HAVE BEEN LEAVING, EXPENSIVE MILITARY EQUIPMENT SITS UNUSED. THE GOVERNMENT'S PROMISED A $419M PAY BOOST, BUT IS IT GOING ON THE RIGHT THINGS? AND IS IT ENOUGH TO REASSURE OUR ALLIES THAT WE'RE SERIOUS ABOUT SECURITY? DEFENCE MINISTER ANDREW LITTLE JOINS ME NOW. TENA KOE. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. GOOD MORNING. 30% OF DEFENCE FORCE STAFF LEFT IN TWO YEARS. SOUNDS LIKE IT IS CLOSE TO COLLAPSE. NO, IT'S NOT. THEY HAD 30% ATTRITION OVER TWO YEARS. OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE RECRUITED OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME AS WELL. TO MAKE UP THAT 30%? NO, THE NET EFFECT IS ABOUT 10% DOWN. ROUGHLY 900 PERSONNEL DOWN. IT IS STILL A GAP. OF COURSE, A LOT HAVE BEEN RECRUITED IN THE PAST YEARS WON'T BE SKILLED AND CAPABLE, SO THEIR TRAINING STILL CONTINUES. WE STILL HAVE AN EFFORT TO GO TO FILL THAT GAP. WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO FILL THE GAP, WE ARE IN A PERIOD OF VULNERABILITY. WE'VE GOT SHIPS TIED UP AT DEVONPORT, PLANES BEING RETIRED EARLY. THE CYCLONE RESPONSE TO GABRIELLE WAS COMPROMISED. ARE WE VULNERABLE RIGHT NOW? IT'S NOT CORRECT THAT THE RESPONSE WAS COMPROMISED. IT WAS THE BIGGEST, BEST-TIMED DEPLOYMENT OF OUR DEFENCE FORCE. BUT THEY COULDN'T DO EVERYTHING THEY WANTED TO DO. THEY DID EVERYTHING THEY NEEDED TO DO IN CYCLONE GABRIELLE. HAD THERE BEEN ANOTHER INCIDENT IN NEW ZEALAND OR IN THE PACIFIC ISLANDS, WE WOULD HAVE STRUGGLED TO RESPOND. AS IT WAS, AT THE TAIL END OF OUR RESPONSE, THERE WAS A CYCLONE IN VANUATU. WE WERE ABLE TO HELP WITH THAT. ARE WE IN THE POSITION WHERE WE WOULD STRUGGLE TO RESPOND IF WE HAD A SERIOUS LOCAL DISASTER AND A PACIFIC DISASTER? YES, WE WOULD STRUGGLE TO DO THE SORT OF THINGS THAT WOULD BE EXPECTED OF US. WE WOULD RESPOND, BUT IT WOULDN'T BE WHAT WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THREE OR FOUR YEARS AGO. $400M PAY BOOST ` THIS MILITARY PAY, CLOSE TO MARKET RATES, OR AT. IT DOESN'T SOUND ENOUGH TO ENTICE THAT 10% BACK IN. WERE NOT GOING TO GET EVERYBODY BACK WHO'S LEFT. THE IMMEDIATE EFFECT WAS THAT THE RESIGNATIONS THAT HAD BEEN TENDED MORE RECENTLY HAVE BEEN WITHDRAWN. THE RESPONSE I'VE HAD DURING THE WEEK ` IT HAS BEEN RECEIVED VERY POSITIVELY. IT HAS BEEN A HUGE MORALE BOOST. UP TO NOW, THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN ONE-OFF LUMP SUM PAYMENTS. WHAT PERSONNEL WANTED TO SEE WAS A STRUCTURAL INCREASE IN THEIR PAY. WE WILL NOW BE ABLE TO DO THAT, AND IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. $60M WAS PAID OUT IN LUMP SUM PAYMENTS THIS YEAR. ARE YOU STILL GOING TO HAVE TO PUT ANOTHER $60M LUM SUM BONUS RETENTION PAYMENTS IN EVERY YEAR TO GET THE DEFENCE FORCE BACK TO FULL CAPABILITY? WE WILL CONTINUE THE EFFORT WE MAKE TO RECRUITING. WE'RE GETTING A LOT OF INTEREST IN IN FOLKS WHO WANT TO JOIN OUR SERVICES. THERE IS THE INVESTING ON THE TRAINING. ONE OF THE REASONS THAT PEOPLE HAVE LEFT IN THE NUMBERS THEY HAVE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS IS IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF OPERATION PROTECT, THE MIQ FACILITY OPERATION. PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T GET THE TRAINING AND UPGRADING OF SKILLS THAT THEY SHOULD GET, SO THEY LEFT. WE ARE NOW REINSTATING ALL OF THAT AND DOING RECRUITING. IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME TO GET THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST BACK. YES, BUT WE ARE ON A GOOD TRACK. WE HAVE THIS PAY BOOST. IT WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE. DOESN'T THE DECLINE COME AT THE WRONG TIME GIVEN THE JOSTLING FOR POSITION IN THE PACIFIC? THE REASON I MADE IT MY TOP PRIORITY AS DEFENCE MINISTER IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T SUFFER THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES OF THE ATTRITION THAT WE HAVE BEEN HAVING, AND I'M CONFIDENT WE'LL TURN THAT AROUND. AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE A DEFENCE POLICY REVIEW UNDERWAY. THAT'S GIVING US A FRESH ASSESSMENT OF OUR STRATEGIC CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE GOT. WE CAN MAKE SOME LONG-TERM DECISIONS ABOUT THAT. THAT A LONG-TERM THING. THAT IS NOT DUE TILL MID 2024. GIVEN THE TENSIONS BOTH ON OUR DOORSTEP AND AROUND THE WORLD, DOES THAT NOT NEED TO BE BROUGHT FORWARD? NO, THE FIRST REPORTS I'M EXPECTING IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS. WE WILL GET THE STRATEGIC REVIEW AND FUTURE FORCE PRINCIPLES DOCUMENT. THAT WILL COME OUT IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS OR MONTHS. AND THEN THAT WILL ALLOW US TO MAKE THE LONG-TERM INVESTMENT DECISIONS. ARE WE IN THIS DECISION BECAUSE WE'VE ONLY BEEN SPENDING 1% OF GDP ON DEFENCE UNLIKE AUSTRALIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH ARE MAKING THE 2% NATO BENCHMARK? YEAH, WE'VE BEEN AT THAT FIGURE FOR SOME TIME. THE REALITY IS INVESTMENT DECISIONS HAVE BEEN DEFERRED FOR A LONG TIME. WHEN RON MARK WAS DEFENCE MINISTER, HE MADE WAY FOR INVESTMENT THAT WERE LONG OVERDUE. WE GOT THE NEW POSEIDON AIRCRAFT, THE NEW HERCULES. THE HERCULES THAT WE ARE FLYING RIGHT NOW ARE NEARLY 60 YEARS OLD. IT'S BECAUSE WE ARE SUCCESSIVELY PUT OFF WHAT ARE EXPENSIVE BUT NECESSARY INVESTMENTS TO UPGRADE OUR CAPABILITY. IS THE STATE OF OUR DEFENCE FORCE MAKING US THE WEAK LINK IN TERMS OF OUR ALLIES? NOT AT ALL. WE MAKE A CONTRIBUTION. WE'RE BACK TO EXERCISING ON A REGULAR BASIS WITH OUR PARTNERS AND ALLIES ` AUSTRALIA, U.S, FRANCE, UK. WE ARE GOING MORE INTO THE INDO PACIFIC. WE ARE PICKING UP THE PARTNERSHIPS AND RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE HAD PRE-COVID AND MAKING OUR WAY. RELATIONSHIPS, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. CHRIS HIPKINS IS GOING TO MEET JOE BIDEN IN PORT MORESBY SOON WHERE THE U.S COULD SIGN A DEFENCE PACT WITH PAPUA NEW GUINEA. THESE ALLEGIANCES ARE BEING LOCKED IN IN THE PACIFIC. WHERE DO WE STAND? WE HAVE A RANGE OF PARTNERSHIPS AND ALLIANCES. OUR PRINCIPAL AND REAL FORM OF ALLY IS AUSTRALIA. WE'VE HAD A STRENGTHENING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S OVER SOME TIME. COUNTRIES LIKE JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA, WE ARE BUILDING OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH ALL OF THOSE. OBVIOUSLY A CRITICAL PART OF OUR WORK IS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC. WE HAVE STRONG RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR PACIFIC NEIGHBOURS. WE WILL CONTINUE WITH THOSE. IT SEEMS LIKE WE ARE GRADUALLY CHOOSING A SIDE IN WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE PACIFIC, AND THAT IS AGAINST CHINA. NO, I THINK WE LOOK TO OUR INTERESTS AND THE THINGS WE VALUE. WE VALUE OPEN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES, WE EMBRACE AND SUPPORT MULTILATERAL ARRANGEMENTS, INCLUDING IN THE PACIFIC, THINGS LIKE THE PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM. THAT'S WHAT WE ARE ABOUT. WE WILL SPEAK AGAINST AND OPPOSE THOSE WHO MIGHT WEAKEN THOSE AND THOSE WHO MIGHT PULL IT APART. WE WILL WORK ON OUR PARTNERSHIPS AND RELATIONSHIPS THAT SERVE OUR INTERESTS AND THE DEMANDS ON US WHICH INCLUDES THE PACIFIC AND AUSTRALIA. YOU ARE A STRAIGHT TALKER, AND THAT SOUNDS LIKE DIPLOMATIC SPEAK. I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU THINK IS WRONG WITH WHAT I SAID. IT IS THE REALITY. WE HAVE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIPS, MILITARY RELATIONSHIPS. IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT PICKING SIDES, JUST THIS WEEK, NEW ZEALAND DEFENCE OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN IN BEIJING WITH OUR REGULAR DEFENCE DIALOGUE WITH CHINA. WE MAINTAIN A DIALOGUE WITH CHINA. CHINA IS DOING WHAT IT CONSIDERS IT NEEDS TO DO. ITS FEEDING ITS PEOPLE, GROWING ITS WEALTH. IT ALSO WANTS TO EXPAND ITS POLITICAL BREACH. IT HAS A STYLE OF CONDUCT ON THE WORLD STAGE THAT SOME OF US FIND UNATTRACTIVE AND UNAPPEALING. WE FIND SOME OF THEIR APPROACH TO SOME OF OUR FRIENDS IN THE PACIFIC AND BEYOND IS UNHELPFUL. WE TALKED TO CHINA ABOUT THAT. BUT WE MAKE DECISIONS THAT ENSURE WE CAN DO WHAT IS EXPECTED OF US, WITH OUR NEIGHBOURS AND THE AREA THAT WE'RE IN. WE MAKE THOSE CONTRIBUTIONS ON A PRINCIPLED BASIS. ONE OF THE DECISIONS YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE IS WHETHER TO JOIN AUKUS. CAN YOU GIVE US SOME CLARITY ON THAT? AUKUS IS PRINCIPALLY A TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AGREEMENT. AUSTRALIA WANTS HIGH-POWERED SUBMARINES, THEY ARE GOING TO GET NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINES, SO THEY GOT THAT. BUT THEY ALSO WANT... THE THREE COUNTRIES THAT MAKE UP AUKUS ` THEY ARE ALSO GOING TO DO WHAT ALL COUNTRIES ARE DOING INCLUDING US, WHICH IS DEVELOP TECHNOLOGY THAT'S RELEVANT TO OUR ABILITY TO DEFEND OUR COUNTRIES. SOME OF THE TECHNOLOGY THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT DOING, WE MIGHT HAVE AN INTEREST IN BEING PART OF AS WELL. THINGS LIKE CYBER SECURITY. AI THINGS LIKE QUANTUM COMPUTING. STUFF YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH ENCRYPTED PLATFORMS AND WHAT HAVE YOU. IT HAS BEEN RAISED WITH US THAT WE MIGHT BE ASKED IF WE ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING, BUT NO ASK HAS BEEN MADE YET. THE ISSUE HASN'T COME UP. NANAIA MAHUTA HAS TOLD US OFFICIALS ARE ACTUALLY DISCUSSING THE DETAIL, BUT THERE ISN'T ENOUGH VISIBILITY AT THE CABINET LEVEL. DO YOU AGREE WITH NANAIA MAHUTA? CABINET HASN'T HAD ANYTHING TO CONSIDER. IT HASN'T GONE INTO CABINET. DEFENCE OFFICIALS ARE LOOKING AT IT, RIGHT? THERE'S TALK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN. IN MY DISCUSSING WITH RICHARD MARLES, THE AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE MINISTER, AND HE WAS OVER AT THE BEGINNING OF APRIL, AND THE ISSUE ABOUT AUKUS CAME UP, HE JUST SAID, 'LOOK, IT'S JUST UNDEVELOPED. 'WE ARE JUST NOWHERE NEAR THERE AT THE MOMENT. 'SO DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING SOON.' SO THAT'S WHERE THAT'S AT. WHEN YOU GET THE DETAIL, WOULD YOU BE KEEN? IN THE END THAT WILL BE A DECISION FOR CABINET. IT WILL BE BASED ON WHAT IS IT THAT NEW ZEALAND WANTS OR NEEDS, AND WHAT IS THE BEST WAY WE CONTINUE TO MAKE OUR CONTRIBUTION? WHAT IS THE BEST WAY WE STRENGTHEN OUR RELATIONSHIPS? IF WE SIGN UP TO THAT, IS IT A SIGNAL THAT WE ARE GIVING UP OUR INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY ` THAT WE ARE CHOOSING A SIDE? WE'VE HAD WHAT YOU WOULD DESCRIBE AS AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY. IT ISN'T BEING IN ISOLATION. OVER THAT 40 YEARS, WE HAVE STRENGTHENED OUR PARTNERSHIPS AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH ALL SORTS OF COUNTRIES, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES AND AUSTRALIA AND FRANCE. WE HAVE A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SOUTH PACIFIC. WITH THE UK AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, AND WITH OTHER ASIAN COUNTRIES. SO INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY IS ABOUT US HAVING THE AGENCY AND THE ABILITY TO MAKE DECISIONS IN OUR BEST INTEREST. DOES IT GET CONFUSING FOR PEOPLE? WE WANT TO SUPPORT THE PACIFIC, WE WANT TO HAVE INTELLIGENCE THROUGH FIVE EYES, BUT WE WON'T PICK SIDES WHEN IT COMES, BECAUSE WE HAVE TRADE WITH CHINA. IT'S QUITE A CONFUSING POLICY FOR PEOPLE. I DON'T THINK IT IS. IT IS VALUES-BASED, AND THE REASON WE ARE SUPPORTING UKRAINE IS BECAUSE IT IS IN OUR INTEREST BECAUSE WHAT RUSSIA HAS DONE IS INVADE UKRAINE ILLEGALLY, WITH UNPRINCIPLED CONFLICT. AS A SMALL NATION STATE, WE DEPEND ON THE INTERNATIONAL LAW TO BE UPHELD. IF WE SEE IT BREACHED IN AN EGREGIOUS WAY, IT IS OUR INTEREST ON A VALUES BASIS TO PARTICIPATE IN A WORLDWIDE EFFORT TO PUSH BACK ON THAT. IF WE SEE CHINA ACT IN A WAY THAT BREACHES INTERNATIONAL RULE OF LAW, WE WILL HAVE A DIALOGUE. WE STAND ON OUR VALUES. LET'S TALK CYBER WARFARE. STATE ACTORS, INCLUDING RUSSIA, MAKE UP ONE-THIRD OF THE CYBER SECURITY ATTACKS ON NEW ZEALAND. DEFENCE WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE INCREASED CYBER DEFENCE CAPABILITY TO CABINET LAS YEAR IN JUNE. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THAT PROJECT? I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS NECESSARILY CORRECT THEY WERE MEANT TO BRING SOMETHING TO CABINET. THAT'S WHERE I GOT THE INFORMATION, FROM THEIR WEBSITE. I THINK THEY'VE SINCE CONCEDED THAT WAS WRONG. THERE'S AN ALL-OF-GOVERNMENT EFFORT. BECAUSE THE GCSB HAS A CRITICAL ROLE IN THIS. ALL COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN DO BETTER TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST CYBER ATTACKS. SO IS THAT SOMETHING THAT CABINET IS CONSIDERING VERY SOON ` AND ALL-IN-GOVERNMENT RESPONSE IN TERMS OF UPPING OUR DEFENCE AGAINST CYBER ATTACKS? WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GOT A COHERENT ADMINISTRATION AROUND IT. AND THEN THERE'S THE MEANS WE HAVE FOR IT. WE'RE WORKING WITH A PRIVATE SECTOR IN PARTICULAR ` CRITICAL NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED. WHAT HAPPENS IN THE DEFENCE PART, AND I'VE TALKED SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THIS, THE FUTURE OF WARFARE IS MORE AND MORE WARFARE IS CONDUCTED IN REMOTE TERMS, AND BEING ABLE TO INTERFERE WITH THE COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS ALLOWS THAT TO BE PROSECUTED IS IMPORTANT. EVERY COUNTRY'S LOOKING AT THAT. AND WE'D BE NO DIFFERENT. ARE WE CONSIDERING A CYBER ATTACK CAPABILITY? LIKE AUSTRALIA SAYS THAT IT DOES? IT'S EQUIVALENT TO OUR GCSB. THEIR SENIOR DIRECTOR OPENLY SAYS IT CONDUCTS OFFENSIVE CYBER OPERATIONS. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WE DO OR CONSIDER? OUR FOCUS IS ON DEFENDING OUR NETWORKS. AND PRIVATE SECTOR OPERATORS THAT WE LOOK TO ` THAT'S WHAT WE DO. WHEN IT COMES TO ANY OFFENSIVE, CAPABILITY, TO THE EXTENT THAT WE WOULD HAVE ` THIS WOULD BE A QUESTION THE DEFENCE POLICY REVIEW WILL LOOK AT ` WHAT WE MIGHT WANT TO DO IS HAVE THE ABILITY TO DISRUPT OR INTERFERE IN THOSE FOREIGN MILITARY ACTIVITIES THAT DO POSE A THREAT. AND WE CAN EFFECTIVELY INTERRUPT AS WELL. SO THAT'S WHERE IT WOULD GO. I'M LOOKING MORE TO THE DEFENCE POLICY REVIEW TO DETERMINE IT. IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT IS UNDER CONSIDERATION. ANY SELF-RESPECTING MILITARY ADMINISTRATION IS LOOKING AT THAT, BECAUSE THE FUTURE OF A LOT OF MILITARY CONDUCT IS DONE IN THE CYBER-SPHERE. YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THE MEANS TO DEAL WITH THAT AND DEFEND YOURSELF. IT'S ELECTION YEAR. CYBER ATTACKS IS ONE OF THE HEADACHES THAT EVERYBODY WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH. WHAT ARE YOU BEING TOLD THAT COULD HAPPEN IN TERMS OF CYBERATTACKS TO NEW ZEALAND THIS YEAR? I DON'T THINK THE RISK IS ANY LESS THAN IT WAS IN 2020 AND EVEN PERHAPS IN 2017. BUT IT IS A REALITY, AND THE GCSB WORKS CLOSELY WITH THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION AND OTHERS. THE SIS BRIEFS POLITICAL PARTIES ` BOTH THOSE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF PARLIAMENT WITH PROSPECT OF GETTING INTO PARLIAMENT ` ABOUT THE RISK AND THE THREATS AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE PROTECTED. HAVE THEY BRIEFED YOU AS MINISTER ABOUT THE POTENTIAL INCREASED RISK DURING ELECTION YEAR? THEY BRIEFED ME AND THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. THEY BRIEFED OTHER MINISTERS. THERE IS NOTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT. IT'S ABOUT BEING ACROSS WHERE THREATS ARE COMING FROM. WE KNOW COUNTRIES LIKE RUSSIA ARE USERS OF CYBERATTACKS TO TRY AND DISRUPT. THERE'S OTHER COUNTRIES TOO LIKE NORTH KOREA AND IRAN. THESE COUNTRIES ARE ALL INTO THIS THING. BUT YOU DON'T THINK THERE'S AN INCREASED RISK THIS YEAR? THERE IS NO MORE RISK THAN THERE WAS AN 2020. THAT RISK WAS MATERIAL AND SIGNIFICANT THEN. IT'S ABOUT BEING ACROSS THAT AND TAKING PROTECTIVE MEASURES AGAINST IT. ANDREW LITTLE, TENA KOE, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` THOUGHTS ON THAT INTERVIEW FROM OUR POLITICAL PANEL JOSIE PAGANI, THOMAS MANCH AND FORMER DEFENCE MINISTER RON MARK. PLUS, A NEW LEADER FOR THE TAMAKIS' UMBRELLA PARTY AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. WELL, IT'S CONFERENCE DAY TODAY FOR THE FREEDOMS NZ PARTY. THAT'S THE UMBRELLA PARTY STARTED IN AUGUST BY BRIAN TAMAKI. THEY'RE CALLING IT THEIR ELECTION DISRUPTION. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THE BISHOP'S RECENT POLITICAL MOVES. AND WELCOME TO THE STAGE BRIAN TAMAKI! (WHISTLES TRILL) THAT GOVERNMENT AND A LAME DUCK OPPOSITION... THOSE THAT WERE PAINTED AS NEGATIVE, EVIL PEOPLE! WE BELIEVE THAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS... WELL, IT'S DEEPLY DYSFUNCTIONAL. THEY GOTTA GO! WE NEED TO BE LISTENED TO. YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS ARE GROWING. WAITING FOR THEM AT PARLIAMENT A COUNTER-PROTEST, MAKING THEIR MESSAGE JUST AS CLEAR. CROWD CHANTS: GO HOME! GO HOME! HE'S JUST SENDING PEOPLE DOWN A REALLY DARK PATH. GO AWAY! GO AWAY! COURT IS NOW IN SESSION. (BANGS GAVEL) IT WAS FUN, BUT IT WAS ALSO SERIOUS. THE CHARITIES COMMISSION HAS DECIDED TO DEREGISTER TWO DESTINY CHURCH CHARITIES FOR PERSISTENTLY FAILING TO FILE TAX RETURNS. MAINSTREAM MEDIA ARE THE MODERN-DAY TERRORISTS. JUST LOOK AND TASTE THE FRUIT OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING. WE NEED AN OPPOSITION THAT GROWS SOME LARGE ONES AND STAND UP FOR US BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T. POLARISING SCENES THERE. AND BRIAN TAMAKI IS LAUNCHING ANOTHER BID FOR PARLIAMENT THIS MORNING. THERE ARE RUMOURS THAT THIS TIME, IT WILL BE AS THE LEADER OF FREEDOMS NZ. WE WERE EXPECTING TO HAVE BISHOP BRIAN ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY, BUT WE COULDN'T AGREE ON THE TERMS OF THE INTERVIEW. SO WE'VE INVITED A MAN WHO KNOWS THE BISHOP BETTER THAN MOST. DR PETER LINEHAM IS A RETIRED MASSEY UNIVERSITY HISTORY PROFESSOR, AND IN 2013, PENGUIN PUBLISHED HIS BOOK ON BRIAN TAMAKI ` 'DESTINY'. WELCOME TO THE NATION. PLEASURE TO BE HERE. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE RUMOURS AT THIS STAGE THAT BRIAN MAY BE THE LEADER OUT FRONT ` THE FACE OF A POLITICAL PARTY THIS TIME? THERE'S BEEN STRIKING EVIDENCE THAT THE TAMAKIS HAVE BEEN MOVING TO A MUCH MORE POLITICAL REALM. EVER SINCE LOCKDOWN, THE DEBATE OVER MANDATES, THAT HAS BEEN CRITICAL TO THEIR SELF UNDERSTANDING. IN SOME WAYS, BRIAN IS LESS INTERESTED IN THE RELIGIOUS SIDE THESE DAYS AND MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN PUBLIC PROFILE. OF COURSE HE'S BEEN THERE BEFORE. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? THERE HAS BEEN OUR CAREFUL SUCCESSION PLAN FOR HIS SON TO TAKE OVER AT DESTINY IN THE CHURCH. AND THE CHURCH` IN SOME WAYS, HE HAS BEEN PASTOR FOR A LONG TIME. HE'S DONE HIS 40 YEARS. I THINK HE WANTS TO BE FREE OF THE DAY-TO-DAY AFFAIRS. THERE HAS BEEN A BIT OF HOLIDAYING. NOTICE THE STORY ABOUT THEIR VISIT TO GALLIPOLI AND FIRST-CLASS TRAVEL. IN SOME WAYS, THERE IS A SEARCH FOR A NEW DIRECTION, BUT ALSO, I THINK HE SENSES THAT THIS IS A POLITICAL MOMENT IN NEW ZEALAND WAITING FOR A DIFFERENT VOICE. HE DID SEIZE ON TO THE` HE WAS IN THE PROTEST, THIS ANTI-MANDATE MOVEMENT. HOW DOES THAT LINE UP WITH HIS RELIGIOUS VIEWS? THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT THAT IT FITS VERY TIDILY WITH BRIAN'S EMPHASIS ON PERSONAL FREEDOMS AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, AND THAT IS THE BIG THEME BEHIND THE ANTI-MANDATE MOVE UNDOUBTEDLY, AND IT ALSO FEEDS INTO THAT TONE WE ARE PICKING UP FROM AMERICA IN WHICH BRIAN FOLLOWS VERY CAREFULLY, OF THIS INTEREST IN CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM. THERE ARE A LOT OF THEMES IN TAMAKI'S PITCH FROM THE CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM IN THE U.S. I NOTICE HIS FEAR OF IMMIGRATION, VOTER SUPPRESSION, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND HE'S SORT OF WEAVING A STORY ABOUT NATIONAL IDENTITY AND HAVING TO BE SAVED, SAVING OURSELVES. YES, AND HE HAS HELD THIS POSITION FOR MANY YEARS. HE SEES HIMSELF AS THE ADVOCATE FOR A TRUE NEW ZEALAND. WHEN THERE WAS A DISCUSSION ABOUT SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS DOCUMENT THAT WOULD DECLARE ALL FAITHS EQUAL, HE WAS VERY ANXIOUS AND CAMPAIGNED TO PUT FORTH A STRONG VOICE FOR THE CHRISTIAN ROOTS OF NEW ZEALAND. HE'S FOLLOWING A MEANINGFUL TRAJECTORY WHICH IS SHAPED IN AMERICAN FRAMEWORK, EXCEPT OF COURSE, HE'S MAORI. AND THAT DOES ADD AN INTERESTING EXTRA DIMENSION TO IT. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU A BIT ABOUT THAT. I WOULD WANT TO COME BACK, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO BE FRANK, BRIAN'S VIEWS ARE ABHORRENT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE. RECENTLY HE SAID THAT GOD SENT A CYCLONE TO THE HAWKE'S BAY TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR WATCHING PORN. IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT FOR HIM. THIS IS A VERY MARGINAL VIEW IN MANY RESPECTS. YES, AND I THINK THAT BRIAN'S GOAL ` IS IN FACT TO SEE HIMSELF AS THE LEADER, TO SEE HIMSELF AS THE EXPRESSION AND THE LEADER OF THOSE WHO FEEL DISGRUNTLED WITH THE 'LIBERAL TREND', AS HE SEES IT, OF NEW ZEALAND SOCIETY. IT'S FAIR TO SAY THERE IS A LIBERAL TREND IN NEW ZEALAND SOCIETY. THE REAL QUESTION IS ` WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT IS THERE FOR THIS ANTI-LIBERAL TREND? ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE THAT TIES INTO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE U.S AS WELL. SOCIETY IS CHANGING, GETTING MORE DIVERSE, AND THERE'S LOTS OF ANALYSIS THAT THERE THAT THE CHURCHES FEEL THAT THAT IS DIMINISHING THEIR ROLE. AND THEY HAVE A FEAR OF THAT. FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW, THERE'S NO FEAR. HIS CHURCH IS IN A STRONG POSITION AS HE WOULD SEE IT. HIS TYPE OF CHURCH IS IN A STRONGER POSITION THAN MANY OF THE TRADITIONAL CHURCHES, AND SO HE MAY WELL IN FACT BE PERHAPS A LITTLE BIT DELUDED ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THE PUBLIC SUPPORT TO THIS. I'D SAY THERE IS A HARD CORE OF ANTI-MANDATES TRADITION, WHICH IS NOW BECOMING ALL SORTS OF OTHER THINGS. ANTI-CO-GOVERNANCE IS THE BIG THING AT THE MOMENT. THOUGH WHERE BRIAN WOULD STAND ON THAT IS AN INTERESTING ONE. BUT I THINK THAT IT IS QUITE A LIMITED SECTOR. I'D PUT IT AT AROUND 5% OF THE POPULATION. DO YOU THINK HE COULD FEEL EMBOLDENED BY WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES WITH ROE VERSUS WADE AND SOME OF THESE BIG CHANGES THAT ARE TAKING PLACE? I THINK HE IS ENORMOUSLY ENCOURAGED BY THAT. HE IS DRAWING A NEW KIND OF POLITICAL CREED FROM THE VERY STRIKING SHIFTS AND DIVISIONS IN PUBLIC OPINION IN THE UNITED STATES. WE UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER THE OUTDOORS AND FREEDOM PARTY, AND POSSIBLY A FARMING GROUP. APART FROM THOSE ANTI-MANDATE VIEWS, THEY HAVE DISPARATE INTERESTS. WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT BEING IN A COALITION WITH SOMEBODY LIKE BRIAN COULD BE LIKE? WELL, WE ALREADY KNOW. IN THE 2008 ELECTION, THERE WAS THE DRAWING TOGETHER OF TWO POLITICAL FACTIONS. OVER SEVERAL ELECTIONS THERE WERE ATTEMPTS AT THIS. IN EVERY CASE, BRIAN DID NOT BEHAVE IN A MANNER THAT ENDEARED HIMSELF TO THE OTHER PARTIES BECAUSE HE MAKES PRE-EMPTORY DECISIONS. HE SEES HIMSELF AS AN ANOINTED APOSTLE, SO WHEN HE SEES SOMETHING CLEARLY, IT DOESN'T OCCUR TO HIM THAT CONSULTATION WITH OTHERS MIGHT BE THE MOST DESIRABLE APPROACH. HE IS USED TO BEING THE RINGMASTER. OH, TOTALLY. HIS CHURCH IS POWERFULLY ENDORSED, SO TO MOVE OUT OF THAT SPACE, AND TO MOVE INTO A MORE PLURALIST SPACE, AND AS YOU SAY, THE ODD THING ABOUT THE FREEDOMS COALITION, IS THAT THEY DON'T REALLY UNITE ON ANYTHING EXCEPT WHAT THEY DISLIKE. THERE'S A SERIES OF NEGATIVES. IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO STATE A PRECISE POSITIVE POSITION. WE ARE LOOKING INTO THE FUTURE HERE A LITTLE BIT, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE FOR BRIAN IF HE DID GET DOWN TO PARLIAMENT? THERE'S A FEW PRECEDENTS FOR PRIESTS IN PARLIAMENT. SOME OF THEM ARE REALLY QUITE STRIKING. ARNOLD NORDMEYER FOR EXAMPLE, OR DAVID CLARK. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELD THIS POSITION, BUT THEY HAVE USUALLY LEARNED THAT THAT MANA DOESN'T APPLY IN PARLIAMENT WHERE YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR WAY THROUGH THE RULES AND SPEAKER AND TRADITIONS OF THAT PLACE. IT WOULD BE AN ENORMOUS LEARNING CURVE, I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT. IT WOULD BE ENTERTAINING. (CHUCKLES) BASED ON THE RESULT LAST ELECTION, 99.9% OF NEW ZEALANDERS SAID 'NO THANKS' TO BRIAN. IT'S A REAL LONG SHOT, ISN'T IT? IT IS A LONG SHOT, BUT THERE IS A SPACE THERE. THE TROUBLE IS LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE VYING FOR THAT SPACE. I'M NOT SURE THAT BRIAN'S SOLUTION IS GOING TO BE THE ONE THAT APPEALS. WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. PLEASURE. A MURI AKE NEI. COMING UP ` OUR PANEL JOSIE PAGANI, THOMAS MANCH AND RON MARK. PLUS, AN AWARD-WINNING FORMER PRINCIPAL ` WILL HE GIVE OUR SCHOOLS A PASS OR A FAIL? WHAT'S GOING WRONG IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM WILL BE A BATTLEGROUND ISSUE THIS YEAR. ALREADY WE'VE SEEN MAJOR POLICY ANNOUNCEMENTS TRYING TO STEM FALLING ATTENDANCE RATES AND ADDRESSING DECLINING LITERACY STANDARDS. HAMISH BREWER IS KNOWN AS THE RELENTLESS PRINCIPAL. HE'S A KIWI WHO'S BEEN TURNING AROUND SOME OF AMERICA'S TOUGHEST SCHOOLS, AND HE JOINS US NOW. GOOD MORNING, HAMISH. GOOD MORNING, REBECCA. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME. IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE. THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE U.S. EDUCATION SYSTEM AND THE NEW ZEALAND EDUCATION SYSTEM, BUT THERE ARE UNIVERSAL THEMES ` WORKING IN COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE'S HIGH POVERTY, CRIME, SOCIAL ISSUES AND KIDS ARE DISENGAGED. AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHILE THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENCES, THERE ARE SO MANY SIMILARITIES. WE ARE HERE FOR CHILDREN AND WE WANT AN OUTSTANDING EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY FOR OUR STUDENTS. WE'RE CHASING OUR STUDENTS FOR ATTENDANCE, FOR ENGAGEMENT, FOR A LOVE OF SCHOOL, MAKING SURE THE SYSTEM IS MEETING THEIR NEEDS SO THEY CAN BE SUCCESSFUL IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION. YOU ARE WORKING IN THE U.S. MOST RECENTLY WITH 11- TO 14-YEAR-OLDS, BUT YOU HAVE ALSO WORKED IN PRIMARY AS WELL. THAT IS A GROUP THAT IS IN CRISIS ` THEY SEEM TO BE ENGAGED IN PRIMARY BUT THEN THEY FALL OFF THE CLIFF AT INTERMEDIATE AGE. WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT STAGE WITH KIDS? WE HAVE TO CHALLENGE THE SYSTEM RIGHT NOW. WE ARE WORKING IN AN ALMOST ARCHAIC SYSTEM. OUR KIDS ARE NOT GROWING UP THE WAY WE ALL WENT TO SCHOOL, HOW WE LEARNT, IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT LEARNING ENVIRONMENT. CHILDREN HAVE INSTANT ACCESS TO INFORMATION. WE CAN ALMOST OUTSOURCE OURSELVES BASED ON THAT ABILITY. WE HAVE TO ENGAGE OUR STUDENTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE CONNECTED TO THEIR LEARNING BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, FUNDAMENTALLY, WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, 'ARE WE PROBLEM-SOLVING, CRITICAL THINKING, 'CREATING COLLABORATORS AND COMMUNICATORS WITH THE ABILITY 'TO APPLY KNOWLEDGE AND BE ABLE TO EXERCISE THE RIGHT 'TO GREAT OPPORTUNITIES LATER ON AND MAKING SURE THERE ARE PATHWAYS'? WE ARE LIMITING PATHWAYS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR OUR KIDS AT TIMES. HOW DO YOU RE-ENGAGE OR KEEP KIDS ENGAGED? WHAT IS THE KEY TO THAT? FIRST OF ALL, SCHOOL SHOULD BE FUN. CAN I GIVE A SHOUT-OUT TO ALL OUR EDUCATORS AND PRINCIPALS OUT THERE THAT ARE WORKING INCREDIBLY HARD FOR STUDENTS. THE TIMES THAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH HAVE BEEN UNPRECEDENTED AND HISTORICAL. THERE WAS NO PLAYBOOK FOR THEM TO TRY AND ENGAGE POST-COVID. WE'RE FIGURING IT OUT. SCHOOL SHOULD BE FUN BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, INSTRUCTION SHOULD BE GREAT, RIGOROUS, HIGH-END, CREATIVE, THERE SHOULD BE OPPORTUNITIES FOR STUDENTS TO PLAY, EXPLORE AND LEARN. ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES IN TERMS OF THAT IS ` PEOPLE ARE LIKE, 'HOW DID YOU GET KIDS TO READ, 'LEARN TO DO MATHS AND WRITING'? WELL, IT COMES DOWN TO THIS ` RIGHT NOW, WE ARE SEEING SO MANY STUDENTS STRUGGLING WITH SCHOOL AND CRYING OUT FOR HELP BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BASIC ACQUISITION OF SKILLSET LOSS. RIGHT? MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE BASIC ACQUISITION OF SKILLS SO THEY CAN APPLY KNOWLEDGE AND APPLY THEIR ABILITY TO LEARN, READ AND WRITE. WE CAN'T TEACH BASIC ACQUISITION OF SKILLSET IN ISOLATION. WE HAVE TO TEACH IT INTERCONNECTED WITHIN OUR CURRICULUM AND CREATING ENGAGING EXPERIENCES FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. PEOPLE ARE LIKE, 'HOW DID YOU GET KIDS TO LEARN TO READ?' I PUT BOOKS IN THEIR HANDS. WE WERE READING ALL DAY LONG. WE WEREN'T MAKING EXCUSES. WE WERE MAKING SURE THEIR TIME WAS VALUED TEACHERS' TIME WAS VALUED, AND INSTRUCTIONAL TIME WAS PROTECTED, AND MAKING SURE WE WERE MAKING THE MOST OF EVERY MINUTE FOR LEARNING. YOU SEE A TURNAROUND IN SCHOOLS YOU HAVE BEEN IN IN SCHOOL SPIRIT. STUDENTS FEELING CONNECTED TO THEIR SCHOOL. AMPLIFYING THE VOICE OF OUR STUDENTS, ADVOCATING FOR OUR STUDENTS, PROTECTING THEIR INDIVIDUALITY AND IDENTITY. IT'S THEIR GREATEST GIFT. TAKING CARE OF STUDENTS TO ENSURE THAT THEY FEEL VALUED, SEEN AND HEARD. KIDS TODAY ARE ASKING THAT QUESTION ` 'WHERE'S MY VALUE? DO I FEEL SEEN, HEARD? DO I FEEL LOVED?' AND THAT IS WHAT EVERY PARENT WANTS. PARENTS WANT TO KNOW THAT WHEN THEIR STUDENT COMES TO SCHOOL THAT THEY FEEL LOVED, SEEN, HEARD. PARENTS WAIT UP LATE AT NIGHT WONDERING, 'IS MY STUDENT SAFE? ARE THEY BEING PICKED ON? 'ARE THEY BEING BULLIED?' THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THAT. THE TRAUMA THAT OUR STUDENTS HAVE BEEN THROUGH IN THE LAST FEW YEARS IS GOING TO BE GENERATIONAL FOR YEARS TO COME. IT'S A CRISIS. WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO STEP IN AND TAKE ACTION. WE'RE NOT USED TO TALKING ABOUT LOVE WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL. DO YOU THINK WE COULD BE BETTER AT THAT? EVERYBODY'S LIKE, 'HAMISH, YOU ROCK AT SCIENCE AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE.' NO, IT'S NOT. IT IS ABOUT WHANAU AND COMMUNITY. IT'S ABOUT PUTTING LOVE AT THE CENTRE OF THE WORK WE DO EACH DAY. ONE OF MY KEY THINGS WAS TELLING STUDENTS, IF SOMEBODY DIDN'T TELL YOU TODAY THEY LOVE YOU, MR BREWER IS TELLING YOU TODAY HE LOVES YOU. WHEN KIDS COME BACK AND SAY, 'MR BREWER, I LOVE YOU. 'THANK YOU FOR STANDING UP FOR ME. THANK YOU FOR PROTECTING ME, NURTURING ME', THERE IS NOT A PARENT OR TEACHER THAT DOESN'T LOVE THAT. I REMEMBER HEARING THAT AND IT IS A POWERFUL THING TO START THE DAY. LOVE IS UNDISPUTED. IT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. WE LIVE IN A WORLD THAT IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY MORE DIVISIVE AND WE NEED TO MAKE LOVE THE CENTRE OF THAT WORK MORE SO THAN EVER BEFORE. WHAT WE SEEM TO BE SEEING FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND FROM THE OPPOSITION AND ALL THE PARTIES IN PARLIAMENT IS MORE OF THE SAME SORTS OF POLICIES TO ARREST LITERACY AND ATTENDANCE RATES, TRUANCY OFFICERS, PLAYING WITH TEACHER RATIOS, MORE TESTING, PRESCRIBED READING, WRITING AND MATHS... IS THAT ENOUGH? NO. WE ARE AVOIDING THE REAL WORK WE HAVE TO DO. WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO A HIGH-TRUST MODEL FOR PRINCIPALS AND TEACHERS. TEACHERS ARE CRYING OUT FOR HELP. TEACHERS ARE SAYING, 'GIVE ME THE RESOURCES, GIVE ME THE FUNDING, 'GIVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT I DO BEST, WHICH IS TEACH.' YESTERDAY, THE ST CUTHBERT'S PRINCIPAL CAME LIVE ON THE RADIO AND TALKED ABOUT THE LACK OF COHERENCE IN OUR CURRICULUM, AND SHE IS 100% RIGHT. WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO HAVE GAPS. WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO COMBINE CURRICULUM. YOU CAN'T COMBINE CURRICULUM KEY CONCEPTS IN MATHS AND SCIENCE AND EXPECT US TO DO GREAT WITH THAT. WE HAVE TO TEACH IT RIGOROUSLY. IT'S HIGH-STAKES FOR OUR KIDS. IT'S A MATTER OF URGENCY. THE MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE WE HAVE, REBECCA, IS PEOPLE. THE MOST IMPORTANT RESOURCE WE HAVE IN NZ IS OUR YOUTH. IT IS THE STUDENTS COMING THROUGH WHEN WE ARE LONG GONE WHO ARE GOING TO BE SOLVING TOMORROW'S PROBLEMS, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE GIVING THEM THE SKILLSET AND THE ABILITY TO ACQUIRE THAT KNOWLEDGE AND IMPLEMENT THAT KNOWLEDGE TO BE SUCCESSFUL. WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM TEACHERS IS THAT THEY'RE BURNED OUT. WE'VE SEEN TEACHERS STRIKING. THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ` YOU NEED TO EMPOWER THOSE TEACHERS. WE HAVE TO AMPLIFY AND ADVOCATE FOR THE VOICES OF OUR TEACHERS, FOR OUR LEADERS, OUR PRINCIPALS, TO ENSURE THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT THEY DO BEST, WHICH IS TEACH. WHEN YOU HEAR PRINCIPALS SAYING THAT THE MINISTRY IS NOT NECESSARILY LISTENING TO THE CURRICULUM EXPERTS WHEN IT'S COMING TO PUTTING TOGETHER A NEW FRAMEWORK AND CURRICULUM, THAT IS A PROBLEM. THESE PEOPLE ARE CURRICULUM EXPERTS. AS A PRINCIPAL, A CORE PART OF MY WORK WAS ENSURING TEACHERS HAD VOICE BECAUSE THEY WERE EXPERTS IN THAT CURRICULUM. WE NEED TO TRUST THEM TO DO THE WORK THEY NEED TO DO. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT OUR OBSESSION WITH TESTING? I'M FOR SOME ACCOUNTABILITY. I'M NOT AGAINST ACCOUNTABILITY BECAUSE THEY DAY I LOOKED AT ACCOUNTABILITY WAS A DAY MY SCHOOL GOT TO SHOW OFF. IT WAS A DAY WE PUT ON DISPLAY THE GREAT INSTRUCTION, THE RIGOROUS INSTRUCTION AND ACTIVITY, AND WE COMPETED AGAINST THE MINIMAL PROFICIENCY TEST. WE CANNOT TEST OUR WAY OUT OF A PANDEMIC, AND YOU CAN'T SPEND THE ENTIRE YEAR TESTING. WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE RIGHT ASSESSMENT TO ENSURE WE GET THE RIGHT INFORMATION, TO GET A LASER FOCUS ON OUR KIDS' PROGRESS. WHAT IS THE ONE THING YOU WOULD DO LOOKING AT THE NEW ZEALAND EDUCATION SYSTEM IF YOU WERE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION? LET'S KEEP IT SIMPLE. LET'S GET BACK TO BASICS. FUNDAMENTALLY FOCUS ON KEY CONCEPTS OF READING, WRITING AND MATHS. LET'S MAKE SURE OUR CURRICULUM IS EMBEDDED IN PROBLEM-SOLVING, CRITICAL THINKING, COLLABORATING, COMMUNICATING AND MAKING SURE THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE CREATIVE. IF WE ARE ASKING OUR AMAZING TEACHERS TO TEACH OUT OF TEXTBOOKS, TO TEACH STAGNANT LIKE THAT, WE'RE LOSING THE MAGIC OF THE NUMBER EIGHT WIRE. THAT'S WHAT MADE US SPECIAL. IT'S OUR ABILITY TO LOOK AT A PROBLEM, CRITICAL THINK, PROBLEM SOLVE IT, AND BE CREATIVE OUTSIDE OF THAT BOX. THAT'S WHAT MAKES US SPECIAL. EDUCATION IN NEW ZEALAND IS A NATIONAL TREASURE. WE HAVE BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF EDUCATION FOR YEARS. WE WANT TO BE BACK THERE AND BACK ON TOP AND WE SHOULD DEMAND THAT FOR OUR KIDS. IS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE COHESION BETWEEN THE POLITICAL PARTIES? ONE WANTS TO DO IT THIS WAY AND ANOTHER COMES IN AND SAYS, 'I WANT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM.' IT KEEPS CHOPPING AND CHANGING. EDUCATION OFTEN COMES IN CYCLES. THERE'S HOT TOPICS THAT REVOLVE AROUND. I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SAY THE DAY I'VE BEEN IN EDUCATION LONG ENOUGH TO SAY, 'WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.' EDUCATION CAN'T BE A POLITICAL FOOTBALL, A POLITICAL NARRATIVE. IT'S A NEW ZEALAND NATIONAL CONVERSATION WHERE PARENTS, TEACHERS, PRINCIPALS, LEADERS, POLITICIANS, EVERYBODY STANDING UP TO SAY, 'WE GOTTA DO GREAT THINGS FOR OUR KIDS. 'WE GOTTA DO GREAT THINGS FOR OUR COUNTRY', BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT A) WILL SET US APART, AND B) IF WE WANT TO COMPETE IN THE FUTURE, AND WE WANT TO KEEP NEW ZEALAND TO THE FOREFRONT OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, WE NEED TO MAKE EDUCATION THE PRIORITY. YOU CAN'T JUST MAKE IT UP. YOU GOT ME EXCITED ABOUT IT ALL OVER AGAIN. HAMISH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION THIS MORNING. THANK YOU. E WHAI AKE NEI ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL JOSIE PAGANI, THOMAS MANCH AND RON MARK. PLUS, AT HOME WITH A WORRIED WHANAU IN AUCKLAND, FEARING FOR FAMILY IN SUDAN. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE JOSIE PAGANI, STUFF POLITICAL REPORTER THOMAS MANCH, AND FORMER DEFENCE MINISTER AND NZ FIRST MP, NOW CARTERTON'S MAYOR, RON MARK. TENA KOUTOU. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. JOSIE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU ARE A COMMENTATOR AS WELL. I'M NOT SURE WHAT LABOUR WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT. FORMER CANDIDATE. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FREEDOMS NZ PARTY. THEY SEEM TO BE ANNOUNCING THAT THEY ARE JOINING UP WITH THE OUTDOOR AND FREEDOMS PARTY. IT IS AN UMBRELLA SITUATION. THOMAS, HOW SERIOUSLY SHOULD WE TAKE THIS? I DON'T KNOW IF WE SHOULD TAKE IT PARTICULARLY SERIOUSLY AT ALL. IT'S A VERY CROWDED SPACE AT THAT END OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM. I SEEM TO REMEMBER LAST YEAR, THERE WAS A TALK OF A COALITION OF SORTS. POSSIBLY TAMAKI. SOMEONE PUT THEIR HAND UP FOR THE LEADERSHIP, AND THE OUTDOORS PARTY SAID, 'HANG ON A MINUTE'. THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE MUCH COHERENCY THEN. I CAN'T IMAGINE THEIR MIGHT BE NOW. THERE SEEMS TO BE A RUMOUR THAT TAMAKI WILL ANNOUNCE THAT HE IS THE LEADER THIS MORNING, BUT THE OUTDOORS AND FREEDOM PARTY ALREADY PUT A PRESS RELEASE OUT AHEAD OF THE EVENT. IT SEEMS TO BE A BIT OF A MESS. IT REMINDS ME SLIGHTLY OF A MONTY PYTHON FILM. 'THE JORDANIAN FRONT WILL FIGHT THE JORDANIAN FRONT'S PEOPLES...' SOMETHING OR OTHER. WAIT FOR ALL THE FACTIONAL FIGHTS. IT DOESN'T FEEL SERIOUS. IT FEELS A BIT LIKE ADVANCE NEW ZEALAND AT THE 2020 ELECTION WHERE THEY BASICALLY BOTTOMED OUT. IT IS GOING TO BE AN ELECTION OF SMALL PARTIES BUT THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE ONE OF THEM. SERIOUSLY, IT IS A SPACE THAT HAS BEEN OCCUPIED BY FRINGE ELEMENTS. IT'S A BIT OF A WASTE OF SPACE, REALLY. BRIAN IS BRIAN. HE WILL NEVER CHANGE IN MY VIEW. IT IS ABOUT BRIAN MORE THAN ANYTHING. IT'S NOT ABOUT FREEDOM? WELL, FREEDOM. THEY'RE GONNA LEARN LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE WHO'S TEMPTED TO DEAL WITH MR TAMAKI THAT HE SEES HIS WAY, AND IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT HE MAKES ANNOUNCEMENTS WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH OTHER PEOPLE. IT IS JUST BRIAN. JOSIE, YOU SAY IT IS ABOUT MINOR PARTIES. WHICH MINOR PARTIES? CLEARLY, TE PATI MAORI IS POSITIONING ITSELF AS A KINGMAKER. IT'S INTERESTING. I WOULDN'T RULE OUT NEW ZEALAND FIRST COMING BACK. RON MIGHT HAVE MORE TO SAY ABOUT THAT. THAT IN ITSELF WILL BE AN INTERESTING INSIGHT INTO WHERE MAORI POLITICS IS BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, TE PATI MAORI IS TALKING AS IF THEY ARE THE SPOKESPARTY FOR MAORI. NEW ZEALAND FIRST IS HOVERING AROUND THAT 3%, 4% AS WELL. THEY ALWAYS CAMPAIGN WELL, SO YOU COULD END UP WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST, TE PATI MAORI, OBVIOUSLY, THE GREENS AND ACT. ACT IS DOING EXTREMELY WELL; THE GREENS ARE HOVERING. AS A FORMER NEW ZEALAND FIRST MEMBER, YOU'RE NOT A CURRENT ONE, ARE YOU? NO. JUST CHECKING. NO, I HAVE MOVED ON FROM THAT. YEAH, WELL, WHERE DOES NEW ZEALAND FIRST SIT IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE? I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO PEOPLE RECENTLY ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE GOING. MY GUT ` AND I HAVE A $100 BET WITH TRACEY MARTIN ` THAT THEY WILL BE BACK THERE. SO, YOU'RE SAYING YES, AND SHE'S SAYING NO, OR THE OTHER WAY ROUND? SHE SAYS NO; I'M SAYING YES. I THINK IT IS IN AN ELECTION AS WE MOVE FORWARD` I AGREE WITH YOU, JOSIE. I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ELECTION FOR MINOR PARTIES, WHERE PARTIES WILL LAMENT THE WASTED VOTE, WHERE VOTERS WILL LAMENT THE WASTED VOTE, AS YOU GET SO MANY PARTIES GETTING 1% OR 2% AND GOES INTO THE POT AND GETS DISTRIBUTED TO THE OTHERS PARTIES WHO ARE FUNDAMENTALLY AGAINST THE POLICIES AND THE PHILOSOPHIES YOU VOTED FOR, IF YOU VOTED FOR BRIAN... IF YOU GO BACK, WAS IT 2002 WHEN THERE WAS A LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN BOTH NATIONAL AND LABOUR? WE WERE GETTING A HISTORY LESSON. A POLITICS LESSON. THOMAS? WE SAW ACT, UNITED FUTURE, NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND GREENS BACK IN THE HOUSE IN GREAT STRENGTH. THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE THIS WEEK, WE SAW THE NATIONAL PARTY CALL THE LABOUR BLOC COALITION CHAOS. THEY'RE BETTING THE BANK THAT WE DON'T LOOK AT THE POTENTIAL CHAOS OF NATIONAL, ACT, NEW ZEALAND FIRST. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT COALITION ON THAT SIDE OF THE DEBATING CHAMBER, THAT COULD BE A COALITION CHAOS AS WELL? WELL, I MEAN... YES. YEAH. IT'S POLITICS. HIPKINS HAS BEEN RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE PERSONNEL ISSUES THAT NATIONAL HAS HAD, AND WHO'S TO SAY ACT WON'T HAVE THEIR OWN TROUBLES? I SAT ON A PLANE COMING HERE. YOU COULDN'T GET MORE RURAL THAN THE GUY I WAS SITTING BESIDE. HE'S NOT VOTING NATIONAL. HE'S VOTING ACT, AND IT'S GONNA BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHETHER ACT BLEEDS ENOUGH NATIONAL VOTES TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR NATIONAL AND ACT TO FORM A COALITION. I AM GOING TO MOVE ON TO THE SECURITY OF THE NATION. THOMAS, YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING A BIT ABOUT THIS OVER THE YEARS. NOW, THERE'S THIS PAY BOOST THAT'S GOING IN. IN YOUR OPINION, IS IT ENOUGH TO STEM THE TIDE OR IS IT TO KEEP THE FORCE VIABLE? I FEEL LIKE IT'S A 'KEEP THE FORCE VIABLE' SITUATION AT THIS POINT. IT'S GONNA TAKE MORE, WAGE INFLATION WILL CARRY, AND IT ALMOST FEELS THEY ARE PLAYING CATCH-UP. YOU'VE SEEN THAT WITH THE CHIEF OF DEFENCE PUTTING $60M INTO ONE-OFF PAYMENTS. THEY ALREADY DID THAT THIS YEAR, DIDN'T THEY, AND NOW THEY'VE GOT THE PAY BOOST AS WELL. RON MARK, YOU'VE BEEN IN THE HOT SEAT AS A FORMER DEFENCE MINISTER, WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE THE GOVERNMENT ABOUT THE SHAPE OF THE DEFENCE FORCE? THIS IS THE START. IT'S A GOOD START. HATS OFF TO ANDREW LITTLE. HE HAS DONE MORE IN TWO MONTHS THAN WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST TWO YEARS AND I CAN TELL YOU THERE HAS BEEN A DISTINCT UPLIFT IN MORALE AT ALL LEVELS OF THE DEFENCE FORCE BASED ON WHAT HE'S DOING. HE IS TAKING THE JOB SERIOUSLY. YOU COULDN'T HAVE PICKED A BETTER GUY, BECAUSE HE'S GOT HIS HEAD ACROSS SIS, GCSB... THIS IS A FIRST SHOT, AND THE MINISTER OF FINANCE HAS TO GET HIS HEAD AROUND IT, AND HIS TREASURY OFFICIALS HAVE TWO STOP SAYING TO DEFENCE, 'YOU HAVE HAD YOUR DAY IN THE SUN. THERE'S NO MORE MONEY.' THERE'S BEEN $4.7B WORTH OF CAPITAL SPENDING AND NOW THERE'S THIS EXTRA MONEY AS WELL. THAT WAS IN MY TIME, BUT YOU NEED TO KEEP AHEAD OF THAT BOW WAVE, TO KEEP AHEAD OF THAT BOW WAVE AND PREVENT RUNNING INTO THAT WALL OF OBSOLESCENCE WHERE YOU HAVE TO THROW IN TONS OF MONEY. AREN'T WE ALREADY ON THE WALL OF OBSOLESCENCE? WE'VE GOT SHIPS TIED UP AND MONEY'S RETIRED... YOU TALK OBSOLESCENCE AS OPPOSED TO STAFFING. WE'VE GOT THE P8s HERE NOW, THE C-130s ARE COMING, THE BUSHMASTERS ARE HERE... THERE'S A WHOLE RAFT OF NEW CAPABILITIES THAT WE GOT THROUGH, BUT THEY CAN'T SIT AND RIDE ON THE BACK OF THAT. THEY HAVE TO INVEST $1.5B EVERY YEAR TO KEEP IN LINE WITH THE 2019 CAPABILITY PLAN AND KEEP AHEAD OF THE BOW WAVE. DO WE NEED TO SPEND THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, JOSIE, SO OUR ALLIES THINK WE ARE TAKING SECURITY SERIOUSLY? WE CERTAINLY HAVE TO UP OUR GAME. THE DEFENCE FORCE DOES AMAZING WORK IN THE PACIFIC EVERY TIME THERE IS A CYCLONE OR AN EMERGENCY. WE HAVE AN AMAZING REPUTATION AS HONEST PLAYERS WHO WORK WELL WITH LOCAL COMMUNITIES, SO YES, WE DO HAVE TO SPEND THAT MONEY. I KNOW WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT AUKUS, AND I THINK THAT'S ONE WHERE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY, IT'S ABOUT WHERE WE POSITION OUR DEFENCE FORCES, AND THIS WILL BE CRITICAL FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE'VE GOT A GEOPOLITICAL WORLD WHERE WE'VE GOT A U.S. BLOC ON ONE SIDE AND A CHINA BLOC ON THE OTHER SIDE. WE ARE BEING ASKED TO MAKE CHOICES ALL THE TIME. WE SHOULDN'T BE MAKING THOSE CHOICES, IT'S REALLY HARD, BUT WE DO NEED TO DO WHAT JANET YELLEN CALLS FRIEND SHORING. MAKE OUR OWN FRIENDS. FIND COUNTRIES LIKE US ` JAPAN, CANADA, KOREA... THOMAS, IS IT HARD FOR NEW ZEALAND TO PROJECT AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY WHEN YOU HAVE GOT THIS PRESSURE THAT IS GOING ON? PRESSURE FROM ALLIES SAYING ARE YOU GOING TO JOIN THIS OR SIGN THAT. I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING ANDREW LITTLE'S COMMENTS BECAUSE HE BACKED OFF COMMENTS WHAT HE SAID EARLIER IN THE YEAR ROUND... HE HAD A MEETING WITH KURT CAMPBELL, THE U.S. WHITE HOUSE INDO-PACIFIC TSAR, WHO CAME OVER AND SAID, 'WE WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT PILLAR TWO.' ANDREW LITTLE SAID, 'WE'D BE HAPPY TO EXPLORE THAT CONVERSATION.' EVERYONE TOOK THAT AS BEING NZ WOULD BE INTERESTED IN PILLAR TWO. HE WAS BACKING OFF A BIT. HIPKINS AND MAHUTA HAVE LED THAT, SO I THINK THERE'S BIG CONVERSATIONS TO BE HAD. IT'S ABOUT THAT INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY AND THE PERCEPTION OF... WHAT IS OUR INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY IN THE CONTEXT OF AUKUS. MARK, SHOULD WE BE PART OF PILLAR TWO OF AUKUS? (SIGHS) I'M NOT SURE. IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT DETAIL. ANDREW'S BIGGEST ISSUE IS SHORING UP THE CONFIDENCE OF OUR PARTNERS IN NEW ZEALAND. WE HAVE GONE FROM THE POINT OF BEING CONSIDERED BACK IN THE GAME, INTERESTED IN OTHER PEOPLE'S SECURITY, AND TRADE DOORS START TO OPEN. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT DEFENCE. IT'S ABOUT TRADE, ECONOMY, IF YOU WANT TO TRADE WITH ME, I NEED TO KNOW YOU ARE GENUINELY CONCERNED ABOUT MY SAFETY, SECURITY. DO YOU THINK OUR ALLIES HAVE BEEN LOOKING IN ASKANCE AT NEW ZEALAND AND ITS SPENDING ON DEFENCE? NOT JUST EVERYBODY. EVERY EMBASSY IS WATCHING WHAT WE DO. SOUTHEAST ASIA, THE PACIFIC ISLANDS... WHY ARE THE PACIFIC ISLANDS CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT WE'RE SPENDING ON DEFENCE? BECAUSE THEY ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE. THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE THE CAPABILITIES TO COME TO THEIR AID WHEN THEY NEED IT, AND WE ALL KNOW THEY ARE NEEDING OUR AID MORE FREQUENTLY TO BIGGER AND HEAVIER WEATHER EVENTS THAN EVER BEFORE. GOTTA WRAP THIS UP. LAST QUICK COMMENT. WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE PACIFIC COS THEY HAVE BEEN NAVIGATING THIS TENSION BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA FOR A LONG TIME. YOU LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE FIAME, PRIME MINISTER FIAME OF SAMOA. SHE WAS VERY CLEAR ` 'DON'T PICK US OFF INDIVIDUALLY. 'WE WILL RESPOND REGIONALLY NOT COUNTRY BY COUNTRY.' WE SHOULD TAKE THAT POSITION NOW, AND GO, 'HEY, DON'T PICK US OFF. 'WE'VE GOT FRIENDS THAT ARE LIKE US, 'SMALL DEMOCRACIES THAT HAVE THE SAME VALUES 'WHO ARE TRYING TO STRADDLE BOTH WORLDS.' I'M GONNA LEAVE IT RIGHT THERE. SORRY, RON. I KNOW YOU'VE GOT LOTS MORE TO SAY, BUT JOSIE PAGANI, THOMAS MANCH, RON MARK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATOU. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IS UNFOLDING IN SUDAN, DISPLACING 700,000 PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. SUDANESE KIWIS WITH WHANAU IN SUDAN SAY THEY FEEL SCARED FOR THEM AND ARE CALLING ON HELP FROM OUR GOVERNMENT. FINN HOGAN VISITED ONE SUCH FAMILY IN AUCKLAND, THE BASHIRS, WHOSE AUNTIES, UNCLES AND COUSINS ` STILL IN SUDAN ` ARE TRYING TO FLEE THE FIGHTING. THE BASHIR FAMILY ` SUDANESE KIWIS PUTTING ON A BRAVE FACE. IT'S HONESTLY LIKE A FEELING I'VE NEVER HAD BEFORE. IT'S, AGAIN, REALLY HARD TO PUT INTO WORDS TO KNOW WHEN YOU SEE THOSE NUMBERS AND STATISTICS OF DEATHS EVERY DAY THAT COULD HAVE` THAT'S SOMEONE'S FAMILY MEMBER, AND IT EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN OURS. COULD HAVE BEEN THEIRS, BECAUSE THE REST OF THEIR FAMILY, INCLUDING AUNTS, UNCLES AND COUSINS, ARE TRAPPED IN A WAR ZONE. THE ONLY WAY FOR US TO GO THROUGH IS THROUGH WHATSAPP. AND WE JUST TRIED TO CALL THAT, YOU KNOW, BUT WE CAN'T GET THROUGH. WE CAN'T ALWAYS GET THROUGH. AND HOW DOES IT FEEL WHEN YOU CAN'T GET IN TOUCH WITH YOUR FAMILY WHEN YOU KNOW THEY'RE IN THE SITUATION LIKE THEY'RE IN RIGHT NOW? IT'S VERY SAD. IT'S VERY WORRYING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T GET HOLD OF THEM. THEIR FAMILY FLED FROM INTENSE FIGHTING IN THE CAPITAL, ESCAPING HARROWING SCENES OF VIOLENCE. YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR THE GUNFIRE, YOU HEAR THE AIR FORCE GOING AND THEN IN SOME PART OF THE CAPITAL, YOU COULD WALK AROUND AND YOU FIND, LIKE, DEAD BODIES. THERE IS NO FOOD. THEY LOST ELECTRICITY AND WATER FOR A FEW DAYS. THERE IS NO MEDICAL AID. THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PASSED AWAY BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET THE IMMEDIATE MEDICAL AID. WHILE THEIR FAMILY'S SAFE FOR NOW, THE BASHIRS ARE CALLING ON GOVERNMENT TO STEP UP. I THINK ACKNOWLEDGE IT FOR WHAT IT IS. YEAH, ACKNOWLEDGE THE CRISIS REALLY FOR WHAT IT IS AND THE EXTENT OF THE DETERIORATION THAT WE'RE SEEING. AND JUST KNOW THAT FOR EVERY ONE OF US HERE, WE HAVE FAMILY BACK HOME, YOU KNOW, WANTING SAFETY. AND YEAH, IT'S KIND OF` YOU DO FEEL THAT SURVIVOR'S GUILT AND THAT PRIVILEGE BEING SO FAR AWAY, AND WE WISH WE CAN BRING OUR FAMILIES OVER HERE TO HAVE THAT SAME PRIVILEGE. WHILE THE SCALE OF THE CONFLICTS IS DIFFERENT, THE BASHIRS ARE HOPING FOR A SIMILAR VISA PATHWAY FOR THE FAMILY OF SUDANESE KIWIS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALREADY OFFERED TO UKRAINIANS. YOU KNOW, OUR COMMUNITY HERE ` THERE'S NOT A SINGLE PERSON THAT'S NOT AFFECTED. THERE'S NOT A SINGLE PERSON THAT DOESN'T HAVE FAMILY. SO WE JUST HOPE FOR SAFETY. JUST LIKE THE GOVERNMENT MOVED VERY SWIFTLY IN TERMS OF THE RESPONSE TO THE UKRAINE CRISIS, WHICH WE'RE NOT ARGUING IN THAT RESPONSE. IT'S VERY RIGHT. IT'S THE CORRECT THING TO DO. BUT WE WANT, YOU KNOW, AN EQUALITY OF GOVERNMENT DISCRETION IN HOW THEY SUPPORT DIFFERENT CRISES AROUND THE WORLD. AND THEY SAY TIME IS RUNNING OUT. IN ALL HONESTY, WE FEEL INSANELY HELPLESS RIGHT NOW. AND THAT THE PAIN THEY FEEL IS SHARED BY THEIR WHOLE COMMUNITY. PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED, YOU KNOW, DEEPLY AFFECTED BY THIS. SOME FAMILIES HERE AND N NEW ZEALAND, THEY LOST COUSINS. THEY LOST FAMILY MEMBERS. THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. THEY SHOW SUPPORT FOR OTHER NATIONS. THEY NEED TO SHOW SUPPORT TO SUDAN. NGA MIHI NUI ` THANK YOU TO THE BASHIR WHANAU FOR SHARING THEIR STORY. THE LAST OFFICIAL STATEMENT ON SUDAN FROM FOREIGN MINISTER NANAIA MAHUTA WAS ON APRIL 21. SHE SAID THE GOVERNMENT IS DEEPLY CONCERNED BY THE CONFLICT AND IS MONITORING IT CLOSELY. WELL, NO SUCH NUANCE IN THE HOUSE THIS WEEK, WITH THE SPEAKER BOOTING PARTY LEADERS FROM THE CHAMBER HAND OVER FIST. HERE'S FINN HOGAN WITH A WEEK OF ARGY-BARGY IN WELLINGTON. RAWIRI WAITITI: HIKA MA! I AHAHA! WELL, THINGS STARTED A LITTLE SPICY IN THE CHAMBER THIS WEEK. THE SPEAKER PUTTING HIS FOOT DOWN AND BOOTING OUT TE PATI MAORI. MEMBERS, I WAS INFORMED THIS MORNING THAT ALL PARTIES HAD AGREED TO THAT BY TE PATI MAORI. I WAS SUBSEQUENTLY INFORMED BY A NUMBER OF PARTIES THAT THAT WAS NOT THE CASE. RAWIRI WAITITI WILL LEAVE THE CHAMBER, AND DEBBIE PACKER` NGAREWA-PACKER WILL LEAVE THE CHAMBER AS WELL. THE SPEAKER WASN'T DONE THERE ` SHOWING MARAMA DAVIDSON THE DOOR FOLLOWING REPEATED INTERJECTIONS. MARAMA DAVIDSON WILL LEAVE THE CHAMBER. (MURMURING) NOW, PLEASE. AND EVEN THE PM WAS EARNING HIS IRE. THE MEMBER IS JUST MAKING THINGS UP. (SHOUTING) IN FACT, I AM SPECIFICALLY... PRIME MINISTER WELL KNOWS HE CANNOT... MAKE THAT SORT OF STATEMENT ABOUT ANY MEMBER. BUT THERE WERE SOME LIGHTER MOMENTS, TOO, LIKE DISABILITY MINISTER PRIYANKA KRISHNAN STEPPING UP TO ANSWER A QUESTION IN SIGN LANGUAGE. TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE NEW ZEALAND SIGN LANGUAGE THRIVE. WELL, IF MORE MINISTERS FOLLOWED HER LEAD, WE'D CERTAINLY HAVE A QUIETER CHAMBER. (SHOUTING) BUT I THINK THERE'S LITTLE HOPE OF THAT. LITTLE HOPE OF THAT IN AN ELECTION YEAR. A LOT MORE NOISE TO COME. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND SAM BAKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023