TENA TATOU KATOA, I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. NAU MAI, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. THIS MORNING, NO BUDGET BUMP FOR LABOUR, BUT COULD A NEW POLICY DO THE TRICK? WE ARE LIVE TO WELLINGTON WHERE SIMON SHEPHERD IS WITH THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. SCRUTINY STRESS ` ADRIAN ORR FEELS PERSONALLY ATTACKED AT HIS PRESS CONFERENCE, BUT WHY? AND FINN HOGAN IS HERE WITH HIS DIGITAL POWER RANKINGS AND WHAT'S BEEN MAKING WAVES ONLINE. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 WELL, LABOUR'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN UNOFFICIALLY BEGINS TODAY. PARTY MEMBERS ARE GATHERING IN WELLINGTON FOR THE LABOUR PARTY CONGRESS AT TE PAPA, AND WE HAVE OUR MAN ON THE GROUND THERE TOO, SIMON SHEPHERD, WHO JOINS US NOW. AND SIMON, WHAT'S HAPPENING DOWN THERE? AH, YES, GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY. THIS IS A PACKED ROOM OF 400 DELEGATES, LABOUR THROUGH AND THROUGH. THEY'RE LISTENING TO PRESIDENT JILL DAY GIVE THE OPENING REMARKS AT THE MOMENT ` WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A MORNING OF HEAVY HITTERS HERE. AFTER HER IS GOING TO BE DEPUTY LABOUR LEADER KELVIN DAVIS, GRANT ROBERTSON AND CARMEL SEPULONI. SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT HERE IS THE PRIME MINISTER. HE'S BEEN GIVEN A LEAVE OF ABSENCE THIS MORNING TO GO AND WATCH HIS KIDS' FOOTBALL GAME IN UPPER HUTT, BECAUSE HE'S BEEN TRAVELLING SO MUCH IN THE LAST SEVEN DAYS, AND HE HASN'T SEEN THE KIDS. HE'LL BE BACK, THOUGH, TO SEE GRANT ROBERTSON GIVE A SPEECH AND FROM THE CONFERENCES THAT I'VE SEEN BEFORE WHEN GRANT ROBERTSON GETS UP, IT'S ALL ABOUT ATTACKING THE OPPOSITION. HE ALWAYS PUT ON A GOOD SHOW, DOESN'T HE, SIMON? AND FOR THOSE OF US NOT STEEPED IN LABOUR PARTY MINUTIAE, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CONGRESS AND A CONFERENCE? AH, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. IT'S ALL ABOUT ELECTION YEAR. NORMALLY A CONFERENCE LABOUR HOLDS IS TOWARDS THE END OF THE YEAR AND THEY GO THROUGH THE MINUTIAE OF DEVELOPING POLICY PROTOCOL AND PROCEDURE ` THIS YEAR, THEY BOUGHT IT FORWARD. IT'S CALLED A CONGRESS BECAUSE IT'S ELECTION YEAR. IT'S NOT ABOUT DEVELOPING THOSE PROCEDURES, IT'S ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW THE CANDIDATES. ALL THE NEW CANDIDATES THAT ARE GOING TO BE STANDING IN OCTOBER. THEY EVEN HAVE A 'MEET THE CANDIDATES' SESSION THIS AFTERNOON. AND ONE PARTICULAR ONE THAT I'VE SORT OF PICKED OUT IS MR WHIPPY ` HIS NAME IS GEORGE HAMPTON, HE'S STANDING FOR NORTH SHORE IN AUCKLAND. HE IS A FRANCHISE OWNER OF MR WHIPPY, BUT HE'S ALSO A FULBRIGHT SCHOLAR, HARVARD EDUCATED AND A FORMER ADVISOR TO HELEN CLARK... (AUDIENCE APPLAUDS DISTANTLY) SO IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE THAT RANGE OF NEW CANDIDATES UP ON STAGE LATER ON. YEAH, VERY DIVERSE BACKGROUND THERE. BUT THERE ARE PROMISES, TOO, SIMON, OF A NEW POLICY TODAY? THAT'S RIGHT. IT SEEMS THAT LABOUR HAS DECIDED TO DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND OVER SUPER ` THAT'S THEIR PHRASE. AND OVERNIGHT, THEY RELEASED COSTINGS THAT THE LABOUR PARTY LEADERS' OFFICE HAS DONE, WHICH CLAIMS TO SHOW THAT A 30-YEAR-OLD WOULD BE ABOUT $100,000 WORSE OFF BY THE TIME THEY HIT RETIREMENT IF NATIONAL AND ACT'S POLICIES ON SUPERANNUATION AND KIWISAVER WERE IMPLEMENTED. LABOUR HAS REALLY SENSED A VULNERABILITY THERE. AND WE SORT OF BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE KIND OF LINE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE CARRYING ON TO RUN TODAY. IT'S ABOUT COUNTERING THAT 'COALITION OF CHAOS' LINE THAT CHRIS LUXON IS RUNNING OUT, AND THEY'RE GOING HEAVILY ON THAT SORT OF 'COALITION OF CUTS' LINE. I'M SURE WE'LL HEAR A LOT ABOUT THAT TODAY. YEAH, IT'S AN INTERESTING BATTLEGROUND. WE LOOK FORWARD TO COMING BACK TO YOU VERY SOON. SIMON SHEPHERD THERE IN WELLINGTON. WELL, LET'S GO LIVE NOW TO JILL DAY, WHO IS LABOUR'S PRESIDENT. SHE IS STIRRING UP THE CROWD, RALLYING THE TROOPS, WITH AN OPENING ADDRESS. ...THAT DELIVER A THIRD TERM FOR OUR LABOUR GOVERNMENT. (CROWD APPLAUDS) EVERY MEMBER, ALL OF US, OUR PEOPLE, YOU ARE WHAT HAS ALWAYS AND WILL ALWAYS BE WHAT MAKES OUR PARTY LABOUR. OUR PRIME MINISTER WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, OUR PARTY WILL REMAIN PRINCIPLED. OUR LEADERS WILL ALWAYS STRIVE FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE, AND OUR PARTY WILL HOLD TO OUR STRONG FOUNDATIONS. WE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT UPHOLD TE TIRITI, AND THE PARTY THAT LIVES ITS VALUES. WE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT OPEN OUR DOORS TO ALL, AND THE PARTY THAT MAKES EVERYONE FEEL LIKE THEY BELONG. THIS IS WHO WE ARE. THAT IS WHAT WE STAND FOR. KO TATOU TE ROPU REIPA, KO TE ROPU REIPA KO TATOU. YOU ARE THE LABOUR PARTY AND THE LABOUR PARTY IS ALL OF US. NO REIRA E TE WHANAU, O TE ROPU REIPA. IN THE WORDS OF OUR PRIME MINISTER, LET'S GET ON WITH IT. NO REIRA, TENA KOUTOU, TENA KOUTOU, TENA KOUTOU KATOA. (CROWD APPLAUDS) WELL, THAT IS THE NEW LABOUR PARTY PRESIDENT JILL DAY THERE, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING TO KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT HER. BUT AS WE HEARD EARLIER, WE'RE EXPECTING A POLICY TODAY FROM DEPUTY PM CARMEL SEPULONI ` WE'RE EXPECTING THAT TO DROP DURING HER SPEECH AT 11:30. BUT SIMON SHEPHERD SAT DOWN WITH HER MOMENTS AGO TO TRY TO EXTRACT WHAT WE CAN EXPECT FROM THAT POLICY. AND IT'S SOMETHING TO DO WITH SAFEGUARDING OUR FUTURE, AROUND SUPERANNUATION, AND JUST REALLY DRAWING A LINE IN THE SAND TODAY IS WHAT WE'RE DOING. SO SAFEGUARDING THE FUTURE ` ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE CURRENT NEW ZEALAND SUPER RATES AREN'T ENOUGH TO LIVE A DIGNIFIED LIFE? ARE YOU RAISING THEM? WELL, WE CERTAINLY KNOW THAT OUR UNIVERSAL SCHEME WORKS FOR NEW ZEALANDERS. WE'VE HAD FEAR-MONGERING, REALLY, FROM THE OPPOSITION PARTIES ` ACT HAS ALREADY SAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO LIFT THE AGE. WE'VE HAD NATIONAL IN THE PAST CUT CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE SUPERFUND, WHICH PUTS OUR SUPERANNUATION AT RISK. AND SO IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND. A LINE IN THE SAND. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU'RE NOT TOUCHING SUPER, OR ARE YOU TINKERING WITH SUPER? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I'M GOING TO ANNOUNCE TODAY WHAT WE'RE DOING AS A POLITICAL PARTY. I WON'T DO IT IN THIS INTERVIEW, BUT WE'RE VERY PROUD OF THE SUPERANNUATION SCHEME THAT WE'VE GOT AND BELIEVE THAT IT'S IMPORTANT. OK. IS THE SUPERANNUATION SCHEME SUSTAINABLE? IT'S $18bn A YEAR AT THE MOMENT, RISING FAST AND THE PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION THAT'S GOING TO BE ELIGIBLE IS ALSO RISING FAST TOO. TREASURY SAYS IT'S AFFORDABLE, AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE GO BY. AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE SUPERANNUATION FUND, THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. WE LOST ABOUT $24bn WHEN THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO STOP CONTRIBUTING. I THINK THAT'S A VERY CLEAR INDICATION THAT THEY ARE NOT THE BEST MANAGERS OF THE ECONOMY. WHY ARE YOU CHOOSING SUPERANNUATION TO DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND? LABOUR RELEASED COSTINGS OVERNIGHT ABOUT HOW IN THEORY SOMEBODY WOULD BE WORSE OFF UNDER A NATIONAL-ACT COALITION IN TERMS OF SUPER. WHY SUPERANNUATION? BECAUSE DOESN'T IT OPEN YOU UP TO THIS IDEA THAT YOU'RE NOT FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE SUPERANNUATION COSTS ARE GOING TO BLOW OUT? WELL, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BLOW OUT. TREASURY HAS ALREADY SAID THAT THEY WON'T AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE SUPERFUND, WHICH LABOUR HAS ALWAYS BEEN COMMITTED TO. KIWISAVER WAS DEVELOPED BY A LABOUR PARTY, BY A LABOUR GOVERNMENT. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WASN'T SUPPORTED BY A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, BUT IF WE DIDN'T HAVE IT, THEN THOUSANDS OF NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD NOT HAVE SAVINGS GOING INTO RETIREMENT, WHICH IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT. BUT IT'S NOT A HOLISTIC THING. NATIONAL IS PROPOSING TAX CUTS, AND THEY'RE ALSO` ACT'S SAYING WE WILL TAKE THAT MONEY TO REDUCE DEBT AND MAYBE IT COULD GO INTO OTHER AREAS OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING, MORE PRODUCTIVE ONES. WELL, THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT TAX CUTS, BUT THEY HAVEN'T SAID WHAT THEY WOULD NEED TO CUT IN ORDER TO PROVIDE THOSE TAX CUTS. I THINK WE NEED A LITTLE BIT OF PUBLIC TRANSPARENCY AND HONESTY WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC BECAUSE NEW ZEALANDERS DESERVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY WILL BE GIVING AWAY AND THAT MAY INCLUDE SUPERANNUATION IF THEY'RE GETTING TAX CUTS. OK, SO IN TERMS OF TRANSPARENCY, DO YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE WAY THE NEW ZEALAND SUPERANNUATION, SET UP AT THE MOMENT IN TERMS OF AGE ELIGIBILITY FOR MAORI AND PASIFIKA? WELL, CERTAINLY THE EVIDENCE IS THERE TO SUPPORT THAT MAORI AND PACIFIC UNFORTUNATELY DIE YOUNGER. THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO WORK IN THOSE LABOUR-INTENSIVE JOBS WHICH MEAN THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO WORK PAST 65 OR THEY WILL NEED SUPER. AND YET STILL WE DO SEE A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF MAORI WORKING BEYOND 65 BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT FINANCIALLY THEY NEED TO. SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT SERIOUSLY. THE RETIREMENT COMMISSIONER HAS SUGGESTED A ROPU, AN ADVISORY BOARD, ON MAORI AND PACIFIC ELIGIBILITY FOR SUPERANNUATION. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE CONSIDERING? WOULD YOU CONSIDER DROPPING THE AGE OF NZ SUPERANNUATION ELIGIBILITY FOR MAORI AND PACIFIC... NO, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW, BUT WE DO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE INVESTING... SO THAT'S NOT PART OF THIS POLICY, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? WE'RE INVESTING IN OUR HEALTH SYSTEM TO ACTUALLY EXTEND THE AGE OR... YOU KNOW, LIFE EXPECTANCY OF MAORI AND PACIFIC SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE DISPARITY THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. OK, SO CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT DROPPING THE AGE OF ELIGIBILITY FOR CERTAIN ETHNICITIES? DON'T WANT TO ANNOUNCE THE POLICY NOW, BUT CLEARLY... BUT YOU COULD RULE THAT PART OUT, COULDN'T YOU? CLEARLY IN YOUR ASKING ME, BUT CLEARLY THAT'S NOT THE CASE. THAT IS NOT THE CASE, ALL RIGHT. SO ARE YOU GOING TO INCREASE BENEFITS? ARE YOU GOING TO INCREASE THE SUPER RATE? WE ALREADY DID THAT ON THE 1st OF APRIL, AND WE'VE DONE THAT A NUMBER OF TIMES OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST FIVE YEARS. SO WE'VE BEEN VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON ALL NEW ZEALANDERS, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT ARE ON LOW TO MIDDLE INCOME NEW ZEALANDERS. WE SAW BENEFITS GO UP, STUDENT ALLOWANCES GO UP, SUPERANNUATION GO UP ON THE 1ST OF APRIL AND SO WE'VE CERTAINLY BEEN FOCUSED ON DOING THAT` AND MINIMUM WAGE AND WE'VE MADE THOSE SHIFTS. LET'S GO BACK TO FISCAL SUSTAINABILITY. IS NEW ZEALAND OUT OF STEP WITH OTHER COUNTRIES WHO ARE SIMILAR, I.E AUSTRALIA? SO FROM JULY THIS YEAR, TO GET THE AGED PENSION IN AUSTRALIA, YOU WILL HAVE TO BE 67. WELL, 65, AS I SAID CURRENTLY, ACCORDING TO ALL THE RESEARCH, IS STILL AFFORDABLE FOR US IF WE CONTINUE TO INVEST IN THE SUPER FUND. ALSO IN TERMS OF... THE AMOUNT THAT SUPERANNUATION COSTS US, WE'RE ACTUALLY SPENDING LESS AS A COUNTRY THAN OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE OECD ON AVERAGE. BUT THE OECD HAS RECOMMENDED TO NEW ZEALAND TO RAISE THE AGE. WE'RE NOT SPENDING AS MUCH AS OTHERS, IN ACCORDANCE WITH GDP. AND SO I THINK THAT IT'S VERY CLEAR, ACCORDING TO THE FIGURES THAT WE'VE BEEN GIVEN, THAT IT IS STILL AFFORDABLE. ARE YOU SURE, THOUGH, THERE ARE NOT UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES FOR OTHER AREAS LIKE HEALTH AND EDUCATION IF YOU CARRY ON WITH ELIGIBILITY AT 65? NOT IF WE CONTINUE TO INVEST IN THE SUPERFUND, AND WE TAKE A RESPONSIBLE APPROACH TO THE OVERALL ECONOMY, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY WHAT WE'VE DONE. I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO DISPEL THIS MYTH THAT'S OUT THERE THAT NATIONAL ARE GOOD AT MANAGING THE ECONOMY. I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO THE FACT THEY STOP INVESTING IN THE SUPERFUND. THAT COST NEW ZEALANDERS $24bn. AND SO THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY THAT WE MISS OUT ON BECAUSE OF THEIR DECISION MAKING. SO LABOUR IS REALLY FOCUSING IN ON THIS. YOU BELIEVE THERE'S A CHINK IN NATIONAL'S AND ACT'S ARMOUR HERE, THAT NEW ZEALANDERS ACTUALLY WANT TO KEEP THEIR SUPERANNUATION ELIGIBILITY AT 65, DESPITE THE COST. NEW ZEALANDERS WANT ASSURANCE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE SUPPORTED WHEN THEY GO INTO THEIR RETIREMENT. THEY ALSO WANT TO BE ASSURED THAT IT IS AFFORDABLE. SO IT'S ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE ABLE TO PROVIDE THAT ASSURANCE, BUT THAT WE'RE DOING WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE TO ENSURE THAT WE'RE ABLE TO PAY FOR THESE THINGS IN THE OUT YEARS. YEAH. SO IT'S THE COALITION OF CUTS LINE. YOU HAVE COME OUT AHEAD OF THE CONGRESS, WHICH IS A 'RA-RA' SITUATION TO GET LABOUR UP AND RUNNING FOR ELECTION. AND YOU'VE COME OUT ATTACKING. IS THIS THE COALITION OF CUTS LINE THAT THE PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN RUNNING? WELL, THEY ARE A COALITION OF CUTS, LET'S BE FAIR ON THAT. THEY ALSO HAVE NOT BEEN HONEST AND TRANSPARENT WITH NEW ZEALANDERS AROUND HOW THEY ARE GOING TO PAY FOR THEIR TAX CUTS. NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO KNOW THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE SUPPORTED. THEY ALSO WANT TO KNOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND THE SUPPORTS THEY NEED THROUGH HEALTH AND EDUCATION ARE GOING TO BE THERE FOR THEM, SO WE NEED TO KNOW FROM THE OPPOSITION WHAT THEY ARE. THIS CONGRESS IS ABOUT LABOUR PARTY POLICY. SO JUST SORT OF, ONE FINAL CHANCE, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE RELEASING TODAY, TINKERING AROUND THE EDGES OF NEW ZEALAND SUPER? I'M GOING TO ANNOUNCE IT THIS MORNING. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE THAT WITH THE PARTY MEMBERSHIP THAT ARE HERE. AND SO YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT A LITTLE WHILE, SIMON. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER CARMEL SEPULONI, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. SIMON SHEPHERD THERE WITH CARMEL SEPULONI, WHO'S CLEARLY PUSHING SUPERANNUATION AS A BATTLEGROUND AT THE SOFT LAUNCH OF LABOUR'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN, BUT WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO THE CONFERENCE NOW, AND TO KELVIN DAVIS, WHO IS GIVING A SPEECH. ...SADLY THERE ARE POLITICAL PARTIES IN NEW ZEALAND THAT DO NOT SHARE OUR WORLDVIEW AND VALUES. THEY ARE DISINGENUOUS AND THEY LACK AUTHENTICITY. WE KNOW THEIR WORLDVIEW IS DOMINATED BY THE COST OF EVERYTHING AND THE VALUE OF NOTHING. ONE SMALL EXAMPLE IS THEY ARE BEMOANING THE COST OF PRODUCING AND DISTRIBUTING THE MATARIKI KARAKIA BOOKS THAT WILLOW-JEAN PRIME LAUNCHED TWO WEEKS AGO. I THINK THEY COST ABOUT` JUST OVER $3 EACH. THEY IGNORE THE VALUE ` THEY KNOW THE COST, BUT THEY IGNORE THE VALUE THAT THOSE SAME BOOKLETS WILL BRING TO THE THOUSANDS OF COMMUNITIES ACROSS AOTEAROA AS WE LOOK TO CELEBRATE MATARIKI AGAIN THIS YEAR. WE KNOW THAT WHENEVER THEY ARE IN GOVERNMENT, THE INTERESTS OF THOSE IN REAL NEED TO GOES BACKWARDS, WHILE THE INTEREST OF THEIR MATES... ALWAYS IMPROVES. LET'S LOOK AT THE ACT PARTY ` A GROUP WHOSE POLICY PROPOSALS ARE SO LUDICROUS, IT'S OFTEN HARD TO KNOW IF THEY'RE SERIOUS OR JUST DESIGNED TO INFURIATE. (CROWD CHUCKLES) THEIR VALUE SYSTEM IS THE ANTITHESIS... KELVIN DAVIS THERE, ADDRESSING THE LABOUR PARTY CONGRESS IN WELLINGTON. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` WE WILL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL MIKE WILLIAMS, ISOBEL EWING AND DILEEPA FONSEKA SOON. PLUS, DIGITAL EDITOR FINN HOGAN WITH THE TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS OF OUR MPs ONLINE. WELL, THE YEAR IS RACING BY, AND IT'S NOW JUST FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS UNTIL THE ELECTION. THIS WEEK, THINGS BEGAN HEATING UP ONLINE, WITH THE ARRIVAL OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE INTO CAMPAIGNING. IT IS RUFFLING A FEW FEATHERS AND IT'S RAISING A FEW QUESTIONS ` NOT LEAST OF ALL FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON WHO SEEMED TO HAVE NO IDEA THAT HIS PARTY WAS USING THE TECHNOLOGY. NEWSHUB NATION'S DIGITAL EDITOR FINN HOGAN IS HERE TO DISSECT WITH US. FINN, WHO IS UP AND WHO IS DOWN ONLINE? GOOD MORNING, REBECCA. WELL, IF WE LOOK AT THE TOP 10 MPs ON FACEBOOK OVERALL, IT'S NOT A SUPER PRETTY PICTURE FOR GOVERNMENT. YOU GOT DAVID SEYMOUR WAY OUT AHEAD, FOLLOWED BY CHRIS LUXON AND THEN YOU GOT WINSTON PETERS COMING IN THIRD. CHRIS HIPKINS IS ACTUALLY LANGUISHING WAY DOWN IN 10th, WELL BEHIND EVEN HIS OLD BOSS, JACINDA ARDERN, WHO BARELY EVEN USES SOCIAL MEDIA THESE DAYS. BUT I DO THINK THAT IS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE, IN PART, ON HIPKINS', BECAUSE HE NOTICED WHAT A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD SOCIAL MEDIA BECAME FOR ARDERN, SO I THINK HE'S SORT OF HAPPY MOVING A BIT MORE INTO THE BACKGROUND ` BUT STILL, OVERALL, NOT A TOP 10 THE GOVERNMENT'S PROBABLY TOO PLEASED ABOUT. THAT IS SO INTERESTING. WHAT ABOUT THE PARTIES THEMSELVES, FINN? AS OPPOSED TO JUST THE LEADERS. WELL, AGAIN, SORT OF CONTINUING THAT TREND, IF YOU LOOK AT NATIONAL, THEY ARE WAY OUT AHEAD; THEY'VE ALMOST GOT DOUBLE THE OVERALL ENGAGEMENT THAT LABOUR DOES. COMING IN SECOND IS THE OUTDOORS AND FREEDOM PARTY, WHICH OBVIOUSLY RECEIVED QUITE A BUMP WHEN THEY RECENTLY ANNOUNCED THEY WERE ALIGNED WITH BRIAN TAMAKI. AND THEN YOU'VE GOT LABOUR COMING IN THIRD, FOLLOWED BY ACT AND TE PATI MAORI. AND THE GREENS DON'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP FIVE ON THIS, WHICH IS A LITTLE INTERESTING, PARTICULARLY CONSIDERING THEY RECENTLY ANNOUNCED THEIR LIST. BUT, OF COURSE, THAT KIND OF NEWS DOESN'T REALLY BLOW UP THE SOCIAL` THE GREEN VOTER TENDS TO SKEW A LITTLE BIT YOUNGER. BUT ALSO THE CAVEAT ON ALL OF THIS IS THAT THIS IS REPRESENTING OVERALL ENGAGEMENT ` THAT'S BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE. SO THIS DOESN'T NECESSARILY TRANSLATE TO VOTES. BUT STILL, IF WE COMBINE THAT AND THE TOP 10, STILL A LITTLE BIT OF A BETTER STORY FOR OPPOSITION. THESE NUMBERS ARE FROM FACEBOOK, FINN, BUT HOW RELEVANT IS FACEBOOK AS A PLATFORM THESE DAYS? YES, THIS IS A QUESTION, ISN'T IT? WELL, I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA IN GENERAL IS A LITTLE BIT IN DECLINE. AND I THINK FACEBOOK IS PRIMARILY FOR OLDER KIWIS NOW, WHO ARE OBVIOUSLY MORE LIKELY TO VOTE, SO IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE IMPORTANT IN THAT SENSE, BUT YOUNGER KIWIS ARE TENDING TO EITHER LOG OFF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPLETELY OR MOVE TO PLATFORMS LIKE TIKTOK. TIKTOK, OF COURSE, COMES WITH ITS OWN HOST OF ISSUES. IT'S NOT EXACTLY A TENABLE PLATFORM FOR POLITICKING WHEN IT'S BANNED ON PARLIAMENTARY DEVICES. YEAH. MOVING OVER TO TWITTER, THAT COMES WITH ISSUES AS WELL, AS TWITTER IS INCREASINGLY UNSTABLE, BOTH TECHNICALLY AND AS A BUSINESS. SO I THINK THE ERA OF SOCIAL MEDIA IS GOING THROUGH A TRANSITIONAL PHASE, AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE INCREASINGLY OTHER TOOLS, BOTH SUPPLANT SOCIAL MEDIA AND SUPPLEMENT IT. LIKE A.I, PERHAPS? (LAUGHS) YES, WHAT A LOVELY SEGUE WE JUST DID. YES, NATGPT HAS ENTERED THE CHAT, AND I THINK ELECTIONEERING MAY NEVER BE THE SAME. LOOK, I THINK WE CAN'T REALLY CREDIT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FOR MUCH SO FAR, IN TERMS OF NATIONAL. I THINK THE DISCOURSE AROUND THEIR USE OF THOSE TOOLS PROBABLY GAVE THEM MORE OF A BUMP THAN THE ACTUAL TOOLS THEMSELVES. BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS THAT A.I RIGHT NOW IS BASICALLY JUST BEING USED TO STREAMLINE THE CREATION OF PHOTOS, STREAMLINE THE CREATION OF TEXT. IT'S KIND OF LIKE A SUPER-POWERED MICROSOFT WORD OR ADOBE PHOTOSHOP. BUT IT'S MOVING INCREDIBLY QUICKLY. I DID THE FIRST STORY ON THE CHAT GPT PREDECESSOR FOR THE NATION LATE LAST YEAR, AND FRANKLY, IT'S A LITTLE BIT FRIGHTENING HOW FAST AND HOW FAR IT'S COME, AND SO I THINK WE ARE IN A BIT OF A POLITICAL PIVOT POINT NOW, CONSIDERING HOW POWERFUL THESE TOOLS ARE BECOMING, AND HOW DEEPLY ENTRENCHED THEY ARE BECOMING ONLINE. WE REALLY NEED TO START ASKING PRETTY SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW MUCH OF OUR POLITICAL PROCESS WE'RE WILLING FOR THEM TO TOUCH. YEAH, NEXT THEY'LL BE UP TO POLICY. IT'S SUCH A FAST MOVING AREA, FINN. WHAT IS ON THE HORIZON AS WE LOOK TOWARDS THE ELECTION, NOW ONLY FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS AWAY? YEAH, SO, IF WE LOOK INTERNATIONALLY, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN FULLY A.I GENERATED ATTACK ADS USED BY THE REPUBLICANS IN THE U.S. AND THESE TOOLS ARE, AS I MENTIONED, BECOMING INCREASINGLY IMBEDDED IN EVERY ONLINE PLATFORM THAT WE USE, AND THEY'RE INCREASINGLY CAPABLE OF ACTING WITH MINIMUM HUMAN INPUT, LIKE CREATING INCREASINGLY SOPHISTICATED OUTPUTS ON VERY LITTLE HUMAN INPUT, SO I THINK THE WORRY IS, AS WE LOOK TOWARDS THE FUTURE, IF WE DON'T REGULATE, AS A CANDIDATE, I COULD VERY SOON USE A SUITE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TOOLS TO WRITE MY SPEECHES, GENERATE MY IMAGES, HELP PLAN MY CAMPAIGNS, DRAFT MY TALKING POINTS, CLONE MY VOICE AND MY LIKENESS AND CREATE VERY CONVINCING CONTENT WITHOUT HAVING ME NEEDING TO BE THERE PHYSICALLY WHATSOEVER. AND SO, WHEN YOU SPEAK TO A.I RESEARCHERS, WHO ARE PARTICULARLY WORRIED IN THIS SPACE, THEY WARN THAT IF WE DON'T REGULATE, THE CURRENT ELECTION CYCLE THAT WE'RE IN COULD BE THE LAST SORT OF HUMAN-ONLY ELECTION CYCLE, AND THAT MEANS BY THE TIME THAT WE GET TO OUR NEXT ELECTION CYCLE, INSTEAD OF ELECTIONS BEING PRIMARILY A BATTLE OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, AND WHO CAN MOST CONVINCINGLY EXPRESS IT, WE MIGHT END UP WITH A SITUATION WHERE IT'S A BATTLE OF WHO HAS THE MOST ADVANCED AND EXPENSIVE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE MODEL. AND IF WE GET THERE, THAT COULD HAVE PRETTY PROFOUND CONSEQUENCES FOR OUR DEMOCRACY. ABSOLUTELY. I WOULDN'T MIND AN A.I DOUBLE, THOUGH, AS WE HEAD INTO THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, HELP ME WITH MY WORKLOAD. THANK YOU SO MUCH FINN. ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU IN THE STUDIO. PLEASURE TO BE HERE. A MURI AKE NEI ` EARLY CHILDHOOD TEACHERS ARE IN CRISIS. WHAT THAT MEANS FOR OUR TODDLERS AND PRE-SCHOOLERS. PLUS, WHY THE RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR FELT PERSONALLY ATTACKED THIS WEEK. THAT'S COMING UP AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. WELL, IT WAS A BIG WEEK DOWN IN WELLINGTON, WITH THE MUCH-ANTICIPATED OFFICIAL CASH RATE ANNOUNCEMENT ON WEDNESDAY. OFTEN IT SEEMS LIKE THE RESERVE BANK AND ITS GOVERNOR SPEAK THEIR OWN LANGUAGE; LIVE IN THEIR OWN MONETARY POLICY BUBBLE; THEIR ANALYSIS AND COMMENTARY IS FOCUSED ON MORTGAGE HOLDERS AND FINANCIAL MARKETS. BUT WE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT ADRIAN ORR, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION-MAKERS IN OUR ECONOMY, HAS TO SAY TO ORDINARY WORKING PEOPLE; THOSE WHO ARGUABLY FEEL THE PAIN OF THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS MOST. SO HERE IS OUR POLITICAL EDITOR JENNA LYNCH WITH THE RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR. THERE'S ALWAYS A LOT OF FOCUS ON MORTGAGE HOLDERS, BUT WHAT ABOUT EVERYDAY WORKING NEW ZEALANDERS? THE 430,000 PEOPLE THAT ARE FALLING BEHIND ON THEIR LOANS, STRUGGLING TO PAY BILLS, STRUGGLING TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE; WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THEM? OUR MESSAGE TO THEM IS THAT INFLATION IS NO ONE'S FRIEND, AND IT IS INFLATION THAT IS CAUSING THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC CHALLENGE AT PRESENT TO ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. AND OUR JOB IS TO RETURN INFLATION BACK TO ITS 1% TO 3%. WHAT I'D LIKE TO SAY TO THEM IS THAT WE'RE WELL ON THE PATH TO ACHIEVING THAT. BUT THOSE SAME PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT WOULD BE HURT IN A RECESSIONARY ENVIRONMENT, IN A DOWNTURN. THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE A MAJOR FEATURE IN ANY OF YOUR COMMENTARY OR ANALYSIS. WHY IS THAT? I DISAGREE WITH YOUR SUPPOSITION. THERE IS SIGNIFICANT, IN FACT, AN ENTIRE CHAPTER AROUND THE LABOUR MARKET, LABOUR FORCE AND MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE EMPLOYMENT. THOSE PEOPLE CAN'T ` IN YOUR WORDS ` 'COOL THEIR JETS' WITH THEIR SPENDING. THEY'RE BORROWING TO GET THE BASICS. AND WHAT THEY HEAR FROM YOU IS THAT WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS WHAT WE'RE HOPING TO OBSERVE. DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE IN TOUCH WITH THE PAIN THAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING RIGHT NOW? I DON'T KNOW THAT COMMENT, WHAT YOU` SO WHAT I'M SAYING IS ABSOLUTELY, WE'RE IN TOUCH. INFLATION IS NO ONE'S FRIEND. AND WE ARE HERE TO STAMP INFLATION OUT WITH MONETARY POLICY. I WILL ALSO POINT OUT THAT UNEMPLOYMENT HAS BEEN AT RECORD LOW LEVELS. EMPLOYMENT AND EMPLOYMENT ENGAGEMENT IN THE ECONOMY IS AT OECD RECORD LEVELS, BUT WE NEED TO CONSTRAIN INFLATION. AND DO YOU PERSONALLY TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE INFLATIONARY ENVIRONMENT THAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW? I AM THE GOVERNOR OF THE RESERVE BANK. YES, I DO. IN TAKING SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE INFLATIONARY ENVIRONMENT WHICH WE FIND OURSELVES IN, ON REFLECTION, WERE ANY OF YOUR ACTIONS AVOIDABLE, AND DO YOU REGRET ANY OF THE ACTIONS THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN? I REGRET THAT THE PUBLIC OF NEW ZEALAND HAS HAD TO SUFFER THROUGH THIS HIGH INFLATION PERIOD. I ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT'S BEEN THE CASE INTERNATIONALLY, THROUGH THIS STORY. BUT IN TERMS OF THE DECISION MAKING THAT WE'VE HAD TO MAKE THROUGH IT AS A COMMITTEE, NO. WE HAVE TALKED AND PUBLISHED OUR FULL REVIEW, AND I WILL REMIND LISTENERS THAT THAT IS PUBLIC AND IT WAS INTERNATIONALLY REVIEWED AND IS AVAILABLE. AND WE TALKED ABOUT, PROBABLY IN HINDSIGHT AT BEST, WE COULD HAVE STARTED RAISING INTEREST RATES 3 TO 6 MONTHS EARLIER THAN WHAT WE ACTUALLY DID, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SMALL BARE DIFFERENCE WITH REGARDS TO THE END INFLATION OUTCOME. AND DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'VE BEEN ADEQUATELY ACCESSIBLE, ACCOUNTABLE AND FACED AN ACCEPTABLE LEVEL OF IN-DEPTH SCRUTINY OVER WHAT IMPACT YOUR DECISIONS HAVE HAD ON THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS IN NEW ZEALAND? CAN I REMIND THAT IT'S A COMMITTEE DECISION, BECAUSE I'M FEELING VERY PERSONALLY ATTACKED HERE, SO I WILL JUST REMIND YOU OF THAT. IT'S A MONETARY POLICY COMMITTEE, AND YES, I DO. WE ARE IN FRONT OF THE PUBLIC VERY OFTEN, AND WE'RE IN FRONT OF PARLIAMENT VERY OFTEN. AND IN FACT, AT 8 AM TOMORROW MORNING, I'M BACK IN FRONT OF THE FINANCIAL EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE MEETING, AND WE HAVE DONE SIGNIFICANT INTERNATIONAL REVIEWS AND WE ARE ONE OF THE MOST, IF NOT THE MOST TRANSPARENT CENTRAL BANK ON PLANET EARTH. BIG CALL BY THE RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR ADRIAN ORR, WHO WE'VE BEEN ASKING FOR AN IN-DEPTH INTERVIEW FOR 12 MONTHS. WITH ME NOW IS OUR POLITICAL PANEL, NEWSHUB'S CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT ISOBEL EWING, FORMER LABOUR PARTY PRESIDENT MIKE WILLIAMS, AND DILEEPA FONSEKA, WHO IS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT FOR BUSINESSDESK ` GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO YOU ALL. SOME REALLY AWKWARD MOMENTS THERE WITH ADRIAN ORR, SORT OF RESPONDING TO THIS DIFFERENT LINE OF QUESTIONING. HE SAID HE FELT PERSONALLY ATTACKED AT ONE POINT. BUT THAT'S SCRUTINY, ISN'T IT? THAT'S A BIT JOB HE'S GOT, MIKE. IT IS, BUT HE'S GOT TO WALK A TIGHTROPE. PEOPLE HANG ON HIS EVERY WORD. AND THERE IS REALLY IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS OF WHAT HE SAYS, SO I DO HAVE SOME SYMPATHY FOR HIM. HE MADE THE POINT THAT ONE OF THE OBJECTIVES IS LOW UNEMPLOYMENT, AND HE'S GOT THAT. SO I THINK HE DEFENDED HIMSELF FAIRLY WELL. I DON'T THINK HE WAS JUSTIFIED IN SAYING HE WAS UNDER ATTACK. WHAT DID YOU THINK, ISOBEL? I FEEL LIKE PERHAPS HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BRIEFED BETTER. SEEMED LIKE THAT QUESTION CAME OUT OF THE BLUE FOR HIM. 'WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING?' HE JUST DIDN'T SEEM PREPARED. ONE OF THE GREAT ANSWERS TO JENNA, HE SAID 'I DON'T KNOW THAT COMMENT.' AND HE KEPT REPEATING THAT INFLATION IS NOBODY'S FRIEND, BUT EVERYONE IS AWARE OF THAT. SO PERHAPS A LACK OF PREPPING FOR HIM ON THAT QUESTION. IT WASN'T HIS NATURAL HABITAT, WAS IT? WHAT DO YOU THINK, DILEEPA? YOU ARE STEEPED IN THE MYSTERY OF THE RESERVE BANK. THE SYSTEM IS SET UP SO THAT HE IS NOT THE MOST POPULAR GUY IN THE ROOM. AT A PERIOD OF HIGH INFLATION, IT IS SET UP SO THAT HE'S INDEPENDENT, SO HE CAN MAKE A HARD CALL, AND AN UNPOPULAR CALL. WHAT HE PERHAPS DID NOT EXPLAIN VERY WELL WAS THAT IT'S SET UP SO THAT HE IS THE SECOND RESPONDER. THE GOVERNMENT COMES IN WITH THEIR BUDGET, AND THEY'RE MEANT TO DEAL WITH THE SOCIAL ISSUES, AND COST OF LIVING ISSUES, AND THE RESERVE BANK IS MEANT TO STEP IN IN RESPONSE AND SAY THIS IS 'WHERE THE OFFICIAL CASH RATE NEEDS TO BE 'IN ORDER TO KEEP INFLATION DOWN.' SO WE'VE SET HIM UP A LITTLE BIT THERE, TO BE FAIR, TO BE THE UNPOPULAR GUY IN THE ROOM. WHEN YOU'RE PULLING THOSE LEVERS, YOU ARE SERVING ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RELATE TO THE EXPERIENCE OF EVERYBODY, DO YOU THINK, MIKE? I THINK HE HAS TO, AND HE WILL KNOW THAT. HE KIND OF DEFENDED THAT WITH THE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS. IF YOU ARE FEELING THE PINCH, GET A BETTER JOB. I WANT TO MOVE ON BECAUSE IT IS AN EXCITING DAY IN WELLINGTON, AT TE PAPA, IT IS THE LABOUR PARTY CONGRESS. WE HAVE SEEN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO GO ON THE ATTACK. WE'VE HEARD A COALITION OF CUTS, AND THE SUPER POLICY. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT AS A BATTLEGROUND FOR THE ELECTION? IT'S A BIT OF A STRANGE POLICY, BECAUSE IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A BATTLEGROUND PEOPLE WANT TO DISCUSS. PART OF THE REASON WE'VE HAD SUCH DIFFICULTY IN THIS DEBATE IS BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO DISCUSS THE SUPERANNUATION ISSUES. ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS, AUSTRALIA IS MAKING CHANGES IN THIS AREA, BECAUSE THE BIG ISSUE WITH SUPERANNUATION IS NOT WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE RETIRING 10, 20, 30 YEARS FROM NOW, IT'S PEOPLE GOING INTO RETIREMENT IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS WHO WILL BE LIVING LONGER, AND THEREFORE IN 20 OR 30 YEARS, WE WILL POTENTIALLY HAVE A BIG BUDGET PROBLEM. ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT THIS IS WHAT IS BEING WHEELED OUT AT CONGRESS, MIKE? I AM NOT THAT SURPRISED, BECAUSE I WAS LISTENING VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT CARMEL SEPULONI SAID, AND SHE WAS ALSO ATTACKING NATIONAL'S REPUTATION OF BEING A BETTER ECONOMIC MANAGER. THEY DID IN FACT STOP PAYMENTS INTO THE CULLEN FUND, WHICH COST US $24 MILLION. SO I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE ATTACK ON NATIONAL. I'M A BIT SURPRISED THAT SUPERANNUATION IS AN ISSUE, BECAUSE I HAVEN'T NOTICED IT AS AN ISSUE. IT IS INTERESTING. ISOBEL? I WOULD AGREE WITH MIKE. I THINK IT IS QUITE A SHREWD BATTLEGROUND TO TAKE, AS IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO FEED INTO THE RHETORIC OF THIS IS A COALITION OF CUTS, AND A REMINDER OF WHAT YOU LOST UNDER A FORMER NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. PERHAPS THAT IS THE STRATEGY. IS IT UNUSUAL, MIKE, TO GO ON THE ATTACK AT A CONGRESS? I THINK OF THESE THINGS AS INWARD-FOCUSED, BUT THIS IS LINING UP NATIONAL AND ACT. IT IS UNUSUAL, BUT I THINK NECESSARY, GIVEN THEIR POSITION IN THE POLLS. THEY ARE NOT USING HALF THE AMMUNITION THAT IS OPEN TO THEM. YOU'VE GOT SOME IDEAS? GOT A LITTLE POWERPOINT HERE. I'LL GIVE YOU THIS. THIS IS A REPORT ON BROOKE VAN VELDEN. OH, MY GOSH. YES? SHE SAYS THEY ARE GOING TO CUT KIWISAVER SUBSIDIES, SCRAP THE WINTER ENERGY PAYMENT, LOWER BENEFITS, PUT INTEREST BACK ON STUDENT LOANS AND REDUCE PUBLIC SERVANTS' SALARIES. THAT IS A WONDERFUL MEAL FOR THE LABOUR PARTY. YOU CAN TAKE THE LABOUR PARTY PRESIDENT OUT OF THE PARTY, BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE IT OUT OF THE MAN, OR SOMETHING... DILEEPA, IT WAS A BIT OF A GRIM WEEK, MAYBE A SOBERING WEEK FOR LABOUR WITH THE POLL OUT. DO YOU THINK THE HONEYMOON IS OVER FOR HIPKINS? WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE POLLING, AT BUSINESSDESK WE HAVE A ROLLING AVERAGE OF POLLS, ONE OF THE THINGS WE NOTICED WAS THIS WAS THE FIRST WEEK THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON, OR NATIONAL HAS EDGED AHEAD. WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW THOSE AVERAGES GO OUT, IT'S ACTUALLY, A LOT OF LABOUR'S POPULARITY IS GOING UPWARDS WHEN YOU HAVE THE STORM EVENT, OR THE CYCLONE, AND IT'S BEEN TRENDING DOWN. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU WOULD SAY THAT NATIONAL, PERHAPS, THERE'S AN ARGUMENT OUT THERE THAT NATIONAL ISN'T DOING AS WELL AS IT COULD HAVE, WHICH HAS CAUSED SOME OF THE OTHER TENSIONS THIS WEEK. ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE SEEN CHRISTOPHER LUXON INCH ONE POINT HIGHER. IT IS QUITE UNUSUAL TO HAVE THE PARTY DOING WELL, BUT IF IT WAS AN ELECTION TOMORROW, WE MIGHT HAVE A PRIME MINISTER WHO IS NOT SUPER POPULAR. IT SEEMS LIKE THE NOTION OF CHRISTOPHER LUXON BEING INEXPERIENCED AND SHAKY ON HIS FEET, COMPARED TO THE POLITICAL ANIMAL THAT IS CHRIS HIPKINS, SEEMS TO BE POTENTIALLY BEDDING IN A LITTLE BIT. DILEEPA AND I WERE BOTH AT A PRESS CONFERENCE WITH CHRIS LUXON LAST WEEK, OR EARLIER THIS WEEK, AND HE SEEMED VERY UNNERVED BY THAT POLL RESULT AND UNSETTLED BY IT. AND THEN WE SEE HIM AT A PUBLIC MEETING IN BIRKENHEAD, AND POTENTIALLY JUST HAVING ANOTHER 'WHOOPS' MOMENT, WHERE HE COMES OUT AND SAYS THE MEDIUM DENSITY HOUSING RULES WERE PERHAPS A MISTAKE. SO MAYBE A BIT UNEASY ON HIS FEET, COMING INTO AN ELECTION YEAR, ALLOWING SOME EASY WINS FOR LABOUR. IT'S VERY LATE TO BE FINDING YOUR FEET. THAT WAS A KIND OF CASE IN POINT, THAT'S A BIG SHIFT IN POLICY, BECAUSE THEY MADE A BIG DEAL OF IT BEING A BIPARTISAN ACCORD. IF THEY PLAN TO TAKE AWAY FROM IT, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU ANNOUNCE IT. IT LOOKED LIKE HE ACCIDENTALLY SAID SOMETHING, AND THEN THEY DIDN'T TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY MEANT FOR A LITTLE WHILE. I GUESS WE WILL SEE IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS WHAT THAT MEANS. AND THERE WERE OTHER THINGS HE SAID IN THAT MEETING, AROUND MAORI NAMES ON SIGNS, AND IT JUST LOOKED PANICKY. THERE IS A WAY OF GOING ABOUT THIS IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A POINT. IT LOOKED LIKE HE WAS PANICKED BY THE CROWD, AND SEEMED TO MAKE SOME POINTS THAT HE DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY OUT LOUD. WHICH WAS GREAT FOR US JOURNALISTS, BUT NOT GOOD IF YOU WANT TO BE ELECTED PRIME MINISTER. AND SORT OF UNDERMINING HIS DEPUTY, NICOLA WILLIS, WHO WAS SO INSTRUMENTAL IN THAT BIPARTISAN ACCORD WITH CHRIS BISHOP. AND LETTING THAT OUT, YOU HAVE TO THINK THAT BEHIND THE SCENES, THERE MIGHT BE SOME TENSION. MAYBE SOME COACHING FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON? IT'S NOT EVEN CLEAR THAT THAT WAS COSTING THEM POPULARITY. ALL THROUGH LAST YEAR THIS WAS A POSITION THEY HAD, AND THEIR POPULARITY ONLY ROSE. SO WHAT IS THE STRATEGY HERE, WHAT VOTES ARE THEY TRYING TO GET? I THINK THE DANGER IS THAT CHRIS LUXON APPEARS TO BE TRYING TO SECURE THE 25% OF PEOPLE WHO VOTE NATIONAL ANYHOW, WITH THE LIVE CATTLE EXPORTS, AND THE HOUSING POLICY. I WOULD MAKE A POINT ` WHAT THESE POLLS, AND THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL OVER THE LAST WEEK, HORIZON HAD LABOUR AND THE GREENS AHEAD, IT WILL BE A VERY NEAR RUN THING. SO IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU LOOK AT TWO THINGS ` WHO WILL SHINE IN THE CAMPAIGN? HELEN CLARK WAS THE DISCOVERY OF THE CAMPAIGN IN 1996. DIDN'T WIN, BUT SHE WAS THE DISCOVERY OF THE CAMPAIGN. PHIL GOFF FLOPPED. I REMEMBER. SO DID JUDITH COLLINS. IF LUXON SHINES IN THE CAMPAIGN, HE'S GOT A CHANCE. THE OTHER THING IS WHO PARTICIPATES? THE NON-VOTE VARIES BETWEEN 20% AND 30%. IF IT'S MORE LIKE 20, LABOUR GETS BACK IN. IF IT'S MORE LIKE 30, ITS A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. IT IS GOING TO BE SO INTERESTING, A DRAG RACE RIGHT TO THE END. I'M SO INTERESTED IN WHO WILL STAY HOME TOO. WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THAT FOR ANOTHER DAY. THANKS FOR JOINING US ON THE PANEL THIS MORNING. E WHAI AKE NEI - WE'LL CHECK IN WITH SIMON FOR THE LATEST FROM THE LABOUR PARTY CONGRESS, AND THE FARMER-TURNED-MP WHO LEARNED TO SEND HIS FIRST EMAIL AFTER HE'D ENTERED PARLIAMENT. TIME NOW FOR ONE OF MY FAVOURITE PARTS OF THE SHOW ` BACKSTORY. WHEN ACT MP MARK CAMERON ENTERED PARLIAMENT HE OWNED ONLY ONE SUIT, AND HIS PARTNER HAD TO TEACH HIM HOW TO SEND AN EMAIL. THE HALLS OF POWER WERE ANOTHER PLANET FOR THIS FARMER OF 33 YEARS. IT'S BEEN A JOURNEY FOR THE MP, WHO'S HEART REMAINS AT HOME ON HIS FARM IN RUAWAI. SO WE TRAVELLED TO HIS PICTURESQUE TAI TOKERAU PARADISE TO HEAR HIS BACKSTORY. (TRACTOR MOTOR REVS) 33 YEARS I'VE BEEN IN RUAWAI ` CRACKING GOOD PLACE. (BIRDS CHIRP) THE HOME IS WHERE THE HEART IS, AND IT'S CERTAINLY HERE FOR ME IN NORTHLAND. SO MANY OF MY NEIGHBOURS KNOW WHO I AM, I KNOW THEM, AND WE SHARE THE PASSION OF WHAT WE DO IN RURAL NEW ZEALAND. YOU CAN'T NOT TALK ABOUT A COW AT SOCIAL EVENTS. IT'S ONE OF THESE BARBECUES ` SOMEONE'S ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH MILK IS BEING MADE OR HOW LITTLE IS BEING MADE. OH, MY FAVOURITE COW, GRACIOUS ME, SHE'S HERE SOMEWHERE. DARLING WAS HER NAME AND SHE'S ABSOLUTE DARLING, BIG FRAMED, FANTASTIC UDDER, AND YEAH, SHE HAPPENS TO BE A FAMILY PET, SO. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY PART OF THE FAMILY. I WAS BORN IN AUSTRALIA IN THE EARLY '70s. THAT'S MY MOTHER. I WAS RAISED BY A SOLO MUM. YOU KNOW, MY MOTHER LEFT MY FATHER FOR REASONS THAT EVERYONE HAS ` DIFFICULTIES IN A MARRIAGE. I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW MY BIOLOGICAL FATHER UNTIL I WAS IN MY 30s. I MET HIM WHEN I WAS, GRACIOUS ME, I THINK I WAS 33. IN THE INTERIM, MY MOTHER REMARRIES. I WAS EIGHT GOING ON NINE THERE. AND WHAT A TREMENDOUS MAN. HE REALLY TAUGHT ME THE VALUE OF ALL THINGS. YEAH, NOW AND AGAIN WE GET A BIT STRETCHED ON FARM OR IN PARLIAMENT, BUT EQUALLY SO, I'M EXCEEDINGLY LUCKY I'VE GOT A PARTNER THAT RUNS THIS FARM IN MY ABSENCE. I GOT ON A DATING WEBSITE AND I WAS LIKE, 'OH MY LORD, WHAT AM I DOING?' AND JODIE ANSWERED, RIGHT, SO GOOD STORY. WENT OUT TO DINNER IN WHANGAREI, AND THE FIRST QUESTION HE ASKED ME WAS, WOULD I PREFER BATMAN OR SPIDER-MAN? YEAH, I ACTUALLY DID, RIGHT. WELL, IT'S A SPANDEX THING, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, BATMAN, CERTAINLY THE BETTER KIND OF PERSON. AND HOW SHE ANSWERED DECIDED WHETHER WE WENT OUT ON A SECOND DATE. AND I CHOSE BATMAN. SO THAT WAS APPARENTLY THE RIGHT ANSWER TO CHOOSE. SHE'S THE BOSS OF ME, REALLY. I'M SELDOM` I LIKE THE SOUND OF THAT. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. NO, IT'S REALLY COOL. AND IT'S A SHARED JOURNEY, RIGHT? WE LOVE WHAT WE DO IN RURAL NEW ZEALAND, AND WE LOVE FARMING. AND I THINK AS A FAMILY, YOU KNOW, OUR CHILDREN HAVE ALL GROWN UP IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEIR PARENTS, TO SOME DEGREE, HAVE A FARMING BACKGROUND, LOVE OF FARMING, LOVE OF THE LAND. WE'VE GOT FOUR CHILDREN BETWEEN US. I'VE GOT TWO OLDER CHILDREN. I'VE GOT TWO YOUNGER ONES. YEAH, VERY CAPABLE YOUNG PEOPLE. AND WE'RE, YEAH, BLOODY PROUD OF THEM. IMMENSELY PROUD. YEAH. OH, I SUFFERED, YOU KNOW, DEPRESSION QUITE BADLY, AND A LOT OF IT IS ISOLATION. BLOKES ARE SHOCKING AT COMMUNICATING. AND I THINK THE THING IS WHEN YOU'RE ISOLATED, YOU'RE A MALE ANYWAY, AND YOU'RE` YOU'RE ROUGH AND TUMBLE. YOU'RE A FARMER, RIGHT? SO YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE ISSUES. BUT REALLY AND TRULY YOU DO. AND I LEARNT TO ACTUALLY GET RID OF IT, AND` FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD, BY ACTUALLY SHARING THE STORY AND SAYING, 'HEY, LOOK, YOU CAN BE 'AS BIG AND STRONG AND AS CAPABLE AS YOU LIKE, 'BUT IN ALL THAT YOU'RE STILL HUMAN.' AND SO NOW I GO AND HELP OTHER PEOPLE... ADVOCATE FOR ` IT'S ALL RIGHT TO NOT BE ALL RIGHT. AND EQUALLY, YOU CAN STILL BE A BLOODY GOOD FARMER OUT THE OTHER SIDE OF IT. WHEN WE WERE KIDS, MY MOTHER REMARRIED AND HAD MY YOUNGER BROTHER AND YOUNGER SISTER AS WELL. VERY SADLY FOR US AS A FAMILY, MY YOUNGER BROTHER PASSED AWAY WITH CANCER WHEN HE WAS IN HIS EARLY 20s. SO THAT'S HARD FOR US TO SEE, BECAUSE THE FAMILY'S CHANGED. OH, GRACIOUS ME, I TALK TO THREE PEOPLE IN A WEEK UP IN RUAWAI, AND EQUALLY SO YOU TALK TO 30 IN THE SPACE OF AN HOUR DOWN IN PARLIAMENT, BUT IT'S ABOUT REPRESENTING WHAT I DO, AND I GENUINELY LOVE FARMING. AND I THINK FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, HAVING LOVED IT MY ENTIRE LIFE AND WANTING TO DO IT SINCE I WAS A LITTLE GUY, YOU TAKE THAT STORY INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S THINKING, AND YOU TAKE IT TO PARLIAMENT, AND BY VIRTUE OF THAT, YOU SHARE IN THE NARRATIVE OF ALL THINGS RURAL. ALL OUR FARMERS AND GROWERS IDENTIFY WITH WHO THEY ARE BY WHAT THEY DO. EVER INCREASINGLY, THAT IDENTITY IS BEING TAKEN FROM THEM. PEOPLE HERE ARE REALLY GOOD PEOPLE. THEY'RE GENUINELY ENGAGED IN WHAT EACH OTHER IS DOING. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S... YOU MIGHT SAY, A WIDER FAMILY NARRATIVE, AND IT'S ALL ABOUT WHAT WE SHARE IN, AND THAT'S THE LOVE OF FARMING. ALWAYS NICE TO HEAR FROM OUR MPs AND THEIR BACKSTORIES. THEIR FAMILIES; BLENDED, SOLO PARENTS; LOVELY TO HEAR FROM MARK CAMERON THERE. STAY WITH US E TE IWI, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. IT WAS THE JEWEL IN THE BUDGET CROWN FOR LABOUR ` $1.2BN TO SUBSIDISE 20 HOURS OF CHILDCARE A WEEK FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS. PRECIOUS MONEY IN THE BACK POCKET FOR PARENTS DURING A COST OF LIVING CRISIS. BUT IT'S QUICKLY TURNING SOUR. EARLY CHILDHOOD TEACHERS SAY THE CONDITIONS ATTACHED ARE IMPOSSIBLE AND COULD LEAD TO HIGHER PRICES, AND CENTRES CLOSING DOWN. SIMON SAT DOWN WITH ONE CENTRE DIRECTOR, KELLY SEABURG, AND ASKED WHY SHE THINKS THIS POLICY IS A LEMON. WE WERE ABSOLUTELY ELATED. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE NEXT DAY, WHEN WE'RE DIVING INTO THE DETAIL, WE REALISED THAT OUR ABILITY TO ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT THIS SUCCESSFULLY FOR THE GOVERNMENT IS BEING RATHER THWARTED BY THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY'VE ATTACHED TO THAT ADDITIONAL FUNDING. 133 BUCKS IN THE BACK POCKET FOR A PARENT ` I MEAN, THAT SEEMS LIKE A GAME-CHANGER. IT ALLOWS THEM TO GO BACK TO WORK OR GO BACK TO TRAINING AS WELL. 100%. WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO PASS ON THAT REDUCTION IN PARENT FEES. WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. SO THE PROBLEM IS, IS WE'VE GOT CONDITIONS THAT MEAN THAT WE CANNOT ASK PARENTS TO HAVE A CO-PAYMENT AND CROSS SUBSIDISE THE MONEY THAT WE ACTUALLY RECEIVE FROM THE GOVERNMENT FOR THOSE 20 HOURS. RIGHT. SO WHEN THEIR CHILD IS THERE UNDER THE 20 HOURS SUBSIDISED, YOU CAN'T ASK FOR A TOP UP. NO, THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. AND THE DIFFICULTY IS, PARTICULARLY FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS, WE ARE FUNDED ON A ONE TO 10 BASIS. NOW FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS, YOU CAN APPRECIATE THAT THAT IS SIMPLY NOT QUALITY, THAT'S NOT SAFE. AND SO WE ALREADY STAFF OUR TODDLERS TO A MUCH HIGHER RATIO THAN THAT. AND OUR PARENT FEES HELP TO CROSS SUBSIDISE AND MAKE THAT` MAKE IT AFFORDABLE. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THIS FUNDING THAT IS BEING OFFERED IS ON A ONE TO 10 BASIS? THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. AND EVEN WITH ONE TO 10, IT DOESN'T EVEN COVER THE COSTS OF DELIVERING THAT. SO WE DO RELY ON PARENTS TO HELP US TO MAKE THAT` DELIVER THAT PROGRAM FOR THEM. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT IF YOU AS A CENTRE MANAGER AGREE TO THIS FUNDING MODEL, THAT WOULD AFFECT A TODDLER'S CARE? OK. SO AS I WAS SAYING, IF WE CAN ONLY UTILISE THE GOVERNMENT'S 20-HOURS SUBSIDY, WE WOULD HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN PER ADULT, PER TEACHER THAT WE HAVE. SO THAT'S NOT QUALITY AND THAT'S NOT CARE AT ALL. THAT IS NOT. AND IN FACT, IT ACTUALLY GOES AGAINST THE EARLY LEARNING ACTION PLAN THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS SET OUT. IS THAT THE KEY POINT, THAT A TODDLER'S CARE WOULD NOT BE OPTIMAL BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T HAVE THE TEACHER RATIO? THAT IS THE KEY POINT? THAT IS THE KEY POINT. THE ONLY OTHER WAY WE COULD POSSIBLY MAKE SOME OF THESE` MAKE IT WORK, WOULD BE TO REDUCE OUR OPENING HOURS. YOU KNOW, WE COULD OPERATE AT SIX HOURS A DAY AND POSSIBLY MAKE IT WORK. BUT IS THAT REALLY MEETING THE NEEDS OF OUR PARENTS? AND SIX HOURS A DAY IS THE MOST THAT YOU CAN GET IN TERMS OF THAT FREE SUBSIDY? WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. PER DAY. BUT IN FACT, THAT'S THE OTHER ONE OF THE OTHER CRAZY CONDITIONS THAT HAVE COME ALONG WITH IT, IS THAT THEY SAID A PARENT COULD COME AND SAY, 'ACTUALLY, I ONLY WANT TWO HOURS TODAY.' OK, WELL, THAT'S LOVELY. BUT THEN IF THEY WANTED THAT BETWEEN 11 AND 1, HOW AM I MEANT TO FILL THAT CHILD'S SPACE BETWEEN, SORT OF, 9 AND 12 IN THE MORNING, AND THEN PERHAPS FROM 3 TO 5 IN THE AFTERNOON. SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO STAFF FOR SMALL PERIODS OF TIME? NO. IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE THAT WAY? BECAUSE YOU CAN IMAGINE, OUR TEACHERS, WE EMPLOY THEM ALL DAY. AND SO THAT'S JUST NOT WORKABLE. THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONFUSION OVER THE FUNDING RATES. I'VE HEARD THE KINDERGARTEN ASSOCIATION SAY IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE $7 TO $9 PER HOUR PER CHILD. BUT THE GOVERNMENT MINISTER, ASSOCIATE MINISTER JO LUXTON, SAYS IF A CENTRE OPTS IN, IT'S GOING TO BE $13 AN HOUR. DO YOU KNOW WHICH IT IS? SO THE RATES THAT I HAVE SEEN I THOUGHT WERE CLOSER TO $15 AN HOUR. $15 AN HOUR? SO COMING IN EARLY NEXT YEAR. SO THE POINT IS, IS THAT EVEN THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, YOU KNOW, THE COST THAT IT ACTUALLY TAKES TO RUN A QUALITY EARLY CHILDHOOD SERVICE IS WAY IN EXCESS OF THAT. THE ASSOCIATE EDUCATION MINISTER SEEMS TO BE PUSHING BACK. JO LUXTON SAYS THAT WHEN SHE OWNED A CHILDCARE CENTRE, SHE MADE THE SUBSIDY WORK FOR 3 TO 4-YEAR-OLDS AND IT SHOULD NOT BE ANY DIFFERENT FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS. NO, THIS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. IF I'M CORRECT, I THINK MINISTER LUXTON ACTUALLY OWNED A CENTRE QUITE SOME TIME AGO. THE WHOLE DYNAMIC HAS CHANGED IN THIS TIME. AND IN FACT, YOU KNOW, THE INCREASE IN COSTS FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD SERVICES HAS GONE THROUGH THE ROOF, AND INCREDIBLY, VERY MUCH COMPLIANCE COSTS WHICH ARE COMING THROUGH FROM GOVERNMENT CHANGES, HAVE MADE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR SERVICES TO REMAIN AFLOAT. AND ALSO TO SAY AGAIN, TO THE POINT ABOUT RATIOS, THE KEY ASPECT ABOUT WHY IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS IS BECAUSE WE NEED TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL TEACHERS FOR QUALITY CARE AND EDUCATION OF TODDLERS. IF A CENTRE DOESN'T LIKE IT, AND DOESN'T LIKE THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS THAT COME WITH THIS FUNDING, WHY DON'T THEY JUST SAY, 'NO THANKS'? BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, THAT WILL DRIVE PARENT FEES THROUGH THE ROOF. BUT THAT IS SO` WE'RE REALLY CAUGHT WITH OUR HANDS BEHIND OUR BACKS. WHY WOULD IT DRIVE PARENT FEES THROUGH THE ROOF? SO IF YOU DON'T GET THE SUBSIDY, AND THIS IS THE OTHER THING ABOUT ANOTHER CONDITION, WHICH IS THAT YOU CAN'T JUST SAY, 'LOOK, I'LL CONTINUE TO OPERATE MY 3 TO 5-YEAR-OLDS UNDER THE SUBSIDY, 'BUT ACTUALLY, THANKS BUT NO THANKS FOR THE 2-YEAR-OLDS. 'THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK FOR US.' IT'S A FULL OPT-IN OR FULL OPT-OUT. IT DOES SEEM COUNTERINTUITIVE, THOUGH. I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENT IS THROWING MONEY AT THIS SECTOR, AND YET THE SECTOR SAYS IT'S GOING TO FORCE THE CLOSURE OF CENTRES. HOW DO THE TWO MARRY UP? SURE. SO IF WE CAN ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT THIS POLICY UNDER THE CURRENT CONDITIONS, IT'S AN ABSOLUTE WIN FOR EVERYBODY INVOLVED. WE CAN DO THAT FROM TOMORROW. SO WE CAN ALREADY UTILISE THE SUBSIDY THAT'S COMING THROUGH FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS, AND WE CAN THEN ALSO ASK FOR CO-PAYMENTS FROM PARENTS TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL TEACHING. SO WHY ARE THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS CHANGED FROM 3 TO 4 TO 5-YEAR-OLDS TO 2-YEAR-OLDS? LOOK, THAT'S` WE ARE VERY PERPLEXED ABOUT THAT AS WELL. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR IT AT ALL. AND WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THAT'S REQUIRED. IT'S JUST UNNECESSARY. AND IN FACT, IT'S COUNTERINTUITIVE, AS I SAID, TO THEIR OWN EARLY LEARNING ACTION PLAN, IT'S ALSO GOING TO BE` WE CAN'T THEN DELIVER AND REDUCE THE FEES FOR THE PARENTS, AND WE WANT TO DO THAT. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE GOVERNMENT'S CONSULTATION ON THIS POLICY? THERE JUST HASN'T BEEN ANY. NONE? NONE AT ALL. NONE AT ALL. AND, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE` WE SPEAK TO THEM REGULARLY. THEY HAVE OUR EMAIL ADDRESSES. THEY HAVE OUR PHONE NUMBERS. WE WORK CLOSELY WITH THEM. SO I CAN'T UNDERSTAND AT ALL WHY THEY DIDN'T JUST COME AND ACTUALLY TALK TO US BEFOREHAND AND SAY, 'WHAT ABOUT THIS AS AN IDEA, WOULD THIS WORK?' YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE FEES LIKE $15 SUBSIDY IS NOT ENOUGH. SO ARE YOU ASKING FOR MORE MONEY, OR ARE YOU JUST ASKING FOR CONSULTATION? WHAT DO YOU REALLY WANT? WE DON'T NEED MORE MONEY. WE DON'T NEED MORE MONEY. THIS IS A HUGE INVESTMENT IN OUR SECTOR, AND WE ARE ABSOLUTELY THRILLED. BUT ALLOW US TO ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT IT UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS THAT WE CURRENTLY OPERATE. IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT. SO IF I'M A PARENT, SHOULD I FEEL CONFIDENT UNDER THIS SYSTEM ABOUT THE CARE THAT MY 2-YEAR-OLD WOULD GET IN A CHILDCARE CENTRE? UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM OR UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM? UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM. OH, LOOK, IT'S VERY CONCERNING. IT REALLY IS CONCERNING. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I CAN TELL YOU THAT OUR SERVICES WILL SIMPLY NOT PUT CHILDREN'S SAFETY AT RISK. THAT IS JUST` AND NOBODY, NOT ONLY IN NEW SHOOTS, BUT FOR ACROSS THE SERVICES, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO FUNDAMENTALLY CARE ABOUT THE QUALITY CARE AND EDUCATION OF CHILDREN. WE ARE NOT GOING TO PUT CHILDREN'S NEEDS AT RISK. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO STAY AFLOAT THAT WILL BE EITHER THROUGH INCREASING PARENT FEES, AND I GUESS THAT'S A CONVERSATION WITH PARENTS ` WHAT DO WE WANT TO DO TO MAKE SURE YOUR CHILD IS SAFE AND WELL CARED FOR ` OR DO WE REDUCE OUR OPENING HOURS? BUT WE WOULD HAVE TO FIND WAYS THAT EFFECTIVELY STILL DISADVANTAGE OUR FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES. WILL CENTRES GO OUT OF BUSINESS BECAUSE OF THIS POLICY? I THINK THERE'S A HIGH CHANCE OF IT. IN FACT, IF I CAN TALK TO THAT, I'VE JUST HAD THE DATA THROUGH THIS MORNING ` 719 CENTRES HAVE CLOSED SINCE JUNE 2022. JUNE 2022. AND TO GIVE YOU SOME CONTEXT OF THAT` THAT'S NOT UNDER THIS NEW POLICY, THOUGH. NO, IT'S NOT. BUT THAT SHOWS YOU THAT SERVICES ARE ALREADY ON THE BRINK, AND THIS IS JUST DRIVING US FURTHER INTO THAT SPACE. THIS IS NOT GOOD. THIS IS UNREQUIRED, AND IN FACT IT'S JUST COUNTERINTUITIVE TO WHAT THIS POLICY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DELIVER. YOU'RE A CENTRE OWNER, RUNNER, MANAGER, BUT FROM A PARENT'S POINT OF VIEW, WOULD YOU PUT YOUR OWN 2-YEAR-OLD INTO CARE UNDER THIS SCHEME? THAT'S A REALLY HARD QUESTION. THAT'S A REALLY HARD QUESTION. I KNOW THAT IN MY SERVICE, THAT I WOULD DO EVERYTHING THAT I CAN TO MAKE SURE WE DELIVER QUALITY, OR I WOULD CLOSE. ACTUALLY, TO BE HONEST, OR I'D CLOSE. IF I CAN'T DELIVER QUALITY FOR THOSE CHILDREN, THEN WHAT ARE WE HERE FOR? I MEAN, LET'S BE HONEST. WE ARE HERE TO LOOK AFTER CHILDREN. WE ARE HERE TO SERVE OUR FAMILIES AND OUR COMMUNITIES. IF WE CAN'T DO THAT PROPERLY, THEN WHAT IS THIS ABOUT? I MEAN, WE'RE HERE TO LOOK AFTER OUR MOST VULNERABLE NEW ZEALANDERS, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN DO THAT. AND IF THAT'S WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND WORKING TOGETHER TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN, WONDERFUL. BUT IF WE CAN'T DELIVER UNDER THESE NEW CONDITIONS, THEN WHAT'S THE POINT? KELLY SEABURG, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. THANKS, SIMON. AND WE PUT THOSE CONCERNS TO ASSOCIATE MINISTER JO LUXTON. SHE GAVE US THIS STATEMENT, WHICH SAYS THE GOVERNMENT WANTED THE 20 HOURS TO BE GENUINELY FREE. SHE SAID IT'S AN OPT-IN SUBSIDY WHICH CENTRES DO NOT HAVE TO OFFER, AND BECAUSE IT DOESN'T COME IN UNTIL MARCH NEXT YEAR, THERE IS TIME TO WORK WITH THE SECTOR. SHE SAID BUDGET COMMITMENTS ARE NOT CONSULTED ON, WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE. OK ` TIME NOW TO GO BACK TO THE LABOUR PARTY ELECTION YEAR CONGRESS AT TE PAPA IN WELLINGTON. SIMON, IT'S BEEN A ROUGH WEEK FOR LABOUR ` THAT POLL ON THURSDAY NIGHT WOULD HAVE BEEN DISAPPOINTING FOR THEM, SO IT'S CRUCIAL I SUPPOSE, THAT THE PARTY MACHINE GETS GEARED UP FOR THE ELECTION ` CAN YOU FEEL THAT DOWN THERE? ABSOLUTELY. YOU ARE SO RIGHT, BIT OF A POLLING BUMP FOR LABOUR THERE. YES, YOU CAN FEEL THAT IN THE ROOM. IT'S PACKED, EVERYONE'S LOVELY, EVERYBODY'S RARKED UP. YOU DIPPED INTO KELVIN'S SPEECH EARLIER, AND HE KICKED UP ALL THE JACINDA ARDERN TALKING POINTS ABOUT POVERTY, KINDNESS, HOUSING, AND COMPASSION, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, AND HE GOT A BIT OF HOOPLA FOR EACH OF THOSE. NO REAL STAGE-DIVING AT THIS STAGE, BUT THEY ARE REALLY RARKED UP. WE'VE BEEN KICKED OUT, WE WERE IN THE CONFERENCE BEFORE, AND WE'VE BEEN KICKED OUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CLOSED-DOOR SESSION WITH MEGAN WOODS, THE MINISTER, WHO'S ALSO THE CAMPAIGN CHAIR. SHE IS STRATEGISING TO THE PARTY FAITHFUL ABOUT THE RUBBER ON THE ROAD TO ELECTION. AFTER THAT, INTERESTINGLY, WILLIE JACKSON IS HOLDING A SESSION ON MAORI SEATS. OF COURSE, WE SAW MEKA WHAITIRI DUMP LABOUR AT THE LAST MINUTE, DIDN'T EVEN GIVE CHIPPY A PHONE CALL. THEY'RE GOING TO BE STRATEGISING ABOUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE MAORI SEATS ` SO CRUCIAL TO THEM. THERE'S NO MENTION OF ANYBODY TALKING ABOUT THE POLL THAT YOU MENTIONED, PUBLICLY, BUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, YOU CAN BE SURE THAT THEY WILL BE USING IT AS A MOTIVATOR, TO SHOW THAT IT'S TIGHT. I MEAN SURE, CHRIS HIPKINS IS SLIGHTLY AHEAD OF CHRISTOPHER LUXON, IN THE PERSONAL POPULARITY OF THE PM, BUT IT'S THE PARTY VOTE THAT COUNTS, AND TE PATI MAORI BEING UP THERE, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO WOO THEM, AND TE PATI MAORI COULD BE THE KINGIMAKER, OR THE CHRISMAKER. SO THEY'LL BE USING THAT POLL AS A MOTIVATOR FOR THE PARTY FAITHFUL. ABSOLUTELY. IT'S A GOOD ONE TO GET THEM MOTIVATED. AND WHAT CAN WE EXPECT FROM THE PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH TOMORROW? THAT'S GOING TO BE REALLY INTERESTING. SUCH A CONTRAST TO THE POPULARITY AND ADORATION OF PREVIOUS YEARS. AS WE KNOW, HE LIKES SAUSAGE ROLLS, REPEATEDLY. IT'S BECOME A BIT OF A WELL-WORN CLICHE, I THINK. IT WILL BE INTERESTING. HE HAS TO OUTLINE WHAT HE BRINGS TO THE ROLE; IS HE MORE THAN JUST A BREAD-AND-BUTTER POLITICIAN? HE HAS TO SHOW HIS POSITIVE VISION FOR THE PARTY, LEADING TOWARDS THE ELECTION. HE'S SHOWN US WHAT HE CAN CUT, BUT HE'S NOW GOT TO SHOW US WHAT HIS POSITIVE VISION IS FOR THE PARTY LEADING UP TO OCTOBER. WE ARE EXPECTING A SMALL POLICY ANNOUNCEMENT, POSSIBLY AROUND CHRIS HIPKINS' FAVOURITE PORTFOLIO, WHICH IS EDUCATION, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE A BACK TO BASICS SPEECH. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE THE COMPARISON WITH HOW THE LABOUR PARTY FAITHFUL REACTS TO CHRIS HIPKINS AS OPPOSED TO THE JACINDA ARDERN DECADE. DECADE? SORRY, ERA, SHOULD I SAY. YEAH. ABSOLUTELY, SIMON, AND I HOPE FOR ALL OUR SAKES THAT THEY DITCH THE SAUSAGE ROLLS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. THERE'S NOT A SAUSAGE ROLL IN SIGHT. GOOD, I'M SO HAPPY TO HEAR IT. THANK YOU, SIMON. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023