TENA TATAU KATOA, I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU ` WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME THIS WEEK ` MAYOR TORY WHANAU HITS BACK AGAINST HER CRITICS IN WELLINGTON CITY. A TWO-TIME SURROGATE MOTHER IN AUCKLAND REFLECTS ON PROPOSED SURROGACY LAWS. AND ONE REGULATOR TO RULE THEM ALL ` NEW MOVES TO POLICE MEDIA AND SOCIAL MEDIA. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND JESSIE PURU. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 NEW WELLINGTON MAYOR TORY WHANAU HAS BEEN RUFFLING FEATHERS WITH HER APPROACH TO THE MAYORALTY. SHE'S COME IN FOR CRITICISM THIS WEEK FOR NOT TURNING UP TO IMPORTANT MAYORAL EVENTS. AND ON TUESDAY SAYS SHE WAS HECKLED AND BOOED AT A HEATED PUBLIC MEETING WITH RESIDENTS. SO WE SAT DOWN WITH HER IN WELLINGTON ON FRIDAY TO HEAR HER PERSPECTIVE ON THE CONTROVERSY AND THE CRITICISM OF HER MAYORALTY. WELL, IT'S NICE TO BE SITTING DOWN WITH YOU. I'M VERY HAPPY THAT YOU TURNED UP. OH, WELL, I'LL ALWAYS TURN UP FOR YOU. BUT YOU'RE GETTING SOME FLACK AT THE MOMENT, AREN'T YOU? I AM, I AM. ABOUT YOUR ATTENDANCE. I KNOW, AND IT'S QUITE FUNNY, I'M FINDING IT AMUSING HOW IT'S BECOME A BIT OF A THING, WHEN ACTUALLY I GAVE AN APOLOGY TO A COUPLE OF BIG MEETINGS FOR QUITE SERIOUS REASONS, AND NOW IT'S TURNED INTO 'ABSENT MAYOR' WHEN THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE. AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? I JUST THINK IT FORMS A... KIND OF LIKE A WIDER OPPOSITION TO ME, I SUPPOSE. I MISSED` I WAS ABSENT FROM A COUPLE OF MEETINGS. NOW I 'DON'T ATTEND THINGS' OR I 'DON'T TURN UP', WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE. DOES IT FEEL A BIT SEXIST TO YOU? IT DOES. A BIT GENDERED? YEAH, IT'S GENDERED. AND I KNOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH HEARING THAT, BUT YOU KNOW... LET'S BE REAL HERE ` I'M A YOUNG WAHINE MAORI. I'M PROGRESSIVE AND UNAPOLOGETICALLY SO. AND I THINK PEOPLE` WHAT I REPRESENT, PEOPLE ARE QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT THAT. AND SO THERE'S SOME ATTEMPTS AT, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO ATTACK MY CHARACTER, SO TO SPEAK, AND IT'S A SHAME, BUT IT'S FROM A MINORITY AND I'M STILL VERY EXCITED ABOUT THE OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT THAT I'VE RECEIVED FROM THE COMMUNITY. SOME OF IT DOES FEEL UNDERMINING, LIKE YOU'RE A PARTY LOVER? YEAH, AND I AM. YOU KNOW, LET'S NOT GET IT TWISTED. YOU KNOW, I'M 40, I'M SINGLE, I LOVE OUR HOSPITALITY SCENE. AND EVERY COUPLE OF WEEKS, I LIKE TO HEAD OUT WITH MY MATES AND HIT A COUPLE OF BARS. THERE'S CERTAINLY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. AND I'VE HEARD ONE COMMENT GO, 'DO YOUR JOB!' AND IT'S LIKE, OH, OK, SO SATURDAY NIGHT, SHOULD I BE IN THE OFFICE? WELL, NO, THAT'S JUST SILLY. SO I'M ENTITLED TO A PRIVATE LIFE. I'M ENTITLED TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF FUN WITH MY MATES. AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT. AND YOU HAD A BIT OF A ROUGH MEETING THIS WEEK. I DID, I DID. OVER AT ORIENTAL PARADE? YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. AND YOU KNOW, I WILL SAY THE ORGANISERS WERE REALLY LOVELY AND WE'D AGREED FOR ME TO COME AND SHARE MY VISION FOR THE CITY. HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS, A BIT OF A Q&A SESSION AS WELL. AND THAT ACTUALLY WAS GOING REALLY WELL. THEN THE MEETING TOOK A TURN. THERE WERE JUST A FEW GENTLEMEN WHO GOT UP AND WAS JUST KIND OF YELLING ME DOWN, GIVING ME A BIT OF A ROASTING, SO TO SPEAK, AND WOULDN'T LET ME ANSWER. AND THAT'S WHEN THINGS GOT TENSE. THAT'S WHEN THE HOLLERING STARTED, AND THAT'S WHEN I JUST KIND OF HAD TO GO, 'I'VE HAD ENOUGH, 'BECAUSE THIS IS JUST NOT HOW YOU TREAT YOUR GUESTS,' AND THEN I WALKED OUT. THE SILVER LINING OF ALL THIS, THOUGH, IS THAT... HOW DID THAT FEEL FOR YOU? OH, IT WAS REALLY DISAPPOINTING. I MEAN, I THINK... I THINK ALL WOMEN CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE, KIND OF BEING YELLED DOWN BY A GROUP OF MEN WITH A PRIVILEGED BACKGROUND, AND SO IT WAS REALLY UNPLEASANT. BUT I WAS ACTUALLY JUST MORE DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE IT WAS TAKING UP AIR, IT WAS TAKING SPACE FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE TO ACTUALLY GENUINELY HEAR FROM ME, YOU KNOW. SO THEY DID A DISSERVICE TO ME AND THEY DID A DISSERVICE TO THE RESIDENTS THERE. HOWEVER, I'M MEETING THE ASSOCIATION FOR COFFEE NEXT WEEK TO JUST SORT OF CLEAR THE AIR AND GO, 'LOOK, I WANT TO COME BACK,' BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE I WANT TO ENGAGE WITH. DO YOU THINK A BIT OF IT IS GENERATIONAL? OH, ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, LET'S BE REAL. I AM THE OPPOSITE OF THAT GROUP, YOU KNOW, OF AN OLDER GENERATION. I'M NOT JACINDA ARDERN, YOU KNOW, I'M PROBABLY MUCH MORE EDGY, AND I SAY WHAT I THINK. AND, YOU KNOW, I'VE PROBABLY ACCIDENTALLY SWORN AT A COUPLE OF EVENTS. I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE WHO I AM. PEOPLE WILL FIND THAT CONFRONTING. BUT AGAIN, I'M HERE TO REPRESENT THE NEXT GENERATION OF LEADERS, THE NEXT GENERATION THAT I'M TRYING TO SET UP THE CITY FOR AND OUR MOST VULNERABLE, SO I CAN'T CHANGE WHO I AM. I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY VALUES AND I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE POLICIES THAT I CAMPAIGNED ON. ONE THING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO NOW, THOUGH, IS YOU'RE GOING TO RELEASE YOUR DIARY. I AM. AND IN FACT, I DID BRING MY LAPTOP. IF YOU WANTED A SNEAK PEEK OF WHAT A WEEK LOOKS LIKE FOR THE MAYOR. WELL, YEAH, LET'S TAKE A LOOK. LET'S TAKE A LOOK. BECAUSE I'M JUST LIKE` I LOOKED AT IT AND I WAS LIKE, NAH, I'M BUSY! BUT... ALL RIGHT, HERE WE GO. JUST GOT TO LOG IN. LET'S BE CLEAR, YOU DID MISS TWO IMPORTANT MEETINGS. I DID, I DID. YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE. I GAVE AN APOLOGY ON THE MORNING OF. THAT'S NOT IDEAL. I WOULDN'T DO THAT AGAIN. BUT OTHERWISE, WHAT I'M HEARING IS THAT YOU'RE CHANGING THINGS UP A LITTLE BIT. YEAH, YEAH. YOU'RE DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY. I'M TRYING TO HAVE... AND LOOK, I MEAN, IT'S VERY COLOURFUL. I MEAN, IT LOOKS BEAUTIFUL. I'M TRYING TO HAVE A DIVERSE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A MIXTURE OF OUTREACH, COUNCIL MEETINGS, MEDIA. I'M VERY ACCESSIBLE, YOU KNOW, FOR THE MEDIA. I HEAR YOU LIKE THE TV CAMERAS. I DO LIKE THE TV CAMERAS, SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN OTHER MAYORS. BUT, YOU KNOW, I'VE ALSO GOT... AND WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU? BECAUSE FOR ME, IT'S JUST A WAY TO GET THE VISION OF THE CITY OUT TO THE PUBLIC. IT MEANS THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC KNOW WHAT I'M UP TO. THERE'VE BEEN PREVIOUS MAYORS HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING... WELL, PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHO THE MAYOR WAS. THERE'S ONE IN AUCKLAND WHO WON'T LET TV CAMERAS IN AT THE MOMENT! AND THAT'S DISRUPTING SOME REALLY GOOD WORK OF COUNCILLORS WHO ARE TRYING TO GET A REALLY NICE BALANCED BUDGET. AND IT'S TURNING INTO A BIT OF A CIRCUS WHEN ACTUALLY IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT, A LOT SMOOTHER. SO I THINK THAT UPSET IS THERE'S SOME UNDERMINING BEHAVIOUR HERE, BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE GENUINELY UPSET IF I HAVE TO DECLINE A MEETING TO ATTEND SOMETHING ELSE AND IT'S JUST A BIT OF... AGAIN, BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS UP. SO LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE BIG ISSUES. YOU KNOW, YOU CAMPAIGNED ON A LOT OF SORT OF BIG PROMISES ON THIS VISION OF TRANSFORMATION. YEP. WHAT DO YOU KNOW NOW THAT YOU'RE IN THE OFFICE? I KNOW NOW THAT IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE. (LAUGHS) SO, YES, I MADE SOME VERY GRAND PLANS DURING MY CAMPAIGN, AND I'VE COME IN, I'VE LOOKED AT THE BOOKS AND GONE, OH, OK. CAN'T DO THAT IN THREE YEARS. SO IT'S ESSENTIALLY TURNED INTO A 10-YEAR PLAN, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE LONG-TERM PLAN IS. AND I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT PROCESS. SO WE'VE GOT THE ANNUAL PLAN OUT OF THE WAY, WE HAVE OUR RATES INCREASES COMING, AND I AM EXCITED THAT WE'RE GOING TO MAINTAIN OUR SERVICES, STILL INVEST IN THINGS LIKE PIPES ` WE'VE ACTUALLY INCREASED FUNDING FOR WELLINGTON WATER, WE'VE GOT OUR CYCLEWAY NETWORK AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, CLIMATE RESILIENCE WORK, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT. WITH THE LONG-TERM PLAN, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK BIG FOR THE SAKE OF OUR CITY, SO IT'S CONTINUING THAT WORK AROUND LET'S GET WELLY MOVING AND EFFICIENT PUBLIC TRANSPORT. I AM A HUGE SUPPORTER OF IT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S RUFFLED SOME FEATHERS. YEAH, WELL, WHAT'S RUFFLED SOME FEATHERS IS THAT WELLINGTON'S STILL NOT MOVING. WELL, I'M EXCITED TO SAY THAT CONSTRUCTION FOR THE GOLDEN MILE WILL START IN OCTOBER, AND I THINK THAT WILL START... AND THAT'S THE PEDESTRIANISATION, FOR THE PEOPLE AREN'T FAMILIAR. PEDESTRIANISATION, EXACTLY. SO IT'S ENSURING THAT WE CAN PRIORITISE THINGS LIKE BUS LANES, CYCLEWAYS AND PEDESTRIANISATION ALONG LAMBTON QUAY RIGHT UP TO COURTENAY PLACE. AND THAT MEANS WE'LL ALSO GET TO... THAT, TO ME, LEADS TO CITY REVITALISATION. WE CAN HAVE OUTDOOR DINING, WE CAN HAVE LANEWAYS AND ALL THAT BEAUTIFUL STUFF, AND THEN FROM THERE WE'LL KICK INTO THINGS LIKE MASS RAPID TRANSIT, AND THAT IS THE PROJECT THAT WILL ENABLE HIGHER DENSITY HOUSING AND A FURTHER INVESTMENT IN OUR CITY. AND I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT. IT'S A LONG PROJECT. IT'S GONNA LEAD TO A SEVERAL YEARS OF DISRUPTION, BUT I THINK AS LONG AS THE COUNCIL IS REALLY CLEAR WITH THE PLAN, WHAT IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO, WHEN IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, OUR CITY WILL ADJUST. SO THE PEDESTRIANISATION OF THE GOLDEN MILE, THERE ARE GOING TO BE SHOVELS IN THE GROUND, OCTOBER. YES. WHAT ABOUT LIGHT RAIL? SO THE BUSINESS CASE FOR THAT IS DUE IN THE COMING MONTHS AND... IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S HANGING BY A THREAD. I MEAN, I'M NOT ACROSS THE BUSINESS CASE YET, AND I WON'T BE UNTIL IT COMES TO THE GOVERNANCE REFERENCE GROUP. I THINK THERE'S ACTUALLY HUGE SUPPORT FOR IT, BUT THERE'S A VOCAL MINORITY WHO ARE JUST KIND OF REALLY TRYING TO PUSH AGAINST IT, AS IS THEIR RIGHT, YOU KNOW. BUT THERE'S ALSO SIX COUNCILLORS ON IN YOUR COUNCIL SAYING THAT THEY'RE NOT BEHIND 'LET'S GET WELLY MOVING' ANY MORE. NO, AND I DON'T EXPECT THEM TO BE BECAUSE ACTUALLY THEY CAMPAIGNED AGAINST IT LAST YEAR. SO I FULLY RESPECT THEIR VIEW. WE HAVE 10 COUNCILLORS WHO SUPPORT IT AND THAT'S A VERY CLEAR MAJORITY. I'M A FAN OF LIGHT RAIL. YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WILL TRULY BRING A CHANGE TO OUR CITY AGAIN, THAT'S WHERE THE HOUSING COMES IN, THAT'S WHERE INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT COMES IN. IT PROVIDES CERTAINTY FOR DEVELOPERS SO THAT THEY KNOW WHERE THEY SHOULD BE INVESTING THEIR HOUSING. HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT YOU CAN GET IT THERE? WHAT MAKES IT QUITE TRICKY IS THAT IT'S A PARTNERSHIP. SO WITH CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, WAKA KOTAHI AND THE WELLINGTON REGIONAL COUNCIL. SO IT IS QUITE A GNARLY PROJECT THAT INVOLVES MANY PARTNERS THAT HAVE TO COME TOGETHER ON THIS. WE ARE CURRENTLY TOGETHER SEEING THE BUSINESS CASE. I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THAT'S GOING TO GO. I CERTAINLY HOPE IT RULES IN FAVOUR OF LIGHT RAIL, BUT WE'LL JUST HAVE TO COME TOGETHER AGAIN AND DECIDE ONCE WE'VE ACTUALLY LOOKED AT THE FACTS. HAS IT SURPRISED YOU, I SUPPOSE COMING INTO THIS OFFICE, JUST THREE YEARS IS NOT GOING TO DO IT, IS IT? NO, IT ABSOLUTELY ISN'T. SIX YEARS? NO. YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN BE GETTING CLOSE. OH, I KNOW. ARE YOU HERE FOR THE LONG HAUL? OH, ABSOLUTELY. SO I'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR WITH OTHERS THAT I WANT TO BE AT LEAST A THREE-TERM MAYOR BECAUSE A LOT OF THE STUFF THAT I WANT WILL TAKE 10 YEARS TO EVEN START. YOU KNOW, LIGHT RAIL IS GOING TO TAKE AWAY LONGER THAN THAT TO BE DELIVERED, AND THAT'S OK, BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE WORK HAPPENS. I WANT TO PROVIDE CONSISTENT LEADERSHIP FOR THE CITY TO TAKE US THROUGH QUITE A DIFFICULT BUT EXCITING PERIOD. I HEAR YOU'VE BEEN GETTING SOME MENTORING. I GET MENTORING FROM VARIOUS PEOPLE. (LAUGHS) IS ONE OF THEM HELEN CLARK? (LAUGHS) NO. NO, NO. I HAD THE PLEASURE OF MEETING HELEN CLARK IN A MEETING ABOUT OPEN GOVERNMENT SOME WEEKS AGO, AND WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING, SHE WAS THERE TO INTRODUCE ME TO THE LEAD OF OPEN GOVERNMENT, BUT WE JUST COMPLETELY TURNED IT INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP, AND WE WERE TOTALLY VIBING OFF EACH OTHER. IT WAS A VERY EXCITING MEETING AND I TURNED BACK TO THE OTHER GUY AND WAS LIKE, 'SORRY!' AND HE GOES, 'NO, I'M JUST WITNESSING THIS 'AMAZINGNESS OF SEEING TWO WAHINE TOA COME TOGETHER.' IT WAS SO EXCITING. AND WE SWAPPED NUMBERS, YOU KNOW, AFTERWARDS AND, YOU KNOW, WE PROMISED TO KEEP IN TOUCH. SO, YEAH. SO LESS FORMAL THEN MENTORING. BUT LESS FORMAL MENTORING, BUT I'M VERY HONOURED TO HAVE HER CELL, YOU KNOW? HER SUPPORT. YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. IT'S IMPORTANT IN THIS BUSINESS, ISN'T IT? YES. I'VE HAD JUST SO MANY... I SEEM TO HAVE BEEN PULLED INTO THIS REALLY WONDERFUL NETWORK OF WOMEN WHO JUST WANT TO SUPPORT ME AND SEE ME SUCCEED. AND SO WHEN I DO HAVE DIFFICULT MOMENTS AT THINGS LIKE THAT MEETING ON TUESDAY, I JUST REMEMBER THAT THERE'S THIS NETWORK HERE, THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE. AND ACTUALLY I STOOD FOR A PARTICULAR GENERATION AND A COMMUNITY OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE. I MUST NEVER FORGET THEM. AND THE EXTENDED VERSION OF THAT INTERVIEW WITH MORE DETAIL ON OTHER WELLINGTON ISSUES WILL BE UP ON OUR SOCIAL MEDIA THIS AFTERNOON. BUT RIGHT NOW, I AM JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` STUFF SENIOR REPORTER IN WELLINGTON ANDREA VANCE, AND MEREPEKA RAUKAWA-TAIT WHO IS CHAIR OF THE WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONING AGENCY ` AND ALSO INVOLVED WITH COUNCIL FOR 11 YEARS ` TENA KORUA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. TENA KOE, MORENA. SO A LOT TO UNPACK IN THAT INTERVIEW. TORY WHANAU UNAPOLOGETIC AND DEFIANT, ACTUALLY, ANDREA, IN THE FACE OF CRITICISM ABOUT HER STYLE. YEAH, I THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT INTERVIEW. IT WAS VERY REVEALING FOR THE PEOPLE OF WELLINGTON, FOR SURE. I MEAN, FAIR ENOUGH. SHE IS WHO SHE IS, THAT'S WHY SHE WAS ELECTED. PEOPLE LOVED HER ATTITUDE, THEY THOUGHT SHE WAS A REAL BREATH OF FRESH AIR. TO BE FAIR TO HER, SHE HAD NO EXPERIENCE OF... GOVERNING OR OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT PARTICULARLY. SHE'S HAD EIGHT MONTHS NOW TO DO THE JOB, AND... THINGS ARE STARTING TO FRAY AROUND THE EDGES A LITTLE BIT. SHE HAD A LOT OF SUPPORT; SHE UNITED A VERY DIVIDED AND FRAGMENTED COUNCIL. SHE ACHIEVED THAT AND NOW PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS TO SEE WHAT'S NEXT. WELLINGTON HAS SOME ENORMOUS PROBLEMS, AND I THINK PEOPLE OF WELLINGTON` SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS ARE VERY POLARISING, AND PEOPLE ARE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT WHAT'S TO COME, IS SHE ALLUDED TO A VERY PAINFUL NEXT FEW YEARS. MEREPEKA, WHAT WERE YOUR THOUGHTS? WELL, I SUPPOSE WHEN I LISTENED TO THE INTERVIEW, I THOUGHT THERE'S A LOT TO BE SAID FOR A MAYOR DOING AT LEAST ONE TERM AS A COUNCILLOR ` BE THEY FROM GORE, AUCKLAND OR WELLINGTON. BECAUSE LOCAL BODY POLITICS AND COUNCIL, IT'S SERIOUS BUSINESS. PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO SHARE A VISION, THAT THEY CAN ALIGN WITH, CAN ALIGN WITH THEIR ASPIRATIONS, THEY KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE A PRUDENT... OVERSEER OF THE FINANCIAL OPERATIONS OF THE COUNCIL, AND SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE THE FOCUS. THE BUSINESS OF COUNCIL SHOULD BE THE FOCUS, AND THAT'S WHAT I GOT FROM THAT. TORY HAS EVERYTHING GOING FOR HER; SHE'S A WOMAN, SHE'S MAORI, SHE'S EDUCATED AND SHE'S YOUNG. SHE IS YOUNG. BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE GOT TO UNDERSTAND RELATIONSHIPS AROUND THE COUNCIL TABLE ARE ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT, AND IT DOES SOMETIMES TELL WHEN YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ON COUNCIL BEFORE. THIS IS THE YEAR WHERE YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE YOUR MARK ` YOUR FIRST YEAR. YEAH, AND SO WHAT I'M SEEING, I SUPPOSE WE'RE SEEING HER STYLE. WHAT WE NEED TO SEE NOW IS THE SUBSTANCE ANDREA? (STAMMERS) WELL, MAYBE A FEW GRUMPY OLD MEN ARE SAYING SHE SHOULDN'T GO OUT AND HAVE A RED WINE, BUT I THINK MORE REALISTICALLY, PEOPLE ARE SAYING, GO OUT, DO THAT. I'M OF A SIMILAR AGE TO TORY AND I ALSO LIKE A NIGHT OUT AND A RED WINE BUT I STILL TURN UP AND DO MY JOB. AND WHEN YOU'RE LETTING PEOPLE DOWN, THAT'S WHEN PEOPLE START TO GET IRRITATED, ESPECIALLY IN A CITY WHERE PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS AND THEY WANT REASSURANCE ABOUT THE FUTURE AND WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. SO I DO THINK THAT SOME OF THAT WAS A LITTLE DISINGENUOUS. THAT ISN'T THE CRITICISM, THAT SHE'S A PARTY MAYOR. I THINK ALSO... IT'S ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE, THE ABUSE SHE GETS ON SOCIAL MEDIA ` I THINK SHE'S STOPPED HER TWITTER ACCOUNT. AND PEOPLE SHUTTING HER DOWN AT A MEETING ALSO IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND THAT BEHAVIOUR SHOULDN'T GO ON. AT THE SAME TIME, IT ALWAYS ASTONISHES ME, THE LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY THAT POLITICIANS TAKE FOR THE ANGER OF THE PUBLIC ` PEOPLE ARE ANGRY WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU MAKE PROMISES THAT YOU CANNOT KEEP. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE ANGRY, THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE SHOUTING. THEY SHOULDN'T SHOUT AT YOU, BUT YOU HAVE TO` SHE SAID, 'NO ONE WAS LETTING ME SPEAK,' BUT ACTUALLY, AS A MAYOR, SHE WAS THERE TO LISTEN, YOU KNOW? SHE SHOULD BE HEARING WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING, SHE SHOULD BE LISTENING TO THE RATEPAYERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE CITY, NOT TALKING AT THEM. WELL, I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THAT. WHEN RATEPAYERS' ASSOCIATION AND OTHER COMMUNITY GROUPS INVITE YOU, THEY USUALLY ARE INVITING YOU SO YOU CAN EXPLAIN WHAT IT IS THAT THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT. BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU GO TO ANY RATEPAYERS' MEETING TODAY IT IS INVARIABLY OLDER PEOPLE, INVARIABLY PAKEHA, AND IT'S AS IF THEY LEAVE HOME, LEAVE THEIR MANNERS ARE HOME, AND THEY COME TO THESE MEETINGS AND THEY ARE QUITE VERBALLY ABUSIVE. THEY'RE QUITE VERBALLY ABUSIVE. AND NO CIVIC LEADER SHOULD HAVE TO TAKE THAT SORT OF CONDUCT. IT'S NOT CONDUCIVE TO PEOPLE GETTING THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED, AND HAVING THAT GOOD, ROBUST DEBATE, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT. AND OLDER PEOPLE WHO THAT TURN UP TO THESE COMMUNITY MEETINGS, THEY HAVE A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT. 'I'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, I KNOW WHAT A MAYOR LOOKS LIKE, 'I KNOW HOW A MAYOR SHOULD CONDUCT THEMSELVES.' WELL, THAT'S ALL GONE. WE'VE GOT YOUNG MAYORS NOW WHO KNOW THEIR COMMUNITY ` NOT JUST THE UPTOWN FOLKS. THEY KNOW WHO'S LIVING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF TOWN WHO IS UNDERGOING SOME SERIOUS ISSUES, IN TERMS OF STRUGGLING WITH DAY-TO-DAY LIFE. AND SO THAT'S WHAT YOUNGER MAYORS BRING, THAT KNOWLEDGE. WHAT DOES SHE NEED TO DO NOW? SHE'S HAD EIGHT MONTHS IN THE OFFICE AND TWO YEARS LEFT IN THIS TERM. WELLINGTON IS FACING HUGE ISSUES. WHAT DOES SHE NEED TO DO RIGHT NOW TO GET WELLINGTON BACK ON TRACK? I THINK THAT THERE'S A SERIOUS SIDE TO HER, AND I THINK I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. I MEAN, PEOPLE WANT TO SEE THAT. BUT WELLINGTON, I SUSPECT, IS UNDERGOING SOME SIGNIFICANT ISSUES. IF SHE CAMPAIGNED ON THE PIPES, IF SHE CAMPAIGNED ON THE ENVIRONMENT, ALL OF THOSE SORT OF THINGS... PEOPLE PUT HER THERE ABOUT THOSE ISSUES. THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR. WE NEED TO SEE THAT, ANDREA. THE PROBLEM IS IS THAT SHE CAMPAIGNED` IN THE CAMPAIGN SHE SAID THAT SHE WAS DO EVERYTHING SHE COULD TO MAKE SURE THAT RATES WOULDN'T RISE ` WELL, THEY'RE ABOUT TO GO UP BY 12.3%. SHE SAID THAT SHE WOULD FIX THE PIPES. WELLINGTON WATER ASKED FOR 10 MILLION ` THEY GOT THREE-SOMETHING MILLION, AND YET, THEY FIND 10 MILLION TO BUILD A PLAYGROUND. SO THAT'S WHY PEOPLE IN WELLINGTON ARE ANNOYED. THE LIGHT RAIL PROJECT ` IT HAS ITS BENEFITS, IT ALSO HAS ITS PROBLEMS. IT IS, AS I SAID, VERY POLARISING. AND I THINK WHEN YOU HEAR A MAYOR SAYING THAT SHE IS NOT ACROSS THE BUSINESS CASE WHICH IS UPCOMING, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT DOESN'T GIVE PEOPLE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE. OK, WELL WE ARE GOING TO BE COMING BACK TO YOU GUYS LATER IN THE PANEL` UH, LATER IN THE PROGRAMME FOR ANOTHER PANEL, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE FOR OUR FIRST SEGMENT. WELL, COMING UP NEXT - THE HERALD'S SHAYNE CURRIE AND THE SPINOFF'S ANNA RAWHITI-CONNELL ON PROPOSED NEW MEDIA RULES. PLUS, A TWO-TIME SURROGATE MOTHER ON WHAT NEW LAWS WILL MEAN FOR WHANAU LIKE HERS. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. DOES OUR MEDIA NEED ONE BIG OVERARCHING REGULATOR? A NEW PROPOSAL SAYS YES, IT DOES. FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE GOVERNMENT WOULD ATTEMPT TO REGULATE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, LIKE META AND YOUTUBE. BUT IT WOULD ALSO APPLY TO MAINSTREAM MEDIA OUTLETS. IS THIS ONLINE SAFETY OR CENSORSHIP? WELL, JOINING ME NOW IS SHAYNE CURRIE, EDITOR-AT-LARGE AT NZME WHO WRITES THE MEDIA INSIDER COLUMN, WELCOME, AND ANNA RAWHITI-CONNELL, THE SPINOFF'S HEAD OF AUDIENCE AND FORMER SOCIAL MEDIA CONSULTANT. TENA KORUA. LET'S START WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA SIDE, ANNA. WHEN IT COMES SOCIAL MEDIA REGULATION, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW? WELL, WE DON'T HAVE ANY REGULATION IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW. SO I MEAN, WE ARE NEARLY TWO DECADES INTO SOCIAL MEDIA, AND WE HAVE SORT OF GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE MANY PEOPLE WOULD SAY BIG TECH IS ALMOST TOO BIG TO REGULATE NOW. AND SO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OTHER COUNTRIES ACROSS THE WORLD IS THAT THERE ARE SOME ATTEMPTS FOR NATION STATES, ESSENTIALLY, TO ASSERT SOME KIND OF SOVEREIGNTY AND MAKE SOME RULES AROUND IT. SO, DO YOU HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I AS A VIEWER ENCOUNTER SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS HARMFUL, HOW WILL THIS NEW FRAMEWORK PREVENT THAT OR ADDRESS THAT? SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO DISPEL THE IDEA THAT IF YOU SAW SOMETHING THAT YOU DIDN'T LIKE OR YOU THOUGHT WAS HARMFUL, THAT YOU WOULD REPORT IT SOMEHOW AND IT WOULD GO TO THIS NEW SUPER-REGULATOR. ESSENTIALLY, WHAT THIS PROPOSAL IS SAYING IS, ACROSS ALL OF THE DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES, INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU COME BACK WITH A CODE OF PRACTICE, YOU ALTER YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE, YOU PUT SOME THINGS IN PLACE THAT USERS CAN USE AND IN INSTANCES WHERE YOU ARE NOT ADHERING TO THE CODE OF PRACTICE, THAT IS WHEN THIS NEW REGULATOR WOULD GET INVOLVED. OK. SO, THIS NEW REGULATOR, SHAYNE, IS GOING TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT TV, PRINT AND DIGITAL. I KNOW YOU ALREADY HAVE REGULATORY PROCESS ` WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE SO-CALLED MAINSTREAM MEDIA? YES WE DO, BUT IT'S A LITTLE COMPLICATED AT THE MOMENT, A LITTLE MESSY. THERE'S LOTS OF DIFFERENT BODIES. SO FOR INSTANCE, THE HERALD, AND OTHER MAINSTREAM DIGITAL PUBLICATIONS WORK UP TO THE MEDIA COUNCIL, WHEREAS NEWSHUB NATION AND OTHER BROADCASTERS ARE UNDER THE AUSPICES OF THE BROADCASTING STANDARDS AUTHORITY, SO THAT NEEDS TO BE TIDIED UP. WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS SAYING, OR INTERNAL AFFAIRS IN THIS DOCUMENT, IS THAT THEN OVER AND ABOVE THOSE REGULATORS, OR INDUSTRY BODIES, BECOMES A SUPERPOWER, AND THAT CAN SET THE CODES, IF IT'S NOT HAPPY WITH WHAT THE MEDIA COUNCIL AND BROADCASTING STANDARDS AUTHORITY IS DOING. THE SUPERPOWER COULD COME IN, CHANGE THE CODES, OR AT LEAST WORK WITH INDUSTRY ON STRENGTHENING THEM. SO IS THE INDUSTRY HAPPY WITH THIS? I SEE THAT STUFF'S SINEAD BOUCHER SAYS THAT IT GOES TOO FAR. WHAT IS THE POSSIBLE OVERREACH THAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT? YES, I MANAGED TO SPEAK TO MOST OF THE CEOS, ALL THE DIFFERENT BUSINESSES, AND ITS FAIR TO SAY THAT THE REACTION IS VERY CAUTIOUS THROUGH TO CONCERNED, DEEP CONCERN. WHAT ARE THEY CONCERNED ABOUT? WELL, CONCERN ABOUT THE IMPACT ON, I GUESS, FREEDOM OF THE PRESS. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT MEDIA... THAT THERE'S NOTHING PRE-EMPTIVE OR PRESCRIPTIVE IN THIS NEW SUPERPOWER THAT THEY CAN SORT OF DICTATE WHERE THE MEDIA IS GOING. INTERNAL AFFAIRS ITSELF HAS SAID, 'LOOK, WE'RE NOT SETTING UP 'THE SUPERPOWER TO DICTATE WHERE MEDIA...' IT SAYS IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY EDITORIAL CONTROL, THIS SUPERPOWER, THIS NEW REGULATOR, DOES IT? NO, BUT WHETHER CONCERN MAY COME IN IS AROUND THE PRINCIPLES THEMSELVES, AND WHAT DEFINES HARM? THIS IS WHERE THE HATE SPEECH LAWS CAME INTO... SO, YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD POINT. HOW, ANNA, WOULD WE DEFINE HARM, OR ARE WE JUST GOING TO GO DOWN THAT SORT OF WHOLE HATE SPEECH DEBATE AGAIN? WELL, I THINK, THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES THAT THIS PROPOSAL RAISES. SO THEY'VE SAID THAT THEY'RE NOT PLANNING ON CHANGING THE DEFINITION OF WHAT IS LEGAL AND ILLEGAL, AND THAT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WILL STILL BE DEALT WITH BY BODIES LIKE THE CENSOR OR THE POLICE. WHAT EXAMPLES ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, IN TERMS OF LEGAL AND ILLEGAL? WELL, YOU WOULD TALK ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE INCITING VIOLENCE, FOR EXAMPLE. IN THE INSTANCE OF KIND OF EXTREME CONTENT. THE HARM STUFF, THE EXAMPLE THAT THEY GIVE IS THEY TALK ABOUT DISORDERED EATING, FOR EXAMPLE, AND PEOPLE COMING ACROSS CONTENT WHICH MIGHT PROMOTE UNHEALTHY BODY IMAGE OR DISORDERED EATING. THE ISSUE AROUND THAT IS THAT THE SPECTRUM OF THAT IS QUITE WIDE. YOU COULD START WITH HOW TO MAKE A BUNCH OF HEALTHY SALADS, AND BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE ALGORITHMS WORK` AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PROPOSAL SPEAKS TO SOME ALGORITHM TRANSPARENCY, BUT IT'S PRETTY... UNCLEAR AS TO HOW THAT MIGHT WORK, YOU CAN END UP VERY QUICKLY IN SOME VERY NASTY CONTENT AROUND VERY DISORDERED EATING. SO WORKING WITH THAT SPECTRUM AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY WHAT THE THRESHOLD FOR HARM IS IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES. SHAYNE, DO YOU SEE ISSUES THERE AS WELL, IN TERMS OF IDENTIFICATION, DEFINITION OF HARM, AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING, 'WELL, YOU'RE JUST 'CURTAILING MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH.' ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY. ANY CODE NEEDS TO BE OBJECTIVE. IF THE REGULATOR DOES COME IN, WE NEED, AND THE INDUSTRY NEEDS, TO KNOW WHAT THE CODES SPECIFICALLY THAT WE'RE WORKING TO, AND THAT WORKS RIGHT NOW FOR US. I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES FOR US IS, YOU KNOW, WE ARE HEAVILY-REGULATED, AS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, IF YOU LIKE, OR THE TRADITIONAL MEDIA PLATFORMS. BUT, AS ANNA SAYS, SOCIAL MEDIA, SINCE THE LAWS HAVE COME IN, SOCIAL MEDIA'S BEEN HERE NOW FOR A GOOD TWO DECADES, THEY JUST HAVEN'T GOT AROUND THE TABLE. WE'VE SEEN CASES AND INCIDENCES, LIKE THE CHRISTCHURCH TERROR ATTACK, WHERE THIS HORRIFIC CONTENT WAS BEING POSTED ONLINE WITH NO RULES OR REGULATIONS. IT'S EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE CONTENT AS JOURNALISTS. IT'S EXPENSIVE TO RUN NEWSROOMS, YET THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS... WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, ALL RIGHT? SO WE'VE GOT THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES OVERSEAS, AND IF WE SET UP A NEW ZEALAND REGULATOR, IS A META, IS A FACEBOOK, IS A TIKTOK, GOING TO PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THESE REGULATIONS? WELL, I DID GET BRIEF COMMENT FROM META THIS WEEK IN WHICH THEY SAY 'WE'RE ALREADY WORKING TO A VOLUNTARY CODE' THAT THEY INTRODUCED LAST YEAR WITH INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS. BUT I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT MORE WORK TO BE DONE WITH THEM AND, YOU KNOW, THAT WILL TAKE INVESTMENT FROM THEM. AND WE'VE SEEN JUST IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS JUST WHERE META IS HEADING, IN TERMS OF ITS CONTENT AND ITS ALGORITHMS. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER ISSUES ON THE TABLE WITH META AND GOOGLE AT THE MOMENT, WITH THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WHETHER THESE BIG PLATFORMS ARE GOING TO TAKE ANY NOTICE AT ALL, ANNA? I MEAN, I THINK WE HAVE SOME PRECEDENT IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENED OVERSEAS ` SO AUSTRALIA INTRODUCED THEIR ONLINE SAFETY ACT IN 2021. THEY ARE, AND I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY A GOOD INDICATION OF HOW LONG THIS KIND OF THING MIGHT TAKE, BUT THEY ARE STILL WORKING THROUGH THAT PROCESS. BUT WHERE THEY'VE GOTTEN TO IS THOSE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF CODES OF PRACTICE, RIGHT? SO THERE IS PRECEDENT FOR THESE COMPANIES COMING TO THE TABLE. I MEAN, I THINK THEIR PREFERENCE IS TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS, IN TERMS OF DEVELOPING THESE CODES OF PRACTICE, AND THAT KIND OF RAISES SOME QUESTIONS AS WELL. BUT IT WILL TAKE TIME, I THINK, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT WHAT IS BEING SUGGESTED IS TOO RESTRICTIVE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO THINK IT'S TOO SOFT. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ANSWER, AS SOMEONE HAS BEEN IN THE AREA FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES? I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY GOOD START, AND IT'S A REALLY GOOD STEP. I THINK THE DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT WE DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ` WE JUST SAY, 'TOO BIG, CAN'T DO IT,' AND KIND OF ROLL OVER AND DIE. OR WE ASSERT, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF SOVEREIGNTY AND MAKE SOME ATTEMPTS TO PUT SOME RULES IN PLACE. I THINK COMBINING ALL THE REGULATORY STUFF, I THINK CREATING THAT LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, I THINK SHAYNE'S RIGHT, IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT MEDIA HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY WELL-REGULATED, AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS NOT AT ALL. SHAYNE, WHAT IS YOUR IDEAL, HAVING BEEN AN EDITOR OF A LARGE ORGANISATION? ABSOLUTELY, AND I THINK ANY PIECE OF CONTENT THAT WE PUT UP ONLINE, GOES THROUGH AT LEAST TWO OR THREE SETS OF EYES. WHEREAS SOCIAL MEDIA, FRANKLY, HAS BEEN THE WILD WEST OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES, AND THAT'S CAUSED LOTS OF ISSUES. SO I THINK THE SOLUTION, FOR ME, LIES IN ITS GREAT START, AND I AGREE WITH ANNA ON THIS DISCUSSION DOCUMENT ` IT'S GOING TO TAKE MANY YEARS TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE NEED TO BE. I THINK WE NEED TO TIDY UP SOME OF THE` POSSIBLY THE INDUSTRY BODIES. THERE'S A LOT OF THEM. YEAH, IT IS CONFUSING FOR THE CONSUMER, ISN'T IT? WELL, I DISAGREE WITH THAT. I KNOW THE DISCUSSION DOCUMENT SAID THAT. I THINK WE'RE PRETTY CLEAR AT THE HERALD, AND STUFF AND OTHERS ARE CLEAR AS WELL, JUST WHERE YOU CAN COMPLAIN TO, IN TERMS OF THE MEDIA COUNCIL AND HOW TO DO IT. AND THAT'S IMPORTANT. THE MEDIA COUNCIL HAS GOT A MAJORITY PUBLIC MEMBERSHIP; IT'S NOT RUN BY THE INDUSTRY, IT'S GOT AN INDEPENDENT CHAIR. IT'S A REALLY EFFECTIVE SELF-REGULATORY BODY. RIGHT, RIGHT, OK. ARE YOU SAYING TO ME THAT YOU DON'T THINK THERE ACTUALLY NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT INTO THIS OVERALL ARCHING REGULATOR? THERE CAN BE SOME TIDY UPS IN THAT AREA, BUT I DON'T THINK ANY MORE REGULATION NEEDS TO BE PUT ON TRADITIONAL MEDIA. WHAT ABOUT IF... I MEAN, THERE ARE COMEBACKS FOR MAINSTREAM MEDIA ORGANISATIONS IF THEY DECIDE SOMETHING WAS OK, AND THEN THE PERSON THAT LAID THE COMPLAINT CAN GO HIGHER. BUT WITH SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES, THERE ISN'T THAT, AND SO, WHAT IS IN THIS PROPOSAL THAT IS GOING TO SAY TO A SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY, 'WE'RE GOING TO FINE YOU' 'OR WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO YOU, WE'RE GONNA TAKE AWAY 'YOUR ACCESS TO NEW ZEALAND.' IS THERE ANYTHING LIKE THAT? SO THEY HAVEN'T GONE SO FAR AS TO KIND OF OUTLINE EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THEY HAVE MENTIONED FINES. AND THEY ARE... YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE PROPOSAL, THE QUESTION'S AROUND WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT SHOULD KIND OF LOOK LIKE? I THINK THE KEY CHANGE FOR SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES IS THAT THERE WILL NOW BE SPECIFIC TERMS OF SERVICE FOR USERS IN NEW ZEALAND OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS ` THAT IS WHAT THEY'RE ASKING THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES TO DO. SO YOUR EXPERIENCE OF SOCIAL MEDIA IN NEW ZEALAND MAY WELL DIFFER TO THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES. AND AGAIN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE E.U IS LOOKING AT, THAT AUSTRALIA IS LOOKING AT, THAT CANADA IS LOOKING AT, SO IT'S NOT UNPRECEDENTED. BUT WHAT IT DOES IS IT SHIFTS THE BURDEN ONTO THOSE COMPANIES TO ADHERE NOW TO LAWS OR REGULATIONS SPECIFICALLY SET BY A COUNTRY. AND JUST FINALLY, SHAYNE, IS THERE` BECAUSE MAINSTREAM MEDIA USES SOCIAL MEDIA LOT TO PROMOTE ITS PRODUCT AND DISSEMINATE ITS PRODUCT, IS THERE A CHANCE THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES IF THEY GET TARGETED IN THIS WAY IS GOING TO AFFECT THE BUSINESS OF THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA COMPANIES? WELL, THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT DISCUSSION. AND THERE'S BEEN A BIG LONG, OBVIOUSLY, DEBATE AROUND JUST WHAT FACEBOOK, ESPECIALLY, AND META AND GOOGLE SHOULD BE FUNDING THE NEWS MEDIA COMPANIES AND SHORTLY WE'LL SEE THE GOVERNMENT INTRODUCE LEGISLATION ALONG THOSE LINES, WHICH DOES LEVEL UP THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT MEANS THAT SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES WILL PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE. THEY DO USE OUR CONTENT TO HELP THEIR OWN BUSINESS MODELS A LOT. YES, YES, YES, OK. IN TERMS OF PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM DIGITAL HARM, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THIS DISCUSSION. SHAYNE CURRIE FROM NZME, AND ANNA RAWHITI-CONNELL FROM THE SPINOFF, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY. A MURI AKE NEI ` IT'S ABOUT TO BECOME EASIER TO HAVE A BABY BY SURROGATE IN NEW ZEALAND. WE UNPACK THE NEW LAWS WITH SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THEM WELL ` A TWO-TIME SURROGATE MOTHER. SURROGACY LAWS ARE BEING OVERHAULED, AND IT SHOULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO PARENTS. RIGHT NOW, CURRENT LAWS, DATING BACK TO 1955, MEAN YOU HAVE TO ADOPT YOUR OWN BABY. IT'S A PROCESS ONE KIWI FAMILY MANAGED TO COMPLETE ACROSS TWO COUNTRIES DURING THE PANDEMIC. TWO YEARS AGO WE COVERED THAT STORY AS SURROGATE MOTHER REBECCA HAWORTH CARRIED HER BROTHER AND SISTER-IN-LAW'S BABY, VERA. REBECCA WAS IN NEW ZEALAND; THEY WERE IN AMERICA. HELLO! TWO WOMEN AND ONE BABY ` VERA GRACE. ASHLYN IS HER MUM. IT WAS HER EGG. SHE LIVES IN AMERICA. IT WAS SUCH AN AMAZING GIFT THAT WE WERE GIVEN. GIVEN BY HER SISTER-IN-LAW, REBECCA, WHO LIVES IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS A BIG THING. YOU CAN'T DENY THAT. I LIKE TO SAY NO, IT'S NOT. BUT IT IS. YOU'RE DEAD RIGHT. IT IS A BIG THING. AND THEN THERE ARE THE MEN ` REBECCA'S HUSBAND, JAMES. (BABY TALKS) AND BABY VERA'S DAD, TIM. OH, SHE'S DOING GOOD. IT'S A WAY WE COULD HELP THEM HAVE A FAMILY, AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT OTHERWISE. NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM YOUR SISTER. THIS IS THE MOMENT OF IMPLANTATION. I RANG` SKYPED THEM, AND I HELD THE PREGNANCY TEST UP AND I SAID, 'I THINK I'M PREGNANT.' YEAH, THERE'S NOTHING QUITE LIKE GROWING BABY IN SOMEBODY ELSE'S WOMB ACROSS THE WORLD IN A WORLDWIDE PANDEMIC. YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE THESE THINGS UP. ASHLYN, AN AMERICAN, HAD TO GET A COMPASSIONATE VISA TO COME HERE. THEN THE COUPLE HAD TO STAY IN MANAGED ISOLATION, AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THEY SAW THEIR BABY. AND IN SEPTEMBER 2020, VERA GRACE WAS BORN. AND THAT SHOULD BE THE END OF THE STORY. ASH AND TIM FINALLY HAD THEIR BABY, BUT IT WASN'T THEIRS. UNDER NEW ZEALAND LAW, THE ADOPTION ACT OF 1955, REBECCA AND JAMES WERE THE LEGAL PARENTS. THAT WAS KIND OF A KICK IN THE PANTS, REALLY. I KNOW THE LAWS ARE VERY OLD AND THEY'RE IN THE PROCESS OF LOOKING AT THEM. BUT FINALLY, IT WAS TIME TO SAY GOODBYE TO THE WOMAN WHO BROUGHT VERA INTO THE WORLD. HOW DO THESE LAST KISSES FEEL, REBECCA? FEELS A BIT BITTERSWEET. YEAH. I KNEW IT WAS COMING. WELL REBECCA IS NOW TIM AND ASHLYNN'S SURROGATE FOR A SECOND TIME. THE PROPOSED LAWS ARE STILL IN DEVELOPMENT, SO THE COUPLE WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE ADOPTION PROCESS AGAIN. I CAUGHT UP WITH TIM AND REBECCA THIS WEEK, ONE DAY BEFORE THE BABY WAS DUE TO ARRIVE. I SAID AT THE BEGINNING I WOULD GIVE THEM TWO BABIES AND NUMBER TWO WILL BE HERE TOMORROW. WOW. YEAH, GOOD TIMING, EH? (LAUGHS) TIM, WHY ARE YOU HAVING A SECOND BABY? IT WAS NOT GOING TO BE SAFE FOR MY WIFE AND I` WELL, MY WIFE TO TRY AND CARRY ANOTHER BABY. SO MY SISTER WAS SO LOVELY TO OFFER TO BE A SURROGATE AGAIN. OUR DAUGHTER VERA'S 2�. BECKY CARRIED HER FOR US LAST TIME, OF COURSE. SO WE ALWAYS WANTED TO HAVE MULTIPLE CHILDREN IF POSSIBLE. AND BECKY'S MAKING THAT POSSIBLE. AND I DREW THE LINE AT TWO. YEAH. YOU DREW THE LINE AT TWO. THERE ARE NO MORE AFTER THIS? NOT FROM ME. (LAUGHS) WE'RE ALSO GETTING OLDER, SO WE'D BE MORE THAN HAPPY WITH TWO HEALTHY CHILDREN. OK. ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE ALL GOING TO SETTLE ON TWO. YES. GREAT. DONE DEAL. HOW SMOOTHLY DID THE TRANSFER OF THE EMBRYO GO THIS TIME? SO I WENT OVER IN MARCH '22 TO HAVE A TRANSFER, AND THAT ONE, UNFORTUNATELY, DIDN'T TAKE. SO IT WAS THE THIRD TRANSFER. AND THEN I WENT BACK IN SEPTEMBER '22, AND THIS IS THE RESULT. (LAUGHS) SO THAT ONE DID TAKE. AND HOW'S THE PREGNANCY BEEN? IT'S BEEN GOOD. IT'S` FOR AN ALMOST GERIATRIC PREGNANCY, YEAH, IT'S BEEN GOOD. THE LAST MONTH, I'VE REALLY FELT IT. BUT THAT'S, I THINK, JUST A BIGGER BABY, BEING OLDER, UM, YOU KNOW, BEING ON MY FEET PROBABLY TOO MUCH. NOT BEING A LADY OF LEISURE. YOU'VE BEEN VERY TIRED. I'VE BEEN TIRED. BUT THAT'S... I THINK THAT'S JUST PREGNANCY IN YOUR LATE 30S VERSUS IN MY EARLY 20S WITH MY KIDS. WHAT MAKES YOU WANT TO DO THIS? IT'S A REALLY BIG ASK. UM, I'M A VERY BIG BELIEVER IN, YOU KNOW, DOING UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU. AND ALSO, I'VE GROWN UP WITH TWO SIBLINGS WHO I'M VERY CLOSE TO. AND AS A RESULT, OUR FAMILIES ARE CLOSE AND OUR KIDS ARE ALL CLOSE. AND I WANT THAT FOR THEM AS WELL. AND I WANT THAT FOR VERA ` THAT SHE'LL HAVE A SIBLING TO LOVE ON, AND THEN THEY'LL HAVE THEIR WEE FAMILY AS WELL. YEAH. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, FAMILY IS AMAZING, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN... YEAH, IT'S FOR THEM. YOU KNOW, IT MEANS THEY GET TO HAVE THEIR OWN FAMILY. WHAT IS IT LIKE AS A FAMILY? I MEAN, TIM, WHAT IS IT LIKE`? YOU'RE CLOSE TO YOUR SISTER, AND NOW YOUR SISTER HAS HELPED YOU WITH YOUR FIRST CHILD. WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR THE FAMILY DYNAMIC? YOU FEEL A LITTLE GUILTY. (CHUCKLES) HONESTLY. REALLY? BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE HAS TO GO THROUGH. BUT YOU FEEL JUST SORT OF AN OVERWHELMING THANKFULNESS, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO THANK HER OTHER THAN JUST SAYING, 'THANK YOU,' AND, 'WHATEVER YOU NEED, LET US KNOW.' THE FUNNY THING YOU SAID ` IT'S A BIG ASK. SHE ACTUALLY OFFERED BEFORE WE EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT ASKING, BEFORE FOR THE WHOLE PROCESS STARTED. SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S CRAZY. LIKE, WE FOUGHT LIKE CATS AND DOGS AS TEENAGERS, AS A LOT OF SIBLINGS DO. AND HER OLDER TWO ARE DOING THAT RIGHT NOW. AND I TRY AND REMIND THEM EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS WHEN THEY DO THAT. I'M LIKE, 'YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT CARRY HIS BABIES ONE DAY,' AND THEY'RE LIKE, 'NO, THAT'S GROSS! WE CAN'T DO THAT.' BUT, YOU KNOW, JUST TO BREAK THE` BREAK THE TENSION. BUT YEAH, FOR THE FAMILY DYNAMIC, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST FEEL IMMENSE GRATITUDE IN JUST GIVING US THAT OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT WOULDN'T BE SAFE FOR MY WIFE TO CARRY, ACCORDING TO HER DOCTORS IN THE STATES. SO THIS WAS REALLY THE ONLY VIABLE OPTION. AND THANKFULLY SHE HAD OFFERED BEFORE WE EVEN THOUGHT TO ASK. SO YEAH, IT'S AWESOME. I THINK WHAT PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO KNOW, REBECCA, IS WHAT'S IT LIKE GIVING BIRTH TO A BABY THAT'S NOT YOURS AND THEN WATCHING SOMEBODY ELSE PARENT THAT BABY? IT'S` YEAH, IT'S BEEN AMAZING WATCHING THEM. AND IT'S A LITTLE BIT TRICKY, BECAUSE THEY WERE HERE FOR THE FIRST SORT OF FIVE, SIX MONTHS OF VERA'S LIFE. SO WE'VE GOT TO SEE THOSE VERY EARLY DAYS. BUT THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY ONLY SEE SNAPSHOTS WITH THEM LIVING OVERSEAS. SO YOU SEE LITTLE VIDEOS OR PHOTOS HERE IN THERE. AND YOU KNOW, YOU TALK TO THEM ON FACETIME AND THAT SORT OF THING. SO YOU CATCH UP ON BITS THAT WAY, BUT YOU'RE A LITTLE BIT REMOVED OBVIOUSLY AS WELL. BUT THEN WITH GOING OVER A COUPLE OF TIMES LAST YEAR, YOU GET TO SEE, YOU KNOW, HOW HANDS-ON THEY ARE WITH HER AND HOW INVOLVED. AND IT'S REALLY COOL TO SEE, AND YEAH, THEM JUST GETTING TO BE PARENTS. BUT EVERYBODY PARENTS DIFFERENTLY. ABSOLUTELY, YEP. AND DO YOU HAVE THAT URGE OF LIKE, 'THEY'RE NOT DOING IT MY WAY'? NO I DON'T. DON'T HAVE ANY SENSE OF OWNERSHIP? NO I DON'T. AND IT WAS QUITE NICE. THE COUPLE OF TIMES I DID GO OVER LAST YEAR, IT WAS ALMOST REFRESHING IN A WAY THAT I COULD SEE VERA, AND IT WAS ALMOST LIKE A GOOD TEST IN A WAY. I WAS LIKE, 'DO I WANT HER TO BE MINE?' AND I'D BE LIKE, 'NO, I DON'T.' LIKE, I LOVE HER TO PIECES, DON'T GET ME WRONG, BUT I CAN LOOK AT HER AND GO, SHE'S NOT MY CHILD; SHE'S MY NIECE. AND I HAD NO` LIKE, IF THEY ASK FOR ADVICE ON CERTAIN THINGS, I'LL GIVE THEM ADVICE. BUT I'D ALWAYS PREFACE IT BY SAYING, 'BUT SHE'S YOUR CHILD. 'YOU NEED TO CHOOSE THE WAY YOU WANT TO PARENT,' BECAUSE THAT COULD BE QUITE DIFFERENT TO THE WAY MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE CHOSEN TO PARENT. SHE TOLD US WITHIN, LIKE, THE FIRST COUPLE OF DAYS OF VERA'S LIFE, 'HEY, I'M REALLY, REALLY GLAD 'I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY MATERNAL PULL. 'LIKE, THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I'D THOUGHT COULD HAPPEN. 'I WAS WORRIED IT MIGHT HAPPEN. 'IT DIDN'T, SO THAT'S SUPER HELPFUL EMOTIONALLY.' (CHUCKLES) SO YEAH, SHE'S BEEN JUST` SHE'S BEEN A GREAT AUNTIE, AND VERA LOVES SEEING HER AND PLAYING WITH HER KIDS. AND HER KIDS ARE THAT BIT OLDER. THEY SORT OF GET TOLD WHAT TO DO BY VERA, AND THEY'LL SORT OF FOLLOW ALONG. AND AS YOU SAW, ONE WAS IN THE PANTRY WITH HER BEFORE. YEAH. SO YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOOD. SO IT'S A GOOD RELATIONSHIP. SO IS IT A TYPICAL AUNTIE-NIECE RELATIONSHIP? I'D SAY SO. I THINK SO, YEAH. FROM WHAT I SEE AND EXPERIENCE. YEAH. OK. THE SECOND TIME YOU'RE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS, TIM, BEFORE YOU HAD TO BE VETTED BY ORANGA TAMARIKI TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU WERE SUITABLE TO HAVE A SURROGATE... YEP. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. ...TO HAVE YOUR CHILD, DID YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS AGAIN? YEAH. SO PRETTY, PRETTY SIMILAR PROCESS. WE'RE ACTUALLY WORKING WITH THE SAME CASEWORKER, AND SO SHE SORT OF HAD ALL OUR BACKGROUND ALREADY, SO NOT QUITE AS MANY INTERVIEWS AND FORMS, BUT STILL ALL THE FORMS THEY NEED FOR THEIR FILE. SO THEY STILL HAD TO CHECK YOU OUT EVEN THOUGH YOU'D BEEN THROUGH THE PROCESS? YEAH, WE HAD TO GET OUR POLICE CHECKS FROM THE STATES AGAIN AND HEALTH CHECKS AND ALL THOSE DIFFERENT SCANS. IT'S ALL` AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE, IT'S ALL THE SAME DOCUMENTATION FOR IF YOU WERE DOING A PRIVATE ADOPTION. SO YOU'RE HAVING TO PROVE THAT YOU'RE A VIABLE CANDIDATE EVEN THOUGH IT'S YOUR OWN CHILD. SO THEY'RE FINALLY LOOKING AT CHANGING THE LAW. SO IF YOU HAVE A BABY BY SURROGATE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADOPT YOUR OWN CHILD. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? UM, I THINK IT'S A GREAT PROGRESS. IT MAKES SENSE. I KNOW` THE I GUESS THE MAIN PROBLEM WAS THAT THERE WAS NO SPECIFIC SURROGATE LAW BEFORE. SO IT WAS ` IT'S AN ADOPTION; YOU'RE SEEN AS AN ADOPTION. SO THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE ALL THIS PAPERWORK. SO IT WASN'T, LIKE, A PERSONAL ATTACK BECAUSE OF THAT. BUT I THINK IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. IF YOU'RE THE BIOLOGICAL PARENTS OR YOU'RE PARTIALLY THE BIOLOGICAL PARENTS ` HOWEVER, YOU'VE COME AROUND TO MAKING YOUR EMBRYOS ` AND YOUR SURROGATE'S CARRIED THEM FOR YOU, AND THAT'S YOUR AGREEMENT PRIOR TO THE FACT, I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ADOPT YOUR OWN CHILD. THEY'RE ALSO LOOKING AT SETTING UP A REGISTER ` SO WHERE AN INTENDING PARENT LIKE YOURSELF AND THERE IS A SURROGATE WHO IS WILLING TO BE A SURROGATE ` IT CAN BE MATCHED. IS THAT A GOOD IDEA? YEAH, I WOULD SAY IT'S A FANTASTIC IDEA. WHEN WE FOUND THAT WE WEREN'T ABLE TO CARRY CHILDREN OURSELVES, WE RAN INTO A LOT OF OTHER NEW FRIENDS THAT HAD SIMILAR SITUATIONS WHERE THEY HAD LOST PREGNANCIES, LOST BABIES, AND THEY REALLY HAD NO OPTIONS FOR SURROGATES, BECAUSE IN THE STATES, YOU PAY SURROGATES QUITE A HEFTY FEE. SO IF THERE IS A REGISTRY OF PEOPLE REALLY WILLING TO CARRY A BABY FOR YOU AND IT COULD HELP PROSPECTIVE PARENTS HAVE THEIR OWN BIOLOGICAL CHILD, I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA. YEAH. AND ALSO THE COST. I MEAN, DID YOU GUYS HAVE TO COME UP WITH A FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU, OR BECAUSE OF YOUR FAMILY THAT WASN'T AN ISSUE? YEAH. NO, IT WASN'T AN ISSUE. I DON'T THINK` I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S LAW IN NEW ZEALAND, BUT IT'S... I THINK IT'S MEANT TO BE AN ALTRUISTIC... YEAH. YOU CAN ONLY CLAIM REASONABLE COSTS LIKE LOST WAGES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT YOU CAN'T CLAIM A FEE. YEAH. SO YEAH. SO SOME BAGELS HERE AND THERE AND... (BOTH LAUGH) AND REIMBURSING HER FOR ANY SCAN FEES THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW COST MONEY, THAT KIND OF THING. YEAH. YEAH. NOTHING ELSE? THERE'S NO ONGOING COMMITMENT? NO, NOT THAT I'VE BEEN MADE AWARE OF YET. OH, YOU THINK YOU MIGHT...? I'LL SURPRISE HIM TOMORROW. AFTER THE BABY'S IN OUR ARMS, IT'LL BE, 'SURPRISE, HERE'S YOUR BILL.' I DON'T THINK THAT'S ALLOWED, REBECCA. OH. SHE MIGHT WANT NAMING RIGHTS MAYBE, AS WELL. YEAH. NAMING RIGHTS, OK. TIM, YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS TWICE, AND SO HAVE YOU, REBECCA, ALMOST. JUST ABOUT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER CHANGES THAT YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN IN THE NEW ZEALAND CONTEXT? IF THEY'RE REMOVING THE ADOPTION REQUIREMENT, I ASSUME THAT IT WILL TAKE AWAY ANY OF THE LEGAL SIDE THAT WE HAD TO DEAL WITH AFTER THE BABY'S BORN. I ASSUME THERE'LL BE SOME REQUIREMENT FOR SURROGACY AGREEMENTS TO BE SIGNED AND NOTARISED IN ADVANCE BECAUSE THAT'S ONE THING THAT WE DIDN'T REALISE ` THE AMOUNT OF PAPERWORK EVEN IN THE STATES PRIOR TO HER BEING ABLE TO BE OUR SURROGATE WAS THERE'S A LOT OF EVALUATION OF` PSYCH EVALUATIONS TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WANT TO STEAL THE BABY, KIND OF. BUT THEN ALSO JUST MAKING SURE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE PROCESS AND WHAT THAT MAY DO TO YOU MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY. I STILL FEEL LIKE THERE SHOULD` I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEW ZEALAND PLAN IS, BUT THERE SHOULD STILL BE SOME SORT OF REQUIREMENTS AROUND CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENTS, I GUESS, WITH YOUR SURROGATE TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE'S AWARE OF... LIKE AN OFFICIAL SURROGACY ORDER? YEAH, EXACTLY. THE EMOTIONAL TOLL OF SURROGACY ` I MEAN, DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF WHAT IT COULD TAKE? I MEAN, YOU GUYS ARE A PARTICULAR SPECIAL CASE BECAUSE OF YOUR BOND AS FAMILY, BUT IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE FAMILY CONNECTION, WOULD IT BE A VERY HARD ROAD EMOTIONALLY, DO YOU THINK, REBECCA? I THINK SO. I'M NOT SURE I'D DO IT FOR SOMEONE WHO WASN'T FAMILY. I GUESS BECAUSE OF THE EMOTIONAL TOLL. IT'S A LOT TO GO THROUGH EMOTIONALLY. UM, BUT I'M NOT SURE THERE'S ANYONE I WOULD DO IT FOR OTHERWISE. BUT THERE'S LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO DO DO IT FOR SOMEONE WHO IS A COMPLETE STRANGER TO THEM. YEAH. OK. SO, ALMOST AT THE END OF THE ROAD. SECOND BABY. (LAUGHS) CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED AGAIN? IT'S SLIGHTLY SURREAL IN A WAY THAT IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN. BUT IT'S COOL, AND I'M GLAD IT IS. BUT YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE WEIRD. IT'S CLOSING A CHAPTER... THAT I'M WELL AND TRULY DONE HAVING BABIES NOW. (LAUGHS) IT HAS HAPPENED AGAIN. AND WE'VE HAD NEWS OVERNIGHT THAT REBECCA DELIVERED A BABY BOY FOR TIM AND ASHLYNN YESTERDAY. AND HERE HE IS ON HIS TV DEBUT. CONGRATULATIONS TO THEM ALL. VERY CUTE. E WHAI AKE NEI ` COMING UP ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL ON THE NEWS AND POLITICS OF THE WEEK. PLUS, A USUALLY UNFLAPPABLE SPEAKER PUTS HIS FOOT DOWN IN THE HOUSE. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. WE'RE BACK WITH OUR PANEL ` STUFF SENIOR REPORTER ANDREA VANCE AND MEREPEKA RAUKAWA-TAIT WHO IS CHAIR OF THE WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONING AGENCY. WELCOME BACK TO YOU BOTH. IT'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF AN UNUSUAL WEEKEND IN POLITICS. WE'VE HAD THE SORT OF NATIONAL HEADING DOWN A CUL-DE-SAC WITH ITS BILINGUAL ROAD SIGNS ISSUE. WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? I AM NORTHERN IRISH AND I'VE LIVED IN WALES AND SCOTLAND, AND I LIVED IN WALES IN THE LATE 1990S AND WE HAD BILINGUAL SIGNS THERE AND I HAD NO ISSUE EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T SPEAK WELSH. WE HAD NO PROBLEM. I NEVER GOT LOST OR RUN OVER. I DON'T REALLY SEE THE PROBLEM. WHAT DO YOU THINK, MEREPEKA? THEY'RE MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NATIONAL PARTY, THEY HAVE RULED OUT WORKING WITH THE MAORI PARTY. THEY WILL DISESTABLISH THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. THEY'VE GOT ISSUE WITH ROAD SIGNAGE. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE TRYING TO PITCH MAORI AS BEING A PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE, BUT IT DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT AND IT FEELS AS THOUGH THEY ARE TAKING US BACK TO A TIME OF 30 YEARS AGO, AND WE ARE WAY PAST THAT. I'M SAD TO SEE IT, REALLY. IT'S A NO-BRAINER. A NONISSUE FOR MANY KIWIS. THEY ALSO RUNNING IN THE MAORI SEATS. I KIND OF HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOULD EXIST, THEN WHY ARE YOU STANDING? IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN IT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN IT. I THINK THAT IS HUGELY PROBLEMATIC AND A LITTLE BIT INSULTING TO THE CANDIDATES WHO DO BELIEVE IN IT AND TO THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE ON THE MAORI ROLE. IS IT A BIG DISTRACTION? THERE'S PLENTY ELSE HAPPENING IN POLITICS. WHY DO THEY GET TRAPPED IN THIS STUFF? THEY ARE LOOKING BACKWARDS ` BACK TO A TIME OF 30 YEARS AGO WHEN THEIR CORE CONSTITUENCY WOULD HAVE BOUGHT INTO THAT. TODAY, YOUNG PEOPLE AND OUR YOUNG CHILDREN ARE GROWING UP WITH MAORI WORDS. THEY'RE SO FAMILIAR WITH TIKANGA. THEY GO ON TO MARAE. THEY'RE PREPARING THEIR LITTLE PROJECTS FOR MATARIKI. ALL OF THAT SORT OF THING. SO THEY ARE UNDERESTIMATING WHERE NEW ZEALANDERS ARE AT THESE DAYS. WE ARE EMBRACIVE OF ALL THINGS MAORI. SO I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY'RE BANGING ON ABOUT THIS. IS IT BAD POLITICAL MANAGEMENT TOO? SHOULD CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAVE SHUT THIS DOWN WHEN IT REARED ITS HEAD? I THINK IT WAS IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS AT A MEETING. POLITICIANS GET ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS AT MEETINGS. THEY DON'T GO ON AND TALK ABOUT THEM ON TV. I WAS INFURIATED WITH POLITICS LAST WEEK. I THINK THIS LITTLE SCRAP OVER PRESCRIPTION FEES THAT THEY WALKED INTO AND LABOUR WAS DISINGENUOUS ABOUT ` AND I THINK THE MEDIA HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS AS WELL. I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY OPINION PIECES I READ THIS WEEK ON BILINGUAL SIGNS. MEANWHILE... AND HERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT. THERE ARE SO MANY MORE PRESSING, REAL GENUINE PROBLEMS IN THIS COUNTRY, NOT LEAST THE HEALTH SYSTEM AND THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING TO CHOOSE BETWEEN FEEDING THE KIDS AND HEATING THEIR HOMES. POLITICIANS ARE CONSTANTLY DISTRACTING US FROM THESE ISSUES WITH JUST SILLY ARGUMENTS THAT DON'T REALLY HAVE A MEANING INTO ANYONE ELSE. WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE THIS FIVE DOLLAR PRESCRIPTION THAT THEY'LL GO BACK ON CONTRACEPTION ` THEY SEEM TO WALKED RIGHT INTO THAT. IT TO ME IT'S AS IF SOMEBODY ELSE'S YANKING THEIR CHAIN AND THEY ARE RESPONDING. IF YOU WANT TO BE A POLITICAL PARTY WITH CREDIBILITY, YOU HIGHLIGHT THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOU, THAT YOU WANT TO CHANGE AND THAT YOU BELIEVE NEW ZEALANDERS CARE ABOUT AS WELL. THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO DO. AND IF YOU HAVE TO LIMIT IT TO THREE OR FIVE, THAT'S IT. WHEN YOU'RE ALL OVER THE PLACE AND YOU CAN'T RESPOND QUICKLY AND THEN YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY GO BACK AND JUSTIFY IT, THAT IS NOT A GOOD LOOK. WHY CAN'T WE SUSTAIN` WHY ARE THESE THINGS POPPING UP AND TAKING OVER THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE? BECAUSE THEY ARE SIMPLE, EASY THINGS TO DEBATE AND GET ANGRY ABOUT. THE REALLY MASSIVE PROBLEMS THAT THE COUNTRY IS FACING, THAT THE WORLD IS FACING, ARE REALLY COMPLICATED. THERE ARE NO EASY SOLUTIONS AND FRANKLY MOST OF THE POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE NO SOLUTIONS TO THESE PROBLEMS. SO IT MAKES SENSE FOR THEM NOT TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS THAT GET PEOPLE EMOTIONAL BUT DON'T SOLVE ANYTHING. WE'VE HAD SOME POLICY FROM BOTH PARTIES, BUT THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO SEE GOING INTO THE ELECTION ISN'T IT? BUT IT IS THE LOW-LEVEL DEBATE THAT WE ACCEPT IN NEW ZEALAND. THAT'S VERY TRUE. WE ACCEPT THE ONCE OVER LIGHTLY, THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IT, AND YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DRILL DOWN INTO THE ISSUES SO THAT YOU CAN SEE WHAT WE HAVE TO CHANGE, AND THIS IS THE WAY, AND WHO SHOULD WE BE CONSULTING WITH? THEY CAN TAKE ONE LOOK AT A POLICY IN THE REGIONS AND SAY THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO FLY. YOU NEED TO BE TALKING TO THE PEOPLE WHO, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WILL IMPLEMENT SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT YOU WANT TO PROMOTE. I WAS GOING TO SAY, IS THAT A FEATURE OF THE POLICIES AND THE POLITICS OR AN INDICATION OF OUR APPETITE FOR POLICY DISCUSSING AS A NATION? THAT IS A PROBLEM OBVIOUSLY, BUT I THINK IT IS THE JOB OF LAWMAKERS AND POLICYMAKERS TO MAKE IT AN ATTRACTIVE PROPOSITION. PEOPLE HAVE BUSY LIVES ` GETTING THE KIDS TO SCHOOL, SPORTS. ALL THE OTHER MILLION THINGS WE HAVE TO DO DAY TO DAY. KEEPING OUR JOBS, PAYING A MORTGAGE, SO WE DO HAVE TO MAKE THE POLICY DEVELOPMENT PROCESS ATTRACTIVE, INTERESTING, EASY. 60-PAGE POLICY DOCUMENTS REQUIRING YOU TO FILL IN A FORM, IT IS NOT GOING TO FLY WITH MOST PEOPLE. WE NEED TO LOOK AT BETTER WAYS TO ENGAGE PEOPLE MUCH EARLIER IN THE POLICY DEVELOPMENT PROCESS. THERE ARE SOME RADICAL IDEAS OUT THERE. IN IRELAND, WE HAVE CITIZENS' ASSEMBLIES. THERE ARE SOME PRETTY INTERESTING DEBATES GOING ON IN THEM. IT'S JUST INVOLVING THE PUBLIC MORE ONCE EVERY SORT OF THREE TO FIVE YEARS. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THEY SHOULD PRIORITISE. PRIORITISE SOME KEY AREAS THAT ARE REALLY SIGNIFICANT, AND THAT COULD SHIFT THE DIAL FOR THE WELL-BEING OF NEW ZEALANDERS. IT IS AROUND HEALTH, JOBS AND MENTAL HEALTH FOR OUR CHILDREN FOR GOODNESS SAKE. IF THEY ONLY LOOK AT THOSE THINGS, THEY WILL MAKE TRACTION BECAUSE WE ALL CARE. AND FIX HOUSING, FIX A LOT OF THOSE PROBLEMS EVERYBODY MENTIONS. IF EVERYONE HAS A WARM, DRY, SAFE HOUSE, THE FLOW-ON BENEFITS FROM THAT ARE MASSIVE. CONCENTRATE ON ONE THING AT A TIME. IT'S INTERESTING, WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SORT OF LITTLE DEBATES THAT POLITICIANS ARE HAVING, IT TURNS THEM OFF. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. KIA ORA, THANK YOU. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELL, IT WAS A RAUCOUS WEEK IN THE CHAMBER, CAUSING A USUALLY UNFLAPPABLE SPEAKER TO PUT HIS FOOT DOWN. HERE'S FINN HOGAN WITH THE WEEK THAT WAS, IN WELLINGTON. ELECTION 2023 IS UNDERWAY AND MPS ARE TESTING THEIR LINES OF ATTACK. LOOK AT WASTEFUL GOVERNMENT SPENDING. MAYBE LIKE THE $3M BEING SPENT ON ADVERTISING TELLING KIWIS TO TAKE SHORTER SHOWERS, USE STEAM COOKERS AND UNPLUG THEIR APPLIANCES. MR SPEAKER, I DO BELIEVE THE FINDING MONEY IN WEIRD PLACES IS GOING TO BE THE TITLE OF NATIONAL'S ALTERNATIVE FISCAL PLAN. WHEN THEY DO FINALLY WORK OUT HOW IT IS THEY'RE GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THE PROMISES THAT THEY'RE MAKING. TURNS OUT THEY'RE ALSO TESTING THE SPEAKER'S PATIENCE. SHUT UP. GOODNESS ME. (CHAMBER LAUGHS) YES, ADRIAN RURAWHE WAS CHANNELLING HIS PREDECESSOR AT TIMES. SPEAKER, IT DOESN'T STOP THERE. 50 MILLION WILL BE PROVIDED TO TPK... YEAH, IT DOES STOP THERE, ACTUALLY. (LAUGHS) POOR SPEAKER. IF HE THINKS THIS IS BAD, JUST WAIT TILL ELECTION SEASON REALLY KICKS OFF. FOR HIM, THE YEAR MUST ALREADY BE FEELING... IT'S FAR TOO LONG. AND IN THAT SPIRIT, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. I'M NO EXPERT IN THE KITCHEN, BUT WHAT IS A STEAM COOKER? SOMETHING IN THE BACK OF THE CUPBOARD FROM THE FIFTIES. MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW. I MIGHT DRUM AROUND BACK THERE THIS WEEKEND MAYBE. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND JESSIE PURU. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023