TENA TATOU KATOA. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. ATA MARIE E HOA MA, NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` NICOLA WILLIS ENDED A STANDOUT POLITICAL WEEK BY ` YOU GUESSED IT ` CLARIFYING COMMENTS ABOUT BABIES BY CHRISTOPHER LUXON. SHE JOINS US LIVE. THE FATES OF AUCKLAND'S FLOODED AND RUINED HOMES WILL BE SEALED ON MONDAY ` BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. A SPECIAL REPORT FROM MURIWAI. AND DOES THE U.S. HAVE ALIEN SPACECRAFT? IT'S A STORY THAT HAS SET THE INTERNET ALIGHT THIS WEEK AND IS PROMPTING A CONGRESSIONAL HEARING. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 WELL, FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` THE GOVERNMENT HAS HAD A SHOCKER. THIS WEEK, DOMINATED BY MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD'S TORTUROUS UNRAVELLING OVER HIS AIRPORT SHARES AND HIS PERPLEXING FAILURE TO SELL THEM DESPITE 12 WARNINGS. MICHAEL WOOD WAS TEMPORARILY STOOD DOWN AS TRANSPORT MINISTER FOR FAILING TO DECLARE HE HELD SHARES IN AUCKLAND AIRPORT. 6th OF MARCH 2023 AND 27th OF MARCH 2023. LISTING EVERY OCCASION THE CABINET OFFICE ASKED MICHAEL WOOD WHETHER HE'D SOLD HIS SHARES. THE TOTAL? BY MY COUNT, THE INTERACTION` THERE WERE 12 INTERACTIONS. THIS HAS GONE FROM BAD TO LUDICROUS. I HAVE A 13-YEAR-OLD SON. SOMETIMES I HAVE TO ASK HIM FIVE OR SIX TIMES TO PICK HIS TOWEL UP OFF THE FLOOR. BUT A DOZEN TIMES? I THINK, LIKE EVERYBODY, I CAN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE. THEY'RE MAJOR ERRORS ON MY PART, AND I DEEPLY, DEEPLY REGRET THEM. HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU TOLD 12 TIMES SOMETHING AND YOU DON'T SELL THE SHARES? IN THE SPACE OF 24 HOURS, WOOD MANAGED TO GET IT DONE. I HAVE SOLD THE SHARES, AND I HAVE ALSO DONATED THE PROCEEDS OF THAT SALE TO CHARITY. THE REGISTRAR OF PECUNIARY INTERESTS LAUNCHED AN INQUIRY. WILL MICHAEL WOOD STILL BE A MINISTER COME THE ELECTION? UM... UH... (STAMMERS) I-I HAVE TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN MICHAEL. WELL, MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD WAS PRE-BOOKED AS OUR LEAD INTERVIEW TODAY, BUT HE PULLED OUT ON THURSDAY. AND AS YOU JUST SAW, HE NOW FACES A PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY INTO HIS FINANCIAL INTERESTS. WITH ME NOW IS NATIONAL DEPUTY LEADER NICOLA WILLIS, WHO HAS LED THE OPPOSITION OVER THIS ISSUE. TENA KOE. WELCOME TO THE NATION. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. $16,000 WORTH OF AIRPORT SHARES ` IT'S HARDLY THE GREATEST FINANCIAL CONSPIRACY OF ALL TIMES, IS IT? NO, WHICH IS WHY WE JUST WONDER ` WHY DIDN'T HE CLEAN IT UP STRAIGHT AWAY? THIS IS A SAGA THAT WENT ON FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS. MICHAEL WOOD HAD 12 INTERACTIONS WITH THE CABINET OFFICE, WHO ARE PRETTY SERIOUS PEOPLE, WHO WANTED HIM TO CLEAN IT UP, AND HE DIDN'T. IT'S INEXPLICABLE, REALLY. YEAH. LIKE, I... WE ALL AGREE THAT NO ONE, LET ALONE MICHAEL WOOD, CAN EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHY HE DIDN'T SELL THE SHARES, BUT SHOULD IT REALLY STOP HIM FROM BEING A MINISTER? WELL, I THINK THE ISSUE IS ACTUALLY ABOUT HIS HONESTY, BECAUSE WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT HE HAD THESE INTERACTIONS WHERE HE WAS COMMITTING TO DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE SHARES, AND HE DIDN'T. IT'S ALSO ABOUT HIS ADHERENCE TO THE RULES. YOU KNOW, THE CABINET RULES ARE THERE, ACTUALLY, TO PROTECT MINISTERS SO THAT THEY CAN SAY, 'I'VE DECLARED MY CONFLICTS OF INTEREST; 'THE CABINET OFFICE IS SATISFIED I'M MANAGING THEM WELL - 'IT'S ALL IN ORDER.' BUT BY NOT DOING WHAT THEY TOLD HIM TO DO, HE EXPOSED HIMSELF, HE EXPOSED THE PRIME MINISTER, AND HE EXPOSED THE CABINET AS A WHOLE. IS THIS JUST A BLIP, REALLY, THOUGH? BECAUSE DOES IT REALLY PERTAIN TO HIS OVERALL RESPONSIBILITY AS AN IMMIGRATION MINISTER AND A TRANSPORT MINISTER IN THE BROADER` BROADER SORT OF AREA OF THOSE PORTFOLIOS? IT GOES TO TRUST. THE PRIME MINISTER NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THAT HIS MINISTERS ARE PLAYING WITHIN THE RULES AND THAT WHEN THEY MAKE COMMITMENTS, THEY WILL KEEP THEM, AND SO HAVING THIS ONGOING SAGA WITH THE CABINET OFFICE SUGGESTS THAT IN SOME WAY, MICHAEL DIDN'T THINK THE RULES APPLIED TO HIM. AND TO TELL THE PRIME MINISTER YOU'RE GONNA SORT IT OUT AND THEN NOT ` THAT'S PRETTY SERIOUS. THESE KINDS OF ISSUES ABOUT PECUNIARY INTERESTS RAISE THEIR HEAD EVERY NOW AND THEN. I MEAN, IT HAPPENED WITH JOHN KEY WHEN HE WAS A BACKBENCHER ` HE HAD SHARES IN TRANZ RAIL WHEN HE WAS ASKING ABOUT RAIL PROJECTS. HE LATER BECAME PRIME MINISTER. SO THEY'RE A BLIP, REALLY, ON THE ROAD BUMP` ON THE ROADWAY. WELL, SEE, HERE'S THE THING ` I HAVE ENORMOUS SYMPATHY FOR THE FACT THAT MINISTERS AND MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT ARE HUMAN BEINGS WHO WILL MAKE ERRORS FROM TIME TO TIME; THERE WILL BE ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES THAT DON'T GO QUITE RIGHT. SO THERE YOU GO. SO WHEN YOU MUCK UP, FESS UP. IT'S THE PUTTING-RIGHT THAT COUNTS. AND THE DIFFERENT THING WITH M` HE HAS PUT IT RIGHT NOW. NO, HE TOOK TWO AND A HALF YEARS, SIMON. WHY WAS IT THAT THIS WEEK IT TOOK HIM TWO DAYS TO SELL THE SHARES, BUT FOR THE PAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS, DESPITE MULTIPLE WARNINGS FROM THE CABINET OFFICE... OK. ...DESPITE MULTIPLE INTERACTIONS ON IT, HE DIDN'T CLEAN IT UP. THAT'S THE REALITY. ALL RIGHT. POLITICALLY, THIS HAS BEEN A FREE HIT FOR NATIONAL. IT'S NOT THE FIRST BEEN SERVED UP BY A LABOUR MINISTER, GRANTED, THIS YEAR. YOU WOULD EXPECT A POLLING BUMP FROM THIS, BUT THE RACE IS REALLY SUPER TIGHT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY NATIONAL ISN'T DOING BETTER. WELL, THIS, I THINK, GOES TO COMPETENCE. AND WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO SEE RIGHT NOW... SURE, SO WHY IS ISN'T NATIONAL DOING BETTER IF IT'S ABOUT COMPETENCE? WELL, I THINK WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS WANT TO SEE IS SOLUTIONS TO THE MASSIVE PROBLEMS FACING OUR COUNTRY. AND THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE FACING OUR COUNTRY ARE A RECORD COST OF LIVING, LAW AND ORDER OUT OF CONTROL, HOSPITAL SYSTEM CRISIS... YEAH. ALL OF THOSE. ...SCHOOLS WHEN KIDS AREN'T ATTENDING, AND WHAT I WANT TO BE DOING EACH WEEK, SINCERELY, IS TALKING ABOUT THOSE ISSUES. AND THIS WEEK, AS MUCH AS WE WERE PROSECUTING MICHAEL WOOD ` IT'S OUR ROLE AS THE OPPOSITION` OK. I WASN'T GETTING TO TALK ABOUT THOSE ISSUES. WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. I'D MUCH PREFER TO TALK ABOUT THEM. SO IF THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT YOU BELIEVE THE ELECTORATE WANTS TO HEAR ABOUT, WHY ISN'T CHRISTOPHER LUXON, WHO'S ON 17% TO 18% PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER, NOT AHEAD OF CHRIS HIPKINS ON ALL THESE THINGS? I MEAN, THIS IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR NATIONAL, AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND. IS HE DRAGGING THE POLLING DOWN? NO, I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK WHAT THIS COMES BACK TO, AS I SAY, IS NEW ZEALANDERS DESPERATELY WANT TO HEAR SOLUTIONS TO THE COUNTRY'S PROBLEMS. SO THE GOAL THAT WE HAVE IN THE NATIONAL PARTY IS TO TAKE OPPORTUNITIES TO COMMUNICATE HOW WE THINK WE CAN FIX THOSE ISSUES, SO THAT'S WHAT OUR CAMPAIGN IS ALL ABOUT. SO` OK. SURE. WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THAT OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS. THE ONLY COMPARISON I HAVE, REALLY, IS ` AGAIN ` JOHN KEY, WHO, FOUR MONTHS OUT FROM THE 2008 ELECTION, WAS ON ABOUT 38% APPROVED PRIME MINISTER RATINGS. YOU KNOW, JOHN` CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS NOWHERE NEAR THAT. WELL, LOOK` THAT MUST BE DISAPPOINTING. BUT WHAT DETERMINES THE SHAPE OF THE GOVERNMENT IS OUR PARTY VOTE, AND WHAT WE CAN SEE FROM NEW ZEALANDERS ` THAT THEY HEAR OUR MESSAGE; THEY WANT A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT; THEY DO THINK THE COUNTRY'S GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. AND OUR JOB IS TO GROW OUR SUPPORT TO DO THAT. OUR CAUCUS KNOW THAT CHRIS LUXON WILL MAKE AN EXCELLENT PRIME MINISTER. RIGHT. I MEET PEOPLE EVERY WEEK WHO AGREE WITH US AND WHO KNOW THAT HE HAS WHAT IT TAKES. HE'LL HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THINGS DONE, TO SORT OUT THE ECONOMY, TO GET THIS PLACE GOING. OK, ALL RIGHT, I-I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE BACKING CHRISTOPHER LUXON LIKE THAT, BUT YOU'VE BEEN UPFRONT THIS WEEK, AND YOU'VE SORT OF LED THE RESPONSE TO MICHAEL WOOD, BUT WITHIN YOUR OWN PARTY, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE THE PERSON THAT SORT OF MOPS UP AND CLARIFIES STATEMENTS BY CHRISTOPHER LUXON. I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY AT ALL. CAN I JUST TELL YOU A VERY`? WELL, I CAN. LIKE, THERE'S` LIKE, THE PRESCRIPTION ISSUE, RIGHT, ON CONTRACEPTION ` THAT'S ONE ISSUE WHERE YOU CAME OUT AND SAID, 'OH, WE'RE LOOKING AT DOING SOME PARTICULAR KIND OF POLICY.' AND THEN AGAIN, THIS WEEK, YOU KNOW, THE JOKE ABOUT WHETHER PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE MORE BABIES BECAUSE OF THE DECLINING POPULATION ` ONCE AGAIN, IT'S YOU COMING OUT AND CLARIFYING. SHOULD IT BE YOU? WELL, LOOK, IT COMES DOWN TO A VERY MECHANICAL THING, SIMON, WHICH IS THAT ON THURSDAYS, CHRIS LUXON ` JUST AS CHRIS HIPKINS DOES ` MAKES SURE THAT HE IS TRAVELLING AROUND THE COUNTRY SO HE'S MEETING WITH REAL VOTERS. SO IT MEANS ON THURSDAY, I'M THE PERSON WHO WALKS DOWN TO PARLIAMENT AND DOES QUESTION TIME. WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT I FACE QUESTIONS ON WHAT WE CALL THE TILES FROM THE PRESS GALLERY, AND IT'S JUST HAPPENED THAT ON THE PAST COUPLE OF THURSDAYS... OK. AND SURELY WHEN YOU'RE` ...I'VE ENDED UP ANSWERING QUESTIONS ABOUT ISSUES. WHEN YOU'RE FRONTING THERE, SURELY THE LAST THING YOU WISH TO BE DOING IS CLARIFYING OR MOPPING UP SOMETHING THAT YOUR LEADER HAS SAID SOMEWHERE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY. WELL, I DO WISH THAT THIS WEEK, JOURNALISTS WERE ASKING ME ABOUT CHRIS LUXON'S INFRASTRUCTURE POLICY WHICH HE ANNOUNCED TO GET THINGS BUILT AGAIN IN NEW ZEALAND. INSTEAD, SOME OF THEM CHOSE TO FOCUS ON HOW JOKE HE MADE IN JEST, TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT, MISCONSTRUE IT AND, IN ONE CASE, LIKEN IT TO A HITLER POLICY. I DO REGRET THAT. I THINK THAT'S WRONG SO YOU THINK THAT` YOU THINK CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS BEEN TREATED UNJUSTLY? BUT ACTUALLY, IT IS MY JOB` I THINK IT'S MY JOB TO FACE QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS, IT'S CHRIS LUXON'S JOB TO FACE QUESTIONS FROM JOURNALISTS, BUT I THINK NEW ZEALANDERS WOULD MUCH PREFER WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES, NOT OFFHAND REMARKS. BUT IS`? OK. BUT IS IT`? WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES WITH WOMEN THAT` IT SEEMS LIKE CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS` SEEMS TO BE TARGETED AT THE MOMENT, OR IS STRUGGLING. I MEAN, WHY ISN'T HE RESONATING? LOOK, I THINK THAT HE DOES RESONATE WITH MANY WOMEN. I THINK OUR JOB, AS ALWAYS, IS TO COMMUNICATE WITH WOMEN HOW OUR POLICIES AND OUR LEADERSHIP WILL MAKE THEIR LIVES, THEIR FAMILIES' LIVES, THEIR COMMUNITIES'' LIVES BETTER, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO BE FOCUSED ON. POLLING ` ADMITTEDLY, DONE FROM MARCH ` BY ROY MORGAN SHOWED THAT 52% OF WOMEN FAVOUR A LABOUR-GREENS COALITION, AND 52% OF MEN FAVOUR A NATIONAL-ACT. IS NATIONAL FAILING TO CONNECT AND BRING THOSE WOMEN OVER THE LINE BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THAT MANY WOMEN ON THE FRONT BENCH? I MEAN, THERE'S YOU AND THERE'S THREE OTHERS. OH, WE'VE GOT INCREDIBLE WOMEN IN THE NATIONAL PARTY TEAM. BUT WOULD I LIKE TO SEE MORE WOMEN SUPPORTING OUR PARTY? ABSOLUTELY. WHEN I LOOK DOWN OUR FRONT BENCH AND I SEE ME, I SEE ERICA STANFORD, I SEE LOUISE UPSTON ` WE'VE GOT REAL TALENT. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE DEPTH. I THINK WE DO HAVE DEPTH, BECAUSE... DEPTH IN NUMBERS. ...I KNOW THE CANDIDATES THAT ARE COMING THROUGH; I KNOW THE MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT THAT CONTRIBUTE HUGELY TO OUR TEAM; I LOOK AT OUR PRESIDENT, SYLVIA WOOD; I LOOK AT` OK, SO THIS IS NOT A CONCERN FOR YOU, LEADING INTO THE ELECTION, THAT YOU MAY HAVE TROUBLE RESONATING WITH WOMEN? AS I'VE SAID, DO I WANT TO GROW THE WOMEN VOTE? ABSOLUTELY, YES, I DO. AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE FOCUSED ON. AND DO THINK YOU CAN DO THAT WITH CHRISTOPHER LUXON AS LEADER? YES, I DO. LET'S TALK ABOUT BIPARTISAN POLITICS. FIELD DAY'S COMING UP THIS WEEK; IS NATIONAL GOING TO USE THAT TO PULL OUT OF THE BIPARTISANSHIP AGREEMENT HE WAKA EKE NOA? WELL, WE WILL BE USING IT TO MAKE POLICY ANNOUNCEMENTS, AND I HOPE THAT YOU WILL COVER THEM AND THAT THE JOURNALISTS WILL BE VERY INTERESTED IN THEM, BECAUSE WE SEE FARMING... BUT YOU'VE` YEAH? ...AS CRITICAL TO NEW ZEALAND'S FUTURE. FARMERS PAY A LOT OF BILLS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE'RE ALSO A COUNTRY THAT FARMS MORE SUSTAINABLY, WITH MORE CARBON EFFICIENCY THAN JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD, SO WE SHOULD BE BACKING FARMERS TO DO THAT. ALL RIGHT. SO THAT'S STATUS QUO, REALLY. THAT'S NOT HE WAKA EKE NOA. THAT IS STATUS QUO, ISN'T IT, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE SAYING YOU'RE GOING TO PULL OUT; YOU THINK IT'S DEAD IN THE WATER? I'M NOT TELLING YOU WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE SAYING ABOUT EMISSIONS POLICY, BUT, YES, WE ARE GOING TO BE MAKING FURTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS ABOUT EMISSIONS POLICY, BECAUSE WE SHARE, I THINK, WHAT IS THE VIEW OF MANY NEW ZEALANDERS, WHICH IS HOW FARMERS NEED TO STAY LEADING IN THE WORLD AS BEING SUSTAINABLE AND EFFICIENT, AND THAT'S GOING TO MEAN IN THE FUTURE LESS METHANE FROM THEIR ANIMALS... RIGHT. SO THERE IS... ...AND SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY WILL PLAY A HUGE ROLE THERE. ...AN EMISSION REDUCTIONS POLICY. BUT THE GOVERNMENT ARGUES THAT YOUR POSITION WOULD MEAN THAT IT MIGHT HARM THESE NATIONAL REPUTATIONAL FARMERS, AND THERE IS A GROWING MARKET FOR LOW-EMISSION PRODUCTS. DO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING THERE? ARE YOU GOING TO HARM FARMERS BY DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS? WELL, THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T KNOW WHAT OUR POSITION IS YET. LET'S JUST TAKE A STEP BACK AND REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED HERE. THE GOVERNMENT SAID THEY WANTED TO WORK WITH THE FARMING SECTOR TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION FOR AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS. THE SECTOR, IN GOOD FAITH, BOUGHT AN AGREEMENT TO THE TABLE, AND THE GOVERNMENT SAID, 'OH, WE DON'T LIKE IT. 'WE WANNA PUSH YOU FURTHER ` WE WANT TO CHANGE IT.' AND THAT'S WHAT'S ACTUALLY LED THAT ACCORD TO BREAK APART. RIGHT. SO` IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONAL; IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT MANAGED THAT NEGOTIATION AND THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FARMING SECTOR. WELL, LET'S TALK ANOTHER BIPARTISAN POLICY, AND THAT'S HOUSING. SO, IN 2021, YOU STOOD UP NEXT TO LABOUR AND SAID THAT LABOUR AND NATIONAL ARE STANDING TOGETHER TO ALLOW HOUSING IN OUR BACKYARDS. THAT'S BEEN FLIPPED ON ITS HEAD. THAT WAS SORT OF MATURE BIPARTISAN POLITICS AT THE TIME. ARE YOU SORT OF CONCERNED THAT THAT'S BEEN TIPPED ON ITS HEAD? BECAUSE IT SEEMS YOU WERE UP FRONT AND CENTRE FOR THAT ONE. WELL, NO, BECAUSE I'M CONFIDENT THAT ACTUALLY, THERE REMAINS AGREEMENT ACROSS PARLIAMENT ` WHICH HADN'T OCCURRED BEFORE ` THAT THE REAL WAY TO ADDRESS NEW ZEALAND'S HOUSING ISSUES IS TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR CONSENTING RULES AND OUR LAND-ZONING RULES ALLOW FOR MORE HOUSING. NOW, PREVIOUSLY, PRIOR TO THAT AGREEMENT, THAT HAD NOT BEEN THE CONVERSATION. THE CONVERSATION HAD BEEN ABOUT PEOPLE WITH CHINESE-SOUNDING NAMES; IT HAD BEEN ABOUT KIWIBUILD; IT HAD BEEN ABOUT THESE POLICIES... YEAH. THAT WAS GREAT. ...THAT DEMONSTRABLY HADN'T WORKED. THAT'S BIPARTISAN POLITICS. SO IT'S GONE NOW, HASN'T IT? WELL, NO. THERE IS NOW A CONSENSUS ACROSS PARLIAMENT THAT WHAT'S AT ISSUE IS CONSENT` SO IT SERVED ITS PURPOSE? RIGHT. ...IS CONSENTING RULES. NATIONAL HAS SAID, 'WELL, WE THINK THAT WE CAN BUILD ON WHAT'S THERE. 'WE'VE GOT A POLICY THAT ENHANCES THE STATUS QUO.' OK. IN FACT, YOU'LL FIND IT'S VERY SIMILAR TO THE POLICY THAT WE INITIALLY SUGGESTED TO LABOUR, AND WE'RE CONFIDENT IT WILL LEAD TO MORE HOUSES BEING BUILT IN NEW ZEALAND. FINALLY ` THE PARTY CONFERENCE IS COMING UP IN TWO WEEKS. WILL THE ELECTORATE FINALLY GET TO SEE YOUR TAX PLAN AND HOW YOU'RE GOING TO PAY FOR THOSE TAX CUTS? I CAN ASSURE YOU, SIMON, THAT I'M VERY MUCH LOOKING FORWARD TO ` PRIOR TO THE ELECTION, AND EVEN PRIOR TO THE PRE-ELECTION FISCAL UPDATE ` RELEASING OUR FULL TAX PLAN` PRIOR TO`? SO YOU COMMIT TO DOING THAT BEFORE THE PRE-ELECTION UPDATE? YES, I DO MAKE THAT COMMITMENT. AND THAT TAX PLAN WILL SET OUT NOT ONLY HOW WE'RE GOING TO PHASE IN OUR TAX COMMITMENTS; IT'LL SET OUT WHAT EXACT ITEMS WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE WASTING NEW ZEALANDERS' MONEY ON SO THAT WE CAN ALLOW THEM TO KEEP THEIR OWN MONEY. BUT THEY WON'T BE AT THE CONFERENCE, WILL THEY? WELL, THE CONFERENCE, I WANT TO TELL YOU... YES? ...IS GOING TO BE VERY POSITIVE, VERY POLICY-FOCUSED; IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT SOLUTIONS TO NEW ZEALANDERS PROBLEMS. LABOUR'S CONFERENCE WAS ALL ABOUT NATIONAL. (CHUCKLES) SO NO ATTACK POLITICS AT THE CONFERENCE? OK. WE'RE GONNA MAKE OUR CONFERENCE ALL ABOUT NEW ZEALAND. OH, LOOK, WE WILL POINT OUT... I'M SURE YOU WILL. ...THAT THEIR CURRENT POLICIES ARE NOT DELIVERING FOR PEOPLE. (CHUCKLES) OK. YOU CAN BE ASSURED OF THAT. BUT WE WANT TO FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS. NICOLA WILLIS, DEPUTY NATIONAL PARTY LEADER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL, SIMON WILSON, ELLA HENRY AND HEATHER ROY. AND THE FATES OF AUCKLAND'S FLOODED AND RUINED HOMES WILL BE SEALED ON MONDAY ` BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. A SPECIAL REPORT FROM MURIWAI. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. MONDAY MAY BRING HOPE FOR HUNDREDS OF FLOOD-AFFECTED AUCKLANDERS. 400 HOUSEHOLDS WILL BE TOLD WHETHER THEIR RUINED HOUSES QUALIFY FOR A GOVERNMENT BUY-OUT. BUT THERE'S NO CERTAINTY FOR THE RESIDENTS OF MURIWAI, ON THE WEST COAST. ABOUT 100 HOMES HAVE BEEN RED-STICKERED THERE DUE TO LANDSLIDES, AND THE OWNERS HAVE BEEN TOLD THERE'S NO TIME-FRAME FOR BUY-OUT DECISIONS. THE PHYSICAL SCARS ARE CONFRONTING ` SO TOO THE MEMORIES OF THE NIGHT THAT CYCLONE GABRIELLE HIT MURIWAI. WHEN THE LIGHTS WENT OUT, WE HEARD A NOISE LIKE AN AIRCRAFT COMING OVER THE TOP OF THE HOUSE. THE NOISE WAS EXTRAORDINARY. THE NOISE WAS JUST... LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D SEE IN A FILM. IF YOU WERE IN A WAR FILM AND THERE WAS A PLANE COMING OVER THE TOP OF THE HOUSE AND IT WAS ABOUT A METRE ABOVE AND IT WAS ABOUT TO DROP A BOMB ON YOUR FRONT LAWN ` YEAH. THAT WAS THE NOISE. THAT EVENING, TWO VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS DIED AND A CLOSE-KNIT COMMUNITY WAS DEVASTATED. ABOUT 100 HOMES WERE RED-STICKERED, INCLUDING MARIA AND ABE'S. IRONICALLY, THEIR HOUSE WAS UNSCATHED, BUT THE NEIGHBOUR'S HOUSE AND HILLSIDE HAD COME CRASHING DOWN, MAKING ABE'S UNLIVEABLE. THAT HOUSE WAS OUR NEIGHBOUR'S PROPERTY, WHICH WAS ABOUT 50m OR SO` 60m FURTHER UP THE HILL, AND ESSENTIALLY, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TONS OF SOIL AND WATER AND TREES JUST WIPED IT OFF THE LAND. INSIDE, ABE'S HOUSE IS UNTOUCHED ` A FAMILY HOME STRIPPED OF ITS BELONGINGS BUT NOT ITS MEMORIES. 24 YEARS OF SUNSETS THAT WE'VE ENJOYED ON THIS DECK... WOW. ...RAISING FOUR KIDS. ALL THEIR WHENUA ARE BURIED ON OUR LAND. MARIA, ABE AND THEIR FOUR CHILDREN NEVER THOUGHT THEY MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE. THE YOUNGEST, BEDE, MISSES HIS HOME. ANNOYING. AND SAD. AND SAD? WHY IS IT SAD? WELL, BECAUSE YOU... LIKE, DON'T HAVE A PROPER HOME, AND... YEAH. FAIR ENOUGH. MM. YOU MIGHT HAVE TO SAY GOODBYE TO THIS VIEW AND TO THIS HOUSE...? COMPLETELY. IT'S HEARTBREAKING? YOU CAN'T IN ALL CONSCIENCE RAISE A FAMILY OF FOUR KIDS IN A PLACE WHICH COULD FALL ON TOP OF THEM AT A MOMENT'S NOTICE. AND IF YOU'RE TERRIFIED OF THE RAIN, YOU CAN'T LIVE IN THE WEST COAST. IT'S NOT JUST THE COAST WHERE AUCKLANDERS ARE AFRAID OF THE RAIN. BUT THAT WAS WHERE THE WATER` SORT OF THE SETTLEMENT MARK FOR THE FIRST FLOOD WAS. JUST UNDER THE GUTTER? JUST UNDER THE GUTTER THERE. CAMERON DICK WAS IN HIS HENDERSON HOME AS THE AUCKLAND ANNIVERSARY FLOODS HIT. THE WAIKUMETE STREAM BROKE ITS STOPBANK. WE CAN SORT OF SEE THAT IT WAS ROUGHLY ABOUT CHEST HEIGHT, SO IT WAS ABOUT 1.5 INSIDE. SO WE WERE ACTUALLY IN THE HOUSE ` WELL, STUPIDLY, IN THE HOUSE... REALLY? ...TRYING TO GET BITS AND PIECES OUT STILL. THE WATER WAS UP TO THERE ON YOU? AND THE WATER'S UP TO THERE. THE WATER ROSE SO HIGH THIS SPA POOL WAS CARRIED AWAY. CAMERON'S HOUSE WAS RED-STICKERED AND STRIPPED BARE. HE HAS INSURANCE, BUT THAT'S NO DEFENCE WHEN THE FLOODS KEEP COMING. FOUR TIMES SINCE JANUARY, OR LATE JANUARY, SO IT'S FOUR TIMES IN FOUR MONTHS, ROUGHLY. IT'S PRETTY... HORRIFIC. IS THERE ANY WAY YOU COULD LIVE IN THIS HOUSE AGAIN? IF I HAD TO, YOU'D PROBABLY SAY YES, COS IT'S BETTER THAN TAKING A LOSS, BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE MITIGATED TO THE POINT OF` COUNCIL WOULD HAVE TO GIVE US THE UTMOST ASSURANCE THAT THEY WERE DOING EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO ACTUALLY DIVERT WATER AWAY. BUT CAMERON MIGHT BE LUCKY. HE'S HOPING HE MIGHT BE ONE OF THE FORTUNATE 400 WHO QUALIFY FOR A GOVERNMENT OFFER WHEN THEY'RE ANNOUNCED ON MONDAY. AT LEAST START THE CONVERSATION AROUND A BUY-OUT. WE'RE NOT EXPECTING IT TO BE A MASSIVE HOME RUN WHEN WE GET A FIRST` IF WE GET A BUY-OUT OPPORTUNITY. SO IT'D STILL BE A LONG WAY TO GO IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATING, BUT OBVIOUSLY, A BUY-OUT AT MARKET VALUE WOULD BE WHAT WE THINK IS FAIR AND REASONABLE. BUT NOT EVERYONE WILL THINK IT'S FAIR. I'D SAY COME MONDAY, THERE'S GONNA BE QUITE A... EITHER A LOT OF HAPPY PEOPLE OR A LOT OF UNHAPPY PEOPLE, DEPENDING ON WHAT SITUATION WE'VE BEEN PUT INTO FROM THERE. IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT SITUATION FOR THE PEOPLE OF MURIWAI. THEY'RE ALSO EXPECTING A LETTER. I EXPECT THAT THAT LETTER WILL SAY THAT WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL... AUGUST, SEPTEMBER, UNTIL THE GEOTECHNICAL ASSESSMENT HAS BEEN DONE, BEFORE THE PROCESS OF CATEGORISATION AND CONSULTATION CAN BEGIN. THAT MEANS NO CHANCE OF CERTAINTY ANYTIME SOON. CENTRAL GOVERNMENT'S GONNA BE BREAKING UP FOR THE ELECTION, SO COUNCIL CAN'T TALK TO GOVERNMENT ABOUT HOW TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM PROBABLY UNTIL DECEMBER. MARIA AND ABE ARE ALSO CAUGHT IN A TRICKY INSURANCE SITUATION. SINCE THEIR HOUSE WAS UNTOUCHED, NO PAY-OUT; BUT IT'S BEEN RED-STICKERED, SO THEY CAN'T LIVE IN IT. AND SINCE THE LANDSLIP WAS NOT NEAR THEIR HOUSE ` NO PAYOUT FROM THE EARTHQUAKE COMMISSION EITHER. SO IN REALITY, A MANAGED RETREAT BUY-OUT IS THE ONLY OPTION? IT'S THE ONLY OPTION. IF THEY CAN'T` IF COUNCIL CAN'T REMEDIATE THE LAND TO ENABLE PEOPLE TO RETURN TO THEIR HOUSES, THEN MANAGED RETREAT'S THE ONLY OPTION. WHILE THEY WAIT FOR A DECISION, THEY ALSO WORRY FOR THE COMMUNITY. IT'S RESILIENT, IT'S RALLIED, SET UP A TRUST, A WEBSITE AND SOCIAL MEDIA TO KEEP UP THE PUBLIC PRESSURE. THOUGHT WE MIGHT GET STUCK AT HOME WITH NO POWER. OH MY GOD. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW VEGETABLES COULD DO THAT. BUT NOW THE AFFECTED RESIDENTS ARE RUNNING OUT OF MONEY. WELL, THEY'VE BEEN MONTHS WITHOUT ANY KIND OF INCOME SUPPORT, AND THEY'LL BE PAYING RENT AND MORTGAGES, AND THAT'S GONNA PUSH LOCAL FAMILIES ` MANY OF THEM ` JUST OVER THE EDGE, WITH PROPERTIES THEY CAN'T SELL AND PROPERTIES THAT THEY CAN'T BE MORTGAGEED OUT OF EITHER BECAUSE THE BANKS CAN'T GET RID OF THEM, WHICH IS HORRIFIC. HORRIFIC. YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY TRICKY SITUATION FOR THEM. THEY'RE WAITING FOR GEO-TECH TO BE DONE, AND THEY'RE JUST STUCK, WAITING. YEAH, AND IT HAS ALREADY BEEN MONTHS AND MONTHS IN LIMBO, HASN'T IT, THAT UNCERTAINTY? AND OBVIOUSLY THEY CAN'T MOVE ON YET. NO. NO. AND THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF MONEY AS WELL, IN TERMS OF RENTING ANOTHER PLACE. YEAH, IT'S A REALLY TRICKY SITUATION. WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THERE. A MURI AKE NEI ` THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HAS ANNOUNCED IT WILL INVESTIGATE WHISTLE-BLOWER CLAIMS THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS NON-HUMAN SPACECRAFT. AWARD-WINNING AUSTRALIAN JOURNALIST ROSS COULTHARD, WHO HAS BEEN COVERING THE STORY ` HE IS AFTER THE BREAK. THIS WEEK, A STORY ABOUT UFOs HAS LIT UP CORNERS OF THE INTERNET. A FORMER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL TURNED WHISTLE-BLOWER IS ALLEGING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS 'INTACT AND PARTIALLY INTACT CRAFT 'OF NON-HUMAN ORIGIN'. DAVID GRUSCH MADE THE EXPLOSIVE CLAIMS IN AN INTERVIEW WITH AWARD-WINNING AUSTRALIAN JOURNALIST ROSS COULTHARD. ...THE SO-CALLED FLYING SAUCERS. NOW CALLED UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA ` UAPs. NASA BELIEVES THAT THE STUDY OF UNIDENTIFIED ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA REPRESENTS AN EXCITING STEP FORWARD IN OUR QUEST TO UNCOVER THE MYSTERIES OF THE WORLD AROUND US. WE'RE DEFINITELY NOT ALONE. ABSOLUTELY, THE DATA POINTS EMPIRICALLY THAT WE'RE NOT ALONE, YEAH. YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST TRUSTED FORMER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS IN THE U.S DEFENCE AND INTELLIGENCE ESTABLISHMENT. YES, I WAS. UAP TASK FORCE WAS REFUSED ACCESS TO A BROAD CRASH RETRIEVAL PROGRAMME. THESE ARE RETRIEVING NON-HUMAN-ORIGIN TECHNICAL VEHICLES ` YOU KNOW, CALL IT SPACECRAFT, IF YOU WILL ` NON-HUMAN EXOTIC-ORIGIN VEHICLES THAT HAVE EITHER LANDED OR CRASHED. THE GOVERNMENT HAS RELEASED VIDEOS ` THEY'VE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT SOME OF THIS STUFF IS OUT THERE THAT WE HAVE ON CAMERA. REPORTER: WE'VE NOT SEEN OR VERIFIED THE ALLEGED PROOF HE SAYS HE'S PROVIDED TO INVESTIGATORS. HE ALSO TELLS US HE'S NOT SEEN PHOTOS OF THE ALLEGED CRAFT HIMSELF BUT HAS TALKED EXTENSIVELY WITH OTHER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS WHO HAVE. BECAUSE EVERYBODY WATCHING THIS RIGHT NOW IS LOOKING AT YOUR FACE. MM-HM. THEY'RE GOING, 'IS THIS GUY FOR REAL?' I AM FOR REAL. AND THEY ARE EXPLOSIVE CLAIMS, WHICH ARE, SO FAR, UNVERIFIED, SO WE ASKED AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST ROSS COULTHARD WHO DAVID GRUSCH IS AND WHY WE SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM. MR GRUSCH IS, UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR MILITARY INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS IN THE U.S. MILITARY. HE OPERATED AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF DEFENCE INTELLIGENCE. WHEN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WANTED HIS PRESIDENTIAL DAILY BRIEFING ` WHICH IS THE INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING THAT'S PREPARED FOR THE PRESIDENT ` IT WAS DAVID GRUSCH WHO WAS INVOLVED IN PUTTING IT TOGETHER FOR THE NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE, THE NATIONAL GEOSPATIAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AND HE OFTEN HAND-COURIERED THAT SUPER-SECRET, TOP-SECRET INTELLIGENCE TO THE WEST WING OF THE WHITE HOUSE. HE WAS TRUSTED WITH THE BIGGEST SECRETS IN THE U.S. WELL, THIS MUST BE ONE OF THEM, OR COUNTED AMONG ONE OF THEM. HE HAS BEEN ON THE RECORD, ROSS, AS WELL, AND UNDER OATH TESTIFYING THAT THE U.S. HAS FOUND 'CRASHED NON-HUMAN SPACECRAFT' IS HOW HE DESCRIBES IT AND THAT THERE ARE THESE REVERSE ENGINEERING PROGRAMMES OPERATING WITHIN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. I KNOW IT SOUNDS INCREDIBLE, AND I FELT THE SAME WAY WHEN I STARTED LOOKING AT THIS AS A JOURNALIST. I STARTED OUT WRITING MY BOOK 'IN PLAIN SIGHT' ABOUT TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO, AND I COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WOULD BE SUCH A THING THAT COULD BE CAPABLE OF BEING KEPT SECRET INSIDE THE U.S., WHICH, NOTORIOUSLY, LEAKS LIKE A SIEVE. BUT VERY, VERY SOON, I STARTED STUMBLING, AS A JOURNALIST, ACROSS PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE PROGRAMME, PEOPLE WHO EVENTUALLY LED ME TO MR GRUSCH. AND I'M MORE THAN SATISFIED BECAUSE OF THE CORROBORATION THAT I'VE GOT FROM OTHER SOURCES, PEOPLE STILL INSIDE THE SO-CALLED 'PROGRAMME' ` WHICH IS THE NAME THAT THEY GIVE, THE EUPHEMISM THAT THEY GIVE FOR PEOPLE WORKING ON THESE REVERSE-ENGINEERED CRAFT ` INCREDIBLE AS IT MAY SOUND, IT'S TRUE. IT DOES SOUND INCREDIBLE. AND EVEN HE, I THINK, SAID THAT... HOW DID HE DESCRIBE IT? HE SAID HE THOUGHT IT WAS 'FANTASTICAL AND CRAZY'. BUT HE NOW BELIEVES THAT THERE IS A SECRET PROGRAMME WITHIN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS THESE SPACECRAFT, AND HE'S BLOWN THE WHISTLE. HE DID. AND IN FACT, WHAT HAPPENED WAS HE WAS THE PERSON CONGRESS` AS A RESULT OF CERTAIN REVELATIONS MADE BY PARTICULARLY THE NEW YORK TIMES, CONGRESS HAD MANDATED THAT THE PENTAGON START BEING MORE TRANSPARENT ON UAPs ` UNIDENTIFIED, ANOMALOUS OR AERIAL PHENOMENA, WHAT WE'D CALL UFOs. AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, HE WAS THE PERSON APPOINTED INSIDE THE DEFENCE DEPARTMENT TO DO THOSE INVESTIGATIONS. AND WHAT HE FOUND WAS THAT HE WAS BEING HINDERED AND STOPPED FROM DOING HIS INVESTIGATIONS. BUT BEFORE HE WAS HINDERED AND STOPPED AND HE TOOK REPRISAL ACTION AND MADE A COMPLAINT TO THE INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, HE ACTUALLY SPOKE TO PEOPLE IN THE PROGRAMME WHO CONFIRMED THE EXISTENCE OF THESE RETRIEVED CRAFT. THEY TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THE LOCATIONS OF THESE CRAFT, AND THAT'S ALL INFORMATION THAT HE'S PROVIDED UNDER OATH TO THE INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND IT'S NOW BEING INVESTIGATED BY BOTH THE INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AND ALSO BY THE VARIOUS OVERSIGHT COMMITTEES IN THE CONGRESS ` THAT'S THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE AND THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE. AND THESE ARE EXTREMELY POWERFUL COMMITTEES THAT HAVE THE POWER TO CALL WITNESSES AND TO CALL FOR A FULL INVESTIGATION. AND JUST IN THE LAST DAY OR SO, THERE'S BEEN AN ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE AN INQUIRY INTO THESE ALLEGATIONS, BECAUSE CONGRESS IS ALREADY AWARE OF THESE CLAIMS. THERE'S BEEN MULTIPLE WITNESSES COME FORWARD ALREADY. AND I'VE SPOKEN TO BOTH CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS WHO'VE TOLD ME THAT THEY'RE CONVINCED THAT THERE'S SOMETHING TO THIS AND THEY WANT IT FULLY AND PROPERLY INVESTIGATED. YEAH. WELL, IT HAS TO BE NOTED THE PENTAGON'S FORMALLY STATING THAT IT HAS NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE TO DATE OF EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS, BUT IT'S CONFINING ITS ANSWER IN A VERY CAREFUL WAY TO THE BODY INSIDE THE PENTAGON CALLED AARO, WHICH IS THE ALL-DOMAIN ANOMALY RESOLUTION OFFICE, AND THAT'S THE BODY THAT'S TRUSTED TO INVESTIGATE THE PHENOMENON OF UAPs THESE DAYS. YEAH. AND WHAT WE KNOW, AND WHAT THE PENTAGON'S A BIT SHY ABOUT REVEALING, IS THAT AARO DOESN'T HAVE THE SECURITY CLASSIFICATION ` WHAT'S CALLED 'TITLE-50 ACCESS' TO THE REALLY SUPER SECRETS IN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, IT'S BEEN FRUSTRATED AND MAKING A LOT OF ITS INQUIRIES TO VALIDATE MR GRUSCH'S CLAIMS. THAT'S WHY MR GRUSCH HAS TAKEN THIS TO THE INSPECTOR-GENERAL, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S ALSO NOW THE SUBJECT OF INVESTIGATION BY THE CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT COMMITTEES. YEAH, AND I WANT TO TALK MORE TO YOU ABOUT THOSE CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT COMMITTEES IN JUST A SECOND, BUT I SUPPOSE THE MAJOR CRITICISM THAT'S EMERGED IN THE PAST FEW DAYS IS THAT THERE IS STILL NO PROOF, NO PHOTOS AND NO FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT OF HAVING SEEN, UH, THESE SPACECRAFT. YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY FUNNY, REBECCA ` THERE'S A FUNNY DOUBLE STANDARD HERE. IF YOU REMEMBER` I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE AROUND AT THE TIME OF THE LAST GULF WAR; I WAS, AND I WAS BEING BRIEFED BY MEMBERS OF OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY THAT WE SHOULD ACCEPT THE WORD OF SOURCES WHO WERE TELLING US THAT THERE WERE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN THE IRAQI DESERT AND THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS MAKING A NUCLEAR BOMB OR CHEMICAL WEAPONS. IT TURNS OUT THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. SO THE MEDIA WERE QUITE HAPPY TO ACCEPT THE ASSURANCES OF INTELLIGENCE 'SOURCES' AT THE TIME, UNNAMED SOURCES AT THE TIME. HERE, WE HAVE AN ON-RECORD OFFICIAL WHO UNTIL A FEW WEEKS AGO WAS A VERY SENIOR OFFICER IN THE U.S. MILITARY AT A VERY, VERY HIGH LEVEL, HANDLING THE MOST SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE. HE'S SWORN AN OATH TO TELL THE TRUTH. HE'S HAPPILY PREPARED TO GO TO JAIL IF IT CAN BE SHOWN HE'S TOLD A LIE. ALL HE WANTS IS FOR THEM TO CALL HIS BLUFF AND TAKE HIM UP ON PROPERLY INVESTIGATING WHAT HE SAYS IS TRUE. SO I THINK IT'S A BIT RICH FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE THE CLAIM THAT THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH THE FACT THAT HE CAN'T PROVIDE THIS EVIDENCE. HE'S BEEN VERY, VERY UPFRONT ABOUT THAT. HE SAID HE'S NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO REVEAL THE EVIDENCE THAT COULD VALIDATE WHAT HE'S SAYING ` DOCUMENTS, REPORTS, PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HE'S BEEN ALLOWED TO SEE BECAUSE OF HIS SECURITY CLASSIFICATION. WELL, SO` BECAUSE YOU AND I DON'T HAVE A TOP-SECRET CLEARANCE, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE IT. BUT HE'S SAYING THE COMMITTEES IN CONGRESS THAT DO HAVE THOSE CLASSIFICATIONS SHOULD NOW ASK FOR THAT INFORMATION, CALL THOSE WITNESSES AND CONVINCE THEMSELVES WHETHER OR NOT HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH. RIGHT. BECAUSE` AND SO THAT IS WHERE THIS IS NOW HEADING ` TO PROPER CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT. ABSOLUTELY. I'VE SPOKEN TO CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS WHO ARE DETERMINED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS. THERE'S BEEN A REAL SEA-CHANGE SHIFT. AS YOU AND I BOTH KNOW, IN THE MEDIA, FOR YEARS, WE'VE BEEN ACCULTURATED TO THE IDEA THAT UFOs, FLYING SAUCERS, ALIENS, LITTLE GREEN MEN ` IT'S THE STUFF OF HUMOUR; IT'S THE STUFF OF RIDICULE. AND WHAT WE NOW KNOW FROM MR GRUSCH IS THAT THE CIA AND OTHER AGENCIES, THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY OF THE U.S., HAS ACTUALLY RUN A DELIBERATE AND PROBABLY ILLEGAL DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ` TO DISINFORM, TO LIE TO THEM ABOUT THE TRUTH. AND CONSISTENTLY, PRESIDENTS HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD, CONGRESS HAS NOT BEEN TOLD. AND MR GRUSCH IS AN HONOURABLE PATRIOT, I BELIEVE, WHO WANTS THIS INVESTIGATED, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE CONGRESS WHO ARE DETERMINED TO HELP HIM. AND JUST FINALLY ` WE ARE HEARING THAT FIVE EYES PARTNERS WERE BRIEFED BY THE PENTAGON RECENTLY ON THESE UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA, WHICH WOULD INCLUDE AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT? I DO. I KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT AUSTRALIA HAS BEEN INVOLVED THROUGH SOME OF ITS SOLDIERS THAT HAVE BEEN RETAINED BY THE AMERICANS AND BY THE BRITISH ` THERE HAVE BEEN AUSTRALIANS INVOLVED IN ALLEGED CRASH RETRIEVALS, AND THERE'S A SECRET AGREEMENT IN THE FIVE EYES AGREEMENT FOR THE RETRIEVAL OF SO-CALLED 'FOREIGN TECHNOLOGY'. AND IT'S THAT AGREEMENT THAT HAS BEEN USED TO ENABLE COLLABORATION BETWEEN THE FIVE EYES PARTNERS TO ASSIST IN THE RETRIEVAL OF TECHNOLOGY. BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS YOUR PRIME MINISTER HAS NOT BEEN BRIEFED, I DOUBT VERY MUCH THAT MY PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN BRIEFED, AND A LOT OF THIS HAS BEEN KEPT SECRET FROM THE FIVE EYES POLITICIANS. OK, WELL, MUCH MORE TO COME. ROSS COULTHARD, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION. IT'S A REAL PLEASURE. NOW, WE ASKED OUR OWN SECURITY INTELLIGENCE SERVICES MINISTER, ANDREW LITTLE, IF HE HAD BEEN BRIEFED BY THE PENTAGON ON UAPs, AND HE DODGED THE QUESTION, BUT` IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT CANADA'S MILITARY WAS BRIEFED IN A FIVE EYES MEETING IN MAY. BUT HE ALSO WANTED TO TELL US, UM, THAT WHILE HE DOESN'T USUALLY DISCUSS SECURITY ARRANGEMENTS AND ONGOING DIALOGUE WITH THE FIVE EYES PARTNERS, IN THIS CASE HE IS GOING TO MAKE AN EXCEPTION, AND HE SAYS, 'I'VE NEVER BELIEVED IN ALIENS 'AND HAVE SEEN NOTHING IN THIS JOB THAT HAS CHANGED MY MIND.' (CHUCKLES) UM, I HAVE TO SAY THAT'S PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER HEARD A MINISTER CLARIFY HIS POSITION ON ALIENS. YEAH. I HAVE TO SAY I'M NOT SURPRISED. (LAUGHS) NO. BUT IT IS GOOD TO GET THAT ON THE RECORD. CHUCKLES: YEAH. YEAH, IT IS A FASCINATING CASE. YOU KNOW, IT'S` THESE ARE HIGH-LEVEL CLAIMS, BUT THEY ARE UNVERIFIED RIGHT NOW, AND SO... YEAH. YEAH, MUST REMEMBER THAT. ...CONGRESS IS, UH... IS GOING TO TAKE IT UP. FASCINATING. CHUCKLES: OK. E WHAI AKE NEI ` COMING UP ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL, SIMON WILSON, ELLA HENRY AND HEATHER ROY. PLUS ` OUR ELECTORAL LAWS HAVE HAD A RARE REVIEW, BUT WILL ANY OF THE SUGGESTED CHANGES ACTUALLY HAPPEN? HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. WELL, OUR ELECTORAL LAW HAS HAD A ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION REVIEW, WITH A LIST RELEASED THIS WEEK BY AN EXPERT PANEL OF SWEEPING RECOMMENDATIONS. BUT WILL THE CHANGES EVER ENJOY THE LIGHT OF DAY? DEPUTY CHAIR MARIA BARGH, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AND MAORI STUDIES AT VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, JOINS ME NOW IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING. KIA ORA. SO, YOU` SOME SAY THAT THE FIRST RULE OF POLITICS IS, 'IS IT GOING TO HAPPEN?' AND LOOKING AT THE REACTION FROM OUR POLITICAL PARTIES THIS WEEK, YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY PROBABLY NOT WHEN IT COMES TO A LOT OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU'RE` THAT THE REVIEW IS MAKING. WELL, I GUESS OUR FOCUS WAS ON CONDUCTING THE REVIEW, HEARING FROM NEW ZEALANDERS, AND IT WAS REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY. WE HAVE HAD THESE PIECEMEAL CHANGES MADE OVER THE YEARS, BUT OUR TASK WAS TO TAKE THAT COMPREHENSIVE, BIGGER-PICTURE LOOK, THINK, 'WHERE ARE THINGS NOT WORKING?' AND HEAR FROM NEW ZEALANDERS ABOUT WHAT ISN'T WORKING, WHAT IS WORKING WELL. SO THOSE WERE IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS. YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT WE ARE CONSIDERING THOSE ASPECTS ` WHERE CAN THINGS BE FAIRER AND MORE ACCESSIBLE? SO I THINK THAT'S ALL VERY IMPORTANT. ABSOLUTELY. WELL, ONE OF` THE ONLY AREA I COULD HEAR ANY POLITICAL CONSENSUS ON OR, SORT OF, PARTY SUPPORT FOR WAS THIS FOUR-YEAR TERM. SO WHAT WERE YOU HEARING ABOUT THAT FROM PEOPLE DURING THE REVIEW? YEAH. WELL, IN TERMS OF THE TERM, PEOPLE WERE PRETTY, AGAIN, SPLIT ` (CHUCKLES) WE DIDN'T HEAR A LOT OF CONSENSUS ABOUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS. YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THE ARGUMENTS FOR` SOME PEOPLE SUGGESTED THAT IF WE HAVE A LONGER TERM, GOVERNMENTS ARE ABLE TO BETTER IMPLEMENT THEIR POLICIES, HAVE BETTER LAWS; OTHERS WERE SAYING, 'WELL, IF IT'S TOO LONG, 'THEN WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HOLD GOVERNMENTS TO ACCOUNT.' SO WE THOUGHT THE ARGUMENTS CAME DOWN PRETTY EVENLY, AND WE THINK THAT THIS IS A MATTER, AS IT'S ENTRENCHED, THAT NEEDS TO GO TO THE PUBLIC. WE THOUGHT IF POLITICIANS WERE DECIDING ON THIS, IT WOULD PROBABLY BE A BIT LIKE EXTENDING THEIR OWN CONTRACTS, AND REALLY, NEW ZEALANDERS NEED TO HAVE A SAY ON IT. SO WHAT WOULD THE PROCESS FOR THAT BE? IT WOULD HAVE TO GO TO A REFERENDUM, AND PRESUMABLY THAT WOULD BE A DECISION TAKEN BY PARLIAMENT... THIS YEAR, OR`? YOU KNOW, HOW LONG WOULD THAT PROCESS TAKE? CHUCKLES: SO, OUR FOCUS IS ON DELIVERING OUR RECOMMENDATIONS IN OUR REVIEW AT THE END OF NOVEMBER, AND THEN IT WILL BE UP TO THE GOVERNMENT ` THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT AT THAT TIME ` TO MAKE THE NEXT STEPS. RIGHT. SO IT IS HANDED BACK TO THEM. ANOTHER CONTENTIOUS AREA THAT YOU LOOKED AT WAS THE PARTY THRESHOLDS, AND THE GROUP IS RECOMMENDING THE PARTY THRESHOLD BE REDUCED TO 3.5%. WHY IS THAT? SO, WHEN WE LOOKED AT IT, WE THOUGHT THAT 5% WAS HIGHER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE, AND WE DID SOME MODELLING` WHY? WELL, IT MEANS THAT A WHOLE LOT OF SMALLER PARTIES AREN'T ABLE TO GET INTO PARLIAMENT, SO WE HEARD FROM PEOPLE THEY FELT THEY WERE WASTING THEIR VOTES WHEN THEY WERE VOTING FOR THOSE PARTIES. AND MMP IS ABOUT THAT DIVERSITY OF REPRESENTATION. SO WE LOOKED AT 3` WE LOOKED AT A NUMBER OF THRESHOLDS, OBVIOUSLY, BUT TO US, 3.5 STILL STRUCK THAT BALANCE ` THAT'S AROUND 100,000 VOTES, SO STILL RELATIVELY HIGH IN SOME WAYS, BUT WOULD STILL ENCOURAGE SMALLER PARTIES TO COME INTO PARLIAMENT, UM, BUT WOULD MAINTAIN THAT EFFECTIVE AND STABLE GOVERNMENT. IT WOULD REDUCE REPRESENTATION BY SOME OF THE SMALLER PARTIES IN GOVERNMENT, THOUGH, WOULDN'T IT? BECAUSE YOU WOULD REMOVE THE COAT TAIL PROVISION, AND SO THOSE SMALLER PARTIES WOULD BE LESS REPRESENTED. UH, NOT REALLY. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT ` THIS IS WHERE WE'RE SAYING THAT TWO RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE TO GO TOGETHER. SO THAT ONE-ELECTORATE SEAT RULE ` WHERE, IF YOU WIN THE ELECTORATE, YOU CAN BRING SOME OTHER FOLKS IN WITH YOU ` WE THINK HAS TO GO WITH THIS LOWERING OF THE THRESHOLD. YEAH, WE DID SOME MODELLING, AGAIN, OF, UM... THE LAST ELECTION, FOR EXAMPLE ` THAT LOWER THRESHOLD WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED THE COMPOSITION OF PARTIES IN PARLIAMENT, BUT WE STILL THINK IN THE FUTURE IT WILL ENCOURAGE MORE SMALL PARTIES. BUT IT WOULD HAVE CHANGED THE REPRESENTATION OF THE MAORI PARTY, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO HAD ONE ELECTORATE MP AND THEN HAD ANOTHER BROUGHT IN BECAUSE OF THE PARTY VOTE. SO THAT WOULD'VE DIMINISHED THEIR REPRESENTATION AS A SMALLER PARTY IN PARLIAMENT. YEAH. WELL, WHAT WE HEARD FROM PEOPLE, THOUGH, WAS THAT THIS MECHANISM, THEY FELT, WAS UNFAIR ` THAT SOME VOTERS IN SOME ELECTORATES ESSENTIALLY WERE GETTING MORE OF A SAY ABOUT THAT COMPOSITION OF PARLIAMENT THAN OTHER VOTERS IN OTHER ELECTORATES. SO PART OF OUR FOCUS WAS COMING BACK TO THOSE PRINCIPLES ABOUT FAIRNESS, AND SO THAT WAS KEY. YEAH, IT IS TRICKY, ISN'T IT, TO BE`? YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO BE 100% FAIR, I SUPPOSE, ACROSS SOMETHING LIKE A DEMOCRACY. UM, BUT YOU WERE LOOKING AT` DID YOU EVER LOOK AT REDUCING THE TOTAL NUMBER OF MPs? CHUCKLES: WE LOOKED AT A WHOLE RANGE OF OPTIONS, UM, AND HEARD, OF COURSE, IN THE SUBMISSIONS THAT CAME TO US A VARIETY OF PROPOSALS. WE THINK WHERE WE'VE GOT TO WITH OUR RECOMMENDATIONS REALLY CREATES THE BALANCE THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR. THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT NUMBER OF MPs? WE SEEM TO HAVE A LOT. (CHUCKLES) DIDN'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT THAT ON THE PANEL` UM, IN THE HEARING, THOUGH. POLITICAL DONATIONS ARE ANOTHER CONTENTIOUS SORT OF AREA, AND YOU ARE RECOMMENDING` SOME QUITE STRONG RECOMMENDATIONS IN THAT AREA. WELL, THIS IS WHERE WE HEARD A LOT OF CONCERN FROM PEOPLE. PEOPLE ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE IDEA OF UNDUE INFLUENCE IN POLITICS, THAT MONEY IS BUYING SOMETHING. UM, AND` IS THAT WELL BASED? IS THAT TRUE? WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD FROM NEW ZEALANDERS, SO THAT'S WHAT` YOU KNOW, THAT CONCERN WAS IMPACTING ON THEIR TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN THE SYSTEM. SO WE ARE RECOMMENDING THAT DONATIONS BE CAPPED AT 30,000 AND THAT ONLY REGISTERED VOTERS WOULD BE ABLE TO DONATE. AND THE POLITICAL PARTIES PROBABLY AREN'T GOING TO BE IN FAVOUR OF THIS ONE. IS THAT A PROBLEM, WHEN YOU'RE MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY HAVE TO GO BACK TO PARLIAMENT IN ORDER TO BE IMPLEMENTED? WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DID WAS COME BACK TO OUR PRINCIPLES AROUND, YOU KNOW, 'IS THIS GOING TO BE FAIR? IS IT GOING TO ENCOURAGE 'MORE PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN OUR SYSTEM? 'IS THIS ABOUT OPEN, ACCOUNTABLE GOVERNMENT, EFFECTIVE GOVERNMENT?' AND THAT'S WHERE WE CAME BACK TO, IS OUR PRINCIPLES. WELL, KIWIS HAVE UNTIL THE 17TH OF JULY, I THINK, TO MAKE SUBMISSIONS ON THESE RECOMMENDATIONS, AND YOU WOULD BE ENCOURAGING THEM TO DO SO? YES. WE'RE REALLY KEEN TO` ESPECIALLY IF PEOPLE THINK THAT WE'VE GOT THINGS NOT QUITE RIGHT ` OR IF WE HAVE GOT THINGS RIGHT ` WE'RE KEEN TO HEAR THOSE VIEWS, YEAH. WONDERFUL. WELL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR WORK AND FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION. KIA ORA. OK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` SENIOR WRITER FOR THE HERALD SIMON WILSON, PROFESSOR OF BUSINESS AT AUT ELLA HENRY AND FORMER ACT MP HEATHER ROY. TENA KOUTOU. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME, GUYS. SO, LET'S TALK ELECTORAL REFORM. WE'VE JUST HEARD THAT, YOU KNOW` FIRST OF ALL, FOUR-YEAR TERM, BUT WOULD HAVE TO BE A REFERENDUM. HEATHER, WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT? OH, I'D BE FULLY SUPPORTIVE OF A FOUR-YEAR TERM. THREE YEARS IS VERY SHORT; IT'S OUT OF KILTER WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD, AND I THINK A REFERENDUM IS THE RIGHT WAY TO` SO THAT VOTERS ARE ACTUALLY SUPPORTING THE LENGTH OF THE TERM. OK. LET'S TICK OFF A FEW OTHERS. 3.5% THRESHOLD ` ELLA? THEY'RE SAYING THAT` TO INCREASE REPRESENTATION OF SMALLER PARTIES; WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? WELL, OBVIOUSLY, MY FIRST THOUGHT, AS WAS BROUGHT UP, IS HOW THAT MIGHT NEGATIVELY IMPACT ON PATI MAORI. BUT I DO THINK THAT IT ALSO REALLY GIVES THOSE SMALLER PARTIES AND THAT DIVERSITY A VOICE, A GREATER OPPORTUNITY FOR REPRESENTATION. AND THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF MMP 30 YEARS AGO. SO I THINK ANYTHING THAT DEEPENS PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION IS GOOD. RIGHT. AND, IN FACT, REAL DEMOCRACY WOULD DICTATE THAT YOU HAD NO THRESHOLD AT ALL, WHICH IS WHAT I SUPPORT. OH, NO THRESHOLD? IT WOULD GET RID OF THE` WELL, YOU NEED ABOUT 13,000 VOTES TO GET .8%, WHICH GIVES YOU ONE MP IN PARLIAMENT, OF PARTY VOTE. SO IF THAT` IF THERE WAS NO THRESHOLD, ACTUALLY, ALL VOTES WOULD GO TO THE PARTY THAT THEY'RE INTENDED, AND IT WOULD CHANGE SOME OF THOSE BEHAVIOURAL ISSUES` SO YOU'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT A WHOLE BUNCH OF REAL FRINGE PARTIES COMING IN? NOT AT ALL. NOT AT ALL? IF THEY CAN GET THAT MANY VOTES, I THINK THEY DESERVE THEIR PLACE THERE. SIMON, ONE OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT CAUGHT MY EYE IS THIS $30,000 CAP ON DONATIONS, AND NOTHING FROM CORPORATIONS ` ONLY MADE BY VOTERS. THAT'S A REAL CHANGE-UP IN THE DONATIONS LANDSCAPE. I THINK IT'S A PROFOUND CHANGE, AND POSSIBLY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THING THEY HAVE PROPOSED ` AND POSSIBLY ALSO THE LEAST LIKELY OF ANY OF THEIR PROPOSALS TO BE ADOPTED. YEAH. (LAUGHTER) WE KNOW WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE YOU CAN BUY ENORMOUS INFLUENCE OF POLITICAL PARTIES, AND THERE ARE PARTIES THAT BENEFIT FROM THAT. WE KNOW FROM THE ELECTORAL RETURNS THAT THERE'S A SMALL NUMBER OF EXTREMELY NEW ZEALANDERS WHO DONATE VERY SUBSTANTIALLY TO THE PARTIES NATIONAL AND ACT. AND THERE WAS... AND THEY'RE BUYING INFLUENCE? ...ACROSS THE BOARD FOR THAT. AND THAT` I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR US. OK, BUT THE THING IS ` I MEAN, YOU SAY THAT THAT'S PROBABLY THE LEAST LIKELY TO GET VOTED IN; IS ANY OF THIS GOING TO BE VOTED IN AT ALL? BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, THE CONSULTATION COMES BACK IN NOVEMBER ` IT'S NOT IN TIME FOR THIS ELECTION ` AND THEN YOU NEED A SUPERMAJORITY FOR THINGS LIKE FOUR-YEAR TERMS. SO WE'RE NOT GONNA SEE THIS, ARE WE? NO, I'M HOPEFUL, ACTUALLY, THAT WE CAN SEE SOME CHANGE SO THAT THERE IS A MORE FAIR AND ACCESSIBLE DEMOCRACY AT PLAY. I THINK THAT THE REFERENDUM WOULD ACTUALLY BE SOMETHING THAT'S RELATIVELY EASY TO RUN, FOR A FOUR-YEAR TERM. AND I DO THINK THAT, UM... IF PUBLIC WANT SOME CHANGE AND MAKE THAT KNOWN, THEN IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET IT. OK. WELL` DON'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHERS THINK. MAYBE WE SHOULD LET 16-YEAR-OLDS VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM. (LAUGHS) WELL, YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER THING. ELLA, WOULD YOU WANT 16-YEAR-OLDS TO VOTE? ABSOLUTELY. AND I SAY THAT AS SOMEBODY WHO WORKS IN A UNIVERSITY WITH YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS ` MANY YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS ` AND I AM PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY HOW POLITICALLY ADEPT THEY ARE AND, AS CIVIL CITIZENS, HOW MUCH MORE AWARE. MANY OF THEM HAVE COME THROUGH THE MOVEMENTS PROTECTING THE CLIMATE AND THE ENVIRONMENT, SO I THINK WE HAVE A HIGH LEVEL OF POLITICALLY AWARE YOUNG FOLK WHO ARE ACTUALLY CHAMPING AT THE BIT. LET'S MOVE ON POLITICAL ADEPTNESS AND TALK ABOUT MICHAEL WOOD. UM, (CHUCKLES) SHOULD HE GO AS A MINISTER? SIMON WILSON? UM, I'M NOT SURE THAT HE SHOULD. WHAT HE HAS DEMONSTRATED IS AN APPALLING LACK OF JUDGEMENT` AS NICOLA WILLIS SAID, AN APPALLING LACK OF JUDGEMENT ABOUT HOW YOU APPLY THE RULES TO YOUR OWN SITUATION. BUT HIS, UH... HIS MISDEMEANOUR IS NOT A MAJOR CORRUPTION ISSUE. NO. AND NOBODY'S SUGGESTING THAT IT IS. HE HAS BEEN A FOOL, AND I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT NECESSARILY GOES TO HIS COMPETENCE OR CREDIBILITY AS A MINISTER BEYOND THAT. NICOLA WILLIS IS SAYING THAT IT'S` OK, BUT NICOLA WILLIS IS SAYING IT'S A TRUST ISSUE, HEATHER ROY. YEAH. I THINK` SO DO YOU`? I MEAN, I DON'T THINK YOU AGREE WITH SIMON THERE, DO YOU? NO, I DON'T, AND I THINK HE SHOULD GO, AND I THINK FOR THE SAKE OF THE LABOUR PARTY, HE HAS TO GO. I THINK THAT THE SOCIAL LICENCE OF GOVERNING IS BASED ON THE PREMISE OF TRUST. I THINK NICOLA WILLIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT ` THE PEOPLE HAVE TO TRUST THEIR GOVERNMENT. WHEN YOU BREACH THAT, YOU'VE GOT A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE. AND IF LABOUR DO ALLOW HIM` IF CHRIS HIPKINS ALLOWS HIM BACK INTO CABINET, I THINK THE LABOUR PARTY THEN` THE GOVERNMENT THEN TAKES ON THE BURDEN OF THE LACK OF TRUST BY THE ELECTORATE, AND I THINK THAT'S A SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM FOR THEM. YEAH, OK. WELL, I MEAN` BUT IT'S A POLITICAL RATHER THAN AN ETHICAL THING. IT'S NOT THE` YES, I` LOOK, THIS ISN'T ABOUT SHARES AND MONEY ANY LONGER. OK. NO. IT'S ABOUT THE FACT HE DIDN'T DECLARE WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE DONE. EITHER HE WAS LAZY OR HE WAS ARROGANT. HE'S NOT LAZY ` WE'VE SEEN THAT. HE'S VERY ABLE. HE'S A LAWYER. IF ANYBODY SHOULD'VE KNOWN THE RULES, HE SHOULD'VE. AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM NOW. (SIMON LAUGHS) NOT ACTUALLY THE MONEY OR THE SHARES. DO YOU` ELLA, DO YOU CARE WHETHER MICHAEL WOOD COMES BACK AS A MINISTER OR NOT? WELL, I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN THAT HE WAS VERY MUCH TOUTED AS ONE OF THE RISING STARS. YEAH. AND I FEEL LIKE THIS WEEK, WE'VE WATCHED THE DESTRUCTION OF SOMEONE'S POLITICAL CAREER. EVEN IF HE STAYS, HE MAY HAVE TO WORK A LOT HARDER TO STAY IN PARLIAMENT. I DO THINK SOME TOUGH DECISIONS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE MADE. BECAUSE LABOUR REALLY WANTS TO PRESENT ITSELF AS A PARTY OF THE PEOPLE THAT CAN BE TRUSTED AND THAT HAS THE BEST PEOPLE AT THE HELM, AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE A DECISION THEY HAVE TO LOOK HARD AT. THAT'S GOING TO COME PROBABLY IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS ` JUST BEFORE THE ELECTION, SO THE TIMING'S NOT GREAT FOR LABOUR, IS IT? THIS IS THIS POLITICAL CAPITAL FOR NATIONAL, RIGHT, SIMON? THEY SHOULD BE GOING` WELL, THEY ARE GOING HELL FOR LEATHER ON THIS ONE, BUT THEY SHOULD BE REPRESENTING IN THE POLLS AS WELL, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT A LABOUR MINISTER HAS MISSPOKEN. SO WHAT'S GOING ON THERE? YES, YOU ASKED NICOLA WILLIS ABOUT THAT, AND HER ANSWER ISN'T CONVINCING. NATIONAL SHOULD BE DOING BETTER, BUT I AM NOT SURE IT'S BECAUSE NATIONAL'S` I'M NOT SURE NATIONAL'S RELATIVE WEAKNESS, CONSIDERING EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON, IS BECAUSE OF LABOUR. NATIONAL HAS A REAL ISSUE WITH ACT ON THE RIGHT. NATIONAL IS, UH, AT REAL RISK NOW OF LOSING A LOT OF VOTES TO THE ACT PARTY. AND WE'RE SEEING THAT STARTING TO HAPPEN. WE'RE PARTICULARLY SEEING IT IN PROVINCIAL AND RURAL NEW ZEALAND... RIGHT. ...AND AMONG OLDER PROPERTY-OWNING, UH... GOTTA BRING IN HEATHER HERE. IS THAT RIGHT? OH, NO, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF TRUTH TO WHAT SIMON SAYS, AND WE WERE DISCUSSING THIS IN THE GREEN ROOM. BUT WHAT AN OPPOSITION NEEDS TO DO IS SHOW THAT IT IS A GOVERNMENT IN WAITING, AND SO IT'S NOT JUST` IT'S NOT NATIONAL OR ACT; IT'S ACTUALLY ` HOW DO THEY WORK TOGETHER? WELL, THAT'S THE BIT` AND THEY NEED TO BE HAVING SOME REALLY ROBUST CONVERSATIONS ABOUT` WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY IS THE... THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IS USUALLY YOU FIGHT THE ELECTION IN THE MIDDLE, BUT NATIONAL HAS THIS OTHER ISSUE WHERE THEY'VE GOT TO FIGHT IT ON THE RIGHT... YEAH. ...BEFORE THEY CAN GET TO FIGHTING IT IN THE MIDDLE. THAT'S PRETTY COMPLICATED FOR THEM. OR THEY FOCUS HEAVILY IN THE MIDDLE. OK. UH, AND IN THE MIDDLE, ELLA... (ELLA CHUCKLES) ...ARE A BUNCH OF WOMEN ` 50% OF THE POPULATION. HOW DO YOU THINK CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS RESONATING WITH WOMEN? WELL, CERTAINLY IN MY OWN COMMUNITY, UM, I` (STAMMERS) THERE'S A DIFFICULTY. AND PARTICULARLY IN THE MAORI COMMUNITY ` THE BELLY-FLOPPING AROUND THE USE OF TE REO ON SIGNAGE... YOU KNOW, AND THE REALITY IS WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THE MAORI VOTE IS GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE AT THE NEXT ELECTION. THE BIG CHALLENGE FOR THE PARTIES THAT HAVE SIGNIFICANT MAORI SUPPORT IS GETTING OUR YOUNG TO THE POLLING BOOTHS. YEAH. RAISING PARTICIPATION OF MAORI. BUT CERTAINLY THE MAORI WOMEN I SPEAK TO HAVE NOT BEEN ATTRACTED, NECESSARILY, TO SOME OF THE MESSAGING COMING OUT OF, UH... OUT OF LUXON'S CAMP. RIGHT. OK. UM SHOULD`? DOES NICOLA WILLIS HAVE A PROBLEM IN THAT SHE'S TRYING TO GET IMPORTANT MESSAGES THROUGH ON FINANCE AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND THAT SHE'S HAVING TO CLARIFY? HEATHER? UM, WELL, IT'S ALWAYS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU WANT TO BE TALKING ABOUT ONE THING BUT PEOPLE KEEP ASKING YOU QUESTIONS ON ANOTHER. I THINK THERE WAS A WHOLE LOT OF RED HERRINGS THIS WEEK, AND` YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION ABOUT CHRIS LUXON'S COMMENTS AND JOKES... YOU KNOW, CAN YOU NOT MAKE A JOKE ANY LONGER? EVEN THE PERSON INTERVIEWING HIM HAS COME OUT SAYING IT WAS DONE IN A VERY LIGHT-HEARTED WAY, BUT IT'S BEEN SEIZED UPON. AND ACTUALLY, NEW ZEALAND COULD DO WITH MORE PEOPLE. (LAUGHTER) I'VE DONE... I'VE DONE MY BIT FOR THE POPULATION. OK. ALL RIGHT. OK, WELL, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO FINISH IT THERE. UM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, HEATHER ROY, ELLA HENRY AND SIMON WILSON. OK. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US ` WE WILL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK, TO BACKSTORY ` INSIDE THE HISTORIES AND THE PERSONAL PHOTO ALBUMS OF OUR MPS. LABOUR'S HELEN WHITE WAS BORN IN KAWERAU, HER POLITICS SHAPED BY HER WORK, HER STRONG MOTHER ` AND EARLY STRUGGLES AS A MOTHER HERSELF. SO WE JOINED HER AT HOME IN SANDRINGHAM, AUCKLAND TO HEAR HER BACKSTORY. I WAS BORN IN KAWERAU, AND, UM, IT'S A LITTLE MILLING TOWN THAT HAD A PULP AND PAPER MILL. AND SO, MY MOTHER WAS A TEACHER THERE, AND MY FATHER WAS A NEWLY ARTICLED LAWYER. I WAS ONLY 3 WHEN WE LEFT AND WE CAME UP TO FREEMANS BAY. IT'S AN AREA THAT, AT THAT STAGE, WAS VERY DIFFERENT. IT WAS HOPPIN' AND BOPPIN'. MY MOTHER WAS REALLY DYNAMIC, AND SO... SHE WAS THE CHAIR OF THE SCHOOL, AND I'M REALLY PROUD OF SOME OF THE THINGS SHE DID. SHE'S ACTUALLY A REMARKABLE WOMAN WHO GREW UP WITH A LOT OF PAIN. LIKE, HER FATHER HAD QUITE SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS, AND HER MOTHER WAS ONE OF THOSE WOMEN` AT THAT TIME, YOU DIDN'T LEAVE YOUR PARTNER; YOU TOLERATED THEM. SO I SUSPECT QUITE A BIT OF DAMAGE WAS DONE. BUT SHE WASN'T A PERSON WHO SULKED. SHE WAS A PERSON WHO WAS INCREDIBLY OPTIMISTIC. AND THAT KIND OF OPENNESS WAS ACTUALLY TRUE OF BOTH MY PARENTS. AND SHE'S ACTUALLY GOT DEMENTIA NOW. BUT SHE'S STILL LIKE THAT. SHE'S STILL ACTUALLY A REALLY WARM PERSON. AND IT'S VERY LUCKY THAT I'VE KEPT THAT PART OF HER, EVEN THOUGH HER SHORT-TERM MEMORY REALLY ISN'T GREAT. YEAH, AND TOUGHER FOR MY FATHER ` IT'S REALLY HARD. BUT SHE'S LOVELY, AND THAT'S NOT ALWAYS A GIVEN WITH DEMENTIA, SO THAT'S GOOD. BUT MY FATHER'S 92, AND THEY` LIVING IN THEIR OWN HOUSE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT. BUT IT IS, IT'S A CONSTANT WORRY. WHEN I WENT TO ENGLAND` BECAUSE MY BOYFRIEND HAD GONE TO SAN FRANCISCO AND THEN ON TO ENGLAND, AND I WENT TO JOIN HIM. SO I MARRIED HIM, AND WE HAD THREE CHILDREN, AND THEY'RE REALLY GORGEOUS. SO I HAVE A 28-YEAR-OLD AND A 24-YEAR-OLD AND A 22-YEAR-OLD. IT WAS` YOU KNOW, IT WAS TOUGH, LIKE IT IS WHEN YOU'VE GOT LITTLE KIDS, YOU'VE GOT NO MONEY... I REMEMBER WHEN WE HAD OUR FIRST CHILD AND, UM, WE HAD NO MONEY. AND I WAS BRINGING THIS CHILD HOME WHO'D BEEN IN INTENSIVE CARE. MY HUSBAND BORROWED $500 OFF HIS DAD, AND THEN WE BROUGHT MAX HERE, AND THEN WE` LATER ON, WE RENOVATED THE HOUSE AND WE RIPPED UP THE CARPETS, AND IT WAS ACTUALLY WET. AND HE HAD HAD PNEUMONIA, AND WE'D HAD HIM IN OUR ROOM, WHICH WAS ACTUALLY, LIKE, PHYSICALLY WET. LIKE... I CAN'T BELIEVE I DID THAT, BUT I DID DO IT. AND IT WAS JUST LIKE` THAT WAS THE WAY IT WAS, RIGHT? YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY, AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW BETTER. MY MOTHER HAD ALWAYS TAUGHT ME ` YEAH, YOU CAN DO EVERYTHING. UM, THAT WAS A LIE. (LAUGHS) YOU CAN DO EVERYTHING BADLY. YEAH. SO I FELT, AT THAT TIME, WHEN I HAD LITTLE KIDS, THAT I WAS FAILING AT EVERYTHING, AND THAT WAS A REALLY, REALLY HARD TIME. UM, I` IT WAS BAD FOR MY CONFIDENCE. IT WAS VERY CHALLENGING. THE IDEA OF PARLIAMENT WAS IN MY` IN MY MIND A LONG TIME AGO, BUT THEN IT WENT AWAY. LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOUR LIFE GETS BUSY AND YOU'VE GOT CHILDREN, AND I... I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE WHO DO POLITICAL THINGS HAVE REALLY GROUNDED EXPERIENCE. AND.... EMPLOYMENT LAW IS AN INCREDIBLE WINDOW INTO PEOPLE'S LIVES. AND YOU ACTUALLY CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE. I DIDN'T THINK I GOT IN, BECAUSE I'D LOST TO CHLOE ON THE NIGHT, AND I WAS LOW ENOUGH ON THE LIST THAT I ACTUALLY DIDN'T THINK I WAS IN. I HAD TO DO THE NUMBERS. IN FACT, WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT DAVID PARKER HAD TO CALL ME AND CONVINCE ME I WAS IN. THAT'S TRUE. IT WAS GREAT. HE WAS LIKE, 'YEAH, YOU'RE IN. 'YOU HAVE TO COME DOWN TO WELLINGTON. YEP.' HE'S A PRETTY LOW-KEY KIND OF GUY. (LAUGHS) I THINK I BRING A WHOLE LOT OF HUMANITY TO IT. THAT EXPERIENCE OF BRINGING UP MY KIDS, WORKING, THE WIDER CONNECTIONS THAT I HAVE, THE WORK THAT I DID IS ALL ACTUALLY REALLY IMPORTANT. THAT IS HELEN WHITE THERE, WHO IS, UH... SORT OF CARETAKING, I SUPPOSE, THE MOUNT ALBERT ELECTORATE AT THE MOMENT. BUT SHE'S BEEN SELECTED AS THE CANDIDATE? SHE HAS BEEN SELECTED AS THE CANDIDATE. SO` YOU SAW THAT SHE DIDN'T GET IN AUCKLAND CENTRAL ` LOST TO CHLOE. BUT, YEAH. YEAH. UH, MOUNT ALBERT ` PREVIOUS ELECTORATE OF... UH, WELL, JACINDA ARDERN, HELEN CLARK... YEAH, NOT BIG NAMES TO LIVE UP TO AT ALL (!) NO, THAT'S RIGHT. A VERY STORIED ELECTORATE. MAYBE SHE'LL BE ABLE TO ADD TO THE SWEEP OF HISTORY OVER THERE. THAT IS ALL FROM US FOR THIS WEEK. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. KOINA NGA KORERO MO TENEI RA. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023