TENA TATOU KATOA, I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. ATA MARIE, E HOA MA, NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` AIMING FOR THE TOP, COULD RAF MANJI BECOME THE NEW POLITICAL POWERBROKER? A BIG WEEK FOR FARMERS. WE'VE BEEN AT FIELDAYS AS PARTIES VIE FOR THE CRUCIAL RURAL VOTE. AND ONLINE LOOT BOXES ` ARE THEY GAMING OR A GATEWAY TO UNDERAGE GAMBLING? CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND KITTY WASASALA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY, IMAGINE A SUPER TIGHT ELECTION, A DEAD HEAT BETWEEN THE MAJOR PARTIES AND THEIR COALITION PARTNERS. ONE PARTY HOLDS THE BALANCE OF POWER, BUT IT'S NOT TE PATI MAORI. IT'S A NEW PARTY TO PARLIAMENT, BORN FROM THE CHRISTCHURCH ELECTORATE OF ILAM. THE LEADER OF THE OPPORTUNITIES PARTY, OR TOP, RAF MANJI, BELIEVES HE CAN WIN THE SEAT. SO WHAT ARE HIS BOTTOM LINES? RAF MANJI JOINS ME NOW. TENA KOE. THANKS FOR COMING IN. THIS ALL COMES DOWN TO WINNING ILAM. GIVE ME A PITCH. WELL, IT'S TIME FOR A FRESH VOICE AND FRESH IDEAS, THAT IS NOT LEFT, THAT'S NOT RIGHT, IS FORWARD-LOOKING AND FUTURE FOCUSED. I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO BRING TO PARLIAMENT. 2% ON THE POLLS. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SEAT AND WHO YOU CAN BRING IN WITH YOU. I THINK SO. I THINK 5% IS A VERY TOUGH ASK FOR ANY SMALL PARTY BUT PARTICULARLY FOR A PARTY THAT HASN'T BEEN IN PARLIAMENT BEFORE. WE THINK WE CAN GET THE PARTY VOTE UP, BUT ILAM AS OUR PRIME FOCUS. YOU'VE HAD SOME SUCCESS THERE BEFORE STANDING AS AN INDEPENDENT. YOU CAME SECOND IN 2017 BEHIND NATIONAL'S GERRY BROWNLEE. WHY DID YOU JOIN TOP? IS IT JUST A POLITICAL MOVE FOR YOU PERSONALLY? NO. TOP APPROACHED ME IN 2017 WHEN I WAS STANDING IN ILAM. I MET GARETH. I LIKED THE WORK THAT GARETH HAD DONE, PARTICULARLY AROUND UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME AND THE APPROACH THAT HE TOOK TO POLICY AND TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. THEY ASKED IF I COULD STAND FOR THEM IN 2017, BUT MY PITCH WAS ABOUT THE POST-EARTHQUAKE SITUATION. SO IT WAS VERY FOCUSED, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE CHRISTCHURCH DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT PEOPLE IN CHRISTCHURCH DID. IN 2020, THEY ASKED ME AGAIN. I WAS STILL DEALING WITH 15 MARCH. I WAS NOT IN THAT POSITION. THEN IN 2022... YOU SAID YES. I THINK THE REASON WAS IS BECAUSE` POLITICS IS HARD, AND THIS IS A HARD ROAD, BUT I JUST FELT THAT 2023 WOULD NEED SOMETHING NEW. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POLITICAL MOTIVATION. YOU MOVED HERE FROM LONDON. YOU WORKED IN THE CAPITAL MARKETS IN THE LONDON FINANCIAL HUB, AND YOU CAME TO THE PROVINCIAL HUB OF CHRISTCHURCH. WAS THAT A CULTURE SHOCK? NO. I FIRST CAME TO NEW ZEALAND IN 1988 AS A BACKPACKER. I'D BEEN HERE BEFORE. I MET A KIWI GIRL IN BANGKOK OF ALL PLACES, AND I CAME DOWN HERE AND FELL IN LOVE WITH THE PLACE. I HITCHHIKED AROUND THE SOUTH ISLAND AND SPENT SOME TIME IN CHRISTCHURCH AND THOUGHT IT WAS A LITTLE BIT LIKE ENGLAND IN A WAY. WE WERE BACK IN LONDON AND HAD CHILDREN, AND THOUGHT WHERE DO WE WANT TO BRING THEM UP? WE USED TO COME TO CHRISTCHURCH ON HOLIDAY AND ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT. YOUR POLITICAL MOTIVATION, DO YOU HAVE A POLITICAL HERO HERE THAT YOU TRY TO EMULATE? WHY ARE YOU DOING IT? BECAUSE WE NEED BETTER OUTCOMES. AND WE NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR THE FUTURE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I'M INTERESTED IN. I'VE GOT CHILDREN, SO I'M COMMITTED TO THAT. YOU HAVE A POLITICAL HERO? NOT REALLY, NO. MOST PEOPLE STANDING FOR POLITICS ARE EMBEDDED AND IMMERSED IN THE POLITICAL HISTORY AND HAVE POLITICAL HERO. IS IT STRANGE YOU DON'T HAVE A POLITICAL HERO? I'M NOT A TRADITIONAL POLITICIAN, I'M PROBLEM SOLVER. FOR ME, IT'S A QUESTION OF HOW TO GET THE OUTCOMES PEOPLE WANT. WE CURRENTLY HAVE AN 18TH-CENTURY POLITICAL SYSTEM THAT TO ME LOOKS LIKE IT'S ON ITS LAST LEGS. WE HAVE AN MMP SYSTEM HERE THAT IS STALE. WE NEED SOMETHING DIFFERENT. IF YOU THINK OF IT AS INSPIRATION, MACRON IN FRANCE. IN 2017, HE CAME THROUGH THE CENTRE OUT OF NOWHERE. I'M NOT SAYING I'M GOING TO DO THAT, BUT WHAT HAPPENED IS THE TRADITIONAL LEFT AND RIGHT PARTIES IN FRANCE BASICALLY COLLAPSED. THEY STOPPED DELIVERING FOR PEOPLE. SO YOU'RE SEEING A SPACE IN THE CENTRE FOR SOMEONE LIKE... FRANCE AND NEW ZEALAND ARE VERY DIFFERENT, BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT I THINK THERE IS TIME` IT IS TIME FOR SOMETHING NEW AND FRESH. YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF BIG PICTURE POLICY, TAX REFORM AND ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE TEAL CARD. YOU BROUGHT ONE IN. I DIDN'T ASK YOU TO, BUT YOU CAN'T RESIST A BIT OF BRANDING. THIS IS AN UNDER-30S POLICY, SO IF I WAS UNDER 30, I COULD BE INTERESTED BECAUSE IT IS $1500 CREDIT FOR E SCOOTER, FREE PUBLIC TRANSPORT, FREE GP AND DENTAL VISITS, 5 GRAND TOWARDS KIWISAVER. WHY SUCH A YOUTH TARGETED POLICY? BECAUSE WE NEED TO INVEST IN OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS. THIS IS A GOLD CARD FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. IF YOU'RE UNDER 30, YOU SHOULD LOVE THIS, BUT I'VE BEEN HANDING THIS OUT TO KIDS. 'CHECK THIS OUT; THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET AS YOU GROW UP.' BUT THERE ARE ACTUALLY A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE, PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS, WHO THINK THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. WE NEED TO INVEST IN OUR YOUNGER GENERATION AND GIVE THEM A SENSE OF WHAT FUTURE MIGHT LOOK LIKE, THE NATIONAL CIVIC SERVICE AND SOCIAL COHESION. YOU ONLY GET $5000 TOWARDS YOUR TRAINING OR KIWISAVER IF YOU COMPLETE A CIVICS COURSE, WHICH ALSO COSTS YOU ABOUT 5 GRAND, NOT YOU PERSONALLY, BUT THE GOVERNMENT. HOW LIKELY IS IT? HOW LIKELY ARE THE KIDS WANTING TO DO A CIVICS COURSE? WE WILL FIND OUT. FRANCE IS ACTUALLY BRINGING IN A COMPULSORY NATIONAL CIVICS SERVICE MODEL WHICH WILL BE A YEAR LONG. SO YOU'RE TRYING TO GET ENGAGEMENT IN POLITICS. YES, IT'S CREATING THAT SENSE OF SOCIAL COHESION. THE CENTRE FOR INFORMED RELEASED A REPORT A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, EXTREMELY WORRIED ABOUT THE SOCIAL ISSUES IN NEW ZEALAND ` ALL THE GANG STUFF, THE RAM-RAIDS. WE WANT ALL OUR KIDS TO COME INTO ADULT LIFE WITH THE RIGHT LIFE SKILLS AND A SENSE OF PURPOSE, AND WE PUT IN A LITTLE BIT OF FINANCIAL SUPPORT AS WELL. ISN'T THIS A RISKY POLICY? 500,000 UNDER-30S VOTED LAST ELECTION OUT OF A POOL OF 2.9 MILLION VOTES. DON'T YOU NEED THAT OLDER VOTERS IF YOU'RE GOING TO GET ACROSS THE LINE JUST IN THE ELECTORATE? IS NOT JUST ABOUT VOTING, IT'S ABOUT THE POLICIES THAT WE NEED. BUT YOU'VE GOT TO ATTRACT THE OTHER` APART FROM THE UNDER 30S, YOU HAVE TO ATTRACT THE REST OF THE ELECTORATE. ABSOLUTELY. THE INTERESTING THING FOR ME IS WHEN I LOOK AT MY SUPPORT IN ILAM, A LOT OF IT IS OLDER PEOPLE. THEY VOTED FOR ME IN COUNCIL AND SAW THE PERSON I WAS, THAT I WAS A STRAIGHT SHOOTER, WAS ABLE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS FOR THEM. I THINK THIS IS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF NEW ZEALAND AND WE'VE ALL GOT A STAKE IN IT, WHETHER YOU'RE YOUNG OR OLD. ARE YOU GOING TO SCARE AWAY THE OLDER VOTERS WITH YOUR OTHER KINDS OF POLICIES? YOU WANT TO PUT IN THE LAND TAX. 0.75% OF RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES. THAT WOULD DEFINITELY SCARE A LOT OF KIWI HOMEOWNERS WHO ARE SO EMOTIONALLY AND FINANCIALLY ATTACHED TO THEIR HOUSE. WE HAVE TO REBALANCE THE INCOME-HOUSING RELATIONSHIP. BEEN TRYING TO DO IT FOR AGES. CHRIS BISHOP WAS TALKING ABOUT IT TO YOU ABOUT SUSTAINED MODERATION, 10 YEARS AGO NICK SMITH WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS STUFF AS WELL. LET ME GIVE YOU SOME DATA. DECEMBER 2001 TO 2021, WAGES ROSE 56%. IN THAT SAME TIME, HOUSE PRICES ROSE 456%. THIS IS UNTENABLE. WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY SAY THEY CAN'T AFFORD A HOUSE. WE HAVE TO REBALANCE IT. THE WAY WE'RE DOING THAT IS, YES, A SMALL TAX ON URBAN RESIDENTIAL LAND, ON THE LAND VALUE, NOT THE HOUSE VALUE, AND WE ARE USING THAT TO PAY FOR INCOME TAX CUTS, SO WE HAVE A INCOME-TAX-FREE THRESHOLD. DOES IT BALANCE OUT? DO THEY GET THE SAME AMOUNT BACK FROM INCOME TAX CUTS? IN YOUR CALCULATOR THAT I'VE SEEN ONLINE, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY WORK OUT THAT WAY. THE NUMBERS TO THINK ABOUT, SO A HOUSEHOLD INCOME AROUND $70,000 AND HOUSE PRICE OF AROUND $850,000 WILL BE NET-NET, WON'T MAKE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE. FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT WILL BE $1000 HERE OR THERE. IF YOU'RE RENTING, YOU'RE NOT PAYING A LAND VALUE TAX. IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAX PROPERTY, THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT. YOU CAN HAVE A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY INCENTIVISE THE PRODUCTIVE USE OF LAND. DO YOU THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ELECTORAL APPETITE FOR A LAND TAX? WHO KNOWS? LABOUR WILL PROBABLY COME OUT WITH A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION ` DO WE WANT TO REBALANCE THIS SITUATION? THIS IS WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO GET INVOLVED AND MAKE THEIR FEELINGS KNOWN, AND WHERE OLDER PEOPLE WILL GO, 'WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, 'WHETHER IT IS A CAPITAL GAINS TAX OR A LAND VALUE TAX.' WHETHER THEY'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP AN EXTRA BIT OF MONEY FOR THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS. ABSOLUTELY. LET'S TALK ONE OTHER BIG POLICY ISSUE, UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME. $16,500 FOR EVERYONE, WHETHER YOU'RE WORKING OR NOT. WHY DO WE NEED THAT? WE HAVE GOT SOME HUGE SOCIETAL SHIFTS COMING. I DID A TALK IN 2016, TALKING ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND THE FUTURE OF AI. IT IS HERE. THIS IS GOING TO DISRUPT THE LABOUR MARKET IN WAYS THAT WE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND YET. DON'T KNOW WHETHER A LOT OF JOBS ARE GOING TO DISAPPEAR OR GET CREATED. THAT IS GOING TO BE A HUGE IMPACT ON THE LABOUR MARKET, SO THE UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME PROVIDES FLEXIBILITY SO IT MEANS PEOPLE CAN TRANSITION IN AND OUT OF JOBS. THEY CAN ATTEMPT TO START BUSINESSES. THERE'S ALSO A HUGE GENDER COMPONENT. IT'S EXTREMELY POSITIVE FOR WOMEN. SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT UNPAID WORK. WOMEN DO MOST OF THE UNPAID WORK, AROUND 75% OF THAT. THEY ARE NOT GETTING RECOMPENSE FOR THAT. THINGS LIKE CHILDCARE. THERE ARE A LOT OF BENEFITS BUT ECONOMICALLY MUCH MORE EFFICIENT THAN THE WELFARE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT. I'M GOING TO RUN OUT OF TIME SOON. LET'S SAY YOU WIN ILAM. YOUR POLICIES TEND TO SKEW LEFT, SO YOU ARE A NATURAL FIT FOR LABOUR AND THE GREENS, CORRECT? I THINK WE SKEW CENTRE. WE ARE ABOUT PROGRESSIVE POLICY, BUT ALSO FOCUSED ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY AND ENVIRONMENTAL SUSTAINABILITY. WE CAN WORK WITH BOTH SIDES NO PROBLEM. OUR APPROACH IS TO GO AND SIT ON THE CROSSBENCHES. WE ARE A NEW PARTY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO OVERPLAY OUR HAND, AND WE ARE HAPPY TO WORK WITH WHOEVER THE MAJOR PARTIES ARE. IF SOMEBODY OFFERED YOU A BAUBLE FROM EITHER SIDE, WOULD YOU GET INTO A COALITION OR SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT? NO. YOU'RE RULING THAT OUT? IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO SUPPORT ONE OF OUR POLICIES AND SAYS THEY WILL IMPLEMENT THE TEAL CARD, IT WOULD BE OF INTEREST. COULD YOU WORK WITH DAVID SEYMOUR? SURE. WINSTON PETERS? SURE. OK, YOU WORK WITH EVERYBODY. IS THERE ARE BOTTOM LINE FOR ONE PARTICULAR POLICY THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE GIVEN TO YOU IN ORDER FOR THEM TO GET YOUR SUPPORT? I THINK BOTTOM LINES AREN'T HELPFUL. THE PEOPLE OF ILAM ARE GOING TO PUT US INTO PARLIAMENT. ON TUESDAY, I'LL BE REVEALING A CHRISTCHURCH PLAN WHICH WILL BE MY PITCH TO THE PEOPLE OF ILAM. THERE WILL BE SOME POLICIES IN THERE THAT I WILL RELEASE AND ONE OF THOSE WILL BE A BOTTOM LINE. BOTTOM LINE COMING ON TUESDAY. ARE YOU NOT GOING TO TELL US WHAT IT IS NOW? NO. OK. FINALLY, YOU WERE MENTIONING BEFORE YOU ARE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND AUTOMATION, BUT YOU ARE ALSO DEVELOPING SOMETHING CALLED AN AI CANDIDATE. IT'S NOT A REAL CANDIDATE. WHAT IS IT? IT'S AN AI CANDIDATE. EVERYONE IS AWARE OF CHATGPT AND THE INCREDIBLE WORK AND SPEED AT WHICH IT CAN CHURN OUT ANSWERS AND INFORMATION. WE'VE BEEN PLAYING AROUND A LITTLE BIT WITH THE IDEA OF COULD YOU CREATE AN AI CANDIDATE? AND TURNS OUT YOU CAN. IT IS ONLINE AT THE MOMENT, BUT I AM TALKING TO SOMEBODY ABOUT IF WE CAN DEVELOP THAT UP INTO A PROPER AVATAR, SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO SPEAK, ANSWER QUESTIONS, DO INTERVIEWS. IT'S A BIT OF FUN BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T FIT UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT, BUT IT COULD DEMONSTRATE WHAT THE FUTURE OF POLITICS COULD LOOK LIKE. IF WE THINK THAT 120 PEOPLE SITTING IN THIS 100-YEAR-OLD ROOM ARE GONNA BE THE BEST PEOPLE TO MAKE DECISIONS, WE MIGHT FIND IN THE FUTURE THAT AI IS GOING TO BE WAY SMARTER THAN US. SO THERE'S NO NEED FOR RAF MANJI THEN. WHO KNOWS? WE WILL STILL NEED PEOPLE TO DECIDE THE OUTCOMES THAT WE WANT, BUT IN TERMS OF DELIVERING THE OUTCOMES, THIS IS THE THING. WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PUBLIC SERVANTS SHUFFLING PAPER AROUND. WE MAY BE ABLE TO DO THAT WE MORE EFFICIENTLY. RIGHT, OK. FASCINATING. RAF MANJI, BEST OF LUCK FOR THIS COMING YEAR ` YOU AND YOUR AI CANDIDATES. THANK YOU. THANKS FOR YOU TIME. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` AFTER THE AD BREAK ` WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL. PLUS, WE'RE OFF TO FIELDAYS AS POLITICAL PARTIES VIE FOR THE FARMERS' VOTE. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK AND WELCOME TO OUR POLITICAL PANEL. JOINING US, OUR VERY OWN DIGITAL EDITOR, FINN HOGAN; EDITOR OF NEWSROOM, MARK JENNINGS; AND FORMER NATIONAL PARTY MINISTER FOR PRIMARY INDUSTRIES, NATHAN GUY. WELCOME TO YOU. SO WE JUST HAD A BIT OF RAF. WHAT DID YOU THINK? VERY INTERESTING. WHAT I HEARD WAS A LOT OF TAX. AS A FORMER POLITICAL PERSON WHEN TO START TALKING TAX ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, IT DOESN'T GENERALLY GO DOWN WELL. HAD A LOOK AT THEIR WEBSITE, THEY'RE THINKING 42% TO 45% AT THE TOP TAX RATE. I THINK THE LAND TAX WILL GO DOWN LIKE A CUP OF COLD SICK WITH THE VOTERS IN ILAM. I DON'T THINK THE TOP BRAND IS WHERE IT WAS WHEN GARETH MORGAN WAS INVOLVED. THEY GOT 2.4% IN 2017. SO I CAN'T SEE RAF WINNING. I THINK THE VOTERS ARE GOING TO GO BACK HOME TO NATIONAL. IT'S INTERESTING. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT. IT IS A LONG SHOT FOR RAF TO BECOME ONE OF THESE PETER DUNNE OR DAVID SEYMOUR-LIKE CHARACTERS. YEAH, IT IS A LONG SHOT. I LIKED THE INTERVIEW THIS MORNING WITH HIM. I LIKED HIS BACK STORY MEETS A KIWI GIRL IN BANGKOK AND COMES HOME. I THINK THAT IS GOING TO PLAY WELL. I THINK OF THE GOLD CARD FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE ACTUALLY IS ATTRACTIVE. NO ONE SEEMS TO BE DOING ANYTHING FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE. THEY CAN'T GET INTO THE HOUSING MARKET. RAF IS OFFERING THEM A WAY IN HERE. WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT REBALANCING THIS HOUSING-DRIVEN ECONOMY. SO I THINK HE'S GOT SOME GOOD IDEAS. WHETHER THEY'RE ELECTORALLY ATTRACTIVE ENOUGH, I TAKE NATHAN'S POINT. I'D LOVE TO SEE ILAM STAND UP AND BE AN EPSOM AND ALLOW US TO INJECT SOME BIG, BOLD NEW IDEAS INTO THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE NATIONAL AND LABOUR ` OUT OF IDEAS. AREN'T THEY? NO. FAR FROM IT. WHO IS HE APPEALING TO, FINN? BECAUSE YOUNG PEOPLE IS ONE GROUP. HE SAYS HE GETS OLDER SUPPORT, BUT WHAT DO YOU SEE? YOUNGISH MASSIVE NERDS IS WHO HE'S AIMING AT. HE'S GOT A DENSE THICKET OF POLICY, AND A LOT OF IT IS VERY TECH-HEAVY. TOP IS AT ITS BEST WHEN THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT BIG PICTURE STUFF. HE IS GOING TO APPEAL TO YOUNG PEOPLE BECAUSE HE IS PROBABLY THE ONLY POLITICIAN WHO WAS ADDRESSING THE FACT THAT THE NEXT 10 YEARS IS MOST LIKELY GOING TO BE RADICALLY DIFFERENT RIGHT ACROSS THE ECONOMY THAN THE PREVIOUS 10. HE TALKED ABOUT AI AND AUTOMATION. THAT IS GOING TO APPEAL TO YOUNG PEOPLE. THERE IS THAT DISSATISFACTION WITH THE TWO-PARTY STATUS QUO. IT IS ALWAYS A RISKY BET BETTING THERE'S GOING TO BE THIS BIG YOUTH WAVE COMING UP TO SAVE YOU WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY ASKING OLDER VOTERS TO REALLY VOTE AGAINST THEIR OWN INTERESTS, IF THEY ARE OWNING LAND. I THOUGHT HE WAS SPEAKING YOUR LANGUAGE AROUND THAT AI THING. AI CANDIDATE? I'M TOTALLY HERE FOR IT! I WANT TO SWITCH TACKS BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER BIG STORY THAT REALLY DOMINATED OUT THERE. IT WAS RNZ. WE TRIED TO GET THE MINISTER ON; HE WAS UNAVAILABLE TODAY. WE TRIED TO GET JIM MATHER, WHO IS THE CHAIR OF THE BOARD AT RNZ AND THE CEO. NONE OF THEM WOULD COME ON THE PROGRAM TO DISCUSS WHAT HAS BEEN AN EDITORIAL SCANDAL ENGULFING A PUBLIC ENTITY. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH, MARK? NO IT'S NOT. I THINK JIM SHOULD HAVE BEEN SITTING HERE TODAY EXPLAINING WHAT THIS ENQUIRY IS GOING TO INVOLVE, WHAT QUESTIONS THEY ARE ASKING AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO WITH THE RESULTS TO BUILD BACK TRUST FOR RADIO NEW ZEALAND. ITS TRUST HAS BEEN HAMMERED OVER THIS. IF I WAS THE CHAIRMAN, I WOULD BE IN HERE SHOWING THAT I'M GOING TO ACT. I THINK... I THINK MAYBE THEY ARE RUNNING A LITTLE BIT SCARED. WHEN YOU TAKE ON THOSE POSITIONS, YOU'VE GOT TO FRONT UP. YOU'VE GOT TO STAND UP FOR YOUR JOURNALISTS. AND YOUR ORGANISATION. FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S POINT OF VIEW, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS HANDLED? WOEFULLY. I CAN'T BELIEVE SOMEONE IN RNZ WAS ABLE TO DO THIS OVER FIVE YEARS. I FIND IT IRONIC THAT PAUL THOMPSON IS BEING INTERVIEWED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE AND NOT GOING OUT TO THE PUBLIC TO BE SCRUTINISED OVER ACTION. THE CREDIBILITY HAS BEEN SHOT. I THINK, WHERE'S THE EDITORIAL OVERSIGHT ON THE STORIES? IT IS WOEFUL AT A TIME WHERE AI MIGHT BE AROUND AND PEOPLE ARE THINKING WHERE ARE THE HOME TRUTHS? HERE IS OUR PUBLIC BROADCASTER THAT CAN'T TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THEIR MESSAGE IS THAT THEY'RE PUSHING OUT. SO I'M REALLY DISAPPOINTED. I KNOW THAT SOME OF THEIR VIEWERS ARE WELL RUSTED ON, BUT WE NEED TO HAVE FULL VISIBILITY ON THIS ENQUIRY. HEADS NEED TO ROLL AT RNZ. IF I WAS THE BROADCASTING MINISTER, I WOULD BE SAYING I'M REALLY DISAPPOINTED, I WOULD WANT THE CHAIR IN MY OFFICE AND HOLD RNZ TO ACCOUNT. I WANT TIMEFRAMES; I WANT ACCOUNTABILITY. BECAUSE WE JUST CAN'T AFFORD TO HAVE A PUBLIC BROADCASTER ACTUALLY BEING ALLOWED TO DO THE` TELL UNFORTUNATE MISTRUTHS TO THE NZ PUBLIC AT A POINT WE ARE WANTING TRUTHFUL STORIES ` WANTING TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE WAR, AND THE MESSAGE IS BEING MANIPULATED. IT IS SUCH A FASCINATING AND COMPLEX SITUATION THAT THEY ARE FACING. ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS SURPRISED TO FIND OUT, AND PERHAPS JOURNALISTS AT RNZ WERE TOO, WAS THAT THE DIGITAL ARM SEEM TO BE SEPARATE FROM THE NEWS ARM. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PROCESSES AND PEOPLE, FINN. IT'S INTERESTING. I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE INTERNAL PROCESSES, BUT I DO THINK IT SPEAKS TO SOMETHING BROADER. THE DIGITAL TEAMS ARE IN A LOT OF WAY SILOED FROM TRADITIONAL BROADCAST BECAUSE WHAT IS NEEDED IS DIFFERENT. DIGITAL JOURNALISTS AREN'T COMING FROM A TRADITIONAL BROADCAST BACKGROUND. I THINK THERE IS A BIGGER STORY HERE AS WELL` THE PRESSURE ON THE INDUSTRY IS IMMENSE FROM THE ECONOMIC AND BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE, BUT THE BRUNT OF THAT IS BEING BORNE BY DIGITAL TEAMS. THE DIGITAL JOURNALISTS ARE OFTEN PAID A LOT LESS MONEY THAN TRADITIONAL BROADCAST; THEY ARE BEING ASKED TO PRODUCE CONTENT AT ALL HOURS OF THE DAY VERY QUICKLY AND THERE AREN'T THOSE TRADITIONAL GUARDRAILS AROUND THEM, SO IF THERE CAN BE ANY LEARNING THAT COMES FROM THAT, IT SHOULD BE THAT YOU NEWSROOMS NEED TO INVEST AND PAY ATTENTION TO DIGITAL ARMS SO THIS KIND OF THING ISN'T HAPPENING. I THINK THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT. NATHAN HAS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS EVEN THOUGH HE WAS WRACKING THEM JUST A MINUTE AGO. HIS GOVERNMENT UNDERFUNDED RADIO NEW ZEALAND. OH, COME ON. THEY DID. THEY TOTALLY DID. THE CURRENT` IT'S THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT'S ISSUE FOR EDITORIAL OVERSIGHT? NO, HERE IS THE THING. THIS OUTFIT RNZ HAS HAD 15 YEARS OF UNDERFUNDING. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU UNDERFUND AN ORGANISATION FOR SO LONG, THE EXECUTIVES GET EXHAUSTED, THE STAFF NUMBERS ARE WAY DOWN. IN THE END YOU DON'T HAVE OVERSIGHT, AND A MISTAKE LIKE THIS HAPPENS. IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF IT. IF YOU WANT TO DENY IT, THAT'S FINE. WELL, THEY'VE HAD MORE FUNDING. IN THE VERY RECENT TIMES. OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS WE'VE HAD THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT PUT MORE FUNDING IN. A LITTLE BIT. SO HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY YOUR COMMENTS? THIS IS EDITORIAL OVERSIGHT. IT HAS BEEN WOEFUL. THEY HAVE BEEN RUN DOWN SO BADLY THAT THE EXECUTIVES ARE RUNNING AROUND PUTTING OUT FIRES EVERYWHERE. THEN THEY ARE DEALING WITH THE FLOODS, COVID, THE ORGANISATION GETS STRETCHED BEYOND WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE. POOR EXCUSE. IT'S NOT A POOR EXCUSE. IT DOESN'T ENTIRELY EXCUSE IT, BUT EXPLAIN SOME OF THE REASONS THAT HAPPENED. A FACTOR. I WANT TO SWITCH TO MENG FOON. THIS IS A STORY WE'RE HEARING ABOUT THIS MORNING. HIS SURPRISE RESIGNATION, BEFORE BEING SACKED, ESSENTIALLY, FOR FAILING TO DECLARE A RANGE OF INTERESTS INCLUDING MORE THAN $2m FOR THE PROVISION OF EMERGENCY HOUSING. IT SEEMS INCREDIBLE, NATHAN? SO DISAPPOINTING. HE'S BEEN A DISAPPOINTING PERSON IN HIS ROLE AS RACE RELATIONS COMMISSIONER. HE CAME OUT AND SAID THE POLICE WERE RACIST. THAT WAS A TERRIBLE COMMENT. HE DIDN'T REALISE HE NEEDED TO DECLARE A LOT OF HIS BACKGROUND INTERESTS; THAT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE. AS FORMER MINISTER, ACCOUNTABILITY AND CONFLICTS NEED TO BE WELL MANAGED. HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT COMING INTO THE ROLE. HE SHOULD'VE BEEN ADVISED HE SHOULD'VE DECLARED ALL THESE THINGS. THE GOVERNMENT NOW IS LOOKING WOBBLY AND DODGY BECAUSE THERE IS A PATTERN OCCURRING. MICHAEL WOOD, CONFLICT OF INTEREST, KIRI ALLEN, WHO I KNOW AND RESPECT, BUT SHE'S BEEN CAUGHT UP IN THIS POLITICAL SCANDAL WITH MENG FOON. AND THEN WE HAVE TINETTI IN FRONT OF THE PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE. THE LIST GOES ON, STUART NASH. THAT REPORT'S OUT THIS WEEK. THAT SO DISAPPOINTING. ONCE AGAIN, THAT'S NOT THE WAY THAT THE CABINET SHOULD BE OPERATING OR ANY OF MINISTER SHOULD BE OPERATING. RELEASING INFORMATION FROM THE TOP TABLE IN THE COUNTRY, DUMPING ON HIS COLLEAGUES, I THINK THERE IS A REAL PATTERN, AND IT IS A REAL CONCERN. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE I WANT TO TALK ABOUT. WE'LL HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT NEXT TIME. STICK AROUND, BECAUSE WE WILL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. E MURI AKE NEI ` COMING UP NEXT, THE RISK OF ADDICTION TO GAMING LOOT BOXES. BUT FIRST, THE POLLIES DESCEND ON FIELDAYS TO CONVINCE FARMERS TO VOTE FOR THEM THIS OCTOBER. HOKI MAI ANO. WELL, IT'S THE EVENT OF THE YEAR FOR THE FARMING COMMUNITY, AND ELECTION YEAR RAISES FIELDAYS' STAKES EVEN HIGHER. HOPING TO WIN BACK THE RURAL HEARTS IT LOST LAST ELECTION, NATIONAL ARRIVED IN HAMILTON WITH POLICY ANNOUNCEMENTS. ACT MATCHED THEIR ENERGY WITH AN OUTSIZED PRESENCE, AND THERE WAS THE TRADITIONAL, MORE MUTED LOCAL RESPONSE TO LABOUR. I WENT TO FIELDAYS TO TAKE THE PULSE AND HAVE A CHAT TO BOTH CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON. THE FUTURE OF FARMING CAUGHT UP IN A CLOUD OF UNCERTAINTY; CLIMATE CHANGE, EMISSIONS, A RECESSION, ALL ON THE MINDS OF THE 140,000 VISITORS AND ONE RELATIVELY NEW LABOUR PRIME MINISTER. OH, THERE HE IS. HELLO, SIR. ONLY ICE CREAM RECOMMEND BY... WHAT'S HIS NAME? CHRIS HIPKINS. THERE WAS A LITTLE HECKLING. AHEAD OUTSIDE, HAVE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RECEPTIVE? (CHUCKLES) YES, SO FAR. OTHER THAN HIM. YEAH. SO FAR, SO GOOD. AND AN UNHAPPY VOTER. YOU NEED TO MOVE ON. I CAN STAND HERE AND TALK TO HIM. NO, YOU CAN'T. WHY CAN'T I? WHERE'S THE BLOODY NOTICE TO SAY THAT I CAN'T TALK TO THE PRIME MINISTER? IT'S ON THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF ENTRY INTO THE EVENT. NO, IT'S NOT. YES, IT IS. HE DIDN'T GET TO HAVE HIS CHAT TO THE PM. IT WAS NOTHING LIKE THE RECEPTION FOR JACINDA ARDERN LAST YEAR. GO HOME! NO ONE LIKES YOU HERE, (BLEEP). YOU GO HOME! BY AND LARGE, I THINK THE PEOPLE HERE ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND I'M ALL EARS. I'M KEEN TO HEAR ABOUT IT. FIELDAYS IS A PRIME RURAL VOTER OPPORTUNITY AND NATIONAL'S CHRIS LUXON WAS BUSY SPREADING THE BLUE WORD. WOMAN: OH... SORRY, JUST STOP ` WHAT'S THE SCORE? TWO, ONE? (CHUCKLES) OH, PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS VERY FRIENDLY. YEAH. I GET WELL-TREATED AROUND THE COUNTRY. IT'S NICE. GOOD, THANK YOU. HOW ARE YOU, SIR? MAYBE BECAUSE NATIONAL PROMISED TO DELAY MAKING FARMERS PAY FOR METHANE EMISSIONS BY ANOTHER FIVE YEARS. DID YOU DO THAT IN A SORT OF CYNICAL WAY? NO, NOT AT ALL. WHEN YOU ACTUALLY GO IMPOSE A EMISSIONS PRICING REGIME WITHOUT AN ABILITY FOR FARMERS TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, REDUCE THEIR OWN EMISSIONS, THE RISK IS THAT YOU END UP MOVING THAT PRODUCTION THAT FEEDS 40 MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, OFFSHORE TO OTHER PLACES. YOU MAKE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS WORSE AND YOU DESTROY THE NZ ECONOMY AND MAKE KIWIS POORER. ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO STAY WITH THOSE EMISSIONS TARGETS SAY IN 2030? NOT 2050, 2030. YEAH, SO WHEN I TALK TO THE SECTOR, YOU KNOW, IT'S QUITE` THEY FEEL VERY CONFIDENT ABOUT THEIR ABILITY TO DELIVER ON THE METHANE TARGETS FOR 2030. THEY'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK. IS THAT THE KEY THING THAT MAY DECIDE THE RURAL VOTE FOR YOU? WELL, WE'VE BEEN REALLY CLEAR THAT WE DO NEED TO BE PRICING EMISSIONS IN THE PRIMARY SECTOR. WE THINK THAT A PARTNERSHIP APPROACH IS THE WAY THAT WE DO THAT. HE WAKA EKE NOA IS ABOUT BRINGING ALL OF THE PLAYERS TOGETHER AND DESIGNING A SYSTEM THAT WORKS. WE DON'T WANT TO DEFER THAT FOR A POTENTIALLY ANOTHER DECADE, WHICH SEEMS TO BE WHAT THE NATIONAL PARTY ARE PROPOSING. I JUST DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY LEADERSHIP IN THAT AT ALL. SOMETIMES YOUR ROLE AS POLITICAL LEADERS IS TO LEAD, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'RE SHOWING ANY LEADERSHIP IN THE CLIMATE CHANGE SPACE. THANK YOU SO MUCH. GOOD LUCK AND ALL THE BEST. BUT THAT PARTNERSHIP WITH FARMERS, HE WAKA EKE NOA, IS ON SHAKY GROUND. IT DID HAVE BI-PARTISAN SUPPORT UNTIL NATIONAL PULLED OUT. LABOUR IS STILL TRYING TO SEAL THE DEAL. THE ECONOMY'S PRETTY WELL-KNACKERED, REALLY. SO YOU'RE GETTING RUN BY A BUNCH OF TWITS. WE'VE JUST TAKEN ON A BIG SHARE MILKING JOB AND IF THEY DID BRING THAT OUT, IT COULD PUT US UNDER. WELL, I WOULDN'T BE VOTING LABOUR, EITHER. I MEAN, THEY JUST, UM, THEY PISS ME OFF, ACTUALLY. (STAMMERS) THEY SAY A FEW THINGS, BUT THEY CAN'T EVEN FIX OUR ROADS FOR A START. THERE IS A DIFFERENT AND NOT-VERY-POPULAR VIEW. I THINK WE'D BE STUPID TO CHANGE. REALLY? YEAH. A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE SEEM TO DIFFER FROM YOU. THAT'S FINE. I DON'T MIND. I DON'T MIND. BUT I THINK THE THING IS THAT NATIONAL'S PROMISING THINGS, BUT IN THE PAST THEY HAVEN'T REALLY WORKED THROUGH FOR THE WHOLE OF THE COUNTRY ` IT MAY WORK FOR THEM, BUT NOT THE WHOLE OF THE COUNTRY. BUT NATIONAL'S RURAL VOTE COULD BE SPLIT ` NOT WITH LABOUR BUT WITH ACT. THE SMALLER OPPOSITION PARTIES SENSING A PRIME OPPORTUNITY. IF YOU HAD ANY DOUBT THAT ACT WAS AFTER THE FARMING AND THE RURAL VOTE THIS ELECTION, YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THEIR BILLBOARD. THERE IT IS. I MEAN, LOOK AT THAT THING. THEY ALSO BROUGHT THEIR CAMPAIGN BUS AND A LIST OF ISSUES. I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT ` INCLUDING MAORI, OF WHICH I AM NOT ` BUT I AM NOT RACIST, OR MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT, BUT YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE NOW HAVE A SERIOUS ISSUE WITH THE CO-GOVERNANCE. HERE WITH A FARMER... IT WAS A COMFORTABLE HOME CROWD FOR THE NEW ACT CANDIDATE, EX-FEDERATED FARMERS PRESIDENT ANDREW HOGGARD. QUESTION I KEEP GETTING ASKED ALL THE TIME IS WHY HAVE I CHUCKED IN A GOOD PAYING JOB AT FEDS? AND... NOT THAT IT WAS. (CHUCKLES) HE EXPLAINS THEIR EMISSIONS POLICY IN SIMPLE TERMS. OUR POLICY IS IF THE REST OF THE WORLD IS GOING TO DO STUFF, WE WILL DO LIKEWISE. BUT THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEY'RE FOCUSED ON DOING STUFF THAT SUPPORTS THEIR FARMERS. NO OTHER COUNTRY IS FOCUSED ON HOW CAN WE PENALISE OUR FARMERS? DO YOU WANT US TO BE A FOLLOWER, NOT A LEADER IN TERMS OF THIS? I DON'T SEE` WE'RE ALREADY A LEADER THOUGH. WE HAVE THE LOWEST EMISSIONS FOOTPRINT IN THE WORLD. WE DON'T NEED TO GO AND TAX OUR FARMERS WHEN COUNTRIES THAT HAVE LOWER FOOTPRINT` HIGHER FOOTPRINTS THAN US AREN'T EVEN CONSIDERING IT. THEY'RE ONLY LOOKING AT HELPING THEIR FARMERS. WHEN IT COMES TO ACT, CHRIS LUXON WILL NOT BE PUT OFF MESSAGE. HOW MUCH ARE THEY GOING TO EAT INTO THE POSSIBLE FARMING VOTE FOR YOU? WELL, I MEAN, I'M NOT REALLY THAT HUNG UP ON IT. AND IT SOUNDS ODD TO SAY THAT, BUT I MEAN, I'M NOT BECAUSE... THEY'VE GOT THE BIGGEST BILLBOARD HERE, BY THE WAY. BUT I MEAN, IT'S REALLY ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE'RE THINKING ABOUT AGRICULTURE, WE WANT IT TO BE HUGELY SUCCESSFUL FOR THE NEXT 50 YEARS. WE KNOW IT CAN BE. THIS WOULDN'T BE A COMPLETE AGRICULTURAL ROUND-UP WITHOUT THE GREENS. IT'S THE NINTH TIME JAMES SHAW HAS BEEN HERE AND THERE'S ALWAYS A CONVERSATION TO BE HAD ` THIS TIME ABOUT COAL. THE EMISSIONS FROM THAT COULD BE ZERO, BUT... BUT WE DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO DO THAT. IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S A MUCH CHEAPER FORM OF ELECTRICITY. BUT THERE'S NOT AT THE MOMENT. NO, THERE IS. BUT WITH NATIONAL'S EMISSIONS POLICY SEEMINGLY POPULAR, JAMES SHAW IS SURPRISINGLY UPBEAT. THE PEOPLE WHO I TALK TO WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE INDUSTRY HERE WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE... MUCH RATHER THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND OF BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS SO THAT THEY HAD SOME SORT OF CERTAINTY OR PREDICTABILITY, NO MATTER WHO'S IN GOVERNMENT. AND THAT LEADS US BACK TO UNCERTAINTY OVER EMISSIONS AND LABOUR'S CHANCES. I'M HOPEFUL THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO MAKE PROGRESS. I THINK THERE IS STILL A COMMITMENT TO... TO MAKING PROGRESS. WE'LL KEEP WORKING ON THAT. AND UNCERTAINTY FOR THIS 'WET AND WHINY' COUNTRY. AND DO YOU REGRET USING THOSE WORDS THAT YOU USED EARLIER THIS WEEK OF 'WET AND WHINY'? I THINK THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT'S INCREDIBLY WET AND WHINY, AND I THINK IT BLAMES EVERYONE BUT ITSELF FOR THE VERY POOR PERFORMANCE. IT SEEMED TO BE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ALL OF NEW ZEALAND. NO. (STAMMERS) I SAID I'M HERE TO GET OUR MOJO BACK, WAS THE END OF THAT SENTENCE AS WELL. AND THAT'S WHAT I'M HERE TO DO. WELL, HE'S NOT WET OR WHINY ` PR CONSULTANT MATTHEW HOOTON HAS WORKED FOR BOTH NATIONAL AND ACT. THEY ARE THE TWO PARTIES, AS WE SAW THERE, COMPETING FOR DOMINANCE ON THE CENTRE-RIGHT AND RIGHT THIS WEEK IN RURAL NEW ZEALAND, AND HE JOINS US NOW. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. IT'S NICE TO SEE POLITICIANS OUT AND ABOUT IN THE FIELD, TALKING TO PEOPLE, ISN'T IT? WELL, IF WE DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS AN ELECTION THIS YEAR, FROM SEEING SIMON'S PIECE, WE KNOW THERE IS NOW. YEAH. THAT'S WHAT WERE GONNA BE SEEING FOR THE NEXT FOUR MONTHS AS THEY TRY AND WIN OUR VOTES. THE UNOFFICIAL KIND OF STARTING POINT. NOW, THIS RURAL VOTE SEEMS TO BE REALLY IMPORTANT TO ACT'S STRATEGY. IS THIS GOING TO BE A BATTLEGROUND BETWEEN NATIONAL AND ACT? WELL... YES. BUT IT'S ONE OF THE BATTLES BETWEEN NATIONAL AND ACT. THE OTHER ONE, OF COURSE, FALLS TOO THE FREE MARKET, URBAN LIBERALS, I GUESS, LIKE ME. AND IT'S QUITE EXTRAORDINARY WHAT DAVID SEYMOUR HAS ACHIEVED BECAUSE HE IS MANAGING TO GET SORT OF MORE CONSERVATIVE, PROVINCIAL RURAL FARMERS TO SUPPORT ACT. AT THE SAME TIME, IS DOING VERY WELL WITH AUCKLAND AND CHRISTCHURCH AND WELLINGTON LIBERALS. AND, OF COURSE, THE STRENGTH OF THE NATIONAL PARTY SINCE IT WAS FOUNDED HAS BEEN THAT IT HAD TWO WINGS ` THE CONSERVATIVE WING AND THE LIBERAL WING, AND THEY USED TO SAY THAT IT NEEDS BOTH WINGS TO FLY. AND IT WAS ALWAYS SORT OF FELT THAT MAYBE ACT WOULD FOCUS ON ONE OF THOSE, AND IT WOULD TRY AND BECOME LIKE IN AUCKLAND PARTY, IN JUST WIN EPSOM AND TAMAKI, LIKE BROOK VAN VELDEN IS TRYING TO DO, OR IT'S SORT OF WOULD WORRY ABOUT GUNS AND EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEMES OPPOSITION AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, BUT HE'S MANAGED TO DO BOTH. AND THAT MUST BE PRETTY SCARY FOR NATIONAL, BECAUSE IT MAKES ACT A MAINSTREAM PARTY. WELL, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT IMPACT IS THAT HAVING ON NATIONAL? BECAUSE CAN YOU FIGHT ON BOTH FLANKS AND LOOK FOR THE CENTRE AS WELL, WHERE THEY NEED TO FIND VOTES TO BEAT LABOUR? WELL, I MEAN, THE THEORY ALWAYS IS ACT GETS THE RIGHT, AND GREENS GET THE LEFT AND THEN NATIONAL AND LABOUR FIGHT OVER THE CENTRE. BUT NATIONAL HAS A PROBLEM, OR IT PERCEIVES IT HAS A PROBLEM, BECAUSE IT THINKS IT'S GOING TO WIN ABOUT 38 ELECTORATE SEATS. AND IF IT DOES, AND IF ACT GETS 15% OF THE PARTY VOTE, NATIONAL WILL GET FEW, IF ANY, LIST SEATS. AND THAT RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT NICOLA WILLIS, CHRIS BISHOP, GERRY BROWNLEE, PAUL GOLDSMITH, JAMES CHRISTMAS, THEIR NEW HIGH-FLYING LAWYER THAT NEVER TRACKED IT TO THEIR LIST. AND SO NATIONAL SORT OF THINKS OBVIOUSLY IT DOESN'T` WE DON'T GAIN ANYTHING FROM GETTING ACT VOTES, WE ONLY GAIN FROM GETTING LABOUR VOTES, BUT WE DARE NOT ALLOW ACT TO GET UP TO 15% BECAUSE THEN WE MAY BE WITHOUT OUR LIST MPS, AND ALSO, OF COURSE, AT THAT POINT, ACT... ACT'S LONG-TERM GOAL IS TO BE 20% PARTY RIVAL TO NATIONAL. AND NATIONAL KNOWS THAT, AND DOESN'T LIKE IT. AND IT'S WELL ON THE WAY TO GETTING THERE. DAVID SEYMOUR HAS DONE AN EXTRAORDINARY JOB ` I THINK ANYBODY CAN RECOGNISE THAT, NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM. BUT WHY ARE THESE VOTERS AVAILABLE? NEW ZEALAND VOTERS ARE VERY ANGRY WITH THE TWO MAIN PARTIES. THE PURPLE VOTE, THE LABOUR-NATIONAL VOTE, IS THE LOWEST WE'VE EVER SEEN. SIMILARLY IN AUSTRALIA, IT WAS THE LOWEST PURPLE VOTE WE'VE EVER SEEN IN THE PRIMARY VOTE, AND BASICALLY` AND RESEARCH SUPPORTS THIS, AND IT'S HOW WAYNE BROWN GOT ELECTED, I WAS INVOLVED IN THAT MAYOR OF AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE, VOTERS, PERCEIVE THEY HAVE BEEN FED A WHOLE LOT OF BULLSHIT; BY JACINDA ARDERN, 'LET'S DO THIS' AND ALL THAT NONSENSE KINDNESS, BY JOHN KEY, YOU KNOW, THE STEP- CHANGE 'AMBITIOUS FOR NEW ZEALAND' YOU KNOW... AND EVEN TO AN EXTENT BY HELEN CLARK, WITH HER, WHAT WAS IT, THE KNOWLEDGE WAVE AND THESE SORTS OF THINGS. AND VOTERS DO NOT WANT TO BE TREATED LIKE FOOLS ANY LONGER BY THE TWO MAIN PARTIES, AND THAT'S WHY LABOUR HAD TO GET RID OF JACINDA ARDERN, AND GO WITH THE SAUSAGE ROLL GUY. WELL... AND` AND UNFORTUNATELY, CHRISTOPHER LUXON SEEMS TO BE MIMICKING JOHN KEY'S 2008 CAMPAIGN, WHICH WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL. 'I'M AMBITIOUS FOR NEW ZEALAND, BLAH BLAH BLAH.' BUT IF HE CAN'T OFFER ANYTHING MORE THAN SLOGANS, IF HE CAN'T, YOU KNOW, 'WHERE'S THE BEEF?' ESSENTIALLY, THEN MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO TO ACT BECAUSE FOR BETTER OR WORSE, ACT DOES SAY WHAT IT WANTS TO DO. AND PEOPLE... IT'S STRAIGHT-TALKING. AND THE THING IS, A LOT OF THOSE` A LOT OF ACT'S POLICIES, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY NEVER SORT OF RUN INTO REALITY, DO THEY, BECAUSE THEY'VE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A MINOR PARTY. THAT'S RIGHT. SO THAT THE BIG TEST FOR A PARTY LIKE ACT. YES, AND THEY ARE THE BIG DECISION. THE RESEARCH NEWSHUB POLL DOES SUGGEST CURRENTLY THERE WOULD BE A LABOUR-GREEN-MAORI PARTY GOVT. AND THAT IS THE MOST PROBABLE OUTCOME, ACCORDING TO THE NEW ZEALAND HERALD'S POLL OF POLLS, SO WE MIGHT BE GETTING AHEAD OF OURSELVES, BUT IF ACT AND NATIONAL HAD THE NUMBERS TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, ACT KNOWS IT DARE NOT GO BACK TO BEING A POODLE TO NATIONAL, LIKE IT WAS FOR JOHN KEY AND LIKE IT WAS FOR JENNY SHIPLEY. ACT SUPPORTED LEGISLATION THAT ALAMEIN KOPU FROM THE ALLIANCE PARTY SAID SHE WAS HAPPY WITH, AND ACT WOULD GO ALONG WITH THAT. AND ACT DOES WANT TO BE A 20% PARTY AND IT KNOWS IT CANNOT AFFORD TO PROP UP A 'DO NOTHING' JOHN KEY-STYLE GOVERNMENT. SO THEY HAVE COME UP WITH SOME WAYS TO PERHAPS MAKE IT WORK, AND THEIR PREFERENCE, ABSOLUTELY IS A COALITION, BUT ONLY IN A COALITION WITH A GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO DO SOMETHING, NOT... MORE OF THE SAME. ...WORKING GROUPS AND PLATITUDES, YEAH. AND SO JUST FINALLY, WHAT IS THE BIG RISK FOR` OR WHAT IS THE RISK, I SUPPOSE FOR NATIONAL AND ACT IN ALL THIS? NATIONAL'S BIG RISK IS THEIR LEADER, WHO WAS AWAY, OUT OF NEW ZEALAND FOR 16 YEARS. HE LEFT IN '95 WHEN THE ECONOMY WAS GROWING AT 6%, HE MISSED ALL OF THE CREATION OF FONTERRA, ALL OF THE MAJOR TREATY SETTLEMENTS, THE HELEN CLARK GOVERNMENT ` HE CAME BACK AND JOHN KEY IS THE PRIME MINISTER, AND THERE'S EARTHQUAKES IN CHRISTCHURCH. YEAH, HE'S GETTING UP TO SPEED THOUGH. WELL, HE IS, BUT THERE IS A LACK OF CONNECTION AND IT COMES ACROSS AS A LACK OF AUTHENTICITY. FOR ACT, I THINK THEIR RISK IS HUBRIS. THESE ARE YOUNG PEOPLE, BY AND LARGE, THEY ARE HIGHLY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, THEY ARE COMMITTED PEOPLE, AND THEY'VE ENJOYED ENORMOUS SUCCESS OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. THOSE ARE ALL GOOD THINGS OF COURSE, BUT THE COMBINATION OF THEM ALSO CREATES THE RISK OF THE PRIDE BEFORE THE FALL, THE HUBRIS, AND ACT WILL NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO KEEP THEIR FEET ON THE GROUND AND KEEP TALKING COMMON SENSE, LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO. KEEP THAT DISCIPLINE. IT'S BEEN THE MOST DISCIPLINED POLITICAL PARTY WE'VE EVER SEEN IN OUR PARLIAMENT, GIVEN THAT THEY ARE ALL-NEW AND THEY ALL HAVE` A LOT HAVE MET A LOT OF EXTREME VIEWS. THEY'RE A SMALL PARTY ON THE FRINGE BUT THEY HAVE LOOKED AFTER THOSE NEW MPs, AND HAVE THERE HAVE BEN ABSOLUTELY NO SCANDALS OR STUFF-UPS OVER THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS. IT IS TRULY REMARKABLE. WELL, THERE IS SO MUCH TO GO YET. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING AND LENDING YOUR ANALYSIS, MATTHEW HOOTON. PLEASURE. E WHAI AKE NEI ` COMING UP, WE ARE BACK WITH A FRESH FACE ON OUR SECOND POLITICAL PANEL. PLUS, GAMING AND GAMBLING ` THE NEW ADDICTION RISK FOR KIWI KIDS. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. I AM JOINED NOW BY OUR REFRESHED PANEL. WE HAVE BROUGHT IN CEO OF FOREST AND BIRD NICOLA TOKI TO JOIN EDITOR OF NEWSROOM MARK JENNINGS, AND FORMER NATIONAL PARTY MINISTER FOR PRIMARY INDUSTRIES, NATHAN GUY. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR TIME. LET'S JUMP INTO EMISSIONS. NICOLA, SO THIS WEEK, NATIONAL SORT OF GOT THE JUMP, PULLING OUT OF HE WAKA EKE NOA, AGRICULTURE EMISSIONS PRICING KICKED DOWN THE ROAD FOR FIVE YEARS. PURE POLITICS? YEAH, PURE POLITICS AND THE MORE OF THE SAME. WE SEEN THIS IN SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS. AND THE SAD THING TO ME, SO I LIVE IN A SMALL RURAL COMMUNITY, IS ALL WE'RE DOING IS LETTING FARMERS DOWN, RIGHT? WE'VE GOT FARMERS A BREAKING POINT, WE GOT THE SIXTH HIGHEST AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD, WE'VE GOT RIVERS WE CAN'T SWIM IN, AND WHAT FOR, A $20 BLOCK OF CHEESE? IT'S NOT WORKING AND AT SOME POINT THE RUBBER'S GOING TO HAVE TO HIT THE ROAD FOR THOSE FARMERS, AND BY DELAYING IT AND DELAYING IT AND DELAYING IT, WE'RE MAKING IT MORE EXPENSIVE AND MORE STRESSFUL AND WORSE FOR THEM IN THE LONG RUN. WHAT WE NEED IS COURAGE AND SOME LEADERSHIP. RIGHT, SO CHRIS HIPKINS THERE WAS SAYING THAT HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT NATIONAL HAS THE LEADERSHIP IN THE CLIMATE AREA. NATHAN GUY, WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT? I THOUGHT NATIONAL'S EMISSIONS POLICY THIS WEEK, SIMON, WAS FANTASTIC AND IT WAS REALLY WELL-RECEIVED BY FARMERS, AND THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON IN HE WAKA EKE NOA, IN TERMS OF BOUNCING ALONG THE BOTTOM. IT WAS ALL GUNS BLAZING WHEN FARMERS AND INDUSTRY LEADERS KNEW THAT WE WERE GOING INTO THE ETS IN 2025, AND NOW EVEN LABOUR INDICATING THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE INDUSTRY HAVE HAD SOME REAL CONCERNS. WHERE ARE THE TOOLS ABOUT PRICING? IT'S QUITE HARD TO CHANGE BEHAVIOUR INSIDE THE FARM GATE IF YOU CAN'T PROVIDE A TOOLBOX WITH THE TOOLS FOR FARMERS. THAT TECHNOLOGY HASN'T TURNED UP YET. I WAS JUST GONNA SAY, THERE IS NONE DENYING, OR THERE PROBABLY ARE A FEW DENIERS ` BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, IN RURAL COMMUNITIES, THEY REALISE SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE. IT'S ABOUT THE HOW. OK. SO THERE'S OBVIOUSLY DISAGREEMENT ABOUT THE HOW? MARK JENNINGS, DO YOU THINK THAT NATIONAL IS JUST TRYING TO SET ITSELF APART, JUST FOR THE RURAL VOTE? YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN MATTHEW'S VIEWS ON THIS. I THINK THEY ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT ACT. THEY REALLY WANT TO PULL SOME VOTES BACK OFF ACT. BUT, YOU KNOW, 26 YEARS ` I THINK NOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS, KICKING IT DOWN THE TRACK ANOTHER FIVE YEARS, AND EVEN THEN, IT'LL GET KICKED DOWN THE TRACK AGAIN, PROBABLY IF NATIONAL AND ACT ARE IN PLACE. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE TOOLS. SURELY THE TOOLS ARE THERE TO DO SOMETHING. THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THOUGH, ISN'T IT, NATHAN GUY? BECAUSE THERE'S ABOUT 11 DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY CALCULATE ON-FARM EMISSIONS. THIS IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH HE WAKA EKE NOA. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS` YOU ARE RIGHT, THERE'S 11 CALCULATORS. NO ONE COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDS THEIR EMISSIONS. EVERYONE'S MEASURING DIFFERENTLY THROUGH THESE CALCULATOR MODELS. I THINK THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF ROOM TO ACTUALLY MAKE PROGRESS ON THIS. ONE OF THOSE IS MEASURING ON-FARM EMISSIONS, GETTING A DECENT CALCULATOR UNDERWAY. JUST DEFERRING THE PRICING FOR A WHILE TO GIVE EVERYONE COMFORT THAT IT CAN WORK. (ALL CLAMOUR) LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS HERE. BECAUSE WHAT WE'VE GOT IS AN ENTIRE SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY THAT IS REFUSING TO ENGAGE IN THE RULES THAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO DO, WHICH MEANS THE TAXPAYER, IN EFFECT, IS HAVING TO PROP UP THE FARMING INDUSTRY, WHO HAVE SPENT THE LAST YEARS TRYING TO WRITE THEIR OWN EMISSIONS POLICY, TRYING TO PUT THEIR OWN PRICES IN PLACE. IN WHAT OTHER INDUSTRY IN THE COUNTRY DO WE ALLOW THAT? IS THAT FAIR TO THE REST OF NEW ZEALAND? TO SECTOR OFF ONE ELEMENT OF SOCIETY AND SAY THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY BY THE RULES? I DON'T THINK THE AVERAGE NEW ZEALANDER THINKS THAT. THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS THAT... THIS HAS BEEN A PARTNERSHIP WITH INDUSTRY AND GOVERNMENT. YEAH. SO, HOLDING HANDS TOGETHER, IT'S BEEN ROCKY BUT THE HANDS ARE STILL THERE. AND NOT NECESSARILY TOGETHER ` THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY, I THINK, TO WORK MORE CONSTRUCTIVELY TOGETHER. (STAMMERS) OUR LAST POINT ON THIS. YES OR NO, IS HE WAKA EKE NOA DEAD? DO YOU THINK, NATHAN GUY? NO. IT'S NOT? ARE YOU... IT WAS BASICALLY DEAD WHEN IT STARTED BECAUSE IT'S NOT FOCUSED ON THE OUTCOME. WELL, THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY THOUGH, THIS RESEARCH RECENTLY DOES SHOW, HALF OF ALL FARMERS IN NEW ZEALAND DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE TO EMISSIONS REDUCTION. AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS 20 YEARS OF POLITICAL... (MEN CLAMOUR) NATHAN GUY: OH, NO. NO. ...AND BUSINESS LOBBYING. I WANT TO MOVE ON BECAUSE WERE NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE ON THAT ONE. CHRISTOPHER LUXON STARTED OFF THE WEEK WITH THE FARMING EMISSIONS ANNOUNCEMENT, BY USING THE PHRASE 'WET AND WHINY, INWARD-LOOKING.' MARK, WAS THAT A MISTAKE OR DID HE SPEAK THE TRUTH? I THINK HE SPOKE THE TRUTH. EVERYBODY THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO ABOUT IT GOES, 'LOOK, THE GUY IS RIGHT ` HE JUST SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT.' OR HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GOT CAUGHT OUT SAYING IT. THAT'S RIGHT. SO, THIS IS INTERESTING. I DON'T THINK THAT THIS` WHAT LUXON HAS SAID IS GOING TO GO DOWN BADLY AT ALL. I THINK IT WILL PLAY FINE FOR HIM, BECAUSE, ACTUALLY, MOST PEOPLE THAT I TALK TO THINK THE SAME. ALL RIGHT. ALSO, ACTUALLY, DO WE HAVE CONSENSUS ON 'CHRISTOPHER LUXON SPOKE THE TRUTH THIS WEEK'? I THINK PEOPLE ARE GRUMPY, AND PART OF THE REASON THAT THEY ARE GRUMPY IS WE DON'T LIKE CHANGE. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE CHANGE IS COMING AT US WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT. AND SO THAT MAKES PEOPLE ANXIOUS AND NERVOUS. HE IS PLAYING INTO WHAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S TRUE, I DON'T KNOW. I'D LIKE TO SEE A BIT MORE COURAGE. ONE OF THE THINGS, NATHAN, IS THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON MAKES A STATEMENT, AND THEN HE EITHER HAS TO EXPLAIN IT FOR THE REST OF THE WEEK, OR OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT FOR HIM. IS THIS A PROBLEM? NO, HE SHOULD JUST LIVE AND DIE BY HIS CONVICTIONS. HE SHOULD SAY WHAT HE MEANS AND WHAT HE THINKS. AND I RECKON, OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, BEEN REALLY GOOD FOR NATIONAL. I SAW HIM AT THE FIELDAYS, REALLY CONFIDENT, TALKING TO A LOT OF FARMERS. WHEN PEOPLE MEET CHRIS LUXON, THEY LIKE HIM. SO I THINK THAT AS WE MOVE PROPERLY INTO THIS CAMPAIGN, YOU ARE GOING TO SEE CHRISTOPHER LUXON GROW IN CONFIDENCE. OK, WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING. HOW WELL, MARK, WILL CHRIS LUXON DO IN THE WHITE-HOT HEAT OF AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, CAMERAS GOING ALL THE TIME AND EVERY MIC IS HOT? YES. I THINK WITH A CAMERA UP HIS NOSE EVERY MINUTE, HE'S GOING TO COCK UP, PROBABLY. BUT MAYBE THAT'S NOT A BAD THING. HOW ELSE ARE WE GOING TO GET TO KNOW THE REAL CHRIS LUXON? IS THAT THE PROBLEM? IS THAT THE PROBLEM, NICOLA? DO WE KNOW CHRISTOPHER LUXON YET? I WAS STARTING TO GATHER A SENSE OF... I MEAN, TO GIVE HIM HIS DUES, HE'S FIRST-TERM POLITICIAN. YOU KNOW, IT'S A BIG CALL. BUT WHAT I KNOW NEW ZEALANDERS LIKE IS AUTHENTICITY. LIKE PEOPLE WHO TALK WHAT THEY THINK AND SAY WHAT THEY THINK AND CAN SAY IT WITH CONFIDENCE AND CAN ACCEPT WHEN THEY GET IT WRONG. I DON'T THINK HE NEEDS TO OVERTHINK THE WAY HE IS GOING ABOUT THINGS. OK, AND JUST ONE LAST POINT, SO MATTHEW HOOTON WAS SAYING, NATHAN, THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S BEEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY FOR 15 YEARS AND HAS COME BACK AND IS OUT OF TOUCH AND HASN'T BEEN PART OF THE PROCESS. NATHAN: RUBBISH, RUBBISH. WHY, YOU CAN'T JUST BREEZE IN AND SAY 'HEY, I'M BACK EVERYBODY! I'M BACK AND I'M GOING TO BE PM.' IF YOU'RE OFFSHORE FOR A WHILE, THAT IS NOT A HUGE THING. IN A WAY, IT'S A GOOD THING, I BELIEVE, BECAUSE YOU BRING THE KNOWLEDGE BACK INTO OUR COUNTRY, YOU BRING THAT EXPERIENCE WITH THE INDIVIDUAL. I'M NOT AT ALL CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, SO I DISAGREE WITH MATTHEW HOOTON. WE DISAGREE AND AGREE ON A FEW THINGS, BUT THAT PARTICULAR STATEMENT I DISAGREE WITH. OK, AND FINALLY, MARK, DO YOU THINK THAT'S AN ISSUE FOR CHRIS LUXON, HE'S BEEN AWAY? I AGREE WITH NATHAN. IT'S RUBBISH, BEING OUT OF THE COUNTRY. I DON'T THINK THAT'S A THING AT ALL. ALL RIGHT. NICOLA? NICOLA: NO, I THINK WE` NAH, NOT A PROBLEM. GREAT! MORE CONSENSUS AROUND THE TABLE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, NICOLA TOKI, MARK JENNINGS AND NATHAN GUY. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. THE VIDEO GAME SECTOR IS NOW ONE OF THE MOST PROFITABLE FORMS OF ENTERTAINMENT IN THE WORLD ` WORTH HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS. AND 70% OF KIWIS ARE GAMERS. BUT EXPERTS WARN THAT GAMING AND GAMBLING ARE MERGING, AND GAMBLING WITHIN GAMES IS HARMING OUR KIDS. IT'S A LOOPHOLE AUSTRALIA HAS MOVED TO REGULATE AND WE HAVE NOT. DIGITAL EDITOR FINN HOGAN HAS MORE. BIGGER THAN MOVIES AND MUSIC COMBINED, THE VIDEO GAME SECTOR IS A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR GLOBAL BEHEMOTH. (JUBILANT MUSIC) AND OUR GOVERNMENT HAS SAID GAME ON, OFFERING NEW SUBSIDIES FOR DEVELOPERS IN BUDGET 2023. BUT NOT EVERYONE PLAYING GAMES ENDS UP A WINNER. OVER LOCKDOWN, NORTH SHORE LOCAL LI'S SON BEGAN USING HIS PARENTS CREDIT CARDS TO SPEND ON IN-GAME PURCHASES CALLED LOOT BOXES. SO HOW MUCH MONEY DID YOUR SON SPEND ON LOOT BOXES? AND WHEN LEE TRIED TO STOP HIM, THINGS TOOK A DARK TURN. HE HURT HIMSELF WHEN YOU CUT HIM OFF FROM YOUR CREDIT CARD? WE'RE SEEING GAMES THAT ARE INCREASINGLY INCLUDING SIMULATED GAMBLING OR LOOT BOXES THAT VERY MUCH RESEMBLE GAMBLING. AND IT IS CONCERN BECAUSE IT SERVES TO NORMALISE GAMBLING. BUT IT'S ALSO CAN BE REALLY PROBLEMATIC. AVAILABLE IN MANY OF THE WORLD'S MOST POPULAR VIDEO GAMES, LOOT BOXES ENABLE PLAYERS TO SPEND REAL MONEY ON DIGITAL PRIZES, AND FOR SOME, THEY CAN BE ADDICTIVE. WE GET PARENTS CALLING US, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE AT CRISIS POINT BECAUSE THEIR CHILD IS GAMING AND THEY'VE DISCOVERED THEY'RE SPENDING LOTS OF MONEY ON LOOT BOXES, MICRO-TRANSACTIONS WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. AND, YOU KNOW, WE JUST DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS PROBLEM BECOMING WORSE. AND STAFF AT ASIAN FAMILY SERVICES SAY THE PROBLEM IS SURGING. YEAH, WE DO HAVE A` SINCE 2020 AND 2021, WE DO SEE TRIPLE OF REFERRALS FROM GAMING-RELATED HARM AS WELL FOR YOUNG PEOPLE REFUSING TO GO TO SCHOOL AND SOME OF VIOLENCE BEHAVIOURS AMONG FAMILIES. SINCE LOOT BOXES AND GAMES AREN'T TECHNICALLY GAMBLING UNDER NZ LAW, THERE IS NO FUNDING FOR ANY HARM CAUSED. IT'S ALMOST LIKE COMPETING WITH THE INDUSTRY. THE GAMING INDUSTRY WILL HAVE A BILLION DOLLARS AND OUR POOR NGOS AND THE GOVERNMENT SECTOR ONLY HAVE, I DON'T KNOW, TINY, EVEN ONE DROP OF THE OCEAN, TO COMPETE AT THAT ONLINE SPACE. AND ADVOCATES WORRY WE COULD BE CREATING A NEW GENERATION OF GAMBLERS. WE'RE GOING TO SEE A WHOLE LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE DEVELOPING PROBLEMS. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A PATHWAY BETWEEN PROBLEMATIC GAMING AND PROBLEM GAMBLING AS WELL. AND EMERGING EVIDENCE SUGGESTS IT COULD ALREADY BE HAPPENING. WE FIND THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE AT SORT OF INITIAL PERIOD OF DATA COLLECTION THAT HAVE BEEN PURCHASING LOOT BOXES SIX MONTHS LATER, THOSE PEOPLE TEND TO BE PURCHASING TRADITIONAL GAMBLING PRODUCTS AT A HIGHER RATE THAN PEOPLE WHO AREN'T. GAME COMPANIES THAT PROVIDE LOOT BOXES ARGUE THAT SINCE THEY DON'T ALLOW PLAYERS TO SELL THE CONTENTS FOR REAL MONEY, THEY SHOULDN'T QUALIFY AS GAMBLING. BUT UNOFFICIAL WEBSITES CAN AND DO. EARLIER THIS YEAR, AN ITEM IN POPULAR SHOOTER CSGO SOLD FOR MORE THAN $500,000. THE MOST EXPENSIVE ITEM TO EVER COME FROM A LOOT BOX IS WORTH MORE THAN $2m. REAL MONEY IN AND REAL MONEY OUT. WHEN YOU HAVE ISSUES OF GAMBLING-LIKE MECHANISMS CRASHING UP AGAINST, YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY UNDERAGE USERS, WHICH THE LARGEST SORT OF PLAYER BASE STILL HAPPENS TO BE UNDERAGE USERS IN AOTEAROA. I THINK THAT'S A SERIOUS CONCERN. YOU KNOW, REGULATING THOSE IN SOME WAY IN A SENSIBLE, CAREFUL WAY IS SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO CONSIDER. THE AUSTRALIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS DRAFTED A NATIONWIDE LAW, MEANING ANY GAME CONTAINING LOOT BOXES WOULD RECEIVE AN M RATING AND ANY GAME WITH EVEN SIMULATED GAMBLING WOULD BECOME R18. OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE BELGIUM HAVE GONE FURTHER, BANNING LOOT BOXES OUTRIGHT, AN APPROACH INDUSTRY HERE SAYS GOES TOO FAR. IT'S DEFINITELY A VERY HEAVY-HANDED MOVE, BUT ANY KIND OF, YOU KNOW, TOOL OR LABELLING SYSTEM THAT ENABLES PARENTS TO MAKE MORE INFORMED DECISIONS, YOU KNOW, THE INDUSTRY HAS ALWAYS BEEN REALLY SUPPORTIVE OF. I THINK THE CHALLENGE COMES IN WHERE THOSE RATINGS OR THOSE CLASSIFICATION SYSTEMS ARE ULTIMATELY MAKING THE DECISIONS FOR THE CONSUMER. IN NEW ZEALAND, LOOT BOXES HAVE BEEN ON GOVERNMENT'S RADAR, WITH THEN-MINISTER OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS TELLING NEWSHUB NATION IN 2018... YEAH, LOOT BOXES AGAIN. RIGHT NOW, UNFORTUNATELY THEY'RE NOT COVERED BY OUR GAMBLING LAWS. IT LOOKS A LOT LIKE GAMBLING, BUT THEY JUST DON'T MEET THE CRITERIA. AND THAT'S BECAUSE OUR GAMBLING LAWS ARE OUTDATED. WE ASKED NOW-MINISTER BARBARA EDMONDS WHEN MARTIN'S 2018 GAMBLING ACT REVIEW WOULD BE COMPLETED. BUT HALF A DECADE LATER, HER OFFICE SAYS WORK IS STILL ONGOING, WITH NO COMMITMENT ON WHEN WE'LL SEE RESULTS. LOOK, I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING BEFORE THINGS REALLY DO GET OUT OF CONTROL. I THINK OUR GAMBLING ACT IS, YES, ABSOLUTELY OUT OF DATE. IT'S NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE. SO THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AND IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN REALLY SOON. FINN HOGAN WITH THAT REPORT. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND KITTY WASASALA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023