CAPTIONS BY SEAN LYDIARD AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY — PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS IS EN ROUTE TO CHINA FOR A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT XI JINPING. WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR BIGGEST TRADING PARTNER? AND COME OCTOBER, WHAT ARE THE CHANCES TE PATI MAORI MIGHT PICK UP ANOTHER ELECTORATE? I THINK THIS TIME ROUND, IT'S— WE'RE A LOT MORE KNOWN — PEOPLE HAVE SEEN OUR PERFORMANCE IN THE HOUSE, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE EXCITEMENT. BUT FIRST THIS MORNING, WE WANT TO CATCH YOU UP ON THE EVENTS IN RUSSIA OVERNIGHT. AFTER MEMBERS OF RUSSIA'S MERCENARY ORGANISATION — THE WAGNER GROUP — TOOK OVER SEVERAL RUSSIAN CITIES AND THREATENED THE RUSSIAN CAPITAL. YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, THE LEADER OF THE WAGNER GROUP, HAD CALLED FOR AN ARMED REBELLION AGAINST THE RUSSIAN MILITARY. BUT IN A DEAL NEGOTIATED BY THE BELARUS PRESIDENT, PRIGOZHIN HAS NOW TOLD HIS FIGHTERS TO STAND DOWN. LAST NIGHT, RUSSIA'S PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN MADE A TELEVISED ADDRESS, IN WHICH HE VOWED HARSH PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE INVOLVED IN WHAT HE CALLED MUTINY. ALTHOUGH THE IMMEDIATE THREAT OF CIVIL CONFLICT MIGHT HAVE PAST, AS PART OF THE DEAL TO STAND DOWN, THE WAGNER GROUP LEADER AND HIS FIGHTERS HAVE BEEN GUARANTEED IMMUNITY, BUT THE INCIDENT COULD HAVE MAJOR IMPLICATIONS FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE. IT'S JUST GONE MIDNIGHT IN MOSCOW, UPDATES THROUGHOUT THE DAY ON THE ONE NEWS WEBSITE. WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE EQUAL? HEALTH OFFICIALS THIS WEEK CONFIRMED THAT ETHNICITY IS NOW ONE OF MANY FACTORS BEING CONSIDERED AS PART OF AN ALGORITHM TO PRIORITISE SURGERIES. BUT INSTEAD OF JUST FOCUSING ON THE 'IS IT RACIST?' DEBATE THIS WEEK ON Q+A, GIVEN THE FOCUS ON EQUALITY, WE WANTED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT ONE OF THE KEY WAYS WE MAP DEPRIVATION AND POPULATION TRENDS, SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND THE MAKEUP OF AND DISPARITIES BETWEEN OUR DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES. THE CENSUS. THE LAST CENSUS IN 2018 WAS A DEBACLE. THE FORMER BOSS OF STATISTICS NEW ZEALAND RESIGNED AFTER AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW FOUND IT WAS OVERLY COMPLEX AND INEFFECTIVE WITH UNACCEPTABLY LOW RESPONSE RATES, PARTICULARLY IN MAORI AND PASIFIKA COMMUNITIES. IT'S NOW THREE AND A HALF MONTHS SINCE THIS YEAR'S CENSUS DAY, BUT DESPITE CHANGING THE STRATEGY, INVESTING IN COMMUNITY OUTREACH, AND LOWERING THE OVERALL RESPONSE TARGETS, THE LATEST DATA SHOWS MORE THAN HALF A MILLION PEOPLE STILL HAVEN'T COMPLETED THEIR INDIVIDUAL CENSUS DECLARATIONS. NOW, A NOTE, THESE ARE RAW FIGURES BASED ON THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE RETURNED A FORM. THEY ARE NOT THE OFFICIAL FIGURES, BUT AT THIS STAGE OF THE PROCESS IT'S THE BEST INFORMATION WE CAN ACCESS. THE CENSUS OFFICIALLY CLOSES IN FIVE DAYS, AND THIS IS HOW IT'S SHAPING UP. AT A REGIONAL LEVEL, ALL OF THE SOUTH ISLAND HAS HIT THE GOVERNMENT'S 90% TARGET FOR RESPONSES. BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT STORY IN THE NORTH ISLAND — NO DISTRICT HAS HIT 90% AS OF THURSDAY AFTERNOON. NORTHLAND AND HAWKES BAY HAVE THE LOWEST TURNOUTS BY REGION. AND IF WE ZOOM IN TO AUCKLAND, WE CAN SEE SOUTH AUCKLAND AND IF WE ZOOM IN TO AUCKLAND, WE CAN SEE SOUTH AUCKLAND HAS SOME OF THE LOWEST RATES FOR CENSUS COMPLETION. BUT WHAT ABOUT ETHNICITY? MAORI AND PASIFIKA ADVOCATES HAVE WARNED THERE STILL WASN'T ENOUGH COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT THIS YEAR. HAVE A LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. FOR MAORI ACROSS NEW ZEALAND, ONE IN FOUR HAVE YET TO RETURN THEIR INDIVIDUAL CENSUS. FOR PASIFIKA COMMUNITIES THE NUMBER IS ONLY MARGINALLY BETTER. GOING FROM THESE NUMBERS, THE GOVERNMENT HAS IMPROVED ON THE NUMBERS FIVE YEARS AGO, BUT IT STILL NEEDS 60,000 INDIVIDUALS TO FILL IN THEIR FORMS THIS WEEK IN ORDER TO HIT ITS TARGET. SHORTLY WE'LL SPEAK TO THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE. BUT FIRST, REPORTER IRRA LEE LOOKS AT THE HOME STRAIGHT PUSH. COME FOR THE KAI... STAY FOR THE CENSUS. IF IT WASN'T FOR MANUREWA MARAE, COMING OUT TO BRING OUT, YOU KNOW, THE HANGIS, THE COFFEE, THE DOUGHNUTS, BOUNCY CASTLES AT THE PARKS, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK A LOT OF US WOULD ACTUALLY COME OUT OF OUR HOUSES. THE BIG PUSH TO GET PEOPLE TO DO THEIR CENSUS HAS FINISHED, BUT STATS NEW ZEALAND HAS ASKED MANUREWA MARAE ALONGSIDE OTHER WHANAU ORA PROVIDERS, TO TARGET THOSE HARDEST TO REACH. I REMEMBER OPENING UP THE ENVELOPE AND JUST SEEING ALL THESE PAPERS, AND I WAS LIKE, 'NO!' (LAUGHS) THE ONLY THING THAT'S REALLY STOPPED ME FROM FILLING IN THE CENSUS... IS JUST FEAR. WE KNOW THAT OUR CENSUS NUMBER OUT HERE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND ARE VERY LOW. THROUGHOUT COVID, WE RAN EVENTS EXACTLY LIKE THIS AND IT BROUGHT OUR FAMILIES AND COMMUNITY OUT AND THEY GOT VACCINATIONS DONE. AFTER A LOW TURNOUT IN THE BOTCHED 2018 CENSUS, TE WHATU ORA SAYS COUNTIES MANUKAU LOST $130 MILLION IN HEALTH FUNDING. IT'S SOMETHING PACIFIC HEALTH PROVIDERS, SOUTH SEAS, KNOWS ALL TOO WELL. WE WANT ALL THE RESOURCES TO COME TO THESE SORT OF COMMUNITIES. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DO BETTER, IS ACTUALLY EXPLAIN THE IMPORTANCE OF FILLING OUT THE FORMS. IN MANUKAU, PEOPLE WHO COMPLETED THEIR CENSUS EARN POINTS TO PUT TOWARDS FUNDRAISING FOR SCHOOLS AND CHURCHES, WITH MONEY COMING FROM LOCAL BUSINESSES. AS WELL AS GETTING 3000 PEOPLE TO FILL OUT THE CENSUS, JUST UNDER 500 GOT VACCINATED. THERE'S A TRUST ISSUE WITH OUR PEOPLE — YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOUR INFORMATION IS GOING; WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS TRUE. SO, OUR EXPERIENCE AS A COMMUNITY SORT OF PROVIDER IS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T ALSO FOCUS ON THAT PARTICULAR THING — FOR EXAMPLE, THE CENSUS — IT HAS TO BE A WHOLE FAMILY COMMUNITY, EVENTS. BUT THE APPROACH HAS RAISED EYEBROWS AMONG OPPOSITION MPS. DOES THE MINISTER BELIEVE THAT IT'S FAIR THAT PEOPLE WHO COMPLETED THEIR CENSUS ON TIME GOT NO REWARDS WHILE THOSE WHO DIDN'T COMPLETE THEIR CENSUS ON TIME RECEIVE REWARDS FOR DOING SO? THE COSTS FOR THE CENSUS HAVE SWELLED FROM THE $210 MILLION ANNOUNCED THREE YEARS AGO, TO CLOSE TO $320 MILLION. ALL: # TUTIRA MAI NGA IWI... # SOME OF THAT MONEY WENT INTO EXTRA ADVERTISING, MORE STAFF AND EFFORTS IN CYCLONE-HIT AREAS. AT LEAST $175,000 WAS SPENT ON SUPERMARKET AND PETROL VOUCHERS FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. BUT ORGANISATIONS SAY THE COSTS CAN BE MINIMAL IF EFFORTS ARE TAILORED TO EACH COMMUNITY FROM THE START. YEP, THERE IS MONEY BEHIND THIS, BUT THE BIGGER PICTURE IS IS ACTUALLY SEEING OUR FAMILIES COME OUTSIDE HERE. IN A FEW HOURS, MANUREWA MARAE COLLECTED DOZENS OF FORMS IN RANDWICK PARK. WHANAU, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU DO GO INTO THEIR SPACE, ESPECIALLY THEIR LIVING SPACES, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTRUSIVE TO THEM. THEY WOULD HAVE GOT SO MANY KNOCKS ON THE DOORS FOR PEOPLE TO, YOU KNOW, FOR THEM TO FILL THEIR FORMS OUT. SO LET'S NOT CONTINUE TO DO THAT AND LET'S DO EVENTS LIKE THIS. THERE WAS NO BARRIERS ONCE WE STARTED ENGAGING WITH STATS NEW ZEALAND, THEY COULD HAVE COME AND SAID, 'NO, THIS IS HOW WE WANT TO DO IT'. BUT BASED ON OUR EXPERIENCE, WE ACTUALLY SAID, 'LOOK, THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO'. I MEAN, 3000 IN THREE DAYS, IT'S NOT A BAD RECORD. I MEAN, 3000 IN THREE DAYS, IT'S NOT A BAD RECORD. IMAGINE WHAT WE COULD HAVE DONE A BIT LONGER. THAT'S IRRA LEE REPORTING. IN CHARGE OF THIS YEAR'S CENSUS IS THE MINISTER FOR STATISTICS, DEBORAH RUSSELL. KIA ORA. WITH FIVE DAYS TO GO, WILL THE GOVERNMENT HIT ITS TARGET? I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE WHO HAS COMPLETED THE CENSUS — IT IS IMPORTANT DATA. WE ARE SITTING AT 89% FOR THE COUNTRY, WHETHER WE GET TO THE 90%, WE WILL SEE. WE HAD 92% OF HOUSEHOLDS RETURN, BUT WERE NOT GOING TO HAVE A FINAL COUNT UNTIL WE'VE DONE THE POST— SURVEY, WHICH WE CAN'T REPORT UNTIL NEXT YEAR. YOU NEED 60,000 PEOPLE TO RETURN FORMS THIS WEEK, GIVEN THE TRAJECTORY AT THE MOMENT, DO YOU THINK IT IS LIKELY? THAT IS JUST THE RAW RATE, AND WE CAN MAKE UP DATA IN OTHER WAYS, WHICH WE ARE PLANNING TO DO. WHETHER OR NOT WE GET TO THE 90%, IS A MOOT POINT. YOU ARE THE MINISTER, WILL YOU HIT IT? WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE — THAT IS NOT THE COVERAGE RATE, AND THAT IS THE ONE THAT MATTERS. WHAT IS YOUR EXPECTATION AS THE MINISTER? WILL WE HIT THE TARGET? I HAVE BEEN WATCHING THE NUMBERS VERY CLOSELY, AND IT IS THE COVERAGE RATE THAT MATTERS. DOES THAT MEAN NO? IT MEANS WE ARE AWAITING THE LAST FEW DAYS — WE HAVE A FEW DAYS TO GO. WHY IS IT SUCH A CLOSE CALL? YOUR RIGHT IT IS A CLOSE CALL, WE HAD HOPED TO GET OVER THE 90% BEFORE NOW — A COUPLE OF REASONS, CYCLING GABRIEL BLUE RIGHT THROUGH THE CENSUS COLLECTION WHICH MADE A DIFFERENCE. AND AS YOU POINTED OUT, WE'VE HAD LOW RESPONSE RATES FROM MAORI AND PASIFIKA COULD PICK COMMUNITIES. THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR THAT — TALKING TO OUR PASIFIKA COMMUNITIES, THERE HAS BEEN CONCERNS AROUND UNDERSTANDING, BY HAVING SOMEONE WITH THEM TOUT THEM UNDERSTAND. DO YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE DONE MORE? GIVEN THAT WE HAVEN'T GOT THE RESPONSE RATE WE NEED IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, IT'S ABOUT 79%, OBVIOUSLY WE NEED TO DO MORE, THAT IS A STRAIGHTFORWARD EVALUATION OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED. IT IS EASY TO BE WISE IN HINDSIGHT, PERHAPS WE COULD HAVE VISITED MORE CHURCHES EARLIER, THESE WILL BE ONE OF THE THINGS WE EVALUATE, IN THE EVALUATION PHASE OF THE CENSUS. MAORI WAS EVEN LOWER THAN PASIFIKA — WHY? A LOT OF WORK WENT INTO WORKING WITH MAORI, WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH IWI, WE HAVE TRIED OUTREACH THROUGH MAORI, AS TO WHY INDIVIDUAL MAORI HAVE NOT AT ABLE TO ENGAGE, WE WILL FIND OUT, BUT THAT IS IN LINE WITH DECLINING PARTICIPATION WORLDWIDE. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR JOB ON THE TARGET? CORRECTION: STAKE YOUR JOB. THE LAST THING I PLAN TO DO IS UNDERMINE THE CENSUS, SO WHEN I WAS ASKED, I HAD TO THINK ABOUT THAT — AND THE LAST THING I WANTED TO DO WAS NOT EXPRESS CONFIDENCE. I REMAIN CONFIDENT WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN. WILL YOU STAND DOWN? I WAS EXPRESSING EVERY CONFIDENCE I COULD. WILL YOU STAND DOWN? I AM NOT GOING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION. YOU ARE TRYING TO ITS PRESS CONFIDENCE, YOU ARE THE MINISTER — WILL YOU STAKE YOUR JOB? I AM CONFIDENT— WILL YOU STAKE YOUR JOB? WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT TARGET IS, AND I WILL NOT STAKE MY JOB. SO WHAT HAS CHANGED? IN TERMS OF WHAT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED. YOU HAD SAID YOU WOULD STAKE YOUR JOB— I WAS EXPRESSING CONFIDENCE IN THE PROCESS, EXPRESSING CONFIDENCE IN THE COVERAGE RATE. BUT NOT IN THE OVERALL RETURN RATE? THAT IS A RAW NUMBER, A TALLY RATE. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT YOU WILL ANSWER THAT QUESTION, AS CLEARLY AS YOU DID ON THAT DAY, BUT NOT HERE. WHY HAVE YOU CHANGED POSITION? THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD ONE WORD TO DESCRIBE IS OF USE OF I WAS EXPRESSING CONFIDENCE. ARE YOU NO LONGER DOING THAT? I'M NOT GOING T0 BET ON A RESULT WE DON'T HAVE. WE HAVE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE DATA AND THE RAW RATE — I BELIEVE YOU'LL GET A GOOD DATASET. 10 YEARS AGO, WE HAD A SIMILAR TURNOUT, AND I APPRECIATE WE'RE STILL WAITING ON THOSE NUMBERS. WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE THOSE DATES? SO MUCH HAS CHANGED IN THE INTERVENING 10 YEARS — WORLDWIDE THERE IS A DECLINING RATE OF RESPONSE TO CENSUS, WE ARE NOT THE ONLY BUREAU CAUGHT UP IN THAT. PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, THROUGH THE RISE OF MISINFORMATION, WE AC DECLINING TRUST IN GOVERNMENT. YOU HAD BEEN WARNED ABOUT OUTREACH WITH THESE COMMUNITIES, DT RESPONSE BILLY FOR THE LOW RATES OF RETURN? IN REGARD TO THOSE RETURN RATES, WE HAVE DONE A LOT TO CONNECT— LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS THAT AS A STAND, THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I THINK THEY CAN GIVE US A BASIS FOR A GOOD HEAD COUNT. WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO BE HIGHER. AND TO GET TO AN ACCEPTABLE OVERALL RATE, WE NEED TO USE ADMINISTRATIVE DATA, WE HAVE A BETTER RESULT THAN 2018, AND NOW WE CAN GO TO OTHER DATA SOURCES. UNLIKE 2018, THE MODEL IS DESIGNED AROUND USING THOSE OTHER SOURCES. BUT IS A 75% RATE FROM MAORI ACCEPTABLE? IT IS A DISAPPOINTING RATE, WE CONSULTED WITH MAORI WHEN DESIGNING THE CENSUS. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THOSE NUMBERS HIGHER, ONLY TO GO BACK TO STATS NZ AND CONSIDERABLE WE MIGHT DO BETTER. DO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY? WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO BETTER NEXT TIME. THE OVERALL COST WAS $317 MILLION — IN TERMS OF RESULTS, WHAT HAVE WE GOT IN TERMS OF THE ADDITIONAL SPEND? IT HAS COST MORE THIS TIME ROUND, PARTLY BECAUSE LAST TIME AROUND, WE GOT HIGHER WITH A LOWER SPEND, THE NEXT 10% ARE HARDER TO GET — SO IT COST MORE TO GET EACH HIGHER CHUNK— ECHELON. IN TERMS OF THAT, A RESPONSE RATE IS GOOD ENOUGH WHEN WE COMBINE IT WITH ADMINISTRATIVE DATA, THAT WILL GET US TO 97% COVERAGE RATE. WE WILL HAVE A GOOD DATASET. WHY IS IT FAIR THAT PEOPLE GET PAID FOR DOING THE CENSUS LATE? YOU ARE REFERRING TO INCENTIVES? IS THAT FAIR — THAT PEOPLE GET INCENTIVES FOR DOING IT LATE? OUR OBJECTIVE IS TO GET THE BEST POPULATION COUNT BECAME, IN MANY OF US JUST DO THE CENSUS — IT IS WHAT WE DO. IS IT FAIR THAT PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DO THAT GET INCENTIVES. WE DECIDED IN APRIL, THAT IT WAS TIME TO START ROLLING OUT INCENTIVES. THAT WAS ALWAYS THE PLAN, TO USE THE ORDINARY PROCESS — IS IT FAIR. WE NEED A GOOD DATASET, WE NEED TO ACHIEVE IT BY ANY MEANS WE CAN, EMPLOYING MANY— IS IT FAIR? MOST OF US DO NOT NEED AN INCENTIVE. IT IS NOT A PAYMENT, IT ENCOURAGED COMMUNITIES TO COME IN. TAKE THE WARRIORS PROMOTION FOR EXAMPLE, IN TERMS OF THAT PROMOTION— YOU JUST GIVING EXAMPLES FROM THE INCENTIVES. AS IT FAIR? WE NEEDED A GOOD DATASET — WE HAD TO EMPLOY A LOT OF METHODS TO ACHIEVE IT. NOW WE ARE TO SEND OUT NOTICES, LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY ARE LIABLE FOR PROSECUTION. DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE WILL BE PROSECUTED? STATISTICS NZ DOES THAT, NOT MINISTERS. CONSIDERING THE NUMBER WHO HAVE NOT DONE IT, WILL THEY FACE PROSECUTION? STATISTICS NEW ZEALAND HAS TOLD ME THAT THEY LOOK FOR PEOPLE — IT IS PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTIVELY DISCOURAGED OTHERS FROM DOING IT, OR HAVE REFUSED IN AN AGGRESSIVE WAY, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTED AS BARRIERS TO OTHER PEOPLE DOING IT. SUCH AS A BOARDINGHOUSE MANAGER WHO DOES NOT DISTRIBUTE FORMS. AT HOW MANY EVENTS, ARE YOU AWARE OF, THAT STATS NZ STAFF HAVE INCENTIVISED GANG MEMBERS? IN TERMS OF THOSE HARD TO REACH COMMUNITIES, WE HAD TO WORK WITH THE WHOLE OF COMMUNITY GROUPS. CONSIDERING THE NUMBER OF EVENTS WHERE WE WANTED TO COUNT GANG MEMBERS, THERE WAS MAYBE HALF A DOZEN. THERE WAS AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW AFTER THE LAST CENSUS, FOR THERE BE ANOTHER? OF COURSE. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW, BUT THERE WILL BE A POST CENSUS EVALUATION, AND CONSIDERATION OF WHETHER WE SHOULD ENGAGE WITH THIS AGAIN. TAX POLICY IS PLAYING A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN THE SELECTION, I'M SURE YOU ARE THRILLED, AS A TAX EXPERT OF SORTS — WHAT ROLE YOU PLANNING ON DEVELOPING THE POLICY? I'LL TAX POLICY WILL BE RELEASED BEFORE THE ELECTION, A TAX POLICY COMES FROM THE PARTY NOT THE MINISTERS. A LOOK THROUGH YOUR BOOK RECENTLY, YOU SAID, ' WE SHOULD SMILE WHEN WE PAY OUR TAXES.' DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT? YES, TAX IS WHAT WE NEED TO PAY TO LIVE IN A DECENT SOCIETY. WHAT YOU THINK OF THE GREENS TAX POLICY? EIGHT IS INTERESTING, BUT IT DOES NOT ALLOW FOR BEHAVIOURAL RESPONSES. IT IS TIME TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT FIXING ONE OF THE REMAINING INEQUITIES IN THE TAX SYSTEM, THAT IS FROM YOU. HAS ANYTHING CHANGED TOWARD A COMPREHENSIVE CAPITAL GAINS TAX WITHIN THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THAT THEY SUPPORT IT ON PAPER, ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE TRIED THREE TIMES AS A LABOUR PARTY TO PUT FORWARD A COMPREHENSIVE CAPITAL GAINS TAX, AND EACH TIME WE HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO GET ACROSS THE LINE. IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE PEOPLE SAY THEY SUPPORT IT, BUT THEY ARE NOT SO CERTAIN WHEN THEY REALISE IT MIGHT AFFECT THEM PERSONALLY. HAS IT CHANGED? THERE HAS BEEN SOME SHIFT IN SENTIMENT, WHETHER IT HAS BEEN ENOUGH TO SUPPORT A REALITY IS A DIFFERENT MATTER. HAVE YOU HEARD ANYMORE FROM MENG FOON THIS WEEK. I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO HIM PERSONALLY SINCE I WAS GIVEN THE DELEGATION TO LOOK INTO HIS CONFLICT OF INTEREST, SO I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO HIM IN PERSON AS IT MAY CONFLICT THE PROCESS. BUT I WISH HIM WELL. AFTER THE BREAK — IS CHINA'S PRESIDENT A DICTATOR? JOE BIDEN SAYS YES. CHRIS HIPKINS SAYS NO. BUT WHAT LINE WILL HE WALK ON HIS FIRST OFFICIAL TRIP TO CHINA AS PRIME MINISTER? AS WE GO TO AIR THIS MORNING, CHRIS HIPKINS IS MIDAIR EN ROUTE TO BEIJING FOR MEETINGS WITH THE CHINESE PRESIDENT AND OTHER SENIOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS. IT'S HIS FIRST TRIP TO CHINA AS PRIME MINISTER AND COMES IN THE SAME WEEK AS THE U.S PRESIDENT DESCRIBED THE CHINESE COUNTERPART AS A DICTATOR. ALEX TAN IS A PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY. WELCOME. WHAT WILL THE PRIME MINISTER BE HOPING TO ACHIEVE ON HIS FIRST OFFICIAL TRIP TO BEIJING? I THINK WHAT HE WANTS TO ACHIEVE HIS FOCUS ON THE TRADE AND ECONOMIC ISSUES. AS YOU KNOW CHINA IS OUR LARGEST TRADING PARTNER AND IT HAS BEEN A SUBSTANTIAL SOURCE IN THE PAST FOR TOURISM, STUDENTS AND WITH THE ECONOMIC ELEMENTS THAT WE ARE FACING IT AS PART OF A FORMULA, I SUPPOSE, IT'S BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS. THAT MIGHT BE THE EASIER THINGS FOR CHRIS HIPKINS TO FOCUS ON. THERE HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANT GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS BETWEEN AUSTRALIA, AND CHINA, WHAT ROLE DO YOU THINK THOSE TENSIONS WILL BE PLAYING IN CONVERSATIONS? I THINK THEY WILL DEFINITELY COME UP AND PROBABLY IN PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS FOR SURE BUT WHAT I AM READING FROM WHAT THEY ARE PRIMARIES THEY HAS BEEN SAYING HE REALLY WANTS TO FOCUS ON THE MAIN TRADE ISSUES AND TIPPY TOE ON THE OTHERS — BUT IT HAS COME UP, IT IS THE REALITY WITH COVID-19 AND THE PANDEMIC WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN — IT IS A VERY COMPLEX WORLD OUT THERE AND HE NEEDS TO EXPRESS SOME CONCERNS, I SUPPOSE, ABOUT CHINA BEING IN THE PACIFIC AND THE ACTION IS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD TODAY. WHAT IS A FACT THAT THIS TRIP EVEN GOING AHEAD TELLS US ABOUT HOW CHINA VIEWED NEW ZEALAND AT THE MOMENT? IN MY VIEW, CHINA DOES VALUE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH NEW ZEALAND WE ARE THE FIRST OECD COUNTRY THAT SIGNED AN FTA AGREEMENT WITH CHINA, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT, WE HAVE BEEN AN IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTOR TO STABILITY IN THE REGION AS WELL. THROUGHOUT THE LAST FEW YEARS, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA AND THEIR TRADITIONAL PARTNERS HAS DETERIORATED. HOW HAS NEW ZEALAND NAVIGATED THAT PERIOD? IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO BALANCE OUR TRADITIONAL SECURITY AND TIES WITH OUR FRIENDS AND ALLIES AND ON THE OTHER PART THE FAIRLY HEAVY RELATIONSHIPS WITH REGARD TO TRADE. THAT BALANCING ACT IS INTERESTING. WE HAVE IN FACT NOT SAID THAT WE ARE NOT PART OF THAT GROUP OF FRIENDS AND ALLIES BUT WE HAVE TO REALISE THAT WE — FOR A SMALL STATE, A SMALL COUNTRY LIKE US, THERE IS A ALISON ACT TO A BALANCING ACT TO DO. HAVE THERE BEEN PLACES THAT WE HAVE NOT DONE SO WELL? IT DEPENDS ON PERCEPTION. THE MOST RECENT PERCEPTIONS OF ASIA DONE BY THE ASIA NEW ZEALAND FOUNDATION SHOWS THAT THE GOVERNMENT POSITION REFLECTS THE AMBIVALENCE OF PUBLIC OPINION. 37% OF PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND SAY CHINA IS A THREAT BUT RECOGNISE THAT CHINA IS IMPORTANT ECONOMICALLY BUT ALSO RECOGNISING THAT AUSTRALIA, THE UK, THE US RE: IMPORTANT PARTNERS BECAUSE OF OUR SHARED VALUES AND A HISTORY OF STANDING TOGETHER. IT KIND OF REFLECTS PUBLIC OPINION, I WOULD SAY. LANGUAGE IS IMPORTANT, I WANT TO PLAY YOU A CLIP — JOE BIDEN DESCRIBED JIPING AS A DICTATOR — HERE IS HOW CHRIS HIPKINS RESPONDED. AS EXTENSIVE CONTROL OVER SOCIETY AS A WHOLE. OUR PRIME MINISTER HOPES NOT BE PUT ON THE SPOT, OUR PRIME MINISTER HOPES NOT BE PUT ON THE SPOT, AHEAD OF TODAY'S TRIP TO CHINA WOULD HAVE POISONED THE WELCOME, SO HE'S BEEN VERY DIPLOMATIC. TO THE CHINESE PEOPLE HAVE THE OPTION OF CHANGING GOVERNMENT? NOT IN THE WAY THAT WE DO, THOSE OF US WHO LIVE IN A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY. HERE WE CAN THROW OUT THE RASCALS, BUT THEIR OPTION IS A RADICAL CHANGE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT — PROTEST, REVOLUTION. IT IS MUCH MORE NONCONVENTIONAL POLITICAL PARTICIPATION. THE US GOVERNMENT PRESENTS BIDEN'S FOREIGN POLICY, IS BUILDING A COLLECTION OF DEMOCRACIES, SUCH AS WHEN HE MET WITH INDIA'S SPRAY MINISTER. WHAT YOU THINK OF THAT FRAME? THE FRAMING IS A BIT TRICKY ON THE ASIA-PACIFIC SIDE, BECAUSE IF YOU VIEW THE ASIA-PACIFIC, THERE ARE NOT A LOT OF FULL DEMOCRACIES. SO I WOULD SAY THAT ABBY HAS TO BE A LITTLE BIT OF A SHARED INTEREST, I MEANT BY THAT IS THAT OUR INTERESTS ARE CONVERGING ON THIS REGION, IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA FOR EXAMPLE. IF THAT IS EMPHASISED, THEN YOU BRING IN VIETNAM — OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT FULL DEMOCRACIES AS SUCH. IF YOU ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT JUST CHRISSY AS A VALUE OF TO BE JOINING IN THE CAMP SO FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND THAT AT LEAST TRIES TO TAKE SOME SORT OF MORAL POSITION ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE — HOW DOES IT FIT TO HAVE OUR LARGEST TRADING PARTNER NOT BE A DEMOCRACY? IT IS REALLY TOUGH — FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS SO DEPENDENT ON TRADE WE ARE LOOKING FOR MARKETS EVERYWHERE. WHEN YOU THINK OF WHY WE ARE TIPTOEING ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES IS THAT IF THE WORLD CAN — IF EXAMPLE THE WESTERN EYES, OR THE UNITED STATES CAN OPEN UP A LITTLE BIT WITH REGARDS TO FREE TRADE, MAYBE IT WOULD RELIEVE A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM OUR SIDE. BECAUSE FOR A TRADE DEPENDENT COUNTRY, WE ARE LOOKING FOR MARKET ACCESS FOR OUR SUSTAINABILITY. WE LIVE AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE WORLD AND WE NEED TO BE REACHING OUT AS MUCH AS WE CAN. IF UNITED STATES GOING TO BE PREACHING ABOUT DEMOCRACY, THEN IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO PRIORITISE FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS. YES, WITH THE BIG ECONOMIC HEADWINDS WE ARE ALL FACING TODAY — THE COLD WAR WAS ABOUT COMMUNISM VERSUS ANTICOMMUNISM — AND IF WE LOOK AT THE ANTI-COMMUNIST ALLIANCE DURING THAT TIME, MANY OF THOSE COMMUNIST GOVERNMENTS WERE DICTATORSHIPS AT THAT TIME. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF ATTENTION GIVEN TO CHINA'S ROLE IN THE PACIFIC WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT ON NEW ZEALAND'S RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA IF NEW ZEALAND WAS TO MAKE GREATER INVESTMENTS IN DEFENSIVE ASSETS. IS NOT THE CHINA TO TELL US WHAT TO DO — WE HAVE OUR COMMITMENTS TO OUR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY AND OUR OWN EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE AND OUR OWN RESPONSIBLE IT INTO A PACIFIC ISLAND NEIGHBOURS. MANY OF THEM DO NOT HAVE THEIR OWN NECESSARY RESOURCES TO PROTECT THEIR OWN RESOURCES, SUCH AS FISHING. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO HAVE THESE ASSETS SO WE CAN AT LEAST PATROL AND PROTECT THOSE ECONOMIC SIGNS FROM EXPLOITATION. SO TO BE CLEAR YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE INVESTING IN THINGS LIKE TRYING TO HELP MONITOR OUR EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONES, HOW ABOUT VESSELS THAT CAN FIND MORE MISSILES? FOR ME, THE ISSUE IS TO HAVE AN EFFECTIVE COAST GUARD DEFENCE. I LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERTS WHETHER WE NEED MISSILES FOR THAT, DRYING COULD BE HELPFUL BECAUSE WE DON'T NEED PERSONNEL — AND WE ARE COVERING SUCH A HUGE EEZ — BUT WE NEED AT LEAST SOME NAVAL ASSETS, COAST GUARD TYPE, TO BE ABLE TO PATROL — BECAUSE THE COMPETITION FOR A RESOURCE IS PROBABLY THE ONE REASON WE ARE COUNTRIES GO INTO CONFLICT. THAT IS A VERY INTERESTING POINT. WE WILL FINISH THERE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS — HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER OR FACEBOOK. SHORTLY THE CEO OF NGAI TAHU TELL US HOW THE IWI THINKS BUT NEXT, THE RACE FOR TE TAI HAUAURU. WHAT'LL IT TAKE FOR TE PATI MAORI TO WIN ANOTHER ELECTORATE SEAT? THE MAORI ELECTORATES COULD BE PIVOTAL THIS YEAR'S ELECTION — NOT JUST FOR WHO TAKES GOVERNMENT, BUT FOR THE POWER RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT PARTIES IN OFFICE. ONE OF THE ELECTORATES IN PLAY THIS YEAR IS TE TAI HAUAURU, WHERE TE PATI MAORI AND LABOUR CANDIDATES ARE GOING HEAD-TO-HEAD. AND AS WHENA OWEN REPORTS, A THIRD CANDIDATE IN THE MIX COULD BRING ABOUT AN UNEXPECTED OUTCOME. (REGGAE MUSIC) ANEI TE WAIATA MAI RA I TE ROPU 1814 TA RATA WAIATA 'WHAKAHONOHONO' I RUNGA I AWA FM. (REGGAE MUSIC CONTINUES) WHANGANUI IS JUST ONE URBAN CENTRE IN THE MAORI SEAT OF TE TAI HAUAURU. IT'S A SIZEABLE ELECTORATE, AS ITS 2023 CANDIDATES ATTEST. KAWHIA ALL THE WAY DOWN THROUGH TARANAKI, AS WIDE AS TAUMARUNUI. TIRAU DOWN TO PUTARURU, TOKOROA DOWN TO MANGAKINO. SO YOU'VE GOT PALMERSTON NORTH, YOU'VE GOT WHANGANUI, YOU'VE GOT RUAPEHU, RANGITIKEI. ...TARANAKI, WHANGANUI, MANAWATU, HOROWHENUA, AND PORIRUA. # AWHINATIA MAI RA # KIA TAHURI ATU AI... SORAYA PEKE-MASON IS CONTESTING THE SEAT FOR LABOUR. SO YOU'RE LIVING HERE IN THE RATANA COMMUNITY. YES. YEAH. YES, I'VE BEEN HERE FOR JUST OVER 20 YEARS. (WOMEN KARANGA) AND SHE'S BEEN A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR 8 MONTHS, BROUGHT IN ON THE LABOUR LIST AFTER TREVOR MALLARD RESIGNED. HER BACKGROUND IS IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT, BUT IN 2011, SHE STOOD FOR TE TAI HAUAURU, LOSING TO THE MAORI PARTY'S TARIANA TURIA. MEMBERS UNDER STANDING ORDER 36 1C... RECENTLY, THE CURRENT MP FOR THIS ELECTORATE, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE ADRIAN RURAWHE ANNOUNCED HE'S OFF TO THE LIST, LEAVING THE CANDIDACY OPEN. SORAYA WAS SELECTED. SO IT HELPS THAT ADRIAN RURAWHE, WHO IS CURRENTLY THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR THIS ELECTORATE, IS YOUR COUSIN. YES. YES, IT DOES. ('WHAKAHONOHONO MAI' CONTINUES) (CAR HORN TOOTS) WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES FOR THIS PARTICULAR RACE, TE TAI HAUAURU? WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M RUNNING AGAINST SOME VERY STRONG WAHINE. ONE OF THEM HAPPENS TO BE THE CO-LEADER OF TE PATI MAORI. # WHAKAHONOHONO MAI, # E TE IWI... UP THE COAST IN PATEA, TE PATI MAORI CO-LEADER DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER IS CONTESTING TE TAI HAUAURU FOR A SECOND TIME. IN 2020, SHE CAME IN 1050 VOTES BEHIND LABOUR. I THINK THIS TIME ROUND, IT'S— WE'RE A LOT MORE KNOWN — PEOPLE HAVE SEEN OUR PERFORMANCE IN THE HOUSE, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE EXCITEMENT. SO WHAT'S YOUR POINT OF DIFFERENCE HERE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER CANDIDATES? MM. OH, I THINK OUR POINT OF DIFFERENCE IS THAT I AM THE ONLY CANDIDATE IN AN INDIGENOUS PARTY, IN A TANGATA WHENUA PARTY. WE ARE REALLY PROUD OF OUR POINT OF DIFFERENCE. WE DON'T HAVE SOMEONE ELSE THAT TELLS US THAT WE'RE THE 'VALUE-ADDED', OR, YOU KNOW, HAVE TO JUSTIFY OUR VALUES, OUR TIKANGA. NATIONAL'S CANDIDATE, HARETE HIPANGO, INSISTS HER MAORI VALUES ARE NOT CONSTRAINED BY HER MAINSTREAM PARTY. RECENTLY, SHE CHALLENGED HER COLLEAGUE SIMEON BROWN'S OPPOSITION TO BILINGUAL ROAD SIGNS. I SPOKE UP BECAUSE IT'S TRUE TO WHO I AM, ABOUT TIKA AND PONO, BUT ALSO THE NATIONAL PARTY IS OF THE VIEW THAT THERE IS A PLACE FOR INCLUSION, DIVERSITY. ...E TE MANA WHAKAMA. HARETE, WHO HELD THE GENERAL SEAT OF WHANGANUI FROM 2017 TO 2020, IS KNOWN TO BE PARTICULARLY CONSERVATIVE. THIS STATUE OVER HERE... BUT, SHE POINTS OUT, WALKING THROUGH MOUTOA GARDENS, OR PAKAITORE, SHE'D BE THE ONLY MP IN PARLIAMENT WHO'S BEEN AN INTEGRAL PART OF A 79-DAY OCCUPATION. (PEOPLE SING WAIATA) (SHOUTING) DOWN HERE ON THE GROUND, BUT ALSO REPRESENTING THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE CHARGED AND ARRESTED AND REQUIRED LEGAL REPRESENTATION — AND I WAS IT. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS THAT NATIONAL HAS STOOD A CANDIDATE IN A MAORI SEAT. SO THAT TRANSITION FOR ME, GOING FROM A GENERAL SEAT MP INTO A MAORI SEAT IS A NATURAL, ORGANIC— AND THAT'S THE RIGHT FIT FOR ME, HERE AND NOW, WHERE I AM, BEARING IN MIND THE PEOPLE AND PLACE THAT I COME FROM. MY WHANAUNGA, TARIANA, SHE REMINDS ME, TOO, THAT UNDER NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS, WE HAVE HAD KURA KAUPAPA MAORI, WE HAVE HAD KOHANGA REO, WE HAVE HAD INVESTMENT IN MAORI BROADCASTING, EDUCATION, IMPORTANTLY, MAORI WOMEN'S WELFARE LEAGUE, MAORI WARDENS. COS I DID READ THAT SHE WAS— SHE WAS PROMOTING YOU, OR BACKING YOU, OR ENDORSING YOU. YES, I READ THAT TOO. # E RERE RA E # TAKU POI POROTITI... BACK IN PATEA, AT THE MARAE WHERE THE HIT SONG 'POI E' WAS FILMED, TE PATI MAORI CO-LEADER IS SHOWING US THE WHARENUI. SO THAT'S MY FATHER'S FAMILY. THAT'S MY FATHER'S DAD, HIS MUM, HIS BROTHERS. SEE THAT BLACK AND WHITE THERE — THAT'S NOT DALVANIUS? YEAH, IT IS. YEAH. THAT'S DALVANIUS. THAT'S HIS MUM AND DAD. TE PATI MAORI IS PINNING ITS HOPE ON DEBBIE CLINCHING THIS SEAT, RAWIRI WAITITI TAKING WAIARIKI AGAIN AND TE TAI RAWHITI GOING TO THEIR NEW RECRUIT. HOW'S YOUR THIRD MP GOING? OH, SHE'S GREAT. SHE'S GREAT. I MEAN, NOW RAWIRI AND I CAN ACTUALLY SAY WE'RE CO-LEADERS OF SOMEONE. (LAUGHS) SO... SO— AND SHE'S JUST SUCH A HARD WORKER, HAS JUST GOT A WEALTH OF EXPERIENCE. HER SUPPORT AND KNOWLEDGE OUT IN HER ELECTORATE IS JUST AMAZING. AND IT'S BEEN GREAT. SO YOU'VE GOT HIGH HOPES THAT SHE'S GOING TO TAKE THAT ONE? OH, ABSOLUTELY. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE BEEN REALISTIC ENOUGH TO ACCEPT THAT, FOR THE FIRST TIME, TE PATI MAORI AND MAORI MAY BE CHOOSING THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER. AT THE MOUTH OF THE PATEA RIVER, THE CO-LEADER IS EXPLAINING THAT THIS IS WHERE POLITICS BEGAN FOR HER — SENDING A SEABED MINING COMPANY PACKING. (1814'S 'WHAKAHONOHONO MAI') LOOKING AHEAD, ALL THREE CANDIDATES LIST COMMON ISSUES THEY WANT TO ADDRESS IN THIS ELECTORATE. COST OF LIVING — INFLATION IS A BIG ISSUE FOR US, HEALTH IS ANOTHER VERY BIG ISSUE, HOUSING IS ANOTHER ONE. SO WE'LL BE CRANKING INTO CAMPAIGN SEASON SOON — WHAT'S YOUR GAME PLAN? YEAH, WELL, I CAN'T TELL YOU TOO MUCH BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL BE LISTENING— (CHUCKLES) BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, I'LL BE KNOCKING ON AS MANY DOORS AS I CAN. A LOT OF DRIVING, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A BIG ELECTORATE, OF COURSE. OH, THERE IS. HUGE. WE ARE ACKNOWLEDGING BY BOWING TO THOSE INSIDE. HARETE HIPANGO EXPLAINS THAT THE VERY FIRST POLITICIAN IN THIS SEAT, OR WESTERN MAORI, WAS FROM A CONSERVATIVE PARTY, BUT HOW WILL NATIONAL FARE NOW AGAINST THE HIGH-PROFILE TE PATI MAORI AND LABOUR'S DOMINANCE IN THE SEAT? SO — THAT MAY CHANGE, AND THE TIDES ARE TURNING THE NATIONAL PARTY WAKA IS ON THE WATER in TE TAI HAUAURU, WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE OUR COURSE, AND IT'S FOR THE PEOPLE TO DECIDE. HEI AKUANEI — WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KIA ORA E TE WHANAU. WELCOME BACK. FROM A DEED OF SETTLEMENT WORTH $170 MILLION 25 YEARS AGO, NGAI TAHU HAS GROWN ITS ASSET BASE TO MORE THAN $2 BILLION. THAT FIGURE MAKES IT THE WEALTHIEST IWI OF THOSE THAT HAVE SO FAR SETTLED WITH THE CROWN. BUT WITH SIGNIFICANT TOURISM INVESTMENTS, AND THE WIDESPREAD IMPACT OF COVID-19, IWI LEADERSHIP HAVE FOUND THEMSELVES NAVIGATING A PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANT DISRUPTION. I SAT DOWN IN OTAUTAHI WITH THE CEO OF TE RUNANGA O NGAI TAHU, ARIHIA BENNETT. THE WHOLE CONCEPT AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF TE RUNANGA O NGAI TAHU GREW UP FROM THE SETTLEMENT. SO IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US, FIRST OF ALL, TO ACKNOWLEDGE ACTUALLY HOW WE GOT HERE. AND WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE... THE MANY GENERATIONS BEFORE, WHO, THROUGH THEIR HARD WORK, TOOK THE CLAIM TO THE CROWN AND THAT EVENTUATED IN A DEED OF SETTLEMENT; ALSO THE TE RUNANGA O NGAI TAHU ACT — IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO KNOW WHERE WE'VE COME FROM. SO, AS WE MOVE ON THROUGH — WE'RE NEARLY AT 25 YEARS SINCE SETTLEMENT, AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL OF CONTINUOUSLY IS THAT WE ARE REFLECTING WHAT OUR TUPUNA, OUR GENERATIONS BEFORE US, PUT IN PLACE IN ORDER TO ARTICULATE A BETTER LIFE FOR OUR WHANAU GOING FORWARD. SO WE HAVE THIS WHAKATAUKI, 'MO TATOU, A, MO KA URI A MURI AKI NEI' — WHICH IS ABOUT US AND OUR CHILDREN AFTER US, AND THE BALANCING-OUT OF ANYTHING THAT WE DO IN COMMERCIAL WHETHER WE ARE WORKING IN OUR WELL-BEING SECTOR, OUR EDUCATION SECTOR, HOUSING, ET CETERA — ALL MUST WORK TOWARDS THE WELL-BEING, THE ONGOING DEVELOPMENT OF OUR GENERATIONS AFTER US. IN OTHER WORDS, WE'RE JUST SEAT-WARMERS AT THE MOMENT. AND THE ABILITY FOR US TO WORK TOGETHER — IN TERMS OF COMMERCIAL ACQUISITIONS, COMMERCIAL INVESTMENTS MUST ALSO LOOK TO THE FRAMEWORK THAT TE RUNANGA SETS FOR US AROUND MAKING SURE THAT ANYTHING WE ARE INVOLVED IN ENABLES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR OUR WHANAU, OUR HAPU, OUR PAPATIPU RUNANGA TO ALSO BE INVOLVED IN THAT. SO IT'S SORT OF NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. MM. AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT WE ARE... WE'RE AN IWI AND A WHANAU BUSINESS, AND, YOU KNOW, IF THINGS GET OUT OF SYNCH OR OUT OF KILTER, WE GET OUR EARS PULLED AND QUICKLY BROUGHT BACK INTO PERSPECTIVE. BUT THAT HAPPENS LESS— LESS SO AS WE HAVE REALLY CLEAR FRAMEWORKS TO GUIDE US GOING FORWARD. IT'S PRETTY REMARKABLE TO CONSIDER NGAI TAHU'S PROGRESS OVER THE LAST 25 OR 30 YEARS. SO THE DEED OF SETTLEMENT WAS SIGNED, THE IWI RECEIVED $170 MILLION AND IN THE DECADE SINCE, THAT'S BEEN GROWN TO $1.9 BILLION. WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE TOP LESSONS, THE KEYS TO THAT SUCCESS? I THINK, YOU KNOW, TO GIVE GREAT DUE AND RESPECT TO THE DESIGNERS AND THE ARCHITECTS OF ESTABLISHING THIS FOUNDATION. ALTHOUGH WE ARE STEEPED IN OUR TRADITIONS AND WHERE WE'VE COME FROM, WE'RE ALSO QUITE INNOVATIVE. MM. AND YOU WILL SEE THAT FROM SOME OF THE MANY DEVELOPMENTS WE'VE UNDERTAKEN IN TERMS OF THE WIDE PORTFOLIO, DIVERSIFIED PORTFOLIO THAT WE DO HAVE, THAT WE ARE NOT AFRAID TO ACTUALLY STRETCH BEYOND THOSE BOUNDS TO... TO TEST OUT, TO INNOVATE, TO IMPLEMENT, AND ACTUALLY TO MAKE SURE OUR OWN PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED IN THOSE OPPORTUNITIES. CAN YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF AN INNOVATIVE KIND OF INVESTMENT THAT NGAI TAHU'S PURSUED? THIS WEEK DOWN IN SOUTHLAND, WE ARE SUPPORTING OUR PAPATIPU RUNANGA, WHO ARE SO INVESTED IN GREEN ENERGY. AND THE PAPATIPU RUNANGA ARE LOOKING AT WHAT ARE THE OPPORTUNITIES OF NEW GREEN ENERGY IDEAS COMING FORWARD WHETHER THAT'S ONSHORE, OFFSHORE, WIND, SOLAR, BUT ALSO LOOKING AT HYDROGEN. AND SO THE PAPATIPU RUNANGA ARE COMING TOGETHER AND THEY ARE LOOKING AT HOW THEY CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A ROLE IN THE PLACE, IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN REGION, HARNESS THE ENVIRONMENT, ALSO WORK WITH BIG INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS ON WHETHER WE CAN HAVE A FOOTPRINT IN THE GREEN HYDROGEN SPACE. AND I THINK THAT IS A FANTASTIC INNOVATION THAT WE ARE SEEING — NOT ONLY FROM THE BUSINESS SIDE, THE CLIMATE CHANGE SIDE, BUT ALSO FROM A TEACHING METHODOLOGY POINT OF VIEW WHERE WE'VE GOT RESEARCHERS, SCIENTISTS ALSO GETTING ALONGSIDE SCHOOLS TO ACTUALLY BUILD AND EDUCATE YOUNG PEOPLE BEING INVOLVED. SO THAT'S AT THAT END. AND IF I THINK ABOUT IT AT ANOTHER END, I THINK ABOUT OUR WHAI RAWA INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY, WHERE, BACK IN THE EARLY 2000s, PRE-KIWISAVER, 2006, WE WORKED ALONGSIDE DAVID CAYGILL AND DR MICHAEL CULLEN ON DEVELOPING OUR WHAI RAWA LONG-TERM SAVINGS RETIREMENT FUND. AND TODAY WE HAVE ABOUT 33,000 OF OUR NGAI TAHU MEMBERS WHO PARTICIPATE IN THE WHAI RAWA FUND. WE'VE GOT ABOUT $122 MILLION THAT'S IN MANAGED FUNDS. AND WHAT THIS IS ALSO DOING IS NOT ONLY CREATING THAT SAVINGS INCENTIVE, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT FINANCIAL LITERACY. IT'S ALSO WHERE MOKOPUNA CAN ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM THEIR KAUMATUA IN TERMS OF FUNDING THAT THEY WANT TO SEE FOR THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR GREAT— THEIR GRANDCHILDREN GOING FORWARD. HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY WE DEFINE 'COMMERCIAL SUCCESS'? LOOK, IT'S BEEN A REALLY— THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING QUESTION, AND I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT A LOT. I'VE BEEN IN THIS ROLE HERE NOW FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS, AND WHEN I ARRIVED, IT WAS POST-EARTHQUAKE. AND I CAN REMEMBER GOING OUT WITH SOME OF OUR LEADERS HERE IN THE COMMERCIAL SECTOR AND WHEN WE WERE TENDERING FOR INFRASTRUCTURE-TYPE PROJECTS, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DREW MY ATTENTION VERY QUICKLY WAS WHEN WE WERE TENDERING, THERE WAS ACTUALLY NO INTEREST IN THE COMMUNITY WELL-BEING OR THE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT SIDE. THERE WAS MORE OF AN INTEREST IN THE COMMERCIAL ACQUISITION OR THE COMMERCIAL OPPORTUNITIES, WHICH OF COURSE DO BRING ECONOMY — THEY BRING A WHANAU ECONOMY — BUT THERE WAS NO ADDRESS GIVEN TO THE WELL-BEING OF A COMMUNITY, THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE COMMUNITY, FAMILIES, THE CHANGES THAT THEY HAVE TO MAKE. AND IT REALLY— THAT PART REALLY HAS STUCK WITH ME THROUGHOUT THIS WHOLE JOURNEY IN TERMS OF... THE WAY WE ARE MEASURED IN SOCIETY IS ALWAYS ABOUT YOUR ECONOMIC WEALTH. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR— YOUR HEALTH IS ACTUALLY YOUR WEALTH. IF I DON'T HAVE HEALTH, IF I DON'T— IF MY FAMILY DON'T HAVE GOOD HEALTH, IF THEY DON'T HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE GOOD FOOD, A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS, GOOD EDUCATION AND HEALTH, THEN I'M NOT WEALTHY AT ALL. AND SO I ALWAYS FIND THIS REALLY INTERESTING THAT THERE'S AN EASY MEASURE AROUND, 'OH, YOU'RE SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE YOU'RE THIS TYPE OF WORTH.' CERTAINLY, THAT'S ONE ASPECT AND IT HAS TO FIT WITHIN OUR FRAMEWORK OF OUR VALUES. BUT THE MOST CRITICAL PART TO BEING WEALTHY IS YOUR HEALTH, AND IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT THAT AND YOU HAVE— YOUR FAMILY DON'T HAVE IT AND YOUR HAPU DOESN'T HAVE IT, THEN YOU'VE GOT PROBLEMS GOING FORWARD. WHAT'S YOUR READ ON THE ECONOMY AT THE MOMENT? THE... YOU KNOW, WE'RE MOVING INTO QUITE A TIGHT SITUATION. WE ALSO KNOW THAT OUR WHANAU ARE SAYING TO US THAT THINGS ARE TIGHT FOR THEM. THE COST OF LIVING — WE KNOW IN OUR OWN HOMES IN RELATION TO MORTGAGES, THERE IS A WORRY ABOUT WHERE THAT HEADS TO NEXT. CERTAINLY THERE IS SOME— A LITTLE BIT OF RELIEF IN SOME OF THE RECENT ANNOUNCEMENTS AROUND EDUCATION, HEALTH, EVEN WHANAU ORA, ET CETERA. BUT GOING FORWARD, THE ECONOMY DOES LOOK TO BE QUITE TIGHT AND WE MUST STAY AHEAD OF THAT. THIS IS SUCH A PERIOD OF CHANGE. HOW CAN AN ORGANISATION LIKE NGAI TAHU WORK OUT HOW BEST TO POSITION ITSELF? I THINK THAT THE FIRST THING IS NOT TO WORK IN ISOLATION — THAT WE HAVE TO, AS I SAID EARLIER, KEEP OUR EAR TO THE GROUND. WE HAVE TO BE ENGAGED AND WE HAVE TO BE INVOLVED NOT ONLY LOCALLY, REGIONALLY, NATIONALLY, BUT ACTUALLY WORLDWIDE. NGAI TAHU SPENDS A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT RESEARCH OFFSHORE. WE ARE INVESTED IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH A LOT OF THE LEARNING INSTITUTIONS IN... IN AMERICA — STANFORD, FIRST NATIONS AND OTHER PLACES WHERE WE'RE ACTUALLY DEVELOPING OUR OWN PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE INTERNATIONALLY. STAY WITH US — Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY SEAN LYDIARD AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023