- Kua ara mai te ara o Puanga. Ko nga tapuwae o Rehua, kei te uru pae. Ko te paki o Autahi ara. Ko te tau hou Maori kua tau, kau tau, tenei ka tau. Hara mai te toki, haumi e, hui e, taiki e! This week on The Hui. Maori Party leaders Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa-Packer are live to talk policies, deals and bottom lines. Plus, we catch up with the man behind Maori Football Aotearoa as he helps his teams prepare for their tour to Australia. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 Te hunga kua takahi atu ra i te ara namunamu ki taiao, haere mai, haere. Tatou kei te ao turoa, tihewa mauriora, and welcome back to the Hui. They could hold the balance of power after this year's election. Now, it will be a tight affair, and particularly so, perhaps, in the Maori seats. So what are the political fortunes of the Maori Party, and how can they increase those fortunes for this year's election? Joining me now are the co-leaders of the Maori Party. Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, live in studio. E nga kaiarataki a Te Pati Maori, tena korua. - BOTH: Kia ora. - Lots to talk about, so let's get into it. Policies and the party. Perhaps if I can start— and I don't know if you saw the interview yesterday with Heather, with Heather Te Au-Skipworth. Why is Heather Te Au-Skipworth not a candidate for the Maori Party in this year's election? - I think the first part of it is because Ikaroa-Rawhiti now has Meka, which Heather and the whanau were part of discussing and— and also endorsing. I think also, you know, we have to respect our individual needs and the needs of our whanau in this kaupapa. Developing and growing a movement like we have is really hard, and so we respect Heather's decision, and we respect her whanau's decision, and tautoko what it is that they need to do right by them. And I think, you know, that's all part and parcel of what it is; to grow movement is to also make sure we look after our whanau first and foremost. - She appeared mamae on the day the announcement was made. She still appears mamae. What do you make of that? I mean, do you get mamae when you see her like that? - Oh, kei te aroha atu ki te tuahine a Heather i tenei wa. Ina e mamae. Kei te aroha atu ki a ia me tona whanau hoki, cos we know this doesn't just affect the individuals. It affects whanau as well. - So how did that happen, I guess is what I'm trying to get to. Why? - Well, we've had to go through a process with her and her whanau. in terms of the transition with Meka bringing the Ikaroa-Rawhiti seat over to the Maori movement, and bringing them at home. And so we tried to do that respectfully and as carefully as possible. And look, at the end of the day, Heather has made a decision with her whanau, and we respect that. Unfortunately, in this particular job, you've got Te Pati Maori The Te Pati part is the political part of it. That has to do with candidacies, Maori roll, general roll, polls, lists, all of those types of things happen in that space. But then you've got the Maori aspect of it, right? And the Maori aspect of it is that the mahi we do out there in our communities— I respect Heather and the mahi that she does in her community. It's a bit like Buttabean, was also the same. So he decided with his whanau that the party part of it, the political part of it, the timing wasn't right. And so he's decided to continue in the Maori part of it on the ground, with his communities, doing the awesome mahi work that he does there. I think Heather also, there's a focus on the IronMaori space that she wants to put more effort into, and we respect that. - We want to talk about the other electorates and the races there as well, but just to close this point off, it appears that— I mean, she said that if parties come to talk to her and her whanau, I think, in Pakipaki is what she mentioned, that those conversations could be held, which to me, the interpretation that I got was that somewhere, a ball was dropped. Do you accept that... balls were dropped where there should have been conversations with her so that she was still a candidate for the Maori Party in this election? - I think the reality is that we have to leave that korero with Heather. What Heather feels and what is her whanau feel is theirs to talk to. It's not ours to explain. I think really the korero is their pain in growing this movement. Every time my papa rings me about things we've gotten wrong and how I try to please him as a whanau and this one as a whanau, and that one as a whanau, absolutely, there's pain. Absolutely, there's emotions. And you know, we wouldn't be Maori if we didn't say that. Heather said, you know, we're complex, but at the end of the day, we are whanau, and at different parts of my journey coming from Aotea waka, there have been massive pain to get to our destination, cos our destination is tino rangatiratanga, and there's no doubt that we all agree on that. - Do you think you're going to win all seven electorates and if so, how? - On a good day, we win all seven seats. On a bad day, we will take three to four seats. That's my prediction. I'm not Te Kooti, but that's my prediction. And so we're going to work hard for the seven seats. If there's a turn on which we saw— which we've seen before, Te Pati Maori will take all seven seats. On a bad day, we will take three or four seats. - Who is your Hauraki-Waikato candidate? Because names have been mentioned — two from the one whanau. From the Maipi whanau. - (LAUGHS) - Oh! Well, we can't announce that yet, because then we'd be giving away what— - But we do have an announcement. - It's coming up this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, it's this week. It's Monday. - (BOTH LAUGH) - A week is a long time in politics. So unfortunately we have to allow the electorate the respect to be able to do that. - Do you absolutely think you can win an electorate like Hauraki-Waikato against a formidable, and as we know, very strong Maori MP in Nanaia Mahuta? - We absolutely think that we can win all seven seats. And again, you know, I think we were asked in 2020, 'do we absolutely think that Te Pati Maori can come back? 'Do we absolutely think the movement can grow?' Absolutely. And we must because we can see the significance of us having to hold a government to account and having to push back at the racism and the discrimination and all the things that are going to stop our natural thrivance as a people. - Let's talk about the racism and discrimination. Rawiri, you made some comments about gangs — 'Keep my iwi out of your mouth.' Why did you say something like that? Because political leaders are expected to come in on all manner of issues. How acceptable can it be for a political leader to not talk about something like what happened in Opotiki? - Well, it's unacceptable that in the Maori seats, you have an opinion when you don't actually go and show up face to face. We have huge expectation by our people in the Maori seats to face up kanohi-ki-te-kanohi. We're different to the Pakeha seats. They can helicopter somebody in who doesn't even live in the electorate, but because they're colour-blind, if it's a strong National seat or a strong Labour seat, they'll get in regardless of who they are, regardless of their kanohi kitea. In the Maori seats, you turn up. Did any of those leaders turn up to Opotiki? No. When was the last time they turned up to Opotiki? Never. - Are gangs a national issue? - This was specific to Opotiki. My specific korero to them was 'Keep my iwi out of your mouth. 'Get to Opotiki, go and talk to the community.' Because the people I've spoken to in the community, including the mayor, iwi leadership, the health organisations, plus those people I have known most of my life or all of my life. I've played rugby against them. I went to school with many of them. Opotiki is my town. And I'm also a member of the iwi Ngai Tama, Ngati Rua, Ngati Ira and so my thing is, turn— Whakatohea. - Whakatohea. - I have a right to protect Whakatohea here. And if you've got something to say about Te Whakatohea, show up and face them face to face. - Debbie, you mentioned racism and discrimination. You know, people might say— might level that accusation against political leaders when they start talking about inequities in health and the way in which the health system is trying to address those inequities, particularly with decisions that have been made lately in that space. Are you saying that political leaders — the likes of which make those comments, and let's name them, you know, leader of the ACT party — are they racist? - I think what they're doing is they are using the social theory of moral panic to create racism. We've always talked about those that are emboldening racism - and just bear with me for a moment — because their natural default setting is that we are— we don't deserve inequities, that inequity is the space that we want to land at. Actually for Te Pati Maori, we don't want to land at inequities. We want to land past that point when equities isn't what we're continuously fighting for, and we're fighting for the destination — te tino rangatiratanga. We're getting stuck in this middle game where we all know that the system's failed. Academics, scientists, global leaders have all acknowledged the issues. But what we have, of course, is the typical mechanism where people will sit there and I guess demonise a group of us, whether it be gangs, whether it be those of us who are unwell, dying seven years early. That's what we are dealing with. And it's actually really lazy politicking, really poor. - So is the vituperation, is the political football nature of Maori in election years in these issues a racist act? And if so, by connection to that, are people like — and let me call it out — is Christopher Luxon a racist? - Christopher Luxon is definitely utilising anti-Maori rhetoric to be able to gain points with his voters. - So yes or no, is he racist? - Yes. - Is David Seymour the same? - David Seymour is using the same social theory to form moral panic, utilising the same tool of racism, and racists have to use those tools because they can't rely on, you know, intelligent, pro-Maori tangata whenua rights. What they do is using their might over right, to create disharmony and division in Aotearoa, and it's really, really poor. The sad part about it is we're spending so much time deflecting that when we could be spending more time on decent policies and investment to be able to address it and get past the argument of inequities. That isn't our end point. - Yes or no — is the prime minister therefore racist, given what he was talking about? - I think the Prime Minister should have been better advised on how to use the kai a te rangatira, how to use his mouth in a situation that we had in Whakatohea. And I totally tautoko what Rawhiri called on because as leaders, we have our spheres of influence to use our kai, our mouths, decently or not. And I think he was poorly advised in that situation. - We've got a lot more to talk about. I want to get into policy and particularly your main message to Maori voters in this year's election. We've got a lot more to talk about, as I say. With us are the co-leaders of Te Pati Maori. Stay with us. We'll have more after the break. Where are you off to? To get the flu jab. You coming? No. I won't get the flu. Touch wood. Kia ora! You here for the flu jab? Yeah. VOICEOVER: Don't leave it to chance. Get the flu jab today. Kua auraki mai ra koutou ki ta tatou hui. He hui korero he hui wananga me Te Pati Maori. Joining me, as I said earlier, are the co-leaders of the Maori Party, Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. Rawiri, what is the key message? You said you want the seven seats, and you think you can get them. What is the key message to Maori voters for this year's election from Te Pati Maori? - First of all, enrol. Second of all, make sure you're on the Maori roll. Why is because that's the only way we're going to get a greater Maori voice in Parliament, and those Maori seats are actually dedicated to the liberated Maori voice, and depending on who your party is. And so, Te Pati Maori is that liberated Maori voice. We're saying enrol, make sure you're enrolled, and make sure all your mokopuna enrol— where's the camera that's on— make sure all your mokopuna are enrolled. (LAUGHTER) Make sure that you get to those polls on Polling Day, and make sure that we're voting strategically to ensure that we get a stronger, liberated Maori voice in Parliament. - Let's say you get the seven seats — and maybe a couple of others on the list, depending on how the party vote goes. That happens, and you're in a very strong position to have a conversation with— and let's be straight up here — Chris Hipkins says he's open to a conversation, that there are some shared views with Te Pati Maori. We know National's not that open to it, and we assume that David Seymour feels the same way, but say Chris Hipkins has to make the call. What are the first three things you'd talk about with him that you want? - I think the first thing is what we want to do is see the pain ease on our whanau that have been suffering from poverty. And we've given some solutions for that that would— things like GST off food. That would be things like making sure we address capital gains tax, making sure we address— You know, we would have had a couple of hundred million— billion, sorry, in— trillions, sorry— - Billion. - A couple of hundred billion — Debbie, get it right — in the economy had we had that capital gains tax since 2017, We've got 60,000 of our whanau that are homeless. We've got 100,000 empty homes. Ghost homes tax. So, there's some things that we think we could immediately do that would immediately bring more kai on the table, more food into our whanau. And so those are some of the things. And I think what we really want to put out there is that we're not envious of those who are rich. What we are opposed to is the system that has been rewarding the wealthy, the 2% who hold the 50% of the wealth in Aotearoa. So there are some commonality with a lot of the discussion about taxes, but the difference for us is that we also want to make sure that that is zoning back in to easing the pain of our whanau who aren't suffering just a cost of living crisis; they've been suffering all the complexities of poor living in poverty for a very long time. - So do you have some support for the Green Party policy on tax — for example, tax cuts for those under 25K — provided that it leads to something like GST off fruit and veg? - I think ours is a lot more targeted, and we've got policy to obviously announce as we're heading into the campaign period. So I don't want to give away too much, but ours is very specific. It's very targeted. - You can do it on my show. (LAUGHS) - GST off food is something that we've identified — immediately, we're able to ease the whanau pain. Being able to address homelessness, being able to— with again, taxes. That is reshuffling. So we stop looking after the rich in Aotearoa and start looking after tangata whenua whose displacement has actually— and misery— has created the wealth in Aotearoa. So we want to see it flipped up. And I think that's probably the point of difference for us, is that we have a very tangata whenua focus on where the balance needs to be re-sorted. - Rawiri, how do you do that when you know Labour has already ruled out — certainly under the previous prime minister — capital gains tax, and there seems to be no appetite — excuse the pun — for GST off fruit and veg, because the argument is you've got to make this affordable, so how do you do that in that conversation, should it happen after the election? - Yeah, well, it's quite easy when you're actually not having those conversations right now. But come October 14, we will be having those conversations, and those will be the conversations. They're hard conversations that they'll have to have amongst themselves, because those are some really, really strong lines for us in terms of heading into any coalition, regardless of who it is. The other thing is is that we have a mana motuhake policy. That is absolute priority for us, is constitutional transformation to bring rebalance of power and decision-making at a political level. So we've got the bread and butter issues that Debbie talked about that can make a difference right now. Taking GST off kai right now would make a huge difference for our whanau putting bread and butter on their tables. But the transformation, the constitutional transformational stuff allows us to participate in the power and the resourcing of our people in this particular space in the rebalance. - So given your own personal experience, for example, we've done a bit on bariatric surgery and why it costs so much, and people going overseas and using KiwiSaver to be able to do that. Is that something that you want to tie in to a health policy, particularly given Te Aka Whai Ora is only a year old? - Regardless of what the interventions are, our people should have access to all of it. And unfortunately— I'll give you an example. My mother and I, she has to go on to the public waiting list. Because I've got insurance, I go into the private. And so why can't we all have that? And so we released a policy, one of our— in our health, our hauora policy, around a whanau health card. That's already something we know that's something we will be pushing when we go into coalition — that the money follows the whanau. It doesn't follow the system that continues to feast on the dysfunction it's created. Actually, the whanau are able to go shopping for the best quality care that they deserve. - The mana motuhake policy, Debbie, I think a really important one, particularly when we're talking about inequities, right, and trying to address those not just for Maori. The long term adage has always been what's good for Maori is good for all. And I guess you have a bit of a responsibility as a political leader to help build the empathy from non-Maori to see the benefits for all of Aotearoa in this. How do you do that, given the isolation of the argument to just issues of race? - See, I would push back on that whole belief that we have to bring tangata Tiriti with us, cos actually they're already with us, and some of our biggest fighters and champions representing change for tangata whenua are tangata Tiriti. We've seen that in the polls, our tangata Tiriti support. And I think what we have is, yup, a loud minority who are really fearful of change. I get that. But actually the majority of those in Aotearoa really recognise that we're all focused on making sure our future generations are thriving. So I don't know that we've experienced it as hard as possibly what the House represents or, you know, polarised politicians. We've actually seen an absolute— and I'm really heartened by it, this real positive reaction of wanting to work together towards this Aotearoa hou, from just as many tangata Tiriti, tangata Moana, as tangata whenua. So I actually would put to us that the time's right. We're seeing the excitement. We're feeling it on the ground, the tautoko that is coming across to us, and I think it's a really positive time. Despite all the politicking that's going on, we are in a nation that recognises the need for change. We have 46,000 new voters now. We have 75% of our population's under 40. We are experiencing change. It's just hurting some who have not known any other way. - I think this is going to be the first of many conversations we have with you both as we build up to the election, and feel free to announce any policies you want. - (LAUGHS) We'll ring you. - You can do it now. - (LAUGHS) - Thank you both very much. I know we're going to talk again, but all the very best as we build up to the election. Looking forward to further conversations. - Nga mihi nui. - Kia kaha ra i roto i nga mahi. - Kia ora. - Ka pai. - The Maori Party co-leaders. Te Pati Maori. Ko a kaiarataki takirua o Te Pati Maori. He ra korua Rawiri Waititi, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. After the break — he whana poikiri Maori te mahi. Football, whanau, and whakangahau. Maori football to the fore. E matakitaki ana koutou i ta tatou hui, rarau mai ra. It's called the beautiful game, but for a long time it hasn't been our game. But Maori Football Aotearoa is on a mission to transform the world's most popular sport by bringing more Maori and Maori teams to the football world, and the International Indigenous Football tournament in Australia later this week is a big step and a major shift for Maori football. Mea nei te purongo a John Boynton. - Some days Phil Parker finds it tough keeping up with the younger generation. - If you run past me, I'll want to trip you over, eh? - Phil runs Maori Football Aotearoa where he develops Maori footballers. - These kids can play good soccer, eh. There's a lot of talent out there. There's heaps of potential, massive amounts of potential. - He first started the organisation in 2008. Yeah, cos you've gotta glam up a little bit. My whole journey really with Maori football actually was out of frustration, to be honest — frustration that I was seeing all the other codes in Aotearoa having Maori teams. - Ko te Po nui. Ko te Po rua! - Phil looked to teams like the Maori All Blacks for inspiration. - I was worried that there wasn't gonna be an opportunity for Maori to actually come together in football and celebrate being Maori in a game that's not traditionally representative of Maori. It all started off as a desire to see a team. - Since its inception, Maori Football's nurtured hundreds of players. - So we've got six teams under 16, under 18, and seniors. Football is actually very popular, especially in the younger ages cos it's less combative than rugby and league. So it's a fantastic breeding ground, especially for Maori. - But it's not just about football. Players come together to embrace their Maori whakapapa and culture. - It's as important as putting them into a game, putting them on to a field, because if we get the off-the-field stuff right with our taha Maori, if we get that right, it's transformational. - Turuki, turuki! - Paneke, paneke! - They start to believe in themselves that, 'I am different, I am special. And I do have something that possibly not too many other people 'in this world actually have because I have Maori whakapapa.' - These girls, and how about that? - Two players have been in this environment are New Zealand Football Ferns Paige Satchel and Grace Jale. - Grace Jale really summed it up beautifully. She said, 'When you come to the Maoris, it's just different. I can't explain it.' - Grace Jale, and the speed gets her through. - Paige is out of Rotorua, out of a little small club in Ngongotaha. I remember coaching Paige when she was, like, 11. Like, 11 or 12. Incredible potential. (UPBEAT MUSIC) - Phil says it's vital to provide these pathways for Maori footballers. - Players particularly like Paige that have come from small towns prove that you can get out of anywhere. - And next month a new pathway will open up when Aotearoa Maori Football plays its first international tour in Australia. - We've had a few campaigns, but all of our campaigns have been on our own whenua. So we're actually going outside of our comfort zone with this. - The Senior Men's and Women's teams will square off in a three-test series against the Australian Indigenous National Football Sides. Rhys Ruka played in the first Indigenous series in Aotearoa in 2018. - It's fierce, and it's very physical and fast for the first half an hour especially. Yeah, so it's very competitive, but as soon as the whistle is done, we're all brothers and we all, you know, get along after the match. - This time around, Rhys will be coaching alongside Phil's daughter, Taelor Parker. - What I'm looking forward to the most is creating a relationship with other indigenous nations and being a part of that history. Everyone has obviously two things in common. You all love the game of football, and you're all Maori. - Kirsty Gage will be playing in her first international series. - Both squads, the men and women, have all just worked really hard to get here and I think we're just all going to put our best foot forward. This tour has been a massive undertaking for Phil and his team, with players having to fundraise for the tour. - We're a volunteer organisation and quite a small, tight-knit little group. We're not a million-dollar organisation, when you put it that way. If we had a million dollars in the bank, we could generate more. - The next challenge Phil is looking to take head on is bringing together more indigenous football teams from around the world. - Cos ultimately they wanna play. They wanna get together and do the same thing, show sovereignty, exercise their indigeneity, celebrate themselves. - We've got the Women's World Cup coming here next month. Could you see an Indigenous World Cup one day? - Why not? 17 years ago, we didn't even have a Maori football team. - But in the meantime, Maori Football Aotearoa is fully focused on their upcoming tour to Australia. - I'm very proud that we get to do it together. We have a very mixed age in this team, so it's good that we've got some of the older ones to awhi the younger ones into this process. - You're going there to win? - Part of me, yes, wants to win because I'm competitive as well. It's more about the representation. Did we represent ourselves well? Did we hold ourselves with dignity? Did we represent our whanau, iwi, hapu with pride? - Kia kaha ki nga kaupapa o poitarawhiti Maori. The first of the three-test series kicks off this Saturday on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland and wraps on July 7 on the Gold Coast. Now here's a look at what's coming up next week on The Hui. - Our gaming and tech industry is taking off, tipped to be a billion-dollar business by 2026. (DRAMATIC MUSIC) - It's a boom time for Maori developers. - I think now is the best time to start telling our stories on the digital platform. - But with Maori making up fewer than 5% of the tech workforce, the push is on to encourage rangatahi to go from a console to a career. - I don't think any of us ever thought that we would be able to do this as a job, no. - It needs to happen for our whanau, or else we're going to be left behind. - Unlocking the obstacles for Maori to get in the game. - Use it. Make money. make businesses. Get a piece of it. - This is a new space for us to go and thrive in. (DRAMATIC MUSIC BUILDS) Kia ahatia, kua ataara nga korero a ta tatou hui iaianei. You'll find our stories on our Facebook, Twitter and YouTube platforms, or indeed at newshub.co.nz. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023