TENA TATOU KATOA, I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU — WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. IN JULY LAST YEAR, A SHELL-SHOCKED JAMES SHAW WAS EJECTED AS GREEN CO-LEADER AT HIS OWN PARTY CONFERENCE. COULD IT HAPPEN AGAIN? HE JOINS US ONE WEEK OUT FROM THIS YEAR'S CONFERENCE. WHY IS OUR GOVERNMENT SUDDENLY PUTTING $9m INTO A 'FOREIGN INTERFERENCE WORK PROGRAMME'? OUR POLITICAL PANEL ON THE SLOWLY-UNFOLDING OFFICE DRAMA SURROUNDING MINISTER KIRI ALLAN. AND CAN NEW ZEALAND CONTINUE TO PRODUCE ENOUGH FOOD? FORWARD-THINKING KIWIS ARE GROWING THEIR OWN AND STOCKPILING THE EXCESS. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY — IT'S BEEN A STRANGELY TUMULTUOUS YEAR FOR THE GREEN PARTY. ITS INTERNAL POLITICS BURSTING OUT INTO THE OPEN WHEN THE MEMBERSHIP OUSTED CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW. HE WAS REINSTATED UNOPPOSED, BUT SINCE THEN, IT'S ALSO LOST MP ELIZABETH KEREKERE IN A MESSY BREAKUP. IT'S UNUSUAL FOR THE PARTY AND LEFT US WONDERING WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON. SO TO DISCUSS ALL, JAMES SHAW IS HERE FOR OUR ELECTION YEAR INTERVIEW. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. THIS TIME AS WE SAID, A YEAR AGO, YOU WERE OUSTED. YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT, BUT YOU ARE ABOUT TO GET VOTED OUT OF THE CO-LEADERSHIP. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? IT OBVIOUSLY WASN'T A CAREER HIGHLIGHT. IT ALSO WASN'T THE MOST CHALLENGING MOMENT OF EVER HAD IN MY POLITICAL CAREER, AND I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT I'M GOOD IN A CRISIS, SO ULTIMATELY, I HAD TO REFLECT ON WHAT THE LESSONS WERE THAT I NEEDED TO LEARN THERE. AND I NEEDED TO TALK TO THE MEMBERS. AND HERE I AM. IT LOOKED BRUISING BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING YOUR BEST IN A HIGH PROFILE, PRESSURISED AND PUBLIC JOB AND THEN YOU ARE AMBUSHED BY YOUR OWN PARTY AND UNDERMINED IN THIS PUBLIC WAY. DID YOU THINK IT WAS HARD TO KEEP GOING? NO. WELL, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO GO— I HAD TO GO BACK TO WHAT I WAS COMMITTED TO. AND THE REASON I AM IN POLITICS IS BECAUSE WE ARE FACING A MULTITUDE OF CRISES, PARTICULARLY AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE, BIODIVERSITY AND INEQUALITY. THOSE ARE THINGS THAT I'M COMMITTED TO MAKING A DIFFERENCE ON. THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN THIS JOB IS VERY TOUGH AND MOMENTS WHICH YOU FEEL ARE FAIR OR UNFAIR, LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORT YOU NEED. YOU HAVE TO STAND THAT COMMITMENT AND ULTIMATELY, THE CHOICE THAT I MADE AT THAT MOMENT WAS WHAT I COMMITTED TO? AND I'M COMMITTED TO MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN THOSE AREAS, AND THEREFORE KEEP GOING. WHAT I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY THAT HAPPENED. I THINK THERE WAS A PORTION— IT IS A MINORITY, BUT THERE WAS A PORTION OF OUR MEMBERSHIP THAT WERE UNHAPPY WITH MY PERFORMANCE, AND DIDN'T FEEL THAT I WAS LIVING UP TO THE COMMITMENTS THAT THEY FELT THAT I OUGHT TO BE TAKING. IN WHAT WAY? YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK THEM, AND MOST OF THEM WERE IN ANONYMOUS VOTE, SO IT'S HARD TO DISCERN. WHEN I TRAVELLED AROUND THE COUNTRY, IT WAS A REAL PRIVILEGE AND A TREAT TO RECONNECT WITH PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN MORE OF THE REMOTE BRANCHES, WHICH EVEN IN THE BEST OF TIMES, ARE HARD TO GET TO. AND KIND OF HEARING FROM THEM ABOUT THE SENSE OF URGENCY WITH WHICH THEY WANT THE GOVERNMENT AND THE GREENS IN GOVERNMENT TO BE FOCUSING ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND SO ON. I WANT TO ASK YOU, WAS ELIZABETH KEREKERE BEHIND THAT ATTACK? NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I'VE HEARD, IS THAT SHE WAS PART OF THE FACTION THAT SET OFF THAT VOTE AGAINST YOU, SO WHEN THE CRYBABY CRISIS ERUPTED, THAT WAS A WAY TO CLEAN UP THE PARLIAMENTARY PART OF THE PARTY. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INSIGHT INTO THE EXTENT WHICH SHE WAS INVOLVED IN THE EVENTS OF THE LAST AGM. I CAN'T COMMENT ON THAT. THE COLEADERS HAVE A DUTY OF CARE TO THE STAFF AND OUR MPS. WE WERE CONCERNED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT THERE WAS A PATTERN. THE SIGNAL CHAT INCIDENT WAS ILLUSTRATIVE OF A WIDER PATTERN, THAT'S WHY WE HAD THE INTERNAL PROCESS THAT WE DID. DO YOU THINK THESE TWO EVENTS WERE DAMAGING TO THE GREEN PARTY? THE OPPOSITION CERTAINLY HAS SEIZED UPON THEM AS THE GREENS BEING UNSTABLE. DO YOU FEEL THAT THOSE TWO EVENTS HAVE BEEN DAMAGING? NOT AT ALL. WE ARE THE ONLY THE FIFTH AND SIXTH COLEADERS OF THE GREEN PARTY THAT WE'VE HAD IN THE 30 YEAR HISTORY OF THE PARTY. WE HAVE MORE STABLE LEADERSHIP THAN ANY OTHER POLITICAL PARTY. OUR POLLING AVERAGE'S HIGHER THAN IT WAS IN 2020, IT WAS HIGHER IN 2020 THAN IT WAS IN 2017, SO WE HAVE ACTUALLY DEFIED HISTORY OF SUPPORT PARTIES IN THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE DONE WHAT NO OTHER PARTY HAS DONE BEFORE, WHICH, AT THE END OF A TERM IN GOVERNMENT, HAVE COME BACK STRONGER. IF YOU LOOK AT US, OUR TRACK RECORD IS ONE OF STABILITY, DESPITE WHAT EVERY OTHER SUPPORT PARTY HAS EXPERIENCED. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT POLLING. WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THAT? I TOOK A DEEP DIVE INTO GREEN PARTY POLLING, OVER TIME, AND IT TELLS AND INTERESTING STORY. THAT THAT VOTE HAS NEVER REALLY RECOVERED FROM WHEN METIRIA TUREI LEFT THE PARTY. IT WAS AT AROUND 14% THEN. YOU'VE BEEN DOWN TO 6%. YOU'RE AT AROUND 8% NOW. WHY IS THAT? IF YOU LOOK AT OUR POLLING AVERAGE OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME— I'M LOOKING AT THAT PERIOD. BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN IT FELL OFF A CLIFF. WE WERE POLLING SORT OF AROUND 10% AND 11% CONSISTENTLY BETWEEN 2011 AND 2014. PART OF THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE STATE THAT LABOUR PARTY WAS IN AT THE TIME. AND WE WERE IN OPPOSITION RATHER THAN GOVERNMENT. I THINK THE FACT THAT WE HAVE IMPROVED OUR POLLING OVER THE COURSE OF THE SIX YEARS THAT WE'VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT DOES DEFY THE HISTORY OF SUPPORT PARTIES IN GOVERNMENT. BUT IT'S NOWHERE NEAR WHERE IT WAS. AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO COMPARE MOMENTS IN HISTORY WHEN YOU ARE IN OPPOSITION VERSUS WHEN YOU ARE IN GOVERNMENT. WE HAVE BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN ANY OTHER SUPPORTING PARTY HAS EVER BEEN IN GOVERNMENT. BUT LESS SUCCESSFUL THAN WHEN YOU WERE IN OPPOSITION. WHAT IS SUCCESS? SUCCESS IS 14%. I WOULD SAY THAT ACTUALLY, BEING IN GOVERNMENT, WE ARE ABLE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IS SUCCESS; BEING IN OPPOSITION ISN'T IN TERMS OF MAKING DECISIONS. AND THOSE TWO SEEM MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. AT THIS CAMPAIGN, WE ARE SAYING, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO MAKE DIFFERENCE, WE NEED MORE GREEN MPS IN PARLIAMENT AND MORE GREEN MINISTERS. OBVIOUSLY IT IS A NUMBERS GAME, SO I'M WITH YOU ON THAT FRONT. THE GREENS IS TO BE AN ACTIVIST PARTY WITH A PROUD HISTORY OF ACTIVISM. YOU WANTED TO STAMP THAT OUT, YOU WANTED TO TAKE IT IN A MORE MAINSTREAM DIRECTION, GET RID OF THE IMAGES OF GREEN MPS DANCING AROUND A MAYPOLE. BUT HAVE YOU GONE TOO FAR? IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS THAT WE'VE MANAGED TO ACHIEVE IN GOVERNMENT, AND THE FACT THAT OUR POLLING HAS RISEN, ON AVERAGE, SINCE WE GOT INTO GOVERNMENT IN 2017. BUT THAT WAS A LOW EBB FOR YOU BACK IN 2017. GETTING INTO GOVERNMENT WAS THE FIRST TIME WE'D BEEN IN GOVERNMENT WITH MINISTERS, SO THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE HIGHLIGHT. AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BUILT OUR SUPPORT DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME, I THINK DEMONSTRATES THAT WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO SAY IN GOVERNMENT THAT WE ARE ABLE TO DELIVER AS PART OF A COALITION GOVERNMENT, IF YOU WANT MORE OF THAT, PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE NEED MORE GREEN MPS. THAT'S WHY OUR SUPPORT IS BUILDING OVER THE TIME WE'VE BEEN A GOVERNMENT. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT SOME OF YOUR ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY AND WORK IN GOVERNMENT. YOU'VE HAD SOME WINS IN THAT PORTFOLIO. IT CAN'T BE GOING FAST ENOUGH FOR YOU. ARE YOU AT THE MERCY OF LABOUR'S APPETITE FOR CHANGE IN THE SPACE? ULTIMATELY, I AM PROUD OF THE WORK WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO, INCLUDING IN THIS TERM WHEN LABOUR HAS NOT NEEDED OUR VOTES. THAT MEANS THAT EVERYTHING WE DO AS A RESULT OF THE RELATIONSHIP RATHER THAN HAVING POLITICAL LEVERAGE THROUGH THE NUMBERS IN PARLIAMENT. BUT WE HAVE DURING THE COURSE OF THIS TERM IN PARLIAMENT, HAVE GOT THE FIRST EVER EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN, NAMED RESPONSIBILITIES UNDER A STATUTORY DOCUMENT FOR CLIMATE CHANGE. THAT IS A MASSIVE SHIFT. YOU'VE HAD THINGS LIKE NEW ZEALAND STEEL ARRANGEMENT WHICH IS GOING TO TAKE 800 TONS OF CO2 OUT OF THE ATMOSPHERE EVERY YEAR. HUGE SUCCESS WITH THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT. I THINK WE'VE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS, BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, WE SHOULD BE GOING FURTHER AND WE SHOULD BE GOING FASTER, AND THAT'S WHY AM I ARGUING FOR MORE GREEN MPS AT THIS CAMPAIGN. DOES THAT WORK HANG IN THE BALANCE? BECAUSE A SECOND EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN IS SET TO BRING IN AVIATION AND SHIPPING, AND CRUCIALLY, IT'S WHEN AGRICULTURAL PRICING BEGINS. IF NATIONAL GETS IN, IT'S ALREADY SAID IT'S GOING TO KICK THAT DOWN THE ROAD FOR FIVE YEARS. IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS A CRUCIAL MOMENT, AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE BEEN WORKING FOR HANGS IN THE BALANCE. YES, ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT IS WHY THIS ELECTION IS SO IMPORTANT. THAT OUR DECISIONS ARE CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT AND THEY WILL INFLUENCE THE DIRECTION AND MOMENTUM OF CLIMATE POLICY IN THIS COUNTRY FOR THE NEXT 15 YEARS. IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT TIME. EVERYTHING COULD BE UNDONE. IT COULD BE STALLED OR DELAYED BY THIS CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT, THAT'S GOTTA BE SCARY. THAT IS WHY WE ARE ARGUING AT THIS ELECTION TO HAVE MORE GREEN MPS IN PARLIAMENT AND GREEN MINISTERS SITTING AROUND THE CABINET TABLE. YOU ARE RELEASING SOME NEW POLICY THIS WEEKEND ON HOUSING. WHAT WE KNOW IS DEVELOPMENT BONUSES. TELL US MORE ABOUT THIS. IT WILL ALLOW MORE STOREYS TO BE ADDED. UNIVERSAL DESIGN, ENVIRONMENTAL FEATURES? CAN I JUST BEFORE I GET INTO THIS, THE CONTEXT IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE'VE ENDED UP WITH THIS REALLY TWO-DIMENSIONAL DEBATE WHERE ON THE ONE HAND, YOU ARE SAYING LET'S DO DENSITY BADLY, AND THEN ON THE OTHER HAND YOU'VE GOT, LET'S COVER-UP ALL OF OUR FARMLAND WITH URBAN SPRAWL, AND ACTUALLY WOULD LIKE TO BRING A THREE-DIMENSIONAL APPROACH WHICH IS TO SAY, WHY DON'T WE DO DENSITY WELL IN THE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE ALREADY LIVE? THESE BONUSES ARE A WAY TO SAYING TO DEVELOPERS, 'YOU CAN GET AN 'ADDITIONAL STOREY ON YOUR BUILDING 'IF YOU BUILD THAT TO A HOME STAR SEVEN RATING QUALITY,' WHICH IS REALLY GOOD IN TERMS OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY, WARMTH, DRYNESS, ET CETERA. AND ALSO ACCESSIBILITY DESIGN FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. SO THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO GO UP AND EXTRA THIRD. HOW WOULD THAT WORK FOR COUNCILS WHO WILL HAVE THEIR OWN CRITERIA? IT'S AN OVERLAY ON THOSE CRITERIA. SO IF YOU ARE IN AN AREA WHICH IS ZONED FOR THREE STOREYS, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO GO UP TO A FOURTH STOREY BUT YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO GO UP ANY FURTHER THAN THAT. YOU WOULD ADD A THIRD ON, BUT ON TOP OF WHAT IS ALREADY ZONED FOR. AND THERE'S MORE TO COME? THAT'S RIGHT. WE WILL STAY TUNED. I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO WHERE WE BEGAN, WHICH IS ABOUT YOUR FUTURE. HOW MUCH LONGER DO YOU SEE YOURSELF IN THE JOB? THIS IS NOT A LOADED QUESTION, I'M JUST WONDERING WHEN YOU'RE FINISH LINE IS. WHEN I RAN FOR CO-LEADERSHIP IN 2015, I SAID THAT MY COMMITMENT WAS TO TAKE US INTO GOVERNMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME AND TO TAKE US SAFELY OUT THE OTHER SIDE. IT IS OPEN-ENDED IN THE SENSE THAT WE ARE NOT YET DONE. I WOULD ARGUE WE ARE ONLY JUST GETTING GOING. THERE'S SO MUCH MORE THAT WE NEED TO DO. BUT YOU COULD BE SAFELY COMING UP THE OTHER SIDE, IF THE LABOUR AND THE GREENS CAN'T GET IN IN OCTOBER. I'M NOT COUNTING ON THAT. I'M PUTTING ALL MY EFFORTS INTO MAKING SURE THAT WE DO SECURE THE HISTORIC THIRD TERM. GRANT ROBERTSON STOOD ASIDE THIS YEAR IN WELLINGTON CENTRAL. THAT IS A SEAT THAT YOU HAVE CONTESTED BEFORE. IT IS WIDE OPEN, THAT WELLINGTON SEAT. BUT YOU DIDN'T GO FOR THAT. THAT TELLS ME THAT PERHAPS IT'S NOT A LONG FUTURE. THAT WOULD BE THE WRONG INFERENCE TO TAKE. I WANTED TO SAY, IF I WAS GOING TO BE THE MP FOR WELLINGTON CENTRAL, AND I THINK WE'VE GOT A REAL GOOD CHANCE OF WINNING THAT SEAT, AND TAMATHA PAUL IS AN OUTSTANDING WOMAN. BUT I WOULD WANT TO GIVE THAT JOB 100% OF MY ATTENTION. I ALSO WANT TO GIVE 100% OF MY ATTENTION TO MY JOB AS CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER. AND I DID NOT FEEL THAT I COULD DO BOTH OF THOSE FULL JUSTICE. THE PEOPLE OF WELLINGTON CENTRAL CAN GET A TWO-FOR-ONE DEAL HERE. NOW YOU'RE GONNA SELL IT. YOU HAVE IN TAMATHA A REMARKABLE WOMAN WHO'S DOING A TERRIFIC JOB IN COUNCIL AND WOULD BE AN AMAZING ADVOCATE FOR WELLINGTON CENTRAL IN PARLIAMENT. AND... WE'LL GET YOU! YOU'LL GET ME! THAT'S RIGHT. IF YOU CAN'T GET THERE AT THE END IN THE ELECTION, WILL THAT BE IT FOR YOU? I'M NOT CONTEMPLATING THAT OUTCOME, WE WILL DEAL WITH THAT IF WE GET TO IT. I'M JUST PUTTING 100% OF MY ATTENTION ON GETTING MORE GREEN MPS AND MORE MINISTERS SITTING AROUND THE NEXT CABINET. YOU'VE GOT THREE AND A HALF MONTHS. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE'LL BE BACK SOON WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL — SHANE TE POU, SIMON WILSON AND PETER DUNNE. BUT FIRST — WHY DID THE GOVERNMENT COMMIT $9m TO A 'FOREIGN INTERFERENCE WORK PROGRAMME' IN THIS YEAR'S BUDGET? PROPAGANDA RESEARCHER AI-MEN LAU AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO — WELCOME BACK. ALL EYES HAVE BEEN ON THE PM'S VISIT TO CHINA THIS WEEK. PRESIDENT XI DESCRIBING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES AS 'STRONG AND ROBUST'. BUT MEANWHILE, IN THIS YEAR'S BUDGET, OUR GOVERNMENT ALLOCATED $9M TO A 'FOREIGN INTERFERENCE WORK PROGRAMME' FOR OUR ETHNIC COMMUNITIES. TAIWAN-BASED THINK-TANK DOUBLETHINK LAB IS ALREADY STUDYING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN NEW ZEALAND'S CHINESE COMMUNITY. THEY'VE SURVEYED 1000 PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY ABOUT CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY PROPAGANDA HERE. ONE OF THE RESEARCHERS IS AI-MEN LAU. I ASKED HER WHAT STRATEGIES HER RESEARCH HAS FOUND THE CCP USES TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA IN NEW ZEALAND. OFTENTIMES IT'S THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA. A LOT OF TIMES IT'S PLATFORMING OF NARRATIVES ON WESTERN SOCIAL MEDIA, NOTABLY THOSE PLATFORMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY CENSORED IN CHINA. TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, FACEBOOK — THEY HAVE EQUIVALENTS IN CHINA OF THOSE PLATFORMS, BUT THOSE ARE CHINESE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS. WHAT ABOUT LOCAL CHINESE MEDIA? IS THAT TARGETED BY THE CCP? YES. YES. CHINESE LANGUAGE MEDIA ACROSS THE GLOBE HAS BEEN NOTED AND HAS BEEN REPORTED TO BE TARGETED AND CO-OPTED AND INFLUENCED BY THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY. IS THIS HAPPENING HERE IN NEW ZEALAND-BASED CHINESE MEDIA? DO YOU KNOW THAT? I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY RESEARCH DELVING INTO THIS TOPIC. HOWEVER, I DON'T THINK IT IS A STRETCH TO SAY THAT IT IS NOT HAPPENING. SO IN YOUR RESEARCH YOU CONCENTRATED ON INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE, PERHAPS, SUBJECTED TO CCP PROPAGANDA, AS YOU SAY. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THAT, AND WHAT DID YOU FIND? THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH AND REPORTING ON HOW THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTIES HAVE RAMPED UP THEIR EFFORTS TO TARGET OVERSEAS CHINESE COMMUNITIES. THEY SEE OVERSEAS CHINESE COMMUNITIES AS THEIR CITIZENS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY HAVE PRC CITIZENSHIP. RIGHT. THIS RESEARCH REALLY DELVES INTO THE QUESTION IS, ARE THERE CERTAIN FACTORS THAT MIGHT MAKE THESE COMMUNITIES MORE SUSCEPTIBLE OR NOT SUSCEPTIBLE TO PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA? AND EXACTLY WHAT IS THAT IMPACT? AND WHAT WE FOUND WAS ACTUALLY QUITE A DIVERSE RANGE OF ANSWERS. AND I THINK THAT REALLY SPEAKS TO HOW THESE OVERSEAS CHINESE COMMUNITIES ARE VERY DIVERSE, INCLUDING IN NEW ZEALAND. RIGHT. SO WHY DID YOU CHOOSE NEW ZEALAND? WE CHOSE NEW ZEALAND PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF SIZE. WE SURVEYED BOTH NEW ZEALAND AND MALAYSIA. YOU SAY YOU FOUND DIVERSE RESPONSES. DID YOU FIND THAT THE CHINESE COMMUNITY HERE IS MORE IN FAVOUR OF THE CCP PROPAGANDA OR DISBELIEVING OF IT? SO OVERALL LEVELS OF AGREEMENT OF PRO CCP PROPAGANDA WERE HIGHER IN CHINESE COMMUNITIES HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. HOWEVER, THAT IS TO SAY THAT WE DID SEE DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF IDENTIFICATION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHINESE. SO WHILE THERE WAS OVERALL LEVELS OF HIGHER AGREEMENT WITH PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA WITH THOSE WHO IDENTIFIED AS MALAYSIAN-CHINESE OR CHINESE, WE ACTUALLY SAW QUITE MUCH HIGHER LEVELS OF DISAGREEMENT AMONG THE TAIWANESE, THE HONG KONGERS AND THE SINGAPOREAN CHINESE. OVERALL, WE DID SEE HIGHER LEVELS OF AGREEMENT. WHY IS THAT? IS IT JUST BECAUSE OF WHERE THEY'RE GETTING THEIR INFORMATION, OR DO THEY NOT TRUST THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT? WE DID FIND THAT THOSE WHO WERE MORE LIKELY TO AGREE WITH PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA ALSO HAD VERY HIGH CHINESE SOCIAL MEDIA USE. ADDITIONALLY, THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO CONSUME MEDIA FROM CHINA OR CHINESE LANGUAGE NEWS IN NEW ZEALAND. DID YOUR RESEARCH FIND OUT WHETHER RECENTLY WITH BORDERS CLOSED AND THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, ORIGINATING IN CHINA, WHETHER CHINESE CITIZENS HERE, OR CHINESE RESIDENTS HERE, FELT MORE DISCONNECTED WITH NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A LEVEL OF BLAME? WE DIDN'T EXAMINE FOR THAT IN OUR RESEARCH, I WOULD SAY. HOWEVER, I WILL SAY ON THAT POINT, THOUGH, THOSE WHO WERE MORE CONCERNED WITH RACISM AND RACE RELATIONS WERE MORE LIKELY TO AGREE WITH PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA. SO IF THEY HAD EXPERIENCED RACISM IN NEW ZEALAND AGAINST THEM, THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO AGREE WITH CHINESE PROPAGANDA? IF THEY EXPERIENCED IT OR IF THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IT. YOU KNOW, MAYBE HEARING REPORTS OF RACISM MIGHT BE MORE CONCERNING TO THEM. THEY MIGHT HAVE MORE LIKELIHOOD TO BELIEVE IN PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA. YOU SAY IN YOUR FINDINGS THAT THE CCP IS SOWING DISTRUST IN GOVERNMENT. DO YOU HAVE EXAMPLES OF THAT? IT'S MORE SO ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MAKING FRIENDS AND WINNING INFLUENCE RATHER THAN SOWING DISTRUST. IT'S MORE SIMILAR TO JUST EXERTING INFLUENCE THROUGH MEANS OF TRADE, ECONOMIC RELATIONS, BUSINESS ENGAGEMENT. WHAT ABOUT SPONSORING POLITICAL PARTIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT? AND POLITICAL FINANCING AS WELL. POLITICAL FINANCING? YEAH. OK. AT THE MOMENT WE'VE HAD OUR PRIME MINISTER IN CHINA ON AN IMPORTANT TRIP. DURING THAT, PRESIDENT XI SAID NEW ZEALAND IS A FRIEND, AND THERE'S BEEN SOME CRITICISM OF OUR PRIME MINISTER FOR NOT GOING HARD ENOUGH ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES LIKE THE UIGHURS IN THE CAMPS. DOES THAT MAKE CHINESE NEW ZEALANDERS MORE LIKELY TO BELIEVE CCP PROPAGANDA IF WE'RE NOT PUBLICLY HARSH ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA? IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT A POLITICAL STANCE ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN CHINA WOULD MAKE SOMEONE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO PRO-CCP PROPAGANDA. THERE IS AN ENCROACHMENT THAT WE'RE SEEING AND THAT SOME COMMUNITIES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. ALSO AS WELL, THERE IS COMING TO LIGHT MORE AWARENESS GLOBALLY ABOUT FOREIGN TRANSNATIONAL REPRESSION, WHICH THE CHINESE DIASPORA BEARS THE BRUNT OF. THIS COMES IN THE FORM OF SURVEILLANCE, SUPPRESSING DISSENT OVERSEAS THROUGH MEANS OF TACTICS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE AS TO WHETHER THAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN NEW ZEALAND? I HAVEN'T SEEN RESEARCH EXAMINING THIS QUITE YET. HOWEVER, I THINK IF THERE WAS TO BE MORE ENGAGEMENT WITH THE COMMUNITY, THERE MIGHT BE SOME THINGS WOULD COME TO LIGHT. AND ON THAT, THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED A PROGRAM TO LOOK AT FOREIGN INTERFERENCE AND ENGAGE WITH ETHNIC COMMUNITIES. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD FIND? ONE THING MIGHT BE INTERESTING THAT THEY MIGHT FIND IS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT BE RELUCTANT TO COME FORWARD. RELUCTANT? RELUCTANT TO COME FORWARD. YES. WE SEE THIS IN OTHER COUNTRIES SUCH AS CANADA. WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE WHO ARE RELUCTANT TO COME FORWARD BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT WHAT THEY MIGHT ENGAGE WITH — POLITICALLY SENSITIVE TOPICS — MIGHT LAND THEIR FAMILIES IN HOT WATER BACK HOME. WE'RE JUST ABOUT TO ENTER INTO A GENERAL ELECTION HERE THIS OCTOBER. WHAT ACTIVITY, GIVEN YOUR AREA OF RESEARCH, WOULD YOU EXPECT TO SEE FROM THE CCP DURING THAT KIND OF TIME? I THINK FROM WHAT I OBSERVED IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THERE WILL BE CERTAINLY PUSHES TO SWAY US AND TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR CERTAIN CANDIDATES. I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME FUNDING THAT NEEDS TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED, AND I THINK ALSO THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE CIVIC ENGAGEMENT WITH THESE COMMUNITIES. SO THERE WILL BE A SORT OF LIKE A CAMPAIGN TO INFLUENCE? THERE MIGHT BE A CAMPAIGN TO INFLUENCE. I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED. I WOULD SAY THAT THE CHINESE DIASPORA IS THE FOREGROUND OF INFLUENCE, AND THAT IS WHERE THE ENGAGEMENT AND THE RESEARCH AND THE MONITORING REALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN. AND DOUBLETHINK LAB RECEIVES 5% OF ITS FUNDING FROM THE TAIWANESE GOVERNMENT. A MURI AKE NEI — IF YOU'VE FELT THE PAIN OF BAD PUBLIC TRANSPORT, THIS IS THE INTERVIEW FOR YOU — AUCKLAND TRANSPORT'S NEW CEO DEAN KIMPTON, LIVE. PLUS, ROBUST PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS, OR UNSEEMLY GLOATING IN THE HOUSE? YOU DECIDE, AFTER THE BREAK. IF YOU'VE CAUGHT A BUS IN AUCKLAND OR WELLINGTON IN THE PAST YEAR, THERE'S GOOD CHANCE IT HASN'T BEEN THE ONE YOU PLANNED TO CATCH. DELAYS AND CANCELLATIONS HAVE PLAGUED TRAINS AND BUSSES, ESPECIALLY IN AUCKLAND. AND COMMUTERS ARE NOT HAPPY. THOUSANDS OF CANCELLED SERVICES DUE TO THE DRIVER SHORTAGE. COMMUTER UPON COMMUTER LINING THE KERB AS AUCKLAND TRANSPORT STRUGGLED TO MEET A SUDDEN SURGE IN DEMAND. FOUR HOURS OF WHAT I WOULD CALL ABSOLUTE CHAOS. IT'S DEFINITELY NOT THE BEST, I'LL SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF ACCESS. THE 20-MINUTE WAIT IS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE FIXED. WE NEED BETTER SERVICE FROM THE NORTH SHORE. YEAH, IT'S A LITTLE BIT LATE EVERY NOW AND THEN. COMPARED TO WELLINGTON, AUCKLAND HAS THE BEST TRANSPORT. OH, NOT WHEN THINGS ARE DELAYED AND THE FERRIES DON'T RUN. FERRIES WERE ACTUALLY ON TIME TODAY. (BOTH CHUCKLE) YEAH, PROBABLY JUST NEED A BIT OF A CLEAN. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, IT'S GREAT. THE TRAINS ARE ALL RIGHT, BUT THEN THEY'RE NOT RUNNING WHERE I LIVE. SO THE STATION IS CLOSED. YEAH, YOU'RE PRETTY MUCH STUCK WHERE YOU ARE. YOU GET TO YOUR NEXT DESTINATION, AND THEN YOUR BUS HAS BEEN CANCELLED FOR ANOTHER HOUR OR TWO HOURS. THE CYCLEWAY ROUTES ARE GOOD. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY SOMETIMES JUST STOP, AND THEN YOU JUST HAVE TO GO OUT IN AMONGST THE CARS, AND IT'S DANGEROUS. SOMETIMES THEY COME; SOMETIMES THEY DON'T COME, LIKE, VERY UNPREDICTABLE. TRAINS ARE TERRIBLE. THEY ARE NEVER RUNNING, AND IT'S REALLY ANNOYING. ALL MY TRAINS ARE CANCELLED. PRETTY GOOD. IT'S BETTER THAN IRELAND. THE TRAIN SERVICE IS GREAT. IT'S ASS. WE'D LIKE TO INVEST MILLIONS MORE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S LIMITS TO EVERYTHING. YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE IT WORK. WELL, A MIXTURE OF VIEWS, MOST OF THEM NEGATIVE. IT DOESN'T HELP THAT AUCKLAND TRANSPORT HAS JUST HAD TO CUT ITS BUDGET TO HELP FIX THE COUNCIL'S DEBT PROBLEM. SO HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE SERVICE WITH LESS MONEY? AUCKLAND TRANSPORT CEO DEAN KIMPTON JOINS ME NOW, TENA KOE. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. LET'S TALK CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. BUSES, TRAINS, FERRIES IN MAY, 23% OF CUSTOMERS RATED IT 8 OUT OF 10. YOU CAN'T BE HAPPY WITH THAT. NO, WE'RE NOT HAPPY WITH THAT. EVERYTHING WE'RE DOING IS FOCUSED ON ADDRESSING THAT. I'M REALLY PLEASED TO SAY THAT AS WE'VE LOOKED TO RESTORE SERVICES — REMEMBER, BEFORE CHRISTMAS, IT WAS 15% OF ALL SERVICES CANCELLED — AS IT STANDS TODAY, LESS THAN 5%. SO WE ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO GET THOSE SERVICES BACK, KEEP CUSTOMERS SATISFIED. 96% OF ALL PEOPLE BEFORE COVID ARE STILL CATCHING A BUS, THEY'RE JUST CATCHING IT LESS. OK. SO PEOPLE ARE USING IT, BUT THE SATISFACTION RATES ARE NOT GREAT. YOUR STATS DON'T LINE UP WITH WHAT PUBLIC TRANSPORT'S — YOU SAY THAT PUNCTUALITY IS ON TARGET, BUT THE PEOPLE CATCHING THESE THINGS ARE SAYING THEY'RE NOT TURNING UP ON TIME. WHY IS THERE A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE TWO? IN JANUARY THIS YEAR WE WERE 570 BUS DRIVERS SHORT. TODAY, WE'RE 164. WE HAVE ADDRESSED SALARIES, STAFFING SHORTAGES ON BUSES, ON FERRIES; END OF JULY, WE WANT A FULL COMPLEMENT BACK. BY THE END OF JULY? BY THE END OF JULY. THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORWARD FROM SEPTEMBER. YEP, AND WE'RE REALLY PLEASED WITH THAT. BUT YOU COULD MAKE THIS BETTER FOR PEOPLE. ONE OF THEIR GRIPES IS THEY ARE NOT GETTING CLEAR COMMUNICATION ABOUT WHEN SERVICES ARE DELAYED, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT 85% AT THE LAST SURVEY. YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE GRUMPINESS, AND YOU HAVE YEARS OF GRUMPINESS TO OVERCOME. WE DO. THAT IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE HAVE. WE HAVE BROUGHT BUS DRIVERS BACK ON, WE WILL BRING FERRY DRIVERS BACK ON. YOU'VE SEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE TRAIN NETWORKS. SO WE KNOW WE HAVE SIGNIFICANT ISSUES ACROSS ALL THE NETWORKS. WE ALSO NEED CERTAINTY OF FUNDING TO DELIVER THOSE SERVICES. THIS YEAR WE DROPPED THEM 20%, TO ADDRESS BUDGET CUTS, BUT IF WE DON'T GET CERTAINTY OF FUNDING, BUT WE MAY HAVE TO REDUCE NEXT YEAR. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES ON THE TABLE. WE CAN'T RUN A BUSINESS LIKE THIS. THE TARGET IS TO RESTORE LEVELS TO PRE-COVID LEVELS. OUR TARGET IS THAT LATE THIS YEAR, EARLY NEXT YEAR, WE WANT TO BE BACK AT 100 MILLION PASSENGER MOVEMENTS PER YEAR, WHICH IS EQUIVALENT TO WHAT WE WERE AROUND PRE-COVID. YOU CAN'T DO THAT IF YOU REDUCE SERVICES BY 20%. NO, WE CAN'T. BUT WE HAVE RESTORED THE FUNDING THAT ALLOWS US TO GO BACK TO THAT 100 MILLION. THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE ACHIEVED. YOU'RE SAYING THE FUNDING IS THERE TO RESTORE TO PRE-COVID LEVELS. HOW CAN YOU DO THAT WHEN YOU HAD TO CUT $32.5 MILLION FROM YOUR BUDGET? WITH A LOT OF HARD WORK FROM A VERY GOOD TEAM TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE AS OPERATIONALLY EFFICIENT AS WE CAN BE. SO WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO BOTH. BUT YOU HAVE TO CUT OTHER THINGS TO GET THAT. IF YOU'RE GOING TO RESTORE SERVICES TO THAT LEVEL, OTHER THINGS HAVE TO GO. THAT'S RIGHT. SO WHAT IS GOING? UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE HAD TO LET GO OF A NUMBER OF STAFF. HOW MANY? 142. FULL-TIME ROLES? FULL-TIME ROLES. WHAT KIND OF STAFF? ACROSS THE BOARD, RANGE OF SUPPORT STAFF, PROJECT MANAGERS, ETC. IS THAT PROCESS FINISHED, OR IS THAT UNDERGOING? THE PROCESS IS FINISHED. SO YOU'VE CUT STAFF, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO CUT OTHER THINGS AS WELL, LIKE PROJECTS. CORRECT. WE'VE HAD TO REDUCE PROJECTS, OPERATIONAL EFFICIENCIES, WE'VE STRUCK BETTER DEALS WITH OUR SUPPLIERS, SO IT IS A BROAD SWEEP OF INITIATIVES TO ADDRESS COST. ONE OF THE COST AREAS, AND ONE OF THE AREAS THAT YOU'VE CUT A LOT, IT SEEMS TO BE, CYCLING AND ROAD CORRIDOR IMPROVEMENTS, AND THE BUDGETS SAYS THEY ARE DOWN BY 63%. I MEAN, THAT'S NOT GONNA GET PEOPLE OUT OF CARS. WE HAVE A DEEP CONCERN ABOUT MAINTAINING EXISTING NETWORKS. NO QUESTION. THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES WE PUT BEFORE COUNCIL AND THE GOVERNMENT. YOU CANNOT CONTINUE TO GROW YOUR ASSET BASE AND PUT NEW ASSETS INTO THE SYSTEM WITHOUT SUPPORTING THE RENEWALS AND MAINTENANCE FUNDING. AND THAT'S THE CORE ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT, THAT IS, HOW DO YOU, IN THE LONG TERM, FUND WHAT WILL GO FROM $26 BILLION ASSET BASE TO A $40 BILLION ASSET BASE THAT NEEDS TO BE MAINTAINED SO YOU CAN JUST DELIVER THE SAME LEVEL OF SERVICE? IF WE DON'T GET TO THAT TOPIC, THEN WE'RE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE NEXT ONE MONTH, SIX MONTHS, 12 MONTHS. SHORT-TERMISM, RIGHT? YES, CORRECT. SO YOU ARE HAVING TO DO $32.5M WORTH OF BUDGET CUTS, YET YOU ARE SAYING YOU NEED FAR MORE CERTAINTY AND FUNDING IN THE FUTURE. SO IS THE NETWORK GOING TO STAY AS-IS AT THE MOMENT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CERTAINTY? IF WE DO NOT RESOLVE THE REVENUE SIDE, WHICH IS THE TAX SIDE, THE FUEL EXCISE DUTIES, THE ROAD USER CHARGES, WILL WE BRING IN TOLLS OR CONGESTION CHARGING, HOW WILL WE FUND THE TRANSPORT SYSTEM WE DESIRE? WE HAVE BEEN HAVING THIS CONGESTION CHARGING DISCUSSION FOREVER. DO YOU WANT CONGESTION CHARGES IN AUCKLAND? I WANT US TO SOLVE HOW TO FUND OUR TRANSPORT SYSTEM. AND IF PART OF IT IS CONGESTION CHARGING, THEN YES. BUT WE NEED TO STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT IT AND THEN DO SOMETHING, AND NOT TALK ABOUT IT. SO THAT'S THE LONG-TERM FUNDING ISSUE. IT IS NOT LONG-TERM. IT'S GOT TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS, OTHERWISE WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE $40B WORTH OF ASSETS. YOUR BUDGET DOCUMENTS DO SAY BY 2024, 2025 YOU ARE GOING TO PINCH POINT FUNDING. ABSOLUTELY. WE'VE GOT TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE. LET'S GO BACK TO WHAT YOU ARE CUTTING. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO CYCLISTS WHEN YOU HAVE TO REDUCE THOSE KINDS OF CONNECTED COMMUNITIES PROGRAMS, WHICH YOU'VE SCRAPPED, WHEN CYCLEWAYS AND CYCLING CORRIDORS AND ROAD CORRIDORS, THOSE PROGRAMS ARE BEING REDUCED. CONNECTED COMMUNITIES WAS MORE THAN JUST CYCLING. IT WAS ABOUT SOME PLACE-MAKING. BUT FOR SURE, WE HAVE REDUCED CYCLING. BUT WE HAVE ALSO REDUCED OUR RENEWALS AND MAINTENANCE AND OTHER CAPITAL WORKS. SO IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT CYCLING. THIS IS NOT A BIG TRADE-OFF IN CYCLING. WE JUST APPROVED GREAT NORTH ROAD, BUT YOU'VE GOT PT CHEV, GLEN INNES, TAMAKI, ALL THOSE BIG URBAN CYCLE WORKS ARE STILL CONTINUING. SO THE ONES YOU'VE COMMITTED TO... WE'RE DOING. THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WE DO WE DO IN THE FUTURE? WHAT WE'VE SAID IS WE THINK THERE'S A MORE COST-EFFECTIVE WAY OF DELIVERING A CYCLE NETWORK WITHOUT THESE LARGE URBAN PROJECTS. SO HOW DO WE DELIVER EFFECTIVE KILOMETRES AT A REDUCED COST? YOU ARE COMMITTED TO REDUCING THE REDUCTIONS, THE EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS, THE TERP PLAN AS IT IS CALLED, BUT THAT INVOLVES GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF CARS, A MODE-SWITCH, AS IT WERE. ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT WHAT YOU HAVE JUST CUT IS GOING TO ENABLE THAT? SO WE HAVE TO RETHINK THE QUESTION. IF WE THINK THAT REDUCING EMISSIONS IS GOING TO BE THROUGH CYCLING AND WALKING, WE WILL NEVER GET THERE. IT IS THROUGH PUBLIC TRANSPORT, AND THINKING ABOUT, 'WHAT DOES EMISSIONS REDUCTION MEAN?' FOR EVERY INVESTMENT DECISION WE MAKE. AND SO THAT'S OUR COMMITMENT, IT'S THINKING THAT THROUGH. SO FOR EVERY CAPITAL PROJECT, EVERY BUSWAY, CYCLEWAY, WHAT DOES IT MEAN? DO YOU THINK THERE HAS BEEN TOO MUCH EMPHASIS PLACED ON CYCLING AND WALKING? NO, I DON'T THINK THERE HAS BEEN TOO MUCH EMPHASIS PLACED ON CYCLING AND WALKING. IT IS AN IMPORTANT PART. BUT YOU'RE SAYING IT IS NOT THE WAY TO GET EMISSIONS REDUCTION. IT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY. THE GAME-CHANGER, IF YOU WANT TO REDUCE EMISSIONS AND VEHICLE USE, WILL BE TO ENHANCE PUBLIC TRANSPORT. THAT IS WHY I CAN SAY CONFIDENTLY THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO GET ANYWHERE NEAR OUR EMISSIONS REDUCTION TARGET, YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE PASSENGER TRIPS FROM 100 MILLION THIS YEAR TO 200 MILLION OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE NEXT FEW YEARS, THEN. WHAT DOES THE GOLD-STANDARD PUBLIC TRANSPORT NETWORK LOOK LIKE IN FREQUENCY AND PASSENGER TRIPS? SO GOLD-STANDARD FOR ME WOULD BE 2% OF TRIPS MIGHT BE CANCELLED OR DELAYED. 98% IS OUR TARGET. THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE. BUT THAT IS EXISTING TRIPS. YOU ARE SAYING 200 MILLION TRIPS, BY WHAT TIMEFRAME? OVER THE NEXT 10 YEARS, BY MID-2030S. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE WILL HAVE GROWN AS A CITY BY 400-500,000. SO FREQUENCY OF SERVICE, NOTIFICATIONS, CLARITY OF COMMUNICATIONS? SAFE, RELIABLE, FREQUENT, FAST, PREFERENCE... HOW FAR AWAY ARE YOU FROM THAT NOW? ARE YOU A LONG WAY AWAY? ON THE EXISTING BUS NETWORK, WE'D EXPECT THAT WE WILL HAVE RESTORED THE FREQUENCY AND RELIABILITY AND SAFETY. OUR TARGET IS TO GET THAT BY THE END OF THIS YEAR. IN TERMS OF SPEED, WE ARE LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN BETTER MANAGE OUR NETWORK SO WE CAN GIVE PREFERENCE TO BUSES. SO THAT'S A TECHNOLOGY INVESTMENT THAT WE ARE COMMITTED TO AND WE STARTED ON. AND WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT CUSTOMER SATISFACTION BACK? WHEN YOU DON'T SEE PEOPLE SAYING ON THE STREET THAT IT'S 'ASS'. YEAH, I KNOW. THAT IS TERRIBLE, AND I'M DISAPPOINTED TOO. SO EVERYTHING WE'RE DOING IS LINING UP TO DELIVER AWESOME CUSTOMER SATISFACTION AND EXPERIENCE. SO DEEPLY COMMITTED TO THAT, AND IF WE ARE EVER GOING TO GET FROM 100 MILLION PASSENGER TRIPS TO 200 MILLION, GUESS WHAT — WE'LL DO THAT THROUGH DELIGHTING OUR CUSTOMERS, AND THEY'LL SAY 'I WANT TO DO THAT INSTEAD OF A CAR.' OK. DEAN KIMPTON, GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR JOB. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. DEAN KIMPTON, A.T. CEO THERE. E WHAI AKE NEI — OUR POLITICAL PANEL SHANE TE POU, SIMON WILSON AND PETER DUNNE — ON THE OFFICE DRAMA ALLEGATIONS DIRECTED AT MINISTER KIRI ALLAN. PLUS, WITH SO MANY COMMERCIAL CROPS RUINED, IS IT TIME TO START GROWING OUR OWN FOOD? A SPECIAL REPORT FROM GUEST REPORTER ALEXA COOK. KIRI ALLAN RETURNED FROM MENTAL HEALTH LEAVE THIS WEEK TO ACCUSATIONS SHE HAS TREATED STAFF IN HER OFFICE POORLY. BUT SHE HAS CLAPPED BACK — SAYING IT'S NOTHING BUT AN OPPOSITION 'FISHING EXPEDITION'. HOW ARE YOU DOING? I'M WELL, THANK YOU. HAPPY TO BE BACK AT WORK. THE ALLEGATIONS RELATE TO REPORTS THAT LEADERSHIP AND MINISTRIES RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT THE TREATMENT OF STAFF SECONDED TO HER OFFICE. THE KEY ISSUE HERE IS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS. I HAVEN'T HAD THOSE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS PUT TO ME. YOU OIA'D EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN AND YOU HAVE STILL YET TO CHURN ANYTHING UP. HEADS AT THE MEGA MINISTRY MBIE TODAY BACKED ALLEN. I'M NOT AWARE OF ISSUES OR CONCERNS. I HAVE HAD FAR MORE CHALLENGING MINISTERS TO DEAL WITH IN THE PAST. DO YOU HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN KIRI ALLAN? I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN ALL OF MY MINISTERS. SHE IS SOMEONE WHO'S VERY DEAR TO US, AND SHE'S BEEN GOING THROUGH A HARD TIME. I WANT PEOPLE TO BE PRETTY CHUFFED WHEN THEY'RE WORKING— WHEN WE'RE WORKING IN THE TRENCHES TOGETHER. IF THERE'S BEEN A POINT WHERE THAT HASN'T BEEN QUITE RIGHT, WELL, GOODNESS GRACIOUS TO ME, WE CRACK ON TO GET THERE. PLENTY TO GET INTO THERE FOR OUR PANEL, FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE AND INTERIM CEO OF MEGA, SHANE TE POU, HERALD SENIOR WRITER SIMON WILSON AND FORMER UNITED FUTURE LEADER PETER DUNNE — TENA KOUTOU, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. I WANT TO START WITH KIRI, BECAUSE WE HAVE JUST SEEN THAT FOOTAGE. PETER, YOU HAVE BEEN A MINISTER. PARLIAMENT IS A DYNAMIC ENVIRONMENT. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU WERE WATCHING THIS WEEK? FIRSTLY, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS SUBSTANCE OR NOT TO THE ALLEGATIONS. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS THE DAMAGE THEY DO TO ONGOING CREDIBILITY BY COMING ON THE WAKE OF OTHER THINGS. BUT I THINK WHAT IT RAISES FOR ME, AS DOES THE WOOD CASE, AND EVEN ELEMENTS OF THE NASH CASE BEFOREHAND, THAT FRANKLY, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE SERVING AS MINISTERS WHO DON'T SEEM TO KNOW WHAT THE RESPONSIBILITIES THEY HAVE TAKEN ON ACTUALLY IMPLY, AND DON'T SEEM TO KNOW HOW TO CONDUCT THEMSELVES, WHETHER IT BE FILLING IN A DISCLOSURE FORM OR HOW YOU TREAT STAFF. TO ME THAT IS THE BIGGER ISSUE THAN THE PARTICULARITIES OF WHAT SHE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SAID, OR THE TONE OF VOICE SHE USED. SHANE, I CAN TELL YOU WANT TO JUMP IN HERE. KIRI HAS HAD THIS METEORIC RISE, HASN'T SHE? THAT'S A LOT, TO GO FROM A NEW MP TO A MINISTER IN A SHORT SPACE OF TIME. WHAT HAVE WE GOT? WE HAVE AN UN-NAMED ALLEGATION, A YEAR OLD, THAT SHE YELLED AND SCREAMED, WHICH BASICALLY MEANS THE SAME THING, WHICH MEANS THEY'VE USED THAT FOR EFFECT. AND I DON'T THINK YOU CAN COMPARE IT TO THE NASH OR THE WOOD ISSUE. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN ISOLATION. I THINK THIS IS A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL. WHAT, REALLY, ARE THEY SAYING? PARLIAMENTARY OFFICES ARE ROBUST AND STRONG. PETER KNOWS THAT, HE HAD TO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES WHEN HE HAD TO RESIGN AS A MINISTER AND COME BACK THE NEXT TERM. BUT ALSO, I FIND THE HYPOCRISY OF THE NATIONAL PARTY, PARTICULARLY SIMEON BROWN IN THE SAME WEEK, STICKING UP FOR WORKERS IN PARLIAMENT, TRYING TO SCREW WORKERS IN TERMS OF TAKING AWAY THEIR COLLECTIVE RIGHTS. DE-UNIONISATION, WE'VE SEEN THAT WITH ACT AND CONTRACTORS. HYPOCRISY IS THERE FOR ALL TO SEE. SIMON— JUMP IN, GO ON. I WAS GOING TO SAY, SHANE'S PHRASE, A 'ROBUST ENVIRONMENT' IN PARLIAMENT — IT IS ALL THAT AND MORE. WE MUST HAVE ALL HEARD STORIES OF VERY TENSE MEETINGS AND ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE HAPPENED, AND PROBABLY A LOT. AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THIS GOVERNMENT, IT HAS CLEARLY HAD REAL ISSUES WITH THE PUBLIC SERVICE, NOT BEING ON THE SAME PAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN. WHERE IS THE FAILURE OF DELIVERY, WHAT'S CAUSED THAT? YOU COULD BLAME THE POLITICIANS OR PUBLIC SERVICE, WE DON'T KNOW THE DETAIL EVER, ABOUT THOSE THINGS. BUT IT IS NO SURPRISE AT ALL TO ME TO HEAR THAT SOME MINISTERS ARE BEHAVING BADLY WITH PUBLIC SERVANTS. I'M NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE BEHAVIOUR, BUT IT IS CLEAR IN MY MIND THAT THOSE RELATIONSHIPS MUST BE VERY FRACTIOUS. WHAT THEY DO, TO THE AVERAGE VOTER, NONE OF THIS MATTERS. WHAT THE AVERAGE VOTER SEES IS A SERIES OF INCIDENTS WHERE MINISTERS HAVE COME UP LOOKING A LITTLE SHABBY. THEY PAINT A PICTURE IN THEIR MIND OF WHEELS FALLING OFF CHARIOTS. I THINK YOU SAW A TONE OF THE FRUSTRATION AND ANGER AND WANTING TO GET ONTO THE NEXT THING IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S COMMENTS, LAST NIGHT. HE COULDN'T TURN AWAY QUICKLY ENOUGH FROM THE QUESTIONS. AGAIN, VOTERS WILL LOOK AT THAT AND SAY, 'WHAT IS HE HIDING? WHY IS HE NOT FRONTING?' AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS THOSE THINGS THAT MATTER WHEN PEOPLE DECIDE WHO THEY WANT. DOESN'T SPECIFIC POLICY, ISN'T THAT WHAT PEOPLE WANT? I THINK WORKPLACE BULLYING IS REAL AND IT'S MEANINGFUL. YOU LOOK AT ALL THE SUPPORT THAT PARLIAMENTARY WORKERS HAVE. YOU COMPARE IT TO THE YOUNG 18-YEAR-OLD WOMAN WHO WORKS IN THE CAFE, OR THE GUY WHO POURS MY PINT AT THE PUB, AND THE LACK OF STRUCTURE AND SUPPORT THAT THEY HAVE. AND WHAT DO NATIONAL AND ACT WANT TO DO? THEY WANT TO DIMINISH IT EVEN MORE. THOSE ARE THE REAL ISSUES THAT COUNT WHEN IT COMES TO WORKPLACE BULLYING. ABSOLUTELY, BUT WE DO KNOW AS WELL THAT PARLIAMENT IS PARTICULARLY SINGULAR IN TERMS OF THOSE POWER DYNAMICS. I WANT TO SWITCH ON TO YOUR POINT ABOUT HIPKINS IN CHINA. IT SEEMS THAT HE DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB AS AN AMATEUR DIPLOMAT, SIMON? YOU DON'T NEED TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. MATTHEW HOOTON WROTE A VERY GOOD COLUMN IN THE HERALD ON FRIDAY WHICH WAS SUBSTANTIALLY ABOUT HIPKINS' ROLE IN CHINA. HE MADE THE POINT THERE, THAT DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP IS FAR MORE COMPLICATED AND DIFFICULT TO GET RIGHT THAN MOST PEOPLE REALISE, BUT HIPKINS SEEMS TO HAVE GONE THROUGH IT VERY WELL. I THOUGHT THAT WAS INSIGHTFUL. PETER, WHAT DID YOU THINK? I AGREE. I THINK IT IS A VERY CHALLENGING RELATIONSHIP. THE FIRST TIME THE PRIME MINISTER HAS BEEN TO CHINA IN FOUR YEARS. THERE IS OTHER STUFF SWIRLING AROUND ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT MAHUTA WAS ATTACKED BY THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTER. I THOUGHT HE DID EXCEPTIONALLY WELL, HE LOOKED PRETTY GOOD, UP UNTIL THE KIRI ALLAN STUFF, HE WAS VERY MUCH ON-SONG, AND I THINK HE SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF HIS ACHIEVEMENTS. AS THEY SAY, THE PROBLEM IS, PERCEPTION BECOMES REALITY, AND THE PERCEPTION SHIFTS QUICKLY FROM THIS TO THE NEXT THING. YES, BRUTAL, ISN'T IT? YOU CAN DO A GOOD JOB, AND NEXT DAY, YOU'RE BACK INTO IT. SHANE. I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE A NUANCED WAY IN WHICH THEY STRUCTURED IT. MINISTER MAHUTA HAD A FULL AND FRANK EXCHANGE. SHE HAS BEEN REASONABLY STRONG ON ISSUES OF HUMAN RIGHTS WITHIN CHINA. MINISTER HIPKINS AND HIS STRONG DELEGATION WENT UP THERE AND GOT SOME RUNS ON THE BOARD. THEY HAVE GOT MORE TRAVEL TO CHINA IN SOME OF THOSE MORE HIGH-YIELD TOURISM PLACES, AND IT WILL BE A WIN FOR AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND. IT IS WORTH REMEMBERING THAT THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE 'FULL AND FRANK EXCHANGE' THAT MAHUTA WAS PUT THROUGH CAME FROM THE AUSTRALIAN NEWSPAPER, RUPERT MURDOCH NEWSPAPER, WHICH HAS CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT SINCE DAY ONE. AND YOU CAN SEE IT IS ANOTHER EPISODE. A LITTLE UNDER THE LINE THERE. I WANT TO CHAT TO YOU, PETER, ABOUT JAMES SHAW. YOU HAVE LEAD A SMALL PARTY. WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT HIS PERFORMANCE THIS MORNING? IT HAS BEEN A TUMULTUOUS YEAR FOR THEM, HASN'T IT? HE'S DONE VERY WELL, I THINK. IT'S A REAL BODY BLOW TO HAVE YOUR PARTY VOTE NO CONFIDENCE IN YOU, AS THEY DID EFFECTIVELY, LAST YEAR. I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SURPRISED IF HE HAD SAID HE WAS OUT OF THERE. BUT HE HAS COME BACK EXTREMELY STRONGLY. I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY INTERESTING THAT HE WAS A LITTLE COY RESPONDING TO QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS FUTURE, THAT'S NOT SURPRISING. BUT I HAVE LONG HAD THE VIEW THAT IF HE IS NOT THE MINISTER OF CLIMATE CHANGE NEXT YEAR THERE IS A READY WAY OUT FOR HIM, WHICH IS THAT JUST BY COINCIDENCE, THE TERM OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION CHAIR COMES UP NEXT YEAR. IF I WAS THE MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IN A DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT, I WOULD BE THINKING, 'WHAT A COUP IT WOULD BE TO GET THE CURRENT MINISTER 'TO SHIFT OVER TO THAT ROLE.' IT MIGHT BE A CONVENIENT WAY FOR JAMES, IF THAT'S THE OUTCOME, TO CONTINUE HIS WORK. HIS WHOLE CAREER HAS BEEN PREDICATED ON BECOMING CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER INSIDE THE CABINET, AND THAT'S WHAT HE BELIEVES HE'S ON THE EDGE OF DOING. AND REMEMBER, HE DIDN'T HAVE A VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE FROM HIS PARTY, THE PARTY IS SO DEMOCRATIC THAT THERE WAS A TRIGGER BECAUSE A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAID THEY WANT TO PUT THIS BACK ON THE TABLE. IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM EVERY OTHER PARTY, WHERE IT WOULD BE A MAJORITY VOTE. BUT IT WAS NEVER CLOSE TO THAT. THE PERCEPTION WAS THAT HE WAS ON THE ROPES. JAMES IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THE GREENS, BECAUSE HE DOES APPEAL TO THAT TEAL, BLUE/GREEN VOTE, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT. I THINK THE GREENS DO NEED TO GROW UP. I THINK HAVING A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE BE ABLE TO FORCE A LEADERSHIP VOTE IS QUITE IMMATURE. AND REMEMBER THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO LEAD A COUP AGAINST YOUR LEADER, HAVE A HORSE IN THE RACE. OR BE SUCCESSFUL. THAT'S TRUE, GREAT ADVICE. SIMON, I FOUND THAT DISCUSSION WITH DEAN KIMPTON ILLUMINATING. FOR THE FIRST TIME, I HEARD ABOUT THE CUTS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE AT A.T. THOSE CUTS ARE SIGNIFICANT, AREN'T THEY? THEY REALLY ARE. DEAN KIMPTON IS AN INTERESTING APPOINTMENT. HE HAS BEEN AROUND THE AUCKLAND COUNCIL ENVIRONMENT FOR A LONG TIME. HE'S HAD SENIOR ROLES BEFORE, AND ALSO IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AS A CONSULTANT, AND ALSO MAKING THINGS HAPPEN HIMSELF. HIS JOB IS THAT HE'S ONLY THERE FOR 18 MONTHS. IT IS A SHORT-TERM APPOINTMENT, WHICH BOTH HE AND AUCKLAND TRANSPORT SAID THEY WANTED. YOU COULD READ INTO IT THAT HE IS THERE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND IF HE CAN'T, HE WILL BE GONE SOON. BUT HE IS TRYING VERY HARD TO DO THAT. IN 18 MONTHS TIME, WILL HE WANT A RENEWAL? WE JUST DON'T KNOW. HE HAS COMMITTED TO RESTORING THE PUBLIC TRANSPORT NUMBERS TO PRE-COVID LEVEL THIS YEAR. HE'S ON TRACK TO DO THAT. THEY'VE GOT TO GET WELL BEYOND THAT THOUGH. AS HE SAID, THEY'VE GOT TO DOUBLE IT OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS. THE MASSIVE PROBLEM HE HAS IS THAT FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT, AND BUSES TO BECOME MORE EFFICIENT, THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FREELY THROUGH THE TRAFFIC, DOWN THE ARTERIAL ROADS. FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, THERE MUST BE LESS CAR PARKING ON THE SIDES OF THE ROADS WHEN THE BUSES ARE RUNNING. AND THAT IS THE POLITICAL ISSUE THAT GETS FOUGHT ON EVERY STREET AT EVERY INTERSECTION IN EVERY SUBURB, ALL THE TIME. YEAH. IT'S SUCH A GNARLY ONE. WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE PANEL THIS MORNING. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK. WITH THE PRIME MINISTER IN CHINA, IT WAS CARMEL SEPULONI'S TURN TO GO HEAD-TO-HEAD WITH LUXON IN THE CHAMBER. HERE'S FINN HOGAN WITH THE WEEK THAT WAS IN WELLINGTON. WELL, WITH THE OTHER CHRIS AWAY, LUXON WAS TRYING TO TRIP UP THE ACTING PM WITH SOME CURLY ECONOMY QUESTIONS. CAN SHE ACTUALLY NAME A COUNTRY OTHER THAN NEW ZEALAND WITH ALL OF A HIGH CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT, A LARGE FISCAL DEFICIT, HIGH INFLATION, HIGH INTEREST RATES AND A RECESSION? WHICH SHE WAS GAME FOR — I CAN NAME ONE COUNTRY — AUSTRALIA. I CAN NAME TWO COUNTRIES — AUSTRALIA AND CANADA. I CAN NAME THREE COUNTRIES — AUSTRALIA, CANADA, JAPAN. AND HAD A LESS THAN IMPRESSED FINANCE MINISTER AT HER BACK. WHAT IS THE CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT, AND WHY DOES IT MATTER SO MUCH TO THE CREDIT AGENCIES? OH, THANK YOU, FINANCE MINISTER. I'LL RECOGNISE HIM. HE SAID 8.5% OF GDP. THANK YOU. WELL, NOT THAT SHE NEEDED IT — SEPULONI WAS GIVING AS GOOD AS SHE GOT. WHAT'S EMBARRASSING, MR SPEAKER, IS WHEN SOMEONE SAYS THEY SUPPORTED THE CRUSADERS SINCE THEY WERE A CHILD, WHEN THEY WERE 26 YEARS OLD, WHEN THE CRUSADERS WERE ACTUALLY FORMED. AN IMPORTANT REMINDER FOR LUXON — IF YOU WANT TO ATTACK USING NUMBERS, IT PAYS TO CHECK YOUR OWN MATH. CAN NEW ZEALAND CONTINUE TO PRODUCE ENOUGH FOOD? WITH FARMERS AND GROWERS QUITTING IN THE FACE OF EXTREME WEATHER AND LACK OF INSURANCE, FORWARD-THINKING KIWIS ARE GROWING THEIR OWN, AND STOCKPILING THE EXCESS. GUEST REPORTER ALEXA COOK WITH THIS REPORT. (RAIN PATTERS) THE FRUIT BOWL OF NEW ZEALAND, NOW A MUD BATH. NEARLY FIVE MONTHS ON FROM CYCLONE GABRIELLE, AND THE FERTILE FOOD-PRODUCING LAND IS STILL A GRAVEYARD OF CROPS. IT'S A HEAVY HIT FOR THE COUNTRY. APPLE TREES ROT UNDER MORE THAN A METRE OF SILT. STRAWBERRY PLANTS LIE BENEATH THE MANGLED MESS OF GREENHOUSES THAT ONCE NURTURED SEEDS INTO FOOD. KIWIFRUIT CANOPIES ARE FLATTENED BY FLOODWATERS AND KNEE DEEP IN SLUDGE. AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S JUST BEEN BLIMMIN' SMASHED TO BITS. YOU'VE GOT BROKEN POSTS HERE, BROKEN NETTING, MASSES OF SILT THAT THEY'RE BUSY CLEARING AWAY. IT'S ESTIMATED ABOUT 40% OF HAWKE'S BAY'S CROPS ARE RUINED. BRYDON NISBET LEADS THE HAWKE'S BAY FRUIT GROWERS ASSOCIATION. HIS OWN APPLE ORCHARD WAS OBLITERATED BY THE CYCLONE. SO WHERE WE'RE STANDING, WHAT USED TO BE HERE? YEAH, THIS USED TO BE TREES. YEP. BEAUTIFUL ORCHARD. WE WERE 10 DAYS AWAY FROM HARVEST, READY TO GO. A SENSE OF UNCERTAINTY HANGS HEAVY. WE'RE HEARING GROWERS THAT HAVE HAD ENOUGH. THEY WANT OUT. SO THE ESK VALLEY, A LOT OF ORCHARDS AND VINEYARDS WIPED OUT THERE, AND A LOT OF THAT WON'T BE GROWN ON AGAIN. AND THAT COULD HAVE QUITE AN IMPACT ON OUR FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN. YEAH, THAT'S HUNDREDS OF HECTARES OF VINEYARDS AND APPLE TREES AND STONE FRUIT AND PLUMS THAT ARE NEVER GOING TO BE GROWN AGAIN. LAND THAT'S BEEN FARMED FOR GENERATIONS — GONE. THEY'VE GOT NO ORCHARD ANYMORE. AND SO THAT'S BROKEN DREAMS, A LEGACY FOR THE CHILDREN. AND SO THAT'S A HUGE AREA OF WELLBEING THAT WE'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT WITH THEM. GROWERS CAN CLAIM UP TO $250,000 IN CYCLONE RELIEF FUNDS, BUT THAT DOESN'T GO FAR WHEN YOU HAVE NO INSURANCE. YOU CAN'T INSURE FOR FLOODS, YOU CAN'T INSURE YOUR TREES. IT'S RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VULNERABILITY OF NEW ZEALAND'S FOOD SUPPLY. WE NEED TO DO THINGS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY. MATT MORRIS IS PASSIONATE ABOUT FOOD SECURITY AND SUSTAINABILITY. HE HELPED ORGANISE A COMMUNITY FEAST FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY. IT'S WHERE COMMUNITY GROUPS TACKLING FOOD SECURITY ISSUES CAN COME TOGETHER WITH RESEARCHERS, POLITICIANS AND LOCALS, SHARING KAI, IDEAS AND RESOURCES. WE NEED ONE MORE CHICKEN. WHY IS SO MUCH FOOD BEING WASTED WHEN PEOPLE ARE GOING HUNGRY? YOU KNOW, WHY DO WE WRECK THE PLANET WHEN WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ECOLOGICAL CRISIS? AN ISSUE GEORGE STANLEY TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY. SHE RUNS THE SMITH STREET COMMUNITY FARM IN CHRISTCHURCH. I WENT TO UNI WITH THREE KIDS, AND HAD TO CUT THE CLOTH, AND I GREW ALL OUR FOOD IN THE BACKYARD. AND NOW SHE'S HELPING OTHERS DO THE SAME. THIS WAS THE LAST PLOT TO BE TAKEN UP, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE PLANTING CHILLIES. THE 2-ACRE URBAN FARM CAN FEED 120 FAMILIES A WEEK. THERE'S A WAITLIST FOR THE GARDEN'S $25 PRODUCE BOXES, AND SINCE THE PANDEMIC, SHE'S SEEN A SURGE IN INTEREST FROM PEOPLE WANTING THEIR OWN PLOT OF LAND TO GROW THEIR OWN FOOD. HOW POPULAR IS IT? SO WE'VE JUST FILLED UP OUR LAST PLOT LAST WEEK. THREE YEARS AGO WE HAD SEVEN PLOT HOLDERS, AND NOW WE HAVE 28. DO YOU FIND THAT PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR FOOD, ABOUT WHERE IT'S GOING TO COME FROM AND HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST? YEAH. (LAUGHS) YEAH. SO THE WORRY'S DEEP. IT'S JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY COMES IN IS CONCERNED. YEAH. FIGURES FROM THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH SHOW JUST THAT. 12.5 TO 14% OF OUR POPULATION IS FOOD INSECURE. SO THAT MEANS THEY DON'T — PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO FOOD REGULARLY. IT'S LED TO MORE PEOPLE STOCKPILING FOOD, PREPARING FOR SHORTAGES AS FOOD PRICES SOAR. PEOPLE ARE DEFINITELY FREEZING THEIR EXCESS IN SUMMER, THEY'RE NOT WASTING ANYTHING. THEY'RE BOTTLING ALL THE PEACHES, THEY'RE MAKING APPLESAUCE. THERE'S — ANYTHING THAT THEY CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON. JARS ARE A HOT COMMODITY TRADE ITEM. PEOPLE LIKE ROWAN, WHO'S PLANTING GARLIC IN HIS PLOT. I LIKE GROWING VEGETABLES. HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL, KNOWING THAT YOU'VE GOT FOOD THAT YOU CAN GROW YOURSELF, AND YOU CAN STORE FOOD? YEAH, IT'S PRETTY SATISFYING. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT TASTES BETTER, BUT CERTAINLY THERE'S A FAIR BIT OF SWEAT AND HOPES GO INTO GROWING IT. IN THE 1980S, NEW ZEALAND HAD 26,000 OF THESE MARKET GARDENS. TODAY, THOUGH, THERE ARE JUST 900, WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE WANT TO SEE MORE OF THEM AGAIN, BECAUSE IT GIVES LOCAL COMMUNITIES BETTER FOOD SECURITY. MANAGING LAND FOR FOOD RESILIENCE IN A PARKS-LIKE SETTING IS THE WAY WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GO IN THE FUTURE. SUPPLY CHAINS ARE DISRUPTED CONSTANTLY, AND IF WE CAN PRODUCE FOOD IN THE CITY, THEN WE ACTUALLY HAVE SOME SECURITY ABOUT WHERE WE GET OUR FOOD FROM. AND MATT AGREES. I WORRY ABOUT PEOPLE TODAY WHO ARE GOING HUNGRY OUTSIDE THERE, YOU KNOW? THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS ME. HE SAYS THE FOOD SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE OVERHAULED AND RECREATED. WE NEED POLITICAL LEADERSHIP ON THIS, BECAUSE RE-LOCALISING AND BRINGING THINGS BACK IN, IT'S AN ECONOMIC RESTRUCTURING, POTENTIALLY. SO IT DOES NEED POLITICAL LEADERSHIP. TO HELP BRING THE FOCUS BACK TO SELF-SUFFICIENT COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL FOOD PRODUCTION. FIRSTLY, LET'S STOP BUILDING ON OUR MOST PRODUCTIVE SOILS AND LET'S PRESERVE THEM FOR FOOD PRODUCTION, BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA NEED THEM. SOME OF THOSE SOILS ARE A LONG, LONG WAY OFF GROWING FOOD AGAIN. WITH LARGE AREAS OF FRUIT TREES BEING PILED ON TO BONFIRES, AND A LOT OF THE FRUIT ALSO BURIED IN THE SILT, GROWERS ARE NOW FACING QUESTIONS ABOUT IF THEY DO REPLANT, WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THE TREES FROM? IT COULD BE TWO, THREE, FOUR YEARS BEFORE SOMEONE EVEN GETS TREES THAT THEY'VE ORDERED THIS YEAR. HE SAYS QUICKER GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE WOULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE. I THINK IF THERE WERE SOME GOVERNMENT GUARANTEES ON FUTURE WEATHER EVENTS THAT, HEY, YOU KNOW, IF WE GET ANOTHER CYCLONE AND THERE'S THIS KIND OF DEVASTATION, THAT THE GOVERNMENT ARE GOING TO COME UP WITH AN IDEA OR A PLAN TO HELP MITIGATE THAT RISK WITH GROWERS, THAT WOULD BE — IT WOULD BE GOOD. BECAUSE THOSE RISKS ARE INCREASING IN INTENSITY AND FREQUENCY. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 HE MEA TONA KITE HOTAKA NEI NA TE PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM FUND.