TENA TATOU KATOA. I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU ` WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` AN EXTENDED INTERVIEW WITH CHILDREN'S MINISTER KELVIN DAVIS IN AN EXPLOSIVE WEEK FOR ORANGA TAMARIKI. CEO ANDREW McKENZIE HITS BACK ON CLAIMS KAINGA ORA IS SLUGGISH, EXPENSIVE, AND ITS HOMES UNSIGHTLY. AND ARE POLICE APPLYING THEIR DISCRETIONARY POWERS EQUALLY? A SPECIAL REPORT FROM LAURA WALTERS. FIRST UP TODAY ` A BOMBSHELL FOR ALL OF US THIS WEEK, WITH FIGHT FOOTAGE EMERGING FROM AN ORANGA TAMARIKI YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCE, REVEALED BY OUR REPORTER NICK TRUEBRIDGE. TWO, ONE. GO. (BOYS PUFF) OHHH! THAT WAS (BLEEP). GET UP. OHH. (BLEEP). NO, NO, NO, WAIT! GET UP. GET UP, BRO. LET HIM GET UP. GET UP. GET UP, GET UP. (BLEEP). (BOYS CHATTER INDISTINCTLY) OH, NO, NO, NO. HE'S DONE. HE'S DONE. I SPOKE WITH THE CHILDREN'S MINISTER, KELVIN DAVIS, EARLIER AND ASKED HIM WHAT HE THOUGHT WHEN HE SAW THAT FOOTAGE. IT MUST BE OUTRAGING TO YOU. UH, IT IS. LIKE... SO, WHEN I SAW THE VIDEOS, IN PARTICULAR, YOU KNOW, A RANGE OF EMOTIONS GO THROUGH YOUR HEAD ` FIRST OF ALL, YOU'RE SHOCKED, AND THEN YOU'RE ANGRY, AND THEN YOU'RE SAD. BUT I GUESS THE EMOTION THAT MOST COMES THROUGH NOW IS THE DETERMINATION TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO MAKE CHANGE ` AND MAKE SURE THAT IT'S LASTING CHANGE. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE RANGE OF EMOTIONS ARE FOR THAT KID IN THAT VIDEO? OH, LOOK, YOU KNOW, I HATE TO THINK ABOUT IT. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT IS... A TERRIBLE VIDEO. UM, IT'S UNACCEPTABLE. IT'S VERY DISTURBING. IF I WAS THE CHILD, IF I WAS THE WHANAU SEEING THAT, YOU KNOW, I'D BE REALLY, REALLY UPSET, I'D BE ANGRY; AND QUITE RIGHTLY SO, THEY WOULD WANT ANSWERS FROM ORANGA TAMARIKI ` AND THEY WOULD WANT ANSWERS FROM ME, AS THE MINISTER, AS WELL. THAT'S WHY I SAY THAT I'M DETERMINED TO DRIVE THESE CHANGES THROUGH. BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD 13, UH, ORANGA TAMARIKI WORKERS STOOD DOWN IN THE PAST WEEK, RELATED TO THESE EVENTS. WHAT FOR? THE INITIAL TWO STAFF MEMBERS WERE STOOD DOWN BECAUSE THERE WAS INAPPROPRIATE SEXUALISED BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS YOUNG PEOPLE; THEN THERE WERE THE ISSUES AROUND FILMING OF THE FIGHTS, AND ANY STAFF WHO WERE INVOLVED THERE HAVE BEEN STOOD DOWN, AND THERE ARE INVESTIGATIONS HAPPENING; AND THERE'S BEEN ANOTHER INCIDENT WHERE A YOUNG PERSON WAS HURT, AND THAT'S` THERE'S A POLICE INVESTIGATION GOING ON INTO THAT. SO I CAN'T REALLY GO INTO ANY DETAILS AROUND THAT. SO WHAT WE'VE DONE WHEN WE SAID THAT WE'RE GONNA HAVE THIS INVESTIGATION WAS WE WANTED TO FLUSH OUT ALL THE WRONG BEHAVIOUR THAT IS GOING ON, AND SO WE EXPECTED THAT THERE WOULD BE OTHER THINGS TO COME OUT. WE ALSO KNEW THAT WE WOULD COP A LOT OF POLITICAL FLAK FROM IT, BUT IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BECAUSE THE WELL-BEING OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE IS, UM` IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY. YOU KNOW, MY FATHER ALWAYS SAID, 'DOING WHAT'S RIGHT ISN'T ALWAYS EASY, BUT IT'S ALWAYS RIGHT.' AND IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO, DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE KNEW BY FLUSHING THINGS OUT, MORE STUFF WOULD COME OUT. WELL, THIS IS ACTUALLY JUST ANOTHER REVIEW. IN 2021, YOU SAID, 'THERE HAVE BEEN FOUR REVIEWS 'IN THE LAST LITTLE WHILE. 79 RECOMMENDATIONS. 'THE TIME FOR REVIEWS AND SITTING AROUND HAVING CHATS IS OVER; 'IT'S TIME FOR ACTION.' AND YET HERE WE ARE AGAIN. WELL, THIS` UH, BY GETTING MIKE BUSH TO DO THIS ` HE'S ACTUALLY GOING IN AND SEEKING OUT THE PROBLEMS AND GOING TO FIX THEM. THAT'S THE THING. MINISTER, YOU HAVE ALREADY REVIEWED THESE RESIDENCES IN 2021, AND YOU FOUND SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE AT PLAY HERE. YOU HAVE FOUND 'SIGNIFICANT AND PERSISTENT GAPS IN THE PROVISION 'OF CONSISTENT AND CHILD-SPECIFIC CARE, 'INADEQUATE SUPPORT FROM OT'; THE PROBLEMS ARE AMPLIFIED, ACCORDING TO THE REPORT IN 2021, ON THESE FACILITIES BY 'AN ABSENCE OF THE NECESSARY RECRUITMENT, 'INDUCTION AND TRAINING REQUIRED TO MEET THE ACUTE AND COMPLEX NEEDS 'OF CHILDREN IN THE RESIDENCES'. THIS WORK HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE. YEAH, AND NOW MIKE BUSH IS DRIVING THE CHANGE, AND TUSHA PENNY THE CHANGE, AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS` NO, THEY'RE DOING A RAPID REVIEW, MINISTER, YOU'VE JUST TOLD ME THAT THIS IS A REVIEW THAT'S GONNA MAKE SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, BUT WE'VE ALREADY DONE THESE REVIEWS. YEAH, SO... THINGS ARE CHANGING AT THE SAME TIME ` LIKE, THEY'RE NOT WAITING ENTIRELY FOR A REPORT TO COME OUT AND THEN SAYING, 'WELL, LET'S FIX IT.' THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE BEING FIXED IMMEDIATELY. LOOK, I` YOU KNOW, I TAKE YOUR POINT. THESE ORGANISATIONS` ORANGA TAMARIKI HAS BEEN REVIEWED A NUMBER OF TIMES. BUT CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE, AND ORANGA TAMARIKI` BUT THEY'RE NOT WORKING. THE REVIEWS AREN'T WORKING. WE CAN'T REVIEW OUR WAY OUT OF THIS PROBLEM, CAN WE? WELL, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WORKSTREAMS IN ORANGA TAMARIKI, AND THEY HAVE MADE CHANGES. SO, IN PARTICULAR, PEOPLE REMEMBER THE 2019 UPLIFT` AND YET HERE WE ARE WITH TWO CASES OF POTENTIAL SEXUAL ABUSE, FIGHTING BEING FILMED IN A YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCE JUST IN THIS WEEK. YEAH, AND LIKE I SAY, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PARTS OF WORK TO ORANGA TA` YOU KNOW, TO WHAT ORANGA TAMARIKI DOES. YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCE IS ONE PART OF THEM. SO WE'VE BEEN FIXING UP A NUMBER OF OTHER PARTS, OTHER AREAS WHERE ORANGA TAMARIKI HAS BEEN CRITICISED. SO THERE ARE PARTS THAT ARE WORKING REALLY WELL, AND CHANGES ARE BEING MADE; WHAT WE SEE NOW IS THAT THE YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCE ` THE FOCUS AND THE` I GUESS THE LASER BEAM IS ON THEM RIGHT NOW. BUT THE LASER BEAM HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE MINISTER. WHO IS RECRUITING AND VETTING THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE FILMING KIDS FIGHTING? YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. AND SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE REVIEW IS GOING TO LOOK AT ` UM, THE REVIEW IN THE VETTING. SO... NOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE APPLIED, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT GOT THE JOBS BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HAD THE RIGHT PERSONALITY TRAITS, SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I REALLY WANT TO LOOK AT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT THE RIGHT PERSON EMPLOYED THERE, DOING THE RIGHT THING. BUT THIS IS AT THE CORE, MINISTER, OF THESE FACILITIES AND THESE CENTRES ` IS THE PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE EMPLOYING TO MANAGE THESE KIDS, WHO HAVE ACUTE NEEDS AND WHO HAVE BEEN PROFOUNDLY LET DOWN ALREADY. AND YOU'RE TELLING ME YOU'RE NOT SURE ABOUT THE VETTING PROCESS? SO, THE VETTING PROCESS ` THAT'S OPERATIONAL. SO THE EMPLOYMENT OF STAFF IS SOMETHING THAT ORANGA TAMARIKI HAS TO DO. WELL, THEY'RE FAILING AT IT, AREN'T THEY? THAT'S RIGHT. THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING THROUGH. AND THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING THAT I WANT TO KNOW, LIKE, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING THROUGH THAT SHOULDN'T. BUT THIS PROBLEM WAS FOUND BACK IN 2021 AS WELL. THERE WERE WORKFORCE ISSUES IDENTIFIED BY WIRA GARDINER BACK THEN THEN THAT GO TO EXACTLY THIS POINT ` WE'RE EMPLOYING THE WRONG PEOPLE. AND TWO YEARS LATER, YOU'RE SITTING HERE AND TELLING ME THAT YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT. NO. AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING ` THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AND ORANGA TAMARIKI HASN'T MADE THE CHANGES, AND THAT'S NOW REALLY WHAT WE'RE PUSHING ` I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS BEING DONE AND... AND HOW ARE WE MAKING SURE THAT WE EMPLOY THE BEST PEOPLE FOR THE JOB? WELL, IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOU ARE, BECAUSE WE'VE HAD POTENTIAL SEXUAL ABUSERS AND VIOLENT ABUSERS IN THESE PLACES. AND LIKE I SAY` AND THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE. HOW MANY STAFF AT THESE PLACES HAVE QUALIFICATIONS TO DEAL WITH THE EXTREMELY COMPLEX NEEDS OF THESE KIDS? YEAH, SO, UM, MANY OF THEM ARE YOUTH WORKERS, AND, UM, THEY` WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? YEAH, WELL, THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. I MEAN, LIKE, MANY OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE TRAUMA, THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND ALL THOSE SORTS OF THINGS THAT HAVE LED TO THEM COMMITTING CRIMES, AND THE YOUTH JUSTICE FACILITIES AREN'T MENTAL HEALTH FACILITIES, WHICH IS A REAL CONCERN. YOU KNOW, SO THE WORKFORCE` THE` AND IT'S THE SAME IN PRISONS AS WELL ` THERE ISN'T THE MENTAL HEALTH WORKFORCE THERE TO REALLY SUPPORT THEM WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS. BUT I'M ASKING YOU ` WHAT ARE YOUTH WORKERS? THEY'RE NOT QUALIFIED, ARE THEY? WELL, THEY'RE` I MEAN, THEY'VE OBVIOUSLY HAD SOME TRAINING WHEN THEY COME INTO ORANGA TAMARIKI. THEY HAVE` TWO WEEKS' TRAINING? YEAH, IT'S` IT HASN'T BEEN GOOD. IT'S NOW GONE UP TO SIX WEEKS. BUT EVEN THEN, YOU KNOW, IF I COMPARE IT TO CORRECTIONS WORKFORCE ` THEY HAVE ABOUT THREE MONTHS' TRAINING, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN IMPROVEMENT AND AN INCREASE IN TRAINING. THERE IS ONGOING PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT, BUT I THINK THAT THAT NEEDS TO BE STRENGTHENED AS WELL. SO, LOOK, I'M NOT HIDING THE FACT THAT THAT THINGS CAN BE BETTER. THEY HAVE TO BE BETTER. WELL, THINGS ARE BAD, MINISTER. I-I AGREE, UH, THAT THERE ARE GAPS IN THE SYSTEM THAT NEED TO BE PLUGGED. BUT THESE GAPS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I'M JUST LOOKING AT THE 2021 REPORT, AND THAT THAT REPORT IDENTIFIED WORKFORCE ISSUES. IT SAID` UH, THAT LESS THAN 6% OF THE WORKFORCE, ACCORDING TO THIS REPORT, ARE REGISTERED SOCIAL WORKERS. LESS THAN 6%. BUT IT IS DIFFICULT TO RECRUIT AND TO` AND THE TRAINING OF THESE PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, THERE AREN'T PEOPLE REALLY PUTTING UP THEIR HANDS TO COME AND WORK IN THESE FACILITIES. IT IS A DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT, WORKING WITH SOME OF OUR MOST TROUBLED PEOPLE. THAT'S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE THERE. BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO RECRUIT (CLEARS THROAT) STAFF. THESE GAPS IN THE SYSTEM AND THESE DEFICIENCIES IN THE WORKFORCE IS WHERE THE BEHAVIOUR THAT WE HAVE SEEN THIS WEEK ` AND THE POTENTIAL SEXUAL ABUSE ` THAT IS WHERE THAT BEHAVIOUR IS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN, ISN'T IT? THE CONDITIONS INSIDE THESE FACILITIES ARE SUCH THAT THAT BEHAVIOUR IS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN ` BECAUSE OF THE GAPS IN THE SYSTEM. YEAH, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING ` THERE HAVE BEEN GAPS IN THE SYSTEM. I'M FRUSTRATED` THEY'VE BEEN THERE A LONG TIME. YEAH, AND I'M FRUSTRATED THAT IT IS TAKING TIME TO FILL THOSE GAPS. BUT LIKE I SAY, WITH MIKE BUSH, WITH THE EMPLOYMENT OF OTHER STAFF, THINGS ARE STARTING TO PICK UP THE PACE. IN THE PAST SIX WEEKS OR SO? YEAH, IN THE PAST LITTLE WHILE, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN HAPPY WITH THE PACE OF CHANGE, SO MORE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN. TUSHA PENNY, WHO YOU MENTIONED, SAID THIS WEEK THAT, 'THERE ARE ISSUES THROUGHOUT THE RESIDENCES HERE IN NEW ZEALAND; 'TO THE DEPTH OF THEM, WE ARE NOT SURE AT THIS STAGE.' WHY NOT? YEAH, WELL, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING, IS WE'RE TRYING TO FLUSH OUT THE ISSUES, WE'RE TRYING TO FLUSH OUT THE PROBLEMS. BUT THAT'S HER JOB. SHE'S BEEN IN THE JOB LONGER THAN THIS REVIEW. SHE'S BEEN IN THE JOB ABOUT SIX, SEVEN WEEKS, AND SHE'S COME IN AND SHE IS REALLY, UM, PUSHING FOR US TO FIND OUT WHAT IS HAPPENING. SHE IS, YOU KNOW, DRIVING SOME SIGNIFICANT CHANGE. AND SHE WAS BROUGHT IN BECAUSE WE WERE CONCERNED AT THE SLOW PACE OF CHANGE. WELL, SHE IS ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF POLICE; SHE IS SECONDED OVER TO ORANGA TAMARIKI. DOES SHE HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OR QUALIFICATIONS IN THIS AREA? POLICE SEEMS TO ME TO BE RATHER A DIFFERENT STREAM OF WORK. SHE HAS INCREDIBLE SKILLS IN CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT AND DRIVING THROUGH CHANGE. SHE'S LED A NUMBER OF AREAS OF CHANGE WITHIN THE POLICE, AND SHE` ONE OF THEM WAS THE, UH, TACTICAL RESPONSE MODEL... YEAH, AND SO` ...WHICH IS TRAINING POLICE AND SPECIALIST ARMED TEAMS? YEAH. SO, UM, THE CHANGE MANAGEMENT PROCESS ` THE ABILITY TO LEAD A LOT OF PEOPLE INTO DRIVING SIGNIFICANT CHANGE ` SHE HAS SKILLS IN. AND SHE'S JUST TRANSFERRING THOSE SKILLS INTO DRIVING CHANGE IN ORANGA TAMARIKI. BUT IS A POLICE SORT OF PHILOSOPHY THE RIGHT ONE FOR ORANGA TAMARIKI? TUSHA'S PHILOSOPHY OF DOING RIGHT BY CHILDREN IS THE RIGHT PHILOSOPHY. SHE IS REALLY DRIVING CHANGE, AND IT'S AS MUCH THE ATTITUDE AND THE WILLPOWER TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE THAT IS AS IMPORTANT. BUT THE SKILLS THAT SHE'S LEARNT IN PROJECT MANAGEMENT IN THE POLICE ARE TRANSFERABLE TO THIS CONTEXT AS WELL. WELL, IT'S JUST THERE SEEMS TO BE A STRONG POLICE FOCUS HERE. WE'VE GOT MIKE BUSH, FORMER POLICE COMMISSIONER; WE'VE GOT TUSHA PENNY, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER; AND THERE'S ANOTHER HIGH-LEVEL POLICE SECONDEE AS WELL. SO THAT IS A REAL SORT OF PUSH, I SUPPOSE, OF THAT POLICE PHILOSOPHY INTO ORANGA TAMARIKI, AND I'M JUST WONDERING WHY AND HOW THAT SITS. WELL, WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE THREE PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED IS THEIR NO-NONSENSE APPROACH. THEY'VE GOT A NO-NONSENSE APPROACH ` 'HERE'S THE PROBLEM; HERE'S THE ISSUE.' THEY'VE DEFINED IT, THEY UNDERSTAND IT, AND THEY'RE DRIVING THROUGH CHANGE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WANT. BUT CAN THESE YOUNG PEOPLE` I SUPPOSE, WILL THEY HAVE TRUST IN A POLICE APPROACH IN THESE FACILITIES? WELL, LOOK, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I THINK THAT POLICE ALSO` WHEN THEY GO ABOUT THEIR DAILY WORK, THEY WANT THE BEST FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. I KNOW THAT TUSHA HAS SAID TO ME THAT, YOU KNOW, DRIVING THROUGH CHANGE TO MAKE THE LIVES OF THESE YOUNG PEOPLE BETTER IS WHAT MOTIVATES HER. YOU KNOW, SHE HAS PHENOMENAL SKILLS. MIKE BUSH HAS HUGE SKILLS AS WELL. AND LIKE I SAY, THEIR NO-NONSENSE APPROACH ` DEFINING THE PROBLEM, DEFINING THE SOLUTIONS TO GET TO THE END RESULT ` THAT'S A VERY VALUABLE SKILL, AND IT IS TRANSFERABLE FROM WHATEVER CONTEXT THEY WERE IN BEFORE TO THIS CONTEXT NOW. WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE PUBLIC HAS LOST CONFIDENCE IN ORANGA TAMARIKI? LOOK, I WOULD SAY THAT, UM, BECAUSE` ORANGA TAMARIKI, BEFORE I WAS THE MINISTER, WAS IN THE NEWS, LIKE, WEEKLY; THEN THERE WAS QUITE A LONG PERIOD WHERE WE'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK, WE HAVE MADE A LOT OF CHANGE IN A NUMBER OF AREAS, AND... IN FACT, IT WAS ONLY ABOUT SIX WEEKS AGO SOMEONE SAID TO ME, 'OH, WE HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH ABOUT ORANGA TAMARIKI IN THE NEWS.' WELL, YOU KNOW` LITTLE DID THEY KNOW. (CHUCKLES) THEN IT CHANGED. SO THAT DIDN'T MEAN THAT THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON; IT JUST MEANS THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT. YEAH, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING, IS THAT I'M SURE THAT` PRIOR TO ME THAT THINGS WERE SORT OF RESOLVED IN A QUIET WAY BECAUSE` COVERED UP. BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT THE PUBLICITY, THE CRITICISM. AND WE'RE SAYING` AND I'M SAYING, AS THE MINISTER, 'NO, WE ARE MAKING IT KNOWN THAT THERE ARE ISSUES 'AND THAT WE WANT TO FLUSH OUT MORE ISSUES, 'BECAUSE WHAT WOULD BE WORSE IS IF THEY CONTINUE TO HAPPEN IN SECRET.' AND SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS LET'S PUT IT ALL OUT THERE. AND WE KNEW THAT WE WERE INVITING A HEAP OF CRITICISM WHEN WE OPENED THIS CAN OF WORMS, BUT IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. BUT YOU CAN'T CLAIM CREDIT FOR FLUSHING THINGS OUT WHEN THE CONDITIONS WITHIN THESE ENVIRONMENTS HAVE ALLOWED THAT BEHAVIOUR TO FLOURISH OVER MANY YEARS. YEAH. THAT IS A FAILING, MINISTER. AND OVER MANY YEARS, AND I'M SURE THAT THESE ISSUES DID PREDATE MY TIME AS MINISTER. BUT WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS, LIKE, WE WANT THIS TO BE AIRED. WE WANT PEOPLE TO COME OUT AND TELL US WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE ` THAT IT HAS BEEN` OT HAS BEEN SLOW TO RESPOND AND TO NEGATE THE PROBLEMS AND TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEMS. BUT NOW WE'RE SAYING, 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.' IN FACT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT` WE'VE SAID 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH' BEFORE, MANY TIMES. WELL, ONE OF` YOU'VE SAID 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH' BEFORE MANY TIMES, AND YET NOTHING HAPPENS. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STAFF WHO HAVE SAID, 'WE THINK NOW THINGS WILL CHANGE.' THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST DIDN'T BELIEVE IT, THAT THEY WEREN'T COMING OUT WITH STUFF. BUT NOW THEY'RE SAYING WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF CHAPPIE TE KANI, THAT THEY THINK THINGS WILL CHANGE. WELL, THE PUBLIC` IT FEELS TO ME LIKE THE PUBLIC HAS LOST CONFIDENCE IN ORANGA TAMARIKI OVER MANY YEARS, AND IT FEELS LIKE THEY MIGHT BE ON THE EDGE OF LOSING CONFIDENCE IN YOU, TOO, MINISTER. WELL, LIKE I SAY, I HAVE A DETERMINATION TO MAKE SURE THESE THINGS` I'VE BEEN IN THE JOB TWO AND A HALF YEARS. I HAVE A DETERMINATION TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT. YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN PROBLEMS IN THE YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCES. THERE HAVE BEEN PROBLEMS IN OTHER PARTS OF ORANGA TAMARIKI THAT WE ARE GETTING RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, IT IS A BIG SHIP TO TURN AROUND. IT'S A VERY COMPLEX ORGANISATION. THERE'S A LOT OF MOVING PARTS, BUT THERE ARE CHANGES THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN MANY OF THOSE THINGS. NOW WE REALLY HAVE TO SHINE THE LASER BEAM ON THE YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCES. BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE PROFOUND VIOLATION, IS THERE, BY THE STATE, THAN FAILING THOSE WHO IT TAKES INTO THESE FACILITIES, WHETHER IT BE SEXUAL ABUSE OR VIOLENCE. IT'S JUST TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THESE YOUNG PEOPLE. BUT THERE ALSO NEEDS TO BE THE OUTRAGE ABOUT WHY IT IS THAT THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE TRAUMA, THE ABUSE THEY'VE SUFFERED IN THEIR LIVES BEFORE COMING HERE. THE TROUBLE IS, WE DON'T WANT THEIR TIME IN THE YOUTH JUSTICE RESIDENCES TO ADD TO THAT TRAUMA AND THAT ABUSE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF OUTRAGE AT THE MOMENT. BUT WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE OUT THERE IN THE COMMUNITY HELPING THE FAMILIES THAT THEY KNOW ARE IN TROUBLE NOW? IF THEY COULD TURN SOME OF THEIR OUTRAGE AND THEIR CRITICISM ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE YOUTH JUSTICE FACILITIES IN TO HELPING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN THE COMMUNITY AROUND THEM, MAYBE WE CAN STOP` YOU KNOW, ALTOGETHER CAN STOP THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE GOING TO THE YOUTH JUSTICE FACILITIES IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE JUST DON'T THINK THAT YOUTH JUSTICE FACILITIES ARE GOING TO BE THE ANSWER. THE ANSWER IS ACTUALLY IN THE COMMUNITIES, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICISING NOW WHO LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, WHO ARE DOING NOTHING IN THE COMMUNITIES TO HELP THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE. BUT WHEN THOSE PEOPLE DO` WHEN THOSE KIDS DO END UP IN THOSE FACILITIES, WE CAN'T FAIL THEM AGAIN. NO, YOU'RE RIGHT. I AGREE. AN INCREDIBLY COMPLEX ISSUE TO SELF. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL, ELLA HENRY, NICK TRUEBRIDGE AND DILEEPA FONSEKA. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. WELL, THERE WAS ANOTHER STORY BUBBLING ALONG IN THE BACKGROUND THIS WEEK ` THE FUTURE OF ONE OF LABOUR'S BRIGHTEST STARS, KIRI ALLAN. THE PRIME MINISTER CHOSE TO DEAL WITH ALLEGATIONS OF BAD BEHAVIOUR BY THE MINISTER AFTER HE'S BACK FROM NATO, ESSENTIALLY LEAVING A CLOUD HANGING OVER HER FOR ANOTHER TWO WEEKS. HERE HE IS AT POST-CAB ON MONDAY. I'VE INDICATED TO KIRI THAT WE'LL HAVE A CATCH UP WHEN I GET BACK FROM EUROPE, WHICH WILL BE IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS' TIME. I'VE SUGGESTED TO HER THAT SHE'D TAKE A COUPLE OF WEEKS OFF, AND SHE'S GOING TO BE DOING THAT. PRIME MINISTER, WHY HAVE YOU SUGGESTED THAT KIRI ALLAN TAKE A COUPLE OF WEEKS OFF? KIRI HAD A ROUGH COUPLE OF WEEKS, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR HER TO TAKE SOME TIME OFF. SHE'S INDICATED THAT SHE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE SOME TIME OFF. IT'S SCHOOL HOLIDAYS. A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL TAKE A BIT OF A BREAK DURING THIS TIME. AND I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING. IS KIRI ALLAN GUILTY OF BAD BEHAVIOUR, OR IS SHE STILL SUSPECTED OF BULLYING, OR HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED THOSE ALLEGATIONS, AND YOU'RE SATISFIED THAT SHE IS FIT TO BE A MINISTER FROM HERE ON IN? AS I'VE INDICATED SINCE I GOT BACK FROM CHINA OVER THE WEEKEND, I HAVEN'T HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE A CHAT WITH HER. I WILL DO SO, AND THEN I WILL COMMENT ON THOSE MATTERS. BUT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE CULTURE AROUND THIS PLACE HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THE FRANCIS REPORT, FOR EXAMPLE. AND YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT A FORMAL COMPLAINT, BUT ACTUALLY YOU WILL KNOW, AS I KNOW, THAT MOST PEOPLE IN THIS PLACE AREN'T COMFORTABLE MAKING A FORMAL COMPLAINT. SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS THESE INFORMAL COMPLAINTS. THAT'S PROBABLY ABOUT AS STRONG AS YOU'RE GOING TO GET FROM SOMEBODY IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR, ISN'T IT? SO THERE IS ALSO A BASIC CONCEPT CALLED NATURAL JUSTICE, WHICH IS WHEN SOMEONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS OF ANYTHING OF THIS NATURE LEVELLED AGAINST THEM, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO THOSE. AND SHE'S NOT YET` I'VE NOT YET HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN AND TALK TO HER ABOUT THAT. AND CLEARLY I'M NOT GOING TO GET THAT OVER THE NEXT WEEK, AND THEN I'M AWAY NEXT WEEK. SO WE WILL HAVE A CONVERSATION WHEN I RETURN. SO THIS IS STILL WIDE OPEN? I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY SAY THAT. I'M SAYING THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION, SO THEREFORE MAKING JUDGEMENTS IS PREMATURE. PRIME MINISTER, I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE DEBBIE FRANCES REVIEW. IT'S A BIG CULTURE CHANGE, RIGHT? YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT TO BE SORT OF TOTALLY TURNED AROUND IN THE FOUR YEARS SINCE. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS STILL BULLYING AND BAD BEHAVIOUR THAT HAPPENS HERE AT PARLIAMENT? THERE'S BULLYING` THERE'S BAD BEHAVIOUR IN ALMOST EVERY WORKPLACE. AND IT REQUIRES ONGOING VIGILANCE TO CREATE A WORK CULTURE WHERE IT'S NOT TOLERATED AND IT'S NOT ACCEPTED. IS SHOUTING BAD BEHAVIOUR? DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT AND ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES. SETTING CLEAR EXPECTATIONS IS PERFECTLY OK, EXPRESSING DISSATISFACTION WHEN THOSE EXPECTATIONS AREN'T MET IS ALSO PERFECTLY OK. BEING ROBUST IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS IS ALSO OK. IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISAGREEMENTS THAT HAPPEN IN THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATING CHAMBER, SOME OF THEM ARE VERY ROBUST. THAT IS THE NATURE OF A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, AND I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD CHANGE THAT. BUT YOU CAN STILL TREAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT WHILST DISAGREEING WITH THEM ROBUSTLY. AND IS SHOUTING TREATING PEOPLE WITH RESPECT? AS I'VE INDICATED, IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT. IF YOU'RE PARTICIPATING IN A PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE, PEOPLE SHOUT DURING THOSE THINGS ALL OF THE TIME. SHOUTING AT SOMEONE IN A ONE-ON-ONE CONTEXT IS NOT OK. WELL, I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` AUT BUSINESS PROFESSOR ELLA HENRY, NEWSHUB SENIOR REPORTER NICK TRUEBRIDGE AND SENIOR CORRESPONDENT FOR BUSINESS DESK DILEEPA FONSEKA. TENA KOUTOU. ELLA, KIRI ALLEN IS IN AN IMPOSSIBLE POSITION NOW, IN THIS TWO-WEEK LIMBO, SHOULDN'T THE PM HAVE DEALT WITH THIS BY NOW? CONFUSED WHAT THE ACTUAL CASE IS AGAINST HER. THIS SEEMS TO BE A SLEW OF ALLEGATIONS, NONE OF WHICH IS FORMAL. I HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE WOMEN IN PARLIAMENT WHO ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH WHAT LEADERSHIP LOOKS LIKE. I THINK TAKING A BREAK IS IMPORTANT, BUT ALSO LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT SHE SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE. SHE HAS MOVED THROUGH THE RANKS QUICKLY. AND IT IS A PRESSURISED ENVIRONMENT. I THINK I AGREE WITH YOU, ELLA. IT IS A WEIRD STORY. THERE IS VERY LITTLE DETAIL. WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT SHE HAS DONE. I THINK THAT IT IS A HIGH-PRESSURE ENVIRONMENT. DID SHE YELL AT A PUBLIC SERVANT A COUPLE OF TIMES? IF SHE DID, IS THAT THE BIGGEST DEAL IN THE WORLD? IT IS A WEIRD STORY. IT HAS BECOME A PROBLEM FOR THE PRIME MINISTER, BUT STRANGE THAT THERE ARE NO SPECIFICITIES. AS MINISTERS WHO HAVE FALLEN BY THE WAYSIDE IN THE PAST, WE KNOW EXACTLY WHY. BUT THIS ONE, WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. THE DEBBIE FRANCIS REVIEW FOUND THERE IS A REAL CULTURE PROBLEM THROUGHOUT ALL OF PARLIAMENT. IT DOESN'T FEEL REALISTIC TO THINK THAT HAS TURNED AROUND AND THE TIME SINCE THAT REPORT. DEPENDING ON WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCE LEVEL IS, THERE WILL BE DIFFERENT WAYS PEOPLE DEAL WITH THAT. PEOPLE WHO COME IN FROM THE OUTSIDE INTO THAT ENVIRONMENT DON'T HAVE A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE PLACE WORKS, AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MINISTERS AND MINISTRIES AND AGENCIES. THERE IS FRUSTRATION WITH THE PACE CHANGE. THEY WANT PACE TO BE FASTER. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WITH THIS INCIDENT, IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION IN WELLINGTON AROUND WHAT HAS GONE ON. THERE HAVE BEEN LOTS OF RUMOURS FLYING AROUND FOR A WHILE. TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, IT IS HOW PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WILL PERCEIVE IT, JUST THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED, AND THERE IS PROPERLY A DEEPER STORY THERE. IT IS ABOUT WHEN THAT STORY COMES OUT, ON THE PREMISE THAT WILL HAVE TO MAKE CALCULATIONS ABOUT WHAT HE WILL WHEN THINGS WILL COME OUT, WILL A RUN THAT RISK? HE NEEDS TO GET ON TOP OF IT. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO THE CONFRONTING FOOTAGE IN THE ORANGA TAMARIKI FACILITY. KELVIN DAVIS HAS BEEN CHILDREN'S MINISTER SINCE 2020, I THINK. THE QUESTION HERE IS WHAT IS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE. HE CLEARLY BELIEVES TAKING RESPONSIBILITY IS HIS JOB. I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR TO ARGUE THAT THE PUBLIC SEE RESPONSIBILITY AS, THIS HAS HAPPENED IN THE 2 1/2 YEARS I'VE BEEN THERE, AND I HAVE THE OVERSIGHT. PEOPLE WANT TO SEE LOOKING IN THE MIRROR. THIS IS ONE INCIDENT, AND IT IS ONE WE KNOW ABOUT. THERE WILL BE ALL SORTS OF THINGS GOING ON THERE. IT DOESN'T TAKES A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO WORK THAT OUT. THESE ARE EFFECTIVELY PRISONS, BUT NOT RUN LIKE THAT. YOU HAVE FRONT-LINE STAFF WHO ARE CLEARLY UNPREPARED. THAT IS A PRETTY GOOD POINT. I THINK, ALONG WITH ALL THIS, THE MINISTER WAS TALKING ABOUT CHANGE MANAGEMENT, BUT WHAT HE TRIED TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM TO? IS IT PUNISHMENT OR REHABILITATION? I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE ISSUE HERE. YOU CAN USE THE WORD CHANGE, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT IS THE PROBLEM YOU'RE TRYING TO SOLVE. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF THESE INSTITUTIONS IN THE SYSTEM? IT DOES SEEM LIKE HE IS PLAYING WHACK A MOLE ACROSS ORANGA TAMARIKI. I CALL IT THE MINISTRY OF CHILDREN, BECAUSE THE MAORI WORDS ARE SACRED WORDS. IT HAS WRESTLED OVER ITS IDENTITY. DO YOU PUNISH OR REFORM? I HAVE CONCERNS WITH ITS IDENTITY. I COME FROM A BACKGROUND IN BUSINESS. WE NEED TO BE TRAINING BETTER, WE NEED MICRO CREDENTIALS. A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL NOT SPEND $30,000 ON A STUDENT LOAN TO BE SOCIAL WORKERS. WE NEED TO BE GROWING THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE SKILLS TO WORK IN THAT ENVIRONMENT. FIX YOUR IDENTITY AND PERSONNEL. THEY GET TWO WEEKS TRAINING. IT IS SIX NOW. THAT WE KNOW IT WAS TWO. 2 WEEKS TRAINING TO GO INTO` FOR VARIOUS REASONS, THE BOYS WHO HAVE ENDED UP HERE HAVE HAD ALL SORTS OF TRAUMA THROUGH THEIR LIVES. THEY ARE GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO MANAGE. TO MEET THAT WITH CHUCKING STAFF IN THERE, OFTEN YOUNG STAFF, FOR TWO WEEKS, SEEMS HARD TO FATHOM. YOU CANNOT TELL ME THAT THE MINISTER DID NOT KNOW UNTIL THIS WEEK THAT THEY ONLY GETS TWO WEEKS. AND IF HE DID NOT KNOW, IT IS A PROBLEM. IT IS UNSAFE FOR THE CHILDREN AND THE WORKERS. WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME, BUT WE WILL HAVE YOU BACK LATER. A MURI AKE NEI ` KAINGA ORA CEO ANDREW McKENZIE HITS BACK AT CRITICS. PLUS, WHY IS A NEW DRUG LAW HITTING SOME HARDER THAN OTHERS? NEW FIGURES IN A SPECIAL REPORT FROM SENIOR REPORTER LAURA WALTERS. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. NEW FIGURES OBTAINED BY NEWSHUB NATION SHOW MAORI MAKE UP 45% OF DRUG PROSECUTIONS ` BUT JUST 17% OF THE POPULATION. ARE POLICE APPLYING THEIR DISCRETION EQUALLY? SENIOR REPORTER LAURA WALTERS WITH THIS REPORT. A DRUGS BUST IN SMALL-TOWN NEW ZEALAND. THEY KNOCKED ON THE DOOR. WE WEREN'T DRESSED, SO THEY WAITED AT THE DOOR UNTIL WE PUT SOME CLOTHES ON. MY PARTNER WENT OUT, TOLD THEM THAT THIS WAS ALL HERS. THEY TOOK HER PRETTY STRAIGHT AWAY TO THE POLICE STATION, SEIZED BOTH OUR CELL PHONES. I SAT HERE FOR HOURS WHILE THEY WENT THROUGH THE HOUSE. LAST SEPTEMBER, GARY AND MEL'S LIVES CHANGED. IT'S BROKEN ME A BIT. I HAVE SLEEPLESS NIGHTS. I HAVEN'T SLEPT VERY WELL FOR ALMOST A YEAR SINCE THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED. JUST THE FACT THAT I FEEL VIOLATED. DESTROYED INSIDE. I LOST MY JOB BECAUSE OF THIS. THEY COME AND IT JUST MAKES EVERYTHING LOOK LIKE` THE LIGHTS SHINE ON YOU. YOU ARE THE BADDIES. YOU'RE THE BADDIES IN THIS LITTLE TOWN. WHEN IN ACTUAL FACT, I CAN ASSURE YOU WE ARE FAR FROM THAT. LIKE THESE THINGS SO OFTEN ARE, GARY AND MEL'S SITUATION IS COMPLICATED. THE POLICE RAID TARGETED THEIR ILLICIT CANNABIS OPERATION. MEL SAYS SHE WAS GROWING CANNABIS FOR HERSELF AND TO SUPPLY FRIENDS WITH HEALTH ISSUES. NOW SHE'S FACING MULTIPLE DRUGS CHARGES. GARY, WHO HAS PREVIOUS CANNABIS CONVICTIONS, HAS ALSO BEEN CHARGED, THOUGH HE SAYS THIS TIME, NONE OF THE PLANTS WERE HIS. IN FACT, HE HAS A PRESCRIPTION TO ACCESS MEDICINAL CANNABIS LEGITIMATELY. AND HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE FACING THOSE CHARGES? SICK. FULL OF GRIEF. JUST` JUST AT MY WITS' END. IN 2019, A LAW CHANGE WAS INTRODUCED TO DEAL WITH THE DEADLY SYNTHETICS CRISIS. THE CURRENT APPROACH HAS NOT BEEN KEEPING KIWIS SAFE, SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO CONTINUE WITH IT. THE CHANGES FORMALISE POLICE DISCRETION, ESSENTIALLY DECRIMINALISING LOW-LEVEL DRUG USE. A HEALTH-BASED APPROACH WAS IN; CRIMINALISING DRUG USERS WAS OUT. OR SO IT SEEMED. BUT EVEN BACK THEN, EXPERTS WARNED THAT POLICE DISCRETION MIGHT NOT BE APPLIED EQUALLY. SO, THIS REFORM THAT'S GOING TO BE PUT IN PLACE, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE IT'S EVENLY APPLIED. FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE SECONDARY HARM OF A DRUG CHARGE IS WORSE THAN THE DRUG CHARGE ITSELF. THE ARRESTS AND THE PROSECUTIONS ARE JUST SO OUT OF WHACK WITH THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE. AND IN FACT, I'VE STARTED TO LOOK AT IT AS A FORM OF RACISM. FOUR YEARS ON, THOSE FEARS HAVE PLAYED OUT. NEW FIGURES SHOW THAT LAST YEAR MORE THAN 1000 PEOPLE WERE CONVICTED FOR CANNABIS USE OR POSSESSION, 49% OF THEM MAORI; WHILE THE OVERALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE PROSECUTED FOR CANNABIS POSSESSION HAS BEEN DROPPING, THE PROPORTION OF MAORI IS ON THE RISE. AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE ACTUAL NUMBER OF MAORI CONVICTED HAS OVERTAKEN PAKEHA. THE CHARGES GARY AND MEL FACE GO BEYOND JUST POSSESSION AND USE, BUT THEY QUESTION WHY THEY WERE RAIDED WHEN OTHERS, SOME WITH LARGER OPERATIONS, HAVE BEEN PASSED OVER BY POLICE. IT NEEDS TO BE... SORTED. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DECIDED TO TARGET YOU TWO? THEY SEEM TO JUST HAVE THIS IDEA THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE IN THAT KIND OF WORLD, WHERE DRUGS ARE PART OF OUR CULTURE. THE HEAD OF THE DRUG FOUNDATION SAYS BLAME FOR THE INCREASING INEQUITY SITS WITH ALL PARTS OF THE JUSTICE SECTOR, NOT JUST POLICE. YOU'RE NGAI TAHU? AE. HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL WHEN YOU SEE THESE STATISTICS? VERY DEPRESSED. WE WORK WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, AND IT'S THE SAME STORY IN PRETTY MUCH EVERY COUNTRY. SO WE'RE GETTING IT WRONG. WE'RE GETTING IT WRONG FOR MAORI IN PARTICULAR. WE'RE GETTING IT WRONG FOR EVERYONE. WE CAN DO BETTER IF WE TRY AND DO BETTER FOR MAORI AND WE TRY AND DO BETTER` WE WILL END UP DOING BETTER FOR EVERYONE, ESSENTIALLY. WE WANTED TO ASK THOSE IN CHARGE WHETHER THE LAW IS WORKING AS INTENDED. INSTEAD, WE WERE GIVEN RINGSIDE SEATS TO A GAME OF PASS THE HOT POTATO. THE JUSTICE MINISTER SAID RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS LAW SITS WITH THE HEALTH MINISTER. THE HEALTH MINISTER REFERRED US TO THE POLICE MINISTER. THE POLICE MINISTER TOLD US SHE COULDN'T COMMENT ON OPERATIONAL MATTERS. ALL ROADS LEAD TO POLICE, BUT OUR MULTIPLE REQUESTS FOR INTERVIEWS WERE DENIED. INSTEAD, POLICE PROVIDED THIS WRITTEN STATEMENT, SAYING THEY ARE COMMITTED TO IMPROVING OUTCOMES FOR MAORI SAYING THEY ARE COMMITTED TO IMPROVING OUTCOMES FOR MAORI AND THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT MAORI RECEIVE A HIGHER PROPORTION OF DRUG PROSECUTIONS THAN OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS. HOWEVER, THIS IS CONTRADICTED BY THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN DATA, WHICH SHOWS MAORI MAKE UP 45% OF THESE TYPES OF CHARGES BUT JUST 17% OF OUR GENERAL POPULATION. SINCE THE FAILED CANNABIS REFERENDUM, IT SEEMS NO ONE WANTS TO TOUCH THE ISSUE OF DRUG REFORM. GREEN MP CHLOE SWARBRICK WAS ONE OF THE POLITICIANS WHO FRONTED THE PUSH FOR GREATER DISCRETION. SO DOES SHE TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY? I WAS REALLY CLEAR IN 2019 THAT WHAT THE GREENS WERE FIGHTING FOR WAS DECRIMINALISATION. I HAVE SAID FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS THAT THE MISUSE OF DRUGS ACT IS ABHORRENT. SWARBRICK SAYS THESE OUTCOMES WERE ENTIRELY PREDICTABLE. IF YOU ARE ENABLING DISCRETION, YOU ARE POTENTIALLY GOING TO OPEN THE DOOR TO THE HUMAN ELEMENT OF POTENTIAL DISCRIMINATION. FOUR YEARS ON, IT'S UP TO POLITICIANS TO SORT IT OUT. MANY POLITICIANS ARE ON THE RECORD ADMITTING TO USING ILLICIT SUBSTANCES BACK IN THE MISTS OF TIME, BUT THEY NOW OVERSEE LAWS WHICH PENALISE, PROSECUTE AND RUIN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS THAT THEY ONCE DID. MEANWHILE, PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING, AND THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THIS LAW CHANGE INTENDED. YEAH, I THINK, FOR ME, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S` WE'VE PUT OUR FACES ON NATIONAL TV TO EXPOSE WHAT'S HAPPENING TO SMALL GUYS LIKE US. IT'S GOING TO IMPACT IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT, BECAUSE NOW PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM ` WILL SEE THIS FACE, AND THEY ARE GOING TO JUDGE. E WHAI AKE NEI, WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` THAT'S ELLA HENRY, NICK TRUEBRIDGE AND DILEEPA FONSEKA. PLUS, THE CEO OF KAINGA ORA PUSHES BACK ON CLAIMS OUR NEW STATE HOMES ARE EXPENSIVE AND UNSIGHTLY. HAMISH BLAKE: Um, did you want me to, like, move back or... ANDY LEE: Oh, would you? (DISTANTLY) How's that? Is that better?! No. Um... No worries, mate! I'll go further. Easy. (SIGHS) HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. A WARM, DRY HOUSE SHOULD BE A HUMAN RIGHT, SAYS THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSIONER, BUT THE WAITING LIST FOR STATE HOUSES SITS AROUND 25,000. KAINGA ORA ` THE REVAMPED HOUSING NEW ZEALAND ` ADMITS IT HAS BEEN SLOW TO REPLENISH STOCKS. IT'S LAUNCHED A NEW PROCESS WITH A BUDGET OF $6.5bn. SIMON SHEPHERD ASKED CHIEF EXECUTIVE ANDREW MCKENZIE WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE THEY CAN SUCCEED. WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORKING WITH WHAT WAS THEN HOUSING NEW ZEALAND, WE WERE BUILDING ABOUT 400 HOUSES, UM... AND SO WHAT ARE YOU BUILDING NOW? SO, A WEEK AGO, WE HAD ABOUT 6700 HOMES UNDER CONSTRUCTION. RIGHT. BUT IN THE LAST, SORT OF, FOUR, FIVE YEARS SINCE KAINGA ORA HAS COME INTO BEING, YOU'VE DELIVERED ABOUT` OR YOU'VE BUILT, ANYWAY ` ABOUT 8300, HAVEN'T YOU? YEAH. SO WE'VE BEEN SLOWLY BUILDING UP. THE GOVERNMENT SET US TARGETS FOR ADDING ADDITIONAL HOUSES TO OUR PORTFOLIO. WE'VE ALSO GOT ABOUT 70,000 HOUSES THAT PREDATED THESE NEW HOUSES BEING BUILT. YEAH, AND YOU'VE GOT TO REFURBISH 51,000 OF THOSE. YEAH. YEAH. SO HUGE RENEWAL PROGRAMME FOR US, AND WE'RE LOOKING, OVER THE NEXT 10 TO 13 YEARS, TO COMPLETE THAT RENEWAL PROGRAMME ON TOP OF ADDING EXTRA HOMES TO OUR PORTFOLIO. SO THE QUESTION IS ` ARE YOU ON TRACK? ARE YOU ON TRACK FOR THE RENEWAL? SO, WE` CERTAINLY, WE ARE` SO, THE FOCUS AT THE MOMENT IS ON ADDING TO OUR PORTFOLIO. SO EVERY YEAR, WE WOULD ANTICIPATE ABOUT 4000 TO 5000 HOMES... YEAH? ...BEING BUILT OR RENEWED FOR THE NEXT 10 OR SO YEARS. NOW, THAT'S A KIND OF A MEASURED PROGRAMME OF CONSTRUCTION. YEAH. THERE ARE SOME COMPLEXITIES. WE HAVE ABOUT 98.5% OCCUPANCY OF OUR EXISTING HOMES, SO WE HAVE TO` SO IT MAKES IT TRICKY WITH NEW TENANTS? YEAH, WE'VE GOT TO SEQUENCE IT REALLY WELL. BUT 51,000 ` I MEAN, ARE YOU REALLY THINKING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET THOSE REFURBISHED BY 2035? YEAH. YEAH, WELL, THIS YEAR JUST GONE` OR ARE PEOPLE GOING TO BE LEFT OUT IN THE COLD, YOU KNOW? YEAH` OR IN COLD, DAMP HOUSES? THIS YEAR JUST GONE, WE'VE COMPLETED ALMOST 3000 HOMES ` DESPITE THE FLOODS AND THE CYCLONES AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS ` AND REFURBISHED NEARLY 750 HOMES. SO OUR PROGRAMME'S IN PLACE; IT'S WORKING. FOR THE COMING YEAR, WE THINK WE WILL COMPLETE AROUND 5000 HOMES. RIGHT. OK. PLUS WE'LL REFURBISH ANOTHER 750. IN TERMS OF YOUR TRACK RECORD ` WHERE WE'RE UP TO NOW ` WOULD YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT'S BEEN SLOW AND COSTLY? NO, I DON'T THINK IT HAS BEEN. AND THESE ARE YOUR FIGURES ` TWO YEARS FROM DESIGN TO COMPLETING A BUILD. AND THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY SAYS THAT'S ABOUT 12 MONTHS FOR THEM. WELL, SO` IF YOU LOOK AT` IF THEY LOOK AT WHEN THEY GET AN ADDRESS, WHEN IT'S COMPLETED, WE'RE ABOUT AVERAGE FOR THE SECTOR. SO... YOU'RE AVERAGE? YEAH. SO YOU REFUTE THE IDEA THAT IT'S TAKEN TOO LONG? YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY? OK. I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ANOTHER LARGE BUILDING COMPANY, AND THEY SAY` AND WE'RE JUST GOING TO TAKE ONE EXAMPLE, BECAUSE I KNOW YOU BUILD A VARIETY OF HOMES, BUT... ITS EQUIVALENT THREE-LEVEL WALK-UP BUILDS ARE 30% TO 50% CHEAPER THAN YOURS AT ABOUT $270,000 PER UNIT. OK? WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT? I MEAN, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR UNIT PRICE IS FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? YEAH. SO, FOR A THREE-LEVEL WALK-UP` I MEAN, THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS THAT GO ON HERE; YOU'RE NOT NECESSARILY COMPARING APPLES WITH APPLES. SO THE HOMES WE BUILD, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE BETWEEN 10% AND 15% BIGGER THAN OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BUILD. SO WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE MARKET, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE BUILDING A HOME TO SELL; WE'RE BUILDING A HOME THAT'S GONNA LAST US FOR HOPEFULLY 70 OR 80 YEARS AND EARN US RENTAL INCOME OVER THE COURSE OF THAT BUILD. SO THE DURABILITY, THE SIZE, THE SPECIFICATIONS WE HAVE ` THE ADDITIONAL COMMON SPACES, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE'LL PUT INTO OUR BUILDS... FOR EXAMPLE, WE'VE JUST COMPLETED A BUILD IN MANGERE. YEAH? WE'VE BUILT THE FIRST PASSIVE HOUSES. SO WHAT WE'VE DONE IS WE'VE GONE IN THERE AND WE'VE TRIED TO MAKE THE HOUSES AS THERMALLY EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE, THE IDEA BEING THAT OUR CUSTOMERS WON'T HAVE TO SPEND A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY ON ENERGY. RIGHT. NEARLY DOWN TO A DOLLAR A DAY FOR ENERGY COSTS. OK, SO` I UNDERSTAND THAT. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THE QUALITY OF YOUR BUILD, OR THE LONGEVITY OF YOUR BUILD, IS BETTER THAN WHAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS DELIVERING? CERTAINLY, I'D SAY IT'S VERY` IT'S DIFFERENT, AND WE SPEC UP OUR HOUSES DIFFERENTLY, WHICH IS WHY WHEN WE BUILD HOMES, THEY MAY WELL COST MORE THAN 10% MORE, BUT THEY ARE BUILT DIFFERENTLY ` BIGGER, AS I SAY, AND WITH DIFFERENT SPECIFICATIONS. OK. SO, FOR THE FIRST TIME, YOU'VE GIVEN US YOUR AVERAGE COST PER SQUARE METRE. IT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE COME ACROSS THIS ` IT'S $3,462 PER SQUARE METRE, PLUS GST. THAT FIGURE'S BEEN REQUESTED MANY TIMES BY POLITICIANS IN PARLIAMENT. WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG TO BRING THAT OUT, TO REVEAL THAT? I CERTAINLY` WELL, WHEN WE WERE ASKED TO PROVIDE THE FIGURE, WE PROVIDED THE FIGURE. RIGHT. HAS THIS FIGURE BEEN REVIEWED BY INDEPENDENT QUANTITY SURVEYORS TO SAY THAT THIS IS THE` SORT OF, YOU KNOW, THE ACCURATE AMOUNT? YEAH. SO, WE EMPLOY QUANTITY SURVEYORS, AND THEY WILL HAVE PRODUCED THOSE FIGURES FOR US ON A LOT OF OUR PROJECTS. AGAIN, AS I SAID TO YOU, WE... PROCURE VIA THE` WE HAVE PROCURED VIA THE PRIVATE SECTOR PEOPLE TO DO OUR WORKS, AND THEY'LL PROVIDE THOSE COST ESTIMATES AND THE CONFIRMATION OF THE CONSTRUCTION COST. BUT THIS FIGURE IS FOR THE LAST SIX MONTHS. YEAH. IS THAT AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF THE PAST FIVE YEARS? I THINK IF YOU` WELL, CERTAINLY, IT WILL HAVE BEEN LOWER OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS. AND WE'VE HAD A LOT OF CONSTRUCTION COST INFLATION, AND, YOU KNOW, THE MARKET'S CERTAINLY TALKED A LOT ABOUT HOW THE COST OF MATERIALS AND LABOUR HAS GONE UP. IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY, YOU KNOW, PRICE OF HOUSING HAS GONE UP. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT MARK` THAT PRICE THERE REFLECTS THE LATEST FIGURES, BUT IT HAS BEEN ONE WHERE WE'VE SEEN A STEADY INCREASE IN COST. SO YOU'RE SAYING IT WOULD BE CHEAPER FOR THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS? DEFINITELY CHEAPER PREVIOUSLY. WHAT ABOUT THE STYLE OF WHAT YOU'RE BUILDING? OFTEN, THE CRITICISM IS THAT IT'S MORE LIKE A JUVENILE DETENTION CENTRE RATHER THAN AN UPSCALE SORT OF APARTMENT BLOCK. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT? I MEAN, SURELY YOU CAN PRIORITISE THE SUBSTANCE AND THE QUALITY AND THE STYLE? YEAH, I THINK THAT'S, UH... THAT'S A LITTLE BIT UNFAIR. IT'S ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. WE DO WIN AWARDS FOR THE DESIGN OF OUR HOMES. SO, AT THE RECENT PROPERTY COUNCIL AWARDS, I THINK FOUR OF OUR PROJECTS WON AWARDS FOR THE QUALITY OF HOME. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY MIXED VIEWS ABOUT ALL TYPES OF CONSTRUCTION. MM. BUT, YEAH, I MEAN, WE GET` SO YOU'RE HAPPY WITH THE QUALITY OF DESIGN? YEAH? WE GET ARCHITECTS TO DESIGN IT, AND THEY` OCCASIONALLY, I GUESS, I LOOK AT THINGS AND I GO, 'THAT'S NOT HOW I'D LIKE IT,' BUT WE'VE GOT EXPERTS WHO ARE TELLING US THIS IS AN EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT AND APPROPRIATE STANDARD OF BUILD. OK. LET'S TALK ABOUT PROJECT VELOCITY. IT'S` YOUR EFFORT TO REDUCE CONSTRUCTION COSTS BY 30%, HALVE THE TIME IT TAKES TO BUILD ` SO THAT IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THINGS HAVEN'T BEEN WORKING QUICKLY ENOUGH, ISN'T IT? YEAH. WELL, AS I SAY, WE WENT TO THE MARKET ONCE WE GOT THE, UM... THE PROGRAMME OF BUILD THAT THE GOVERNMENT WANTED FROM US, AND WE SAID TO THEM, 'HOW DO WE WORK TOGETHER TO IMPROVE SPEED, 'RELIABILITY, QUALITY, VALUE FOR MONEY?' AND THEY CAME BACK TO US AND GAVE US THINGS. WE TRIED IT; WE STILL WEREN'T SEEING AN INCREASE IN THOSE FACTORS, SO WE WENT BACK AND SAID, 'OK, WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO WORK 'IN A MUCH MORE FORENSIC` TO MUCH MORE FORENSIC LEVEL OF DETAIL 'TO WORK OUT WHAT'S GOING WRONG HERE.' AND AS WE WORK THROUGH IT, WE'RE DOING THINGS WHICH ARE REALLY TRANSFORMATIONAL AND WHICH` YOU KNOW, WE'RE WORKING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE INDUSTRY FOR DECADES WHO ARE SAYING THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT THE PROCESS AND SEQUENCING THAT YOU GO THROUGH TO BUILD A HOME. I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SEE IN THE SECTOR IS A REAL FRAGMENTATION OF THE... ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN BUILDING. SO` AND ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT THIS PROCESS THAT YOU'RE IMPLEMENTING, IT'S GOING TO DELIVER ON THAT? YOU'RE GOING TO BUILD 9500 HOMES AT A COST OF $6.5bn BILLION THROUGH THIS PROJECT? AT A COST OF $6.5bn THROUGH THIS PROJECT? YEAH. WELL, I MEAN` THROUGH THIS DESIGN PROCESS? THAT'LL BE ONE OF THE PROCESSES WE USE TO GET THOSE HOMES DELIVERED, YEAH ` ABSOLUTELY. OK. AND THE PEOPLE WE WORK WITH ARE THE ONES WHO ARE IDENTIFYING THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US. I MEAN, WE'VE TESTED THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN, PRE-CONSTRUCTION, AND THE RESULTS KEEP COMING BACK. WE DO IT WAY FASTER, AND THE NUMBER OF HOURS OF LABOUR THAT GO INTO DESIGNING AND PREPARING THE HOMES FOR CONSENT GOES DOWN MASSIVELY. BUT AT THE MOMENT, YOU'VE ONLY BUILT 19 THROUGH THIS PROCESS. WE HAVE 700 HOMES WORKING THROUGH THE PROCESS, SO WE ARE STILL FINALISING OUR CONSTRUCTION PROCESS TESTING. THAT'S ONE WHERE WE ARE TRYING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE APPROACH BUILD. AND WHEN YOU ACTUALLY STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE PROCESS AS YOU GO THROUGH ` YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT OF OPAQUENESS AROUND HOW THINGS ARE ORGANISED. AND ANYONE WHO HAS DONE A RENOVATION WILL KNOW THE WAY IN WHICH YOU PHASE THINGS AND THE AVAILABILITY OF LABOUR IS REALLY DIFFICULT. SO YOU'RE REALLY HOPING THAT THIS IS REALLY GOING TO SPEED THAT UP, I UNDERSTAND? WE'VE BEEN THROUGH, TESTED IT, PROVED IT. IT DOES DRAMATICALLY IMPROVE THINGS. JUST BEFORE WE GO, I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND ` THE AIM OF STATE HOUSING AND PRIVATE HOUSING IS REALLY TO DEVELOP COMMUNITIES TOGETHER; WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET THAT? WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET THAT? IS THE PROBLEM THAT WE SEE WITH THE PUSHBACK AGAINST KAINGA ORA THE PREJUDICE AGAINST STATE TENANTS, OR IS IT THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT STATE HOUSING IN THEIR COMMUNITIES? I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS. WELL, THERE'S ALWAYS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO PUSH BACK AGAINST PEOPLE COMING IN. ONE OF THEM IS FOR A REASON, THE OTHER IS WHAT THEY DO. LOOK, I MEAN, OUR EXPERIENCE IS WHEN WE HAVE OVER 200,000 PEOPLE LIVE IN OUR HOMES, AND ABOUT HALF OF THEM ARE KIDS... THEY QUALIFY TO LIVE IN OUR HOMES BASED ON NEED. SO THE GOVERNMENT SAYS, 'THESE PEOPLE ARE THE MOST NEEDY AT THE MOMENT. 'CAN YOU HOUSE THEM? 'AND WE WANT TO SUPPORT THEM IN THIS MANNER.' AND OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO TRY TO KEEP THEM HOUSED. NOBODY WANTS HOMELESS PEOPLE. NOBODY WANTS PEOPLE SLEEPING IN CARS, ON THE STREETS, ON SOFAS. THAT IS NOT A GOOD LIVING SITUATION FOR ANYONE TO LIVE IN. SO WHAT WE DO IS WE DO FAR MORE THAN ANY OTHER LANDLORD WOULD. WHEN WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH OUR CUSTOMERS, WE'LL GO IN AND TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON AND HELP THEM TO ADDRESS THOSE PROBLEMS. ULTIMATELY, WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK, THEN WE WILL MOVE THEM AND TRY AND FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO RELOCATE. THAT'S YOUR POLICY, ISN'T IT? IT'S NOT TO EVICT, BUT TO RELOCATE. WE DON'T WANT SOMEBODY TO END UP ON THE STREETS. SO MUCH THERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, ANDREW MCKENZIE. NO WORRIES. THANK YOU, SIMON. THANK YOU. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATOU. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. (LAUGHTER AND CHATTER) (LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS) (PEOPLE GASP) (BELLOWS) Call this a feast?! Fetch more foodage! (DRAMATIC MUSIC) M'lady. (PEOPLE CHATTER) (EPIC MUSIC) (PEOPLE CHEER) Is this Greek salad? Nah, it's from New Zealand, eh! VOICEOVER: Four Square. What'll it be today? HOKI MAI ANO. WE'RE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` ELLA HENRY, NICK TRUEBRIDGE AND DILEEPA FONSEKA. WELCOME BACK. I WANT TO START ON THE DECRIMINALISATION OF CANNABIS. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING. WE HAVE KNOWN FOR A VERY LONG TIME THAT UNCONSCIOUS BIAS HAS PLAYED AN ENORMOUS PART IN THE WAY THE POLICE PERCEIVE MAORI ` MORE LIKELY TO BE STOPPED, CHARGED, INCARCERATED. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY EVIDENCE THAT THAT HAS CHANGED. THAT IS AROUND BETTER TRAINING AND PREPARATION FOR THE POLICE OFFICERS COMING THROUGH. MORE TRAINING, GIVEN THESE NEW DISCRETIONS ON UNCONSCIOUS BIAS? AND CULTURAL COMPETENCE AND SAFETY. THEY SOUND LIKE MUSHY WORKS, BUT THEY ACTUALLY PRACTICAL FOR DEALING WITH YOUR OWN INTERNAL BIAS. WHEN YOU LOOK AT TWO CARS AND ONE IS DRIVEN BY A WHITE MAN AND ONE IS DRIVEN BY A BROWN WOMAN, WHO WILL YOU STOP? EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE BOTH BREAKING THIS SAME INFRINGEMENT. WE HAVE KNOWN THIS FOR A WHILE. IT IS A FUNNY STORY. I STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY` IF THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS HAVE DONE EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY THEY HAVE DONE, IT SOUNDS LIKE GROWTH YOU PLANTS FOR SOME MATES AND THEMSELVES, I STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAVE BEEN RATED, UNLESS THERE IS MORE TO IT. *RAIDED. DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY. IT IS JUST WE'D. *WEED. I JUST THINK IF SOMEBODY IS GROWING A FEW PLANTS IN THEIR GARDEN AND SMOKING ON THE WEEKENDS, IT'S LIKE, WHO CARES? LIVE AND LET LIVE? I JUST THINK IT IS NOT THAT BIG AN ISSUE. AT LEAST WHAT WE WERE PRESENTED WITH JUST DID NOT SEEM LIKE THAT BIG OF A DEAL. ESPECIALLY WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM STRETCHED, POLICE ARE STRETCHED ` IS THE BEST USE OF RESOURCES THIS? I THINK OFFICERS ON THE GROUND DON'T NECESSARILY FACE THOSE DECISIONS, BUT THE HIGHER-UPS AND THE POLITICIANS HAVE TO MAKE THOSE TRADE-OFFS. SO WE HAVE TWO BE AWARE THAT IF YOU WANT TO CRACKDOWN ON PARTICULAR CRIMES, YOU CAN DO IT, BUT THERE IS A COST; IT MEANS YOU CAN'T CATCH SOMETHING ELSE OR IT MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE SOME MONEY OUT OF ANOTHER SEGMENT OF THE BUDGET. WHAT WAS FUNNY WAS SEEING JUSTICE, HEALTH AND POLICE MINISTERS ALL RUNNING FOR COVER. IT IS A TRICKY DILEMMA. IN ANY SOCIETY THAT SPENDS SO MUCH ENERGY DEMONISING ITS CONSTITUENCY FOR VICTIMLESS CRIMES, IT IS WASTING RESOURCES. IT IS THE MERRY-GO-ROUND THAT LAURA DESCRIBED ARGUABLY A BIGGER STORY THAN THE ACTUAL MARIJUANA ISSUE. ONE POLITICIAN PASSING THE BUCK TO ANOTHER, GOING TO THE POLICE, THE POLICE PROVIDE A STATEMENT, AND THAT IS ALL YOU GET. IS THAT HE ACCOUNTABILITY WE EXPECT? THAT WAS IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE NUMBERS. YOU ARE BACK ON THE MERRY-GO-ROUND. WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE CEO? KAINGA ORA, I THOUGHT HE MADE A PRETTY GOOD OFFENCE BY THE NUMBERS OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING. THEY ARE IN A TOUGH POSITION, BECAUSE KAINGA ORA HAS ONLY GENERALLY BEEN ABOUT 4% TO 6% OF BUILDING CONSENT, SO THEY ARE NOT THE DOMINANT FORCE IN THE INDUSTRY, AND THEY FACE CONSTRAINTS THAT HAVE BEEN HOBBLING THE WHOLE INDUSTRY. OBJECTIONS TO CONSENT; EVERY TIME YOU HEAR ABOUT A DEVELOPMENT, THERE IS A NEIGHBOURHOOD OBJECTION; DEVELOPERS WHO AREN'T KAINGA ORA SPENT YEARS IN COURT SOMETIMES, AND I AM SURE THEY HAVE CASES TO; AND HE MENTIONED PROJECT VELOCITY ` I THINK IT IS WORTH` ONE OF THE STATISTICS THAT CAUSE THAT TO BE A TREND IN THE FIRST PLACE ` PRE-CONSTRUCTION WOULD TAKE THEM 18 MONTHS TO PLAN THESE THINGS BEFORE A SPADE WENT ON THE GROUND. AND THAT` I THINK FROM THAT INITIAL PILOT THEY WERE DOING IT WAS ESTIMATED THAT COULD GO DOWN TO 2 OR THREE MONTHS. A SIGNIFICANT SAVING OF TIME. SO THOSE ARE SOME PRETTY BIG BARRIERS THERE. ABSOLUTELY. AND KIWIS LOVE TO HATE KAINGA ORA. SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN BUILDING ENOUGH HOUSING SINCE THE 1980S. THAT IS JUST WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING. I HAVE BEEN FOR MANY YEARS THE ADVOCATE OF A CENTRALISED PROCUREMENT AND PURCHASING ENTITY. WE PAY FAR TOO MUCH FOR BUILDING MATERIALS COMPARED TO AUSTRALIA. WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CENTRALISED PHARMACY AGENCY? IN THE 40S AND 50S WE BUILT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF HOUSES THAT COMPLETELY HOUSED OUR POPULATION. WHY CAN WE NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY? JUST CARRIES ON, DOESN'T IT? I WAS GOING TO SAY I THINK KAINGA ORA HAS AN IMPOSSIBLE JOB. EVERY TIME YOU READ SOMETHING IN THE MEDIA ABOUT THE LOCALS IN GLEN INNES COMPLAINING ABOUT IT BEING PLONKED IN THEIR BACKYARD. IT IS NOT AN ENVIABLE TASK, I DON'T THINK. I WAS INTERESTED HE SAID THAT 50% OF THE PEOPLE THEY HOUSE OUR CHILDREN ` IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT TOO. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON THE PANEL. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. WE'LL BE OFF AIR NEXT WEEKEND TO CELEBRATE MATARIKI. DON'T FORGET THAT IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE BETWEEN THE MAORI AND GENERAL ELECTORAL ROLLS, YOU'LL NEED TO DO IT BEFORE THURSDAY. OTHERWISE, NGA MIHI NUI; WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN IN A FORTNIGHT. CAPTIONS BY KATE MCCULLOUGH AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023