- Takina, takina. Takitakina mai nga manu o te rangi. Karanga mai, karanga mai, karanga mai. Karanga mai e te hui. Kia puta whakawaho nga korero o te wa ki ateatanga. Haumi e! Hui e! Taiki e! This week on The Hui ` less than a hundred days out from the election. All the candidates are confirmed in the Maori seats. Maori issues are right at the forefront, and the Maori vote is likely to decide the next government. Our political panel dissects the latest. And days out from the Fifa women's world cup ` Ngapuhi striker Paige Satchell has ambitious goals. - Our home World Cup is the perfect opportunity to make history. Yeah. We're gunning for it. We really wanna do this. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Able 2023 - Te hunga kua raumemene atu ki te po. Haere mai, haere! Tatou e whakaurupa mai nei i a ratou ma ki te hiengaro, Tihewa Mauriora! And welcome back to The Hui. We are just under 90 days away from the election. And boy, has the politic-ing ramped up. From Labour's 'In it for you' to National's 'Get New Zealand back on track', to the Green's latest policy release to return stolen Maori land. And a new political force for the Maori Party who will turn 21 before the election. So much to discuss. So let's rock into it with our political panel of rockstars. Experienced, intrepid experts of the body politic. Oh, and Shane Te Pou's here as well. Professor of International Business Strategy and Entrepreneurship at AUT University, Professor Ella Henry joins us. E te ahorangi, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Former list MP for New Zealand First and broadcaster Jenny Marcroft is here as well. Jenny, tena koe, e te whanaunga. - Kia ora. - And political raconteur and commentator, he joins us for the first time this year. He's been feeling a little aggrieved that I've left him out, but he's back now ` Shane Te Pou. Shane, tena koe. - Good. Kia ora. - So good to have you all. OK, let's rock into it. So much to discuss. Let's start with Labour, with the government's decision on capital gains tax. No capital gains tax, no wealth tax. Has Chris Hipkins done the right thing here? Professor. - Look, I can` I can see how that movement that began with Jacinda's clear statement a few years back is rolling on because of holding on to that middle ground. 'The middle ground'. The place where most Maori are not, because... around about 60% of us don't own a home. So that is not a piece of policy that's going to affect the majority of us. So I think he's playing it safe for that middle centrist ground rather than trying to attract the most disadvantaged. - But it would attract a lot of money. I mean, billions of dollars, particularly even just with the wealth tax, which, by the way, surveys had had a bit of support there, Shane, for hospitals, homes, you know, weather events. Slipping poll numbers ` that could have done some real good. - I think it is. Look, two points I would make. The first point I would make is that I think that he got a little bit spooked when we saw... the right go, you know, 3 to 4% ahead in the polls. I think also there was a bit of a scrap within the Labour caucus. You know, I hear that Robinson was very interested in and wanted to do it. But here's the thing; I think that a lot of people will say, 'Yeah, I do support capital gains tax.' 'I don't mind, you know, the rich paying more tax.' But... They'll lean in. They're called political learners. 'As long as it doesn't cost me any more.' So increasing tax, whether it be a wealth tax or tax per se, really isn't a vote winner. And whether we do like it or not, elections are won or lost in the middle. - Jenny, I thought people liked parties who have the courage of their convictions. - Well, if we go back to the parliament` the 52nd parliament between 2017 and 2020, Labour had it and put it in front of New Zealand First as a coalition partner, a capital gains tax, and Winston and his team, of which I was a member, we said no. So it was on the table. They had the courage to bring it forward. (GRUNTS) goes the handbrake with New Zealand First and it's off the table and clearly it's still off that table. And as Shane pointed out, the centrist voter doesn't like it. - The polls would say, though, that Labour needs something, that it is slipping in the polls, that National and the ACT Coalition have started to build a bit of a lead. Now, they still need something to get them across the line, whether it be the Maori Party or anyone else. They still need something to get across 50%. Where does that leave the potential for your former party, NZ First? - Well, the only thing that is being clearly stated by Winston as he's gone around the country over the last couple of months is that New Zealand First will not go into coalition with Labour. Any other statements? No` have not been made at this point. - Is that` OK. That's an interesting decision because obviously National and ACT have ruled out the Maori Party, right? And obviously without the Maori Party on current polling, they won't make over 60 seats in Parliament, therefore they can't be the Government. So where does it leave us do you think? - Well, ultimately we're gonna see this incredibly tight race running right up to October the 14th. And, I` you know, we can all stick our finger in the wind and take a look at polls and all of those things to see how it's gonna shake down on the ground. But what we hear on the ground versus what we're seeing in polls are two different things. - So, what are we hearing on the ground? And then I'll ask` - So, in the` - I'll talk for Northland because I've recently been up to Dargaville and spent some time with Shane Jones on the ground. So in the north, we're hearing that the nat voters are not particularly happy with Luxon as a leader and that they will give Shane their vote as the electorate, but they possibly could give the vote to the ACT Party, which would` which really is interesting. So... are we gonna see that replayed around the rest of the country? Who knows? - Shane, so let's talk about this. Any chance NZ First gets over 5%? I mean, even in some polls the Maori Party's at 4%. - Yeah. No, look, I'm never going to publicly accept that Winston's political career is over. - (LAUGHS) Many have tried. - You know? But they do say a souffle never rises three times. He's risen twice. I don't think that Shane will win Northland unless there's a deal. And some six, seven weeks ago, I think I was the first one that put it out there. And if the polls are very close in terms of the left, rights bit, I think Luxon will go up to Te Tai Tokerau, put his hand` his shoulder on Shane Jones' hand and say, 'This is the guy you should vote for.' - So that says though that you don't think New Zealand First is gonna get over 5%. - No, what I'm saying is that if the polls are tight and there is a real possibility that they don't get over 5%, I think a deal with Shane Jones is on the table. - Just look at Dargaville a week or so back when Shane and Winston did a public meeting, the hall was packed out. We had to get more seats out. The day before, the National Party candidate with Todd McClay held a meeting. They had 18 people turn up to their public meeting. So, you know ` - There's a big difference, though, in all due respect, between an opposition MP turning up with the local candidate who's not in Parliament and the leader. I think if Luxon turned up, he'd probably get five or 600 people and Hipkins could get a good crowd. - Now, Ella Henry, let's talk a little bit about Maori policy, particularly here, because there's also lots of talk from NZ First and others about Maori policy and in particular the Maori Party. Do we really believe that National won't make the phone call if it needs the Maori Party to get there in the end? - I mean... I have watched enough elections to know the difference between the statements you make definitively before and the statements you make quietly afterwards to know that it's going to be the electorate to decide who's talking to whom afterwards. But at the same time also, and I have to say this about Shane, he's a bit of a TikTok winner. So I think that` - (LAUGHS) - He's very entertaining. Shane the farmer on his TikTok. I'm sure that's opened the door to a whole new constituency. But the reality is it's those candidates and those people that can reach out into our community that I think are gonna sway on the day, and that's what it takes. - And we will talk about the Maori seats soon. - Julian, can I just say, if Luxon is relying on the Maori Party, that will mean that ACT soon will be quite dominant in terms of the Cabinet. And we know what ACT's kaupapa is. It's diametrically opposed to where we're at and there's no way in hell I can see an Act, National Party, Maori Party coalition. Luxon might` but ACT is a very different beast and Luxon is a very different beast. The call might be made, but I don't think it will be answered. - OK, let's go to some other matters here. Do Maori voters in particular really care about what a party slogan might be? I mean, 'in it for you'. I read a comment` I don't know if you guys` if you saw all this, but there was a comment from someone on Twitter who said that that's my line I use on a social media` on a dating app. You know? In it for you. Do people really care about this, or.. ? - In my experience, Maori are not looking for log lines. What we will` and I've found consistently we will vote for people rather than parties and rather than policy. Sometimes that's worked against us horribly. You know, we've stayed loyal to individuals perhaps longer than was good for us. But it's going to be the people who speak to the people most cogently that are gonna get through. And for rangatahi, I think that's critical because there are` we have a large cohort of Maori who are coming to their first ever elections, born in this century, this millennium, and who attracts them is going to, I think, hold a balance. - I was severely underwhelmed by their slogans. - Yeah. - 'In it for you' and 'get New Zealand back on track' sounded a little bit Trump lite, almost. - Yeah. I don't think slogans are gonna do it. I mean, you know, the Labour Party, obviously all of those candidates have to fall in behind that particular slogan, as do the ones, you know` the nats back on track. You know, that's the party that derailed the railways. - (LAUGHS) - So, you know, suddenly they're talking about getting back on track. So... you know, why would you why would you have a slogan like that, anyway? Particularly for the nats. - Because independent thought and maverick MPs are a showpiece of New Zealand First over the last ten years. (LAUGHTER) - You fellas are harsh, aue. - It doesn't` it doesn't do well. - (LAUGHS) What do you mean, Shane? - But I just think that... Slogans don't mean much but you've got to look at the group of policies. And I think that and I think that, um... one of the core constituency that Labour will rely on to get over the line is the women's vote. And I've seen some of the sub-polling. And so I think it does have a level of attraction. But it's` what it did for... Labour in government had said, 'We're off. The race is on.' And they did that yesterday. - Right. We will talk more about policy, particularly Green Party policy and also people, which is really important in Maori electorates. We'll talk about that as well after this. We will have more with Professor Ella Henry, Jenny Marcroft and Shane Te Pou after the break. - Kia ora mai ano, ko Te Hui tenei e whakahuihui nei i nga korero torangapu o te wa. We are in the studio with our political virtuosos, Ngati Kahu ki Whangaroa Professor Ella Henry, Ngapuhi Jenny Marcroft, and because you can't really have a hui Maori without a Tuhoe; Shane Te Pou is here with us as well. Let's talk about the Maori electorates. Ahorangi ` Professor. Where will the tightest races do you think, be in the Maori electorates? - I think there'll be certainly the ones that we need to watch because it's too hard to call at this stage. Some of those electorates are still` we're still working out who and what is on the ground. I certainly think that the young woman that Te Pati Maori have brought in is very much a face of the future. She's gonna be one to watch. A young artist, writer, whatever. So I think they're recognising earlier than some of the other parties that if you want to reach out in that Maori community, rangatahi faces are going to play an important part. - You mean Hana-Rawhiti-Clarke` - Yes. - ... who might be very impressive. And we hear that there's lots of new Maori voters, both on the general roll and the Maori roll. Maybe even rangatahi. I mean, do you think that's something, as Professor Ella Henry said, Shane, more rangatahi on the ticket is a good thing? - No. Not gonna beat Nanaia Mahuta. Might ` might whack into her majority a little bit, but not it's not gonna... not gonna beat Nanaia. I think in terms of the races, Waiariki will stay with Te Pati Maori. I am calling Te Tai Hauauru to go into Te Pati Maori. Adrian had a heck of a on ground machine. He's not standing, so his whanau is staying home. And I think even Labour's realises Te Tai Hauauru is going. The one to watch, I reckon, is Tamaki Makaurau. I've seen a level of vibrancy in that campaign over the last four weeks that surprised me quite positively. It's enthused me. And you know, I'm a Labour, Green voter, and I think that's gonna be one of the seats to watch. And what we need is we need to see some vibrancy from the Labour candidate and the Labour team in Tamaki Makaurau. - Jenny, New Zealand First doesn't stand a Maori seat, so purely agnostic view coming up here. - Totally agnostic. But I would disagree in terms of Te Tai Hauauru, I think that Harete Hipango has a fair crack at that because she has Dame Tatiana Turia everywhere she goes, she` they are rolling out together. So she is using her fire to gain and garner support in that electorate. And without Adrian standing there ` and I think that's a big shame that he didn't continue to stand ` he certainly would have cleaned up, otherwise. And I agree, Tamaki Makaurau ` that is one I'm particularly interested in watching Kelvin's gonna smash it out in Tai Tokerau. No doubt about it. - What about Ikaroa Rawhiti? I mean, is that game over? I mean, Cushla Tangaere is a very talented` - She is talented. But I think that she's gonna struggle in terms of ground game. If` ground game is really important, if the... if the race is tight, and... you know, there's a lot of disharmony. People are still upset with Meka and the way she left and some of her supporters that she left behind. Now... Te Ikaroa-Rawhiti certainly is one to watch. - OK. What about the latest policy decision from the Green Party released, I think earlier today? The Hoki Whenua Mai policy provides a pathway for a return of Maori land previously taken and for recommendations from the Waitangi Tribunal to make recommendations on private land. What's the impact of this going to be, do you think? - Well, obviously I'm 150% behind that, but the reality is there's a significant number of the electorate that will not be and I'm not 100% sure that this is going to entrench the position of the Green Party in that centre ground that I spoke about before. But for Maori, for moral obligation, for legal obligation, I think it's critically important as we move forward to have the discussion. - Are there unintended consequences? - The unintended consequences is that Act and National will raise hundreds of thousand dollars off the back of that cos they'll simply say, 'They can come after your house. They can come up after your farm.' Look, I recognise that the treaty process is far from perfect, but it's pretty much settled law. We've got a settled process. We purposely haven't brought private land to it. I think it just brings in a whole lot of trouble that we don't need. And the other thing is there are mechanisms already in which the Crown can negotiate with private owners. - These seem to be issues that New Zealand first talks about a lot too. - Yeah. And I think in terms of unintended consequences, the Green Party is gonna lose a bit of vote back to National` Sorry, back to Labour because of this. But I think what we must be really mindful of is that we can all acknowledge there are there are past harms and trauma caused by the confiscation of land. There's no doubt about it. What this will do; it will create a new set` a new cycle of harm and trauma, psychological trauma by taking another set of people's land. Do we really want to embed that into the DNA of New Zealand and the future? That's something I think we need to be very mindful of. - OK. I wanted to talk a little bit about ACT and the reason why I wanted to raise more about them is they are the party that consistently has been doing well over the latest polls for whatever reason. And we've heard Debbie Ngarewa-Packer talk about the fact that their leader is racist even though he's Ngapuhi. What about how they're going and why are... why is the ACT Party still popular in polls? Is it the dog whistling? - I mean, obviously, there's a little bit of that. But the reality is there's this maybe 10 to 15% of the voting age New Zealanders for whom everything and anything about Te Tiriti, Te Ao Maori, is challenging and triggering. And I think those are part of the core, the coalesce around a political party, that does not want that to be part of the New Zealand political landscape. And the only thing I hope is that we can outlive them. - (LAUGHS) Yeah. - I thought they would be a decreasing population. - Yeah, but... The right vote, even if you take their best poll they've had to date, the right vote hasn't really grown a heck of a lot. All they're doing is cannibalising, I think, some of the New Zealand First vote, certainly some of the National vote. Why are they being as successful as they are? Cos their message, whether you like it or not, is strong and it's consistent. And wherever David Seymour goes, he articulates this very simple same line. - Cos he's taken out of New Zealand First Winston Peters playbook. He's literally imitated Winston. And, you know... we're seeing someone who's young and articulate repeat those messages that Winston rolled out. So, you know... As much as David Seymour might say he doesn't like Winston and he's quite verbal about it, he's certainly imitating him. - Any positive impact of that, though, in terms of vote for the Maori Party? Because we've seen the increase in the Maori Party in the two recent polls, as I say, up to 4%. There seems to be a bit of response going, 'Well, hang on.' 'We're gonna start looking at the Maori Party, particularly as Labour starts to continue to slip.' - And I do think that as that fringe coalesces at one end of the spectrum, it does motivate at the other end of the spectrum. There is a kind of balancing effect. But I think the critical issue facing the Te Pati Maori and any of the left is how do we galvanise our young Maori ` and it is predominantly young Maori ` to vote? How do we teach our people the importance of voting when many generations of them have never even thought about it? - I was gonna ask about civics and we've run out of time. We'll do` hey, we'll do that` No, let's do this again sometime, cos I've really enjoyed it. We need to do it again. Aianei ake, he whana poikiri te aronga nui. But thank you to my guests, of course; Jenny Marcroft, Shane Te Pou, Professor Ella Henry. Tena koutou katoa. Next we talk with the nifty Ngapuhi from Ngongotaha who is neatly placed to help the Football Ferns achieve World Cup glory for New Zealand. - Tena katou katoa. When tens of millions tune in for the start of the FIFA Women's World Cup on Thursday night, Ngapuhi's Paige Satchell will be in the middle of the action. The Football Ferns striker started playing in Ngongotaha. has played in the prestigious German Premier League, and in Aussie. She's now back home with the Wellington Phoenix before earning her place in our national side for its biggest ever home tournament. And she says she and her football Ferns teammates have a very ambitious goal for this World Cup. Paige, tena koe kia ora. Thank you so much for talking to us. Really good to talk to you. - It's awesome to be here. - It's awesome to sit down with you and just watch you train. Man you're quick, eh? - (LAUGHS) Yeah. I'd say that's probably one of my biggest strengths, is my speed. So, yeah. I try to bring that out in training and games and use it to my advantage. - So, let me make sure I've got this right. Your dad's Ngapuhi? - Yeah. - Your mum's Irish. - Yes. (LAUGHS) - So, I know a lot of Ngapuhi, being Ngapuhi myself, and I'm also part Irish. I suspect I know where the talent comes from. - (LAUGHS) - I suspect that's not from the Ngapuhi side. But anyway, talk me through where that comes from. Skill, speed, talent. Where do you think that` which side of the family? - Yeah, I'm not sure. My mum and my dad, I think they both grew up playing a lot of sports. I think Dad was into rugby mostly, and... but Mum also did a lot of running. I grew up doing athletics and cross-country, so I think I got the running side of things probably from my mum and I think she went to a national championship as well, which is awesome. So it's definitely helped me. - So, you were a national champion in cross country, weren't you? - Yeah. So, year nine secondary school's cross country champ. - Wow. - So, yeah. Did it up here in Auckland actually. So yeah, that was awesome. And then, yeah. Spent a lot of time doing athletics and cross country and then eventually chose the path of football. - Yeah. So, talk to me` why football? - I think I really enjoyed the team aspect. I found that running... I put a lot of pressure on myself and it was very individualized. And so when I came into football, I really loved being part of something and being able to come to training and see your friends every single day. And it was just the enjoyment factor and the fun factor for me. It's been going well so far and there's been a lot of opportunities. I've been playing professionally for four years now, which has been amazing. And then in the national team since 2016, so, super grateful for the opportunities that I've had. And, yeah. Definitely glad I chose football. (LAUGHS) - Cos you're a forward, right? - Yes. - And... the view is ` and I don't know if this is a justified view or not ` is that forwards, and in particular, strikers, seem to be fairly individual. You know? They seem to be the kind of stars of the show. So what's that like, given you're in this team preparing for the World Cup? And potentially one of the breakout stars of the world in the World Cup coming up? - Yeah, I mean, I guess as a forward, you're generally the players that are scoring goals. And so a lot of the time when you do score, you do get the spotlight shown on you. But it also comes with a little bit of pressure as well because you do kind of have that expectation that you're gonna be having those opportunities on goal. And so, sometimes you have to be a bit selfish and take those shots yourself, but there's no other position I'd rather play. It's where I've played my whole life. And I love it. I love the creativity of being a forward and being able to take plays on and juggle, but you're kind of that person that is expected to win the game for your team. - You talked about pressure. The other thing that comes to mind is the added sense of responsibility, right? So, this World Cup's at home, but we know you're one of us. We know you're Maori, as I said, Ngapuhi. How do you deal with potentially the expectation people have, not only to do well in the team, but also carry that kind of responsibility for us? Because you're one of us. - Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it's such a privilege to be playing at a home World Cup, but yeah, it does come with the expectation that we want to do well. We want to make our friends and our whanau proud, so we're just doing everything we can at the moment to prepare best we can individually and as a team so that when we step out on the field on the 20th of July against Norway that we can really put on a great performance and show how hard we've been working, cos this hasn't just been this nine weeks of camp. This team has been working so hard for years and years. So we're excited to show New Zealand what we've got. We're excited to make you guys proud and I can't wait to step out on the field. - Why are there so few of us, do you think, playing football? And also not recognized nationally? Why do you think that is and what should we be doing about it? - Yeah, I mean... as you say, there's not too many of us. We've got a few in our team, which is awesome, but it would be great to kind of see more female Maori getting out onto the football pitch. I think a big part of it is just, yeah, having those idols that people can look up to. So, I mean... it's great that coming into this World Cup, I'm hoping that I can inspire, like, this younger generation of female footballers to come through and see that being Maori, it is possible to, kind of, make it to this platform. And, yeah. If you really put your mind to it, you can do anything. - Yeah. Cos didn't you play in the Bundesliga at one stage? - I did. Yup. (LAUGHS) - So, do you think` I mean, that's something to talk about, right? I mean, Winston Reid we all know. Yes, Maori. From Aotearoa, but played overseas a lot. Winton Rufer is still regarded as one of the greatest strikers in German football history, in club history. Do you think that that's the way potentially we try and get more young Maori into the sport, is to think about the international opportunities that exist? - Yeah. And the women's game is growing every day as well and there are a lot of opportunities to go overseas. But I think a lot of people don't know about these pathways that we can take and there's so much that we can do. And I think, hopefully, I can, kind of, open the eyes to some of these people that, yeah, you can go overseas, you can play professionally, you can go to America for college. There's a lot of different pathways you can take and it's super exciting and it's definitely possible to get to this` to this platform. - What do you think that's gonna be like for you on July 20? And you walk out and play against Norway. You know, the national anthem. What do you think that's gonna` I mean, have you thought about it? - Yeah, no, I definitely have. Like, I think, even you saying the national anthem now, I think that is probably the pinnacle moment for me. That's when I'm probably most proud, when I can be out, standing out on the field with the national anthem playing. I mean, you put a lot of hard work in over the years and yeah, to kind of get to that point and remember how far you have come, that your friends and your whanau are watching you. It's a very proud moment and I'm very honoured and privileged to be able to represent New Zealand. It's a feeling that never gets old. And, yeah. Just putting the fern on every single day is` Yeah. Really a proud moment. - And it seems to me there may be a touch of the gods happening with you, cos timing wise, you just graduated. (LAUGHS) - I did. Yeah. It's been a big year. - How long did that take, by the way? - Yeah, so, I started in 2017, so I did part time for about six years. So I just graduated with a Bachelor of Sports Management from Massey University. So, yeah. Kind of just chipped away at it over the years. And so I was playing overseas for quite a number of years now and just did that online while I was playing. And, yeah. It was great. It's always good to have something to fall back on cos I'm not going to be I'll play football forever. So it's always good to have that pathway once I retire from this game. So, yeah. No. Definitely happy to be done with the studies now and focus on the World Cup. - Just seems to me, you know, degree` - Yeah. - Got that out of the way. Right. Now, World Cup now. Opening game, tick. Get out of the pool, tick. And then, who knows? - Yep. Who knows from there? Yep. - So, what's your own goal then, just to sum up? Ultimately, where do you think you and the team will end up in the World Cup? - We've been talking about this a lot with the team. Our goal is to win at least one game in the pool stage and then make it out of the group. So, we've never won a game at a World Cup before. We've never made it out of this group. So, our home World Cup is the perfect opportunity to make history. Yeah. We're gunning for it. We really want to do this. There's never gonna be an opportunity to play at home ever again at a FIFA Women's World Cup. So this is the time to do it. So we're gonna do everything we can to make this possible. - I just think, you know, all these people with poi... - Yeah. - ... at their ground, making all that noise. I think it's gonna to be amazing. Paige, thank you very much. - No, thank you. - We wish you all the very best. - Awesome, thank you so much. - Go Paige Satchell and go the Football Ferns. E haere ake nei I ta tatou hui! Coming up on The Hui next week ` It's brutal, it's bloody, it's MMA. But the new Maori in the MMA scene says it's not all about muscles. - It's a lot more than just being violent. I definitely used to use my aggression, like, a lot, to win fights and now I only use my intellect. - Very few make it to the top. - 5% will make it to the top. Maybe less. And that 5% to make some real decent money is probably the 1%. - And how confident are you? - I'm the 1% of the 1%. - Aaron Tau, aiming to take his mataora to the UFC. (DRAMATIC MUSIC) That'll be a mean hui too, next week. You'll find links to our stories on our Facebook and Twitter accounts and on YouTube or at newshub.co.nz. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 - Ko te reo te take. - Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui i tautoko.