(ELECTRONIC THEME MUSIC) - Tonight on Sunday ` the unlikely partnership trying to bring life back to the land... - Those lands are just gonna sit there for another 20, 30 or 40 years. You get heartbroken, but you just try keep going. - ...a controversial fix... - You say carbon farming to some people, and it is like a red flag. - Pine has been applied in certain areas where it shouldn't. - ...and the German billionaire bankrolling the transformation... - New Zealand's been very kind to me. It's a nice way of giving something back. - Hi, my name is Stockton Rush. I'm the CEO and founder of OceanGate. Let's take a look at Titan. - I think Stockton was designing a mouse trap for billionaires. - And inside the Titan tragedy... - You know, I've broken some rules to make this. - ...with the Kiwi who tried to raise the alarm. - They were diving in something which really was a ticking time bomb. That's why we tried so hard to prevent it. - Plus ` when the pursuit of science hurts like hell. - Oh. Ah. - You right there? - There he is. You know it's gonna hurt. And then you test it and you find out something new and it supersedes that. And it's a fantastic feeling. - You're the embodiment of no pain, no gain. - Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 - Kia ora. I'm Miriama Kamo. Forestry, pine versus natives, slash, carbon credits. Right now, the humble tree has become one of the most contentious issues of our time. But ngahere ` or forests ` can be a big earner, particularly for Maori, whose whenua is often remote, rugged and unsuited to much else. As the government reviews the troubled Emissions Trading Scheme, Tania Page visits a whanau who are transforming their land with the help of a surprising partner ` an ultra-rich German investor. (POIGNANT AMBIENT MUSIC) - As far as the eye can see, right around us, all Maori land. 20-odd hectares, I think, is in this block here. - Two men from very different worlds ` - You keep battling away. You keep trying. And then you get heartbroken. (PIERCING WHISTLE) - ...one farming on whanau land... (PIERCING WHISTLE) ...the other, a globetrotting, mega-rich investor... - I'm not a billionaire. I mean, also... Also depends on what currency. - (CHUCKLES) - And if we still had the lira, I would be. - You might have 3 or 4 different types... - ...brought together by an ambitious tree-planting venture splitting opinion. - The trees are the enabler to get to where you wanna get to. - I worry about pine being planted anywhere. (GENTLE PIANO MUSIC) - Jerusalem on the Whanganui River. - It's an invisible wairua. It's an unbroken sort of legacy to us as a people of Ngati Hau. - The wairua, spirit or soul Ron Hough speaks of connects him to this place and the surrounding whenua. - It's really deep for me. Like, I'm a fifth generation now. - Tupuna who welcomed the Sisters of Compassion ` a Catholic order that left an indelible mark on these misty hills. - It's been part of our whanau and hapu since the late 1800s. - The church brings in a few tourist dollars, but mostly kunekune shuffle through. For 30 years, Ron struggled to make a living off the whenua this far up the Whanganui River. - I took over from my mother, and it was pretty hard. I inherited a debt, and it just took the toll over time. - Unable to get a bank loan because of the multiple ownership of Maori land, the gorse took over. How many people would you say would have a stake or a share in this whenua? - In the area that we're talking about now, oh, probably 250ha, maybe 300ha. I'm taking a real good stab at this. Probably 7000 people. - (EXCLAIMS) - Yeah. - Yeah. Out of all the land in Aotearoa, only 6% is Maori land, of which 20% is considered productive. - This is the most erodible and marginal land. - Blair Jamieson ` Te Rarawa and Ngapuhi. He knows what it's like to lose land. - I actually grew up with a family in aquaculture. - But it was agriculture that Blair made a career out of when he finished a Bachelor of Commerce. - And then ended up becoming a regional manager for Maori agribusiness at the MPI. - While at the Ministry of Primary Industries, Blair met Ron six years ago. - So, we turn up to a lot of places around the country, and it's two times over your head and gorse. - It wasn't a great start. He had to apologise for a project falling over. - We had to come up and say, 'Sorry, the government's changed its mind.' - Oh, look. I'm used to it. (CHUCKLES) You know, you keep battling away, you keep trying. Um... And then you get heartbroken, but you just try to keep going. - 'Blair wanted to make it right, 'so over months, his team pulled together several strands of government funding, 'getting a grant for Ron's first brand new tractor.' So, when the tractor rolled up over hill (CHUCKLES)... - (CHUCKLES) Yeah. Well, yeah. - ...what did you think? - Yeah, well. (STAMMERS) We were all blown away. You know, it's, like, to go and touch it, try and jump in and see if you can drive it. (CHUCKLES) - Make sure it works. (BOTH CHUCKLE) - But, you know, that's it. It really gave us hope and real hope to do something. - You might have to go a bit close. - OK. - But the complex funding approach just didn't cut it for Blair. He decided to look at other opportunities like carbon farming with exotics and natives for the Emissions Trading Scheme ` or ETS. Why do you think carbon farming is a good idea for Maori? - ...and when we look at Maori, it's very marginal. Half the time it can't be farmed or it's very unproductive. And so this actually provides landowners with an option, or actually an opportunity, to do something meaningful. - But is carbon farming, particularly with pine, something meaningful? In Gisborne and Tairawhiti, pine plantations are tainted. - I think even those working in forestry feel a bit beaten up in the wake of these disasters, with slash and soil erosion. So everybody would like to see something better. And we're in the process, I hope, of working out what that would be. - Manu Caddie lives across, on the East Coast. - ...not only having on our waterways, but ultimately having an effect on us. - He helped form Te Weu Charitable Trust to look at sustainable land use on the coast even before Cyclone Gabrielle ripped through the region. Beyond forestry, he's also wary of the latest use of pine. - I worry about pine being planted anywhere if the basis for that is carbon income. Indigenous forests will sequester a lot more carbon for a lot longer than short-lived, shallow-rooting pine trees. - The social licence isn't there the way that it used to be. And I think a lot of people have seen that pine has been applied in certain areas where it shouldn't. We need to exclude certain areas from production forestry. - Blair reckons in Whanganui, some pine can work. - We've got three different species that are good for both honey` - With that idea in his head, he went looking for investors. - I reached out on LinkedIn, made a comment on something, and within two minutes, had response, and I'm been connected to some pretty amazing people, which just blew my mind. These are poplar polls put in the ground last year. - Among them, mega-rich investor Hans Albrecht. - Well, it's, kind of, the Lord put us here because we came to sail on our boat. - His boat ` the luxury yacht Aschanti. He and his wife were on board the 35m yacht at Great Barrier Island when they were caught up in New Zealand's first Covid lockdown. - Had we come eight days earlier, we would have happily left the country after a very beautiful cruise to the Bay of Islands. And had we come eight days later, we wouldn't even have been able to get in any more. - Safe, stuck and always looking for opportunities. - I felt the scene was wonderful and started to invest in New Zealand of all places. (CHUCKLES) When they cut everything off and it's just sticks, how come they survive? - And it was at that point Hans met Blair and formed Tamata Hauha in 2021. - I like the way business is being done here. Your word is your contract and all that, and you adhere to it. You don't change it. You don't cheat. - The kaupapa of Tamata Hauha is to support and uplift and actually provide a vehicle for whanau. - We were the guinea pigs. (BOTH CHUCKLE) Yeah, yeah. (WHISTLE SQUEAKS) - (CALLS) - Ron decided to take a chance on Tamata Hauha. - Oh, well, you don't have to jump through too many hoops. - So, the trees are the enabler to get to where you wanna get to. It's about saying we you want to be even better at sheep and beef farming. Times are tough. But the vehicle for us will be utilising some trees to actually provide the finance and security. Hans and a Kiwi venture capital firm invested $1 million each. - Depth is 5.8. That's under the keel, right? I was obsessed with the environment because the environment was partially so dirty in Hamburg, where I grew up. (CHUCKLES) I think I was maybe 14, and I was sailing on our river. And for some reason, I fell into the river, and then the water police came and said, 'Well, now you need to go to the hospital to be seen.' I was, like, 'Why?' 'Well, because of all the diseases.' I said, 'What?!' You know, diseases in our water. It can't be. So that was` I became, kind of, environmentally obsessed and wanted to have a career in that area. Which city has that kind of playground? - He studied environmental law, medicine and business before following the advice of a Harvard professor. - 'Go do something real, make a lot of money, 'and then you do your own projects 'and you implement and you can push them through.' - The ultra-high net worth Hans founded Nordwind Capital ` a private equity firm that specialises in European tech companies. For someone with plenty of money, he hates talking about it. You've been described as a self-made billionaire to us. How would you describe yourself? - That's nonsense, you know. First of all, I don't know... (STAMMERS) I absolutely hate it. And then I was lucky to hit the right times. And I was in private equity in times where it was... you could hardly avoid to make money. I normally don't do interviews, and I... I try to do my thing and not be in the press about it. I'm doing this here only because of Tamata. So by next year, we'll have planted 10 million trees. - By the end of next year, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 'We've had people put in two or so million dollars 'before even meeting with us based on his reputation alone.' - What's that like? - Really cool. I mean, you get a bit emotional about it because, yeah, I dunno, it just kind of supercharges you as a human, and it kind of affirms what you're doing is right. - Coming up ` You say carbon farming to some people and it is like a red flag. - Mm-hm. Yeah, yeah. - ...and uncertainty over the ETS review. - Those lands are just gonna sit there for another 20, 30 or 40 years. (ENCHANTING MUSIC) - Hangi steam and mist mingle deep in the heart of Ngati Hau territory. (WOMAN CALLS KARANGA) Ron Hough's whanau welcoming a group of wealthy investors who they've partnered with to make a living off their Maori land. - Building relationships is like having a thousand cups of tea. - (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) And then there's trust too. We've gotta have trust in the people they're working with. - It's mega-rich Hans Ulbricht's first time at this carbon farming project. - Wealthy people, you know, seem to have this different sort of aura about them, but he was just really down to earth. That's what really captured me. - So, how big are they gonna be in the year? What do you think? - How the model works ` in theory, a win-win for everyone. The company pays for the planting ` halving the profit with whanau through the ETS as the trees sequester carbon, providing support to help manage the forest. They can plant a combination of exotics and natives. Why not just plant natives? - Um, there's a lot of reasons. Sometimes it can cost nearly 10 times more to establish a native. - But it's not just cost. Pines grow faster, and although there are sceptics, Blair says, spaced correctly, exotics can create a shelter for natives to grow underneath. - People might not like me saying it, but an exotic can do that far quicker than a native. - Creating a combination of income sources ` carbon credits, oil from eucalyptus, honey from Manuka. What are you planting here today? - Today... So, we're planning paulownia, which is this tree here. It's a six month` - This big stick in the ground. - Yeah. 6-month-old, so it's, um` - Six months?! - Yeah, yeah. - That seems really quick. - Yeah, well, it's the quickest. And you got guys who are dairy farming underneath them. - Yeah. - Doing riparian planting with them and a whole lot of different stuff. - You say carbon farming to some people, and it is like a red flag. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Immediately. - Gobbling up land that should be` - 'Oh, you're planting farmland. 'You're planting farmland. You're spreading pines. 'You're ruining biodiversity. You're not considering the future.' All the different` You know, there's about five or six different things that you all get branded with straight away. - I live in a house that was made with pine timber, and I think it's got its place. - But Manu Caddie doesn't think that place is everywhere, perhaps not even in mixed plantings. - I think the promises around transition to natives is something that really needs to be interrogated. What seems to be a consensus is that regardless, it will be quite an expensive process. - Which other areas are you gonna plant? - Mainly right all the way down through there. - Yeah, yeah. - Right down through the bottom. - Uh-huh. - Over the hill, yeah, there's about 20-odd hectares, I think, is in this block here. - It's the first day Blair's company is planting on Ron's whanau land for the ETS. - They seem to be going at an awful speed. - I think they did about maybe 4000 this morning. - 4000 trees?! - Yeah. Yeah. - Wow. Amazing, huh? - No mean feat considering how many people belong here. You must be a skilled negotiator, Ron. (CHUCKLES) How did you get all your cousins and aunties and uncles and` I mean, how did you make that happen? - I think it's just talking to the right people within the different families. Once you've got a sight and vision, you know... You've gotta have people that can dream too, I think. And you know, some of the cousins and the nephews, they have that. It's, like, our people have gotta see it. They've got to touch it. - The ETS is a market where most polluting industries buy carbon credits from forest owners to emit. Over time, the number of carbon credits available in the market should reduce, driving up the price of each credit, encouraging companies to innovate so they pollute less. But the Climate Commission says it's not working well enough, as it's still cheaper for industry to buy credits from mostly new exotic tree plantings rather than cut emissions. Last month the government announced it's reviewing the ETS. - We got stuff back from settlement on the provision that ETS would be there. And yeah, it's now just taking away the opportunity from people like Ron and their whanau. - But it's got to change if it's not working properly. - Well, the ETS is doing everything it's designed to do. It's just every time they interfere with it, there's unintended consequences. - What I'm hoping we'll see out of the ETS review is acknowledgement of the risk that exists if we plant too many pine, and that we just can't plant our way to a lower carbon economy, that we're going to need to urgently reduce our emissions and finding ways within that ETS to drive that change. - What's the planting rate per hectare? - It really depends. Like, we've got guys who will want them at 800. - Ron's got his eye on lots of natives for the next round of planting. - I'm a native, and I like natives. - Yeah. (BOTH CHUCKLE) - As simple and plain as that. I feel that the long-term life of a tree is, you know, my moko, my grandchildren can actually see the, you know, yeah, the legacy of our people through those trees, through those rakau. - Even though for some carbon farming and the ETS are contentious, Ron doesn't want to go back to how it was before. - Those lands are just gonna sit there for another 20, 30 or 40 years before anyone decides to do anything with it. Yeah. You know, just` Yeah, it's a hopeless sort of case. - Back at Jerusalem... - We've named it Te Ao, which means 'a new day' for all of us. - Hans has been warmly embraced by the people here, and now he's a New Zealand citizen under the investor category. Hans. - Thank you very much, and it will be displayed` Wait. (GENTLE CHUCKLES) Thank you very much. - You're welcome. - It's been a very, very moving experience here. I always said in Germany, 'Proud to be part-time Kiwi.' - (CHUCKLES) - I invested a lot more than I'd be required to on the under the Investor Residency Scheme. A lot more. - And Blair is thinking laterally about what the ETS review could mean for the young company. - We're diversifying into solar farming these days, and it's part of our story of our business is that, you know, at one end of the spectrum, we are doing the removals with forestry, on the other end, we're stopping emissions from happening by providing alternative forms of energy. So you know, it's all positive stuff, and we frame it up in a good way. But we'll continue to be here. - I guess, a win-win situation will be the government coming up with policy that will fund and incentivise the funding of diverse permanent indigenous forest on erosion-prone land, particularly, but also provide for pine to grow in places that pine is fine to be grown in. (WHANAU SINGS IN TE REO MAORI) - I'm hoping that my whanau in the back block there actually flourish and are able to get income, which they've never had for nearly 30 years. It's uplifted me, my sons and my mokos now. - So you feel proud? - Oh, yeah. That's why I like sitting up here. Yeah. On my whenua. Look at it. Paradise. - WHANAU: # ...maunga. # - Well, right now the ETS allows for unlimited carbon farming. The review will consider this as the Climate Change Commission is warning a potential oversupply of trees could lead to a market crash. Climate Change Minister James Shaw will be on Breakfast tomorrow morning to discuss all this. And for more on the story, head to 1news.co.nz. E whai ake nei ` the explorer behind the tragic Titan sub tragedy. Did he ignore the risks? - Who was the last person to murder two billionaires and have them pay for the privilege? - And the Kiwi who tried to stop it. - If someone raised a safety concern, they were silenced. - Hoki mai ano. The aim was to see the iconic Titanic wreck. They paid hundreds of thousands to do it, but the passengers on board the Titan submersible never came home. The brutal reality ` this was not an adventure. Instead, much like the Titanic, it was a disaster waiting to happen. Tonight, Amelia Adams pieces together what went wrong and meets the Kiwi explorer who raised the alarm. - People are so enthralled with Titanic that there are three words in the English language that are known throughout the planet, and that's Coca-Cola, God and Titanic. - If the Titanic was the ultimate lesson in human hubris, the debacle of the submersible ` known as Titan ` is a tragic epilogue. Five men sealed inside the sub, operated by OceanGate's maverick CEO Stockton Rush ` a man determined to test the limits of human ambition. - They were diving in something which really was a ticking time bomb. - So, you were not surprised? - No. I can't say that from a technical standpoint, I was surprised. That's why we tried so hard to prevent it. - Rob McCallum knows better than most the allure of the deep. A world leader in extreme submersible operations, he's headed up multiple expeditions to the Titanic site. What do you think it is about the Titanic? Is it the romance? Is it the tragedy that humanity is endlessly obsessed with? - Yes, I think it's a turning point in maritime history. Here was a machine, one of the largest ever built, the fastest ever built, the sort of pride and joy of human engineering, and Mother Nature changed our attitude, and in a single blow, told us that we're not the masters of the universe. Nature is very much in control. - Hi, my name is Stockton Rush. I'm the CEO and founder of OceanGate. Let's take a look at Titan. - The Titan was an SUV-sized submersible. On the 18th of June, it began its third descent to visit the Titanic wreck. But just one hour and 45 minutes later, the crew lost communications with its mothership. On board was legendary Titanic expert Paul-Henri Nargeolet; billionaire explorer Hamish Harding; Pakistani businessman Shahzada Dawood and his teenage son Suleman; and OceanGate's boss Stockton Rush. - Taking a completely new approach to the sub design, and it's all run with this game controller and these touch screens. - I think Stockton was designing a mousetrap for billionaires. - Wow. - Yeah. - From the shores of Honduras, tourist submarine operator Karl Stanley swings between grief and anger. Stockton Rush had been a friend. Back in 2019, Karl was one of the first to set foot inside the doomed Titan on a test dive in the Bahamas. - I would say every three to four minutes, there was... loud... gunshot-like noises. It's a heck of a sound to hear when you're that far under the ocean in a craft that has only been down that deep once before. - Karl was convinced those noises were the carbon fibre hull slowly cracking, and he immediately raised his concerns with Stockton Rush in a series of heated calls and emails, writing... You've been building deep sea submersibles since you were a teenager. You've got thousands of hours experience in piloting these craft. In your expert opinion, what was the fatal flaw of the Titan? - There's no doubt in my mind that it was the carbon fibre tube that was the mechanical part that failed. - Titan was the only commercial submersible in the world with a hull made from carbon fibre composite. - Carbon fibre is coated with rhino liner, which is, sort of, what the military use. It stops water penetration. - That's because the rest of the industry considers the lightweight material incapable of withstanding extreme deep sea pressure. But for Stockton Rush, the extra space meant he could fit more passengers on board. - You know, I've broken some rules to make this. I think that I've broken them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon fibre and titanium. There's a rule you don't do that. Well, I did. It's picking the rules that you break that are the ones that will add value to others and add value to society. - They were so proud of flaunting the accepted norms. And if you're going to flaunt an accepted norm, you really need to know what you're doing. And I wasn't convinced that that level of expertise was there. - Rob McCallum worked with OceanGate as a consultant early on, but was alarmed by the company's experimental approach. - Join the crew of the Titanic survey expedition. - And when Stockton Rush announced his plan to take passengers to dive the Titanic in an unclassified submersible, Rob quit. Stockton Rush once said, 'If you're not breaking things, you're not innovative.' Is there truth to that in your industry, or is that just reckless? - Completely reckless. I mean, it's great fun breaking world records. I mean, I just love it. But they don't count if everybody doesn't make it home. - Rob wasn't alone in his concerns. By 2018, the submersible community had become so distressed by Stockton Rush's apparent disregard for safety standards that three dozen industry experts wrote to OceanGate warning catastrophe was looming unless changes were made. - This is our five-man submersible. - That same year, the company's chief pilot, David Lochridge, was fired and sued for raising a long list of safety concerns. - If someone raised a safety concern, as the chief pilot did, they were not only not listened to, they were silenced. That is such a toxic culture when it comes to safety. - The Titan operated in lawless international waters. - Copy that. - OceanGate called passengers mission specialists, and while some on board were indeed deep sea experts, others were thrill-seeking tourists. - First time in a submarine. It looks really cool in here too. - Customers signed a company waiver before boarding the Titan. It mentions the possibility of death at least eight times. - The game changes when you put paying passengers in there because you can't do that unless there is consent and people can't consent to something that they don't really understand. - And the ocean doesn't care if you're a millionaire. - No. I mean, the pressure at 4000m is unrelenting and unforgiving. I mean, you know, you don't get wounded at 4000m. You come home in one piece or you don't come home at all. - We will drift down. We will hit the bottom. We'll have communications. - You still pumping? - Yeah. - What are you at, pressure-wise? - If Rob McCallum paints Stockton Rush as reckless in his ambition, blinded by his passion, Karl Stanley goes a step further ` insisting Rush must have known it could only end like this. So, you're saying he had a death wish? - The only question in my mind, the only question is when? He was risking his life and his customers' lives to go down in history. He's more famous now than anything else he would have ever done. - It's a stunning allegation, but next, OceanGate insists what many saw as reckless was, in fact, necessary. - I feel like, as co-founder, I do have to stand up for the fact that I feel that what we were doing was right. - Well, there must have been something wrong with it, cos five people are dead. - Hey, uh,... (CLEARS THROAT) Jimmy, you're riding with Rodney. - Far out. Big Rod, eh? - Everyone gets Rodneyed on their first day. - Hop in, mate. Don't worry about these bumholes! - (CHUCKLES) - Nah, they're good guys. (INDICATOR TICKS) Yeah, the guys always joke that I like to be on site before they've even left the base. But, you know, I like to get there early, have a muffin, relax. You like muffins? (ENGINE REVS) Oh, I just got a new V8 ` not a bogey-green one, though. (BOTH CHUCKLE) Hey, let's take the scenic route, eh? It's longer, but I make it fun. That's why the guys, they do 'paper scissors rock' to see who comes with me. - Oh, cos no one wants to go with that other dude you guys work with, eh ` the one we were having a crack at this morning? - Who, Grubby Aaron? - Oh, nah, you know, the guy that's always gunning it. No one wants to ride with him. Yeah! Oh, man, he, um` he's got a V8 too. - Racing to find the missing dive vessel that is... - It was the macabre countdown the world couldn't turn away from... - At this point, it could be anywhere from about 54 to 80 hours of oxygen left. - ...as we waited and wondered about the fate of those on board the missing Titan submersible. - Repeated banging has been picked up on sonar equipment. - Headed for the magnificent ghostly remains of the Titanic. - An expert we spoke to says that window of opportunity is quickly closing. - After an exhaustive five-day search... - I offer my deepest condolences. - ...the US Coast Guard declared what many industry insiders, like Rob McCallum, had already surmised. The sub had suffered a catastrophic implosion. - The whole volume of the submersible collapses in about two milliseconds. And it takes 25 milliseconds for the human brain to detect a threat. So it's not so much that you die. It's that you cease to exist. It's almost the perfect end. - Attention and scrutiny quickly turned to the Titan's pilot, OceanGate co-founder and CEO Stockton Rush, who, for years, brushed aside red flags raised by colleagues and passengers about the safety of Titan. Guillermo Sohnlein knew him better than most. - Very intelligent. Very funny guy. I think most people don't realise what a comedian he actually was. But very capable engineer. Very passionate about oceans and ocean exploration. - The friends and business partners cofounded OceanGate in 2009 with a shared vision. - The ocean is just so big and we know so little about it. And so for us, it was really about giving humanity access to these assets that could take everybody down into the ocean. - Guillermo left the company 10 years ago, but remains a shareholder and a loyal supporter. He now finds himself in the awkward position of defending the man responsible for the only submersible implosion in history. Was Stockton Rush a reckless villain or was he an innovator and explorer, a rule breaker with a vision? - I think the term 'reckless' is not something I would ever associate with Stockton or with OceanGate, at least while I was there. It's almost the exact opposite of that. He's been kind of portrayed as this risk taker maverick who would just disregard safety for the sake of innovation itself. But that is not the person that I knew. He was very risk averse. And in the 3� years that he and I worked together, I never saw him take unnecessary risks. - Isn't taking paying passengers on an unclassed sub about which there have been several safety warnings down to the Titanic an unnecessary risk? - I know two of the other four crew members that were lost would cringe if they were being labelled as tourists or passengers. They considered themselves explorers. They considered themselves part of the crew. They considered that their financial investment was going toward scientific research and exploration of the oceans. - But when you have people who had heard cracking noises in the Titan, people who are engineers saying these materials aren't appropriate, your testing is inappropriate, surely that points to a huge safety risk. - Well, the popping noise is expected in carbon fibre hulls. That was in prior hulls, not in the one that dove a couple of weeks ago. Things were fixed. So I think it's still premature to even address these kinds of questions. - Well, there must have been something wrong with it cos five people are dead. - Well, we don't know exactly what happened. It could have been a number of different things that caused the implosion. - The way Guillermo sees it, others in the industry, through competitiveness or perhaps lack of foresight, had been trying to stifle OceanGate's innovative plans for years. - I do share the concerns about the risks that were taken, but I try taking a longer-term view of everything. - But you can say that if he had have stopped and heeded some of the warnings, he may still be alive today? - Potentially. If he had done nothing, he and the crew members may still be alive. But then again, humanity may still be stuck not knowing anything about the world's oceans. - As the families of those killed grieve, last week OceanGate suspended all exploration and commercial operations. While the watery graves of the Titanic and the Titan are now forever tragically entwined, it's likely deep sea tourism will recover from this catastrophic setback. But Rob McCallum hopes the Titan's voyage will be the last of its kind. - It's a big ocean out there. There are over a million shipwrecks. I would like to think that exploring wrecks and exploring the deep ocean is something that's going to continue. But I think in terms of Titanic, we probably have all the material that's ever going to be needed. She's been the subject of many books, countless movies and documentaries. Maybe it's time to bid her adieu. - Well, theories about exactly what went wrong everywhere. But Canada's Transport Safety Board is now conducting a formal investigation. E haere ake nei ` this is quite something. The scientists putting their own bodies on the line to save lives. - If you can find new chemicals that cause pain... Ooh. ...these are gonna tell you new things about your pain pathways. - I guess I've gotta give this a go. I'm a little bit scared here, Sam. - Yeah, you should be. - (CHUCKLES) OK. - Nau mai ano. You're about to meet a group of scientists who deliberately seek out dangerous spiders, scorpions and centipedes and then let them attack. But there is a method to the madness. Their aim is to understand the pain of the stings and use that information to develop new medicines. But as Tom Steinfort finds out, what you don't know really can hurt you. (ADVENTUROUS MUSIC) - This spectacular place is smack bang in the middle of the Northern Territory ` a part of the world that isn't just a drawcard for tourists, but also scientists looking for medical miracles. Sam. - Hey. - Good to meet you. - You too. - So, this is your research lab? - It is. - Dr Sam Robinson is a bio-pharmacologist. In short, that means he studies animal and plant toxins with the hope of discovering new, life-changing medicines, and his experiments are unorthodox, to say the least. He's basically a human lab rat who gets stung by potentially deadly bugs all in the name of research. You're the embodiment of no pain, no gain. - Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Ooh. (CHUCKLES) 'And it's that anticipation. It's just awful. 'Building up to that, you know, it's gonna hurt. 'And then you test it and you find out something new, 'and it supersedes that, and it's a fantastic feeling.' (COUNTRY MUSIC) - When it comes to medical ethics, Sam literally can't even ask people to cop these potent venoms. So that means if he wants to know what they do, the only way to find out is to roll up his own sleeve. What's the most painful thing you've copped so far? - I was recently in South America and collected some wasps. It's, like, I liken it to imagine having, sort of, your flesh peeled back on your finger and then a pair of pliers just gripping the bone and squeezing. And, you know, it's not over in 10 minutes. This was going on for three or four hours. And you're getting to the point where you're thinking, you know, what if this gets worse, you know? (CHUCKLES) - There is method to the madness here. In the world of pharmacology, venom and toxins are a treasure trove of new possibilities, helping create the next generation of game-changing medicines. In fact, it's more than likely that a drug derived from venom has saved the life of someone you know. Your secret medicine, I guess, now, is not so secret. It's from a snake. - Exactly right. It definitely is from a snake. So, yeah, I'm petrified of them. If I saw one, I'd be gone. But look, I need to thank them at the end of the day. - Emma Wilson is serious about her health, and in 2015, was bitten by the bodybuilding bug. She was preparing for the World Championships when that dream came to an abrupt halt because she felt a pain in her chest. - I went to bed, and then I got up and something was going on. I knew I needed medical attention. Don't know what it was. Just something come over. Got myself to the hospital, and the long story out of it, I was actually having a heart attack without me realising what was going on. - The grandmother of two would have died if it wasn't for the work of doctors, and now is kept alive by a class of medication called ACE inhibitors, derived from the venom of the Brazil viper. It's used to treat high blood pressure, heart failure and often prescribed following heart attacks. - If it wasn't for them, then technically, I wouldn't be here, cos I need that medication to keep my cholesterol down. - To understand venom and the kind of medical potential locked inside it, Dr Sam needs specimens, and lots of them. So when you get bitten, what are you actually looking for? - You know, you can liken it to something like wine tasting, where you get a feel for a different wine, you know, and you can describe that differently. You can do exactly the same with stings. - So, what's this one here? - So, what you'll find under the bark of some trees are these assassin bugs, and they can give you a pretty painful sting. - This sounds like you're talking from experience. - Yeah, absolutely. - The assassin bug is significant because Sam's team has harnessed its powers for good, hoping to turn its venom into a potent insecticide that'll reduce our dependency on chemicals in farming. All right. Well, if it's not gonna kill me, I guess as part of my commitment to figuring out how your job works, I guess I gotta give this a go. - Grab it with your finger and your thumb and it should sting you. - Oh, Jeez. I'm a little bit scared here, Sam. - Well, you should be. - (CHUCKLES) OK. 'And so, just how painful is it?' Oh, ah. Ah! 'Well...' - (CHUCKLES) - So, this is your day job? Jeez. - (CHUCKLES) - 'Excuse the embarrassing arm-flapping, but nothing can prepare you for this pain. 'Hopefully my reaction shows you...' Oh. It comes in waves. '...this seriously hurts.' You choose to do this? - (CHUCKLES) - (GRUNTS) Oh. Ah. Ah. Ah. Ah. Ah. Oh. There's a second wave. Putting myself up as a scientific guinea pig will give Sam vital insights into how venom works. - So, it'll last about five, 10 minutes. - Oh, good. - Yeah. - Not long now. - Pain is common. Different types of pain are really common. There can be side effects from injuries or medication, all sorts of things. And at the moment, medicine doesn't have the tools to deal with it. We rely a huge amount on opioids ` so things like morphine and codeine. But these have massive problems outside of abuse as well. So we need alternatives. So the goal really here is if you can find new chemicals that cause pain, these are gonna tell you new things about your pain pathways. And we can use that information to develop painkillers. And we've done that with some of the work that I've been doing. - After a couple of days in the desert we've off to the other side of the country to a very different environment ` the rainforests of southeast Queensland. Here we met up with Dr Sam Robinson's colleague Professor Irina Vetter. She's the director of the Centre for Pain Research at the University of Queensland, and we're on the hunt for one of the most dangerous trees on the planet ` the gympie-gympie, aka the suicide tree. Covered in spines. Wow. 'These aficionados rate it as the third most painful sting in all of Australia. 'But yep, you guessed it, this tree is also a potential lifesaver.' You love this tree, don't you? - I do love this tree. Yes. - Why? - The gympie-gympie activates your pain-sensing nerves in a way that we've never seen before, and we've discovered a new pain gene. Of course, when you discover a pain gene that when you activate it, you cause pain, then the flipside is if you block it, we might be able to inhibit pain, and that's really important for people with chronic pain. - Back at the lab at the University of Queensland, Irina can show why the gympie-gympie sting research is so important. The hope is that it will one day provide critical pain relief for cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. The pain that a lot of chemo patients suffer is so bad that they end up pulling out of the treatment. So if you can help them deal with that pain, you could end up helping save lives. - Yeah, absolutely. At the moment, we basically have nothing to treat this. You can either reduce the dose off the chemo. That's obviously not good for your cancer. You can just stop the treatment altogether. And that's, you know, very detrimental. So being able to prevent these side effects and treat them effectively is really, really important. - And you think you're heading in that direction? - I know we're heading in that direction. (CHUCKLES) - In a medical revolution, our deadly backyard has become a saviour, and sting-loving researchers like Dr Sam Robinson reckon that the untapped potential of our incredible biological diversity could be the future of medicine. - A lot of people don't realise that most of our drugs are either directly derived or actually inspired from a natural source. So in the long run, hopefully we're identifying a whole library of new targets and identify whole new classes of drugs. - This is a gold mine out here. - Yeah. - Yeah. Well, sadly, these teams are in a race against time as biodiversity losses increase around the world. Pollution, the way we use land and climate change are threatening an estimated 4000 species with extinction here in Aotearoa alone. Well, that's our show for tonight. We'd love to hear from you on social media. And if you have a story you think we should investigate, our email is Sunday at TVNZ.co.nz. And if you missed anything, you can catch up on tonight's stories and our entire show at TVNZ+.