CAPTIONS BY ALEX WALKER AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A ` AS TOGETHER, WE ROUND OUT THE HOTTEST MONTH IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILISATION. WE'VE GOT SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES ALL ACROSS THE PLANET THAT ARE JUST EXTREMELY HIGH. THE EARTH IS EXTREMELY SUNBURNED AT THE MOMENT. THEN ` WE MIGHT NOT LIKE TO ADMIT IT, BUT MOST OF US ARE A LITTLE BIT SHALLOW WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICAL PREFERENCES. IT HELPS GET ATTENTION, SO THEN IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO AT LEAST NOTICE WHAT YOU SAY ` OF COURSE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LIKE IT. BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH HOUSING. IT WAS ONE OF THE DEFINING ISSUES OF THE 2017 ELECTION. AFTER SIX YEARS IN GOVERNMENT, LABOUR HAS SUBSTANTIALLY INCREASED THE DEVELOPMENT AND SUPPLY OF SOCIAL HOUSING, BUT MANY KAINGA ORA PROJECTS STILL FACE SIGNIFICANT COMMUNITY OPPOSITION. EARLIER THIS WEEK, A 48-HOME DEVELOPMENT IN EAST TAMAKI WENT UP IN FLAMES. I ASKED HOUSING MINISTER MEGAN WOODS ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE FIRE. WELL, IT WILL BE 48 FEWER HOMES. BUT WHEN WE PUT THIS AGAINST THE BUILD THAT WE ARE DOING, WELL, THE LOSS OF ANY HOME OUT OF OUR PIPELINE IS NOT SOMETHING I CELEBRATE. I KNOW THAT WE HAVE GOT A REALLY STRONG PIPELINE OF DELIVERY COMING THROUGH IN AUCKLAND. IT IS BOTH TRAGIC AND FRUSTRATING, THOUGH, THAT WE KNOW THERE IS SUCH A NEED FOR THESE HOMES THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE FOR FAMILIES TO MOVE INTO. THE BLAZE IS BEING TREATED AS SUSPICIOUS BY FIRE AND EMERGENCY. AND I KNOW THIS DEVELOPMENT IN PARTICULAR WAS SUBJECT TO INTENSE OPPOSITION FROM SOME RESIDENTS IN THE AREA. DO YOU SEE ANY CONNECTION THERE? LOOK, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S AN ACTIVE INVESTIGATION UNDERWAY. THAT WOULDN'T BE APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO COMMENT. BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT I THINK THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT WE ARE SEEING COMMUNITIES BEING FUELLED BY SOME POLITICAL RHETORIC AROUND OPPOSING KAINGA ORA DEVELOPMENTS. I THINK WITHIN THE OPPOSITION, WE'VE GOT ABOUT SIX MPS THAT ACTIVELY HAVE OPPOSED KO DEVELOPMENTS THAT ACTIVELY HAVE OPPOSED K.O. DEVELOPMENTS GOING INTO THEIR ELECTORATES. I THINK THAT IF ALL OF US IN PARLIAMENT WHO PURPORT TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT SOLVING A HOUSING CRISIS, IT'S REALLY NEEDED AS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, THAT WE NEED TO BUILD HOUSES IN ORDER TO SOLVE A HOUSING CRISIS. YOU THINK THAT THE OPPOSITION TO THESE DEVELOPMENTS IS POLITICAL, IS BEING DRIVEN BY POLITICAL MOTIVES? OH, SOME. AND IN SOME CASES WE SEE THE MPS GET VERY INVOLVED IN THE OPPOSITION TO DEVELOPMENTS, OPPOSITION MPS. HOW MUCH IS BEING` IS DRIVEN BY POLITICAL OPPOSITION? I THINK SOME OF IT MIGHT NOT START WITH MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT, BUT THEN THEY SEE THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN` A LOCAL ISSUE THAT THEY CAN JUMP INTO. BUT SOMETIMES, I MEAN, I'VE HAD OPPOSITION TO DEVELOPMENTS HERE IN MY OWN ELECTORATE, BUT SOMETIMES YOUR JOB IS ACTUALLY TO SHOW LEADERSHIP, AND TO TALK TO COMMUNITIES ABOUT WHY IT IS THAT WE NEED THOSE HOMES AND ACTUALLY SEEK TO ALLAY THE FEARS, NOT FUEL THEM. WHAT ARE THE GREATEST FEARS THAT YOU HEAR FROM COMMUNITIES? SO, SOME OF IT IS AROUND THE SIZE OF THE BUILDINGS. SO WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO BE TWO OR THREE, WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE ON A SECTION, WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO TO SUNLIGHT OF NEIGHBOURS. AND THAT IS A REALLY EASY CONVERSATION. YOU CAN SHOW PLANS, YOU CAN WORK THROUGH WITH NEIGHBOURING` WITH THE NEIGHBOURING COMMUNITY AND NEIGHBOURS, EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON. SO I THINK MAKING SURE THERE'S GOOD INFORMATION FLOWS. SOME OF IT IS BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE RHETORIC WE'RE HEARING ABOUT WHO'S MOVING INTO THE PROPERTIES. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ALWAYS TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT IS ACTUALLY, OF ALL THE TENANTS THAT WE HAVE IN OUR KAINGA ORA HOMES, WE ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER HALF OF THEM ARE CHILDREN, THAT THIS IS WHERE HALF OF, YOU KNOW, THAT HALF OF OUR TENANTS ARE KIDS FINDING A WARM, SAFE PLACE THAT THEY CAN CALL HOME. JUST GOING THROUGH SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS THAT HAVE FACED HEAVY OPPOSITION IN THE LAST YEAR; THE LIKES OF MILLWATER, BLOCKHOUSE BAY, ROTORUA, OHAKUNE, HASTINGS, PALMERSTON NORTH. THAT IS JUST A SELECTION. DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE THESE RELATIVELY LARGE-SCALE DEVELOPMENTS IN THESE COMMUNITIES HAVE ANY REASON TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE TENANTS WHO ARE GOING TO BE MOVING INTO THESE BUILDINGS? WELL, I GUESS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ALWAYS START A CONVERSATION WITH PEOPLE` AND I TAKE PEOPLE'S FEARS SERIOUSLY. I THINK THAT THEY'RE CONVERSATIONS THAT DO NEED TO BE` DO NEED TO BE WORKED THROUGH TO TEASE OUT WHAT PEOPLE'S FEARS ARE. THAT` YOU DON'T` PEOPLE MOVE INTO PROPERTIES IN YOUR STREET ALL THE TIME, WHEN THEY'RE PRIVATELY, EITHER OWNER-OCCUPIED OR RENTALS. AND THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T GET TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHO THEIR NEIGHBOUR IS GOING TO BE. BUT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY WORK THROUGH THE STATISTICS IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WE HAVE IN TERMS OF THE KAINGA ORA HOMES, THAT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, 95% OF OUR TENANTS, WE NEVER GET A COMPLAINT ABOUT. AND EXACTLY WHAT THE PROCESSES ARE, IF THERE ARE COMPLAINTS, WHAT WE CAN DO AROUND THOSE. AND I MEAN, THERE'S BEEN SOME NUMBERS THAT HAVE BEEN BANDIED AROUND IN TERMS OF THE NUMBERS OF COMPLAINTS. SOME OF THOSE ARE FOR NOT MOWING LAWNS. SOME OF THOSE ARE FOR NOT COLLECTING MAIL OUT OF THE MAILBOX. AND SOME OF THOSE ARE FOR, YOU KNOW, A NOISY LAWNMOWER OR A CAR THAT'S TOO LOUD. OF THE SERIOUS COMPLAINTS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF TENANCIES WE HAVE, THEY ARE A TINY PROPORTION, AND WE HAVE TO TAKE THOSE SERIOUSLY. AND WE DO. AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I TALK WITH KO, WITH KAINGA ORA ABOUT ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE EVERYBODY DESERVES TO FEEL SAFE IN THEIR HOME. HOW DO LARGE-SCALE DEVELOPMENTS AFFECT THE PROPERTY PRICES AROUND THEM? WELL, ACTUALLY, THERE'S SOME QUITE INTERESTING RESEARCH. THERE'S SOME RESEARCH OUT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY, WHICH I'M INTERESTED IN KNOWING A BIT MORE ABOUT, ACTUALLY, THAT ACTUALLY SHOWS THAT IT HAS AN INCREASE IN THE PROPERTY VALUE IN THE AREA. SO I THINK SOME PEOPLE JUMP` REALLY? YEAH, BECAUSE WHAT IT CAN OFTEN DO IS IT'S ABOUT UPGRADED AMENITY THAT GOES INTO THE AREA AS WELL. OFTEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS UPGRADED, ALL THOSE KIND OF THINGS` AND INTENSIFICATION, IF THAT'S GOING IN AS WELL, THAT CAN ALSO LEAD TO HIGHER PROPERTY VALUES. THE INTENSIFICATION THING IS THE CONCERN FOR MANY RESIDENTS, THOUGH, RIGHT ` AS OPPOSED TO STATE HOUSING IN THE PAST, WHEN YOU HAD A SINGLE HOUSE ON A RELATIVELY LARGE SECTION, A LOT OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS ARE MUCH MORE INTENSIVE, WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE MANY MORE PEOPLE MOVING INTO THESE BUILDINGS ONCE THEY'RE FINISHED. AND EVEN IF YOU HAVE JUST A SMALL FRACTION WHO ARE BRINGING PERHAPS ANTISOCIAL OR UNSAVOURY BEHAVIOURS TO THE COMMUNITY, THAT CAN BE QUITE AFFECTING. AND WE'RE REALLY ` WE'RE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT. SO AS WE ARE INTENSIFYING, SO IF WE LOOK AT SOME OF OUR LARGE-SCALE PROJECTS IN AUCKLAND, THAT YOU LOOK AT SORT OF A MT ROSKILL OR A NORTHCOTE, WE'RE NOT SIMPLY REDEVELOPING ALL THE LAND THAT WE HAVE, OR MANGERE` REDEVELOPING ALL THE LAND THAT WE HAVE FOR PUBLIC HOUSING; WE'RE ALSO PUTTING IN AFFORDABLE HOMES FOR HOME OWNERSHIP. WE'RE LOOKING TO BUILD THOSE MIXED COMMUNITIES, AND THEN LOOKING TO BUY LAND WHERE WE HAVEN'T HAD STATE HOUSES FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, SO THAT WE'RE NOT GROUPING EVERYTHING TOGETHER. SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WORKING THROUGH WITH COMMUNITIES AS WELL, THAT SOMETIMES THESE ARE MORE MIXED DEVELOPMENTS, THAT WE WANT THOSE COMMUNITIES. BUT JACK, WHEN YOU'RE BUILDING THE LARGEST NUMBER OF STATE HOUSES THAT ANY GOVERNMENT HAS SINCE WALTER NASH IN THE 1950S, THIS ISN'T` I THINK, WHAT WE CAN SEE, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN USED TO IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES; A STATE HOUSE BUILD PROGRAMME, BECAUSE ACTUALLY WE HAD A REDUCTION IN THE NUMBER OF STATE HOUSES IN THE DECADE PRECEDING WHEN WE WERE IN GOVERNMENT. SO TO ACTUALLY SEE MORE STATE HOUSING BEING ADDED, I GUESS IS A NEW THING FOR A NUMBER OF NEIGHBOURHOODS AND COMMUNITIES, AND SOMETHING THAT I'M REALLY AWARE THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE BRINGING COMMUNITIES WITH US, AND SPENDING THE TIME TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION. THE GOVERNMENT'S SPENDING ROUGHLY $1 MILLION A DAY ON EMERGENCY HOUSING ` HOUSING PEOPLE IN MOTELS. THE SOCIAL HOUSING WAITLIST IS CURRENTLY SITTING AT 24,000, WHICH IS SLIGHTLY DOWN FROM ITS PEAK, BUT INCLUDING A PERIOD IN WHICH NEW ZEALAND HAD ITS BORDERS SHUT. NO IMMIGRATION OTHER THAN RETURNING CITIZENS. 24,000 IS FOUR TIMES HIGHER THAN WHEN YOU CAME TO GOVERNMENT. WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE CAPACITY OF YOUR GOVERNMENT TO ACTUALLY CREATE MEANINGFUL CHANGE, THAT SIX YEARS SINCE YOU CAME TO POWER ON A PROMISE TO FIX THE HOUSING CRISIS, THE SOCIAL HOUSING LIST IS CLOSE TO THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN? YEAH, AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE FOR A MOMENT BELIEVES THAT THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CREATED IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS. WE'RE IN MY ELECTORATE` CERTAINLY THAT LIST HAS, THOUGH, RIGHT? THE LIST DEFINITELY HAS, JACK. IT'S QUADRUPLED. IT HAS QUADRUPLED. UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT. JACK, WE'RE SITTING IN MY ELECTORATE OFFICE, WHERE I SAT HERE AS AN OPPOSITION MP MEETING WITH PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T EVEN GET ON THE STATE HOUSE WAITING LIST UNDER A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THEY SIMPLY WERE DENIED ACCESS TO BE ABLE TO ENTER ON TO THAT LIST. THAT IS NOT THE CASE TODAY. SEE, THIS IS LIKE THE CRIME RATE ARGUMENT, THOUGH. IT'S ALL DOWN TO MEASUREMENT RATHER THAN ACTUAL NEED, RIGHT? NO, IT'S NOT ABOUT MEASUREMENT. YOU CAN ACTUALLY, IN TERMS OF THE` IN TERMS OF THE ABILITY TO GET ON THAT LIST, TO ACTUALLY IDENTIFY THE NEED, AND TO ACTUALLY LAY THAT OUT IN FRONT OF US. BUT THAT NUMBER IS HUGE` 24,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE WAITING FOR A STATE HOUSE. BUT I ALWAYS DO GO BACK TO THE FACT THAT PART OF FIXING THE HOUSING CRISIS, AND PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE WHO REQUIRE STATE HOUSING, IS GETTING ON AND BUILDING THEM. WE'VE BUILT 13,000. YOU'VE BUILT 13,000? NO, SORRY. WE HAVE ADDED NET ACROSS BOTH KO AND CHIPS. WE'VE ADDED 13,000 IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME. OK. LET'S BREAK DOWN THOSE NUMBERS. SO, 13,000` YOU'VE ADDED 13,000. NOW, KO IS KAINGA ORA, WHICH IS GOVERNMENT-OWNED. CHIPS ARE COMMUNITY HOUSING PROVIDERS, WHICH GETS SOME FUNDING THROUGH DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT MECHANISMS. SO, 13,000 YOU'VE ADDED. HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE REDIRECTS? NONE FOR KO. SO IT'S THE` NONE FOR KO. NO. SO, JUST SO OUR AUDIENCE IS AWARE ` A REDIRECT IS WHEN A COMMUNITY HOUSING PROVIDER ESSENTIALLY RENTS A HOUSE OFF THE PRIVATE MARKET. SO ABOUT 4500 OF THAT 13,000 ARE REDIRECTS. SO, NOT ALL REDIRECTS ARE RENTING OFF THE PRIVATE MARKET. SO YOU CAN HAVE A LOT FOR A COMMUNITY HOUSING PROVIDER, LIKE HERE IN CHRISTCHURCH, THE OTAUTAHI COMMUNITY HOUSING TRUST. IT'S WHEN THOSE HOUSES TRANSFER FROM BEING COUNCIL HOUSING INTO RECEIVING INCOME-RELATED RENT SUBSIDIES. SO THEY'RE NOT ALL RENTALS FROM THE PRIVATE MARKET. RIGHT, BUT REASONABLE TO SAY THAT A LARGE NUMBER WOULD BE, RIGHT? ACTUALLY, PROBABLY A BIG NUMBER OF THEM ARE COMING THROUGH, IN TERMS OF` SO WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE 4500 WOULD BE RENTED OFF THE PRIVATE MARKET? OH, LOOK, I DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU, IF WE HAVE A LOOK AT OCHT, WHICH IS THE OTAUTAHI COMMUNITY HOUSING TRUST, THEY'RE ALL PUBLICLY OWNED AND THEY'RE BEING TRANSFERRED, BUT HAPPY TO GET THAT NUMBER FOR YOU. THAT'S OK. BUT I MEAN, SO 13,000 NEW HOUSES IS THE NET ADD, YOU SAY. SO 4500 ARE REDIRECT, SOME OF WHICH ARE HOUSES THAT HAVE JUST BEEN RENTED OFF THE PRIVATE MARKET, SO AREN'T ADDING TO SUPPLY IN ANY WAY. 1800 ARE BUY-INS, WHICH IS WHEN KAINGA ORA JUST BUYS A HOUSE; SO YOU'RE NOT BUILDING A HOUSE. THE GOVERNMENT HAS SOLD OR DEMOLISHED 4700 HOUSES. I'M NOT ARGUING THERE HASN'T BEEN A NET INCREASE TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF SOCIAL HOUSES IN NEW ZEALAND, I THINK EVERYONE AGREES WITH THAT. AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IT'S CLEAR YOU HAVE ADDED TO THE TOTAL NUMBER. BUT WHEN YOU SAY 'WE'VE ADDED 13,000,' IT'S NOT QUITE CORRECT. NO, IT IS, JACK, BECAUSE THERE IS A NET INCREASE OF 13,000. IT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. WHERE I'D BE PLAYING GAMES WITH NUMBERS IS IF I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE GROSS NUMBERS. WE'RE VERY CAREFUL TO TAKE OUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HOW MANY WE'VE ADDED. BUT JACK, I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE RENTING, AND THE FACT THAT WE NEED THESE TO BE NEW BUILDS. AND THAT'S WHY I'VE CHANGED THE SETTINGS IN THE TIME THAT I'VE BEEN MINISTER, BOTH FOR KAINGA ORA, BUT ALSO PARTICULARLY FOR OUR COMMUNITY HOUSING PROVIDERS, TO SAY THAT ACTUALLY WE WANT A PREFERENCE ON NEW BUILDS, AND WE WANT A PREFERENCE ON OWNERSHIP OF THOSE PROPERTIES. SO UNDER THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS, THE SETTINGS WERE VERY MUCH AROUND LEASES. I VERY MUCH WANT TO SEE OUR COMMUNITY PROVIDERS' BUILDING BALANCE SHEETS. SO WE HAVE CHANGED THOSE SETTINGS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY BUILDING OUR WAY OUT OF A HOUSING CRISIS, BECAUSE THAT ULTIMATELY IS THE WAY WE FIX IT. I'M JUST GOING TO LOOK AT ONE MORE NUMBER THERE. SO YOU SAY OFTEN THAT THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT SOLD OR DEMOLISHED HOUSES. I MEAN, JUST TO BE TOTALLY CLEAR, YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS DONE THE SAME THING. 4772 STATE HOUSES HAVE BEEN SOLD OR DEMOLISHED. SOME OF THOSE HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH MORE INTENSIVE DEVELOPMENTS, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. BUT IT'S NOT ENTIRELY ACCURATE TO SAY THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT HASN'T SOLD HOUSES AS WELL. LOOK, WE MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO SECRET OF THE FACT THAT WE ARE PULLING DOWN HOUSES ALL THROUGH NEW ZEALAND. AND SELLING THEM. YEAH. NO, TO REDEVELOP THEM IN TERMS OF BUILDING MORE HOUSES. ARE YOU SELLING THEM AS WELL? WE HAVE SOLD A FEW, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE A LOOK, THAT IS A NET INCREASE. VERY FEW PROPERTIES HAVE BEEN SOLD. SO I WANT TO PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT SELL-OFF OF STATE HOUSES, THEY ENDED NINE YEARS IN OFFICE WITH 1500 FEWER HOUSES THAN THEY STARTED WITH. THAT'S NOT EVEN TAKING ACCOUNT FOR THE NUMBERS THAT WERE TRANSFERRED TO CHIPS. THAT IS 1500 FEWER THAN WE STARTED WITH. IN SIX YEARS, WE'RE ENDING UP WITH 13,000 MORE THAN WE STARTED WITH. SO I THINK TO ANY ALLEGATIONS THAT WE'RE DOING A STATE HOUSE SELL-OFF, DO WE SELL HOUSES WHERE IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE FOR US TO HAVE THAT HOUSE? YES, WE DO. BUT WE ARE REPLACING THEM AT A FAR GREATER RATE. I'M NOT ALLEGING YOU'RE UNDERTAKING A STATE HOUSE SELL-OFF. ALL I'M SAYING IS THERE ARE NUANCE TO THOSE NUMBERS, RIGHT? AND WHEN YOU WHEN YOU SEE THOSE HEADLINE NUMBERS, ESPECIALLY HEADING INTO AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, THEY CAN BE A LITTLE MISLEADING IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE SOME OF THAT NUANCE. OH, WELL, I THINK THAT, OF COURSE, IF WE'RE GOING TO REDEVELOP THE LAND WE OWNED, WE HAVE TO DEMOLISH THE BUILDING THAT'S ON IT. SO I THINK IF WE WERE SITTING HERE, AND I WAS GIVING YOU OUR GROSS NUMBERS, THIS IS HOW MANY HOUSES WE'VE ADDED` BUT IT'S THE REDIRECTS. I MEAN, A THIRD OF THOSE NEW HOUSES THAT YOU CLAIM ARE REDIRECTS. YEAH, AND THIS IS` THIS IS POLICY SETTINGS THAT WERE SET UP UNDER THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT. AS I SAID, I'VE CHANGED THOSE SETTINGS BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE WAY IN WHICH THAT WE DO` THAT WE DO FIX THE HOUSING CRISIS, BUT WE HAVE TO HONOUR THE CONTRACTS THAT WERE ENTERED INTO FROM THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT. I DO THINK THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF SHIFTING DECKCHAIRS, AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY OUR GOVERNMENT HAS APPROACHED FIXING THE HOUSING CRISIS. 24,000 IS THE HOUSING REGISTER AT THE MOMENT. ON YOUR CURRENT RATE OF ADDING HOUSES TO THAT TOTAL SOCIAL HOUSING POOL, WHEN WILL THE HOUSING REGISTER BE CLEARED? WELL, WE WON'T ONLY CLEAR THE HOUSING REGISTER BY BUILDING STATE HOUSES, AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO ONE OF THE BIG PROGRAMMES OF WORK THAT WE'VE BEEN ON, THAT BEFORE, WE HAD THE CHANGES THAT HAPPENED UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, WHERE YOU HAD COMMUNITY PROVIDERS AND HOUSING NEW ZEALAND START TO COMPETE, ESSENTIALLY, FOR INCOME-RELATED RENT SUBSIDIES, THAT WE USED TO HAVE SOCIAL HOUSING, WHICH WAS AFFORDABLE RENTALS, WHICH WERE PROVIDED BY CHURCH AND COMMUNITY GROUPS AND COUNCILS. I THINK THAT THAT WAS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE CASUALTIES OF THAT PERIOD OF OUR HISTORY, AND THAT'S A BIT WE'RE SEEKING TO REBUILD. SO IT'S NOT ALL` WHEN WE TALK ABOUT STATE HOUSE NUMBERS, WE'RE ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT HOW MANY ARE FUNDED THROUGH INCOME-RELATED RENT SUBSIDY. I UNDERSTAND. SO WHAT I ALSO WANT TO DO IS REBUILD THAT BIT OF THE SECTOR WHERE WE CAN ONCE AGAIN GET THESE GROUPS LIKE CHURCHES AND COUNCILS WHO CAN OFFER AFFORDABLE HOUSING THAT ISN'T INCOME-RELATED RENT SUBSIDY. AND WE'VE GOT FUNDING GOING OUT AT THE MOMENT TO HELP THOSE ORGANISATIONS BUILD THOSE HOUSES. SO TO THE QUESTION` WHEN WILL THE SOCIAL HOUSING REGISTER BE CLEARED? AS QUICKLY AS IT CAN. WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IT COME DOWN` WHICH IS WHAT? ARE WE TALKING FIVE YEARS, AT THE CURRENT MOMENTUM, A DECADE? SO WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT WE'RE BUILDING AROUND 3000 A YEAR NOW, WHICH IS A LARGE NUMBER OF STATE HOUSES TO BE ADDED. WE WILL HAVE BY THE END OF 2025, WHICH IS WHERE OUR FUNDING GOES OUT TO, THERE WILL BE 21,000 HOUSES THAT WILL HAVE BEEN ADDED AT THAT TIME. BUT I DON'T WANT TO JUST COUNT THIS` MY POINT, JACK, IS I DON'T WANT TO JUST COUNT THIS ON THE RATE OF STATE HOUSE BUILD, BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S OTHER THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO BE DOING` I UNDERSTAND THAT. AND SO, WITH ALL OF THOSE POLICY SETTINGS, WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE TIME TO EXPECT THAT SOCIAL HOUSING REGISTER TO BE CLEAR? WELL, I THINK WE NEED TO SEE IT COMING DOWN IN THE NEXT TWO AND THREE YEARS. I THINK WE NEED TO SEE THAT STARTING TO COME DOWN` CLEARED. IN TERMS OF CLEARED, I CAN'T GIVE YOU A DATE ON THAT. WE NEED TO BE PULLING ALL THE LEVERS WE CAN. AND I CAN'T GIVE YOU A DATE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOT A SIMPLE LINEAR, CONNECTING THE DOT BETWEEN THE BUILD PROGRAMME AND A POINT IN TIME ON THE CALENDAR, BECAUSE WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE NOT JUST RELYING ON OUR PUBLIC HOUSE BUILD PROGRAMME TO DO IT. QUOTE: 'I REFUSE TO STAND BY WHILE CHILDREN ARE LIVING IN CARS.' THAT WAS JACINDA ARDERN IN 2017, AT WHICH TIME THERE WERE 102 PUBLIC APPLICANTS, PUBLIC HOUSING APPLICANTS, WHO LISTED THEIR ADDRESS AS BEING A VEHICLE; LIVING IN A CAR. IN JUNE OF THIS YEAR, 480 HOUSING APPLICANTS TOLD THE AUTHORITIES THAT THEY WERE LIVING IN THEIR CARS. THE NUMBER OF NEW ZEALANDERS LIVING IN CARS HAS QUADRUPLED SINCE YOU CAME TO POWER. WHY? SO, THAT NUMBER IS WHEN SOMEONE GOES IN TO MSD, AND THEY'RE ASKED ABOUT THEIR CURRENT LIVING SITUATION. NOBODY STAYS IN A CAR ANY MORE, THAT THERE IS EMERGENCY HOUSING FOR THEM TO GO INTO. SO THAT IS THE DATA ` THE DATA YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS THE INFORMATION THAT IS COLLECTED WHEN THEY GO INTO MSD. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT NO ONE IN NEW ZEALAND IS LIVING IN A CAR? NOBODY HAS TO. THAT'S WHEN THEY GO INTO MSD AND SAY THAT THEY NEED TO TALK TO SOMEONE ABOUT HOUSING. THAT'S THE DATA THAT IS COLLECTED THERE. THE DIFFERENCE WITH THE PERIOD IN TIME BEFORE THOSE NUMBERS, THE 100-SOMETHING NUMBER YOU'RE USING, IS OF COURSE WHAT BROUGHT THE NATIONAL PARTY WHEN THEY WERE IN GOVERNMENT IN TO FIRST STARTING USING MOTELS, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING IN THEIR CARS. WE DIDN'T HAVE EMERGENCY HOUSING. AND WHEN THEY DID BRING IT IN, IT WAS CAPPED. WE'VE EXPANDED THAT. OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANY CHILD LIVING IN A CAR. I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANY CHILD LIVING IN A MOTEL. AND THAT'S WHY WE ARE SO FOCUSED ON FIXING THE HOUSING CRISIS. BUT I THINK IN TERMS OF SAYING THAT THEY HAVE TO CONTINUE TO LIVE IN THEIR CARS, THAT IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL. AND THAT'S PART OF THE CRITICISM THAT WE GET, ACTUALLY, FOR OUR MOTEL BILL. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, I'LL` I WOULD HAVE A CHILD LIVING IN A MOTEL OVER A CAR ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. I DON'T WANT THEM STAYING IN MOTELS, AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE SO DEDICATED TO OUR BUILD PROGRAMME. AFTER THE BREAK ` KIRI ALLAN, MICHAEL WOOD... I ASK LABOUR'S CAMPAIGN CHAIR HOW THE LAST FEW WEEKS WILL IMPACT THE ELECTION. HOKI MAI ` WELCOME BACK. THE HEALTHY HOMES STANDARDS WERE INTRODUCED BY LABOUR AS AN EFFORT TO IMPROVE HOUSING CONDITIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. IN THE SECOND PART OF OUR INTERVIEW, I ASKED MEGAN WOODS IF LANDLORDS ARE COMPLYING WITH THE LAWS. WHEN YOU LODGE A BOND APPLICATION AS A LANDLORD, YOU HAVE TO FILL IN A` YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY FILL THAT DETAIL IN` YOU TICK A BOX, RIGHT, AND SAY, 'YES, MY HOUSE IS COMPLIANT.' YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO THROUGH A CALCULATION IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT YOUR HOME MEETS THAT STANDARD, IN TERMS OF WHAT THE INSULATION IS LIKE. BUT THAT'S AN HONESTY BOX SYSTEM, RIGHT? IT IS AN HONESTY BOX. BUT WE ALSO DO NEED LANDLORDS TO BE HONEST, AND I DON'T THINK ANY OF US WOULD THINK THAT WAS AN UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION. WE ASK PEOPLE... DO WE NOT? ...TO MAKE DECLARATIONS ALL OVER THE PLACE IN TERMS OF OF THEIR LIVES, WHEN THEY ARE FILLING IN. BUT WE ARE DOING SOME CHECKS. YEAH, SOME CHECKS. SO ACCORDING TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF NEW ZEALAND'S TOTAL RENTAL STOCK, ABOUT ONE IN 500 WAS CHECKED FOR COMPLIANCE IN THE YEAR TO MAY 2023. ONE IN 500. YEAH. AND I MEAN, THERE IS MORE WE CAN DO AROUND CHECKING, AND THAT IS SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE US TO DO MORE ON. BUT ALSO, JACK, I AM GOING TO PUT THIS BACK ON` WE` I DON'T THINK IT IS TOO MUCH TO EXPECT THAT WHEN WE ASK PEOPLE TO FILL IN A STATUTORY FORM THAT THEY'RE TELLING THE TRUTH. WELL, IT IS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FAILING, OR LANDLORDS WHO ARE FAILING THE HEALTHY HOME STANDARD. SO OF ALL OF THOSE CHECKS IN THE YEAR TO MAY 2023, 53% WERE BREACHING THE STANDARDS. YEAH, AND THEY WERE CHECKED. SO WE ARE PRIORITISING THE HOMES WHERE THERE ARE COMPLAINTS. SO WHERE THERE IS` NO, ACTUALLY, OF THOSE` OF THE 53%` ARE THEY RANDOM CHECKS? YEAH, TWO-THIRDS OF THE CHECKS WERE NOT` OH, SO THEY WERE RANDOM CHECKS. ONLY A THIRD HAD ACTUALLY COME FROM A COMPLAINT. YEAH. I DON'T HAVE THAT DATA IN FRONT OF ME. SO I'VE GOT IT HERE. BUT I MEAN, THAT IS REMARKABLE, GIVEN THE GOVERNMENT IS, FOR EXAMPLE, PURCHASING ADS WARNING LANDLORDS THAT THEY MIGHT FACE CONSEQUENCES IF THEIR HOUSE DOESN'T COMPLY WITH THE HEALTHY HOME STANDARDS. WOULDN'T GREATER ENFORCEMENT BE MORE EFFECTIVE AS A STRATEGY? ABSOLUTELY. AND THERE IS A COST WITH THAT. SO WHAT WE DO HAVE TO ALSO ASK IS THAT PEOPLE, WHEN THEY ARE FILLING IN THEIR FORMS, I DON'T THINK IT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK PEOPLE TO TELL THE TRUTH. WE ASK PEOPLE TO DO THAT ALL OVER THE SHOW IN TERMS OF FORMS THEY FILL INTO GOVERNMENT, AND THERE'S NOT AN EXPECTATION NECESSARILY THAT THE TAXPAYER ALSO HAS TO PICK UP THE TAB OF GOING AND CHECKING ON THEM. I THINK THERE IS MORE WE CAN DO IN COMPLIANCE. I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU ON THAT. BUT WHAT I AM GOING TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT ON IS THAT SOME OF THE ONUS ACTUALLY SITS WITH THE LANDLORDS WHO ARE NOT FULFILLING THEIR OBLIGATIONS TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE OFFERING A WARM, DRY RENTAL. YOU'RE JUST ASKING LANDLORDS TO DO THE RIGHT THING HERE. AND THERE ARE MANY LANDLORDS WHO WILL SAY, 'IF SOMEONE IS WILLING TO RENT THIS PROPERTY, 'PERHAPS AT A LOWER RATE THAN THAN WOULD BE EXPECTED 'IF IT COMPLIED WITH ALL OF THE HEALTHY HOME STANDARDS, 'WHY WOULD I BOTHER UPGRADING MY HOUSE 'IF THERE'S A 0.2% CHANCE OF IT BEING INSPECTED?' WELL, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO A SAD POINT IF THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN HAVE COMPLIANCE ON ANY ISSUE IS BECAUSE YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO DO IT IF THE GOVERNMENT ARE GOING TO COME AROUND AND CHECK ON YOU. WE ASK PEOPLE TO FILL IN THE TRUTH IN TAX FORMS. WE ASK PEOPLE TO` NOT EVERYONE GETS INVESTIGATED BY THE IRD. SO I THINK THAT IS A PRETTY SAD STATE THAT WE'VE GOT TO. BUT 53% OF PEOPLE AREN'T LYING IN THEIR TAX RETURNS, ARE THEY? I MEAN, THAT'S THE THING. IF YOU'VE GOT 53% OF INSPECTED PROPERTIES BREACHING THOSE HEALTHY HOME STANDARDS, SURELY THAT IS AN INDICATION THAT YOU NEED GREATER ENFORCEMENT. JACK, I'M NOT ARGUING WITH YOU THAT WE DO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE GOT ENFORCEMENT AND COMPLIANCE. BUT I'M SAYING SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITY ACTUALLY DOES LIE WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE FILLING IN THE FORMS TO TELL THE TRUTH. AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH TO ASK PEOPLE. WHEN WE LAST SPOKE WITH YOU, WE TALKED ABOUT ROTORUA'S GOLDEN MILE, FENTON STREET, AND WE ASKED SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TINY DEANE, WHO IS THE OWNER OF A SECURITY COMPANY AND THE CEO OF VISIONS OF A HELPING HAND, WHICH IS AN EMERGENCY HOUSING PROVIDER IN ROTORUA. REPORTING BY OUR COLLEAGUES ON SUNDAY REVEALED HE HAD BEEN EMPLOYING GANG ASSOCIATES AS SECURITY GUARDS. THE AUTHORITY WHICH REGULATES SECURITY COMPANIES HAS NOW FOUND THAT TINY DEANE ENGAGED TWO SECURITY GUARDS WHOM HE KNEW WERE LINKED TO GANGS, WITHOUT PROPER LICENCES, AND HE LET THEM KEEP WORKING AFTER THEIR LICENCE APPLICATIONS WERE DECLINED. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY USING VISIONS OF A HELPING HAND AS AN EMERGENCY PROVIDER? SO, THE FIRST IS WE HAVE AGENCIES THAT DO DO THAT LICENSING FOR PRECISELY THIS REASON. THAT IS, TO HAVE THOSE CHECKS AND BALANCES AROUND PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THESE JOBS. SO I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, WE CAN SAY THAT THAT PROCESS HAS KIND OF DONE WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO. WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS THAT OFFICIALS FROM THE MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, WHO ARE THE CONTRACTING AGENCY AROUND WHAT WE'RE DOING IN ROTORUA, AND I THINK NOBODY WOULD BE SURPRISED TO KNOW THEY'RE IN CONVERSATIONS WITH VISIONS OF A HELPING HAND IN TERMS OF TALKING ABOUT WHAT THAT CONTRACT LOOKS LIKE AND HOW THAT'S GOING TO WORK THROUGH IT. AND I'M DUE TO RECEIVE AN UPDATE ON THAT IN THE COMING WEEKS IN TERMS OF WHERE THOSE DISCUSSIONS ARE GOING TO. SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE ASKED OFFICIALS, TO WORK WITH THEIR AGENCY SO THAT WE CAN ENSURE THAT EVERYBODY IS BEING KEPT SAFE. JUST TO BE TOTALLY CLEAR, HE HAS STOOD DOWN TEMPORARILY FROM THE CEO ROLE AT VISIONS. YES. WILL YOU CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THAT PROVIDER IF HE RETURNS TO THE CEO ROLE? AS I SAID, JACK, I'VE ASKED FOR DETAILED WORK TO BE DONE TO WORK WITH THE BOARD, AND I'LL BE GETTING A REPORT BACK ON THAT SOON. IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING I'M AWARE OF AND SOMETHING THAT I'M` THAT I'M COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING. HOUSING WAS ARGUABLY THE ISSUE OF THE 2017 ELECTION, AND LABOUR CAME IN WITH MASSIVE PROMISES TO TACKLE THE HOUSING CRISIS. KIWIBUILD, RENTERS' RIGHTS, NO MORE KIDS IN CARS. RELATIVE TO INCOME, HOUSES TODAY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE; RENTS ARE AT RECORD HIGHS; OF YOUR 100,000 KIWIBUILD TARGET, YOU HAVE MORE THAN 98,000 HOUSES STILL TO BUILD. YOU'VE INTRODUCED RENTERS' RIGHTS, BUT ARE BARELY ENFORCING THEM. THERE ARE FOUR TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE ON THE SOCIAL HOUSING WAITING LIST, AND YOU'RE SPENDING $1 MILLION A DAY ON EMERGENCY HOUSING PROVIDERS. BY ALL OF THOSE METRICS, THINGS ARE WORSE THAN IN 2017. SO WHY SHOULD ANYONE BELIEVE THAT LABOUR HAS THE CAPACITY TO IMPROVE THE STATE OF HOUSING IN NEW ZEALAND? WELL, JACK, THERE'S SO MANY PLACES I COULD START, IN THAT LIST OF THINGS THAT YOU'VE JUST READ OUT. THE OTHER ONE I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU IN TERMS OF METRICS, IS ONE IN SEVEN PUBLIC HOUSES IN NEW ZEALAND HAVE BEEN ADDED BY OUR GOVERNMENT. WHEN WE CONSIDER THAT THIS IS A BUILD PROGRAMME THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE 1930S, I THINK THAT IS A TRULY ASTONISHING NUMBER. IN TERMS OF THE KIWIBUILD` ALL THOSE OTHER METRICS ARE HEADED IN THE WRONG WAY. SO JACK, I THINK KIWIBUILD, OK, IT'S THE EASIEST POLITICAL HIT IN THE COUNTRY. THE TARGET IS NO LONGER 100,000, AND YOU KNOW THAT, THAT WE DID A RESET OF THAT` BUT IT WAS IN AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND WE'RE HEADING INTO ANOTHER ELECTION CAMPAIGN NOW. YOU CAME IN ON THESE MASSIVE PROMISES. AND BY GOING THROUGH ALL THOSE CRITICAL METRICS, NOT JUST KIWIBUILD, I MEAN, HOUSING AFFORDABILITY` I'M GOING TO TAKE KIWIBUILD, THEN, JACK. SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT ACTUALLY KIWIBUILD, OR THE GOVERNMENT UNDERWRITE, IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AS WE GO INTO THE, KIND OF, THE DOWNSIDE OF THE HOUSING CYCLE, THAT WHEN WE HAD A HOT HOUSING MARKET LIKE WE'D HAD IN THE PREVIOUS COUPLE OF YEARS, THAT DEVELOPERS REALLY DIDN'T NEED DE-RISKING TOOLS, BUT ACTUALLY, THAT WE ARE SEEING A BIG UPSWING IN TERMS OF DEVELOPERS NEEDING THIS TO GET FUNDING AND FINANCING ACROSS THE LINE. WHAT THAT DOES IS IT ENSURES THAT WE DON'T SEE WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE GFC, WHERE AFFORDABLE HOUSING JUST FELL OFF THE RADAR, THAT PEOPLE WENT TO THE LEAST RISKY PART OF THE MARKET, AND NO ONE CAN BLAME THEM FOR THAT. BUT WITH KIWIBUILD WE ARE STILL SEEING AFFORDABLE HOMES COME THROUGH IN THAT BUILD PROGRAMME- BUT COMPARED TO THE TARGET THAT WAS SOLD TO NEW ZEALAND VOTERS, HEADING INTO THE 2017 ELECTION` AND WE RESET THAT. YEAH, YOU RESET IT ONCE YOU'RE IN GOVERNMENT. YES. BUT THE POINT IS THAT GOING THROUGH ALL OF THOSE METRICS, AND I MEAN, IT'S NOT JUST THE KIWIBUILD, IT'S HOUSING AFFORDABILITY. I MEAN, THE MEDIAN MULTIPLE HOUSES ARE INARGUABLY MORE EXPENSIVE RELATIVE TO INCOMES THAN IN 2017. HOW DOES NEW ZEALAND COMPARE TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH HOUSING AFFORDABILITY AROUND THE WORLD POST-COVID? HOW DOES NEW ZEALAND COMPARE TO WHEN YOU CAME TO GOVERNMENT 2017? BUT, JACK, I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK GLOBALLY OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HOUSE PRICES, POST-COVID` WHAT HAPPENED TO HOUSE PRICES BEFORE COVID, BETWEEN 2017 AND 2020? WHAT HAPPENED THERE? WE SAW THAT MASSIVE INFLATION WITH HOUSE PRICES HAPPEN AS THE WORLD CAME OUT OF THE ECONOMIC CRISIS THAT COVID HAD CAUSED. I MEAN, I THINK WE PROBABLY ALL REMEMBER THOSE MONTH-ON-MONTH TICKING UP OF HOUSE PRICES. WE ARE SEEING THAT STARTING TO COME OUT. AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE CRITICALLY HAVE TO DO IS TO ENSURE THAT WE STILL HAVE SUPPLY COMING THROUGH, AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE PUT IN PLACE NOT ONLY KIWIBUILD, BUT A BUNCH OF OTHER LEVERS TO MAKE SURE THAT AS WE FACE THOSE ECONOMIC HEADWINDS THAT WE DON'T SEE CONSTRUCTION FALL OFF` YEAH. AND THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE SEEING CONSTRUCTION HOLDING UP REASONABLY WELL. COUPLE OF LAST QUESTIONS ON THE CAMPAIGN. YOU ARE LABOUR'S CAMPAIGN CHAIR. TO WHAT EXTENT IS YOUR MOMENTUM SLIPPING? LOOK, I THINK THAT CAMPAIGNS HAVE THEIR OWN KIND OF CYCLE, THAT OBVIOUSLY THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS HAVEN'T BEEN IDEAL SCENARIOS FOR ANY CAMPAIGN. BUT LOOK, CAMPAIGNS HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE FOCUSED ON EXACTLY WHAT THE PLAN IS, MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE EXECUTING THAT, AND TO ALSO NOT PANIC AS YOU GO THROUGH THE UPS AND DOWNS OF WHAT ANY CAMPAIGN WILL BRING. I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN FAR TOO MANY CAMPAIGNS IN MY LIFE THAT THROW THINGS THAT YOU NEVER EXPECT THAT ARE COMING AT YOU, THAT YOU'VE GOT TO BE PREPARED FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK` WE'RE SATISFIED IN TERMS OF HOW THE CAMPAIGN, IN TERMS OF THE MACHINERY OF THE CAMPAIGN, IS ROLLING OUT. IN FACT, I THINK IT'S GOING INCREDIBLY WELL. ARE YOU RUNNING A KIND CAMPAIGN? WE CERTAINLY ARE RUNNING A POSITIVE CAMPAIGN, THAT WHAT WE ARE TALKING TO NEW ZEALANDERS` ARE YOU RUNNING A KIND CAMPAIGN? IF, BY KIND, YOU MEAN ARE WE TALKING TO NEW ZEALANDERS` WELL, YOU GUYS SET THE PARAMETERS ON KINDNESS IN 2020. SO ARE YOU RUNNING A KIND CAMPAIGN? I'LL ANSWER IT KINDLY. BUT IF YOU'RE ASKING, 'ARE WE TALKING TO NEW ZEALANDERS 'ABOUT THE THINGS THAT MATTER TO THEM', ABOUT HOW HARD THAT THEY'RE FINDING IT AT THE MOMENT, IN TERMS OF COST OF LIVING, GOING TO THE SUPERMARKET, HOW IT IS THAT THEY'RE GETTING BY, THEN I THINK THAT IS INCREDIBLY KIND, THAT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED ON THOSE COST OF LIVING ISSUES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO NEW ZEALANDERS. AND IN TERMS OF WHAT LIFE IS LIKE FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE` ARE YOU SHOWING KINDNESS TO YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS? I THINK WE ARE. I THINK THAT POLITICS ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE AN INCREDIBLY ROBUST ENVIRONMENT. I LIKE TO SEE THAT ROBUST EXCHANGE BEING ABOUT THE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS AND NOT FOCUSED ON PEOPLE. WAS IT KIND FOR YOU TO COMPARE WOMEN'S RIGHTS UNDER A PRIME MINISTER CHRISTOPHER LUXON TO THE HANDMAID'S TALE DYSTOPIA? SO, AS I SAID, I THINK THAT POLITICS, WHEN IT COMES TO AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS, SHOULD BE ROBUST. AM I GOING TO CALL IN TO- WAS THAT KIND? WAS IT KIND, IN TERMS OF` WAS IT KIND FOR YOU TO POST THAT? WE'RE POINTING OUT THEY'RE SAYING THAT 'WE ARE GOING TO START CHARGING FOR CONTRACEPTION AGAIN.' THAT WAS NOT FOCUSED ON AN INDIVIDUAL. IT WAS FOCUSED ON A POLICY IDEA, AND WE SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS, JACK. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT ELECTIONS ARE ABOUT, AND I STAND BY THAT. DAMIEN O'CONNOR, GREG O'CONNOR, ADRIAN RURAWHE, JENNY SALESA, RINO TIRIKATENE, JAIME STRANGE, NANAIA MAHUTA. THE LIST GOES ON. THOSE ARE COLLEAGUES OF YOURS WHO OPPOSED ABORTION REFORM. WERE THEY DESERVING OF HANDMAID'S TALE MEMES? LOOK, I THINK WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A PARTICULAR POLICY AROUND ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION. THE TWEET WAS AFTER CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAID THAT NATIONAL WOULDN'T CONTINUE WITH FREE PRESCRIPTIONS FOR CONTRACEPTION FOR EVERYBODY. SO WAS IT` WAS NEW ZEALAND LIVING UNDER A HANDMAID'S TALE DYSTOPIA FOR THE FIVE YEARS OF THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN WHICH THOSE PRESCRIPTIONS ALSO WEREN'T FUNDED? NO, BUT WHEN YOU'RE FACED WITH A CHOICE ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IT BACK ON` YOU WERE ALSO FACED WITH THE CHOICE DURING THOSE FIVE YEARS. I MEAN, YOU JUST WAITED UNTIL THIS BUDGET TO REMOVE THAT THING. SO YOU ALSO HAVE THAT CHOICE. OF COURSE, POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE TO MAKE` HAVE TO PHASE IN ALL THE POLICIES THEY BRING IN. BUT WHEN FACED WITH A CHOICE, WHEN ASKED THE QUESTION, CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAID HE WOULD PUT THOSE CHARGES BACK ON. I WANT TO ASK YOU WHO'S GOING TO WIN ILAM, BUT I SUSPECT I KNOW YOUR ANSWER. SO WHO'S GOING TO COME SECOND IN ILAM? I THINK ILAM'S GOING TO BE A REALLY INTERESTING SEAT TO WATCH. I THINK THAT IT HASN'T TRADITIONALLY BEEN A LABOUR SEAT. IT'S ONE THAT WE PICKED UP IN 2020, BUT WE'VE HAD AN INCREDIBLY HARD-WORKING MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT THAT'S BEEN IN THERE IN SARAH PALLETT, THAT SHE'S WORKED REALLY HARD IN TERMS OF GETTING TO KNOW CONSTITUENTS. I THINK IN TERMS OF FOR SECOND, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING, BECAUSE I THINK THE GREENS WILL ALSO BE PARTICULARLY STRONG IN ILAM, THAT IF YOU LOOK AT THE PARTY GROWTH` IN THE GROWTH OF THE PARTY VOTE OVER TIME IN ILAM, YOU CAN SEE THAT THAT HAS BEEN GROWING. SO I THINK THAT IF YOU PUT THAT MIX OF KIND OF THE NATIONAL, TOP AND THE GREENS IN FOR SECOND, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A REALLY INTERESTING MIX. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. YOU CAN FIND US ON EMAIL OR TWITTER, FACEBOOK. UP NEXT ` THE ERA OF GLOBAL BOILING HAS ARRIVED. BUT AFTER THE HOTTEST MONTH ON RECORD, WILL SCIENTISTS GIVE UP ON 1.5 DEGREES? IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, WE ARE CURRENTLY LIVING THROUGH THE HOTTEST MONTH ON RECORD ` NOT JUST THE HOTTEST JULY; THE HOTTEST MONTH. ACCORDING TO CLIMATE SCIENTISTS, PROVISIONAL DATA SUGGESTS JULY 2023 COULD WELL BE THE HOTTEST MONTH ON EARTH IN 100,000 YEARS. HOW HOT WAS JULY? IN NORWAY, RIGHT UP NEAR THE ARCTIC CIRCLE, PEOPLE BATHED AS THE TEMPERATURE HIT 34 DEGREES; IN CHINA, A ONCE-IN-A-MILLENNIUM RAINSTORM DROWNED PEOPLE IN AN UNDERGROUND TRAIN; SIBERIA BURNED IN WILDFIRES. OH` OH, HANG ON, HANG ON, HANG ON. HANG ON A SECOND. (RECORD SCRATCHES) THAT WAS JULY 2021, WHEN WE ALSO COVERED THE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS OF THE NORTHERN SUMMER. LAST YEAR, DURING EXACTLY THE SAME PERIOD, JULY 2022, IT WAS SPAIN'S TURN TO BURN IN WILDFIRES. CHINA RECORDED YET ANOTHER RECORD RAINFALL. AND IT WAS SO HOT IN LONDON ` YES, LONDON ` THAT AIRPORT RUNWAYS MELTED. BUT THE EXTREME WEATHER OF JULY 2023 LOOKS SET TO SMASH THAT OF THE PREVIOUS TWO YEARS. THE U.S. HAS BEEN CRUSHED BY A HEATWAVE. IT REPEATEDLY HIT 50 DEGREES CELSIUS IN DEATH VALLEY. AND WHILE YOU MIGHT THINK, 'AH WELL, THAT'S DEATH VALLEY,' SPARE A THOUGHT FOR PHOENIX. (WATER RUSHES) THE METRO AREA IS HOME TO ROUGHLY THE SAME POPULATION AS NEW ZEALAND. FOR THE FIRST THREE WEEKS OF JULY, THE AVERAGE DAILY HIGH WAS JUST UNDER 46 DEGREES. THE OCEAN TEMPERATURE NEAR MIAMI MAY HAVE SET A NEW WORLD RECORD THIS WEEK AT JUST OVER 38 DEGREES CELSIUS ` WARM ENOUGH FOR A NICE BATH. MEANWHILE, IN EUROPE, GREECE THIS WEEK EXPERIENCED ITS LARGEST EVACUATION IN MODERN HISTORY. ALMOST 20,000 TOURISTS HAD TO BE URGENTLY MOVED FROM THE PATH OF WILDFIRES ON ROADS. ITALY WAS STRUCK BY RECORD HEATWAVES, WILDFIRES AND IN SOME REGIONS... BIBLICAL HAILSTORMS TO BOOT. IN TOWNS THAT HAD BEEN SWELTERING NEAR MILAN, THE HAIL MELTED INTO RIVERS OF ICE. IN BOTH JULY OF LAST YEAR AND THE YEAR BEFORE, I SAT DOWN WITH NIWA'S PRINCIPAL CLIMATE SCIENTIST TO DISCUSS THE MONTH'S EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS AND THE IMPACT OF A WARMING CLIMATE. ONCE AGAIN, THIS YEAR, AT EXACTLY THE SAME POINT, I SPOKE WITH SAM DEAN AND ASKED HIM WHAT CONCERNED HIM MOST ABOUT THE EVENTS. WELL, I'D SAY THAT'S PROBABLY RIGHT NOW. THE FACT THAT WE'RE POTENTIALLY GONNA SEE THE HOTTEST JULY` WE ARE GONNA SEE THE HOTTEST JULY ON RECORD. BUT WE'VE GOT SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES ALL ACROSS THE PLANET THAT ARE JUST EXTREMELY HIGH. THE EARTH IS EXTREMELY SUNBURNED AT THE MOMENT, AND IT'S WARM AROUND THE ANTARCTICA, WHERE WE HAVE RECORD-LOW SEA ICE, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE MIDDLE OF WINTER; IT'S WARM IN THE UPPER PACIFIC; IT'S WARM OFF THE COASTS OF AMERICA. IT'S EXTREMELY WARM IN THE ATLANTIC. IT'S JUST OFF THE CHARTS IN TERMS OF THE HISTORICAL RECORD OF ATLANTIC OCEAN TEMPERATURES, THAT MARINE HEATWAVE THAT THEY'RE SUFFERING. THE MEDITERRANEAN OCEANS ARE HOT. THIS HEAT IS NOT GONNA DISAPPEAR OVERNIGHT. IN FACT, IT'S PROBABLY ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE AS WE` AS EL NINO IS ONLY JUST GETTING STARTED, THE TROPICAL PACIFIC IS ONLY JUST BEGINNING TO WARM UP. AND THAT IS A` PUTS US ON A TRAJECTORY AT THE GLOBAL SCALE FOR SIGNIFICANT HEAT OVER THE COMING MONTHS. THE PARIS TARGET REMAINS IN PLACE. DR JAMES RENWICK TOLD ME EARLIER THIS YEAR HE BELIEVES THE WORLD WILL EXCEED 1.5 DEGREES IN HEATING FROM PRE-INDUSTRIAL AVERAGES. DO YOU AGREE? I AGREE COMPLETELY. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY SCENARIO AT THIS POINT THAT` ANY REALISTIC SCENARIO THAT WOULD PREVENT US FROM PASSING 1.5 PROBABLY VERY SOON ON A TEMPORARY BASIS, AND PERMANENTLY BY THE NEXT DECADE. SO THAT'S` I THINK WE, REALISTICALLY, TWO DEGREES IS SOMETHING WE CAN STILL ACHIEVE IF WE ALL GET TO NET ZERO BY THE MIDDLE OF THE 2040S, BY 2050 AT THE LATEST, THEN WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO STAY BELOW TWO DEGREES. BUT THAT'S A TOUGH` I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE AT THE MOMENT THAT ANYONE IS MAKING THE EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE THAT EITHER. SO CURRENT POLICIES WON'T GET US THERE. SOMETHING MORE SIGNIFICANT IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN. AND I DO WORRY THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE SOMETHING SEVERE LIKE THE WEATHER WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, WHERE DEATHS START TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE` BEFORE WE ARE WILLING TO REALLY TAKE ACTION AT A GLOBAL SCALE. SPEAKING OF EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS, NEW ZEALAND'S EMISSIONS FELL AGAIN IN 2022. WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT? YEAH, WELL, ON THE SURFACE, THAT SEEMS` THAT'S QUITE A POSITIVE THING. I THINK WHEN YOU BURROW INTO IT AND LOOK CAREFULLY AT WHAT'S GOING ON, THEN THERE HAS BEEN` WE'RE NOT BURNING VERY MUCH COAL AT THE MOMENT AND WE DIDN'T BURN VERY MUCH COAL LAST YEAR FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION, AND THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAD LOTS OF WATER. SO IT RAINED A LOT. LAST YEAR WAS VERY WET. THIS YEAR IS VERY WET AS WELL. AND WHEN WE GET ALL THAT RAIN THAT IS GOING INTO OUR HYDRO LAKES, ESPECIALLY IN THE NORTH ISLAND WHERE WE'VE HAD SUCH DRY CONDITIONS BACK IN 2020, THERE'S NOW LOTS OF WATER, AND THAT'S ALLOWED US TO DO LOTS OF RECORD LEVELS OF HYDRO GENERATION OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY. AND SO THAT'S MADE OUR ELECTRICAL` ELECTRICITY EMISSIONS IN PARTICULAR LOOK GOOD THE LAST YEAR AND THE YEAR BEFORE. THEY'VE FALLEN, AND THAT SEEMS GOOD, BUT THEN THAT'S` WE CAN'T RELY ON THE RAIN JUST FALLING LIKE THIS. IN FACT, WE REALLY DON'T WANT IT TO KEEP RAINING LIKE THIS. SO WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN WE HIT THE DRY YEAR? I MEAN, AT THE MOMENT WE'RE JUST` THE SOLUTION IS STILL TO BURN COAL. COAL IS THE FIRST SIGN THAT WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS. THE WORLD IS GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE UP BURNING COAL FOR POWER GENERATION, AND THAT INCLUDES NEW ZEALAND. AND IT'S THE FIRST STEP OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE RESPONSE. AND YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SUGGESTIONS, LIKE THE PUMPED HYDRO, THAT COULD ENABLE US TO DO THAT. BUT WHETHER WE HAVE THE WILL TO ACTUALLY SPEND THAT KIND OF MONEY, OR WHETHER THERE ARE OTHER SOLUTIONS THAT WE MIGHT SPEND MONEY, THESE REMAIN REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS FOR BRINGING DOWN OUR EMISSIONS IN THE COMING YEARS. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE IN THE SHIFT FROM LA NINA TO EL NINO? OH, WELL, IT'S QUITE BIG FOR THE EARTH. (CHUCKLES) YOU KNOW, LA NINA TENDS TO BRING THESE RAINFALL EXTREMES LIKE WE HAD IN NEW ZEALAND. IT TENDS TO BE WETTER AND COLDER. EL NINO TENDS TO MAKE THE PLANET A BIT DRIER AND A BIT HOTTER. AND WHAT IT INVOLVES IS, YOU KNOW, ADDITIONAL HEAT IN THE TROPICAL PACIFIC. AND THAT TENDS TO MAKE THE ENTIRE GLOBE WARMER. FOR NEW ZEALAND, WE SHOULD SEE A BIT OF A SHIFT TO MORE LIKELY TO BE A SOUTH-WESTERLY. SO WE TEND TO BE COOLER DURING EL NINOS. SO WHILE EVERYBODY ELSE GETS HOTTER, WE TEND TO HAVE OUR COOLER TIMES DURING EL NINOS. IN THE 1990S, WE HAD A LOT OF EL NINOS, AND OUR GLACIERS, SOME OF OUR GLACIERS ACTUALLY GREW IN LENGTH BECAUSE IT WAS COOLER. SO THAT` EL NINO BRINGS THOSE SOMEWHAT COOLER TEMPERATURES. THEY MAY HAVE EVEN JUST STARTED IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO AS THE ATMOSPHERE BEGINS TO RESPOND TO EL NINO, AND THEY WILL ALSO INCREASE THE RISK FOR DROUGHT. SO AS WE GET MORE SOUTH-WESTERLIES ON THE EAST COASTS, WE TEND TO GET MORE DROUGHTS AND GREATER RISK OF DROUGHT IN THE NORTH ISLAND, AGAIN WITH AN EL NINO, THAN COMPARED TO A LA NINA. SO THAT ALSO HAS IMPLICATIONS FOR OUR ENERGY. WE HAVE SEEN DEVASTATION WROUGHT BY FLOODS IN NEW ZEALAND THIS YEAR, BUT SO FAR AT LEAST, NEW ZEALAND HASN'T EXPERIENCED WILDFIRES ON THE SAME SCALE THAT HAVE AFFECTED EUROPE, NORTH AMERICA AND ASIA IN RECENT YEARS. ARE THERE PARTS OF NEW ZEALAND THAT ARE SIMILARLY VULNERABLE TO THE KINDS OF FIRES WE'VE WITNESSED THIS MONTH? ABSOLUTELY. YOU KNOW, WE HAD THE NELSON FIRES, WHICH WERE SIGNIFICANT AND QUITE SCARY FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE THROUGH. THERE ARE PARTS OF CENTRAL OTAGO WHERE THE FIRE RISK CAN GO` FROM THE WEATHER, CAN GO EXTREMELY HIGH. THERE'S NOT A LOT OF FUEL, BUT WHERE THERE ARE FORESTS, THEN THE RISK CAN BE SEVERE, AS BIG AS YOU CAN GET IN AUSTRALIA, AT TIMES, IN THE` THOSE PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. BUT I DO` I DO WORRY ABOUT FIRE. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T... DONE A LOT OF WORK IN` WELL, WE'VE DONE SOME WORK UNDERSTANDING HOW FIRE RISK CHANGES FOR NEW ZEALAND. BUT LOTS OF PARTS OF THE WORLD, IF THESE FIRES HAPPEN TOO FREQUENTLY, THEN THE ECOSYSTEMS CAN'T RECOVER, AND THEN YOU START TO GET ECOSYSTEM CHANGE. SO THAT'S A REALLY SEVERE EFFECT OF` THE FIRES ENDANGER PEOPLE'S LIVES, BUT THEY ALSO RISK TRANSFORMING LARGE REGIONS OF THE PLANET IN THE WAY THAT THOSE ECOSYSTEMS DON'T HAVE TIME TO RECOVER BEFORE THE NEXT FIRE COMES ALONG. SO THEY` FIRE'S A REAL WARNING SIGNAL OF THE PLANET, YOU KNOW? THERE'S TALK OF THE PLANET BURNING AND THAT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY REFLECTS THAT GREATER FIRE RISK AND HOW THOSE FIRES, IF THEY HAPPEN TOO OFTEN, ARE GONNA BE EVEN MORE DAMAGING THAN WE MIGHT THINK. WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU AS A SCIENTIST TURNING ON THE TELLY AND WATCHING THOSE IMAGES FROM THE AUCKLAND ANNIVERSARY FLOODS AND CYCLONE GABRIELLE? I WOULD SAY THEY'RE HEARTBREAKING, JACK. I THINK THAT IT WAS REALLY UPSETTING TO WATCH. IT'S` EVEN THOUGH WE EXPECT IT, AND WE KNOW IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN SOMEWHERE AT SOME POINT, IN THAT SENSE, IT'S NOT A SURPRISE. BUT TO STILL` TO SEE, SORT OF, THAT DEVASTATION AND WONDER HOW PEOPLE COPE, AND YOU TRY TO JUST HELP HOW YOU CAN, AND, YOU KNOW, WE DID A LOT OF WORK TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW CLIMATE CHANGE HAD AFFECTED IT. WE TRIED TO LOOK AT DATA FOR, YOU KNOW, RAINFALL DATA, SO WE COULD UNDERSTAND THE RAINFALL AND WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN THE RIVERS, AND ALL WE CAN REALLY` I THINK THE ONLY RESPONSE TO THAT IS TO TRY TO DO OUR BEST TO MAKE SURE THAT WE AREN'T FACED WITH THE SAME DILEMMA. WE CAN BE BETTER PREPARED, RIGHT? WE CAN IMPROVE OUR EARLY WARNING SYSTEMS. WE CAN UTILISE UNDERSTANDING OF FORECAST. THAT EVENT WAS FORECASTABLE AS A EX-TROPICAL CYCLONE, 10 DAYS IN ADVANCE, APPROACHING NEW ZEALAND. WE'VE GOT GOOD TECHNOLOGY AND GOOD PEOPLE, AND WE CAN TRY AND DO BETTER FOR ONE ANOTHER AND WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY'S GOT ACCESS TO THE BEST INFORMATION AND EARLY WARNING, AND WE ALL HELP SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN, BECAUSE THEY ARE GONNA HAPPEN MORE OFTEN. CLIMATE CHANGE IS GONNA MAKE THESE THINGS MORE INTENSE, MORE FREQUENT, AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH. WHEN IT COMES TO BOTH MITIGATION AND ADAPTATION, HAS NEW ZEALAND MADE THE TOUGH CALLS YET? UH, NO, I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK WE ARE THINKING ABOUT SOME OF THE TOUGH CALLS, BUT I THINK WE` YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT AN ELECTION COMING UP. I THINK, YOU KNOW, DURING ELECTION TIME, POLITICIANS REALLY ARE CANVASSING PEOPLE'S OPINIONS... AND PRIORITIES. THEIR PRIORITIES, THAT'S RIGHT. 'IS CLIMATE CHANGE YOUR NUMBER ONE, OR IS IT YOUR NUMBER 12?' AND THE POLICIES THAT` THESE WILL BE IMPLEMENTED AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION, WILL REFLECT THE` WHAT PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND WANT. AND SO I REALLY ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO ENGAGE WITH THAT PROCESS OF CONSIDERING INDIVIDUAL PARTIES' POLICIES AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING` PLANNING TO DO AS A RESPONSE TO CLIMATE CHANGE, BECAUSE THEY'RE REALLY BIG DECISIONS COMING UP. WE CAN LOOK AT THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME, YOU KNOW, REALLY BIG QUESTIONS THERE AROUND FORESTRY AND WHETHER WE USE THAT AS AN OFFSET, WHETHER THE PRIMARY AIM OF THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME IS TO ENABLE PLANTATION OF FORESTS TO OFFSET OUR EMISSIONS, OR WHETHER IT'S TRYING TO ACTUALLY ACTIVELY REDUCE OUR EMISSIONS. AND THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME IS A VERY COMPLICATED THING. VERY FEW PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IT, AND YET IT'S ONE OF OUR IMPORTANT RESPONSES. THE PUMPED HYDRO STORAGE PROPOSAL, AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS AND HOW THOSE` IF AND HOW THOSE ARE PRICED. THESE REMAIN REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES, AND THESE THINGS ARE URGENT. THEY'RE NOT` I ALWAYS WORRY THAT THESE BECOME THINGS THAT MAYBE WE CAN KEEP PUSHING DOWN THE ROAD, AND WE CAN'T KEEP PUSHING THEM DOWN THE ROAD, RIGHT? WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WE RISK REALLY SEVERE CLIMATE CHANGE THAT WILL BE VERY TRAUMATIC IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD. I DO` I KNOW THAT THE SORT OF DOOM AND GLOOM THING IS DIFFICULT. I WORRY` I STRUGGLE MYSELF WITH TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS, BECAUSE I KNOW IT UPSETS A LOT OF PEOPLE. YOUNG PEOPLE GET VERY` CAN GET VERY ANXIOUS, AND I WORRY ABOUT THAT. AND I DON'T` I TRY TO STAY POSITIVE, AND I THINK WE ARE... A CAPABLE PEOPLE, AND WE CAN DO REALLY CLEVER, WONDERFUL THINGS. AND I HAVE HOPE. BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO BE REALLY CRITICAL. WE HAVE TO BE CRITICAL OF OTHERS AND WHAT THEY SAY THEY'RE GONNA DO AND WHAT THEY ARE GONNA DO. AND SO THERE'S A LOT` THAT COMES ALSO BACK ON TO YOU AS THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS CLIMATE CHANGE IS AN ISSUE AT THE NEXT ELECTION, THAT IT IS A PRIORITY, THAT IT IS DEBATED, THAT IT IS INTERROGATED, THAT IT IS UNDERSTOOD. AND SO THERE'S` I PUT THAT CHALLENGE ON YOU, JACK, AND OTHERS IN THE MEDIA TO HELP... CONVEY THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND, SO THAT THEY CAN DECIDE WHERE THEY REALLY THINK CLIMATE CHANGE SITS, AMONGST THE OTHER PRIORITIES THAT EVERYBODY IS FACING AT THE MOMENT. THAT'S NIWA'S SAM DEAN. AFTER THE BREAK ` STUNNINGLY, AND INSULTINGLY, YOU'LL NEVER BELIEVE IT, BUT THERE ARE SOME VOTERS WHO AREN'T POLITICALLY ENGAGED ENOUGH TO BE WATCHING THIS RIGHT NOW. SO HOW TO MAKE A GOOD POLITICAL IMPRESSION WHEN YOU MIGHT ONLY HAVE A FEW SECONDS AT BEST? HOW MANY VOTES IS A FIRST IMPRESSION WORTH? WITH JUST TWO MONTHS TO GO UNTIL EARLY VOTING OPENS, POLITICIANS ARE RIGHT NOW CAREFULLY SHARPENING THEIR RESPECTIVE IMAGES AS THEY HEAD OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. WHENA OWEN SPOKE TO EXPERTS ON THE PART-SCIENCE, PART-ART, PART-VIBE OF POLITICAL BRANDING. (PENSIVE ELECTRONIC MUSIC) WE LIVE IN A VISUAL AGE WHERE PERSONAL IMAGE IS OFTEN CAREFULLY CURATED. SUPERFICIAL? MAYBE, BUT CRITICAL FOR POLITICIANS, AND THEY KNOW IT. NO DYING THESE LOCKS, BABY. (LAUGHTER) SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTION ` RIGHT HONOURABLE WINSTON PETERS. WELL, HOW COME THE CURTAINS DON'T MATCH THE CARPET? (LAUGHTER) BUT PRESENTATION CAN BE A SERIOUS BUSINESS. SOMETIMES, THOSE MEDIA IMAGES, THAT FOOTAGE CAN PLAY A ROLE IN THE MAKING AND BREAKING OF A POLITICAL CAREER. VOTERS CAN GET A LOT OF INFORMATION AND SENSE ABOUT A POLITICIAN FROM THE WAY THEY LOOK. ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR JENNIFER LEES-MARSHMENT AT AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY LECTURES IN AND HAS AUTHORED BOOKS ON POLITICAL MARKETING. SO, WHAT'S IMPORTANT IN AN IMAGE IS WHERE THEY ARE, WHO THEY'RE WITH, BUT ALSO WHAT THEY'RE WEARING. SO, THERE'S A LOT OF STRATEGIC THINKING THAT GOES INTO AN IMAGE AND A LOT OF CAREFUL, TACTICAL THINKING AND PLANNING PUT INTO TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT IMAGE IS GONNA RESONATE POSITIVELY WITH VOTERS. FEELING ALL RIGHT, CHRIS? FEELING GOOD. READY TO GO. SO WHAT MESSAGES ARE OUR CURRENT PARTY LEADERS TRYING TO CONVEY? A FORMAL JACKET IS THE CENTRE OF A CLASSIC STYLING. PURPOSELY LEAVING A TIE OFF SHOWS IT'S BRINGING A SLIGHTLY NATURAL ELEMENT IN THAT, 'I'M STILL DOWN TO EARTH, AND I'M STILL APPROACHABLE.'. WITH A PSYCHOLOGY DEGREE BEHIND HER, SUZANNE FAHEY HAS CONSULTED TO POLITICIANS ON MANAGING THEIR APPEARANCE. THE FIRST ADVICE SHE GIVES THEM IS... TO BE CLEAR ON THE MESSAGE THAT YOU'RE GIVING. THERE WILL BE A LOT OF CONSULTANTS AND ADVISERS AND PARTY STAFF AND POLITICAL STAFF WHO WILL HAVE SPENT TIME THINKING, 'WELL, WHAT KIND OF IMAGE DOES CHRISTOPHER LUXON WANT TO PRESENT 'TO VOTERS TO GET THEM TO SWITCH BACK TO NATIONAL AND HELP THEM WIN?' AND THE SAME WITH CHRIS HIPKINS. HOW DO THEY MAKE CHRIS HIPKINS LESS A MINISTER OF JACINDA ARDERN'S GOVERNMENT AND MORE A PRIME MINISTER? (LIGHT, QUIRKY MUSIC) OK, CHRIS HIPKINS THERE. STRONG COLOURS, CLASSIC SUITING. AND THE MESSAGE THAT WE READ FROM SOMEBODY IN THAT STYLE IS THAT HE'S CONSCIENTIOUS, HE'S RELIABLE, AND HE'S TRUSTWORTHY. VOTERS ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS THEM, SO THEY'VE ALSO GOTTA BE SOMETIMES OUT OF THAT SUIT AND NOT WEARING A TIE, NOT WEARING A FORMAL DRESS IF THEY'RE A WOMAN, AND INSTEAD, YOU KNOW, OUT IN AMONGST PEOPLE ` YOU KNOW, AT THE PETROL PUMP WHERE PEOPLE ARE FILLING UP AND IT'S THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, MAKING SURE THEY'RE PHYSICALLY SEEN AS LISTENING TO PEOPLE SOMETIMES RATHER THAN JUST TALKING AND PROJECTING. COS VOTERS WANT TO SEE A POLITICIAN WHO'S LISTENING AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, AMONGST LOTS OF DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE AND DIFFERENT CULTURAL GROUPS, DIFFERENT GENDERS, DIFFERENT AGES. IT'S QUITE A HARD TASK, PARTICULARLY FOR THE MAJOR PARTY LEADERS, FOR THE TWO CHRIS'S TO BE SEEN AS, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING TO EVERYBODY. YEP, OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, MOST PHOTO OPS ARE CHOREOGRAPHED, BUT THERE'S A WATCHFUL EYE AMONG A CANDIDATE'S HANDLERS FOR POTENTIAL GAFFES. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, A GOOD ARTY PHOTO THAT HAS REALLY NICE, BRILLIANT LIGHT BEHIND SOMEBODY'S HEAD COULD BE MISUSED IN A POLITICAL SITUATION, COS IT MIGHT MAKE THEM SEEM LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO BE LIKE THE MESSIAH OR GOD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. IF YOU HAVE A LEADER WALKING A PLANK TO A BOAT ` LIKE DON BRASH, FOR EXAMPLE ` THEN IT MIGHT BE SEEN AS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ABOUT TO FALL OFF AND THEY'RE ON SHAKY GROUND. ANY PROBLEMATIC IMAGE CAN BE, YOU KNOW, SPUN DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY AND COMPLETELY DERAIL YOUR CAMPAIGN. RECENTLY, THE NEW YORK TIMES FASHION EDITOR PROCLAIMED THAT AMONG POLITICIANS GLOBALLY, DAME JACINDA ARDERN HAD THE BEST GRASP OF HOW TO USE FASHION AS A POLITICAL TOOL. OUR CURRENT HIGH-PROFILE POLITICIANS AREN'T DOING TOO BADLY EITHER, ACCORDING TO THIS IMAGE CONSULTANT. DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER TALKS ABOUT FASHION ACTIVISM, SO SHE'S MAKING STATEMENTS IN THE WAY SHE DRESSES. THE USE OF ACCESSORIES ARE A WAY THAT YOU EXTEND YOUR PERSONALITY OR YOUR MESSAGE INTO YOUR VISUAL IMAGE. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THEY DO INCREDIBLY WELL WITH THE USE OF ALL THESE CULTURAL ELEMENTS. WELCOME TO WELLINGTON CENTRAL. (CHEERING) GREENS CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW, SHE RECKONS, ROCKS A SUIT WITH FLAIR, AND SHE SAYS NATIONAL'S DEPUTY LEADER NICOLA WILLIS HAS A DEFINED BRAND. BRINGING IN THE RED LIPSTICK, BECAUSE THAT ALSO GOES WITH THE CONTRASTING COLOURS AND THE BOLD LOOK, AND IT ALSO HAS BEEN SHOWN IN RESEARCH THAT WOMEN WHO WEAR BOLD LIPSTICK WHEN THEY WANT THEIR MESSAGE TO BE HEARD ARE MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL. ACT HAS BEEN PUTTING OUT ITS OWN ALTERNATIVE... ACT LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR... ONE INTERVIEW HE HAD GIVEN, HE HAD AN INCREDIBLY BRIGHT YELLOW TIE, AND I COULDN'T CONCENTRATE ON HIM, BECAUSE THE YELLOW TIE WAS OVERRIDING HIS FEATURES. THAT'S HIS PARTY COLOUR ANYWAY ` YELLOW AND PINK. YEAH, THAT'S PROBABLY THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE ` (LAUGHS) THE SUIT IS PARTY COLOURING. (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) THE PINK AND YELLOW REBRANDING OF ACT, DR LEES-MARSHMENT SAYS, IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE IMAGE MAKEOVER IN NEW ZEALAND POLITICS IN THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS. IT HELPS GET ATTENTION, SO THEN IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE MORE LIKELY TO AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, NOTICE WHAT YOU SAY. OF COURSE, THEY THEN HAVE TO LIKE IT. WITH PARTIES DRAWING ON DATA ANALYTICS, BE PREPARED FOR AN ONSLAUGHT OF POLITICAL MESSAGES JUST FOR YOU. THIS POLITICAL SCIENTIST WARNS THAT VOTERS SHOULD LOOK BEHIND THE IMAGE FOR SUBSTANCE. THAT GOES FOR POLITICIANS TOO. THE FIRST STEP IS ACTUALLY GETTING DECENT POLICIES ON A PRODUCT THAT VOTERS WANT; THE SECOND STEP IS IMAGING. IT SHOULDN'T BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU ` THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY ALEX WALKER AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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