GOOD MORNING ` ATA MARIE. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU ` WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. THIS MORNING ` HOW WILL NEW ZEALAND TAKE ON BIG TECH? BROADCASTING MINISTER WILLIE JACKSON JOINS US LIVE. RIDING HIGH IN THE POLLS ` ACT PARTY LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR'S PRE-ELECTION INTERVIEW. AND ANDREW LITTLE LAUNCHES NEW ZEALAND'S FIRST NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 THE GOVERNMENT IS FINALLY TAKING ON BIG TECH ` LEGISLATION FORCING BIG TECH TO PAY FOR NEW ZEALAND JOURNALISM CONTENT IS HEADING TO CABINET NEXT WEEK, ON IT'S WAY TO THE HOUSE SHORTLY AFTER. IT COMES AS GOOGLE AND META HAVE PULLED NEWS CONTENT IN CANADA OVER SIMILAR MOVES BY THE TRUDEAU GOVERNMENT. BROADCASTING MINISTER WILLIE JACKSON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. THE MORNING. WE ARE ALL EARS. THIS IS ABOUT THE WESTPORT NEWS, JUSTICE AND EQUITY FOR NEWS PRODUCERS WHO HAVEN'T HAD ANYTHING BASICALLY OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS, AND YOU KNOW BEING A JOURNALIST HOW MANY OF YOUR FRIENDS HAVE SUFFERED BECAUSE OF THE BIG COMPANIES JUST TAKING NEWS AND NOT GETTING ANY THE LITTLE PLAYER NOT GETTING ANY COMPENSATION. SO THIS IS ABOUT LEVELLING THE BARGAINING FIELD AND GIVING THEM AN OPPORTUNITY, SO WE WILL BRING IN THE PROCESS IF THEY CAN'T REACH A DEAL. I HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED BY THE INDUSTRY. THEY WERE SAYING THAT THEY NEED A CHANCE. THEY WILL BE PLEASED BY THE SUPPORT FOR THIS. THIS IS BASICALLY LEGISLATION THAT SITS IN THE BACKGROUND SO THAT IF MEDIA ORGANISATIONS AND BIG ONLINE PLATFORMS LIKE GOOGLE AND FACEBOOK CAN'T SUCCESSFULLY NEGOTIATE, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THEY WILL STEP IN AND DO IT FOR THEM. THEY JUST WOULDN'T NEGOTIATE. THEY JUST WOULDN'T. WE HAD THAT NPA, AND THEY WOULDN'T DO IT. SO THE NPA CAN ACTUALLY DO IT. WASN'T UNTIL I STARTED TALKING ABOUT IT THAT THE DEAL STARTED TO HAPPEN, AND DEALS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING AND I'M PLEASED TO SEE THAT. AT PLACES LIKE THE SPINOFF AND TV NZ. LESS THINGS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING. GOOGLE HAVE BEEN DOING DEALS. THEY DON'T WANT THE LEGISLATION, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT PROVIDES A BACKSTOP AND SUPPORT. AND EVERYONE I KNOW IN THE INDUSTRY WANTS IT APART FROM SOMEONE LIKE MELISSA LEE WHO WAS A BIT CONFUSED ABOUT THE WHOLE THING. WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU GOING TO DO? WHAT OTHER MECHANISMS BECAUSE OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN PRETTY TOUGH ON THIS, HOW TOUGH ARE YOU GOING TO BE? AUSTRALIA HAS BEEN VERY GOOD. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REASONABLE. WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS SIT DOWN AND DO A DEAL. FOR YOU DO IF THEY DON'T? WE DON'T WANT TO GO DOWN THE TRACK BUT BOY HAVEN'T WORKED OUT WHAT THE FINES WILL BE, AND IF THEY DON'T SIT DOWN AND TALK THROUGH THIS PRODUCTIVELY, AND TALK ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTION THAT THE GREYMOUTH STAR IS MAKING, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THAT LIKE MATURE PEOPLE. THIS IS THE PROCESS THAT GOING FORWARD THAT WILL BE SUPPORTED. THE INDUSTRY IS ALMOST UNANIMOUS WITH THIS. NZME WAS SHOCKED THAT MELISSA LEE COULD NOT SUPPORT THIS. THIS IS ABOUT LOOKING AFTER THE LITTLE PERSON. WILL THERE BE PENALTIES? THE TRIBUNAL SITS THERE IN THE BACKGROUND. THERE IS AN OBLIGATION ON THE TWO PARTIES TO GET TOGETHER. IF THE BIG TECH COMPANY DOES NOT GET TOGETHER, THEY WILL BE FORCED TO COME TOGETHER. HOW WILL THEY BE FORCED? WILL THEY BE PUT IN ARBITRATION? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN. THEY HAVEN'T HAD TO DO THAT IN AUSTRALIA BECAUSE WHO WANTS TO DO THAT? IF THERE IS A TOTAL REFUSAL FROM THE BIG TECH COMPANY TO MEET WITH THE MEDIA ORGANISATION, I THINK THAT` WE ARE SEEING IT NOW. WE'VE GOT 40 DEALS HAPPENING, BUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO'VE DONE DEALS STILL WANT THE LEGISLATION. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PENALTIES. IF THEY CAN'T GET A DEAL DONE OR IF THEY WERE COME TO THE TABLE. AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ARBITRATION. THAT WOULD BE THE NORMAL PROCESS AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FINES WILL BE. BE I THINK COMMON SENSE TAKES OVER. DO A DEAL. NEW ZEALAND HAVE LOST 50% OF OUR JOURNALIST IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS. THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR KIWI JOURNALISTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, FOR NEWS PUBLISHERS. WHAT DOES GOOGLE SAY ABOUT IT? THEY DON'T WANT THE LEDGE? THEY DON'T WANT IT, BUT THEY HAVE DONE SOME GOOD DEALS AND THERE IS NO THREATS OF THEM PULLING OUT. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN CANADA. THEY WERE NOT GETTING ANY NEWS BECAUSE OF A COUNTERPOINT TO THE LEGISLATION THAT THEY HAVE INTRODUCED, THAT COULD HAPPEN HERE. HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU RECKON GOOGLE MADE? 850 MILLION. THEY PULLED THE CONTENT IN CANADA SO YOU CAN'T DENY THAT THAT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE. SO YOU ARE THE CEO OF GOOGLE? THIS DEAL, LOOKING AFTER THE INDUSTRY WILL COST YOU 40 OR 50, YOU ARE STILL WALKING AWAY WITH 800. BUT YOU ARE TALKING TO GOOGLE, NOT ME. THE REALITY IS THAT WE HAVE TO CONTINUE THIS. THIS IS PART OF THE PROCESS, PEOPLE GET THREATENED. THEY MEET AT 850 MILLION LAST YEAR. THERE WILL BE PLENTY IN OUR INDUSTRY WHO SAY THIS IS TAKEN TOO LONG. YOU'VE BEEN RUNNING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION CHASING A PUBLIC BROADCASTING MERGER, THIS IS WHERE THE REAL WORK COULD BE DONE. WITH GOT A LOT OF OTHER THINGS UP. IT HAS TAKEN TOO LONG, BUT THE MAIN POINT AS IT IS IN NOW AND ANY RIGHT-THINKING PERSON OR RIGHT-THINKING PARTY WOULD SUPPORT THIS. BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO GET ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE MEDIA. I WANT TO SWITCH FOCUS TO RNZ. IT COST $230,000. DO WE GET BANG FOR BUCK? THERE IS A TOP LINE OF PEOPLE THERE. THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. WE HAD NO CHOICE. WE HAD THREE OF THE TOP PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS. YOU ARE ALMOST TALKING ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY. WE HAVE TO PULL EVERY` YOU CAN'T SKIMP ON AND GET REBECCA AND JACK CAME TO INVESTIGATE. WITH RESPECT, YOU DON'T HAVE THE BACKGROUND AND EXPERIENCE THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE. BUT IT WAS PRETTY BASIC STUFF. IN TERMS OF THE REPORT THEY CAME BACK? YOU STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS FROM ONE 200. YOU CAN'T SPARE THE EXPENSE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NATIONAL DEMOCRACY. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A NATIONAL RADIO STATION, WE WANT THE PUBLIC TO FEEL COMFORTABLE. IT MIGHT NOT SEEM LIKE A LOT, WE KNOW THAT IS NOT BEING UNDERMINED WE KNOW THAT IT WAS ONLY ONE JOURNALIST. I WAS PLEASED WITH THE FINAL RESULT PARTICULARLY PLEASED WITH THE WORK OF THE CHAIRMAN. IT WAS INTERESTING TO BRING UP THE CHAIRMAN BECAUSE HE WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE CRITICISED IN THE REPORT AS OVERREACTING. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? THEY WERE PROBABLY RIGHT, IT WAS AN EMOTIONAL TIME. WE DON'T PAY OUR CHAIRMAN TO BE EMOTIONAL. YOU ARE LOOKING AT IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOUR SEEING ALL OF THESE REPORTS BEING EDITED, OF COURSE HE GOT A BIT CARRIED AWAY WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE KREMLIN, BUT HE HAS BEEN A STEADY HAND AND I THINK THEY ARE ON TRACK NOW. HAVE GOT ALL THE RESOURCES IN PLACE. I WANT TO KNOW AFTER READING THAT REPORT, WHAT THEY ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE STRUCTURAL CHANGES AND THAT THE DIGITAL TEAM LET'S GO UNDER THE NEWSROOM. MOST NEWSROOMS DID THAT YEARS AGO. THIS ISN'T USE MANAGEMENT THAT WAS FOUND LACKING HERE. WHY WASN'T THAT ALREADY DONE? WHY DO WE NEED THREE PEOPLE TO PAY 230 GRAND TO DO IT? WITH PUT A 60% INVESTMENT` THESE ARE STRUCTURAL CHANGES THAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE AGES AGO. SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE STRUCTURE IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE FUNDING AND SUPPORT THEIR. YOU CAN'T JUST PAY FOR SOMEONE WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY. YOU JUST WANTED SOME OF THE MONEY. COME TO ME NEXT TIME. FINAL QUESTION ON RNZ, WHAT HAPPENED WITH JASON AKE? IN TERMS OF THE MAORI BROADCASTING, HE WAS A GUY WHO WAS A POLITICAL ADVISER BEFORE, HE KNOWS THE SYSTEM. IT WAS NO SURPRISE THAT HE GOT TOLD TO FULLERTON. WHY WAS HE HIRED? HE JUST WOKE UP ONE DAY AND IT WAS ALL TOO MUCH. IT MIGHT LAST LONGER THAN A WEEK. I SUSPECT THE KIRITAPU ALLAN STUFF GOT TO HIM. DIDN'T YOU HIRE HIM? THE CABINET HIRED HIM. I TALK TO HIM AFTERWARDS, AND I SAID WHAT ARE YOU DOING? HE WASN'T ASKED TO RESIGN, HE'S A GOOD MAN AND HAS SOME PRINCIPLES. BUT HE HAVE AN EPIPHANY ONE DAY. IT CAN HAPPEN AND EAT YOU GOT TO RESPECT THAT. SURELY HE COULD HAVE HAD THE EPIPHANY BEFORE HE WAS HIRED. HE TICKED ALL THE BOXES TO BE HIRED; HE HAD THE BACKGROUND AND WORK READY NEW ZEALAND, BEING A POLITICAL ADVISER. PEOPLE WAKE UP ONE DAY... PERHAPS NOT THE TEMPERAMENT. I THINK THE KIRITAPU ALLAN STUFF REALLY AFFECTED HIM AND HE WANTED TO GIVE A VIEW, AN OFFER TO RESPECT THAT. DID GET PAID? TO GET PAID FOR...? LET'S TALK ABOUT POLITICS GOING ON IN THE POLLS THIS WEEK. YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT... IF YOU'RE IN THE NATIONAL PARTY YOU WOULD BE 10% AHEAD. HERE WE ARE, LABOUR RIGHT IN THE RACE. WE PROBABLY HAD THE WORST TWO MONTHS THAT YOU'VE SEEN FROM THE GOVERNMENT. ALL OF SEEN AS A DUMPSTER FIRE IN THE CABINET ROOM. IT TELLS YOU THAT NEW ZEALANDERS DON'T REALLY WANT LUXTON OR SEYMOUR. THE REALITY IS THAT WE ARE RIGHT IN THE RACE, WE HAD A NIGHTMARE LAST TWO MONTHS, AND IF YOU ARE LISTENING TO YOU LOT, WE SHOULD BE 15% BEHIND. THE CABINET HAS DONE A NUMBER ON PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS. FOUR MINISTERS GONE. HE'S A BRILLIANT PRIME MINISTER. AMONGST THE NIGHTMARE, HE GOES UP. LET'S BE CLEAR, IT'S BEEN A NIGHTMARE LAST FEW WEEKS. WE ARE STILL BUILDING HOUSING THAN NATIONAL EVER DID. NICOLA WILLIS TRIPPED OVER HER WORDS. SHE HAD A TERRIBLE WEEK. IT WAS CRASS WHAT SHE SAID THE OTHER DAY. THAT WAS UNFORTUNATE. BUT TAKING GST OF FRUIT AND VEGETABLES COULD HAVE FIXED IT FOR YOU. WE HAVEN'T ANNOUNCED ANYTHING. YOU'VE DONE EVERYTHING BUT. IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO TALK ABOUT. IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR WHANAU RIGHT? THAT TYPE OF YOU HAS BEEN PUT TO ME FOR YEARS. IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT. IT IS NOT SOMETHING GOING TO ANNOUNCE A YOUR SHOW. THIS MORE FOR FAMILIES COMING. LIKE A HERO POLICY UP YOUR SLEEVE? THIS IS NOT A TIME TO BE TALKING ABOUT POLICY, BUT WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT TAX AND WHAT WE WANT TO DO OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, THIS NEXT FEW WEEKS COMING UP IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, BUT I WANT TO SAY OUR COURSE HAS NEVER BEEN STRONGER. WE ARE NOT SPLIT AND BROKEN LIKE THE NATIONAL PARTY WERE WITH TODD MULLER. BUT YOU ARE MISSING A FEW KEY MEMBERS. OF LOST THREE OR FOUR, BUT THINGS COULDN'T BE BETTER. PAID PARENTAL LEAVE, WHY DON'T YOU SUPPORT THAT? WE PUSH THAT THROUGH WHEN I WAS ON THE ALLIANCE BACK IN 2000. BUT WHY SHOULDN'T PARENTS DECIDE WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM? THESE REASONS ON WHY. YOU HEARD SOME OF THE REASONS. YOUR PERSONAL VIEW. WE ARE ALREADY DOING ENOUGH FOR FAMILIES AND FOR MOTHERS AND NO ONE HAS DONE MORE FOR MOTHERS THAN THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT, WITH SUPPORTED FAMILIES AND WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT WHANAU. THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` DITA DE BONI, SUE BRADFORD AND LIAM HEHIR. PLUS, HE'S RIDING HIGH IN THE POLLS ` COULD DAVID SEYMOUR BE OUR NEXT DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER? HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. THE MINOR PARTIES ARE HAVING A MAJOR MOMENT ` THE ACT PARTY UP TO 12.1% IN OUR LATEST POLL, SUGGESTING A TWO-PARTY COALITION WITH NATIONAL COULD BE ON THE CARDS. DAVID SEYMOUR ENTERED PARLIAMENT ALONE IN 2014; NOW HE COULD BECOME DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. I SPENT SOME TIME WITH THE ACT PARTY LEADER IN HIS EPSOM ELECTORATE. OI! DAVID! (BOYS SHOUT, CHEER) HEY! HOW YOU GOIN'? DAVID SEYMOUR DOESN'T SHY AWAY FROM TAKING A CONTROVERSIAL POSITION. YOU GUYS ARE DOIN' GREAT. GOOD LUCK. BAD NEWS, GRAMMAR'S STILL GONNA WIN. (CHEERING, LAUGHTER) THE AUCKLAND GRAMMAR SCHOOL OLD BOY IS AT THE BATTLE OF THE BRIDGE, A RUGBY GRUDGE MATCH IN THE HEART OF HIS EPSOM ELECTORATE. NAH, THIS IS JUST NEWSHUB NATION. THEY'RE JUST` THEY'RE TRYING TO GET SOME PICTURES OF ME OUT ON THE WILD. WE'RE HERE TO SEE HIM TALK TO THE RIVALS ` CATHOLIC COLLEGE ST. PETER'S. IN SPITE OF MY, UM, GODLESS ADVOCACY OF ABORTION AND EUTHANASIA AND WORSE STILL... MM? ...BEING A GRAMMAR BOY, THEY INVITED ME TO GIVE A SPEECH. SO WE'LL TRY AND GIVE THEM A BIT OF ENTERTAINMENT AND ALSO TRY NOT TO SAY ANYTHING THAT'LL RUIN MY WIDER POLITICAL CAREER. (LAUGHS) THAT'S ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY, ISN'T IT? IT'S AN EVER-PRESENT DANGER, I FIND. THEY SEEM TO LIKE HIS JOKES... I HAVEN'T BEEN KICKED OFF YET. THIS IS GOING WELL. UM... (LAUGHS) (LAUGHTER) ...AND HIS POLITICS. BUT YOU HAVE MY SUPPORT. OH, THANK YOU. HI. IT'S A LONG WAY FROM SEYMOUR'S FIRST INTRODUCTION, IN 2014. HI. I'M DAVID SEYMOUR. THE EPSOM DEAL WITH NATIONAL GOT HIM IN, BUT THE PARTY VOTE ELUDED HIM IN 2017. ACT WON JUST 0.5%. WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE DONE BETTER FOR ACT. BUT HE WAS QUIRKY, TWERKY... AND ANNOYING, FOR SOME. GO BACK TO EPSOM! DON'T COME OUT HERE TO SOUTH AUCKLAND AND MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF. SO, ONE PANDEMIC AND ONE ELECTION LATER, SEYMOUR WAS RIDING HIGH, BRINGING ANOTHER NINE MPs IN WITH HIM. SINCE THEN, HE'S STILL ANNOYED PEOPLE. JACINDA ARDERN CALLED HIM... FIVE ` NICOLA WILLIS. JACINDA: ARE YOU AN ARROGANT PRICK? CHUCKLES: NO. (BOYS SHOUT, CHEER) BUT ON CURRENT POLLING, THAT SO-CALLED ARROGANT POLITICIAN MIGHT BE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER. WITH ME NOW IS ACT PARTY LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. GOOD VIBES THERE AND YOUR ELECTORATE. YOU DON'T ALWAYS GET THE TONE RIGHT DO YOU? GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE. THE KIRI ALLEN DEBATE. LABOUR COURTED A JERK MOVE, GREENS CALLED IT SHAMEFUL. WAS A POLITICAL POINT SCORING WITHOUT ANY EMPATHY? IT WAS ABOUT THE FACT THAT A MINISTER HAD RESIGNED, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A MINISTER RESIGNS, THE BAIT THAT I PUT FORWARD WAS HONOURABLE AND RESPECTFUL OF KIRITAPU ALLAN AND HER PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. IT HAD A LOT OF LABOUR BASHING ON IT AS WELL. I THINK THE LABOUR PARTY HAS DONE A HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE TO NEW ZEALAND. AND I GET ALL THAT, BUT YOU NEED TO MAKE THOSE POINT IN A DEBATE ABOUT A MINISTER WHO'S RESIGNED OVER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND INCOMING CHARGES? YOU COULD JUST MAKE THOSE POLITICAL POINTS LIKE YOU NORMALLY DO. IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THE CRITICISM WAS OF THE GOVERNMENT. IT WAS LABOUR IN THE GOVERNMENT THAT INTRODUCED ME INTO THE DEBATE, THEY USE THAT AS A SHIELD AGAINST CRITICISM OF THE GOVERNMENT, AND I FIND THAT QUITE DISGRACEFUL. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT PEOPLE MAKE THAT CRITICISM. I'M DOING MY JOB AS A OPPOSITION MP. IT WAS LABOUR THAT DECIDED TO MAKE IT ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH. IT IS YOU WHO IS MAKING IT ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH. BUT THAT DEBATE WAS ABOUT THE RESIGNATION OF A MINISTER WHO RESIGNED BY THAT TIME THAT DEBATE IT HAPPENED. THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE GOVERNMENT THAT LED TO IT INCLUDING THE CIRCUMSTANCES GOING FORWARD SUCH AS HER NOT BEING ABLE TO PLACED. I AM STANDING BY IT FOR THE REASONS I'VE GIVEN. LET'S TALK HEALTH AND HEALTH POLICY. MAORI LIVES YEARS LESS THAN NON-MAORI. WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS TO REDUCE THAT? IT'S PUT THAT FACT THE LITTLE BIT OF CONTEXT. YOU'VE GO BACK 70 YEARS, THERE WAS A 20 YEAR GAP BETWEEN MAORI AND NON-MAORI LIFE EXPENDED TO YOU NEW ZEALAND. THAT MEANS IN THE LAST 70 YEARS, THE GAP IS CLOSED BY 13, MAORI LIFE EXPENDED C HAS INCREASED OVER TWICE AS RAPIDLY AS NON-MAORI LIFE EXPECTANCY, AND I THINK PEOPLE FORGET THAT. WE ARE A MODERN` WHAT DO WE DO TO CONTINUE CLOSING THE GAP? IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE HEALTHCARE IT SHOULD BE TARGETED BASED ON THE NEEDS OF PEOPLE. I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN TARGET HEALTHCARE IN THE SYSTEMS IS BY LAZILY RACIALLY PROFILING PEOPLE. IF YOU START SAYING THAT A PERSON IS DEFINED BY THEIR RACE, YOU MISS THINGS ABOUT THEM. YOU MISS PEOPLE WHO ARE MAORI WHO ARE PERFECTLY HEALTHY. IMPLICATION IS THAT MOTHERS WHO ARE MAORI NEED TO BE BRIBED TO COME INTO GONE THE KID, THAT IS WRONG. IT IS ALSO TRUE IN SOME CASES AND WOMEN THAT ARE NOT MAORI. THESE STATS DO NOT LIE. THEY'D GET MISREPRESENTED. THE SECOND WAY THAT YOU GET IT WRONG IS THAT ACTUALLY THERE ARE NON-MAORI PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE THE NEED TO HAVE` ARE ALSO MISSED. WHILE YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THE STATES DON'T LIKE, THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE. LET'S TAKE THAT BACK BUT THERE IS AN EQUITY IN THE HEALTH SYSTEMS, AND YOU WANT TO SCRAP THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, THAT IS A WAY OF TARGETING HEALTH DELIVERY TO REDUCE THE INEQUITY AND SERVICE DELIVERY. YOU MUST MAORI PEOPLE WHO DO NEED THE HELP AND NON-MAORI. THERE BETTER WAYS TO TARGET INEQUITIES. DELIVERY OF HEALTH SERVICES IS THE WAY TO GO, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE SELF DETERMINATION? SO YOU VIEW PEOPLE AS AN ETHNICITY. APART FROM THE FACT THAT IT IS INACCURATE, THESE TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE, MAORI WHO DON'T NEED THE HELP AND NON-MAORI WHO DO, IT'S ALSO DIVISIVE BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY THAT A PERSON IS PRIMARILY AN ETHNICITY, THEY WOULD GET RESENTFUL. YOU SEE ONLY A FEATURE THAT CAN NEVER CHANGE. I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A SEC. IF THERE'S GOING TO BE TARGETING, SHOULD BE BASED ON NEED. AND YOU'VE SAID THAT ALREADY. YOU TALK ABOUT SELF-DETERMINATION. THERE IS NO REASON WHY YOU SHOULDN'T EVOLVE AND LET COMMUNITY GROUPS GIVE SERVICE THAT WORKS FOR THE PEOPLE. SO THAT HAPPENS ALREADY IS, SO WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT? YOU DON'T NEED A SET AUTHORITY. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I WANT TO MOVE ON. I WANT TO MOVE ONTO THIS ISSUE OF PARTNERSHIP. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR WHOLE APPROACH TO RACE RELATIONS. YOU WE ARE A SIGNATORY OF THE UNITED NATIONS OF PEOPLE'S RIGHTS AND THAT RECOGNISES SELF-DETERMINATION. I THINK THAT WAS A MISTAKE. HOW WE ARE NEW ZEALAND` THE IDEA THAT NEW ZEALAND ONE OF THE MOST EQUITABLE SHOULD BE DICTATED TO BY THE UNITED NATIONS WHERE EVERYONE GETS A EQUAL VOTE. THIS SO THAT OUT THERE. THESE RIGHTS HAVE BEEN RECOGNISED BY COURTS AND PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS, THEY ARE ALL ENTRENCHED IN NEW ZEALAND SOCIETY. YOU ARE SAYING LET'S GET RID OF THAT. YOU STARTED THIS INTERVIEW BY ARGUING THAT THEY ARE NOT WORKING. IF THESE ARE ACCEPTED, ITS POLITICAL OPPORTUNISM. NOT AT ALL, AND IF YOU ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN WHERE WERE COMING FROM YOU WILL SEE THAT IS UNTRUE. IF YOU LOOK AT DEVOLVING SERVICES, ACCESS BEING AT THE FOREFRONT, WHEN WE HAD NO POLITICAL CAPITAL, THEY PUT FORWARD IDEAS` TO DO BELIEVE IN PARTNERSHIP. DO YOU THINK WE COULD JUST FINISH A SMALL INSERT TWO SENTENCES IN A ROW? IT'S NOT GOING TO BE PEOPLE FROM IWI. THERE WERE ALSO SOME THAT HAD NO ETHNIC CONNECTION WHATSOEVER. WE DON'T HAVE A VISION OF NEW ZEALAND WHERE THERE IS TWO TYPES OF NEW ZEALANDERS. WE HAVE A VISION OF THE SAME RIGHTS AND DUTIES, SO WE CAN DEVOLVE TO PACIFIC AND MAORI AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE AN ETHNIC PROFILE. SO YOU SAY THAT'S POLITICAL OPPORTUNISM, THAT IS CYNICAL AND WRONG ON YOUR PART. WE HAVE A VISION WHERE NEW ZEALANDERS ALL HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND DUTIES. AND WE FOCUS ON OUR COMMON HUMANITY RATHER THAN DIVIDING OURSELVES. LET'S MOVE ON. I'M GOING TO MOVE ONTO THE NEXT SECTION. LET'S TALK ABOUT TAX. WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT THE SELECTION. YOU HAVE A TWO LEVEL TAX PLAN. THOSE WHO EARN LESS PAY MORE TAX AND THOSE WHO ARE MORE PAY LESS TAX. THAT IS TRUE. IF YOU TAKE THE TIME` YOU CAN READ ALTERNATIVE BUDGET OR LET ME DESCRIBE IT. IS THAT YOU WILL NOT? WHY IS IT NOT TRUE? EVERY SINGLE EARNER WILL END UP BETTER OFF. YOU WILL BE TOPPING IT UP. YOU WILL GET A LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME TAX BRACKET AND A TEXT DIVIDEND, SO AS NEW ZEALANDERS ARE EARNING MONEY. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE INCOME LEVEL, YOU WILL PAY LESS TAX IF YOU EARN AN EXTRA DOLLAR. AND THAT IS WHAT IT IS ABOUT. YOU ARE TOPPING UP THE BOTTOM LEVEL TO MAKE IT WORK, AS AN OFFSET, ALSO IN CARBON TAX CREDIT. WAY USING FUNDS TO TOP THOSE UP? IF THE INITIATIVES THAT THEY WERE FUNDING WITH THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO GET LESS CARBON IN THE AIR FOR THE AMOUNT OF MONEY GOING ON, PEOPLE WOULD ALREADY BE DOING IT TO SAVE CARBON CREDIT. EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR IN THAT CLIMATE EMERGENCY FUND HAS BEEN INEFFECTIVE. WHAT WE SAY IS THAT YOU WILL GET ABOUT $200 A YEAR BACK OUT OF THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME. IF YOU MAKE LOW CARBON CHOICES, YOU KEEP THAT MONEY. SO IT'S MORE ABOUT INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. IF YOU GO AND BUY A V8, THEN MORE OF YOUR MONEY WILL GO BACK INTO THE ETS. IT SEEMS A BIT COMPLICATED. TO TAX PEOPLE MORE AND THEN TOPPED THEM UP. AS SEEMS LIKE RED TAPE. WE HAVE AN EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME. THE MONEY IS BEING GIVEN TO THE BUSINESSES. WE SAY IT SHOULD GO TO NEW ZEALAND FAMILIES. EVERY SINGLE PERSON GETS STEPPED IN AND A HALF PERCENT TAX RATE. WE SHOULD STOP THAT. PEOPLE WHO ARE READY HARD UP, THEY SHOULD GET A CREDIT. WHY DO YOU DO THAT? ALTOGETHER WE GO FROM SIX TAX RATES DOWN TO 2 TAX RATES. THERE TO TALK ABOUT THE WEALTH GAP IN NEW ZEALAND. THE TOP 1% SEEMINGLY HAVE ABOUT 20%. THE BOTTOM NEW ZEALAND HAVE ABOUT 2%. IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO YOU? YOU TELL ME WHAT THE GAP SHOULD BE, AND DO YOU WANT MORE WEALTHY PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND OR LESS? IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE THEIR WEALTH AWAY THEN VOTE FOR THE GREENS AND LABOUR, AND THEY WERE PUT IN PLACE TAXES THAT WILL CHASE WEALTH AWAY. YOU WERE SAYING THAT VOTING FOR YOU IS VOTING FOR MAINTAINING THAT WEALTH GAP BETWEEN THE TOP OF THE BOTTOM? THERE SEEMS TO BE THE IMPLICATION. I DON'T RESENT PEOPLE BEING SUCCESSFUL. I DON'T WANT TO PUT IN PLACE TAXES. I KNOW THAT'S PROBABLY YOUR NEXT QUESTION. IF WE WANT TO HAVE A CULTURE OF ENVY WITH THE GREEN PARTY FOR EXAMPLE SAY ONLY ZERO POINT 7% PEOPLE HAVE THIS WEALTH, IT'S OKAY TO TAKE THIS MONEY OF THIS SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE, THAT WON'T WORK FOR US. WE WANT TO MAKE SUCCESS PART OF NEW ZEALAND'S CULTURE. WE WANT THE ECONOMY TO GROW AND MORE HIGH-PAYING JOBS. ALL OF THOSE, EVERYBODY GETS THAT? WE ARE THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE SET OUT HOW YOU DO IT IN CONSIDERABLE DETAIL. BEFORE WE GO, THIS IS PROBABLY YOUR MOMENT IN THE SUN IN TERMS OF POLITICAL LEVERAGE. YOU RULED OUT WINSTON PETERS. IS JUST A SIMPLE MATTER OF ETHICS. YOU CAN'T HAVE SOMEONE SITTING AROUND THE CABINET TABLE WHO HAS A SEPARATE TRUST WITH ALL THE POLITICAL DONATIONS GO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHO'S GIVING THEM THE MONEY YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT'S CONNECTED TO DECISIONS HE MAKES AROUND THE CABINET TABLE. IS NOT AROUND TO PUSH BACK ON THAT, BUT YOU SAY IT IS A MATTER OF TRUST. IF YOU WERE IN A COALITION, AND I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE TALKING ABOUT THIS, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE EDUCATION MINISTER? I WILL SERVE IN THE ROLE THAT IS REQUIRED. WHAT'S IMPORTANT FOR ACT IS THAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO GET OVER THE INFLATION, THE LAWLESSNESS AND THE DIVISION. IF THAT'S THE ROLE, BUT BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT POLICIES FOR PEOPLE. WOULD YOU SAY THAT THIS IS YOUR MOMENT IN THE SUN, THE TIME WE HAVE THE MOST LEVERAGE? I'M NOT INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT . ME I'M INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT HOW WE ADDRESS THE CONCERNS AROUND INFLATION LAWLESSNESS AND DIVISION. AND UNITED WITH THE VISION. THOSE YOUR TALKING POINTS. A MURI AKE NEI - WE'LL DISSECT THIS WEEK'S POLITICS WITH OUR PANEL, DITA DE BONI, SUE BRADFORD AND LIAM HEHIR. PLUS ` ARE WE LOSING OUR INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY? DEFENCE MINISTER ANDREW LITTLE DEFENDS NEW ZEALAND'S CONTROVERSIAL NEW SECURITY STRATEGY. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER GREEN MP SUE BRADFORD, NBR SENIOR JOURNALIST DITA DE BONI AND BARRISTER, SOLICITOR AND NATIONAL PARTY MEMBER LIAM HEHIR. TENA KOUTOU ` WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. WE SAW WILLIE JACKSON OUTLINING HOW TO TAKE ON BIG ATTACK. DITA, DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING TO CREATE A WAR WITH BIG DECK, OR IS IT JUST THE WAY WE GO? EXACTLY. THAT IS WHAT I WAS A BIT SURPRISED ABOUT HIM SAYING, THAT THE INDUSTRY COULDN'T GET TOGETHER. IT HAS RECEIVED A LOT OF MONEY FROM GOOGLE AND HIRED A LOT OF JOURNALISTS. THERE ARE MANY PROBLEMS WITH THIS WHOLE IDEA ` IN AUSTRALIA, AN EXAMPLE, IT HAS MEANT A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY HAS GONE TO RUPERT MURDOCH AND VERY LITTLE TO MINOR INDEPENDENT OUTLETS BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE LAW IS WRITTEN. I KNOW WILLIE JACKSON WAS TALKING ABOUT THE REGIONS. HOW IMPORTANT IS IT, SO, FOR THE REGIONS, SMALL PLAYERS TO GET SOME REPRESENTATION? ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL. IT WILL BE IN THE DETAIL OF LEGISLATION THAT NONE OF US KNOW YET. IT SOUNDS LIKE HE DOESN'T KNOW EITHER. DITA MAKES A GOOD POINT. IF THOSE REGIONAL` THE MEDIA HAVE BEEN DECIMATED IN THE LAST DECADE. IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WHAT IS LEFT IS KEPT GOING AND PREFERABLY UPLIFTED AGAIN, BECAUSE WE NEED IT. IF YOU DO TAKE ON BIG ATTACK, MIGHT YOU GET WHAT IS HAPPENING IN CANADA, WHERE FACEBOOK IS PULLING...? IT IS REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE THESE SUPPOSEDLY SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE TECH OLIGARCHS. AND SO WHAT THAT GOES TO SHOW IS THE POWER THEY ENJOY. SO IMPORTANT. IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN... THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME SORT OF APPROACH ACROSS MULTIPLE COUNTRIES WHERE THERE IS AN AGREED APPROACH THAT WORKS. OTHERWISE... IT IS HARD, ISN'T IT? NOBODY SAID IT WOULD BE EASY. THEY ARE PICKING OUT INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES. SHALL BE MOVE ON TO WILLIE JACKSON AND THE POLES THAT HE WAS SAYING THEY HAD GOOD RESULTS FROM. THEY HAVE LOST A FEW, THREE OR FOUR, BUT IT IS ALL GOOD? DITA? I THINK THAT IS GLOSSING THE TURD A LITTLE BIT. BUT I THINK THE FACT THAT CHRIS HIPKINS; FAVOURABILITY RATINGS ARE STILL SO HIGH SUGGESTS IT MIGHT BE... STILL TIGHT? IS THAT A RIGHT READING? I DON'T AGREE WITH THE MINISTERS READING AT ALL. THE FACT THAT IT WON'T BE A BLOWOUT ISN'T SOMETHING TO BE COMFORTABLE ABOUT. 2008, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CHANGE FROM LABOUR TO NATIONAL, THAT WAS AFTER NINE YEARS OF HELEN CLARK. THIS IS AFTER SIX. BUT THEN THE COMBINED NATURAL AND EIGHT VOTE WAS 48. IN THE LAST POLL IT WAS SIMILAR, 49. SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THE ACT PARTY IS SO STRONG IT IS MASKING THE FACT THAT ACTUALLY THERE IS A SOLID CALCIFIED LEAD. NOT EVERY ELECTION WILL BE A BLOWOUT. YOU CAN HAVE A DECISIVE ELECTION WHERE THE GOVERNMENT LOSES BY 45 POINTS. * FOUR TO FIVE IT IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH ` THE FACT THAT DAVID SEYMOUR ACCEPTS THE WEALTH DIVIDE AND WOULD SEEK TO INCREASE IT WITH A LOW FLAT TAX... HE SAYS HE DOES NOT RESENT WORKING PEOPLE, HE IS TRYING TO INCREASE... HIS POLICIES DO. IF YOU LOOK IN THE DETAIL OF WELFARE AND POLICING, IT IS ABOUT SLAMMING INTO LOW INCOME PEOPLE, BENEFICIARIES. HIS VISION IS OF A SOCIETY WHERE THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE YOUNG PEOPLE... HE IS SAYING IT IS A DIFFERENT WAY TO BRING... IT IS VERY CLEAR YOU'VE ON FROM THAT INTERVIEW, MUCH LESS READING THE POLICIES. HE IS CALLING OUT TO THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO THE BACHELOR MEETINGS... SO YOU ARE SAYING` HE DENIES IT. DOG WHISTLING. YOU ARE HUFFING THERE. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH ACT'S TAX STANCE. FOR EXAMPLE, NATIONAL, GREENS ARE ALL IN FAVOUR OF INDEXING TAX RATES SO THAT INFLATION... ACT PARTY IS AGAINST IT ON PRINCIPLE. THE REASON THEY ARE AGAINST IT IS BECAUSE MOST OF IT WILL GO TO LOWER EARNERS. THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID THAT THEY ARE VERY INTERESTED IN THE MONEY. IN TERMS OF THE DEBATE AROUND CO-GOVERNANCE ` HE DENIED IT IS DOG WHISTLING. LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE HE IS USING RACIAL PROFILING. THESE KIND OF THINGS THAT TRIP OFF THE TONGUE. AS SOON AS SAYING, THEY ARE DOG WHISTLES TO THE KINDS OF PEOPLE` I DON'T THINK HE HIMSELF IS LIKE THAT BUT HE IS USING THE PHRASEOLOGY APPEALING TO PEOPLE LIKE THAT. DO YOU THINK IT IS DELIBERATE? CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS DOING IT AS WELL. OPPORTUNISM? ABSOLUTELY. I DON'T THINK HE IS DOG WHISTLING. I THINK HE IS GENERALLY A LIBERTARIAN. LIBERTARIAN IDEOLOGY AND EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS SIMPLISTIC AND FITS WELL. IN DAVID SEYMOUR'S DEFENCE, BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE ANTI-HIM, HE IS SAYING HE IS JUST PRESENTING THIS PARTICULAR WAY, HIS VIEW OF HOW NEW ZEALAND SHOULD BE IN TERMS OF DEMOCRACY, THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOR RACE. SO YOU DON'T AGREE? HE IS ABSOLUTELY` HE IS RIGHT. THIS IS A LIBERAL DEMOCRACY. HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO PUT THAT POSITION. I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH TALKING ABOUT DOG WHISTLING, BECAUSE EVERY POLITICIAN DOES THAT. EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO APPEAL TO CONSTITUENTS. HE IS DOING IT ON THE BACK OF HIS PARTY'S POLICIES. GOOD ON HIM. THAT IS WHAT YOU DO. THIS AS OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM. WE NEED MORE DEBATE, MORE IN-DEPTH ABATE AROUND ALL THE ISSUES. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE OF THESE OPPORTUNITIES TO DEBATE AND THINK ABOUT THE OPTIONS BETWEEN THE NATIONAL AND ACT AND GOVERNMENT, GREENS... I HOPE THERE ARE ONGOING DEBATES THAT LOOK AT THE OPTIONS ON TAX, HOW DO WE CLOSE THE GAPS RATHER THAN MAKE THEM MOIST? *WORSE? IF THERE IS A NATIONAL ACT COALITION, WHERE DO YOU THINK DAVID SEYMOUR WOULD WANT TO SIT? AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE, I AM SURE. MY ISSUE, JUST TO GO BACK TO DAVID, THE THING I THINK THAT IS WORSE ABOUT THE ACT PARTY IS THAT ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE A LOT OF YOUNG FOLLOWERS THEY ARE NOT ENGAGED ON THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, AND THEIR POLICY WANTS TO GET RID OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE ACTION, WHICH IS DISASTROUS. HE WOULD BE MORE POPULAR IF YOU TOOK A DIFFERENT STANCE ON THAT AND PUSHED NATIONAL MORE. I WANT TO FINISH OFF CIRCLING BACK TO THE POLL. CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S POPULARITY IS AN ISSUE? NOT REALLY. IT IS A PARTY VOTE THAT COUNTS. IT IS NOT LIKE CHRIS HIPKINS IS FLYING HIGH ON 24%. THAT IS INCREDIBLY LOW RATING FOR PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER. BUT IS THERE AN ISSUE? NICOLA WILLIS HAS HAD A VERY STRONG WEEK, WOULD YOU SAY? SHE HAS HAD A VERY COMICAL... TO PARTS, REALLY. SHE WAS PASSIONATE IN THE HOUSE ABOUT THE PARENTAL LEAVE, AND THEN OBVIOUSLY THERE WAS THE MISSTEP ABOUT THE FISCAL HOLE. DOES THAT MAKE IT TOUGH FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXTON, TO HAVE A STRONG DEPUTY LIKE THAT? PLAYING IT RIGHT, IT MAKES IT MUCH BETTER FOR THE PARTY THAT THEY DO HAVE THAT APPARENTLY STRONG PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THEM. FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. SO A GOOD THING? SHE HAS GOT THIS CHARISMA THAT HE LACKS, I THINK. I HAVE TO SAY I AGREE WITH SUE. IT IS STRENGTH. THREE YEARS AGO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FATAL WEAKNESS, BECAUSE AMBITION WAS TO UNCHECKED, BY THE PARTY HAS LEARNED ITS LESSON OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS. EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY HAVE TO BE ON A TEAM. WE WILL SEE HOW THE POLES TRACK. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. E WHAI AKE NEI ` SENIOR REPORTER LAURA WALTERS TAKES US TO ANDREW LITTLE'S NATIONAL SECURITY BREAKFAST AT PARLIAMENT. PLUS, NICOLA WILLIS HAD A BLINDER AND A BLUNDER (LAUGHTER AND CHATTER) (LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS) (PEOPLE GASP) (BELLOWS) Call this a feast?! Fetch more foodage! (DRAMATIC MUSIC) M'lady. (PEOPLE CHATTER) (EPIC MUSIC) (PEOPLE CHEER) Is this Greek salad? Nah, it's from New Zealand, eh! VOICEOVER: Four Square. What'll it be today? DEFENCE MINISTER ANDREW LITTLE, WHO ALSO OVERSEES OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, YESTERDAY LAUNCHED NEW ZEALAND'S FIRST NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY ` AND IT'S A BIG DEAL. OUR SENIOR REPORTER LAURA WALTERS WAS THERE AND JOINS US NOW. LAURA, SOME PRETTY SIGNIFICANT CHANGES WERE UNVEILED YESTERDAY. YOU ARE RIGHT. FROM TIME TO TIME WE HAVE THESE TYPES OF DEFENCE AND SECURITY STRATEGIES RELEASED. IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY TIME THERE IS A NEW MINISTER THERE IS A NEW STRATEGY. WE HAD ONE IN 2018 AND ANOTHER ASSESSMENT IN 2021. BUT THIS NEW DEFENCE STRATEGY POLICY STATEMENT IS LIKE THE TURBOCHARGED VERSION. LIKE YOU SAID, IT COMES WITH OUR FIRST EVER NATIONAL SECURITY STATEMENT. THEIR NAMES WILL DO YOUR HEAD IN, BUT OUR FUTURE FORCES DESIGN PRINCIPLES AS WELL SITS ALONGSIDE THAT AND TALKS ABOUT WHAT WE SHOULD PRIORITISE LOOKING AT SPENDING ON MILITARY THINGS LIKE BUYING SHIPS AND PLANES AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT. SO IT SOUNDS COMPLEX, BUT REALLY THE GUTS OF IT IS LAYING THE LANDSCAPE, ESSENTIALLY, THE GEOPOLITICAL LANDSCAPE, EXPLAINING TO NEW ZEALANDERS THAT WE NO LONGER LIVE IN THIS BENIGN WORLD, THAT THERE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT AND WE NEED TO BE BETTER PREPARED FOR IT. THESE STRATEGIES THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS PUT OUT IS TALKING ABOUT MAKING SURE OUR DEFENCE FORCE IS COMBAT CAPABLE. THAT IS A BIG CHANGE. ESSENTIALLY, AT THE MOMENT WE ARE MORE OF A HUMANITARIAN FORCE. WE DO SEARCH AND RESCUE, RESPOND TO NATURAL DISASTERS, HAVE SMALL CONFLICT DEPLOYMENTS OVERSEAS, BUT NOT RESPONDING TO CONFLICTS IN OUR OWN BACKYARD. SO THE DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO BEEF UP WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR DEFENCE FORCE, AND IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT, YOU HAVE TO LOOK ABOUT THE LAUNCH EVENT IN PARLIAMENT YESTERDAY. LET'S TAKE A LOOK. WE NOW FACE A WORLD WHICH IS RAPIDLY BECOMING MORE CHALLENGING AND COMPLEX. CLIMATE CHANGE, TERRORISM, CYBER ATTACKS, TRANSNATIONAL CRIME, MIS- AND DISINFORMATION AND COMPETITION IN OUR REGION, WHICH, UP UNTIL RECENTLY, WE THOUGHT WAS PROTECTED BY ITS REMOTENESS. BECAUSE WE KIWIS STAND FOR A PEACEFUL WORLD FOR ALL PEOPLE. IT'S WHAT WE OWE OUR CHILDREN. IT'S WHAT WE OWE OUR GRANDCHILDREN. MINISTER, ARE YOU MENTALLY PREPARING KIWIS FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF A WAR IN OUR REGION? UH, NO ONE WANTS CONFLICT. WE WANT TO LIVE IN A PEACEFUL WORLD. AND LIKE MANY OF OUR PARTNERS, WE WILL USE WHATEVER MEANS WE HAVE, INCLUDING DIPLOMATIC AND THROUGH INTERNATIONAL FORA, TO PROSECUTE THE CAUSE OF PEACE. BUT WHILE THERE ARE THREATS OF CONFLICT, WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR THAT AS WELL. BUT YOU'RE MAKING A PRETTY CLEAR STATEMENT HERE THAT OUR DEFENCE FORCES AREN'T SEARCH-AND-RESCUE FORCE; IT'S NOT A HUMANITARIAN FORCE. YOU WANT IT TO BE A COMBAT-CAPABLE FORCE THAT'S GOING TO DEPLOY MORE OFTEN. I MEAN, WHAT SHOULD NEW ZEALANDERS READ FROM THAT? WELL, OUR DEFENCE FORCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN COMBAT CAPABLE. THAT'S WHAT A DEFENCE FORCE IS. BUT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, CONFLICT DOES BREAK OUT IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, WHERE $20B WORTH OF OUR EXPORTS FLOWS THROUGH EVERY YEAR, WE HAVE A STAKE IN THAT. AND WE MAY BE CALLED ON TO PLAY A ROLE SHOULD CONFLICT BREAK OUT. WE NEED TO BE EQUIPPED FOR THAT AND PREPARED FOR IT. HOW MUCH OF THIS IS IN AN EFFORT TO GET BUY-IN FROM KIWIS WHO WOULD RATHER YOU SPEND MONEY, YOU KNOW, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THINGS LIKE HEALTH, EDUCATION, ALLEVIATING THE COST OF LIVING PRESSURES AT THE MOMENT? PRIMARY DUTY OF GOVERNMENT IS THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF ITS PEOPLE. THAT DOES MEAN WE HAVE TO HAVE A NATIONAL SECURITY CAPABILITY AND A DEFENCE CAPABILITY, ENSURE PEOPLE'S PHYSICAL HEALTH IS LOOKED AFTER AS WELL. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT NEW ZEALANDERS SUPPORT YOU SPENDING` INCREASING SPENDING ON DEFENCE, SPENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THIS AREA WHEN THEY'RE REALLY FEELING THE SQUEEZE RIGHT NOW? IT IS THE DUTY OF GOVERNMENT AND OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS. AND WHEREAS WE HAVEN'T IN THE PAST BEEN VERY GOOD AT TALKING PUBLICLY ABOUT IT, I THINK THE ONUS IS ON US TO TALK PUBLICLY ABOUT IT, AND WE HAVE TO TALK OPENLY ABOUT WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PRESERVE AND PROTECT OUR INTERESTS. OK, LAURA ` THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM HERE IS CHINA, ISN'T IT? THAT'S THE THREAT THE MINISTER IS ALLUDING TO. ABSOLUTELY. WE HEARD THE MINISTER EXPLICITLY SAY THERE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICT IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA WHICH IS STRONG. THESE POLICY DOCUMENTS NAME CHECK CHINA AND THE MOVEMENTS OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT AND WHAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING IN THE PACIFIC. BUT IT IS MORE THAN CHINA AS WELL ` IT IS ABOUT EMERGING THREATS. CYBER ATTACKS BY BENIGN ACTORS IT IS ALSO ABOUT THINGS LIKE EXTREMISM, TERRORISM AND, OF COURSE, THAT MASSIVE THREAT OF CLIMATE CHANGE. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF ANALYSIS ALREADY FOLLOWING THE ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY. HELEN CLARK WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO POPPED UP ON TWITTER TO MAKE HER FEELINGS KNOWN. 'NEW ZEALAND IS ABANDONING ITS CAPACITY TO THINK FOR ITSELF 'AND INSTEAD IS CUTTING AND PASTING FROM FIVE EYES PARTNERS.' NOT A RINGING ENDORSEMENT? NO. IT IS SCATHING FROM HELEN CLARK. PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER THAT BACK IN 2001, WHEN SHE WAS IN CHARGE, SHE DESCRIBED I WOULD GEOPOLITICAL ENVIRONMENT AS INCREDIBLY BENIGN, AND ANDREW LITTLE AS SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT. HE IS SAYING WE NO LONGER LIVE IN A BENIGN WORLD. YOU CAN SEE A LOT HAS CHANGED THERE. A LOT OF WHAT HELEN CLARK IS SAYING IS THAT WE ARE STEPPING AWAY FROM OUR PROUDLY INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY. TODAY'S GOVERNMENT WON'T AGREE WITH THAT. ANDREW LITTLE SAYS WE ARE NOT CHANGING WHERE WE SIT ON FOREIGN POLICY, JUST BEING CLEARER ABOUT TELLING THE STORY TO THE PUBLIC. OF COURSE, HELEN CLARK HAS DIFFERENT IDEAS. PART OF THIS AS WELL AS THE DISCUSSION AROUND AUKUS, SOMETHING WE HAVE DISCUSSED A LOT. WHILE WE MIGHT HAVE RULED OUT JOINING THE PART THAT TALKS ABOUT NUCLEAR SUBROUTINES, *SUBMARINES, WE HAVE STILL LEFT THE DOOR OPEN TO JOIN IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM. THE POLICY DOCUMENTS TALK ABOUT PARTNERING MORE CLOSELY WITH THE US, AUSTRALIA, AND THOSE OTHER NATIONS. SO HELEN CLARK IS SAYING THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING TO JOIN AUKUS, THAT THAT WOULD UNDERMINE OUR INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY, OTHER DEFENCE AND SECURITY EXPERTS HAVE SAID THIS IS THE BIGGEST SHIFT IN DEFENCE POLICY AND A GENERATION. BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY SOME OF THE PEOPLE WE HAVE SPOKEN TO WHO WERE PART OF THE REVIEW SAY THAT PUTTING CHINA OUT OF THE EQUATION AND AUKUS, WE DO STILL NEED TO SPEND ON OUR DEFENCE FORCE. AT THE MOMENT THEY ARE NOT IN A FIT STATE TO RESPOND. WE HAVE HORRIBLE ATTRITION NUMBERS AND THINGS ARE LOOKING PRETTY BLEAK, SO MONEY NEEDS TO BE SPENT. THAT IS PROBABLY SOMETHING WE CAN ALL AGREE ON. THIS IS CLEARLY A CONVERSATION WE'LL KEEP HAVING AS A COUNTRY. THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPORTING. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU ` STAY WITH US; WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. THERE HAVE BEEN HIGHS AND LOWS THIS WEEK IN THE HOUSE ` BOTH DELIVERED BY NATIONAL'S FINANCE SPOKESPERSON, NICOLA WILLIS. YES, SHE CERTAINLY PROVED SHE COULD CUT THROUGH. HERE IS FINN HOGAN WITH HOW. BECAUSE ACTUALLY WE ARE HERE IN THIS HOUSE NOT FOR OUR OWN SELVES BUT FOR THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES WE CAN HAVE AN IMPACT ON, AND WITH THIS CHURLISH DECISION TO VOTE AGAINST A PRAGMATIC, MODERNISING, COST FREE BILL, THE MEMBERS OPPOSITE HAVE SHOWN THEY HAVE LEFT THEIR VALUES AT THE DOOR AND PUT POLITICS FIRST, AND I TELL YOU NEW ZEALAND PARENTS WILL ENSURE YOU PAY THE PRICE. BUT THE HIGHLIGHT OF THE WEEK, OF COURSE, HAD TO BE HER POOR CHOICE OF WORDS WHILE GRILLING THE FINANCE MINISTER. HOW BIG IS HIS HOLE? AND DO... (LAUGHTER) I THINK ROBERTSON HIMSELF SAID IT BEST. GRANT ROBERTSON: THAT IS NOT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, I CAN ASSURE YOU. I'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. THAT WAS UNFORTUNATE. JUST A LITTLE BIT. IT IS NICE TO SEE SOME FUN IN PARLIAMENT FROM TIME TO TIME. IT IS INDEED. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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