CAPTIONS BY KRISTIN WILLIAMS AND LENA ERAKOVICH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` THE MAN DUBBED THE MINISTER FOR EVERYTHING... ON THE ART OF A GOOD CAMPAIGN AND NEW ZEALAND'S PATH THROUGH A DIFFICULT ECONOMY. THEN, HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DO INVESTMENT COMPANIES LIKE BLACKROCK REALLY HAVE? SO THEY'RE INVESTING IN THINGS THAT OUR DAILY LIVES DEPEND UPON, FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR DAILY EXISTENCE. AND ONE OF NATIONAL'S MOST OUTSPOKEN MPS FACES A BIG CHALLENGE FROM THE RIGHT. WHENA OWEN: IF YOU LOOK AT WHEN YOU CAME INTO PARLIAMENT, AND THEN OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN SORT OF PROMOTED FORWARD... YEAH, LOOK, IT ALWAYS COMES DOWN TO WHAT LEADERS WANT, BUT IT PROBABLY HAS HAD AN IMPACT, BUT, YOU KNOW, I WENT INTO PARLIAMENT TO BE ME. STEVEN JOYCE WAS THE NATIONAL PARTY'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR NO FEWER THAN FIVE ELECTIONS. FOR FOUR OF THOSE ELECTIONS, NATIONAL WON MORE VOTES THAN ANY OTHER PARTY. JOYCE EARNED A REPUTATION AS BEING ADEPT AT GETTING CHANGES THROUGH THE MACHINERY OF GOVERNMENT. NOW, WITH TWO MONTHS UNTIL THE 2023 GENERAL ELECTION, STEVEN JOYCE HAS PUBLISHED HIS MEMOIR ` ON THE RECORD. KIA ORA. GOOD MORNING. GOOD MORNING. HOW ARE YOU? VERY WELL. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE SEEN THE BOOK. FIRST TIME SEEING THE PHYSICAL BOOK. I WANT TO DIVE INTO YOUR POLITICAL HISTORY IN A MOMENT, BUT GIVEN THAT TOMORROW'S TWO MONTHS UNTIL POLLING DAY, LET'S START WITH THE CURRENT ELECTION. FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AS IT STANDS? IS PROBABLY WIDER OPEN THAN WHAT IT WAS FOR ALL OF MY FIVE CAMPAIGNS. IT BRINGS THE SMALLER PARTIES SIGNIFICANTLY INTO PLAY. ACT AND GREEN ARE AROUND THE 10% MARK. IT MEANS WHATEVER YOU GET AFTER THE ELECTION IS DRIVEN BY THE SMALLER PARTNER. GOOD OLD WINSTON. HE TENDS TO AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE POLLS, DO WELL WHEN AT LEAST ONE OF THE OTHER PARTIES IS WEAK. I WOULD SAY IT IS FAIRLY WIDE OPEN. BUT I THINK ON BALANCE, WITH THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL, AND PEOPLE TALK A LOT ABOUT THAT RIGHT DIRECTION AND WRONG DIRECTION INDICATOR, I THINK IT MAKES IT AN UNCOMMON BATTLE FOR THE PERSON TO WIN. THE PUBLIC ARE LOOKING FOR CHANGE. THE QUESTION IS ` WILL THEY PRESS THE BUTTON? AND I THINK IT IS INCREASINGLY LIKELY. NOT GUARANTEED BY ANY MEANS, BUT INCREASINGLY LIKELY THAT THEY MIGHT PRESS THE BUTTON. IF YOU LOOK AT THE DONATIONS MORE THAN $20,000 THAT HAVE COME INSOFAR, NATIONAL, ACT AND THE GREENS HAVE ALL BROUGHT IN MORE MONEY THAN NEIGHBOUR. HOW THAT AFFECTS THINGS? NOT HUGELY BECAUSE IRONICALLY MONEY ONLY ENABLES CAMPAIGNING TO SOME DEGREE BUT IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE NATURE OF CAMPAIGNS DESPITE WHAT SOME PEOPLE THINK. YOU NEED TO HAVE FUNDING TO CAMPAIGN, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT FUNDING FOR TV ADS AND ALL THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. IN SOME WAYS, THESE DAYS, THE UBIQUITY OF SOCIAL MEDIA MEANS THAT YOU CAN DO A WHOLE LOT OF STUFF THAT IS EFFECTIVELY FREE. I DON'T THINK IT WILL HAVE A MASSIVE IMPACT, BUT IT IS PROBABLY A BIT OF A REFERENDUM ON THE RELATIVE POPULARITY OF THE PARTIES ON THEIR BASIS. I THINK LABOUR, WITH THE SORT OF MOVE FROM ARDERN TO HIPKINS AND JUMPING TO NEW POLICIES, IT HAS PROBABLY CONFUSE THE LABOUR BASE AND SUPPORTERS. THE GREENS KNOW WITH A WANT TO BE, AND THEY ARE BIG SUPPORTERS ARE RIGHT BEHIND THEM. NATIONAL AND ACT SUPPORTERS OBVIOUSLY WANT CHANGE. YOU HAVE THAT UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE HAVING BEEN ONE OF JOHN KEY'S MOST TRUSTED MINISTERS BUT ALSO HAVING A CAREER IN MEDIA AND MARKETING. FROM THE OUTSIDE, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY OTHER BIGGEST DIFFERENCES BETWEEN KEY AND LUXON. OH, I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT. IT IS HARD TO PLAY SPOT THE DIFFERENCE AND SPOT THE SIMILARITY. PEOPLE OFTEN TALK ABOUT IS LUXON THE NEXT KEY OR NOT? AND IT IS FUN TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING. AND WHAT DO YOU SAY. EXACTLY THAT. IT'S A BIT IRRELEVANT. LUXON AS HIS OWN PERSON. IF HE GETS THE JOB, HE WILL BE FACED WITH ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CHALLENGES THAN KEY HAD. EVERY GOVERNMENT IS DETERMINED BY EVENTS. THE EVENTS THAT WILL DEVELOP THE NEXT GOVERNMENT HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. I THINK HE IS VERY WELL ORGANISED. ONE SIMILARITY WITH KATE IS THAT HE LEADS A TEAM THAT LETS THE TEAM DO ITS JOB. I WAS. PRIVILEGED TO BE IN THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH ISN'T NECESSARILY COMMON, WHERE YOU ARE TRUSTED TO DO A JOB, ENSURE, YOU HAVE TO DO IT, BUT YOU DON'T GET MICROMANAGED BY THE LEADER. AND THAT HAS HAPPENED PLENTY OF TIMES. SO YOUR FIRST EXPERIENCE AS THE NATIONAL CAMPAIGN MANAGER WAS 2005, WHICH WAS ARGUABLY THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL. ONE MEMORY STUCK OUT FOR ME FROM THAT CAMPAIGN. WE HAVE SOME PICTURES OF IT HERE. IWI VS KIWI BILLBOARDS. UPON REFLECTION, DO YOU THINK THOSE WERE GOOD FOR NEW ZEALAND? LOOK, I DON'T THINK ON THEIR OWN REPRESENT MUCH EXCEPT A DEPICTION OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE TIME. I DON'T THINK RACIAL DIVISIVENESS WORKS FOR NEW ZEALAND. YOU THINK THAT WAS RACIALLY DIVISIVE? NO, AND THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS. MANY PEOPLE TOOK IT A DIFFERENT WAY FROM WHAT I SAW. ONE WAS LOOKING AT ONE AS A SUBSET OF THE WHOLE RATHER THAN ONE OR THE OTHER. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? KIWIS IS EVERYBODY, BUT INCORPORATING IWI, IT WAS A PLAY ON WORDS THAT GOT LOST. THE BIGGER QUESTION IS WHY WAS TO THOUSAND AND FIVE LIKE THAT? UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S PLAYING OUT A LITTLE BIT AGAIN THIS YEAR. IT'S DIFFERENT, AND THERE WON'T BE ANY OF THOSE BILLBOARDS AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE HAD TWO GOVERNMENTS NOW WHO HAVE PROBABLY GOT AHEAD OF A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION WITH REGARD TO RACE RELATIONS. KEY AND OTHERS SPENT A LOT OF TIME GETTING THE RACE RELATIONS INTO A MUCH HAPPIER PLACE. UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE THE SAME FOR THE NEXT GOVERNMENT AS WELL. THE MAORI CAUCUS HAS GOT AHEAD OF THE COUNTRY. IN WHAT WAYS? IT'S A FOCUS ON IDENTITY POLITICS. AND I THINK AND IT'S BROADER THAN JUST ETHNIC ISSUES. I THINK THE TROUBLE WITH IDENTITY POLITICS AS ALWAYS PUTS PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WHO AREN'T PART OF THE IDENTITY. PEOPLE DON'T RESPOND WELL TO THAT. WE DO NEED TO GET INTO A POSITION, AND THIS WILL BE A CHALLENGE FOR THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, HOW DO YOU DRAW EVERYBODY BACK TOGETHER AGAIN? WHAT A REFERENDUM ON THE PRINCIPLES OF TE TIRITI BE GOOD FOR NEW ZEALAND? I'M NOT SURE ON THAT, BUT I WILL NOT BE DOING A BIG CRITIQUE ON THAT. I THINK IT IS GOING TO TAKE` PEOPLE WANT TO BE FEELING THAT THEY ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER. AND YES, SOME PEOPLE NEED HELP, BUT IT'S NOT HELPFUL TO DO IT BASED ON VARIOUS ASPECTS OF THEIR IDENTITY. THE DANGER OF IWI VS KIWI AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT IT INTENSIFIES DIVIDES AND IT WAS JUST OFF THE BACK OF THE OREWA SPEECH. PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE SPEECH` EVERYBODY WAS SURPRISED ABOUT THE REACTION TO THAT SPEECH, INCLUDING BRASH. PEOPLE SAY THAT WAS THE TURNING POINT. ACTUALLY, IT WAS JUST THE SPEECH. (CHUCKLES) AND THE PUBLIC REACTION WAS WHAT DROVE IT. INFRASTRUCTURE IS A MASSIVE CHALLENGE FACING NEW ZEALAND. YOU REFLECT ON THE ROLL OUT OF ULTRAFAST BROADBAND IN YOUR BOOK. REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL STRIPES, MANY PEOPLE WILL THINK OF IT AS ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL ROLLOUTS OF AN INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT. WHAT OTHER LESSONS THAT WE SHOULD TRANSFER FROM THAT TO OTHER BIG STRUCTURE PROJECTS? IT IS A DANGER TO TAKE A HUGE AMOUNT OUT OF IT BECAUSE IT WAS AGAIN A CREATURE OF ITS MOMENT. I THINK, FIRSTLY, TRY AND DRAW AND EVERYBODY THAT CAN MAKE A CONTRIBUTION. THAT IS THE PRIVATE AS WELL AS THE PUBLIC SECTOR. IT WAS VERY MUCH PRIVATE SECTOR DRIVEN. IT WAS CONTROLLED AND FUNDED IN PART BY THE PUBLIC SECTOR, BUT THE EXECUTION WAS VERY MUCH CHORUS AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING THAT ACTUALLY DID IT. PRIVATE SECTOR PLAYERS. THE CONTRAST WITH AUSTRALIA, I THINK, IS VERY RELEVANT. AUSTRALIA, THEY TRIED TO BULLY TELSTRA INTO SELLING THE BUSINESS BUT FOR A RIDICULOUS PRICE. THEY NATIONALISED IT. IT WAS RUBBISH AFTER THAT. AND I THINK IT'S TRYING TO FIND THE SHORTEST PATH TO SUCCESS. KEEPING CLARITY ABOUT WHAT SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE BECAUSE THE THING ABOUT POLITICS IS EVERYBODY HAS A VIEW, RIGHT, AND IT'S ALWAYS A DIFFERENT VIEW. WHAT WERE WE THINKING AT THE START? WHY HAVE WE COME TO DO THIS? YES, IT MAY BE IMPORTANT TO HAVE INTERNATIONAL PIPELINES OR OTHER THINGS, BUT ACTUALLY, THE GOAL HERE IS THIS AND THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO. KEEP COMING BACK TO IT. HIRE REALLY GOOD PEOPLE AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOB. BUT AS A MINISTER, OTHER LESSONS THAT WE CAN TAKE FROM THAT FOR OTHER PROJECTS? I KNOW YOU ARE NOT A SUPPORTER OF LIGHT RAIL. BUT FOR A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT FOR A MOMENT, IF YOU WITH A MINISTER IN CHARGE OF DELIVERING LIGHT RAIL, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN THE LAST SIX YEARS TO PROGRESS THAT PROJECT? I THINK YOU HAVE TO TAILOR IT TO WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WANT TO DO. WHAT YOU ACTUALLY TRYING TO ACHIEVE? IF IT IS ACCESS TO THE INNER WESTERN SUBURBS OF AUCKLAND FROM THE CBD, LET'S FOCUS ON THAT. LET'S NOT TRY TO TURN IT INTO THE AIRPORT THING OR WHATEVER. IT HAS MORPHED AROUND A LOT. SECONDLY, WHAT ARE YOU ACTUALLY TRYING TO ACHIEVE? AND IS THIS THE BEST WAY OF DOING IT? I THINK THAT'S A QUESTION. LET'S ASSUME THEN TO YOUR POINT THAT IT WAS. THEN YOU HAVE TO SAY WHAT IS THE MECHANISM BY WHICH WE ARE GOING TO ACHIEVE IT? IT WAS ALL A BIT RANDOM. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER THE IDEA THAT THE SUPERFUND WOULD DO IT. THEY DIDN'T TRUST NZTA TO DO IT. THEY ALLOWED THIS PARALLEL PROCESS. IMAGINE THAT. YOU ARE THERE. YOU ARE THE AGENCY CHARGED WITH LEADING THE PROCUREMENT FOR IT, ED MEANWHILE ANOTHER ARM OF GOVERNMENT IS TALKING TO ANOTHER BRANCH OF MINISTERS SAYING, YEAH, WE WILL RUN IT. YOU WOULD THINK, WHAT AM I DOING HERE? THE WHOLE THING, THERE WAS NO SHAPE TO IT. IF YOU WERE GOING TO DO IT, THEN LET'S AGREE WITH WHAT IT IS TRYING TO ACHIEVE, SET SOME PARAMETERS AND HIRE SOME GOOD PEOPLE AND LET THEM GET ON WITH IT. MAKE IT CONTESTABLE ABSOLUTELY. IT HAS TO BE CONTESTABLE. YOU CAN'T HAVE A CONTESTABLE PROCESS OF THE CONSTRUCTION COMPANY DOESN'T KNOW WHETHER TO GO TO THE SUPERFUND OR NZTA. YOU LOVE ROADS IN THE RIGHT PLACE. THEY TEND TO WORK. YOU WERE BEHIND THE ROADS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE. THAT HAD A BENEFIT COST RATIO OF 0.6, WHICH THEN BLEW OUT. IRONICALLY, THE COSTING THAT WE HAD FOR IT WAS ALWAYS EXPECTED TO BE AROUND 1.1 OR 1.2B IT CAME BACK WITH THE QUOTES IN THE PROCESS AND CAME TO LESS THAN $1B, WHICH AS YOU SAY BLEW OUT. A REVIEW IN 2021 WAS PRETTY SCATHING. WHEN YOU REVIEW ON THE PROCESS, DO YOU THINK IT REPRESENTS GOOD VALUE? YES, I DO. HUGE VALUE JUST FOR THE TRANSPORT AND SAFETY BENEFITS, BUT THE BIT WHERE WE DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT IS ALSO THEIR WELLINGTON RESILIENCE BIT. WE ALL HOPE THAT WE DON'T GET BIG BIG EARTHQUAKE THAT EVERYBODY TELLS US WE ARE GOING TO GET IN WELLINGTON, BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SWUNG IT FOR ME. I REMEMBER MARTIN WEAVERS SAYING THAT HE SUPPORTED THIS TO ME NOT BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE OTHER STUFF BUT BECAUSE HIS OBSESSION IS WHAT HAPPENS TO WELLINGTON IF THERE IS A BIG QUAKE. AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER TWO EXITS OUT OF WELLINGTON, ALONG THE BOTTOM OF THE CLIFF AND OVER THE HILLS. BOTH FAIRLY PRECARIOUS. WELL, BOTH WOULD BE GONE. THE GENERAL CIVIL DEFENCE PLANNING FOR THE CITY IS THAT IT IS CUT OFF FOR WEEKS IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENS. I THINK THAT ALONE IS ONE REASON TO DO IT. BUT IT IS HUGELY IMPORTANT. I WRITE IN THE BOOK ABOUT HOW WE HAVE BEEN COURAGEOUS TO BUILD THE CAPITAL CITY ON AN OUTCROP OF ROCK AT THE BOTTOM OF AN ISLAND. WE HAVE DONE IT. IT NEEDS TO BE CONNECTED TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. POLITICS IS ALL ABOUT TIMING, AND YOUR TIME AS PRIME MINISTER NEVER CAME. HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT? RELAXED. I USED TO SAY TO JOHN, YOU HAVE TO SIT AND LISTEN TO A LOT OF THINGS. PRIME MINISTERS GO AROUND SITTING AND LISTENING AND OPENING STUFF A LOT MORE THAN MINISTERS DO. I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE GOOD THAT HE DID ALL OF THAT, AND THEY WERE ONE OR TWO OTHERS OF US WHO WERE ABLE TO GET STUFF DONE. WAS THAT THE BENEFIT OF NOT STANDING ELECTORATES AS WELL? I WAS ASKED TO STAND IN NORTH SHORE, AND I WOULD HAVE QUITE LIKED IT. BUT I WAS IN A VERY PRIVILEGED POSITION. I WAS BROUGHT IN AND ASKED TO DO A JOB. I WAS IN PARLIAMENT FOR 9 1/2 YEARS. SOME MPS WHO HAVE BEEN IN PARLIAMENT FOR 15 YEARS HAVE NEVER BEEN A MINISTER. I WAS VERY PRIVILEGED. I HOPE I DID IT WELL AND I HOPE I GAVE THE PUBLIC ENOUGH OF A RETURN ABOUT THAT. A REPORT HAS SAID THAT YOU HAVE CRITICISED THE GOVERNMENT FOR NOT GIVING UNIVERSITIES ENOUGH MONEY YET THERE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE WITH MASSEY. IN TERMS OF THE WORK THAT I DID, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE UNIVERSITY CAN ESTABLISH THE VALUE THAT I GAVE THEM. THEY WERE VERY POSITIVE ABOUT THAT. IT WAS A NUMBER OF PROJECTS THAT I EXECUTED FOR THEM. THAT PARTICULAR UNIVERSITY, I THINK, IS IN A PRETTY STRONG POSITION AT THE MOMENT RELATIVE TO THE OTHERS. I DO THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT IGNORED WHAT WAS COMING FOR THE UNIVERSITY SECTOR FOR SOME TIME IN TERMS OF THE DROP IN STUDENT, AND NOW THEY ARE PLAYING CATCH UP. AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS HELPED THEM STAY AFLOAT WITH A RANGE OF PROJECTS, MY OPINION IS THAT THE TWO CAN WORK TOGETHER. THERE IS AN INFAMOUS MOMENT THAT MANY OF OUR VIEWERS CAN REMEMBER AND I'M SURE YOU NEVER ALLOWED TO FORGET. AT WAITANGI, A PROTESTER THREW A CERTAIN PROJECTILE IN YOUR DIRECTION. YOU TOOK EVERYTHING ON THE CHIN. LITERALLY. DID ANY PART OF YOU RESENT DILDOGATE? NO, BECAUSE THERE IS NO POINT. IT'S NOT A BLIGHT ON MY COPYBOOK. I'M NOT THE ONE WHO THROUGH IT. IT WAS MEANT FOR KEY, OF COURSE. I HAVE HAD HIM ON THAT I TOOK ONE FOR THE TEAM. IT IS JUST SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED. SOME OF THE REACTION TO IT WAS VERY FUNNY. I THINK THE JOHN OLIVER STUFF WAS PRICELESS REALLY. (CHUCKLES) STUFF HAPPENS. NOBODY GOT HURT. SHOULD LUXON RULE OUT WORKING WITH PETERS? THAT IS FOR HIM TO SUSS OUT. IN THE BOOK, YOU TOOK QUITE` IT'S VERY INTERESTING THE DETAILS THAT YOU SHARE ABOUT THE COALITION DISCUSSIONS IN 2017. WHAT IS THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU GOT? YOU NEVER FELT THAT PETERS GAVE NATIONAL A CHANCE. I WAS MORE POSITIVE THAN THAT, BUT THERE WERE CERTAINLY SOME THAT THOUGHT IT WAS FOR SHOW REALLY. I THINK THE THING IS THAT HE IS OUT FOR NUMBER ONE, AND THAT'S FINE, BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE A GRAIN OF SALT. ANYTHING HE SAYS AHEAD OF EARN ELECTION COMPARED TO AFTERWARDS, PEOPLE WANT TO VOTE FOR HIM, THAT'S FINE. AT 2017 SHOWED` PREVIOUSLY HE SAID I THINK THAT HE WANTED TO GO WITH THE LARGEST PARTY. THERE IS A HEALTHIER POSITION TO TAKE. 2017 HAPPENED, AND THEY WENT WITH THE SECOND LARGEST PARTY, WHICH IS THE FIRST TIME I THINK SINCE 1911. YOU CAN DO THAT BECAUSE IT'S IN THE RULES. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT TOO MANY TIMES BECAUSE THEN THE WHOLE POLITICAL SYSTEM COMES INTO QUESTION. THE SYSTEM IS DRIVEN BY THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE. IF THEY THINK THAT THE PREFERENCES ARE BEING FRUSTRATED, IF THAT HAPPENED AGAIN QUITE SOON AFTER 2017, PEOPLE WOULD START TO BE QUESTIONING THE SYSTEM AGAIN. WHAT WAS THE UPSIDE TO JUNKIES DECISION TO RULE OUT WORKING WITH PETERS? THE UPSIDE WAS MAKING IT CLEAR WHAT THE SHAPE OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT MIGHT LOOK LIKE. WE WERE IN A STRONGER POSITION, TO BE FAIR. IN BOTH CASES. AND SO, I, YOU KNOW` IT'S A DIFFERENT DECISION THIS TIME FOR THE CURRENT TEAM. BUT PERSONALLY, WINSTON IS A LIKEABLE ROGUE. BUT I WOULDN'T LIKE TO BACK MY FUTURE IN ANY SENSE ON WINSTON. I JUST WOULDN'T DO IT. WOULD NATIONAL, ACT, NEW ZEALAND FIRST GOVERNMENT SURVIVE? I THINK SO. WOULD IT BE STRONG? MAYBE NOT. BUT PEOPLE HAVE A FUNNY WAY. AND I THINK THERE IS A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH YOU CAN USE HISTORY TO GUIDE THE FUTURE. SOME OF IT IS IMPORTANT, BUT ULTIMATELY, WHATEVER HAPPENS AFTER THE ELECTION WILL HAPPEN. IT WILL BE A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL RUN. WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT OF THE CURRENT ONE, THEY HAVEN'T SET THE BAR VERY HIGH. WE WILL JUST HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. WE APPRECIATE IT. THAT'S STEVEN JOYCE ` HIS BOOK IS ON THE RECORD. IT'S PUBLISHED THIS WEEK. UP NEXT ` THE GOVERNMENT'S SIGNED A DEAL WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S BIGGEST INVESTMENT FUNDS TO INVEST IN RENEWABLE ENERGY. I AM ABSOLUTELY STOKED ` THIS IS A GAME-CHANGER, A NO-BRAINER. TODAY IS A WATERSHED MOMENT IN OUR TRANSITION TO 100% RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY GENERATION. THAT WAS PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS ANNOUNCING THE NEW $2B RENEWABLE ENERGY FUND WITH U.S. INVESTMENT GIANT BLACKROCK. BUT ECONOMIST BRETT CHRISTOPHERS IS WARY OF THE INFLUENCE HELD BY COMPANIES SUCH AS BLACKROCK. HE'S A PROFESSOR AT SWEDEN'S UPPSALA UNIVERSITY, AND THE AUTHOR OF OUR LIVES IN THEIR PORTFOLIOS, WHY ASSET MANAGERS OWN THE WORLD, WHICH EXAMINES COMPANIES LIKE BLACKROCK. HE HAPPENS TO BE IN AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND. GOOD MORNING. WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT? IT'S VERY MUCH A SIGN OF THE TIMES. WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT GOVERNMENTS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE IDENTIFIED A WHOLE SERIES OF INVESTMENT DEMANDS RELATING PARTICULAR TO INFRASTRUCTURE, AND I KNOW YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE JUST NOW, NOT LEAST RELATING TO CLIMATE INFRASTRUCTURE. AS WELL AS RECOGNISING A HUGE DEMAND FOR INVESTMENT, A SECOND IMPORTANT PART IS THAT GOVERNMENTS HAVE INCREASINGLY ACCEPTED OR TAKEN THE VIEW THAT GOVERNMENTS THEMSELVES SHOULDN'T BE UNDERTAKING THAT INVESTMENT. SHOULDN'T BE AT ALL PUBLIC MONEY. SO THEY LOOK INTO THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO UNDERTAKE MOST OF THAT INVESTMENT. IF YOU LOOK AT THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND WHERE THERE IS SURPLUS CAPITAL TO BE INVESTED, THE ANSWER THESE DAYS IS PRETTY MUCH ASSET MANAGEMENT COMPANIES LIKE BLACKROCK. THEY HAVE ABOUT $100 TRILLION OF CAPITAL UNDER MANAGEMENT. THEY MANAGE CAPITAL FOR ENTITIES LIKE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS AS WELL AS INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOU AND I. IF YOU LOOK TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO CARRY OUT INVESTMENT, YOU ARE LOOKING PRINCIPALLY TO ASSET MANAGEMENT. THIS IS A SIGN OF WIDER TIMES. WHAT DOES BLACKROCK GET OUT OF IT? MONEY MAYBE THAT WHAT ELSE? LIKE IN ALL OF ITS INVESTMENTS, IT'S LOOKING TO DO TWO THINGS ` MAKE MONEY AND ALSO LOOKING FOR GOOD PUBLIC RELATIONS AND INVESTMENT IN GREEN ENERGY. I NOT FORGETTING ABOUT SOME PUSHBACK IN THE STATES OF BEING WOKE FOR INVESTING IN THINGS LIKE RENEWABLES. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, PEOPLE WANT TO SEE THEM CARRYING OUT 'ETHICAL' INVESTMENT IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER. OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE NOT A CHARITY. THEY ARE NOT SAYING, HERE IS THE MONEY AND DO WITH IT WHAT YOU WILL. THAT IS MY MAIN VIEW OF THE DEAL. WE DON'T HAVE ANY DETAIL. BUT ONE WOULD IMAGINE THAT BEHIND-THE-SCENES, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF DISCUSSION WHERE BLACKROCK WILL HAVE SAID, WE WILL DO THE FUND, BUT WE WANT TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT WE WILL MAKE MONEY OUT OF IT. THIS IS THE THING THAT I WOULD SAY, RENEWABLES INVESTMENT EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD IS A RISKY BUSINESS. BLACKROCK, LIKE OTHER LEADING PRIVATE SECTOR INVESTORS, DOES NOT INVEST IN RENEWABLES UNLESS IT HAS SEEMED THAT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF THAT RISK HAS BEEN ABSORBED BY OTHER ACTORS. SO THEY WILL NOT HAVE SAID, WE ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU THIS MONEY WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT GIVING SOME SORT OF ASSURANCE THAT THERE WILL BE A SCHEME IN PLACE WHEREBY SOME OF THAT RISK WILL BE REMOVED. THAT IS VERY INTERESTING. THE DAY AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT, A CONSULTATION DOCUMENT WAS RELEASED BY THE GOVERNMENT. IS THAT ENOUGH OF A CARROT AND ASSURANCE? I THINK WHAT WILL HAPPEN` THE THING IS THAT THE MONEY IS NOT THERE YET. THAT IS THE IMPORTANT THING TO UNDERSTAND FOR YOUR VIEWERS. THE BASIC BACKGROUND OF HOW THAT INDUSTRY WORKS. AN ASSET MANAGEMENT FIRM LIKE THEM WILL INVEST IN CLEAN ENERGY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BUT IT COULD BE TRANSPORTATION IN SOUTHEAST ASIA OR HOUSING IN AMERICA, AND THEN THEY GO TO THEIR INVESTORS AND SAY, WE HAVE THIS INVESTMENT FUND WE ARE SETTING UP. THIS IS WHAT WE WILL DO WITH IT. WE THINK IT WILL BE ABLE TO GENERATE YOU RETURNS OF 10 OR 12% PER ANNUM, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. THESE ARE THE FEES WE WILL CHARGE YOU FOR PUTTING MONEY INTO THAT FUND. WE THINK IT WILL BE GOOD FOR YOU TO GIVE US $100 MILLION TO PUT INTO THE FUND. IN 10 YEARS WE WILL RETURN THERE TO YOU WITH A HEALTHY PROFIT. THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY WILL ESTABLISH THE FUND, BUT THEY HAVE YET TO GO ON THE ROAD SO TO SPEAK TO RAISE THAT CAPITAL. SO WHILE THEY ARE DOING THAT, BE THERE WILL BE ONGOING DISCUSSIONS IN THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT ABOUT HOW RENEWABLE ENERGY INVESTMENT IS REGULATED IN NEW ZEALAND. HISTORICALLY, THERE HAS BEEN LESS SO TO SPEAK GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR RENEWABLES IN NEW ZEALAND AND ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD. THE MAIN WAY IN WHICH IT IS SUBSIDISED AT THE MOMENT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IS THROUGH THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME, WHICH BASICALLY MAKES FOSSIL FUEL FIRED POWER MORE EXPENSIVE AND THEREFORE IN RELATIVE TERMS MAKES RENEWABLE LESS EXPENSIVE, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS COME TO REVIEW WITH THE INDUSTRY THAT OTHER MECHANISMS OF SUPPORT ARE GOING TO BE REQUIRED GOING FORWARD. RIGHT. IF MONEY MAKES THE WORLD GO ROUND, IN COMPANIES LIKE BLACKROCK HAVE TRADITIONALLY HAD MASSIVE INVESTMENTS IN FOSSIL FUELS, IS IT NOT A GOOD THING THAT THE MONEY IS CHASING RETURNS IN RENEWABLES? I WOULD SAY THREE THINGS IN ANSWER TO THAT. THE FIRST IS, ABSOLUTELY, IT IS BETTER THAT IF BLACKROCK IS GOING TO INVEST IN THE ENERGY SECTOR THAT THAT IS IN RENEWABLES THAN FOSSIL FUELS. PERCENT. BUT LET'S BE HONEST, THE PART OF BLACKROCK THAT INVESTS IN SPECIFIC INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PART OF BLACKROCK AND THE PART THAT HOLDS SHARES IN BP. DIFFERENT TYPES OF FUNDS AND MANAGERS. DIFFERENT BUSINESS. SECOND THING ` IF THE CHOICE IS BETWEEN BLACKROCK INVESTING IN RENEWABLES IN NEW ZEALAND AND NOBODY, IT'S FAR BETTER THAT BLACKWELL DOES IT. IT'S BETTER THAT INVESTMENT OCCURS. IF SOMEONE WAS TO ASK ME, WOULD YOU PREFER RENEWABLES IN NEW ZEALAND OR NOTHING INVESTED AT ALL, I WOULD TAKE THE INVESTMENT IN NEW ZEALAND. THIRD IS THAT BLACKROCK IS NOT THE ONLY POTENTIAL INVESTOR IN RENEWABLE ENERGY IN NEW ZEALAND. BLACKROCK, WHERE EVER IT OPERATES IN THE WORLD, TENDS TO COME OUT ON TOP WHEN IT DOES THESE TYPES OF ARRANGEMENTS BECAUSE IT IS A SAVVY NEGOTIATOR AND GOVERNMENTS ARE BENDING OVER BACKWARDS TO ATTRACT THAT TYPE OF CAPITAL AND GIVING THEM GOOD DEALS. MY POSITION IS, IS BLACKROCK THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE? WOULDN'T IT POTENTIALLY BE BETTER IF, FOR EXAMPLE, THE PUBLIC SECTOR LOANED THE MONEY AND DID ITSELF. WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN WITH THESE INVESTMENT FUNDS? MY MAIN CONCERN. WHICH I ELABORATE AT LENGTH IN THE BOOK, IS THAT, BASED ON THE RESEARCH I HAVE DONE, THEY HAVE A PARTICULAR SET OF INCENTIVES THAT MAKES THEM INAPPROPRIATE OWNERS OF ASSETS ON WHICH ORDINARY PEOPLE RELY FOR SIGNIFICANT EXTENTS IN THEIR DAILY LIVES. IN THE BOOK, I LOOK AT HOUSING ` NOT JUST EVERYDAY APARTMENT BLOCKS THAT STUDENT ACCOMMODATION, CARE HOMES, FOR EXAMPLE. HOUSING ON THE ONE HAND AND THEN CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURES ON THE OTHER HAND. THEY DELIVER SERVICES LIKE WATER AND WASTEWATER AND TREATMENT, TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE. TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE. AN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE. NOW, WHEN THEY INVEST IN THESE INFRASTRUCTURES, THEY TYPICALLY DO SO FOR A LIMITED TIME PERIOD BECAUSE THERE BUSINESS MODEL IS NOT FOR THE MOST PART BUYING AND HOLDING FOR THE LONG-term DESPITE SOME NICE FLUFFY RHETORIC OF BEING STEWARDS AND SO ON. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY. IT HAS SAID THAT IT DOESN'T EXPECT TO ONLY THE INFRASTRUCTURES FOR THE LONG-term. IT BEGS THE QUESTION OF WHY THEY WOULD OWN THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF YOUR INCENTIVE IS TO OWN INFRASTRUCTURES AND HOUSING WITH A VIEW TO SELLING THEM AND MAKING A PROFIT, YOU HAVE TWO OR THREE SPECIFIC INCENTIVES THAT I THINK MAKE THEM INAPPROPRIATE. FIRSTLY, YOUR MAIN GOAL IS TO INCREASE THE INCOME THAT YOU EXTRACT FROM THE ASSETS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO MAKE THEM ATTRACTIVE TO OTHER POTENTIAL BUYERS. IT MEANS PUTTING UP RENTS AND WATER RATES AND SO ON. THE OTHER THING IS THAT IF YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ONLY THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN 10 YEARS TIME LET ALONE IN 20 OR 30 YEARS TIME, YOU ARE BY YOUR VERY NATURE THIS INCENTIVISED TO UNDERTAKE INVESTMENT THAT WILL KEEP THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN GOOD SHAPE FOR THAT AMOUNT OF TIME. YOU ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE INCLINED TO CARRY OUT A BAND EIGHT, STICKING PLASTER TYPE SOLUTIONS WHICH KEEP THE INFRASTRUCTURES IN OKAY NICK FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS, BUT THEY ARE A PROBLEM FOR THE NEXT OWNER. MANY VIEWERS WILL HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE LAMENTABLE STATE OF THE UK WATER AND WASTEWATER INFRASTRUCTURES, WHICH HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY OWNED BY ASSET MANAGEMENT INSTITUTIONS IN RECENT TIMES. THAT IS JUST A CASE STUDY IN UNDERINVESTMENT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE ALONGSIDE MASSIVE EXTRACTION. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE AS CONSUMERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCESS THESE FUNDS IN A WAY THAT WE WERE PREVIOUSLY ABLE TO DO. I THINK OF THINGS LIKE SHARETRADING APPS AND THERE HAS BEEN A DEMOCRATISATION OF SORTS. IF THE ALTERNATIVE IS TO HAVE NATIONALISED ASSETS WHEN IT COMES TO THESE KINDS OF INFRASTRUCTURE, DON'T WE THE PEOPLE STILL OWN THEM? YES AND NO. THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. ONE OF MY FAVOURITE LINES FROM BLACKSTONE. PEOPLE OFTEN GET IT CONFUSED WITH BLACKSTONE. THEY USED TO BE PART OF THE SAME COMPANY. IN THEIR ANNUAL REPORT, EVERY YEAR THEY SAY TO THE EXTENT ` AND DIANE PARAPHRASING` THAT OUR PERFORMANCE FUNDS PERFORM WELL, WE ARE SECURING A SAFE AND SECURE FUTURE FOR ORDINARY WORKERS LIKE NURSES AND FIREFIGHTERS AND TEACHERS BECAUSE IT IS THEIR MONEY ULTIMATELY THAT WE ARE INVESTING, AND IF THE FUNDS PERFORM VERY, VERY WELL, THEY ARE THE PEOPLE BEING BENEFITED. THAT IS. MISLEADING BUT IT'S A VERY POWERFUL DISCOURSE BECAUSE PEOPLE THINK ALONG PRECISELY THE LINES YOU WERE JUST ARTICULATING THEIR. IT'S MISLEADING FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. WELL, FOR THREE. THE FIRST OF THOSE IS, YES, BUT IF THOSE FUNDS ARE MAKING PROFITS FOR ORDINARY RETIREMENT SAVERS BY INVESTING MONEY IN A FUND THAT IS RATCHETING UP RENT FOR THE SAME WORKERS, THEN I'M NOT PARTICULARLY SURE THAT IS A GOOD THING, AND I'M NOT SURE IF I WOULD WANT MY PENSION TO BE BOOSTED BY ESSENTIALLY RENT GOUGING OTHER PEOPLE. SECOND THING IS, INCREASINGLY THE MONEY THAT THE FUNDS LIKE BLACKROCK AND BLACKSTONE ESTABLISH, IT IS NOT THE MONEY OF ORDINARY RETIREMENT SAVERS. INCREASINGLY, IT IS THE MONEY OF INSTITUTIONS LIKE HUGE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUNDS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST. FOR EXAMPLE, BLACKSTONE'S BIGGEST INFRASTRUCTURE FUND, WHICH HAS ABOUT JUST OVER $20 BILLION INVESTED IN IT, HALF OF THE CAPITAL OF THAT IS ONE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND ` THE PUBLIC INVESTMENT FUND OF SAUDI ARABIA, WITH ALL SORTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND SO ON. IF THAT MAKES MONEY, THEY ARE MAKING MONEY FOR THE SAUDI ARABIAN GOVERNMENT. RETIREMENT SAVINGS WEALTH IS UNEQUALLY DISTRIBUTED. 50% OF ALL ASSIGNMENT SAVINGS ARE HELD BY THE TOP 2% IN THE UNITED STATES. YES, IF PROJECTS PERFORM WELL, SOME OF THE MONEY THAT IS GENERATED GOES TO ORDINARY WORKERS, BUT IT'S A TINY, TINY SLITHER. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER, OR FACEBOOK. UP NEXT ` WHO'S GONNA WIN TAMAKI, WHERE NATIONAL'S INCUMBENT MP SIMON O'CONNOR AND ACT'S BROOKE VAN VELDEN ARE LOCKED IN ONE OF THE MORE AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGNS OF THE ELECTION. POLLS CONSISTENTLY SUGGEST ACT IS ON TRACK TO SECURE THE STRONGEST PARTY VOTE RESULT IN THE PARTY'S HISTORY. BUT THE PARTY'S ALSO PUTTING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCE INTO A CAMPAIGN FOR A SECOND ELECTORATE SEAT. THE TAMAKI ELECTORATE BORDERS EPSOM, WHICH IS ALREADY HELD BY ACT LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR. AND ALTHOUGH THE ELECTORATE HAS BEEN SOLIDLY BLUE SINCE 1957, AS WHENA OWEN REPORTS, THIS YEAR TAMAKI IS BEING KEENLY CONTESTED. (BREEZY '50S ORCHESTRAL MUSIC) IF EVER THERE WAS A TRUE-BLUE ELECTORATE, IT'S TAMAKI. IT'S BEEN A NATIONAL SEAT FOR 63 YEARS STRAIGHT. IN ITS SEASIDE SUBURBS, WE MEET UP WITH THE MEMBER FOR TAMAKI, SIMON O'CONNOR. (BREEZY MUSIC CONTINUES) IS THIS YOUR OFFICE? THIS IS MY OFFICE. RIGHT, THIS IS SO ST HELIERS, ISN'T IT? I LIKE SUBTLE. I LIKE SUBTLE. LOOK AT THAT. I LIKE SUBTLE` IS IT IT ACCESSIBLE, THOUGH? YOU KNOW, FOR PEOPLE. PEOPLE KNOW IT'S HERE. PEOPLE KNOW THAT I DO ALL MY OWN EMAILS, ALL MY SOCIAL MEDIA. IT'S ME. AND HE'S BEEN REPRESENTING TAMAKI SINCE HE WON THE SEAT IN 2011. BUT FOR YEARS, TAMAKI WAS SYNONYMOUS WITH ONE MAN... (CACKLES) ...ROBERT MULDOON. I KEEP A PHOTO OF ROB IN MY OFFICE. NOT FOR ANY EULOGISING, BUT ROB IS TAMAKI. HE IS TAMAKI. MORNING. (UPBEAT SYNTH-POP MUSIC) THE TAMAKI ELECTORATE IS MORE THAN THE UPMARKET SUBURBS OF ST HELIERS AND MISSION BAY ` IT TAKES IN NEW HOUSING AREAS LIKE STONEFIELDS, THE GLEN INNES AREA, GLENDOWIE AND MEADOWBANK. YOUR ELECTIONS HAVE BEEN PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD SINCE 2011, BUT THIS ONE POSES A NEW CHALLENGE FOR YOU, WITH ACT. YEAH, ACT HAS CERTAINLY THROWN A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY INTO IT, SO I'M NEVER COMPLACENT, BUT YOU KNOW, VERY PROUD OF WHAT MYSELF AND NATIONAL HAVE DONE HERE. YEAH. SO WE'VE GOT A REALLY GOOD RECORD TO STAND ON. SO ACTUALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THE CAMPAIGN. (UPBEAT MUSIC) ON A ST HELIERS STREET CORNER, TAMAKI CANDIDATE BROOKE VAN VELDEN BEAMS FROM THE ACT PARTY HOUSE, THE CAMPAIGN HQ, BUT SHE'S OUT DOOR-KNOCKING AROUND THE ELECTORATE. HI, I'M BROOKE VAN VELDEN. I'M THE ACT PARTY DEPUTY LEADER. HOW YOU DOING, BROOKE? NEXT MORNING, WE TAG ALONG TO HER STREET CORNER MEETINGS WE'RE STARTING IN THE MORNING AND REMUERA THEN MOVING THROUGH MEADOWBANK AND THEN TO st JOHNS. ALL RIGHT, LET'S GO OUT AND MEET SOME MORE PEOPLE. A SMALL GROUP OF LOCAL RESIDENTS LISTEN TO A PRESENTATION, THEN FIRE QUESTIONS. why DID YOU COME ALONG TODAY TO LISTEN TO BROOKE? MAINLY BECAUSE MY CONCERN FOR LAW AND ORDER, REALLY. BUT BROOKE VERY DEFTLY ANSWERED A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAD. HIP-HIP... CROWD: HURRAY! BROOKE VAN VELDEN CAME INTO PARLIAMENT IN 2020. AFTER GRADUATING IN ECONOMICS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE, SHE WORKED FOR LOBBYIST MATTHEW HOOTON AND THEN AS A STAFFER IN DAVID SEYMOUR'S OFFICE. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO STAND IN TAMAKI? I DECIDED TO STAND IN TAMAKI BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE OVER THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS HAVE ASKED ME TO DO IT. SO WHAT WILL YOU DO DIFFERENTLY FROM NATIONAL IF YOU GET THIS SEAT? SO WHAT I'LL DO IS I PROMISE TO BE A GOOD, HARD-WORKING LOCAL REPRESENTATIVE WHO WORKS FOR ALL PEOPLE OF THE ELECTORATE IN THE SAME WAY THAT DAVID SEYMOUR DOES IN EPSOM. YOU KNOW, HE'S A VERY HARD-WORKING LOCAL MP. I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DESERVE IN TAMAKI AS WELL. RIGHT WHERE I'M STANDING IS THE TAMAKI ELECTORATE, BUT JUST METRES AWAY ACROSS THE ROAD IS THE EPSOM ELECTORATE, A SEAT HELD BY THE ACT LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR SINCE 2005. AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT'S GOING ON HERE ` EXPANSION. WHAT HE'D LIKE TO SEE IS AN ACT PARTY BLOC WITH EPSOM AND TAMAKI... BUT THAT'S ALL UP TO THE PEOPLE OF TAMAKI. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'LL DO THIS ELECTION? (LAUGHS) I PROBABLY WON'T DECIDE TILL THE DAY, BUT ACT'S LOOKING PRETTY GOOD, I GOT TO SAY. OH YEAH? DO YOU KNOW OF BROOKE? YES, YES, YES. I'VE SEEN HER MARKETING ` LOOKS GOOD. I'LL PROBABLY ` I'M MORE A SIMON SIMON VOTER HERE, AND NATIONAL. OH, THEY'RE COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY STAND FOR IN THIS ELECTORATE. ZERO. NOTHING. WHO'S THEY? ACT. ACT? I HAVE ZERO IDEA WHAT THEY STAND FOR HERE. I THINK SIMON'S GOT QUITE A BIT OF SUPPORT. BROOKE VAN VELDEN - YOU THINK SHE'S GOT A GOOD CHANCE HERE? YEAH, COS I PARTICULARLY DON'T LIKE SIMON AND WHAT HE STANDS FOR. NATIONAL'S GOING TO WIN THE GOVERNMENT. SIMON O'CONNOR, WHO TRAINED AS A PRIEST AND COMPLETED POST-GRAD DEGREES IN POLITICS AND PHILOSOPHY, IS KNOWN TO BE ONE OF THE MORE SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE POLITICIANS IN PARLIAMENT, OPPOSING ABORTION REFORM AND THE END OF LIFE CHOICE BILL. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY DISAGREE WITH MY VIEWS ON DIFFERENT TOPICS. DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S CHINA TO ETHICAL ISSUES, BUT THEY RESPECT THAT I'M NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK UP. DO YOU THINK BEING OUTSPOKEN HAS HELD YOU BACK CAREER-WISE? BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT WHEN YOU CAME INTO PARLIAMENT AND THEN OTHERS WHO HAVE BEEN SORT OF PROMOTED FORWARD... YEAH, LOOK, IT ALWAYS COMES DOWN TO WHAT LEADERS WANT, BUT IT PROBABLY HAS HAD AN IMPACT. BUT YOU KNOW, I WENT INTO PARLIAMENT TO BE ME. I'M THERE TO REPRESENT THIS ELECTORATE. THE VAST MAJORITY... BUT THE ACT CANDIDATE WHO WORKED ON THE END OF LIFE CHOICE BILL IS POSITIONING HERSELF AS A LIBERAL VOICE FOR TAMAKI VOTERS. I WANT CONSERVATIVE AND SOCIALLY LIBERAL PEOPLE THROUGHOUT TAMAKI TO FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE WHO BELIEVES THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE CHOICE OVER HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES. THE ACT PARTY'S OWN INTERNAL POLLING PUTS NATIONAL AND ACT NECK AND NECK. CURRENTLY, HE'S ON 36%, I'M ON 34%. AND LABOUR ON 8%. OH ` LABOUR. (UPBEAT INDIE MUSIC) OVER IN GLEN INNES, TAMAKI'S LABOUR CANDIDATE, FESAITU SOLOMONE, 59 ON LABOUR'S LIST, SHARES A PREDICTION. BUT HEY, WHO KNOWS? YOU KNOW, THEY MIGHT EVENTUALLY SPLIT THE VOTE HERE IN OUR TAMAKI ELECTORATE AND LABOUR COULD POTENTIALLY COME THROUGH THE MIDDLE. UNLIKELY, SIMON SAYS. OVER IN ST HELIERS, THE POLITICIAN IS BUSY ADMIRING FUR BABIES. SO WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR TAMAKI? WHERE DO YOU REALLY START? IF YOU WANT TO, IT'S LITERALLY THE THOUSANDS OF LOCALS WHO HAVE COME IN, WHO NEED HELP FOR EVERYTHING FROM IMMIGRATION TO CITIZENSHIP TO THEY NEED A NEW STOVE AT THEIR HOUSING NZ PROPERTY. SO IF ACT DOES WELL IN THIS ELECTION, HOW MANY PLACES IN CABINET ARE YOU AFTER? WELL, THAT'S` THAT'S A QUESTION FOR POST-ELECTION, REALLY. LOOK, I THINK WE WANT TO WORK TIGHTLY WITH NATIONAL. I'VE BEEN IN PARLIAMENT NOW FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS, WAITING AT THE NEXT STREET CORNER, VOTERS WITH BURNING QUESTIONS ABOUT CO-GOVERNANCE, RACIAL EQUALITY AND TE REO. I THINK FIRSTLY, WE'VE GOT TO GO BACK TO HAVING ENGLISH FIRST AND THEN HAVE MAORI SECOND. WOMAN: YEAH. AND NOT COMBINED. YEAH. THE ACT DEPUTY LEADER HAS TWO MONTHS OF STREET CORNER MEETINGS AHEAD OF HER ` A CAMPAIGN DEVICE THAT WORKED WELL FOR EPSOM DAVID SEYMOUR. OOP. SORRY. SORRY. AND AS SIMON O'CONNOR'S LONG-TIME ELECTORATE, NEIGHBOUR DAVID SEYMOUR IS NOW LOOKING OVER THE FENCE. LOOK, DAVID AND I HAVE LOCKED HORNS ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES OVER THE YEARS. I'M SURE HE'D LOVE TO SEE ONE OF HIS OPPONENTS PUSHED OUT. I THINK HE'S GOING TO GET AN UNFORTUNATE SURPRISE ON OCTOBER 14, AS I KEEP SAYING, I MEAN, THIS IS MY COMMUNITY. I'VE WORKED IT HARD BECAUSE I LOVE THIS COMMUNITY. WHENA OWEN REPORTING. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE GREEN PARTY WANTS TO TURN MORE HOUSEHOLDS ON TO SOLAR ` AND THEY WANT TO HELP LANDLORDS TO HELP MAKE THE SWITCH. WELCOME BACK. THE GREEN PARTY WANTS TO GET MORE KIWI HOUSEHOLDS MAKING THE CLEAN ENERGY TRANSITION. IT'S CONFIRMED A POLICY WHICH WILL MEAN LANDLORDS CAN CLAIM DEDUCTIONS FOR THINGS LIKE INSTALLING SOLAR PANELS AND EV CHARGERS, AND HAS SET AN EXPLICIT TARGET FOR 3000 KAINGA ORA HOMES AND HAS SET AN EXPLICIT TARGET FOR 30,000 KAINGA ORA HOMES TO GO SOLAR IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS. GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW IS WITH US THIS MORNING. LET'S START WITH THE NEW SETTINGS FOR LANDLORDS. WHAT SPECIFICALLY WILL BE A DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSE? YOU NAMED IT, IT IS THINGS LIKE SOLAR PANELS AND BATTERIES, INSTALLING EV CHARGES BUT ALSO SWAPPING OUT GAS CHARGES, BECAUSE THE COST OF FOSSIL FUELS IS GOING UP AND ROOFTOP SOLAR IS REALLY CHEAP. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT TENANTS CAN SHARE IN THE BENEFITS OF SOLAR POWER AND ALSO LOWER HOUSEHOLD BILLS. WILL IT EXTEND TO GLAZING WINDOWS? THE IDEA IT HAS HAD TO GO ABOVE AND BEYOND OUR RENTAL WARRANT OF FITNESS SO THERE IS A MINIMUM THAT WE SAY THAT HOUSES NEED TO MEET IN ORDER TO GET THAT WARRANT OF FITNESS TO BE ON THE RENTAL MARKET. BUT EVEN AFTER HAVING DONE THOSE THINGS DINNERS WILL STILL BE IN PAYING HIGHER BILLS, SO WE CAN PUT SOLAR ON THE ROOF, THE BENEFIT WE PASSED THROUGH TO TENANTS WHO HAVE TO PAY THE BILLS. THERE IS A CAT WHEN IT COMES TO DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSES OF 18,000 ` IT STILL RELIES ON THE LANDLORD, HOW BIG YOU SPEAK THE UPTAKE TO BE? WE HAVE LOOKED AT COMPARISON COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. DIFFERENT ECONOMIES HAVE DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS BUT THE PROPOSAL THAT WE HAVE ON THE TABLE IS NOT THE SIMILAR TO WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN CANADA AND THEY HAVE GOT PRETTY GOOD UPTAKE THERE. AUSTRALIA HAS 30% SOLARISATION - WE ARE SITTING AT 8% IN AMERICA THINGS ARE MOVING PRETTY QUICKLY THERE. WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT WHERE THE NEW ZEALAND LANDLORD HAS NO INCENTIVE AT ALL TO INSTALL RETROFITS - BRINGING THE INTERESTS TOGETHER IS ULTIMATELY A WIN WIN. YOU HAD A POLICY WHEREBY YOU WOULD OFFER A 50% GRANT FOR SOLAR INSTALLATION - WILL YOU OFFER THE SAME TRHING THIS ELECTION? WE ARE NOT PRESCRIBING SOLAR PANELS PARTICULARLY, THERE MIGHT BE OTHER THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE. ULTIMATELY WHAT WE HAVE SAID IS THAT THE COST IS IS ABOUT 17,500, TO INSTALL THE SOLAR PANELS AND BATTERY, SO IT WILL VARY FROM PROPERTY TO PROPERTY. THIS POLICY THAT YOU ARE RELEASING TODAY IS FOR DEDUCTIBLE EXPENSES, BUT AS WITH 2020, WILL IT BE ANY OPPORTUNITY FOR HOME OWNERS AND LANDLORDS TO ACCESS GRANTS WHEN IT COMES TO THE INSTALLATION OF SOLAR. THE WHOLE POLICY IS GOING TO BE RELEASED AT 11 SO I CANNOT REALLY REVEAL EVERYTHING TO YOU, THAT THERE IS A PART OF THE SWITCH IS DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY AT ENSURING THAT TENANTS ARE ABLE TO SHARE IN THE BENEFITS OF LOWER POWER BILLS THAT GO WITH THAT. GOES BEYOND WE HAVE ALREADY PROPOSED AROUND UPGRADING THE HEALTHY HOME STANDARDS. GOES HAND-IN-HAND WITH SOLARISING KAINGA ORA HOUSING. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE? WE WANT TO SEE ALL OF THOSE WITH ROOFTOP SOLAR IS, IF YOU CAN HAVE ALL OF THE DEVICES RUNNING ON SOLAR FROM THE ROOFTOP, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT TENANTS IN KAINGA ORA SHARE IN THE BENEFITS OF REDUCED POWER BILLS AND CLEANER ENERGY. IS ADJUSTING TO KNOW THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, SOME OF THE PROMISES THAT HAVE COME FROM THE GOVERNMENT, THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT AT THE MOMENT, AND THE OPPOSITION, WE HAVE SEEN SOME BIG PROMISES WHEN IT COMES TO ROADS, DO YOU SENSE THAT THE ROLE OF CLIMATE AND THE AND THE SELECTION IS MEANINGFULLY DIFFERENT TO PREVIOUS CAMPAIGNS? WHAT I AM NOTICING IS THAT THE REACTION HAS BEEN PRETTY NEGATIVE FROM THE POPULATION AT LARGE. ESPECIALLY IN AUCKLAND WHERE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING FROM CONGESTION AND THE IMPACT ON PRODUCTIVITY WITH HAVING PEOPLE STUCK IN TRAFFIC FOR HOURS EVERY DAY. PEOPLE ACTUALLY REALISE AND WANT WAYS OF GETTING AROUND THAT DON'T LOCK THEM INTO HIGH CAR DEPENDENCY. THAT IS BAD FOR EVERYBODY. EVERY TIME YOU CAN SHIFT PEOPLE ONTO RAIL OR BICYCLES AND SO ON, ACTIVE MODES OF TRANSPORT, IT FREES UP CONGESTION. THE PROPOSAL TO BOOK 6 MORE LAYERS OF TRAFFIC IN AND OUT OF AUCKLAND IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE ITS CONGESTION PROBLEM, IS GOING TO INCREASE IT. IT IS A BIG DAY FOR POLICY. YOU WILL BE RELEASING YOUR FULL POLICY AT 11 TODAY, THE LABOUR POLICY WIDELY REPORTED TO BE A TAX POLICY, SCRAPPING THE GST ON FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. WHAT IS IT SAY ABOUT LABOUR? THAT FEELS LIKE WE'VE BEEN SHADOWBOXING A WEE BIT. THEY HAD NOT MADE A SPECIFIC ANNOUNCEMENT. BUT THE GREENS HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE COURSE OF THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN IS THAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE ENOUGH TO LIVE ON. THAT IS A FUNCTION OF THE INCOMES THEY EARN. THAT IS OUR INCOME GUARANTEE, THAT IS OUR SOLUTION, PAID FOR BY A WEALTH TAX. THAT WOULD ALLOW EVERYONE TO PAY FOR THE ESSENTIALS. STAY WITH US ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. JUST BEFORE WE GO, LABOUR IS EXPECTED TO ANNOUNCE THEIR LONG-AWAITED TAX POLICY TODAY. OPPOSITION MPS SAY THE POLICY WILL INCLUDE CUTTING GST FROM FRESH FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. EARLIER THIS YEAR, FINANCE MINISTER GRANT ROBERTSON DESCRIBED THE POLICY AS A 'BOONDOGGLE'. BUT HERE'S WHAT HE TOLD US ON Q+A LAST WEEK. WHY IS REMOVING GST ON FOOD A BOONDOGGLE? (CHUCKLES) LOOK, I'VE MADE THOSE COMMENTS AROUND THAT IN THE PAST AND YOU CAN LOOK AROUND THE WORLD AND SEE SOME ISSUES WHERE THOSE SORTS OF SCHEMES HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE. EQUALLY, YOU CAN SEE THAT MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD HAVE THOSE SCHEMES, AND SO, YOU KNOW, BOONDOGGLES CAN BE WORKED THROUGH. BOONDOGGLES CAN BE WORKED THROUGH. WE'LL HAVE COVERAGE ON 1NEWS.CO.NZ WHEN THINGS ARE CONFIRMED. KUA MUTU ` THAT'S Q+A. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI ` SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023