ATA MARIE E HOA MA, I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. COMING UP ` SHARPEN YOUR PITCHFORKS, WE HAVE THE GREENS' JAMES SHAW VERSUS NATIONAL'S SIMON WATTS IN OUR ELECTION CLIMATE DEBATE. KIERAN MCANULTY ON MAKING HEADLINES THIS WEEK, BEING TIPPED AS A POSSIBLE FUTURE LABOUR LEADER. PLUS, WHICH MP USED TO BE A SUBMARINER IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA? CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 CRIME AND THE COST OF LIVING ARE FRONT OF MIND THIS ELECTION, BUT OUR CLIMATE IS PROVIDING A THREATENING BACKDROP. THE REALITY OF EXTREME WEATHER LITERALLY WASHING THROUGH OUR COUNTRY THIS YEAR ` CHANGING COMMUNITIES FOREVER. HOLY (BLEEP). I THINK WE'VE GOTTA GO. A MONTH AND A HALF OF RAIN IN ONE NIGHT. THERE IT GOES. THERE IT GOES. OH, MY GOSH. TEARFULLY: NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION BEFORE. THIS WAS OUR TREASURE... AND IT'S GONE. TEARFULLY: SORRY. THE SUBWAY WAS NO MATCH FOR THE STORM. AN ETHEREAL PINK HUE SURROUNDING NEW YORK'S WORLD-FAMOUS SKYLINE TODAY. EUROPE'S HEATWAVE HAS ALREADY LEFT OVER 2000 PEOPLE DEAD. THE ERA OF GLOBAL BOILING HAS ARRIVED. JUST GO. WE CANNOT DO NOTHING FOR HER. THERE'S STILL PEOPLE MISSING. (SOBS) IT'S HARD TO THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW. DIDN'T HAVE ANY TIME TO GET OUT. DREADFUL SCENES FROM MAUI. SO TIME IS SHORT; NEW ZEALAND IS SMALL. HOW SHOULD WE TACKLE THIS THREAT? TO DEBATE THESE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, I AM JOINED BY GREEN'S SPOKESPERSON ON CLIMATE CHANGE JAMES SHAW, AND NATIONAL'S SPOKESPERSON ON CLIMATE CHANGE SIMON WATTS. TENA KORUA. LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO IT, SIMON WATTS, IF NATIONAL WINS THE ELECTION, YOU COULD BE THE CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER. HOW DOES THE WEIGHT OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY FEEL? IT'S THE REALITY THAT IN 51 DAYS IT COULD BE THE CASE. WE HAVE A STRONG POLICY PLATFORM IN REGARDS TO CLIMATE, AND ARE COMMITTED TO EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS TARGETS. WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD. WE NEED ACTION IN THIS SPACE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT MOST KIWIS ARE CALLING FOR` DO YOU FEEL THE WEIGHT OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY? THIS IS A MAJOR, MAJOR PORTFOLIO. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT ASPECTS FACING OUR COUNTRY, AND IN A GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT, AS WELL. IT'S AN ECONOMIC CONSIDERATION AS WELL AS THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH WE LIVE. JAMES SHAW, YOU ARE THE CURRENT CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER. WOULDN'T IT BE A RELIEF TO HAND IT OVER AFTER SIX YEARS? NO, I AM VERY, VERY COMMITTED TO FINISHING THE JOB I STARTED WHEN I GOT INTO GOVERNMENT IN 2017. I'M VERY PROUD OF THE WORK WE'VE DONE OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS, BUT WE ARE ONLY JUST GETTING THE MOMENTUM GOING, AND I WANT TO BE HERE TO ENSURE WE KEEP GOING THAT WAY. LET'S FOCUS ON WHERE YOU HAVE DIFFERENT VISIONS. THE FIRST IS THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT. IT HAS BEEN VERY POPULAR. THERE'S BEEN A BIG UPTAKE. SIMON, WOULD YOU STILL SCRAP THAT? ABSOLUTELY. WE DON'T BELIEVE TAKING UTES OFF FARMERS WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE AN OPTION TO TRANSITION TO CLEANER VEHICLES IS THE RIGHT THING, AND THE FACT THAT WE ARE PAYING WEALTHY PEOPLE TO SUBSIDISE BUYING THEM A TESLA, IS, WITH RESPECT` BUT WHAT ABOUT THE EMISSIONS THAT HAVE BEEN REDUCED? THE BIG CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE ALREADY PRODUCING EV VEHICLES. THAT'S THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL FOR THE MARKET. WE DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE TAXING PEOPLE THAT CAN'T HAVE ANY CHOICE, AND GIVING THAT MONEY TO THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD IT. JAMES, HE RAISES A POINT. HAS IT BEEN AN ELITIST POLICY THAT HAS ALLOWED TESLA OWNERS TO GET A GOOD DEAL? 6000, TESLA-WISE. THE MOST POPULAR EV. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE POLICY FOR BRINGING DOWN EMISSIONS. IT IS BRINGING DOWN EMISSIONS AT TWO-AND-A-HALF TIMES THE TOP SCENARIO THAT WE THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN. BEFORE THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT, ONE IN 100 NEW CARS SOLD IN THIS COUNTRY WAS AN ELECTRIC. IN THE MONTH OF JUNE, IT WAS ONE IN TWO. THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICIES THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THE TRANSPORT SPACE FOR BRINGING DOWN EMISSIONS. BUT IT DOESN'T TARGET THOSE WHO CANNOT AFFORD THOSE CARS. THAT IS WHY WE ALSO NEED TO INVEST IN PUBLIC TRANSPORT AND ACTIVE MODES OF WALKING, REDESIGNING OUR CITIES SO GETTING AROUND IS EASIER SO THERE IS LESS CONGESTION. YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THE POLICY, AND YOU WANT THE MARKET TO DICTATE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CARS. 40% OF OUR EMISSION PROFILE COMES FROM ENERGY IN TRANSPORT. WE HAVE A POLICY AROUND ELECTRIFIED NEW ZEALAND WHICH ALLOWS US TO TRANSITION OFF FOSSIL FUEL TRANSPORT ON TO ELECTRIFICATION. THAT IS THE MEANS WE NEED TO TAKE IN ORDER TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, AND THAT'S WHAT OUR POLICY SHOULD FOCUS ON. SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ROADS, I WILL INTRODUCE OUR FIRST QUESTION. THIS IS FROM SCHOOL STRIKES FOR CLIMATE'S AURORA GARNER-RANDOLPH, AND IT'S ON NATIONAL'S ROADING POLICY. WHY ON EARTH, IN A CLIMATE CRISIS, IS YOUR PARTY PRIORITISING ROADS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE, WHEN WHAT WOULD BENEFIT ORDINARY NEW ZEALANDERS IS ACTUALLY INVESTMENT INTO PASSENGER RAIL AND INVESTMENT INTO FREE PUBLIC TRANSPORT? HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT, SIMON WATTS? WITH RESPECT, BUSES AND EVs DRIVE ON ROADS. I THINK IT'S AN ILLOGICAL ARGUMENT TO SAY WE DON'T NEED ROADS. THE REALITY IS AS WE TRANSITION TO GREEN AND HYDROGEN BUSES AND CARS, THEY WILL NEED ROADS TO DRIVE ON. YOUR VISION OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS BUSES, IS THAT RIGHT? YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT RAIL AND LIGHT RAIL. WE HAVE ELEMENTS OF THAT, BUT WE ARE SUPPORTIVE AROUND BUS MASS RAPID TRANSIT IN ORDER TO REDUCE CONGESTION AND EMISSIONS, PARTICULARLY IN OUR URBAN CENTRES. JAMES, OBVIOUSLY PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS A KEY PART OF THE GREEN PARTY POLICY. BUT BUSES OBVIOUSLY DO NEED ROADS. THEY DO. BUT THERE'S NOT A CITY IN THE WORLD WHERE ADDING ONE MORE LANE OF TRAFFIC HAS SOLVED THE CONGESTION PROBLEM. YOU HAVE SOMETHING CALLED INDUCED DEMAND, WHERE THE MORE ROADS YOU BUILD, THE MORE TRAFFIC THAT YOU GET. AND THEN YOU RESPOND BY BUILDING YET MORE ROADS. IF YOU WANT TO REDUCE CONGESTION AND EMISSIONS, YOU HAVE TO GET PEOPLE INTO THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF MOVING AROUND AND BETWEEN OUR CITIES, AND THAT IS WITH RAPID TRANSIT MODES. THAT ACTUALLY ALLEVIATES ROAD SPACE FOR PEOPLE WHO DO NEED TO USE IT. IF YOU LOOK AT SINGAPORE, THE NETHERLANDS, THE TOP FIVE COUNTRIES IN THE GLOBE THAT HAVE THE BEST TRANSPORT AND ROADING NETWORKS, THEY ALSO HAVE REDUCED EMISSIONS. TO SAY THAT ROADS ARE A BARRIER TO REDUCING EMISSIONS IS NOT` YES I DO, ACTUALLY. THANK YOU FOR RAISING SINGAPORE AND THE NETHERLANDS. BECAUSE THEY HAVE HIGHER PETROL TAXES THAN WE DO AND HIGHER CHARGES THAN WE DO IN THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT, THEY HAVE ROAD USER CHARGES AS WELL. IF YOU WANT TO TALKING ABOUT DRIVING AS AN ELITIST ACTIVITY, IN SINGAPORE, VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE DRIVE ON THE ROADS. THE REASON THEY HAVE SUCH GOOD ROADS IS BECAUSE SO FEW PEOPLE USE THEM. WE CROWD EVERYBODY ON TO OUR ROADS, AND IN THE HEAVIEST VEHICLES AVAILABLE, WHICH IS WHY THE ROADS ARE IN SUCH BAD SHAPE. OK. THERE'S A CLEAR DIFFERENTIATION THERE. I WILL MOVE ON TO OUR NEXT TOPIC. WE HAVE SO MUCH TO GET THROUGH. LET'S TALK OUR FAVOURITE ONE ` AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS. METHANE GAS FROM COWS AND SHEEP. WE HAVE A QUESTION HERE FROM FEDERATED FARMERS PRESIDENT WAYNE LANGFORD. YEAH. WE THINK THE METHANE TARGETS NEED TO BE REVIEWED; THEY NEED TO BE SCIENTIFICALLY BASED; NEED TO BE ACHIEVABLE; AND THEY NEED TO BE PRACTICAL IN A WAY THAT FARMERS CAN ACHIEVE THEM OVER TIME. JAMES, THAT IS AIMED AT YOU. SHOULD THE METHANE TARGETS BE REVIEWED? THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION ARE REVIEWING ALL OF OUR TARGETS NEXT YEAR. THAT'S IN THE PRIMARY LEGISLATION. WHEN HE SAYS THEY WANT TO BE SCIENCE-BASED, OUR TARGETS ARE CURRENTLY WEAKER THAN WHAT THE SCIENCE SUGGESTS THEY SHOULD BE. SO YOU'D SAY IF THEY ARE REVIEWED, THEY SHOULD GET TOUGHER? IF YOU WERE TO REVIEW IT FROM THE SCIENCE, GIVEN THAT METHANE IS AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL SHORT-TERM GAS AND WE ARE UP AGAINST THE CLOCK IN TERMS OF NEEDING TO CONSTRAIN GLOBAL WARMING, I WOULD SAY THAT THEY SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT THEY WISH FOR, BECAUSE OVER A FIVE-YEAR PERIOD, OR OVER A 20-YEAR PERIOD, METHANE IS 86 TIMES MORE POWERFUL THAN CARBON DIOXIDE. SIMON WATTS, I WANT YOUR POSITION ON THIS` ON THE METHANE TARGETS FEDERATED FARMERS WANTS REVIEWED, AND THEY WANT THEM PROBABLY REDUCED, DON'T THEY? ABSOLUTELY, AND OUR POLICY WE'VE RELEASED AROUND AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS DICTATES THAT WE WILL BE REVIEWING THOSE IN 2024. WE HAVE JUST HEARD COMMENTS FROM A MINISTER THAT IS PART OF A GOVERNMENT WHICH HAS RELEASED ITS FOURTH VERSION OF AN AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS POLICY YESTERDAY THAT THE MINISTER DOESN'T AGREE WITH. THIS IS A BIT OF A SHAMBLES. I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT POLICY, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT WE WILL REDUCE EMISSIONS. YOUR POLICY IS TO DEFER ACTION BY ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS, AND THAT HAS BEEN YOUR POLICY SINCE THE YEAR 2000 TO KICK IT DOWN THE ROAD. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. WE HAVE INTRODUCED BIOTECHNOLOGY. YOUR PARTY HAS BLOCKED A NUMBER OF INNOVATIVE STUFF OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. I'M GOING TO BREAK THIS DOWN A LITTLE BIT. NATIONAL HAS PUSHED BACK TO 2030 THE IDEA OF FARMERS PAYING FOR EMISSIONS. WHERE IS THE URGENCY? WE HAVE SAID IN OUR POLICY THAT THE FIRST THING OFF THE CAB IS PROVIDING FARMERS WITH THE TOOLS TO REDUCE THEIR EMISSIONS. IS THE PROBLEM THAT THE TOOLS AREN'T HERE AND YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT THEY WILL BE HERE? WITH RESPECT TO THE GREEN PARTY, THEY HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING AGAINST A LOT OF BIOTECHNOLOGY AND GE ASPECTS OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. TOOLS WHICH COULD HELP OUR AGRICULTURAL SECTOR TO REDUCE EMISSIONS. WE HAVE SAID TO GET RID OF THAT RED TAPE NOW. THE GOVERNMENT HAS HAD SIX YEARS TO DO THAT. THAT IS A GOOD POINT, JAMES SHAW. YOU HAVE BEEN BLOCKING ANYTHING ON GMO. NO, WE HAVEN'T. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU HAVEN'T? WHAT IS THE GREEN PARTY POLICY ON GMO IN TERMS OF AGRICULTURAL GMO? THE POLICY IS TO APPLY THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE. IF WHAT SIMON IS TALKING ABOUT HERE IS RYEGRASS. EVEN IN THE LAB, IT IS UNPROVEN. IS THERE AN EXAMPLE OF COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD USING THIS RYEGRASS TECHNOLOGY? NO, NOT IN THE FIELD YET. THERE ARE TESTS GOING ON HERE AND IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THE RESULTS ARE INCONCLUSIVE. IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT OUR TRACK RECORD, THIS GOVERNMENT HAS POURED ALMOST HALF A BILLION DOLLARS INTO R&D AND INCENTIVES IN WORKING WITH INDUSTRY, ON TOP OF $200 MILLION THAT WAS SPENT OVER THE PRECEDING YEARS. SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S NOT READY. WHAT I'M SAYING IS, IF YOU WANT TO WAIT AROUND FOR A SILVER BULLET RATHER THAN FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS WE KNOW WORK NOW, WHEN WE ARE AGAINST THE CLOCK AND ARE IN A CLIMATE EMERGENCY, KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD AND WAITING TO ACT` $20bn INDUSTRY, JAMES. WITH RESPECT, YOUR POLICY YESTERDAY WILL DECIMATE 20% OF LAMB AND BEEF FARMS. JAMES DOESN'T AGREE WITH THAT ONE. IT IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE MECHANISM FOR OUR BROADER ECONOMY, AND WE NEED A MUCH MORE PRAGMATIC AND SENSIBLE POLICY. AND WE'VE GOT A PATHWAY TO GET THERE. IT'S THE SAME PATHWAY YOU'VE BEEN ON FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS, KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR POLICY. HE WAKA EKE NOA WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A WORLD-FIRST THE FIRST TO PRICE IN AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS; THERE HAS BEEN NO AGREEMENT ON IT, AND AS CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER, YOU DON'T AGREE WITH LABOUR'S POSITION. IT SEEMS LIKE A REAL MESS. I WOULD AGREE. THE PROBLEM YOU'VE GOT IS IN LEAVING THE INDUSTRY TO DEVELOP A SYSTEM, THEY FOCUS ON CONSENSUS BETWEEN THE INDUSTRY PLAYERS, RATHER THAN SOMETHING EFFECTIVE. MY OBJECTION IS THAT WE SHOULD PRICE IT ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE WE PRICE EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ECONOMY. SO YOU PLACE AN ABSOLUTE CAP ON EMISSIONS, YOU REDUCE IT INCREMENTALLY OVER TIME, YOU ALLOW FARMERS TO TRADE WITH EACH OTHER, IN ORDER TO SAY THAT THOSE WHO ARE THE MOST INNOVATIVE CAN GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT. OK, SO THAT IS YOUR POLICY. AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT YOUR POLICY. I'M GOING TO MOVE ON. THERE IS ONE PIECE OF CRITICISM THIS WEEK, SIMON, THAT NATIONAL HAS NOT CALCULATED THE EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS OF ANY OF ITS POLICIES. IS THAT RIGHT OR WRONG? TRANSPORT, IN ENERGY, IS 40%. OUR POLICY AROUND ELECTRIFY NEW ZEALAND SAYS WE CAN SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCE THAT BY A THIRD. WHEN YOU GET INTO THE AGRICULTURAL SPACE, YES, WHEN YOU INTRODUCE INNOVATION IN ORDER TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS TO HOW MUCH THAT WILL REDUCE. ISN'T THAT THE PROBLEM? IT IS NOT A PROBLEM UNIQUE TO NEW ZEALAND. IT IS AN INTERNATIONAL PROBLEM AROUND HOW THE SOLVE THE REDUCTION IN METHANE FOR AGRICULTURE GLOBALLY. NEW ZEALAND CAN AND SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEAD ON COMING UP WITH SOME OF THOSE ANSWERS. I'M GOING TO MOVE ON. I THINK I'LL JUST MOVE ON TO CLIMATE ADAPTATION, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT SO MANY THINGS TO GET THROUGH. CLIMATE ADAPTATION AND MANAGED RETREAT ` THERE WAS AN INTERESTING GOVERNMENT WORKING GROUP OUT THIS WEEK, AND IT CAME UP WITH AN INTERESTING COMPENSATION MODEL. AND THAT IS THAT IF YOU ARE FORCED TO MOVE BY CLIMATE CHANGE, AND THERE IS COMPENSATION IF YOU OWN A HOUSE, IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS, IF YOU ARE A LANDLORD, BUT IF YOU HAVE A BACH, THERE IS NO COMPENSATION FOR YOU. JAMES, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT MODEL? WHAT WE'VE DONE IS WE'VE SAID WE'RE GONNA SET UP A SPECIALIST SELECT COMMITTEE WHICH WILL THEN DRAFT LEGISLATION, AND THAT SELECT COMMITTEE WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO ALL OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT ARE IN THAT EXPERT WORKING GROUP REPORT. THAT IS NOT A YES OR NO. NO IT'S NOT. I ACTUALLY WANNA SEE` THIS IS ONE OF THOSE MASSIVE CHALLENGES THAT WE'VE GOTTA FACE OVER MANY DECADES; SEVERAL CHANGES OF GOVERNMENT. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT ON THIS POINT, WE HAVE PARLIAMENTARY CONSENSUS. AND SO REGARDLESS OF WHAT MY PERSONAL VIEWS ARE ABOUT ANY OF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS, I DO WANT THAT SELECT COMMITTEE TO COME TO A VIEW BEFORE WE DRAFT FOR LEGISLATION. RIGHT. SIMON, JUST A BRIEF RESPONSE ON THAT? LOOK, THE REALITY IS, THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAT ON ITS HANDS FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS IN ORDER TO PUT IN PLACE A NATIONAL FRAMEWORK THAT CAN ANSWER THAT EXACT QUESTION. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH` SO YOU'RE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF WHAT JAMES IS SAYING? WE ARE SUPPORTIVE THAT WE NEED TO MOVE WITH ABSOLUTE PACE, AND I GUESS THE FRUSTRATION IS THE GOVERNMENT'S HAD 6 YEARS TO DO THIS, AND HAVE JUST KICKED OFF SOMETHING TWO WEEKS BEFORE PARLIAMENT RISES. THE EVENTS OF WEATHER EVENTS IN AUCKLAND NEARLY 7 MONTHS AGO, INCLUDING IN MY HOME ELECTORATE, AND MY HOME AS WELL, ARE REAL. WE NEED A FRAMEWORK AT A NATIONAL LEVEL THAT INCLUDES LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, BANKS AND INSURERS TO COME UP WITH THE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS YOU ARE ASKING. THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT TERM OF PARLIAMENT, WHOEVER'S IN POWER. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE COST TO THE CONSUMER OF CARBON TAXES. SO, THERE'S TAXES ON OUR PETROL AND OUR GAS. SHOULD THE MONEY RAISED FROM THAT GO STRICTLY INTO CLIMATE INITIATIVES OR SHOULD SOME OF IT BE RETURNED TO US TO EASE THE COST OF LIVING WITH A CARBON DIVIDEND? WHAT DO YOU THINK, SIMON? LOOK, WE'RE ABSOLUTELY SUPPORTIVE THAT ELEMENTS OF THAT ETS ARE DISTRIBUTED TO HOUSEHOLDS. BECAUSE, I THINK, THE REALITY IS THAT IT'S SIMPLE AND PRAGMATIC; IT'S A TAX ON POLLUTION. AND, YOU KNOW, AT THE MOMENT, WE'VE GOT A COST OF LIVING CRISIS, WE'VE GOT PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY STRUGGLING, AND THE CONCEPT OF A CARBON DIVIDEND IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE SUPPOR` WHAT ABOUT YOU, JAMES? YEAH, WE'RE SUPPORTIVE OF IT AS WELL. WE GOT A WORK PROGRAM TO INVESTIGATE THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE INCREASES IN THE COST OF CARBON EFFECT HOUSEHOLDS DISPROPORTIONATELY. SO WE ARE WORKING ON THAT. HAVING SAID THAT, THE SOLUTION HERE IS TO GET HOUSEHOLDS OFF FOSSIL FUEL, SO THE GREENS RELEASED OUR POLICY A FEW WEEKS AGO, WHICH IS TO HELP HOUSEHOLDS TO ELECTRIFY AT HOME, TO GET RID OF GAS CONNECTIONS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, BECAUSE THAT DOES TWO THINGS ` GETS YOU OFF FOSSIL FUELS AND IT BRINGS DOWN YOUR HOUSEHOLD POWER BILLS. BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONSENSUS ON THAT. DON'T FORGET, NATIONAL INTRODUCED WARMING UP HOMES POLICY. 241,000 HOMES THAT WE PUT INSULATION INTO. SO AGAIN, WE'VE GOT TRACK RECORD AND DELIVERY IN THAT SPACE. I HAVE TO MOVE ON BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT THE ELECTION. THIS PARTICULAR CARBON DIVIDEND IS ALSO A POLICY OF ACT, RIGHT? SO, SIMON, I JUST WONDER, IF ACT COMES ALONG AND SAYS, 'WE WANT THE CARBON DIVIDEND', BUT THEY WANT TO SCRAP ALMOST EVERYTHING ELSE, LIKE CARBON ZERO ACT AND ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, WHAT WILL YOU CONCEDE TO GET A COALITION WITH ACT? LOOK, NATIONAL ARE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO OUR EMISSION REDUCTION TARGETS. I'M NOT THE LEADER, SO I WON'T BE NEGOTIATING THE COALITION AGREEMENT. AND SO YOU'RE COMMITTED TO THE NET ZERO CARBON ACT AS WELL? ABSOLUTELY, AND ACTUALLY, SO IS MEMBERS OF THE ACT PARTY... NO, THEY'RE NOT. ...YOU WERE SITTING IN THE CHAIR, JAMES, SAID THAT WE SUPPORT NET ZERO. THEIR POLICY IS TO REPEAL THE ZERO CARBON ACT, DISESTABLISH THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY SAID THIS WEEK. THAT IS THEIR POLICY ON THEIR WEBSITE. YOUR COALITION PARTNER IS INCOHERENT ON THIS POINT. YEAH. OK. IT ALL FEELS A BIT DOOM AND GLOOM AND A BIT... WE'RE ALL IN A REALLY BAD SITUATION. THERE'S ONE MORE PERSON I WANT TO HEAR FROM. THIS IS MIKE SMITH ` HE IS THE CLIMATE RESILIENCE ORGANISER FROM THE IWI CHAIRS FORUM. LET'S HAVE A LISTEN. CLIMATE CHANGE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A NEGATIVE, TOTALLY. THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO CHANGE THE SETTINGS, TO CHANGE OUR SYSTEMS, AND TO BE TRANSFORMATIVE AND HAVE A CULTURE AND PARADIGM SHIFT THAT'S SO DESPERATELY NEEDED. RIGHT, SO, 'AN OPPORTUNITY,' SIMON. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH MIKE SMITH THERE? I ABSOLUTELY DO. THE REALITY IS IS THAT WE NEED TO TAKE ACTION IN ORDER TO MEET OUR EMISSION REDUCTION TARGETS. NATIONAL ARE COMMITTED TO DO THAT, AND WE HAVE A CLEAR PLAN TO DO THAT. IN RESPECT OF WORKING IN A BIPARTISAN MANNER, NATIONAL HAS, THROUGHOUT THE ACTIONS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN IN THE PAST, DONE THAT IN A WAY WHICH IS CONSTRUCTIVE AND WE CONTINUE TO DO SO. RIGHT, OK. JAMES, YOU'VE BEEN OVERSEEING THE CATASTROPHES. IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY AS WELL? YES` AND I MEAN PERSONALLY, BY THE WAY. NO. LOOK, I SAY THIS ALL THE TIME, THAT IF YOU ACTUALLY FOCUS ON THE SOLUTIONS, LIKE THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT, LIKE PUTTING SOLAR PANELS ON ROOFS AND INSULATING THEIR HOMES AND SO ON AND SO FORTH, YOU SEE ECONOMIC BENEFITS, YOU SEE HEALTH BENEFITS, YOU SEE PEOPLE'S HOUSEHOLD POWER BILLS COMING DOWN, ALL OF THOSE THINGS LEAD TO A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE AND LOWER LIVING COSTS AND LESS INFLATION THAN WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT. CAN WE AGREE ON THE URGENCY OF THIS? SIMON, CAN WE AGREE ON THE URGENCY? ABSOLUTELY. WE NEED A STEP CHANGE IN THE PACE OF THE ACTION TO` THAT REQUIRED... RIGHT, AND YOU OBVIOUSLY FEEL THE SAME WAY, JAMES SHAW? I DO, AND I'M VERY PLEASED THAT NATIONAL HAVE SIGNED UP TO THE ZERO CARBON ACT AND THOSE LONG-TERM TARGETS, BUT EVERY SINGLE POLICY THAT WE HAVE PUT IN PLACE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE CRISIS, THEY HAVE VOTED AGAINST. OK. AFTER THIS ELECTION, CAN YOU BOTH GUARANTEE, WHOEVER IS IN POWER, A SENSE OF BIPARTISANSHIP OVER THIS ISSUE? ABSOLUTELY. I WILL ALWAYS WORK ACROSS PARLIAMENT TO TRY AND ENSURE THAT WE ACTUALLY GET THE ACTION THAT WE NEED. OK, THAT'S THE END OF OUR DEBATE. JAMES SHAW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. SIMON WATTS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL NICOLA TOKI, ISOBEL EWING AND MATTHEW HOOTON. PLUS, ONE-ON-ONE WITH LABOUR RISING STAR KIERAN MCANULTY. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. EVERY GOVERNMENT NEEDS A MS OR MR FIX IT, AND LATELY, THAT'S BEEN WAIRARAPA MP KIERAN MCANULTY. HE'S RISEN QUICKLY UP THE RANKS WITHIN THE PARTY, PICKING UP PORTFOLIOS AS MINISTERS HAVE BEEN SACKED OR RESIGNED. HE'S A STRAIGHT-TALKING, SAFE PAIR OF HANDS, BUT COULD HE BE MORE THAN THAT? THE HERALD'S AUDREY YOUNG THINKS SO, TIPPING MCANULTY THIS WEEK AS A FUTURE PARTY LEADER. SO NATURALLY, I SAT DOWN WITH HIM TO SEE HOW HE IS HANDLING THE ATTENTION. YOU HAVE GOT A LOT OF JOBS. THAT IS SORT OF THE FIRST THING TO SAY ABOUT YOU. YOU ARE THE MP FOR WAIRARAPA, YOU ARE DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE, MINISTER FOR EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT, RACING, REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT, RURAL COMMUNITIES, LOCAL GOVERNMENT, MINISTERIAL LEAD FOR CYCLONE RECOVERY IN THE HAWKE'S BAY, TARARUA AND THE WAIRARAPA REGIONS, AND THERE'S ANOTHER ROLE THAT YOU'VE BEEN TOUTED FOR THIS WEEK, WHICH IS LEADER IN OPPOSITION IF CHRIS HIPKINS CAN'T GET THERE IN OCTOBER. (CHUCKLES) YEAH. YEAH, THAT ONE MADE ME LAUGH. I CAN SAY TO YOU RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT INTERESTED. COULDN'T BE LESS INTERESTED. IT IS SORT OF THE KISS OF DEATH, ISN'T IT? BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THAT YOU WERE SINGLED OUT? WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GO INTO OPPOSITION. AND SECOND OF ALL, I'M RELIEVED TO HEAR THAT IT'S A KISS OF DEATH BECAUSE HOPEFULLY THAT JUST KILLS THE WHOLE THING OFF AND I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. NOT INTERESTED AT ALL? NO, NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. WHY NOT? WELL, NOT EVERYBODY THAT COMES IN HERE WANTS TO BE PM. IT'S TRUE. THERE'S 120 MPs, AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT ALL OF THEM WANT TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER, AND I'M ONE OF THOSE. I GENUINELY` ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS BE THE MP FOR MY HOME REGION. AND THE LAST THREE YEARS HAVE BEEN THE PRIVILEGE OF MY LIFE. I NEVER EXPECTED TO BE A MINISTER. OBVIOUSLY, IF IT COMES ALONG, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SAY NO. AND IT DID AND I DIDN'T, AND I'M ENJOYING IT. BUT THIS IS AS FAR AS I EVER THOUGHT I'D GET AND I'M HAPPY WHERE I AM. WE'LL, YOU'RE A MINISTER OF QUITE A LOT OF STUFF... IT'S PRETTY FULL-ON, I'LL BE HONEST. IT'S ALL GO. IT STRIKES ME THAT... PART OF YOUR APPEAL IS THAT YOU'RE A STRAIGHT TALKER, YOU CONNECT WITH EVERYDAY NEW ZEALANDERS AND THAT'S PART OF THE REASON I THINK THAT YOU STAND OUT OR THAT YOU'RE NOTICED. BUT I WONDERED, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE LABOUR PARTY? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE LABOUR PARTY HAS DRIFTED FROM? NO, I DON'T THINK SO. IF YOU LOOK AT WHO'S IN THE CAUCUS, YOU'VE GOT PEOPLE LIKE DAN ROSWARNE WHO UNTIL RECENTLY WAS A SERVING SOLDIER, WE'VE GOT TRADESPEOPLE, WE'VE GOT PEOPLE WITH BUSINESS BACKGROUNDS, FARMING BACKGROUNDS, THOSE FROM TEACHING AND LAWYERS AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF. WE'RE DIVERSE, JUST LIKE NEW ZEALAND. BUT THE HIGH PROFILE ONES, OUR POLITICIANS... YOU'RE DIFFERENT TO THEM. YOUR SUPERPOWER IS THAT YOU ARE SORT OF AN ANTI-POLITICIAN. AND IT STRIKES ME THAT THAT IS THE REASON THAT PEOPLE ARE DRAWN TO YOU OR THAT YOU STAND OUT. DO YOU SEE THAT ABOUT YOURSELF? NO, I JUST DON'T KNOW MANY BIG WORDS, I THINK THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. YOU KNOW... I LOVE THIS JOB. IT'S AN AWESOME THING TO DO, A MASSIVE PRIVILEGE. YOU KNOW, WHEN SOMEONE COMES INTO OUR OFFICE IN MASTERTON AND THEY'VE HAD A STRING OF BAD LUCK AND WE FIND THEM A HOUSE OR WE HELP THEM GET FINANCIAL SUPPORT OR HELP THEM WITH ACC, OR` JUST RECENTLY I GOT FUNDING FOR NEW TRAINS FOR THE REGION. THAT'S MASSIVE. AND THAT'S` THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THIS. I DON'T KNOW WHY I'VE STOOD OUT. I TRY NOT TO THINK ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE. AND AT THE END OF THE DAY I JUST LOVE PLAYING CRICKET AND HANGING OUT WITH MY FAMILY AND MY MATES AND DOING STUFF IN MY REGION. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE LIKE YOU. (CHUCKLES) YOU'RE MAKING IT WORSE, KIERAN, NOT BETTER. IT'S NOT... IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. WELL, LET'S FOCUS ON THE JOBS THAT YOU CURRENTLY HAVE NOW. THE CYCLONE RECOVERY` THAT IS A MASSIVE ONE FOR THOSE REGIONS. IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S` I SUPPOSE YOU COULD SAY IT'S BEEN A BIT OF A SHIT-SHOW IN CABINET RECENTLY, IN TERMS OF THE TURNOVER OF MINISTERS AND THE FACT THAT YOU'VE NOW BEEN THROUGH` YOU ARE THE FOURTH, I THINK. ARE YOU THE FOURTH MINISTER? THIRD. THE THIRD MINISTER? SO IT'S NOT THAT BAD. OK, WELL, IT'S STILL NOT GOOD. BUT THE THIRD MINISTER IN THAT REGION AT A TIME THAT IS REALLY CRITICAL FOR THEM. IS THAT DISRUPTIVE TO THE RESPONSE? IT HASN'T ACTUALLY BEEN. I THINK IT COULD HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE, BUT IT HASN'T WORKED OUT THAT WAY. I MEAN, WE COMMITTED TO A REGIONALLY-LED RESPONSE AND STILL STAND BY THAT, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW CIVIL DEFENCE WORKS IN NEW ZEALAND. YEAH, BUT YOU'RE NOT OF THAT REGION. PART OF HAWKE'S BAY IS IN MY ELECTORATE. A SMALL PART. NEVERTHELESS. AS A RESULT OF` YOU'LL CLAIM THAT. WELL... BUT IF THAT WAS THE THRUST, RIGHT, WAS A REGIONALLY-LED RESPONSE, AND YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH TWO MINISTERS THERE, ONE IN TAIRAWHITI, NOW YOU HAVE GRANT ROBERTSON RUNNING IT FROM WELLINGTON AND YOU FROM THE WAIRARAPA, THE EDGE OF THE REGION. THAT'S NO LONGER A REGIONALLY-LED RESPONSE, REALLY, IS IT? WELL, WHAT WE MEAN BY REGIONALLY-LED IS LED BY THE REGION, NOT BY A REGIONALLY-BASED MINISTER. WELL, THAT'S WHAT YOU MEANT IN THE OUTSET, THOUGH. NO, NO, I DISAGREE. IT'S REALLY` IT'S THE LOCAL COUNCILS AND THE LOCAL AGENCIES TELLING THEIR DESIGNATED MINISTER WHAT THEY NEED AND THEN IT'S THE MINISTER'S JOB TO GO AND GET IT. AND THAT'S HOW WE'VE GONE ABOUT IT THE WHOLE WAY. YEAH, WELL, WE ARE SIX MONTHS ON FROM THE CYCLONE NOW AND WE'VE STILL GOT PEOPLE LIVING IN CARAVANS IN EMERGENCY HOUSING, STILL USING PORTALOOS ` SIX MONTHS USING A PORTALOO. I MEAN, IT HASN'T MOVED FAST ENOUGH FOR SOME PEOPLE, HAS IT? I DON'T BLAME THEM FOR THINKING THAT, BECAUSE OF COURSE YOU WOULD. IT'S ONLY THE THIRD TIME THAT WE'VE EVER HAD A NATIONAL STATE OF EMERGENCY. EVERY STEP OF THE WAY WE'VE HAD IN MIND THAT WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW IS ESSENTIALLY GOING TO BE THE BLUEPRINT FOR WHAT WE DO FOR THE NEXT EVENT. AND FRANKLY, THERE'S GOING TO BE PLENTY MORE. YES, BUT HAS THAT SLOWED IT DOWN? I DON'T THINK SO. THESE WEATHER EVENTS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN MORE FREQUENTLY. YEAH, AND THIS IS THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRISTCHURCH, WHICH WAS CLASSIFIED KIND OF AS A ONE-OFF EVENT, WHICH IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT BOUGHT OUT THOSE PROPERTIES AT 100%, AND THESE REGIONS. THAT'S WHY YOU'VE LANDED ON 50, IS BECAUSE IT PROBABLY WILL KEEP HAPPENING, AND YOU CAN'T KEEP BUYING UP PROPERTIES AT 100% EACH TIME. WELL, WHETHER YOU INTEND TO OR NOT, YOU ESSENTIALLY SET A PRECEDENT, AND THAT'S GOING TO APPLY MOVING FORWARD. YEAH, WELL, SOME OF THE WORDS THAT PEOPLE USE TO DESCRIBE THE UNCERTAINTY ARE 'CRIPPLING AND PARALYSING'. AND IT IS YOUR JOB TO SIT IN CABINET AND ADVOCATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE AND THEIR SITUATIONS TO DRIVE THOSE ENTITIES OUT IN THE REGIONS AND COUNCIL AND BRING IT ALL TOGETHER. BUT WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL LIVING IN LIMBO NOW, WHO ARE LOOKING TO YOU AS THEIR ADVOCATE HERE IN THIS PLACE? WE HAVE THEIR BACK AND WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE OK. I'M AS FRUSTRATED AS ANYONE, BECAUSE THESE THINGS TAKE LONGER THAN ANYONE WANTS. BUT THERE'S NO REAL TIMELINE FOR THESE PEOPLE, IS THERE? THERE'S NOTHING THAT YOU CAN TELL THEM ABOUT A TIMELINE. WE'RE NOT GOING TO LIE TO THEM AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO MISLEAD THEM. IF WE KNEW HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE, WE'D LET THEM KNOW. BUT WE DON'T. AND RIGHT THROUGHOUT, WE'VE TRIED TO BE UPFRONT. WELL, QUICK QUESTION JUST ON THAT, BUT HAVE YOU GOT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR THE PACKAGES THAT YOU HAVE PUT IN PLACE ALREADY, OR IS THERE A CHANCE THAT IF YOU DON'T DO IT IN OCTOBER, THAT THE GOVERNMENT, THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, COULD COME ALONG AND CHANGE IT, UNDO IT, DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, THAT IT MIGHT BE SET BACK AGAIN? I REALLY HOPE NOT. LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I DON'T THINK THE GOVERNMENT WILL CHANGE, BUT IF IT DOES... BUT HAVE YOU GOT THAT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT? WELL, YOU CAN SORT OF GET A STEER. I MEAN, I'VE GOT GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE LIKES OF` YOU DON'T DO YOU? IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOU DO. AT NO POINT HAVE THEY SAID YOU'RE DOING THE WRONG THING IN TERMS OF THE LEVELS OF SUPPORT, BUT THEY HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CERTAIN OTHER ASPECTS OF IT. BUT I HOPE THEY DON'T CHANGE THE SUPPORT BECAUSE WHAT THE SECTOR HAS TOLD US... SO RATHER THAN HOPE THEY DON'T CHANGE, WHY NOT GET THAT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AT THE TIME? WELL, ULTIMATELY, THAT'S A DECISION FOR THEM. I CAN'T PREDICT WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO. DID YOU GO TO THEM? WE HAVE BEEN ENGAGING WITH THEM THROUGHOUT THE RESPONSE. IN TERMS OF THE RECOVERY, THEY'VE BEEN INFORMED OF WHAT'S HAPPENING. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE` KEEPING IN MIND THESE HAVEN'T BEEN MY DECISIONS AS MINISTER; THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER MINISTERS. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN THERE` SUPPORT HAS BEEN SOUGHT FOR THAT. DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE ALONGSIDE THE REGIONS AND ALONGSIDE THE SECTORS, BUT CERTAINTY IS KEY HERE BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHERE THEY STAND NOW, THEY KNOW THE SUPPORT THAT'S THERE, AND THEY'RE MAKING INFORMED DECISIONS THAT ARE BEST FOR THEMSELVES, THEIR FAMILIES AND THEIR BUSINESSES. THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN NOW IS THAT SUPPORT PACKAGE IS CHANGING AND CHANGING EVERYTHING THEY'VE GOT IN PLACE. THAT'S WHY BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR WHAT YOU'VE PUT IN PLACE WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY GOOD. WHAT I FOUND IN THIS PLACE IS IF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, THEY LET YOU KNOW PRETTY QUICK. OK. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT LESSONS LEARNED FROM CYCLONE GABRIELLE. AND YOU'VE GOT A REVIEW GOING ON INTO THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE THAT'S DUE TO REPORT BACK IN MARCH NEXT YEAR, I THINK. WHY DOES IT TAKE OVER A YEAR TO DO A REVIEW? YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THE LESSONS NEED TO BE LEARNED` IT SEEMS LIKE A SANITISED KIND OF PROCESS. IT'S SORT OF A LITTLE CYNICAL, IT GETS KICKED OUT TILL AFTER THE ELECTION. IT'S AFTER THE PERIOD OF CURRENT INTEREST. WHY NOT... WHY NOT LEARN THE LESSONS SORT IT OUT, MOVE ON RATHER THAN THIS BIG SORT OF CONVOLUTED YEAR, OVER A YEAR-LONG PROCESS? THERE'S ONE PORTFOLIO IN THIS PLACE WHERE THERE ISN'T ANY ROOM FOR POLITICS OR CYNICISM, AND THAT'S EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT. WE WORK INCREDIBLY CONSTRUCTIVELY WITH ALL PARTIES ON THIS BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT TO GET IT RIGHT. WE'RE IN THE PROCESS` WE WERE DUE TO INTRODUCE AN EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT BILL IN THE HOUSE, IRONICALLY, THE WEEK THAT GABRIELLE HIT. AND WHAT THAT BILL IS PROPOSING IS CHANGES THAT HAVE COME ABOUT FROM PREVIOUS REVIEWS THAT HAVE LOOKED AT CHRISTCHURCH AND KAIKOURA AND OTHER PREVIOUS EVENTS. WELL, THOSE WERE YEARS AGO. YES. SO WHAT DOES IT TAKE YEARS TO MAKE THOSE CHANGES? BECAUSE THE SAME THING COULD HAPPEN AGAIN TODAY. IT COULD. AND THERE'S EVERY CHANCE THAT WE CAN IMPROVE THE BILL, BECAUSE FROM THE LESSONS FROM GABRIELLE, WHICH IS WHY WE'VE TIMED IT LIKE WE HAVE. BUT` THE SELECT COMMITTEE IS DUE` BUT THIS IS EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT. YES. EMERGENCY IS URGENT. MM-HM. AND YET YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INTRODUCING A BILL THAT GOES BACK TO CHRISTCHURCH AND KAIKOURA. THERE'S LESSONS THAT HAVE COME OUT FROM THOSE THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH VARIOUS REVIEWS THAT HAVE COME FROM THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT AND THIS GOVERNMENT. BUT THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING IS THE PROBLEM IS THIS CULTURE OF REVIEW. WHY NOT JUST LEARN THE LESSONS, ENACT THE CHANGES, GET THEM` GET THE SYSTEMS UP TO SCRATCH AND MOVE ON. THIS IS A SORT OF CULTURE OF REVIEW. IF WE WEREN'T TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY, I'D TAKE YOUR POINT, BUT TO MY ORIGINAL POINT IS THAT THERE IS A REAL CULTURE IN CIVIL DEFENCE AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS LOOKING TO IMPROVE AND IT'S THE THING THAT IMPRESSES ME THE MOST. THEY DO A REVIEW AFTER EVERY SINGLE EVENT, NO MATTER HOW SMALL TO LOOK, HOW TO IMPROVE. SO WHERE'S THE... WHERE'S THE DISCONNECT THEN? BECAUSE WHY AREN'T THOSE CHANGES BEING IMPLEMENTED AND GOT RUNNING THROUGH THIS PLACE? IS THAT THE DISCONNECT? THIS PLACE? NOT ALL CHANGES REQUIRE A LAW CHANGE. OK. AND SO AFTER EVERY EVENT, NO MATTER HOW SMALL, THEY DO A REVIEW AND THEY MAKE CHANGES. SO HAS THAT HAPPENED AROUND GABRIELLE? WELL, SOME THINGS HAVE ALREADY. THERE'S BEEN IMPROVEMENTS OVER THE RESPONSE. IT WAS RESPONDING BETTER TO EACH INDIVIDUAL REGION, EVEN JUST AFTER A COUPLE OF DAYS THAN IT WAS ORIGINALLY INITIALLY. BUT SOME THINGS REQUIRE LAW CHANGES AND THAT'S THE PROCESS THAT'S GOING THROUGH AT THE MOMENT. THERE'S NO POINT PASSING THIS BILL KNOWING THAT THERE'S LESSONS FROM GABRIELLE AND THEN WE MIGHT HAVE TO WAIT WHO KNOWS HOW LONG TO PUT THAT INTO LAW. LET'S JUST DO IT ALL AT ONCE. I HAVE TO BE TOTALLY FRANK WITH YOU, AND THAT SOUNDS LIKE A BUREAUCRATIC NIGHTMARE, A LONG PROCESS, SORT OF REVIEW ON REVIEW ON REVIEW, AND NOW YOU MIGHT GET YOUR SORT OF OMNIBUS BILL THROUGH AT THE SAME TIME, BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO ME TO BE THE WAY THAT YOU LIKE TO OPERATE. WELL, THIS IS HOW I SET IT UP. (LAUGHS) I THOUGHT YOU'RE A GUY WHO LIKED TO GET THINGS DONE. AND I AM. WE KNOW THAT THIS IS THE BIGGEST WEATHER EVENT WE'VE EVER HAD. THERE DEFINITELY WILL BE LESSONS. I DON'T WANT TO MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY, SO I'VE TIMED IT SO THAT WHEN SIR JERRY AND HIS PANEL REPORT BACK, THEY WILL IDENTIFY LESSONS. I'M NOT GOING TO MUCK AROUND. I'M JUST GOING TO PUT THEM STRAIGHT INTO THE BILL, PASS IT, AND THEN IT'S ALL IN PLACE. WELL, SOMETHING THAT THE NATS ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO REPEAL IS THE THREE WATERS LEGISLATION IF THEY GET IN. ARE WE STILL CALLING IT THREE WATERS? IT'S AFFORDABLE WATER NOW. AFFORDABLE WATER, OK. AFFORDABLE WATER. WELL, THEY'RE GOING TO REPEAL IT, AREN'T THEY? I DON'T BELIEVE THEM. YOU DON'T? WHY NOT? DO YOU THINK THEY'RE BLUFFING? I THINK THEY'RE PARTICIPATING IN POLITICS, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THEY WILL. AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY, IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE CAMPAIGNING AS IF THERE'S BEEN NO CHANGES MADE. AND WHAT THEY ARE PROPOSING IS THE STATUS QUO, WHICH THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT SECTOR DON'T WANT. WE CAN PROVE WHAT WE'RE DOING WILL SAVE RATEPAYERS MONEY. THEY CAN'T BECAUSE THEIR POLICY IS THE STATUS QUO. AND EVERY COUNCIL IN THE COUNTRY BAR, POSSIBLY 1 OR 2, HAVE TOLD ME THAT THEY CAN'T DO IT BY THEMSELVES. SO THERE'LL BE JUST AS MUCH BACKLASH ON WHAT THEY ARE PROPOSING AS THERE WAS ON OUR ORIGINAL PROPOSAL. WELL, THERE WAS A LOT OF BACKLASH. BUT PEOPLE ARE COMFORTABLE WITH IT NOW. BUT IT'S BEEN A DOG OF A PROCESS, HASN'T IT? THIS ALL STARTED IN 2016, WE'RE IN 2023 NOW. OH, WELL, LOVE A CHALLENGE. (LAUGHS) CLEARLY. DO YOU LIKE THE IDEA OF 10 ENTITIES, THOUGH? WELL, I DO, BUT IT'S NOT AS EFFICIENT AS FOUR. BUT WE WEREN'T GOING TO GET FOUR ACROSS THE LINE, AND LOOK, I'M PRAGMATIC, YOU KNOW, I JUST` I KNOW WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE, LET'S JUST FIND THE BEST WAY TO DO IT THAT GETS IT ACROSS THE LINE. DO I THINK THERE'LL BE 10 ENTITIES IN 20 YEARS TIME? NO, THERE'LL BE FEWER. BUT WE'VE MADE SURE THAT THAT HAS TO BE A LOCAL CHOICE. THAT'S NOT GOING TO COME FROM GOVERNMENT. OK, JUST FINALLY, WITH ALL OF YOUR JOBS, ARE YOU GONNA KEEP WAIRARAPA? I HOPE SO. I REALLY DO. THE JOB MEANS A LOT TO ME. GOT THE FEELING THAT EVERYONE IN PARLIAMENT JUST WANTED TO GET OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. STILL GOT ANOTHER WEEK OR TWO WEEKS TO GO. THEY'RE ITCHING, I THINK, INCLUDING KIERAN. ABSOLUTELY. A MURI AKE NEI, COMING UP NEXT, OUR POLITICAL PANEL; NICOLA TOKI, ISOBEL EWING AND MATTHEW HOOTON. PLUS, FIERY EXCHANGES, TEARFUL GOODBYES AND A GREEN MP WHO WENT OUT SWINGING ` IT WAS A BIG WEEK IN THE HOUSE. WELL, IT'S BEEN A WEEK OF COMPETING IDEAS AND POLICY AT PARLIAMENT, SO TO DISSECT IT ALL, I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL, FOREST AND BIRD CEO NICOLA TOKI, NEWSHUB'S CLIMATE REPORTER ISOBEL EWING AND PR MAN MATTHEW HOOTON, WHO HAS PREVIOUSLY WORKED FOR BOTH NATIONAL AND ACT. LET'S DIVE IN. I WANT TO START ON CLIMATE. I HEARD FROM SIMON WATTS THAT WE NEED ACTION, BUT THIS IS THE SAME MAN WHO IS PUSHING OUT THOSE AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS BY FIVE OR SEVEN YEARS? IT'S ALL OF THEM, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? I DON'T THINK I HAVE EVER BEEN SO SPECTACULARLY UNINSPIRED IN THE LEAD UP TO AN ELECTION` PARTICULARLY ON CLIMATE ISSUES. YOU HAD THE STUFF AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW` THERE IS GENUINE FEAR FROM NEW ZEALANDERS WHO ARE GENUINELY EXPERIENCING A LOSS. WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE? IS IT GOING TO BE CHRISTOPHER LUXON DRIVING UP THE STEPS OF PARLIAMENT IN HIS TESLA FOR US TO TURN THINGS AROUND? I MEAN, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS EVERY DAY AT 12 O'CLOCK, WE TURN ON THE TELLY, AND THERE'S THE CLIMATE ASHLEY BLOOMFIELD TELLING US HOW IT'S GOING, BECAUSE WE NEED LEADERSHIP AND RESPONSIBILITY. I'M HAPPY TO BE THAT PERSON, BY THE WAY, FOR US TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. WE JUST HAVE NO LEADERSHIP. I DON'T KNOW IF THE POLITICIANS ARE TRYING TO BORE US INTO AN ELECTION, BUT THAT'S WHAT IT FEELS LIKE. MATTHEW, WHAT DID YOU THINK, AS WE HAVE SOME DISAGREEMENT ON THE LEFT, BETWEEN JAMES AND LABOUR AND DISAGREEING WITH THEIR POLICY RELEASED YESTERDAY? PARTICULARLY WITH AGRICULTURE. AS JAMES SAID, HE THINKS HIS OWN GOVERNMENT'S POLICY IN AGRICULTURE IS A BIT OF A SHAMBLES. THEY HAD THE PROCESS WORKING WITH THE INDUSTRY THAT... IN THE END WAS NOT UNSUCCESSFUL. AND AGRICULTURE REMAINS THE ISSUE IN CLIMATE CHANGE THAT NO ONE WANTS TO DEAL WITH, BECAUSE IT IS DIFFICULT AND ECONOMICALLY IMPORTANT. A LOT OF THAT DEBATE, I COULD'VE IMAGINED IT WAS ROD DONALD OR JEANETTE FITZSIMONS TALKING TO SIMON UPTON IN 1996. IT'S BEEN GOING ON A LONG TIME. WE'VE HAD THIS DEBATE ABOUT HOW TO MITIGATE, IT'S BECOME QUITE BORING; THERE'S TWO SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. ONE SIDE SAYS THAT NEW ZEALAND IS TOO SMALL AND IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, AND THE OTHER SAYS WE MUST SHOW MORAL LEADERSHIP AND DO OUR PART. GREAT, TERRIFIC, HAVE THAT DEBATE. BUT AFTER WHAT HAPPENED THIS YEAR, AND IN EUROPE, THIS NORTHERN SUMMER, THIS DEBATE HAS TO BE AT LEAST AS MUCH ABOUT ADAPTATION, AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE VOTERS WANT TO HEAR ABOUT, AS MUCH AS METHANE TARGETS. ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S` I DON'T EVEN THINK IT'S JUST MORAL ANY MORE. ITS AN ECONOMIC ARGUMENT. IT'S ENSHRINED IN THIS TRADE DEAL WE HAVE SIGNED WITH EUROPE. WE WON'T BE ABLE TO TRADE IF WE DON'T MEET THESE TARGETS. I FEEL SORRY FOR WATTS, AS HE IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION, OF HAVING TO SAY A WHOLE LOT ABOUT ACTION, BUT DON'T SAY TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT THE ACTION IS, BECAUSE IT WILL FREAK PEOPLE OUT. BUT JUST SAY THAT THERE ARE TARGETS, AND WE BELIEVE IN THE TARGETS, WE WILL MEET THEM, BUT DON'T SAY HOW; SAY SOME STUFF ABOUT ELECTRIFICATION, BUT THERE IS NOT A PLAN ON HOW TO DO THAT. WHAT A DEPRESSINGLY UNAMBITIOUS STANCE FROM NATIONAL AND LABOUR. BECAUSE THOSE TWO BIG ROADING ANNOUNCEMENTS ` GREAT, KIWIS LOVE ROADS, AND YES, WE NEED ROADS FOR EVs AND BUSES, BUT THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT IF YOU MAKE IT EASIER TO DRIVE, PEOPLE WILL DRIVE MORE. AND NATIONAL'S SAYING WE HAVE GREAT ROADS, AND PEOPLE NEED TO DRIVE ON THEM WITH THEIR EVs, BUT THERE IS NO EXPLANATION OF HOW YOU WILL INCENTIVISE PEOPLE TO PUBLIC TRANSPORT. AND JUST NO LEADERSHIP. YOU'VE GOT THE POOR OLD FARMING COMMUNITY, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HALF OF OUR EMISSIONS. WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS IS GUIDING THEM AND SHOWING ACTION. INSTEAD, WE SAY, 'THAT'S REALLY BAD, AND HALF THE WORLD'S ON FIRE, 'BUT WE WILL JUST DELAY IT FOR ANOTHER SEVERAL YEARS.' IT'S JUST IRRESPONSIBLE. I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THAT IS BECAUSE INSTEAD OF IT BEING SEEN AS A SERIOUS PROBLEM ON EITHER SIDE, IT IS BEING SEEN AS A VIRTUE SIGNALLING EXERCISE, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. YOU HAD TO TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU 'BELIEVE' IN CLIMATE CHANGE, AND YOU HAD TO BELIEVE IN IT SUFFICIENTLY, PASSIONATELY TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. THE MOST IMPORTANT INITIATIVE NEW ZEALAND EVER TOOK WAS AT THE COPENHAGEN CONFERENCE WHEN TIM GROSSER SET UP THE GLOBAL RESEARCH ALLIANCE IN AGRICULTURE. THE ONE THING NEW ZEALAND CAN DO THROUGH OUR EXCELLENT UNIVERSITIES IS WORK ON A GLOBAL SOLUTION TO METHANE. EVERYTHING ELSE IS NONSENSE. THE TRUTH IS, IN THE END, WE'LL ALL HAVE ELECTRIC CARS; ANYTHING ELSE NEW ZEALAND SAYS OR DOES IS IRRELEVANT. BUT ISN'T IT SUCH A BORING, PAROCHIAL STANCE TO SAY 'WE ARE TOO SMALL, WE DON'T HAVE THE AMBITION.' BUT WE'RE NOT, IN THAT AREA. THAT IS THE AREA WHERE WE ARE THE WORLD LEADER. NO, BUT THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ARGUMENT NOW. YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT WE ARE SO SMALL, AND OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT AS A NATION IS SO SMALL, THEN WHY DO WE NEED TO BE THE ONES MAKING CHANGE? BUT WE LOVE TO BE WORLD LEADERS. DON'T WE LOVE TO BE WORLD LEADERS? EXACTLY. WE ARE RACING TO THE BOTTOM. WHERE IS OUR NEXT EVEREST? WHERE'S OUR NUCLEAR-FREE MOMENT? AND WE'RE JUST GONNA SIT IN THE CORNER AND WAIT FOR EVERYONE ELSE TO DO IT. SO REGARDLESS OF THOSE ISSUES, WHAT DOES HAVE TO HAPPEN IN A GLOBAL SENSE IS TO GET IT OUT OF THE U.N SYSTEM. THE U.N HAS NEVER SOLVED A PROBLEM IN ITS LIFE. IT WAS SET UP TO STOP WAR. THE MONTREAL PROTOCOLS STOPPED FLUOROCARBONS WITHIN 18 MONTHS; THE SMALL GROUP OF COUNTRIES THAT ARE RESPONSIBLE ` INDIA, CHINA, THE UNITED STATES, HAVE TO REACH AN AGREEMENT. IF THEY DON'T, THIS TERRIBLE CATASTROPHE WILL HAPPEN. SO THE ISSUE IS ADAPTATION AND BUILDING UP THE MILITARY, QUITE FRANKLY. (ALL CLAMOUR) I LOVE THE CONSENSUS THAT WE'RE GETTING HERE, BETWEEN ALL OF YOU. BUT I WANT TO MOVE ON TO SOME OF THE POLICIES WE HAVE SEEN THIS WEEK. BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF POLICY AND IDEAS COMING OUT OF PARLIAMENT. IT FELT A LITTLE BIT TO ME LIKE LABOUR WAS THROWING SPAGHETTI AT THE WALL AND SEEING WHAT STUCK. WE HAD GST, WE HAD PAID PARENTAL LEAVE AND THEN WE HAD TRANSPORT. NICOLA, DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE TUNING IN YET FULLY TO WHAT'S HAPPENING? NO. I AM A POLITICAL NERD, AND I COULD NOT BE LESS INTERESTED. AND IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE, I THINK, SEARCHING FOR LEADERSHIP, AND I KNOW YOU'RE TRYING TO DRAG US OFF THE CLIMATE THING, BUT BACK TO IT ` PEOPLE ARE AFRAID AND WORRIED ABOUT THE ECONOMY. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE'VE SIGNED AN INTERNATIONALLY BINDING AGREEMENT THAT SAYS WE WILL HAVE TO PAY X-BILLION DOLLARS, THAT WE HAVE TO GET FROM SOMEWHERE IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD... NOR IS ANYONE TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT OUR CASH DEFICIT THIS YEAR IS GONNA BE OVER $20 BILLION. I MEAN, BIGGER THAN` EXCEPT WHEN MULDOON WAS AROUND... INEQUALITY, THE UNDERCLASS THAT JOHN KEY TALKED ABOUT IN 2008; I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK THERE IS A LACK OF LEADERSHIP ON EVERY ISSUE. BIG IDEAS. FRESH IDEAS. THERE IS JUST BLAND BUREAUCRATIC TALK FROM THE TWO BIG PARTIES, AND A DESIRE TO LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IT IS, IF YOU'RE LABOUR, OR TO RETURN TO 2017 IF YOU'RE NATIONAL. A RACE TO THE STATUS QUO. THE PUBLIC DON'T WANT IT; THE COMBINED NATIONAL AND LABOUR VOTE IS THE LOWEST IT'S EVER BEEN UNDER MMP, EXCEPT THE VERY EARLY DAYS, AND OUR POLITICAL CLASS IS LETTING THIS COUNTRY DOWN TERRIBLY BADLY. IT IS FASCINATING TO WATCH THE MINOR PARTIES STEP INTO THIS MOMENT, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE WE ARE SEEING NEW IDEAS AND NOISE, AND THAT URGENCY AROUND IDEAS AND POLICY. YOU TALK ABOUT POLICY, AND THE GREENS AND ACT HAVE BEEN THE ONLY ONES PUTTING THINGS OUT THERE THAT IS MEANINGFUL AND DOING THEIR JOB OF PUTTING SOMETHING FORWARD THAT IS GOING TO HOPEFULLY CHANGE THE LIVES OF NEW ZEALANDERS, WHEREAS THE NATS AND LABOUR ARE OFFERING NOTHING. THE NATS WOULD BE SCREAMING AT THE TV, SAYING THEY PUT OUT 30 POLICIES. LAST YEAR THEY WERE CRITICISED FOR NOT PUTTING OUT POLICIES, THIS YEAR THEY SAY THEY'VE GOT 30` IT DOES LOOK LIKE A SMORGASBORD. A MAJOR PARTY ISSUING A DOCUMENT OF THREE BULLET POINTS THAT THEY WROTE THE NIGHT BEFORE... (LAUGHTER) MAY ENABLE THEM TO SAY THEY'VE ANNOUNCED A POLICY, BUT SERIOUS PEOPLE DON'T REGARD THAT SORT OF THING AS A POLICY. WHEN YOU'RE PUTTING OUT POLICIES LIKE A MINISTER FOR HUNTING AND FISHING... DON'T GET NIC STARTED ON THIS ONE. IT'S PRETTY HARD TO TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY. THE MINISTER OF HIGHER HUNTING AND FISHING IS ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS, I'M NOT GOING TO DEFEND IT AT ALL. NO ONE WOULD DEFEND IT, SAME WITH GST WITH FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. THESE THINGS ARE JUST UTTERLY TRIVIAL. CHRIS HIPKINS COULD NOT POINT TO ONE ECONOMIST WHO SAID IT WOULD WORK. IT'S TERRIFYING TO ME THAT WHEN WE LOOK TO OUR LEADERS FOR WHAT WILL CHANGE THE GAME FOR THIS COUNTRY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MINUTIAE, AND I WON'T GET STARTED ON THE HUNTING AND FISHING POLICY, OTHER THAN TO SAY THAT THIS IS THE ONE OF THE BEST TIMES I'VE ENJOYED A GREAT FRIENDSHIP WITH THE FARMING COMMUNITY COS THEY HATE IT. IT'S JUST PEOPLE WRITING NONSENSE. POLLED WELL. I AM GOING TO LEAVE IT ON THAT NOTE, BECAUSE WE HAVE ZOOMED THROUGH ALL OF THE TIME WE HAVE ALLOCATED FOR THE PANEL... (LAUGHTER) BUT I HAVE ENJOYED IT IMMENSELY. I'M SURE OUR AUDIENCE HAS TOO. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, MATTHEW HOOTON, ISOBEL EWING, AND NICOLA TOKI. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. E HAERE AKE NEI ` STAY WITH US FOR SOME PRE-ELECTION HEAT RISING DOWN IN PARLIAMENT. PLUS, THE MP WHO BECAME A FIRST-TIME FATHER AND PARLIAMENTARIAN WITHIN 48 HOURS. WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, WHERE WE GET TO SEE OUR MPs IN A MORE PERSONAL LIGHT. TODAY, THE MP WHO USED TO BE A SUBMARINER, ADMIRING MOONBOWS OVER THE OCEAN AT NIGHT. APPARENTLY, THEY ARE A THING. WE TRAVELLED TO WEST AUCKLAND'S GLEN EDEN WITH CHRIS PENK TO HEAR HIS BACKSTORY. I GREW UP IN WEST AUCKLAND. ONE OF FIVE BOYS. WENT TO THE LOCAL SCHOOLS. HAD A GREAT CHILDHOOD, ACTUALLY, DOING ALL THE NORMAL THINGS THAT A YOUNG KID DID IN THE EARLY '80s. IT WAS AN INTERESTING TIME, SORT OF REVOLUTIONARY AND THAT. BUT FROM A POINT OF VIEW OF KID GOING TO LOCAL SCHOOL, JUST WANTING TO PLAY CRICKET AND SOCCER AND HOCKEY... YEAH, GOOD TIME. FUNNILY ENOUGH, VISITING THE SCHOOL AGAIN IN LATER YEARS ` BECAUSE OUR SON, WHO'S NEARLY SIX, NOW, GOES TO THE SAME ONE ` IT'S AMAZING HOW MUCH IT'S SHRUNK. VERY NOSTALGIC FOR THAT TIME. MUM, DEBBIE. WAS A TEACHER BY OCCUPATION, BUT ALSO SPENT A LOT OF TIME, OBVIOUSLY, RAISING FIVE BOYS, WHICH IS KIND OF TEACHING IN ITSELF. A LOT OF TEACHABLE MOMENTS IN THERE. AND DAD WORKED AT THE LAW SCHOOL ORIGINALLY AS AN ADMINISTRATOR AND THEN LATER ACTUALLY STUDIED, HIMSELF, LAW, AND ENDED UP TEACHING THERE. IN FACT, STUDIED THERE AT THE SAME TIME AS I DID AT ONE POINT. WELL, I GUESS I WAS THE SPORTS KID. YOU KNOW, MY DREAM WAS TO PLAY CRICKET FOR NEW ZEALAND. AND THEN I REALISED AT SOME POINT THAT I DIDN'T QUITE HAVE THOSE SKILLS TO TAKE ME TO THAT LEVEL. I JOINED THE NAVY. JOINED THE NEW ZEALAND NAVY AND THEN THE AUSTRALIAN NAVY. I GUESS WANTING THE ADVENTURE, TO SEE THE WORLD AND ALL THOSE CORNY THINGS THAT AT THE AGE OF 20 SEEMED LIKE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA. FOR ME, IT WAS PRETTY EXCITING TO SET FOOT ON A BIG, BIG GREY SHIP; IN MY CASE, HMNZS TE KAHA, AND TO BE ALLOWED TO DRIVE THAT AS AN OFFICER OF THE WATCH. YOU KNOW, THE CAPTAIN'S OBVIOUSLY IN CHARGE OVERALL, BUT YOU'RE UP ON THE BRIDGE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, AND AT THE AGE OF 21, DRIVING THE SHIP THROUGH THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, THINKING, 'HOW HAS THIS HAPPENED? HOW CAN THIS BE POSSIBLE?' AND JUST SEEING THINGS AT SEA THAT YOU NEVER SEE ON LAND, WHETHER IT'S THE SUNSETS, OR IN ONE CASE, A MOONBOW, WHICH IS LIKE A RAINBOW, BUT IT'S THE MOON, IT'S A SHINY MOON. AND ALSO I REMEMBER DOLPHINS PLAYING AROUND THE BOW OF THE SUBMARINE. WE'RE ON THE SURFACE, OBVIOUSLY, AND JUST SEEING THAT, AND THEY WERE JUMPING THROUGH THE LUMINESCENCE, THE BIOLUMINESCENCE OR PHOSPHORESCENCE, SOMETIMES CALLED, OF THE WATER. AND I WAS JUST THINKING, 'THIS IS JUST PRETTY MAGICAL.' RIGHT. THAT'S MY MOTHER, DEBORAH PENK. DEBBIE. MUM, OF COURSE. SO, YEAH, SHE, ALONG WITH DAD, BROUGHT UP FIVE BOYS OF WHOM I WAS ONE IN WEST AUCKLAND. YEAH. A GOOD TIME. VERY GRATEFUL TO THIS LADY. I THINK HE WAS ALWAYS` IF I USE THE WORD AMBITIOUS, JUST WANTING TO DO HIS BEST AND MAKE THINGS WORK AND THAT SORT OF THING. EXCEPT I DO REMEMBER ONE RATHER HILARIOUS THING AT A PARENT-TEACHER INTERVIEW ONCE. DO YOU REMEMBER HEARING ABOUT THIS? (LAUGHS) YEAH, I KNEW THIS WAS GONNA COME UP. CUT, CUT. ONE DAY HE WAS OBVIOUSLY FEELING OUT OF SORTS, BECAUSE HE SAID TO HIS TEACHER WHO'D ASKED HIM TO DO SOMETHING, AND THIS WAS BACK IN THE DAY WHEN YOU DIDN'T SPEAK BACK TO TEACHERS. HE JUST SAID` HE JUST TOLD HER TO DO IT HERSELF. SO` (LAUGHS) BUT SHE THOUGHT` SHE BROUGHT IT UP AT PARENT-TEACHER. SHE JUST THOUGHT IT WAS ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS. (LAUGHS) SO... FOR CONTEXT, THERE WAS STILL CORPORAL PUNISHMENT BACK IN THOSE DAYS, BUT ALSO FOR CONTEXT, I THINK I WAS FIVE. SO... (LAUGHS) YOU WERE FIVE. IT WAS YOUR YEAR ONE TEACHER. YEAH. HAROLD ALEXANDER PENK SERVED IN THE NEW ZEALAND EXPEDITIONARY FORCE, SO THE ARMY, AS A MEDIC, WORLD WAR TWO. LIKE MANY OF THAT GENERATION, AND PARTICULARLY THOSE WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF SERVING IN THOSE THEATRES OF WAR AND AS A MEDIC, SEEING A LOT OF QUITE HORRIFIC STUFF. DIDN'T LIKE TALKING ABOUT IT AT ALL. I DON'T THINK I EVER HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT IT, WHICH IS REALLY SAD TO ME. REALLY PROUD OF HIM AND THE THINGS THAT HE DID, EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT THAT MUCH AS A YOUNG GUY GROWING UP. AND IT'S JUST THE THING THAT ALL THE GRANDFATHERS DID, AND ACTUALLY GRANDMOTHERS TOO, I SHOULD ADD, INCLUDING HIS WIFE, MY NAN. JOAN PENK, MY GRANDMOTHER ON MY FATHER'S SIDE, JOINED UP THE NEW ZEALAND WOMEN'S AUXILIARY AIR FORCE, THE WAFS, AS THEY WERE KNOWN. MALE-DOMINATED WORLD OF THE MILITARY, OF ALL THINGS. SO QUITE AN AMAZING THING THAT IT TOOK A WORLD WAR FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, BUT OBVIOUSLY OPENED A LOT OF DOORS IN DIFFERENT WAYS THAN THE GENERATIONS THAT FOLLOWED. 'ALWAYS, AT ALL TIMES, FIGHT ON.' I MET MY WIFE, KIM, AT LAW SCHOOL. WE WERE BOTH STUDYING LAW. IN MY CASE, I'D STUDIED PREVIOUSLY, RAN AWAY TO SEA, JOINED THE NAVY, COME BACK. SO WE CROSSED PATHS A LITTLE BIT OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT, OR UNIVERSITY AND ACADEMIC ENVIRONMENT AS WELL. SO THAT CEMENTED THINGS A LITTLE BIT. AND YEAH, THE REST, AS THEY SAY, IS HISTORY. THEN WE WERE ENGAGED FOR A LITTLE WHILE, AND EVENTUALLY GOT MARRIED IN, GOSH, EARLY 2012, I GUESS, SO MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO. WHICH IS KIND OF CRAZY. CRAZY IN A GOOD WAY. (LAUGHS) NOT EASY FOR THE FAMILY OF A POLITICIAN, IN MY CASE, YOU KNOW, WIFE KIM, AND WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF YOUNG KIDS. SO GOING TO PARLIAMENT, 30 WEEKS OR SO OVER THE YEARS, YOU KNOW, TOUGH ON THEM. LET'S BE HONEST. THE THING WE'VE DISCOVERED RECENTLY IS BIKE RIDING. WE'RE NOT GOING TO THE NEXT COMMONWEALTH GAMES. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE CHUCK THE KIDS ON BIKES AND GET OUT THERE AND EXPLORE A BIT OF AUCKLAND. SO WE'VE GOT A DAUGHTER WHO'S NEARLY TWO AND SON WHO'S NEARLY SIX. THEY'VE ALMOST GOT THE SAME BIRTHDAY, SO THEY'RE JUST ONE DAY APART, BUT FOUR YEARS. SO, JUST THE WAY IT WORKED OUT, OBVIOUSLY. AND THE BOY BORN TWO DAYS BEFORE THE 2017 ELECTION. SO PRETTY CRAZY TIME IN OUR HOUSEHOLD, BECAUSE 48 HOURS INTO HAVING A NEWBORN, AND YOU'VE NEVER HAD ONE OF THESE THINGS BEFORE, YOU'RE SORT OF TRYING TO WORK IT ALL OUT. IT WAS ALMOST EASY TO FORGET THAT IT WAS ELECTION DAY. IT'S KIND OF FUNNY, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF IN A WAY, IT'S NATURAL TO THEM, IT'S NORMAL TO THEM THAT DADDY'S FACE IS ON THE CAR, LAUGHS: WHICH IS, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, PRETTY CRAZY, REALLY. I THINK EVERY MP COMES IN WITH A BACKGROUND AND A SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES TO SHAPE THEM. SOMETIMES IT WILL BE AN ETHICAL OR A MORAL OR A RELIGIOUS FAITH. FOR ME, I HAD THAT BACKGROUND GROWING UP, AND I DO REFLECT ON WHETHER I'M LIVING UP TO VALUES OF LOOKING OUT FOR OTHERS AND DOING UNTO OTHERS AS I'D HAVE THEM DO UNTO ME. AND TO KNOW THAT I FALL SHORT, YOU KNOW, OFTEN, BASICALLY EVERY TWEET, SO, FOR EXAMPLE. BUT AT LEAST I KNOW IT. (LAUGHS) I CAN VOW TO DO BETTER NEXT TIME. IT'S A MINEFIELD, TWITTER, AT THE BEST OF TIMES. YES. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATOU. STAY WITH US, WE'RE RIGHT BACK AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK. THERE WERE FIERY EXCHANGES THIS WEEK, TENSION, TEARFUL GOODBYES AND A GREEN MP WHO WENT OUT SWINGING IN HER VALEDICTORY. HERE IS FINN HOGAN. ONLY A FEW SITTING WEEKS TO GO AND LABOUR IS FEELING THE HEAT. THESE QUESTIONS ARE GETTING STUPIDER AND STUPIDER. THE MEMBER CAN'T GET IT THROUGH HIS THICK HEAD` (ALL EXCLAIM) THAT THE MINISTER... WAS MAKING THOSE COMMENTS IN A PREVIOUS LIFE. YES, WILLIE JACKSON CUTTING LOOSE IN THE CHAMBER, AND THE SPEAKER WAS LESS THAN IMPRESSED. THAT LAST COMMENT WAS NOT... HELPFUL. I THINK I'LL GET YOU TO WITHDRAW AND APOLOGISE. WITHDRAW AND APOLOGISE, MR SPEAKER. BUT WHILE MOST MPs ARE GETTING BATTLE-READY FOR ELECTION 2023, MANY THIS WEEK WERE DELIVERING THEIR FAREWELL ADDRESS. I CALL ON DR ELIZABETH KEREKERE TO MAKE HER VALEDICTORY STATEMENT. NO FORMAL COMPLAINTS, NO NATURAL JUSTICE, AND NEVER A PROCESS, LET ALONE A TIKANGA-BASED ONE. I CONSIDER THIS TO BE AN EPIC FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP. MEANWHILE, ON LABOUR'S SIDE OF THE AISLE, STUART NASH AND DAVID CLARK WERE LEAVING WITH A LAUGH. THE BEST HEADLINE OF MY CAREER ` (LAUGHTER) 'I CAN'T BELIEVE STUART NASH WAS RIGHT.' (LAUGHTER) COULD BE REFERRING TO ANYTHING, I SUPPOSE. YES, GIRLS, WE WILL HAVE MORE TIME FOR BIKE RIDING SOON. (LAUGHTER) AND ALSO SOME POIGNANT REFLECTIONS. IT CAN BE BRUTAL, AND SOMETIMES MORE SO FOR OUR FAMILIES THAN FOR US. AND, SARAH, YOU'VE HAD MY BACK... TEARFULLY: IN A WAY THAT'S ALLOWED ME... I LOVE YA. (LAUGHTER) TEARFULLY: IF IT SEEMS I'VE TAKEN THIS FOR GRANTED, BELIEVE ME, I NEVER HAVE. WELL, ONE THING'S FOR CERTAIN ` THESE WON'T BE THE ONLY MPs LEAVING THE CHAMBER FOR GOOD, COME OCTOBER 13th. WHO'LL STAY? WHO'LL GO? WELL, WE'LL FIND OUT SOON. BEFORE WE LEAVE YOU, WE'D LIKE TO UPDATE YOU QUICKLY ON A STORY WE FIRST STARTED COVERING FIVE YEARS AGO. YOU MIGHT REMEMBER ALAN HALL. REPORTER MIKE WESLEY-SMITH INVESTIGATED HIS CONVICTION FOR A 2018 NEWSHUB NATION PODCAST, CALLED 'MURDER ON GROVE ROAD'. THE EVIDENCE MIKE UNCOVERED FORMED THE FOUNDATION FOR THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION LAST YEAR TO QUASH ALAN HALL'S WRONGFUL CONVICTION. AND FINALLY YESTERDAY JUSTICE WAS SERVED, WITH A RECORD $4.9m IN COMPENSATION AWARDED TO ALAN FOR HIS 19 YEARS IN PRISON. HERE'S WHAT ALAN'S FAMILY, AND MIKE, HAD TO SAY. IT WAS THE PINNACLE, REALLY, OF THIS WHOLE... THIS WHOLE PROCESS WE'VE BEEN THROUGH FOR 37 YEARS. AND THEN THIS IS WHAT MUM WAS AFTER, THIS IS WHAT SHE WANTED. THIS IS WHAT THE FIGHT WAS ABOUT. YOU KNOW, IT'S BASICALLY ALAN, YOU'RE AN INNOCENT MAN. IT WAS IMPORTANT TO MEET THEM IN PERSON. SO NOT JUST A LETTER, BUT THAT PERSONAL APOLOGY FROM THE GOVERNMENT. ALAN WILL NOW BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, TURN HIS MIND TO FOCUSING ON WHAT HAS BEEN DENIED HIM, WHICH IS THE ABILITY TO BUILD A LIFE AS A FREE MAN. AND WE ARE HERE TODAY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED THROUGH NEWSHUB NATION AND MIKE WESLEY-SMITH. KOINA NGA KORERO MO TENEI WA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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