- Piki mai, kake mai. Homai te waiora ki te Hui. E tu nei, e tau nei, e whakakitea ake nei i nga kaupapa nui o te wa. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. This week on The Hui... From polling to puha ` we discuss the latest in te ao torangapu... - That member is deliberately and wantonly playing the race card in this election, and he should be ashamed of himself. - ...and delve deeper into party policies with our panel of experts. Plus, she's been the face of Maori fashion for the past 13 years. Now Kiri Nathan is the face of New Zealand Fashion Week as its opening act. - When you do a runway show, and especially one that holds the responsibility of being the first Maori, you need to make some pretty meaningful pieces. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023 - Nga mate o te wa, haramai, haere. Huri tu mai ki a tatou kei te ao o te ora. Tihewa mauri ora, and welcome back to the Hui. There are just 46 days to go to Election Day, and things are heating up. With plenty of polls, a plethora of policy, and plenty of people aspiring to enter parliament, there is a lot to discuss. So joining us on our expert panel today are justice advocate Emmy Rakete, Associate Dean Maori at Massey University Professor Matt Roskruge, and journalist and comms practitioner Mani Dunlop. Tena koutou katoa. Nau mai hoki mai. Great to have you with us today. OK, let's start with polls. Is it all done bar the shouting here, Emmy? It looks like we're gonna have a National and Act government after the election. - Yeah, that'll be` that'll be fun, I think, for all Maori people. We'll have a good time if that happens (!) - (CHUCKLES) Oh my gosh. Yeah. Is it all` Is it all done bar the shouting, do you think? I mean, is it heading that way, and is it too late for Labour to do anything? - I think Chris Hipkins gave a really good speech the other day, which maybe indicates that they're going to try to do something, that they're not ready, kind of, to just push themselves off the dock and sink, but who knows, right? - Yeah. Are we talking here about Johnny Mathis and Deniece Williams? Is it 'too much, too little, too late' here, Matt, do you think? - No, I mean, it's not over till the Election Day, right? So there's always time for things to happen, for new scandals to come out, new people to put their hand up. And I think you're starting to see Labour be a little bit more aggressive in some of its, um... some of its rhetoric, some of its discussion points. So, I mean, maybe that'll land. I don't think Labour do well when they go on the attack compared to the other parties. But, yeah, I mean they're trying. What's there to lose? I mean you're right in that the momentum feels like it's going one way, so, yeah, I think they've got every opportunity to throw things at the wall and see what sticks. - Let's talk about some of the minor parties here. So, Winston Peters ` 3.7%, Mani. Is he gonna make it on election? - Yeah, well, we've seen in the Labour internal polling that he could be yet again the kingmaker. We could be seeing Uncle Winitana back in Parliament. But if we` if it does go with the trend of what we are seeing in the polls around National and Act winning and making a government, then that will likely mean that New Zealand First` or they'll have to get New Zealand First to negotiate any legislation they need to get across the table, which will make it a really tough, tough term for that government. But we also have to remember that so many of New Zealanders don't really engage with politics until, say, two, three weeks out from the election. And we know that Luxon is not a great performer in those debates. Nicola Willis, you know, is more likely to really show, I guess, the power and her leadership with the National Party. But Chris Hipkins ` he's, you know, he's pretty exceptional in those debates, and I think that will really show closer to the election. - Mani makes a really good point here, Emmy, about the amount of people who are still undecided here. So we still have a big undecided vote going up into this election, and people who look like they might not vote at all. - Yeah, yeah. I think there's a tendency amongst people who are really interested in politics to assume that most people slop from one bucket into another. You go from Act to National, for instance, but maybe we'll just slop out and recognise that politics actually hasn't improved their lives, participation in the system hasn't done much for them, and you know, 'Nah' is actually a really large voting bloc that people should be thinking about and appealing to. - And you think that'll be a bigger population of people at this election? - I think that for Maori, we should consider that many of our friends and relatives aren't interested in politics and don't see this is an important part of their lives, and this is a group who maybe we should be interested in trying to appeal to. - Yeah. Should we be concerned by the rise in support for, say, Winston Peters, given his, kind of, culture war approach that he has taken to this election? Even Act and its growth in popular support? - Yeah, so New Zealand First and Act have both kind of taken this really hard right-wing culture war, I think as an opportunity to try to distinguish themselves from National who are trying much more to, kind of, appeal in the vein of John Key. It is troubling. Most of the positions that Act and New Zealand First are trying to pin themselves to, and I'm thinking especially transphobia here, actually in his raw numbers are unpopular positions. So I'm not sure how successful this strategy is going to be. - OK. All right, Matt, let's talk a little bit more about some approaches from people like Act. I mean, he always complains about race, and yet he's the one that talks about race a lot. It doesn't seem to affect his polling, though. - No, I mean, that's the point. I think that at the moment, I mean, especially we're still kind of recovering from Covid, some small business owners are still remembering the pain they went through there. There's a lot of alt media around at the moment. There's a lot of angry people. I don't know if they know what they're angry about necessarily, but at the moment, an opposition party, no matter which opposition party which it is, it's able to tap into that anger, those motivated voters. And I think we're seeing Act, New Zealand First trying to compete over who can get the biggest pool of people who are feeling really disgruntled by what has happened in their lives over the last few years. - Is David Seymour just good at getting a headline, and that transfers into support? I mean, you know, the Nelson Mandela thing. Hello? You know, Pacific peoples ` Ministry of Pacific Peoples and Guy Fawkes. - I think what this also shows is that, you know, we're looking at a very MMP government, and although` The minor parties which Act is technically... 15% in polls ` that's not really minor any more ` so we're gonna see the diversification of what MMP intends to do in order for people to really see themselves in those policies. For Act particularly, Luxon is not that popular as a leader. David Seymour is popular as a leader. The proliferation of Act ` you drive anywhere in rural New Zealand, you see a huge amount of Act billboards, more so than any other party at the moment. And that just shows how popular or how much money they have behind him, and also getting a Fed Farmers former president is also a good get for them as well. - Yeah. There's still space, though, for good policies, for parties to have good policy. I mean look at the Green Party, right? So, you know, wealth tax ` they know it's popular. Over 50% of New Zealanders support a wealth tax. They come out with a dental policy that appeals not only to their base but appeals to most New Zealanders as well. And their polling is holding, right? - Mm. Mm. - The criticisms often made of the Maori Party, for instance, is that they're not serious, right? That they say things to make people mad. In a sense, that's true, right? But the point of politics is to energise your base and attack your enemy, and that's exactly what the Maori Party, I think, does quite successfully. Policy should appeal to your base. We're not here to be technocrats or to be the best managers of society. We're here to win a fight, and Labour, it seems, is really unwilling to enter into that fight. The Greens aren't. - Do you think the Maori Party will be concerned, though, at 2.7, they kind of need about 3-ish or close enough to 3-ish to be able to get someone like Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke into parliament as number four on the list. So do you think they're gonna be concerned about the fact they haven't hit 3, and there's a little bit of a slide from previous polls? - I think that, again, kind of in the same way that Act are trying to differentiate themselves from National by taking more extreme positions, the Maori Party is gonna have to think about doing so as well if it wants to peel off support from Greens and Labour. - Yeah. Are the Maori Party seen, Matt, as one of those parties that is willing to take the fight, particularly on race, on the divisive politics of Act and New Zealand First to them? I mean, I know the Prime Minister came out and said a couple of things yesterday, but it feels like that came late. The Maori Party's been pretty consistent on this and the Greens. - Yeah, but then` I mean, the Maori Party is obviously` I mean, they're not resonating with Maori in the way that we'd like to see, right? 16% of the population; 3% of the vote. There's something not quite working there, and I've always` I don't know what that is. I've always wondered whether they need to find a way of motivating and appealing more to rural Maori who are traditionally not involved in a lot of politics. And urban Maori are pretty much occupied with Labour and the Greens at the moment, but there's something not quite working for them there. - Yeah, the Prime Minister came out yesterday and said that he would rule out working with New Zealand First, which is interesting considering Chris Luxon hasn't ruled it out, and said New Zealand First has, quote, 'become a party more interested in toilets than the issues that really matter.' And went on to say Winston Peters and New Zealand First are a force for instability and chaos and the last thing the country needs right now. Is it a smart move to say no to New Zealand First given he might need it? - I think` Well, we're in the last sitting week of the year, right, before the election, and I think this is a really good opportunity ` and we've got two campaign launches as well ` a good opportunity for Chris Hipkins to really show what they are going to be about going into this campaign and going and quite hot. I think with the Maori Party, I think that's not a fair assessment of potentially of where they could go. Like you say, Jules, they have been consistent in being Treaty-centric and ensuring and shutting down that racist and xenophobic rhetoric, and they will push through. And I think with voter apathy for our people, for Maori, we're not necessarily going to see the numbers quite yet with our polling, but the Maori Party know how to run a good campaign, and I think in Waiariki, Te Tai Hauauru, we're going to see those two seats safely won. - All right. We will` Ooh, that's very cool. We're gonna talk more about Maori electorates after this and further policy with our panel of experts. Stay with us. We have Emmy Rakete, Professor Matt Roskruge and Mani Dunlop in studio after the break. - Kia ora mai ano. Ko te Hui tenei e whakatewhatewha ana i nga korero nui torangapu o te wa. We're back, we're bad with our political panel. We have Emmy Rakete, Ahorangi Matt Roskruge, and Mani Dunlop with us. Kia ora mai ano. Emmy, has there been any policy that has really stuck with you as a potential circuit breaker for this election campaign? - It's been a surprisingly bloodless affair so far. I think that so far, none of the parties have really kind of thrown anything on the table that has captured people's interest and excitement. That's why, for instance, New Zealand First has had to just start trying to attack minority groups as a way to get interest. But I think, yeah, the tax stuff is quite interesting. So I'm a teacher, and my partner is social worker. We're fairly kind of middle of the road as far as New Zealanders go, but the Greens are offering us a significantly larger tax cut than National is, which I think just shows kind of how small a segment of the capitalist class National is even trying to appeal to with their policy platform. - How much of a concern, though, is that for you that we don't have a really robust set of policies from each` They've got very different interests, and yet we don't seem to have that kind of circuit breaker policy approach from them. - Labour know that they're, like, right up against the wall here, and their big pitch to New Zealanders was 15% off some groceries, 20 bucks a month per family, which is maybe $4 a person. (STAMMERS) Simply the vision hasn't been there so far. Hipkins is really good when you put him in front of a camera and get him to argue with somebody, because he gets a little bit mad, and I think people resonate with that. But in terms of what they're actually promising people, it's been these minor necrotic adjustments to a system which we all think is rotten. - Emmy makes a good point about tax policy. I mean, every party has a certain tax approach. Labour ` GST, as Emmy's mentioning there. GFT` GST, sorry, off fruit and veg but ruled out a CGT and a wealth tax, right? The Greens ` wealth tax; National and Act tax cuts. The Maori Party again with its tax approach and with a wealth tax as well, supporting wealth tax. Can we afford any of this, or all of this, or none of it? - I mean, not really. It depends what you're after, right? I mean, we can afford all sorts of things, but we'd have to make sacrifices to get them. And I think at the moment, when you look at things like infrastructure, health, education, we're probably in a pretty low tax environment, and we probably need to think seriously about whether we need to be paying more tax and putting that money into those social institutions if we want them to be big and healthy. - Well, if that's the case, isn't a wealth tax a slam dunk? And why the Greens and the Maori Party the only ones who are doing it and not Labour? You would've thought that would've played into Labour's strengths. - I have no idea what Labour's up to. Nobody seems to know what's going on there. - What's that about? - That's just bizarre. - I think that, you know, that GST policy is such a populist policy, and we saw David Parker, the Revenue Minister at the time, step down, and that kind of went under the radar around making quite a public statement that they are fuming around what they had initially proposed as a wealth tax was very good, and it was much` the working group that was created by Jacinda Ardern in 2017, chaired by Sir Michael Cullen. You know, that was` He advised against a GST, you know, getting rid of GST on fruit and veg. And so for Labour supporters especially, they could be looking at that and saying what do we have to really passionately campaign on going into the election? Is it this? And then you think about it's also not gonna even come in place until April next year because they can't simply afford it until then, as well as the increase of Working for Families. So when you step back and look at that, it's quite weak that we've had a government that's had the mandate to make transformational change, and we have not seen that. - That is the point that I wanna pick up on. We had a Labour government with three years to do something big and bold, and it never came. - Yeah. Well there's a live wire in the room, right? And if we step on it, it's gonna burn the whole house down, which is that a tiny minority of people in this country control the vast majority of the wealth and have a disproportionate influence over all of our social institutions. And if we point out, hey, these guys are basically vampires and parasites whose wealth is built off of the stolen value from all of our labour, then we have class politics all of a sudden. And the second Labour acknowledges that there's this live wire in the room, there's a responsibility to do something about it. Do you think that Chris Hipkins is gonna be in a position of expropriating the ruling class and building the kinds of robust, lasting social institutions that we need to live dignified lives as a people? I just don't see them being willing to take that big step. And if they're not willing to take that big step, they cannot allow themselves to take any small steps. - It just seemed they were building up to this. You know, Robertson was behind it. Obviously, Parker was behind it. It seemed that the narrative was going that way. And then the Prime Minister made a captain's call against this wealth tax thing. - I mean, there seems to be a lot more ` especially since Jacinda Ardern ` a lot more of a focus on what their working groups and their focus groups are telling them. There's a lot of PR and spin involved. I can only think something came up in there that really spooked them, because it was a great platform to go into a third government on to show that they did something, and they just haven't. - OK, let's get into Maori electorate races. I think there's gonna be two or three. You've already made a call` (LAUGHS) on a couple` - Is it a bit bold? Too bold? (LAUGHS) - No, bold is good. So what were they again? - Waiariki. - Yep. - Yep, and obviously, that's Rawiri's to lose. Te Tai Hauauru is interesting because, you know, you've got Soraya Peke-Mason with Adrian stepping down, but there's` internally, within the Ratana church, you know, there's a lot of things happening at the pa around that, and whether or not that will impact the outcome is yet to be seen. But Debbie Ngarewa-Packer has been on the ground working really hard the past three years. So I would be` I would be surprised if she didn't take it. - Wow. OK. Any others, Emmy? - No, I don't follow this. - Well, look, Ikaroa-Rawhiti is an interesting race. - Ikaroa-Rawhiti is going to be really interesting. Obviously, we saw Meka Whaitiri step down and give up her ministerial roles to step in, step over and jump to the Maori Party, but her main competitor from Labour is Cushla Tangaere-Manuel, who is very, very, very well-known on the coast. Is she well-known in other parts of the electorate, which is soon to seen? Does Kahungunu back Meka, or do they back Cushla? Can she campaign in a way in which she could potentially take that? So that one's gonna be the most interesting to watch, I think, in the Maori electorates. - OK. The other interesting thing for me is there are some interesting races, whether or not they'll flip. For example, Tamaki Makaurau. I mean, Tash Kemp is a solid campaigner in Tamaki Makaurau, but whether or not she can win that seat up against Peeni Henare as a minister... - Yeah, it's Peeni's to lose. I think that Tash Kemp is, you know, very well known in her community. Whether or not that is also applicable to the rest of Tamaki Makaurau and the electorate... Could be a wild card. She does have a very good profile, but I think Peeni Henare has got a pretty, pretty strong competition now. - OK. All right. Let's talk about some other things just before we get to the end of this, and we're closely getting there now. Matt, do you wanna make a call on Winston and 5%? Is he gonna get back? - Oh, you'd have to think no. I mean, who knows? - You have to think or you want to think no? (CHUCKLES) - Oh, it's` I mean, it would be a huge achievement for him if he did. I just don't see the pathway at the moment unless something goes really badly for maybe Act, if they have` and you end up shedding a whole lot of Act voters and they split between National and New Zealand First. - Why hasn't Luxon ruled this guy out? I mean, it seems to make sense that everyone else has. Why doesn't he? - He might wanna keep Act a little bit honest, and maybe by having a` especially if he can have an alternative to Act that would give him far more bargaining power if the right bloc does go through. - The other concern that many people have raised here is the issue of youth justice and the very harsh approach that Act takes to this, that National seems to take to this. And the most people who will be impacted by this is rangatahi Maori. - Yeah, of course. And I don't think we should forget that Labour has also promised extremely punitive responses in terms of youth justice policy. Their plan now is to build two new child prisons which they have been allowed to get away with saying when frankly, it's an abhorrent policy. Across the board from most of the, kind of, centrist parties, what we're seeing is this demand to put more children in prison and punish more children more harshly and make more children's lives worse, which we've done in this country actually for decades. And we still have a commission of inquiry going on into how horrifically they were abused in this situation. So, yes, from all of them, actually, we're seeing horrific policy that promises to generationally harm Maori communities. - I think a key point there is that we're yet again seeing a race-based, you know, election. And we're seeing Maori become the political football. - More so now than previously, do you think? - I think` Yeah. I do. I do think so. - It feels that way. - I think we've seen` Very cognisant of Don Brash's 2005 Iwi vs Kiwi. We're seeing much of the same language, but when it comes to our young rangatahi, our most vulnerable, they are becoming the collateral damage. They're becoming the football. - Got to go. I'm happy that we didn't have time to talk about Shane Jones' TikTok video. Thank you very much. Emma` Emmy Rakete, sorry. Professor Matt Roskruge, Mani Dunlop, tena koutou katoa. Nga mihi nui ki a koutou. Stay with us ` after the break, coming up next, the fashion designer trailblazing the decolonisation of kakahu. - Ko hoki mai ra koutou ki ta tatou Hui e whakakorikori ana i te hinengaro tangata. For the first time in Fashion Week's 20-year history, it's tangata whenua leading out on the runway. Kiri Nathan is already sought after for her designs, which weave the traditional with the contemporary. Now she's sharing the whakapapa of Maori threads on the country's biggest fashion platform. Mea nei te purongo a Meriana Johnsen. - REPORTER: From pounamu to puffer jackets, feathers to sparkles, Maori fashion weaves both contemporary and traditional, and Kiri Nathan is setting the trend. - Looking into the future, how do we reclaim this thing that has been lost? - Her Glen Innes workroom a hive of activity. - So this is the first time that we've ever shot at Te Ahuru Mowai. - Six new collections, 100-plus looks. - It will be a long day and a fast day, a quick turnaround. You're all welcome. This is all of our whare. - But this isn't her first catwalk. 13 years ago, she launched her debut collection, and in 2018, she had her first solo outing at Fashion Week. Now with her new collection, Matariki... - I've stepped right outside of my comfort zone because there's so much sparkle. - Each dress represents the nine whetu of the star cluster. This whakaaro Maori is threaded through all her designs. Now she's on to a new collection for her biggest challenge yet, bringing te ao Maori to the forefront of New Zealand Fashion Week. - For us, this particular runway is an iteration of the way that fashion formed for Maori. I just kind of feel when you do a runway show and especially one that holds the responsibility of being the first Maori to open that you need to make some pretty (LAUGHS) you know, handcrafted, bespoked and meaningful pieces. - 30 pieces stitching together past, present and future. - All of our clothes were hand-woven, and that's what we wore. - When Pakeha arrived in Aotearoa, Maori quickly adopted new clothing styles. - We started to blend. We started to have westernised kakahu as a base, and then we would wear korowai and other pieces over the top. And at some point around the 1900s, all of our kakahu Maori were reserved for the marae and special occasion, and we've never come back from that. We talk about all of our other layers of reclamation within te ao Maori, and this is one that hasn't really been broached yet. - Her Fashion Week showcase ignites that conversation. - Some people will be comfortable literally wearing something that could've been woven traditionally from muka harakeke, and some people won't. Some people will feel comfortable wearing contemporary pieces ` smaller pieces, shrugs. It's different for everyone. It's personal. - She's trailblazing the decolonisation of kakahu. - 13 years ago, there was nothing that existed, so there was no reference points for anyone to, sort of, understand what we were trying to do. - Now she's model of success in sharing her matauranga with future fashionistas. - I think it's kind of scary to put your culture out there. Yeah, Kiri has reassured me that it's something that we're all able to use. - The third-year student of sustainable fashion at Whitecliffe finds inspiration in her Maoritanga. - My collection this year I'm working on sort of encompasses, like, te taiao ` nature ` and also, it's a tribute to my auntie. - And she's all about mindful making. So I worked in retail for the year before I started here, and it was a fast fashion brand, and I started to understand that fast fashion was such a bad thing for the environment. I saw just tons and tons of clothes coming through the doors, like, every day of the week. - Sustainability is a core ethos of many Maori fashion brands. Campbell Luke's 'Auntie in the marae kitchen'-style garments are made of all-natural fibres, and Tuhirangi Blair with his brand, Lucky Dip, shows you can even make shower curtains and bed sheets look good. - We have emerging pakihi coming out within this industry, and I feel pretty excited about` Actually, I just feel proud. (LAUGHS) I think they're all awesome. - Yet Maori designers are still few and far between. - Considering I'm the only student in my year who is Maori, there's not really enough of us. - Well, I just see it as a responsibility to do something. It's just not one of those industries or places of study where there are many Maori. I feel if you can't see yourself in a place, it doesn't always feel welcoming or like it's for you. And so that's what we're trying to shift. - Her internship programme gives up-and-comers a taste of high fashion. - Oh, nah, nah, nah, nah. Use that. That's fine. - I feel like Andy Sachs off Devil Wears Prada. I inquired specifically here because she discovers and she roams through that space of culture and fashion, which is quite rare these days. We're just very raw and ready to be moulded. - We have a lot of interns coming through at the moment that are Maori, and we just love them and wrap around them. - A group of wahine Maori are also being mentored in the art of raranga. - I was always very interested in weaving. You know, looking at the korowai at my marae and things like that, just, like, mesmerised and always wanted to. So when Kiri offered to teach us, I was like, 'Yes, please.' Because at the beginning of the year, I didn't know how to weave. And now coming from that to like weaving a whole piece for Fashion Week is such an amazing experience. - But the deadline is looming. - So we've got to show 32 looks, and we have completed none in total. We are 11 days out, and we haven't even started maybe 10 of them. But I still feel pretty, pretty tau about it. - And with her team by her side, Kiri will soon realise her dream. Did you ever envision you'd be here prepping to open Fashion Week? - Yeah, e pirangi ana au i nga wa katoa, engari... kao. I didn't know how that would look. Like, I always wanted it. The only reason that we are here, literally here in this whare right now, is because of our whanau, friends and the people who have chosen to support our brand. - Do you have any korero akiaki for those who are maybe tutu-ing around with a sewing machine at home and thinking about getting into fashion? What would you say to them? - Your culture, your sexuality, your background, whatever it is ` none of these things should feel like a barrier. If you want to become a part of the fashion industry, you need to live your values. That's all you've got. - He ao te kaupapa. Hei te wiki e tu mai nei e te iwi, he kaupapa reo, he mana tangata. Coming up next week on The Hui ` - REPORTER: Reclaiming his reo. - My whole journey starts with boy Jaden saying to me when I come back from Australia ` 'Dad, will you learn the reo for us, your kids, and your mokos?' - We meet the humble Ngati Raukawa koro Pauly Hillman. - I hope my dad one day, you know, will be able to stand on the marae or, you know, to uphold our mana. - He's proving it's never too late to learn. - It's hard work, but, you know, you've got to do it. - And he's an example for his whanau. - Me na ka tae a koko, koro ranei, ka tae e koutou. - Ka pai a tera wiki e nga iwi. You can view all our stories from today on our social media platforms or at newshub.co.nz. Until next week, kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023