ATA MARIE E HOA MA, I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. E NGA IWI O TE MOTU, NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. COMING UP ` PARLIAMENT HAS RISEN, THE CAMPAIGN STARTS TODAY AND CHRIS HIPKINS FIGHTS HIS FIRST ELECTION AS PRIME MINISTER. HE JOINS US LIVE. NICOLA WILLIS DELIVERED THE JEWEL IN NATIONAL'S CAMPAIGN CROWN ` ITS TAX PACKAGE, BUT HOW IS IT GOING DOWN? AND ANOTHER WEEK, ANOTHER GLORIAVALE CONVICTION ` THIS ONE FOR VIOLENCE AND SEX CRIMES. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND KATE HARRIS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. WELL, IT'S FINALLY HAPPENED. PARLIAMENT HAS RISEN. LABOUR'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN LAUNCHES TODAY, AND TOMORROW IT'S NATIONAL'S TURN. SO WE WERE WITH THE PRIME MINISTER AS HE PREPARED FOR HIS FINAL QUESTION TIME. IS IT LONELY UP HERE? IT CAN BE. SOMETIMES THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE HERE YOU KNOW ARE GOING TO BE UNPOPULAR, BUT THEY'RE STILL DECISIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO MAKE. IS THAT WHY YOU HAVE THIS SIGN HERE? I GOT GIVEN THAT ACTUALLY BEFORE I BECAME PRIME MINISTER, AND IT WAS, I THINK, A REFLECTION OF THE COVID-19 RESPONSE. YOU'VE ONLY HAD YOUR FEET UNDER THIS DESK NOW FOR LESS THAN EIGHT MONTHS. YEAH. HAVE YOU GOT COMFORTABLE? NOT REALLY, NO. I ALSO THINK THAT IF YOU GET TOO COMFORTABLE, IT'S PROBABLY TIME TO MOVE ON AND DO SOMETHING ELSE. DOES IT WEIGH ON YOU, THOUGH, THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS MOMENT, THAT IT IS THE LAST QUESTION TIME, IT IS THE ADJOURNMENT DEBATE? ALL RIGHT, GUYS, THANKS SO MUCH, GUYS. GOT TO GO. IT COULD BE YOUR LAST AS PRIME MINISTER. I CERTAINLY HOPE IT'S NOT. IT'S BEEN TOUGH, BUT WE'VE GOT A LOT TO BE PROUD OF. ALL RIGHT, SO THE SCENE IS SET FOR THE BATTLE OF HIS POLITICAL LIFE. WITH ME NOW IS PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS. WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. GOOD MORNING. SO, ARE YOU READY FOR A SCRAP? WELL, I WOULDN'T NECESSARILY DESCRIBE IT AS A SCRAP. I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A GOOD ELECTION CAMPAIGN. I THINK IT'LL BE A ROBUST DEBATE OF IDEAS AND VALUES. THAT'S WHAT ELECTION CAMPAIGNS SHOULD BE ABOUT. THE POLLS STILL HAVE YOU BEHIND NATIONAL AND THIS WEEK, IT SEEMS YOU'RE GOING NEGATIVE TO TRY AND TURN THAT AROUND. TO QUOTE YOU, YOU DIDN'T JUST RULE WINSTON PETERS OUT, YOU CALLED HIM 'A FORCE FOR INSTABILITY AND CHAOS'. I THINK THAT A CLEAR STATEMENT OF VALUES AND A STATEMENT OF WHO WE WILL AND WON'T WORK WITH. WE'VE LOOKED AT ALL THE OTHER PARTIES; WINSTON PETERS' VALUES AND THE IDEAS THAT HE IS PUTTING BEFORE THE ELECTORATE AT THIS ELECTION ARE NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OURS. IT'S MORE ABOUT THE LANGUAGE, REALLY. YOU ALSO CALLED NATIONAL-ACT-NZ FIRST 'A COALITION OF FEAR'. THAT'S BLEAK LANGUAGE. I THINK WE JUST BEING UPFRONT WITH HOW WE SEE THE ISSUES COMING INTO THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN. WE HAD TWO YEARS OF CHRISTOPHER LUXON BAGGING US EVERY DAY. I THINK AS WE GET INTO THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WE ARE GOING TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT. SO THIS IS 'PRIME MINISTER UNLEASHED' A BIT, IS IT? WELL, IT'S AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN. IT'S GOING TO BE A CONTEST OF IDEAS. A LOT OF THE NONSENSE THE NATIONAL PARTY HAVE BEEN PUTTING BEFORE THE ELECTORATE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HASN'T BEEN CHALLENGED IS NOW GOING TO BE CHALLENGED BECAUSE WE ARE GETTING INTO AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN. YEAH, BUT WHEN THE PRIME MINISTER STARTS INVOKING FEAR, ISN'T THAT A STEP TOO FAR? YOU'RE TAPPING INTO PEOPLE'S ANXIETIES. WELL, AGAIN, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE OPPOSITION HAVE BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, THEY HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY TAPPING INTO FEAR. I'M CALLING THEM OUT ON IT. I'M SAYING I DON'T THINK THAT ACTUALLY WINNING AN ELECTION SHOULD BE ABOUT TAPPING INTO PEOPLE'S FEARS. IT SHOULD BE ABOUT CREATING HOPE FOR THE FUTURE. THAT'S VERY MUCH WHAT I'M FOCUSED ON. IS IT GOING TO BE A SUCCESSFUL TACT THOUGH? I MEAN, WHO LIKES THAT? WHICH VOTERS ARE YOU TRYING TO ENTICE WITH THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE? WHAT I'M SETTING OUT IS LABOUR'S VISION FOR THE FUTURE AND WHAT IS AT RISK IF THERE IS A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT. THAT'S A LEGITIMATE PART OF ELECTION CAMPAIGNING. OK, SO YOU SAY THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO CREATE A CLEAR-CUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU, BUT THIS WEEK, NATIONAL SAY` HAD REALLY GOOD CUT-THROUGH WITH ITS MAXIMUM $25 A WEEK TAX CUT FOR MEDIAN EARNERS. THAT LOOKS BETTER ON THE BILLBOARDS AND SOCIALS THAN $5 A WEEK GST-FREE FRUIT AND VEG. IT PUTS YOU ON THE BACK FOOT. IT'S A REAL SMOKE AND MIRRORS EXERCISE. WHEN YOU SCRATCH BELOW THE SURFACE, YOU'LL FIND THAT NATIONAL ARE GIVING WITH ONE HAND AND TAKING MORE WITH ANOTHER, SO THEY'RE GOING TO CANCEL A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO FUND THEIR TAX CUTS AND THEIR NUMBERS SIMPLY DON'T ADD UP. THEY'RE PROPOSING TO INTRODUCE FOUR NEW TAXES AND THE NUMBERS JUST DON'T ADD UP. BUT IF YOU STRIP AWAY ALL THE ADD-ONS AND ALL THE CALCULATIONS, IT'S ABOUT THE HEADLINES, ISN'T IT? IT'S ABOUT WHAT THE VOTER THINKS OF WHEN THEY HEAD INTO THAT BOOTH ` THE EASY NUMBERS. I DON'T THINK NEW ZEALANDERS VOTE EXCLUSIVELY BASED ON ONE SINGLE ISSUE. I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE BASED ON POTENTIALLY, IN THE CASE OF A MINIMUM WAGE WORKER, THE IDEA OF $0.25 AN HOUR EXTRA. I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE BASED ON WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY THEY WANT TO LIVE IN, HOW THEY WANT THE COUNTRY TO FEEL, WHAT THEIR HOPES AND ASPIRATIONS ARE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHILDREN. I WANT NEW ZEALANDERS TO KNOW THAT IF THEY WANT TO WORK HARD, THEY WANT TO GET AHEAD, THEY WANT TO CREATE A BETTER LIFE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES, THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS CREATING THE KIND OF CONDITIONS WHERE THEY CAN DO THAT. THAT'S YOUR MESSAGE THERE, BUT REALLY, IT'S THE SIMPLICITY OF MESSAGE THAT GETS CUT-THROUGH FOR THE VOTERS, ISN'T IT? AND SO FAR, I THINK, NATIONAL IS WINNING THAT BATTLE. WELL, IF PEOPLE WANT TO VOTE FOR INVESTMENTS THAT WE'RE MAKING IN HEALTH, EDUCATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE; IF THEY WANT TO VOTE FOR MORE CHILDREN IN POVERTY, IF THEY WANT TO VOTE TO SELL NEW ZEALAND HOUSES TO OVERSEAS INVESTORS, THOSE ARE THE POLICIES THAT NATIONAL ARE PUTTING BEFORE THE ELECTORATE. I THINK WE'RE A BETTER COUNTRY THAN THAT. I ACTUALLY THINK NEW ZEALAND CAN HAVE A BETTER FUTURE THAN THAT. $4 BILLION WORTH OF SAVINGS ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK, SIX WEEKS OUT FROM THE ELECTION. TO ME, THAT GIVES THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU'RE LATE TO ECONOMIC RESTRAINT. ABSOLUTELY NOT. WE ANNOUNCED $4 BILLION WORTH OF SAVINGS IN THE BUDGET AS WELL, AND IN THE BUDGET, WE SAID THAT WE WERE GOING TO GO THROUGH AN EXERCISE TO IDENTIFY MORE SAVINGS` BUT YOU KNEW ABOUT THIS SHORTFALL IN TAX REVENUE BACK IN MAY-JUNE, DIDN'T YOU? AND WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON THAT SINCE THEN. THIS IS A SAVINGS EXERCISE WE KICKED OFF IN MAY WITH THE MAY BUDGET. WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH VERY CAREFULLY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN BALANCE THE BUDGET WITHOUT CUTTING INTO FRONTLINE PUBLIC SERVICES LIKE HEALTH AND LIKE EDUCATION. I'M CONFIDENT THAT WHAT WE'RE PUTTING OUT THERE IS GOING TO DO THAT. DEEPER CUTS THAN THAT CAN ONLY RESULT IN CUTS TO FRONT LINE SERVICES. BUT AGAIN, THAT'S SORT OF THE NARRATIVE, ISN'T IT? CUTTING BACK ON CONSULTANTS, PUBLIC SERVICE SAVINGS ` THESE HAVE BEEN KEY OPPOSITION ATTACK LINES AND IT SORT OF FEELS LIKE YOU'RE SUDDENLY ACTING NOW. SORT OF` AGAIN, IT FEELS LIKE LATE TO THE PARTY. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SPEND ON CONSULTANTS AND CONTRACTORS, IT'S BEEN TRENDING BACK DOWN AFTER A PEAK DURING THE COVID-19 PERIOD. CONSULTANTS AND CONTRACTORS SPEND WAS GOING DOWN IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS WE WERE IN GOVERNMENT. IT STARTED TO GO UP BECAUSE OF THE COVID PANDEMIC. I'M NOT GOING TO APOLOGISE FOR THAT. WE HAD TO DO EVERYTHING WE NEEDED TO DO TO SUPPORT THE COUNTRY THROUGH THAT, BUT NOW IT'S COMING BACK DOWN AGAIN. AND I GUESS, BUT IT'S THE PERCEPTION OF, YOU'RE DOING IT NOW, 11TH HOUR AFTER SIX YEARS OF GOVERNING. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, ISN'T IT? NO, NOT AT ALL. I ABSOLUTELY REJECT THAT WE'RE DOING IT NOW AS A LAST MINUTE THING. THIS HAS BEEN AN ONGOING PROGRAMME OVER ABOUT THE LAST 18 MONTHS AS WE EXITED THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC RESPONSE. WE HAVE BEEN DIALLING BACK THAT EXPENDITURE THAT WE DID DIAL UP DURING THE COVID RESPONSE TO SUPPORT THE COUNTRY THROUGH. MAYBE ANOTHER VULNERABILITY FOR YOU IS EDUCATION, BECAUSE SOME OF THE STATS THAT HAVE RECENTLY COME OUT HAVE BEEN DISTURBING ` 15% OF SCHOOL LEAVERS DON'T HAVE NCEA LEVEL 1. IT'S REALLY BASIC. AND THAT IS 50% WORSE THAN 2017. WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLY DISRUPTIVE FEW YEARS FOR OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM. KIDS HAVE LOST A LOT OF LEARNING. KIDS WENT AWAY FROM THE CLASSROOM FOR THE COVID-19 RESPONSE PERIOD. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DISRUPTION. TEACHERS HAVE BEEN OUT OF THE CLASSROOM A LOT MORE THAN THEY NORMALLY WOULD BE. SURE. AND WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. BUT ALSO, I WOULD SAY TO YOU, THOSE 15-YEAR-OLDS ARE THE KIDS WHO WENT THROUGH THEIR PRIMARY SCHOOL EDUCATION UNDER NATIONAL STANDARDS. THERE ARE NO SILVER BULLETS HERE, AND IF YOU LOOK FOR A SILVER BULLET, YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT TIMES. BUT WE'VE ENDED UP WITH A REALLY` ANOTHER BAD STAT, FOR EXAMPLE, A QUARTER OF DECILE 1 AND 2 SCHOOL LEAVERS DIDN'T GET NCEA LEVEL 1. THAT'S TERRIBLE. WHAT'S THAT DOING? HOW'S THAT SETTING THEM UP? AND THIS HAS HAPPENED WHEN YOU HAD A PERIOD AS EDUCATION MINISTER AND UNDER YOUR WATCH. IT'S ABSOLUTELY NOT ACCEPTABLE, BUT WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS THAT THERE ARE NO OVERNIGHT FIXES FOR THIS. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SCHOOL A PLACE WHERE THOSE KIDS WANT TO GO. TOO MANY KIDS AREN'T SHOWING UP TO SCHOOL REGULARLY. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE GETTING THEM THROUGH THE SCHOOL GATES. NOW, SIMPLY SITTING THEM DOWN FOR THREE HOURS A DAY AND DRILLING THEM WITH READING, WRITING AND MATHS ` THAT HASN'T WORKED IN THE PAST. IT'S GOING BACK TO THE 1950s. WE'VE ACTUALLY GOT TO CREATE AN EDUCATION SYSTEM WHERE KIDS WANNA BE THERE AND THEY'RE ENGAGED IN THEIR LEARNING. WON'T VOTERS GET CONFUSED WITH THAT PARTICULAR POLICY? YOU JUST QUOTED NATIONAL'S POLICY, TEACHING THE BASICS, BUT THEN YOU WANT TO MANDATE READING, WRITING, MATH AND MAKE THEM CORE TEACHING REQUIREMENTS. ABSOLUTELY, BUT` IT COMES AFTER NATIONAL'S DONE IT. AGAIN, IT FEELS LATE. BUT FORCING THEM TO SIT THERE FOR THREE HOURS A DAY FOR THOSE THINGS ISN'T GOING TO ENGAGE THEM IN THEIR LEARNING. KIDS WILL ENGAGE IN THEIR LEARNING WHEN THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT A CURRICULUM THAT'S ENGAGING, STIMULATING AND INTERESTING. WHEN I GO AND VISIT SCHOOLS, AND I'VE DONE A LOT OF THAT OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS, THESE KIDS BLEW ME AWAY, BUT WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SCHOOL A PLACE WHERE THEY WANT TO BE. AND YOU THINK THE VOTERS ARE GOING TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THOSE TWO POLICIES? BECAUSE AGAIN, IT'S THE HEADLINE, 'READING, WRITING, MATHS', FOR BOTH OF THEM. YEAH, WE'VE TAKEN OUR TIME TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE BUILDING A POLICY THAT'S BASED ON EVIDENCE OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO WORK, NOT A QUICK-FIX, SIMPLISTIC, SLOGAN-BASED, CLICK BAIT POLICY LIKE WE SAW UNDER NATIONAL. SHOULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS SIX MONTHS AGO OR THREE YEARS AGO? LOOK, LET'S BE FRANK, WE WERE WORKING ON THIS THREE YEARS AGO. AND IT ONLY GOT IT NOW` NO, NO, THE PANDEMIC CAME ALONG AND I MADE THE DECISION AS MINISTER OF EDUCATION THAT IN A TIME WHERE SCHOOLS WERE SIMPLY STRUGGLING TO GET THROUGH ONE DAY AT A TIME, THIS WASN'T THE TIME TO BE IMPOSING EXTRA REQUIREMENTS ON THEM, AND I THINK THAT WAS STILL THE RIGHT DECISION TO MAKE. WE DID ACTUALLY TAKE A BREAK FROM EDUCATION REFORM DURING THE PANDEMIC PERIOD. WE STILL HAVE MORE REFORM TO DO. LET'S LOOK BACK TO YOU COMING INTO POWER IN 2017 ` HEADY DAYS. JACINDA ARDERN PROMISED TRANSFORMATION. AND YOU'VE BEEN IN THE KITCHEN CABINET, YOU ARE NOW PM. HAVE YOU LIVED UP TO TRANSFORMATION? WE'VE LIFTED CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY EVERY YEAR WE'VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT. WE'VE NOW GOT OUR EMISSIONS, OUR CARBON EMISSIONS, WHICH ARE THE MAJOR DRIVER OF CLIMATE CHANGE, TRENDING DOWN FOR 3 YEARS IN A ROW. THOSE THINGS HAVE COME ABOUT BECAUSE OF STRONG LEADERSHIP. WE ARE REBUILDING THE COUNTRY'S INFRASTRUCTURE, WE'VE GOT RECORD LEVELS OF INVESTMENT IN OUR ROADING INFRASTRUCTURE, OUR RAIL INFRASTRUCTURE, WE'RE BUILDING NEW CLASSROOMS AND NEW SCHOOLS, WE'RE UPGRADING AND REBUILDING OUR HOSPITALS ` THESE ARE TRANSFORMATIVE POLICIES. TRANSFORMATION DOESN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. SURE. AND SO THERE'S THE COUNTERFACTUAL, ISN'T IT? WE ARE IN RECESSION; THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE ON BENEFITS. HARDSHIP GRANTS ARE STILL HIGHER THAN THEY WERE PRE-COVID. 24,000 FAMILIES ON STATE HOUSING REGISTER. IS THAT HOW YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD FINISH AN HISTORIC MAJORITY LABOUR GOVERNMENT? WELL, I'M GOING TO CHALLENGE YOU A LITTLE BIT ON THAT. IN TERMS OF THE RECESSION THAT WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT, THE CYCLONE WAS THE MAJOR CONTRIBUTING FACTOR THERE. HAD WE NOT HAD A CYCLONE, WE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN A TECHNICAL RECESSION IN THE FIRST HALF OF THIS YEAR. YOU CAN STATE THAT CATEGORICALLY? OUR` ABSOLUTELY. YOU CAN LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AND ALL THE ECONOMISTS WILL TELL YOU THE SAME ` THAT THE DOWNTURN IN THE PRIMARY SECTOR CAUSED BY THE CYCLONE WAS THE DETERMINING FACTOR AS TO WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE JUST INTO A GROWTH OR JUST INTO A RECESSION. AND THE FACTS ARE, WE ARE IN A RECESSION. YEAH BUT, WELL, WE WERE IN THE FIRST HALF OF THIS YEAR. THE JURY'S STILL OUT. THE CURRENT QUARTER NUMBERS WILL DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT` THE ECONOMY'S NOT LOOKING GREAT FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR, AND NEITHER IS THE INTERNATIONAL` IT'S A CHALLENGING TIME ECONOMICALLY, GLOBALLY, AROUND THE WORLD, AND NEW ZEALAND'S NOT IMMUNE FROM THAT. WE'RE A TRADING NATION. WHEN A COLD WIND BLOWS IN FROM OFF-SHORE, OF COURSE IT HAS AN IMPACT ON NEW ZEALAND. INFLATION HAS BEEN RAMPANT AROUND THE WORLD POST THE PANDEMIC, AND NEW ZEALAND, OF COURSE, HAS EXPERIENCED THAT. AND, OF COURSE, THE OPPOSITION BLAMES YOU FOR THAT AS WELL, IN TERMS OF DOMESTIC INFLATION. BUT LOOK, LET'S MOVE ON FROM THAT. THIS HAS BECOME A FIGHT FOR THE CENTRE. AND YOU MADE A BIG CALL ` NO WEALTH TAX, NO CAPITAL GAINS TAX. BOTH OF THOSE THINGS I THINK YOUR VOTERS WOULD REALLY HAVE WANTED. IF YOU LOOK AT A WEALTH TAX, A WEALTH TAX SIMPLY DOESN'T STACK UP. ULTIMATELY, WEALTH IS VERY MOBILE. IF NEW ZEALAND WAS ONE OF THE ONLY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TO INTRODUCE A WEALTH TAX, WHICH WE WOULD HAVE BEEN, THEN THE WEALTH WOULD SIMPLY RELOCATE TO A PLACE WHERE THEY WEREN'T PAYING A WEALTH TAX. SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO` AND CAPITAL GAINS? A LOT OF OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE CAPITAL GAINS TAXES. THE CHALLENGE WITH CAPITAL GAINS TAX, LET'S BE FRANK ABOUT IT, IS YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CAPITAL GAINS TAX IN PLACE FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE YOU START TO MAKE VERY MUCH MONEY OFF IT. (CHUCKLES) WELL, WHY NOT PUT IT IN WHEN YOU HAVE A MAJORITY MANDATE? BECAUSE IF THERE IS NOT A MAJORITY SUPPORT FOR IT ON A LONGER TERM ENDURING BASIS, THEN ACTUALLY IT WOULD LEAD TO SIGNIFICANT INSTABILITY IN THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT'S FINANCES ARE RUN AND THE TAX SYSTEM. IF YOU'D HAD, WHAT I'D CALL, THE COURAGE TO GO FOR A WEALTH TAX, LIKE GRANT ROBERTSON, LIKE DAVID PARKER WANTED, WOULDN'T YOU BE OFFERING VOTERS THAT CLEAR-CUT CHOICE? I DON'T THINK A WEALTH TAX WOULD BE FAIR. I DON'T THINK IT WOULD REALISE THE SORTS OF PROJECTED REVENUE THAT THE SORTS OF INCOME THAT SOME OF THE ASSUMPTIONS WERE BASED ON. AND FUNDAMENTALLY, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD. I DON'T THINK IT WOULD GENERATE THE KIND OF ECONOMY THAT WE NEED TO GROW JOBS AND TO GROW WAGES AND THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON. IF WE WANT NEW ZEALAND TO GET AHEAD, WE NEED MORE JOBS, WE NEED BETTER PAID JOBS, WE NEED PEOPLE TO BE EARNING MORE. BUT AREN'T YOU SORT OF ALIENATING YOUR BASE HERE, THE PROGRESSIVE BASE OF LABOUR PARTY? I MEAN, YOU'VE ALSO BONFIRED THOSE COUPLE OF IDEAS. YOU'VE ALSO BONFIRED SOME CLIMATE POLICIES. I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU'RE LOSING YOUR WAY AS A LABOUR LEADER. I CAN TELL YOU ON THE CLIMATE CHANGE POLICIES, I'VE LOOKED AT THE CLIMATE POLICIES THAT AREN'T EFFECTIVE, THAT WEREN'T GOING TO REDUCE OUR CARBON EMISSIONS, AND WE HAVE REDIRECTED OUR INVESTMENT INTO POLICIES THAT WILL. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE CASH FOR CLUNKERS SCHEME, WASN'T ACTUALLY GOING TO REDUCE OUR CLIMATE EMISSIONS IN ANY TANGIBLE WAY ` WE'VE REDIRECTED THAT FUNDING. THAT WAS GOING TO COST HALF A BILLION DOLLARS. WE REDIRECTED THAT FUNDING, AND IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE GIDI PROGRAMMES LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE NEW ZEALAND STEEL DEAL, THAT'S GOING TO REDUCE 1% OF OUR EMISSIONS EVERY YEAR. THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, SO I REJECT THE IDEA THAT I HAVE SOMEHOW TURNED MY BACK ON THE CLIMATE CHANGE CHALLENGE. BUT WAIT A MINUTE` IN FACT, I THINK I'VE DONE THE OPPOSITE. I'M ACCELERATING OUR PROGRESS. AND IN TERMS OF THE TAXES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE YOU ALIENATING YOUR PROGRESSIVE BASE THERE? AND YOU NEED EVERY ONE OF THOSE IN THIS VERY TIGHT ELECTION. INCREASING TAXES IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO BE PROGRESSIVE. ACTUALLY, BEING PROGRESSIVE MEANS LIFTING CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. WE ARE DOING THAT. IT MEANS INVESTING IN PUBLIC SERVICES, LIKE HEALTH AND EDUCATION, AND WE ARE DOING THAT. NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR CUTTING TAXES. I'M ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT WHAT WE HAVE NOW IN OUR TAX SYSTEM IS A GOOD WAY FORWARD. WE SHOULD NOT BE CUTTING TAXES AT THE MOMENT. WE SHOULD INSTEAD BE INVESTING IN THE PUBLIC SERVICES THAT NEW ZEALANDERS RELY ON. IF, POST-ELECTION, YOU DO GET THE CHANCE TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, YOU WILL HAVE, PROBABLY, THE GREEN PARTY AND TE PATI MAORI. YOU'RE GOING TO RELY ON THEM AND THEY WILL WANT A WEALTH TAX. YOU WILL HAVE TO CONSIDER IT, WON'T YOU? I'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR ` WE WON'T BE IMPLEMENTING A WEALTH TAX IN THE NEXT TERM. AND ANY PARTIES THAT ARE PROPOSING THAT WILL NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT WITHOUT THE LABOUR PARTY SUPPORTING IT. (CHUCKLES) SO YOU'RE SAYING TO THE GREENS AND TE PATI MAORI, 'DON'T ASK FOR IT.' I'M SAYING THAT WE WON'T SUPPORT ONE. OK, THIS IS YOUR TIME AS PRIME MINISTER. ONLY 40 OTHER PEOPLE HAVE HELD THE JOB, AND YOUR TIME COULD LAST LESS THAN NINE MONTHS. WOULD THAT BE GUTTING FOR YOU? LOOK, I'D BE REALLY DISAPPOINTED. I'M THOROUGHLY ENJOYING THE JOB. I FEEL LIKE I'M JUST SORT OF GETTING STARTED, REALLY, AND I'D LIKE NEW ZEALANDERS TO GIVE ME A FULL TERM SO I CAN SHOW THEM WHAT I CAN ACTUALLY DO IF I'M GIVEN A FULL TERM AS PRIME MINISTER. ALL RIGHT. SO IF YOU ARE GIVEN ANOTHER SHOT AS PRIME MINISTER, TELL ME, WHAT IS THE MOST TRANSFORMATIONAL THING THAT YOU WOULD DO? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT TRANSFORMATION OF OUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO RELY ON ONE SINGLE THING. I THINK WHAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IS CREATE THE TYPE OF ECONOMY THAT'S GOING TO GROW OUR JOBS, GROW OUR WAGES, MEANING THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING HARD CAN GET AHEAD, MEANING OUR FIRST-TIME BUYERS ACTUALLY CAN KEEP A STEP ON THAT LADDER TO BUYING THEIR FIRST HOME SO THAT WE CAN KEEP LIFTING CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY, SO THAT WE CAN KEEP TACKLING CLIMATE CHANGE AND BRINGING DOWN OUR EMISSIONS. I THINK TRANSFORMATION ISN'T ONE SINGLE THING. IT'S A RANGE OF THINGS THAT WE DO AS A GOVERNMENT, AND THEY DON'T DELIVER OVERNIGHT RESULTS. THAT ACTUALLY CHANGE NEW ZEALAND OVER TIME. MANY OF THE TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGES WE SAW IN THE 1980s AND THE 1990s, WE ONLY SAW THE CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE DECADES LATER, AND WE'RE LIVING WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGES NOW TODAY. THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT MORE KIDS LIVING IN POVERTY, THE FACT THAT WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN PRISON ` MANY OF THOSE THINGS CAN ACTUALLY BE TIED BACK TO THE ECONOMIC CHANGES THAT WERE MADE IN THE '80s AND '90s. WOULD WE SEE A DIFFERENT PRIME MINISTER POST-ELECTION IF YOU GET BACK IN? YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH CYCLONE GABRIELLE, THE AUCKLAND FLOODS, A SERIES OF MINISTERIAL SCANDALS. YOU'VE BEEN VERY REACTIONARY. WOULD WE SEE A DIFFERENT PRIME MINISTER IF YOU HAD THAT MANDATE? WELL, YOU'LL SEE SETTING OUT OVER THE NEXT SIX WEEKS MY PRIORITIES AND WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO AS PRIME MINISTER. OBVIOUSLY, I CAME IN MIDWAY THROUGH THE PARLIAMENTARY TERM, OR TOWARDS THE END OF THE PARLIAMENTARY TERM, AND SO I WAS INHERITING A WORK PROGRAMME THAT WAS DETERMINED BY MY PREDECESSOR, SO YOU WILL SEE IN THIS CAMPAIGN ME SETTING OUT MY AGENDA. BUT I ALSO TELL YOU, SIMON, ONE OF THESE THINGS THAT'S BEEN VERY CLEAR TO ME OVER THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS OF DOING THIS JOB IS THAT YOU CANNOT MAP EVERYTHING OUT EVERYTHING PERFECTLY OVER THE START OF THE PARLIAMENTARY TERM AND ASSUME THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FOR THREE YEARS. THINGS CHANGE AND YOUR VALUES AND YOUR IDEAS THAT YOU BRING TO THE JOB ARE THE THINGS THAT GUIDE YOUR DECISIONS. YOU CAN'T ALWAYS CONTROL THE DECISIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE, BUT YOU CAN BRING A CLEAR SET OF VALUES AND A CLEAR SET OF IDEALS TO THAT. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO CAMPAIGN AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO GET, TO SEE IN THE NEXT SIX WEEKS? ABSOLUTELY. OK. ALL RIGHT, LET'S FLIP IT AROUND. THE POLLS ARE TIGHT. YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR POLITICAL SURVIVAL. IF YOU DON'T WIN, WILL YOU RESIGN AS LABOUR LEADER? I DON'T HAVE A PLAN B. I'M FOCUSED ONLY ON PLAN A. I'LL THINK ABOUT PLAN B THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION IN THE EVENT THAT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS, BUT MY FOCUS IN THE NEXT SIX WEEKS IS TO GET OUT THERE AND TO WIN THE ELECTION FOR LABOUR. PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS, BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR CAMPAIGN. WE'LL SEE YOU OUT THERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT, STICK WITH US. WE'LL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` KRIS FAAFOI, DITA DE BONI AND TRISH SHERSON. PLUS ` IT WAS HER WEEK, HER MOMENT, HER CENTREPIECE POLICY. NICOLA WILLIS AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. WELL, IT'S BEEN A HUGE WEEK FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY AND A BIG TEST FOR NICOLA WILLIS, WHO FINALLY DELIVERED HER TAX POLICY. IT IS THE CENTREPIECE OF THE PARTY'S CAMPAIGN AND WORTH A WHOPPING $14.6 BILLION. SO, WHAT DO ORDINARY HARDWORKING KIWIS GET FOR THAT? HERE IS NICOLA WILLIS. NICOLA, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT` NICOLA, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT` SORRY, REBECCA. NICOLA, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THIS TAX POLICY IS THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN OF THE NATIONAL PARTY AS IT HEADS INTO THE ELECTION. IF I'M A PERSON ON $80,000 A YEAR, MY TAX RELIEF I THINK IS AROUND $20 A WEEK OR $1000 A YEAR. $40 A FORTNIGHT. IS THAT REALLY A GAME CHANGER FOR PEOPLE IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT? WELL, I THINK SOMEONE ON $80,000 A WEEK WILL BE MAKING A JUDGEMENT ABOUT THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WANT. I'M ASKING IF IT'S A GAME CHANGER FOR THEM PERSONALLY, ECONOMICALLY. $20 A WEEK. FOR SOME IT WILL, AND FOR OTHERS, THE GAME CHANGER FOR THEM WILL BE A BETTER-MANAGED ECONOMY IN WHICH WAGES WILL GROW FASTER AND INFLATION WILL BE LOWER. FOR OTHERS, IT WILL BE THE CHANGES IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. FOR OTHERS, IT'LL BE A BETTER-PERFORMING HEALTH SYSTEM. PEOPLE VOTE ACCORDING TO DIFFERENT VALUES. CAN I JUST SAY, REBECCA, I MEAN, IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME. I HAD A COUPLE` I HAD A 13-YEAR-OLD BOY COME UP TO ME THE OTHER DAY AT A PUBLIC MEETING, AND HE CAME UP TO ME AFTER I STOPPED SPEAKING, RACED UP ON STAGE AND SAID TO ME, 'CHRIS, IS THERE ANY WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD PAY FOR MY BRACES?' AND I SAID TO HIM, 'MATE, I'M SORRY, ACTUALLY, WITH OUR HEALTH CARE 'SPEND THAT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN'T AFFORD. 'I'D LOVE TO DO IT, BUT WE CAN'T DO IT.' QUICKLY, HIS MUM AND DAD GOT UP TO ME AND THEY SAID, 'LOOK, I'M SORRY, CHRIS. 'HE'S ASKING THE QUESTION BECAUSE TWO NIGHTS AGO, WE AS A FAMILY 'ACTUALLY HAD TO SAY TO HIM, WE CAN'T AFFORD THE BRACES BECAUSE 'WE'VE ACTUALLY HAD OUR MORTGAGE RATE GO FROM 2.7% TO 6.7% 'AND HAVE TO FIND 700 BUCKS A FORTNIGHT.' THAT IS MEANINGFUL, AND THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE. AND SO $20 A FORTNIGHT HELPS THAT FAMILY DEAL WITH SOME OF THOSE COSTS. THAT IS FOR THE MEDIAN, THAT IS FOR THE AVERAGE WAGE. BUT WHEN YOU GET INTO THE PROVINCES, ACTUALLY, THE MEDIAN WAGE OR THE AVERAGE WAGE IS MUCH LESS THAN THE $120,000 THAT YOU MODELLED ON. SO, IF I'M A FAMILY OF TWO, WITH TWO ADULTS, A COUPLE IN THE MANAWATU, IT'S ACTUALLY ONLY WORTH $17 A WEEK TO ME. SO WHAT INCOME ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY WOULD GET? ON $100,000 FOR A COUPLE IN THE MANAWATU. SO THEY WOULD GET $68 A FORTNIGHT IN INCOME RELIEF IF THEY DON'T CHILDREN. SO $16 EACH. IF THEY DO HAVE CHILDREN, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO GET UP TO AN ADDITIONAL $75 PER WEEK IN CHILDCARE. SO $16 A WEEK FOR EACH MEMBER OF THAT FAMILY, OF THAT COUPLE. THAT'S THE SAME IN TARANAKI, GISBORNE, IN THE BAY OF PLENTY, WAIKATO, OTAGO, SOUTHLAND. IS THIS TAX CUTS FOR HIGHER EARNERS IN THE CITIES? NO, THIS IS TARGETED AT THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE, AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THE TABLES WHICH ARE AVAILABLE ON PAGES 23, 24 THROUGH 26. THE MOST RELIEF GOES TO PEOPLE ON MEDIAN INCOMES. BUT THE MEDIAN INCOME IS DIFFERENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THE MOST RELIEF GOES TO PEOPLE ON AVERAGE INCOMES. NICOLA WILLIS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON THERE EARLIER THIS WEEK AT THEIR ANNOUNCEMENT. JOINING ME NOW FOR EXPERT ANALYSIS IS NZME HEAD OF BUSINESS FRAN O'SULLIVAN, WELCOME, AND SENSE PARTNERS ECONOMIST SHAMUBEEL EAQUB. WELCOME TO YOU TOO. A BIG WEEK THIS WEEK. WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS POLICY FOR A LONG TIME. SHAMUBEEL, YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT DISTRIBUTION ACROSS HOUSEHOLDS OF THESE TAX CUTS. WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND? AS PER YOUR QUESTION, REBECCA, THE INCOME IS MUCH LOWER IN THE PROVINCES, SO THE BENEFITS WILL BE MUCH LESS IN THE PROVINCES THAN THEY WILL BE IN THE CITIES. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MIDDLE OF THE MIDDLE IN NEW ZEALAND, A YOUNG COUPLE LIVING IN THE MANAWATU, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'RE ONLY GONNA GET A VERY FEW DOLLARS A WEEK. IT IS A CASE OF THE NUMBERS LOOKING VERY BIG ON THE AGGREGATE. TAX CUTS ARE REALLY EXPENSIVE, BUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR PEOPLE'S BACK POCKETS IS QUITE SMALL AT THE MARGIN UNLESS YOU ARE A HIGH INCOME EARNER. FRAN, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THIS TAX CUT ELEMENT WHEN YOU SAW IT UNVEILED, WHAT DID YOU THINK? WERE YOU SURPRISED? NO, I WASN'T SURPRISED, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS, IF YOU ARE MAKING THE CASE FOR THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE, I WOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN TAX BREAKS TO THE BASE OF NATIONAL, IN OTHER WORDS, MOVING ON INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY FOR PROPERTY, ALSO BRIGHT LINE TESTS, A RANGE OF THINGS. THAT MONEY COULD HAVE BEEN POURED INTO MORE TAX CUTS FOR THE MIDDLE. WERE THE BIG WINNERS OF ALL OF THIS THE PROPERTY INVESTORS, SHAMUBEEL? ABSOLUTELY, THAT IS WHERE A HUGE CHANGE WILL TAKE PLACE. THE RETURN OF THE INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY WILL BE A BIG DEAL FOR PROPERTY INVESTORS. IT WAS VERY MUCH DESIGNED TOWARDS THEIR BASE, AS FRAN SAYS. IT IS POLITICS, BUT IT FEELS QUITE CYNICAL RELATIVE TO THE HEADLINES. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT $14.6 BILLION, AND THE ACTUAL IMPACT FOR HOUSEHOLDS IS QUITE SMALL, IS THE BENEFIT WORTH THE RISK, FRAN, IN GLOBALLY UNCERTAIN ECONOMIC TIMES? YEAH, AND IT'S VERY INTERESTING. ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND QUITE FASCINATING WAS THE DECISION TO TAKE THE CAP OFF BUYING HOMES, MORE THAN $2 MILLION FOR AN OFFSHORE BUYER, AND A RATHER HEROIC ASSUMPTION THAT SLAPPING 15% ON THAT WILL RAISE THE THICK END OF THREE QUARTERS OF $1 BILLION. THAT ASSUMES PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ARRIVE HERE AND BUY AT THIS TIME, AND IT ASSUMES RELATIVE WEALTH, BUT WHAT ALSO CONCERNS ME IS WHAT IT MEANS TO THE OVERALL PRICE OF HOUSES. IT BRINGS MORE COMPETITION INTO THE MARKET, THOSE WHO FLICK OFF HOUSES ASSUMING WILL BUY SOMETHING ELSE. SO, IT GETS THE MARKET GOING AGAIN BUT AT A TIME WHEN THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE IS FINDING IT HARD IN SOME CASES TO SERVICE MORTGAGES, OR BUY A HOUSE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I FIND THAT, ONE OF THE THINGS WE NOTICED OVER THE LAST LITTLE WHILE WAS THE WEALTH EFFECT. PEOPLE FELT GOOD IF THE VALUE OF THEIR HOUSES WENT UP. EVERYONE IS NOW FACING, IF YOU'VE GOT A MORTGAGE, INCREASED COSTS, YOUR EQUITY HAS BEEN DEPRESSED. ADD MORE COMPETITION INTO THE MARKET BOTH BY DOING THAT, BUT ALSO BY ALLOWING MORE IMMIGRATION, SUDDENLY YOU CAN SEE AN ELEVATION IN PROPERTY PRICES OVER TIME. THAT WILL BE GREAT FOR THE BASE, BUT IT WILL STILL IMPACT THAT SQUEEZED MIDDLE. THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE MISSES OUT. SHAMUBEEL, THESE NUMBERS HAVE STARTED TO UNRAVEL AROUND THIS FOREIGN BUYERS TAX, HAVEN'T THEY? THOSE NUMBERS ARE JUST BULLSHIT, TO BE HONEST. THE POTENTIAL TAX REVENUE FROM ALL OF THE OVER $2 MILLION PROPERTIES WOULD BE OVER $1 BILLION BASED ON THE LAST 12 MONTHS. THEY ARE ASSUMING MORE THAN 70% OF THOSE $2 MILLION+ PROPERTIES WILL BE SOLD TO FOREIGNERS. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I GET THE TAX CUTS FROM A POLITICAL ELEMENT, TRYING TO APPEAL TO YOUR BASE, BUT THE FISCAL NEUTRALITY PART WHICH WAS A CENTREPIECE OF THEIR POLICY, THAT DOES NOT LOOK AS WELL THOUGHT OUT. WHOEVER HAS DONE THAT QUALITY ASSURANCE NEEDS TO HAVE A GOOD LOOK, BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE GOT IT RIGHT. WE ALSO FOUND OUT THERE MAY BE WRINKLES IN IMPLEMENTING THIS, WITH BIG MARKETS OF BUYERS LIKE CHINA AND AUSTRALIA, FOR EXAMPLE. THAT IS PROBLEMATIC, ISN'T IT, FOR THE POLICY? IT IS. WE HAVE TAX AGREEMENTS WHICH IN SOME CASES MAKE THIS DIFFICULT. I THINK THERE IS AN ISSUE WITH THOSE AGREEMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND A LOT OF COUNTRIES DON'T ALLOW` THEY PUT THEIR PRIVATE MARKET FIRST, AND ARE VERY CAREFUL TO MAKE SURE FOREIGNERS DON'T BID UP PRICES. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ASIA, LAST TIME WE HAD A MAJOR PRICE ESCALATION, HOUSES IN NEW ZEALAND WERE BEING MARKETED AGGRESSIVELY, AND MARKETED AT NO STAMP DUTY, WHICH EFFECTIVELY THIS 15% TAX IS, NO CAPITAL GAINS TAX, VERY LITTLE REGULATION. YOU CAN TURN OVER YOUR HOUSES IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. SO WE HAVE HAD THAT GIANT SUCKING SOUND OF PEOPLE COMING IN, BEING MARKETED INTO THE ECONOMY WITH A TAX SYSTEM THAT IS SO BENEFICIAL TO PROPERTY, AND NOT ELSEWHERE. WHAT IS INTERESTING TO ME IS NATIONAL INTRODUCED THE BRIGHT LINE TEST, AND NOW THEY WANT TO INTRODUCE A STAMP DUTY. AND YOU KNOW HOW THIS WILL PLAY OUT IN THE COURSE OF THE COMING DECADES. THESE WILL BECOME PERMANENT AND FOR EVERYBODY. IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE A PARTY THAT IS AGAINST TOO MANY TAXES, IS THE ONES WHO HAVE INTRODUCED SO MANY OF THESE NEW THINGS. THIS IS WHAT I THOUGHT TOO THIS WEEK, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE PARTY OF LOW TAXES, BUT NOW WE HAVE NEW AND REVOLVING TAXES, AND THE MONEY-GO-ROUND TO PROVIDE TAX CUTS. THEY ARE ALSO GOING TO RAID THE E.T.S., AND PUBLIC SERVICE CUTS. ON THE E.T.S., THAT REALLY DOES CONCERN ME, AND THIS IS... WE NEED TO HAVE ABSOLUTE UNANIMITY ACROSS PARLIAMENT ON THAT. NEW ZEALAND WILL FACE A LARGE OFFSHORE QUASI TAX BILL BECAUSE OF KYOTO ` BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T REDUCED OUR E.T.S. EMISSIONS TO THE TRACK THAT WE THOUGHT WE MIGHT. AND SO, IF YOU HAVE GOT A FUND THAT WAS MEANT TO BE USED TO ACCELERATE MAJOR INVESTMENT TO GET EMISSIONS DOWN, MAJOR TRANSFORMATIONAL MOVES THAT TAKE MONEY, TO ACTUALLY RAID THAT, AND THEN SAY THAT IT IS CORPORATE WELFARE TO USE THAT FUND TO ACCELERATE STUFF, I DON'T BUY THAT WHATSOEVER. I TOTALLY AGREE. TO CALL IT A CARBON TAX DIVIDEND IS DISHONEST. THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED ACROSS NEW ZEALAND, OR, LIKE FRAN SAYS, I WOULD HAVE MUCH PREFERRED IF IT WAS TARGETED TOWARDS ADAPTATION AND MEDICATION. THAT IS REALLY WHAT THIS MONEY SHOULD BE FOR ` TO STOP POLLUTION, BUT ALSO TO INVEST IN THE THINGS THAT WILL MAKE NEW ZEALAND GREENER. YEAH, I WANT TO TALK ALSO ABOUT THESE PUBLIC SERVICE CUTS. DO WE NEED MORE INFORMATION AND MORE TRANSPARENCY AROUND WHERE THESE WILL BE FOUND? IT IS ONE THING TO SAY THEY WILL FIND $600 MILLION ON TOP OF THE $500 MILLION THAT THE FINANCE MINISTER HAS JUST COME UP WITH, AND IT IS DIFFERENT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND HOW AND WHERE THOSE CUTS ARE COMING FROM, FRAN. WE DON'T HAVE MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT THAT, AND IT WILL HURT. IT WILL HURT THAT PART OF OUR POPULATION. ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS FIND WHICH I DON'T LIKE, IS WE TALK ABOUT TAKING A HEADCOUNT OUT. THESE ARE PEOPLE'S JOBS, COMING ON TO THE MARKET IN QUASI RECESSIONARY TIMES, INFLATION TIMES. EMPLOYERS ARE ALL LOOKING HARD AT WHO THEY TAKE ON BOARD. THERE ARE LOTS OF FREEZING HIRES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND WE ALSO SEE THE SAME WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CONSULTANTS, $400 MILLION OUT OF THAT. THAT WILL IMPACT ON THE BIG FOUR FIRMS. THERE WILL BE A COST TO THE PUBLIC IN TERMS OF OTHER EMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, THAT TYPE OF THING. IT IS NOT JUST 'TAKE THAT OUT'. THERE IS A COST ON THE OTHER SIDE AS WELL. NATIONAL ALWAYS SAYS THIS ` I REMEMBER UNDER JOHN KEY AND BILL ENGLISH, THEY SAID 'WE WILL REIN IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE SPENDING.' DO THEY ACHIEVE THAT, SHAMUBEEL, ONCE THEY'RE IN OFFICE? IT'S SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF CORE GOVERNMENT SPENDING, THE FIRST TERM, IT IS HARD TO GET IT DOWN. EVEN UNDER THE FIRST TERM OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT UNDER KEY, CORE GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE AS A SHARE OF GDP WENT SIDEWAYS. IT WAS ONLY IN THE SECOND AND THIRD TERM THEY OFTEN FIND SAVINGS, AND ARGUABLY, SOME OF THOSE WERE CUT TO THE BONE. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH HEALTH AND OTHER THINGS. THESE ARE NOT EASY THINGS TO DO, AND IN THE FIRST TERM, YOU MAY FIND THAT UNIONS AND CONTRACTS TRACKS ARE BLOODY GOOD. SO TRY FIRING THOSE PEOPLE. SO THEY MIGHT HAVE A FIGHT ON THEIR HANDS ` THEY WILL HAVE A FIGHT ON THEIR HANDS. I WANT TO FINISH WITH THE SAME QUESTION FOR YOU BOTH, BUT THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR NICOLA WILLIS PERSONALLY, AS WELL AS HER PARTY. BUT HAS SHE WON ECONOMIC CREDIBILITY, FRAN? WITH THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY SHE CERTAINLY HAS, AT THE TOP END OF TOWN, AND SHE'S DONE SO BY BEING QUITE ACIDULOUS, GETTING OUT AROUND THE BOARDROOMS AND TACKLING ISSUES BUSINESS WANTS TO TALK ABOUT. SHE HAS SOME WAY TO GO WITH THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE. PUTTING UP SOMETHING FUNDED BY OTHER BENEFITS TO THE BASE DOES RAISE A QUESTION MARK OVER THAT, BUT THEY ARE IN THE GAME, AND IT WILL BE A FIGHT. SHAMUBEEL, WHAT DID YOU THINK IN TERMS OF THIS BIG UNVEILING, WE'VE HAD A DANCE OF SEVEN VEILS FOR A WHILE NOW; WE FINALLY GOT TO SEE THE TAX POLICY. HOW HAS NICOLA WILLIS DELIVERED? I THINK SHE DELIVERED TO HER CORE BASE, BUT IF YOU LOOKED AT THE DETAILS OF HOW THEY GOT TO IT, I'D SAY IT HASN'T GIVEN THEM THE CREDIBILITY WITH EXPERTS BECAUSE THE NUMBERS DON'T ADD UP. AND I'M SURPRISED THAT THEY HAVEN'T SPENT MORE TIME AND A LOT MORE EFFORT TO BURNISH THEIR CREDENTIALS ON HOW CREDIBLE THEY ARE IN MANAGING THE ECONOMY. THEY WERE REALLY EXCITED, AND QUITE CONFIDENT AHEAD OF THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR ANALYSIS AND INSIGHT THIS MORNING, FRAN O'SULLIVAN AND SHAMUBEEL EAQUB. COMING UP ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL KRIS FAAFOI, DITA DE BONI AND TRISH SHERSON WILL DISSECT A HUGE WEEK IN POLITICS. AND WE GO IN SEARCH OF ANSWERS ABOUT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING ABOUT GLORIAVALE. WELCOME BACK. WELL, WE WERE DROWNING IN POLITICAL MOVES AND MACHINATIONS THIS WEEK. IT ALL BEGAN WHEN CHRIS HIPKINS RULED OUT WORKING WITH WINSTON PETERS ` ALBEIT A YEAR AFTER PETERS HAD RULED OUT WORKING WITH HIM. BUT IT SWUNG THE SPOTLIGHT ON TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON EARLIER THIS WEEK WHO LOOKED INCREASINGLY FRUSTRATED AND UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN ASKED IF NEW ZEALAND FIRST WAS A FUTURE COALITION PARTNER. HERE HE IS AT PARLIAMENT. WHAT I'M FOCUSED ON IS MAKING SURE WE DRIVE NATIONAL PARTY VOTE AS HIGH AS I POSSIBLY CAN. NO, I'M NOT EVEN GIVING HIM ANY THOUGHT. HE'S NOT IN PARLIAMENT, HE'S NOT ABOVE` WELL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT IT. I'M SAYING TO YOU VERY CLEARLY, HE'S NOT IN PARLIAMENT. HE'S NOT ABOVE THE THRESHOLDS. I'M FOCUSED ON THE NATIONAL PARTY. I'M THE LEADER OF THE NATIONAL PARTY, MAKING SURE I MAXIMISE THE NATIONAL PARTY VOTE. NO, OUR PARTY IS RUTHLESSLY FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE WE DELIVER FOR NEW ZEALANDERS AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'LL SEE TOMORROW WITH OUR TAX PLAN THAT'S HELPING THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE. I AM RUTHLESSLY FOCUSSED ON MAXIMISING VOTES FROM EVERYWHERE I CAN ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` FORMER LABOUR CABINET MINISTER NOW WORKING IN PR, KRIS FAAFOI, SENIOR NBR JOURNALIST DITA DE BONI AND TRISH SHERSON OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS FIRM SHERSON WILLIS. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. WHAT A BIG WEEK TO KICK OFF THIS CAMPAIGN. I WANT TO START ON CHRISTOPHER LUXON THERE. THIS IS A QUESTION HE WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR VOTERS, ISN'T IT? WILL HE OR WON'T HE WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST, KRIS? HE REMINDED ME A LOT OF WINSTON THERE, ACTUALLY, TRYING TO GET AROUND THE ISSUE WITHOUT ANSWERING THE QUESTION OF WHO HE WOULD GO INTO COALITION WITH. IT WILL DOG HIM, WHETHER OR NOT WINSTON IS THERE. BUT BY NOT RULING WINSTON PETERS OUT, IS HE RULING HIM IN, TRISH? YOU CAN SEE THERE HOW UNCOMFORTABLE IT IS TRYING TO SIT ON A PICKET FENCE. IT IS NOT A PLEASANT SPACE TO BE. I DON'T KNOW WHY LUXON IS DOING THIS DANCE. FROM WHAT I HEAR, PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING FOR NATIONAL THIS TIME, THEY WANT A NATIONAL AND ACT COALITION. IT'S CLEAN, IT'S SIMPLE. THEY ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT WINSTON AS A PLAN B, AND I THINK IT'S A LEADERSHIP MOMENT FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON. DOES IT GIVE HIM A NEGOTIATING` SOME LEVERAGE WHEN NEGOTIATING, DITA, IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO MAYBE SAY TO ACT, 'WE WILL GO WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND PUT YOU ON THE CROSSBENCHES'? HE IS NEVER GOING TO DO THAT. HE IS NEVER GOING TO DO THAT. I DON'T THINK HE HAS MUCH LEVERAGE AT ALL. HE'S GOT NO OPTION. HE CLEARLY DOESN'T WANT TO WORK WITH WINSTON PETERS, AND THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE AND SENSIBLE. I THINK AS TRISH SAYS, HE SHOULD REALLY JUST SAY THAT. I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT WOULD RESOLVE ITSELF IN THE ELECTION, BECAUSE MAYBE WINSTON PETERS WILL HAVE A DECIDING, CASTING POSITION, BUT HE DOES HAVE TO MAKE A STATEMENT, I THINK. LET THE VOTERS KNOW! (LAUGHTER) LET'S MOVE ON TO THE BIG INTERVIEW IN OUR SHOW TODAY, WHICH WAS CHRIS HIPKINS. HOW DID HE LOOK TO YOU GUYS? TRISH? THE INTERVIEW DEMONSTRATED TO ME THE TWO ISSUES HIPKINS HAS GOT. WHEN JACINDA ARDERN LEFT SAYING SHE DON'T HAVE ANY GAS LEFT IN THE TANK, I THINK THAT IS HOW NEW ZEALANDERS ARE FEELING AS WELL IN TERMS OF THIS GOVERNMENT. YOU SAW WITH THAT INTERVIEW, THE MAJORITY OF THAT TIME WAS SPENT ON NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING FROM LABOUR AND ON THE BACK FOOT ABOUT LACK OF DELIVERY THROUGH THIS TIME. THOSE ARE BIG HURDLES FOR CHRIS HIPKINS TO GET OVER. I AM NOT SURE HE HAS GOT AROUND WHAT HIS FORWARD MOMENTUM MESSAGE IS, BUT A QUICK CALCULATION ALSO AROUND THE CHALLENGE FOR LABOUR ` NATIONAL AND ACT TOGETHER HAVE ABOUT $12.5 MILLION IN DONATIONS THIS ELECTION TO CAMPAIGN ON. LABOUR HAS $1.1 MILLION, AND THE GREENS $1.4 MILLION. MONEY IS AN ABSOLUTE METRIC OF MOMENTUM IN CAMPAIGNING, SO IT IS A GOOD LITMUS TEST FOR HOW BEHIND LABOUR ARE. THEY AREN'T GOING INTO THE CAMPAIGN WITH THE MOMENTUM THEY WANTED, KRIS, AND CHRIS HIPKINS HAS HAD A TUMULTUOUS YEAR, HE WILL POINT TO THAT. BUT IS LABOUR'S TRACK RECORD GOING TO REMAIN IN THE MINDS OF VOTERS, DO YOU THINK, AS THEY HEAD TOWARDS THE POLLS? I WOULD VERY MUCH SAY I WOULDN'T WISH THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS ON ANY PRIME MINISTER. HE HAS HAD TO DEAL WITH ISSUE AFTER ISSUE. WE HAVE SEEN THAT BEING REFLECTED IN THE POLLS. AS TRISH SAID, HE HAS HAD TO COME ON TO THIS SHOW AND HE'LL START THE CAMPAIGN LATER THIS AFTERNOON HAVING TO TALK ABOUT THE LAST SIX YEARS. I THINK HE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT, AND HE GOT TOWARDS THIS AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW, ABOUT WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE WANTS TO DO. TALKING ABOUT THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS WON'T BE FUN FOR HIM. TURNING THAT MESSAGE AROUND REALLY FAST, GETTING SOME MOMENTUM BACK, WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR HIM. THIS CAMPAIGN, IT IS EASY TO FORGET THAT THIS IS HIS FIRST CAMPAIGN AS PRIME MINISTER. IT IS DIFFERENT THAN GOING IN TO FIGHT A CAMPAIGN AS A SENIOR MEMBER, OR KITCHEN CABINET MEMBER. IT'S A BIG CHALLENGE. ABSOLUTELY. HE ALSO HAS THAT LEGACY OF TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE. THAT QUESTION WAS QUITE APT, I THINK. HE IS TRYING TO REIN IT IN, BUT AS A LABOUR POLITICIAN, HE WILL HAVE AN IDEA OF TRANSFORMATIONAL CHANGE, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT LABOUR POLITICIANS DO. THEY PROMISE BIG, AND DON'T ALWAYS DELIVER. NATIONAL ARE A BIT SMARTER THAT WAY. THEY DON'T PROMISE AS MUCH, THEREFORE, THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE DELIVERING MUCH EASIER. GIVEN THE DISPARITY IN THE MONEY GOING TO EACH PARTY, IT IS A WONDER, IT IS QUITE SURPRISING, THAT ACTUALLY, THOSE BLOCKS ARE LEVEL PEGGING, DESPITE THE MONEY. WE ALSO HAVE ANOTHER UNTESTED OPPONENT, ELECTORALLY UNTESTED OPPONENT. CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS NEVER FOUGHT A GENERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN IN ANY SEAT, TRISH. WE TEND TO FORGET THAT WITH LUXON. NOT ONLY IS A FIRST-TERM MP, HE'S A FIRST-TERM LEADER, AND NOW A FIRST-TERM LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION GOING FOR PRIME MINISTER. THE NEXT FEW WEEKS WILL BE PARTICULARLY TELLING FOR HIM, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THAT THE CHALLENGE FOR HIM IS ON THE STUMP AND ON THE HOOF, AND NOT JUST SAYING THE SAME MESSAGES OVER AND OVER, BUT BEING ABLE TO GO A BIT DEEPER INTO DETAIL. THAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE THE MATCHUP BETWEEN THE CHRISES. MY WORRY WITH THIS ELECTION IS TWOFOLD. ONE IS I THINK THE BIG THING EVERYONE IS UP AGAINST, THERE IS NOT A LOT OF GAS IN THE TANK FOR VOTERS. THEY ARE A BIT OVER THE WHOLE THING, SO HOW THE TWO CHRISES WILL BE ABLE TO GEE THE VOTERS UP. AND THE BIG QUESTION RICHARD PREBBLE PUT IN HIS COLUMN THIS WEEK, IS HOW VOTER APATHY WILL OR WON'T BE THE KINGMAKER THIS ELECTION. I THINK THAT IS A BIG QUESTION. WILL PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER TURNING OUT? YEAH, WILL THEY STAY HOME? WE SAW THAT IN THE AUCKLAND MAYORAL ELECTION, PARTICULARLY IN SOUTH AUCKLAND, KRIS, WHICH MUST BE A BIG CONCERN FOR THE LABOUR PARTY, GETTING THAT MACHINE UP AND RUNNING, AND GETTING PEOPLE OUT TO VOTE. THE MACHINE WILL WORK. IT DOES AT EVERY ELECTION CAMPAIGN. WHAT IT'S WORTH ` 1 TO 2% ON THE DAY ` MIGHT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. BUT I DO THINK WITH COST OF LIVING BEING IN EVERY HOUSEHOLD, APATHY MIGHT BE THERE, BUT DEPENDING ON HOW THEY STIMULATE VOTERS, I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO SEE SOMETHING THAT WILL ACTUALLY HELP THEM IN EVERYDAY LIFE. SO, I THINK PEOPLE WILL GET OUT TO VOTE BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CONTEST OF IDEAS ON TAX CUTS AND FUNDING PUBLIC SERVICES. SO I THINK PEOPLE WILL DO THE MATHS AND GET OUT AND VOTE. LET'S TALK ABOUT COST OF LIVING AND NAT'S TAX POLICY THIS WEEK. NATIONAL WAS SUPREMELY CONFIDENT. THEY WERE FIZZING, ACTUALLY, THE DAY LEADING UP TO THEIR ANNOUNCEMENT, BUT HAVE THEY DELIVERED, DO YOU THINK, TRISH? THEY TOOK THE MOMENTUM THIS WEEK AND GOT THE HEADLINES THEY WANTED. IT IS AN INTERESTING THING THAT PEOPLE WANT THE BABY NOT THE LABOUR PAINS. WE ARE DISSECTING THE IMPACT OF FOREIGN BUYERS, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. FOR MOST PEOPLE, THAT WILL GO OVER THEIR HEADS. THEY WILL HAVE LOOKED AT THE PICTURES ALMOST WITH THE SOUND DOWN THIS WEEK. I LOOKED YESTERDAY AT TWO COMPETING INSTAGRAM POSTS, ONE FROM NATIONAL. THERE IS LUXON, CUP OF COFFEE, TALKING YOU THROUGH HIS TAX CUT PLAN. ON THE OTHER CHANNEL WAS LABOUR WITH GRANT ROBERTSON, EYEBROWS HIGH, IN HIGH DEFENCE MODE, VOICE UP A COUPLE OF OCTAVES. TO ME, THAT IS QUITE ILLUSTRATIVE OF HOW THE WEEK HAS ROUNDED OUT FOR BOTH PARTIES. DIFFERENT PRESSURES AND RESPONSIBILITIES ON BOTH OF THEM, BUT WHEN PEOPLE LOOK CLOSELY, IF THEY LOOK CLOSELY, AT THOSE TAX CUTS, HOW DO YOU THINK THEY WILL` WILL IT BE ENOUGH TO SWING VOTERS, DITA? NOT IF THEY'RE LOOKING CLOSELY, AND THE CLUE IS IN THAT THEY'RE ALWAYS PRESENTED AS A FORTNIGHTLY FIGURE, WHICH SHOWS YOU THERE IS NOTHING MUCH TO GIVE, AND THEY ARE GIVING VERY LITTLE. THEY ARE GIVING IT TO PEOPLE WHO ARGUABLY COULD GET IT MORE EFFECTIVELY IN OTHER WAYS. I THINK IT IS VERY CYNICAL, AND MAYBE LABOUR IS ON THE BACK FOOT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AT POLITICKING AND CAMPAIGNING. THEY ARE JUST NOT. A FINAL QUESTION ON THIS IS THAT NATIONAL HAVE TALKED ABOUT BRACKET CREEP, AND THIS IS HOW THEY DELIVERED THEIR TAX CUTS, BUT IS THAT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE LEGISLATED FOR? IN THE U.S., FOR EXAMPLE, IT IS LEGISLATED THAT THE TREASURY ADJUSTS BRACKETS FOR INFLATION. IT IS TAKEN OUT OF THE POLITICAL ARENA, KRIS. HELEN CLARK TRIED TO DO IT PREVIOUSLY. IS THAT A BETTER WAY TO GO? YES, I THINK A LOT OF AREAS WHERE YOU CAN` YOU CAN SEE WHERE SOME BIPARTISANSHIP ON SOME OF THOSE BIGGER PICTURE STRUCTURAL ISSUES WOULD BE BEING BETTER OFF IN THE LONG RUN. YOU CAN END UP ARGUING AROUND THE MARGINS. I DO THINK THEY GOT THEIR RETAIL MESSAGE ACROSS THIS WEEK. SHAMUBEEL USED SOME FRUITY ECONOMIC LANGUAGE EARLIER. WAS THAT ECONOMIC LANGUAGE? I DON'T KNOW (!) I'LL ASK HIM. (LAUGHTER) THE ISSUE FOR THEM IS IF THE CREDIBILITY AROUND PAYING FOR THOSE STARTS TO BE QUESTIONED FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, THEN THE CREDIBILITY OF THE TAX CUT PACKAGE IS AN ISSUE FOR THEM, AND THAT IS THE LAST PLACE THEY WANT TO BE IN. TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT INDEXATION, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PRINCIPLED AND CLEAN WAY TO DO THIS. THE PROBLEM IS PEOPLE ARE BEING PUSHED TO PAY MORE TAX. THE GOVERNMENT'S TAX TAKE HAS BEEN UP BECAUSE OF THAT, BECAUSE OF BRACKET CREEP. THAT WOULD BE THE CLEAN WAY TO DO IT, AND BENEFITS ARE INDEXED TO INFLATION AND OTHER PAYMENTS. SO, IF NATIONAL REALLY WANTED TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, IN MY VIEW, THAT IS WHAT YOU WOULD DO. OK, I WANT TO FINISH WITH` WE HAVE HAD SOME` THERE HAS BEEN A COUPLE OF STRANGE MOMENTS THIS WEEK. WE KNOW IT WILL BE A STRANGE CAMPAIGN. WE HAVE A PICTURE OF THE MOMENT I WILL TALK ABOUT, WHICH IS CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S MEDIA CONFERENCE BEING HIJACKED BY A HECKLER. YES, THERE HE IS, THE MAN UP ON THE FENCE THERE. HE'S FROM VISIONS NZ. AND LITTLE HANDS ARE TRYING TO GET HIM DOWN FROM BEHIND THERE. BUT WHAT DOES THIS TELL US, THAT IT WILL BE A DISRUPTIVE CAMPAIGN, DITA? IT IS GOING TO BE DISRUPTIVE. I THINK IT WAS UNACCEPTABLE THAT THAT MAN DID THAT, AND I FELT SORRY FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON. HOWEVER, IT DOES POINT UP THE FACT THAT HE'S NOT VERY GOOD AT THINKING ON HIS FEET. I THINK THE DEBATES WILL BE INTERESTING, IN THAT WAY BECAUSE WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT CHRISTOPHER HIPKINS, HE DOES THINK ON HIS FEET WELL. SO THIS COULD BE QUITE AN INTERESTING DEBATE. I WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT ALL OF THIS, BUT WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME, AS USUAL. IT HAS GONE WAY TOO QUICKLY, BUT KRIS FAAFOI, DITA DE BONI AND TRISH SHERSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION. E WHAI AKE NEI ` IT WAS ANOTHER WEEK; THERE WAS ANOTHER GLORIAVALE SENTENCE. SO WE WENT TO PARLIAMENT TO ASK ` ARE THE 350 CHILDREN BORN INTO THIS COMMUNITY SAFE? THAT IS COMING UP NEXT, PLUS ` FINN HOGAN HAS ALL THE FIERY HIGHLIGHTS OF THE FINAL SITTING WEEK IN PARLIAMENT. LAST WEEK WE ASKED THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER WHETHER THE 350 CHILDREN IN GLORIAVALE WERE SAFE. WE WANTED TO KNOW IF THEY WERE STILL BEING EXPLOITED FOR CHILD LABOUR AS TWO COURT CASES HAVE NOW FOUND. THIS WEEK, ANOTHER GLORIAVALE MAN WAS SENTENCED IN CHRISTCHURCH FOR HISTORIC VIOLENCE AND INDECENT ASSAULT CHARGES. PETER TRUST FORCED YOUNG GIRLS TO STRIP NAKED, POSE SEXUALLY FOR PHOTOGRAPHS, AND HE BEAT THEM WITH A FENCE PIPE. GLORIAVALE'S LEADER HOWARD TEMPLE IS ALSO CURRENTLY FACING HISTORIC SEX CHARGES WHICH HE DENIES. SO, AFTER ALL OF THIS, WE WENT TO PARLIAMENT TO FIND OUT WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THE CHILDREN AT GLORIAVALE. ON GLORIAVALE, CAN YOU GIVE US AN UPDATE ON THE MULTI-AGENCY RESPONSE BY THE GOVERNMENT? WHAT IS HAPPENING DOWN THERE RIGHT NOW? WELL, IT'S A TRICKY AREA BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE SOME COURT PROCEEDINGS ONGOING, AND I DON'T WANT TO INTERFERE IN THAT. BUT WHERE THE COURTS HAVE MADE DECISIONS, WE'VE GOT A MULTI-AGENCY TEAM WHICH IS BEING SUPERVISED BY A GROUP OF MINISTERS WHO ARE MAKING SURE THAT THE FINDINGS OF THE COURT ARE ACTUALLY BEING IMPLEMENTED BY GLORIAVALE. SO, ARE CHILDREN ARE BEING EXPLOITED FOR CHILD LABOUR DOWN THERE NOW? WELL, THE VARIOUS MINISTRIES WHO ARE WORKING WITH GLORIAVALE WILL BE WORKING TO ENSURE THAT THE RULINGS OF THE COURT ARE ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED. BUT THAT SHOULD BE` IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE FOR A CHILD, FOR CHILDREN TO BE EXPLOITED IN THE WAY THAT THE COURT HAS FOUND THAT THEY HAVE BEEN. AND SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE COURT'S RULINGS ARE ACTUALLY BEING ENFORCED. SO, A YEAR LATER, FROM THAT COURT'S RULING, WHY CAN'T YOU STAND UP THERE AND TELL US THAT CHILDREN ARE NOT BEING EXPLOITED FOR CHILD LABOUR? LIKE I SAID, THE AGENCIES THAT WE'VE GOT GOING IN THERE, I HAVEN'T GOT THE MOST RECENT UPDATE FROM THEM, BUT THE AGENCIES THAT WE'VE GOT WORKING ON THAT ISSUE HAVE BEEN MAKING SURE THAT THE COURT'S RULINGS ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED. BUT YOU CAN'T` YOU KNOW, CAN YOU TELL ME THAT CHILDREN ARE NOT BEING EXPLOITED RIGHT NOW? WELL, I PERSONALLY HAVEN'T GONE TO CHECK, BUT CERTAINLY THE AGENCIES RESPONSIBLE ARE TASKED WITH THAT JOB. WE'VE GOT A CROSS-GOVERNMENT RESPONSE THAT IS BEING LED BY THE REGIONAL PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER DOWN THERE TO ENSURE THAT THERE'S WORK THAT IS HAPPENING ALONGSIDE THE LEADERSHIP. SO ARE THOSE THINGS HAPPENING OR... ARE THOSE THINGS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW? DO YOU KNOW THAT GLORIAVALE IS NO LONGER EXPLOITING CHILDREN, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH CHILD LABOUR? THERE'S A FAIR BIT OF WORK WITH VARIOUS GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, INCLUDING ORANGA TAMARIKI THERE TO ENSURE THAT IT ISN'T HAPPENING. AND MY` THE REPORTS THAT I'VE SEEN IS THAT THEY ARE WORKING CONSTRUCTIVELY WITH GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS. AND HOW CAN YOU TRUST, I SUPPOSE, WHAT IS GOING ON WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY GIVEN ITS LONG HISTORY OF WHAT WE NOW KNOW IS CHILD LABOUR AND EXPLOITATION AND POSSIBLY ABUSE? BECAUSE AS I SAID, WE'VE GOT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT AGENCIES WHO ARE AND HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THEM FOR NOW OVER A YEAR TO ENSURE THAT SOME OF THOSE BOTTOM LINES ARE MET. AND BY ALL ACCOUNTS THAT I RECEIVE, I RECEIVE SIX WEEKLY REPORTS FROM THE REGIONAL PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONER AND I CAN SEE THAT THERE IS A WILL TO CHANGE FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD. BUT HAVE THEY CHANGED? IT'S A PROCESS, AND THAT IS WHAT I'M SEEING. IT'S TAKEN ALREADY A YEAR. THIS IS CHILD LABOUR EXPLOITATION ABUSE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. AS I'VE SAID AS WELL, THERE ARE EMPLOYMENT COURT RULINGS. THERE'S THE LATEST RULING THAT SHOWS THAT THE WOMEN WHO TOOK THE CASE WERE NOT VOLUNTEERS, THEY ARE EMPLOYEES. WE ARE WAITING FOR THE OTHER PART OF THAT RULING AS WELL IN TERMS OF WHO THEN IS THE EMPLOYER. BUT AS I MENTIONED, THERE IS A FAIR BIT OF WORK. THERE ARE THERE ARE SUPPORT SERVICES THERE IN PLACE AS WELL FOR ANYONE WHO DOES REPORT ABUSE TO BE ABLE TO BE DEALT WITH. YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THAT THIS IS A COMMUNITY... BUILT ON POWER AND CONTROL. AND FOR PEOPLE TO REPORT ABUSE FROM WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY IS EXTREMELY RARE. IT'S ONLY WHEN THEY USUALLY GET OUT. SO I SUPPOSE WHAT I'M ASKING YOU IS CAN YOU GUARANTEE NEW ZEALANDERS THAT THE 350 CHILDREN WHO ARE IN GLORIAVALE RIGHT NOW ARE SAFE? WE ARE ABSOLUTELY WORKING ON THAT. BUT THAT'S NOT A GUARANTEE. I'VE GOT TO GO TO CAUCUS. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT GLORIAVALE AND ORANGA TAMARIKI'S INVOLVEMENT THERE. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT'S HAPPENING DOWN AT GLORIAVALE IN YOUR PORTFOLIOS? WELL, ORANGA TAMARIKI HAS BEEN WORKING QUITE CLOSELY ON THE SITUATION. OBVIOUSLY THE SAFETY OF THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE IS MOST IMPORTANT. THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON, AND THE SITUATION CHANGES WHEN` YOU KNOW... RECENTLY THAT ONE OF THE LEADERS THERE WAS OUTED. AND ACCUSED OF SEX CRIMES. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. SO ORANGA TAMARIKI IS AGAIN SUPPORTING, MAKING SURE THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE THE SUPPORT THEY NEED. AND HOW IS IT DOING THAT? WELL, IT'S ENGAGING QUITE CLOSELY. THERE'S SOMEBODY DOWN THERE ON THE WEST COAST THAT IS GOING IN THERE, WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITY, ENGAGING WITH THEM, MAKING SURE THAT SOCIAL WORKERS ARE IN THERE, TALKING TO THEM. SO IT'S QUITE A COMPREHENSIVE RESPONSE. DO YOU SORT OF GET THAT FOR MOST NEW ZEALANDERS, HEARING THAT THERE ARE 350 CHILDREN BEING EXPLOITED IN A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY, ALSO POTENTIALLY SUBJECT TO SEX ABUSE, IS JUST AN OUTRAGE? WELL, YEAH, BUT IT'S A COMMUNITY, AND HOW DO YOU SHUT DOWN A COMMUNITY? YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE AGENCIES ARE THERE DOING THE JOB THEY NEED TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE CHILDREN ARE PROTECTED. AND ARE YOU SURE THAT THEY'RE PROTECTED? WELL, THERE HAS BEEN COMPREHENSIVE SUPPORT GOING IN THERE, YES. SO YOU ARE SURE THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED AND SAFE? YEAH` IT WAS ONLY A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO THAT WE HAD OUR LATEST UPDATE. WE'VE BEEN MEETING REGULARLY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE WEST COAST, WORKING IN THE GLORIAVALE COMMUNITIES. BUT THE PRIME MINISTER CAN'T SAY THEY'RE SAFE, NOT BEING EXPLOITED; PRIYANKA RADHAKRISHNAN CAN'T SAY THEY'RE SAFE AND NOT BEING EXPLOITED AND IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOU CAN SAY THAT THEY'RE SAFE AND NOT BEING EXPLOITED. WELL, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS PUTTING IN THE SUPPORT, MAKING SURE THAT THOSE CHILDREN ARE BEING PROTECTED, THEY HAVE SOME SOMEONE TO GO TO, THAT ORANGA TAMARIKI IS THERE AND IS THERE REGULARLY TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR NEEDS ARE BEING LOOKED AFTER. IS IT JUST TOO BIG AND IT'S GONE ON FOR TOO LONG NOW TO GET CONTROL OF AND TO SHUT IT DOWN? NO, I DON'T THINK` WELL, IT'S A COMMUNITY. HOW DO YOU SHUT DOWN A COMMUNITY? IT'S LIKE GOING INTO A SMALL TOWN AND SAYING, 'WE'RE GOING TO SHUT DOWN THE SMALL TOWN.' YOU CAN'T. BUT WHAT WE CAN DO IS HOLD THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PERPETRATORS TO ACCOUNT AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS THE SUPPORT IN THERE, BOTH FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE, THE CHILDREN AND ALSO OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE AFFECTED BY WHAT'S GOING ON. IT IS A COMPLEX SITUATION. BUT GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, NOT JUST ORANGA TAMARIKI, OTHER AGENCIES, ARE IN THERE AS WELL SUPPORTING THE COMMUNITY. IT LOOKS LIKE A MULTI-GENERATIONAL SYSTEMIC FAILURE. WELL, LOOK, AGAIN, THIS IS A COMMUNITY. AND, LIKE, WE CAN'T JUST SHUT DOWN A COMMUNITY, BUT WE CAN GO IN AND HOLD THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PERPETRATORS TO ACCOUNT AND WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE THERE ARE GETTING SUPPORT THEY NEED. KELVIN DAVIS THERE, AND ON THURSDAY, GLORIAVALE APPEALED THE EMPLOYMENT COURT RULING THAT FOUND THE GIRLS WERE EMPLOYEES AND NOT VOLUNTEERS. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELL, IT WAS A LIVELY FINAL SITTING WEEK IN THE CHAMBER ` MPs MAKING THE MOST OF THEIR CHANCE TO GET THEIR BEST BURNS IMMORTALISED IN THE HANSARD. I PARTICULARLY ENJOYED THE EMERGENCE OF AN IMAGINARY AMATEUR DRAMATICS CLUB IN JOHNSONVILLE BEING FROM THERE MYSELF. HERE IS FINN HOGAN WITH ALL OF THE FIREWORKS. WE'RE FINALLY HERE ` LAST WEEK IN THE HOUSE. BY GOLLY. DON'T MAKE ME SEND YOU OUT ON THE LAST DAY. NO MORE CHANCES. IT WAS THE PRIME MINISTER'S LAST CHANCE TO STRUT HIS STUFF, TRADING BARBS WITH THE CHRIS WHO SEEKS TO SUPPLANT HIM. MR SPEAKER, THE MOST SURPRISING THING ABOUT THAT QUESTION WAS THAT NICOLA WILLIS'S LIPS DIDN'T MOVE WHILE HE WAS ASKING IT. BUT IT WAS ROBERTSON VERSUS WILLIS STEALING THE SHOW... ...SO WE COULD LISTEN TO 'TRICOLA WILLIS' OR WE COULD LISTEN TO FITCH. HE'S CAMPAIGNING FOR A PRIME MINISTER WHO KILLED THE ONE THING HE DID BELIEVE IN ` THE WEALTH TAX. MR SPEAKER, THE JOHNSONVILLE AMATEUR DRAMATICS SOCIETY ARE REALLY MISSING OUT ON THE MEMBERS AT WORK TODAY. ...AND EVEN PLANNING TO PUT ON THEIR OWN. ONCE THE DUST IS CLEARED AND THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN IS OVER, JOIN ME AS THE FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE JOHNSONVILLE AMATEUR DRAMATICS SOCIETY. EVEN THE GREENS WERE ON THE ATTACK WITH THIS NERD BURN FROM SHAW. AND NOW WINSTON PETERS IS CALLING AND HE WANTS HIS HORCRUX BACK BECAUSE THAT BLACKENED SHARD OF A SOUL CAN ONLY ANIMATE THE BODY OF ONE POPULIST AUTHORITARIAN AT ONCE. IT'S BEEN A LONG POLITICAL YEAR, AND IT CERTAINLY AIN'T OVER. I THINK WE ALL SHARE THE SPEAKER'S SENTIMENT WHEN HE SAYS... KORORIA, HARERUIA. THAT CONCLUDES ORAL QUESTIONS... FOR THE 53RD PARLIAMENT. (APPLAUSE) SO GOOD. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, TENA TATAU KATOA. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND KITTY WASASALA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023.