CAPTIONS BY KRISTIN WILLIAMS AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. THIS MORNING. IS DAVID SEYMOUR ABOUT TO LEAD ACT TO ITS BEST EVER ELECTION RESULT? AUCKLAND MAYOR WAYNE BROWN IS WITH US LIVE WITH HIS BIG PITCH FOR AUCKLAND IN NEXT MONTH'S ELECTION. AND WE'RE IN HUTT SOUTH WHERE TWO HIGH-PROFILE MPs ARE DUKING IT OUT IN ONE OF THE ELECTION'S TIGHTEST CONTESTS. HE'S QUITE VISABLE. CHRIS BISHOP? YES. I'D IMAGINE THAT GINNY MIGHT BE LOOKING FOR A NEW JOB SHORTLY. I REALLY HOPE THAT GINNY STAYS. IF POLLING TRENDS ARE TO BELIEVED, ACT IS ON TRACK TO RECORD ITS HIGHEST NUMBER OF MPS IN HISTORY. LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR HAS BEEN EXPLICIT ` HE WON'T BE CONTENT WITH MERE SCRAPS FROM THE TABLE. IF HIS PARTY IS TO PLAY A MAJOR SUPPORT ROLE IN THE NEXT GOVERNMENT, THEY EXPECT BIG POLICY CONCESSIONS. THE PARTY OFFICIALLY LAUNCHES ITS CAMPAIGN TODAY. DAVID SEYMOUR, MORENA. GOOD MORNING. I THOUGHT WE SHOULD START OFF WITH A BIG PART OF POLICY AREAS. THE FIRST IS WELFARE. AND YOUR WELFARE POLICY, DRUG ADDICT WILL FACE THE PROSPECT OF LOSING THEIR BENEFIT IF THEY REFUSE TREATMENT OR DON'T MAKE EFFORTS TO FIND WORK. WHAT YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE? AT THE MOMENT THERE ARE ABOUT 4000 PEOPLE WHO ARE LONG-TERM DEPENDENT BECAUSE OF ADDICTION. PEOPLE SAY THERE'S NOT A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COMPARED TO 5 MILLION, BUT IT COSTS $76 MILLION A YEAR. THE BIGGER COST IS ACTUALLY TO THOSE PEOPLE. I THINK THERE IS A MORAL QUESTION ` SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT CONTINUE TO PAY PEOPLE TO STAY HOME WITH ADDICTION PROBLEMS ARE NOT BE PREPARED TO GIVE TOUGH LOVE AND SAY, IF YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO MAKE AN EFFORT, THEN MAYBE MORALLY WE SHOULDN'T CONTINUE TO PAY YOU TO BE ON THIS COURSE. WE WANT A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THE VALUES AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY AND MUTUAL OBLIGATION INTO WELFARE. I THINK THAT IS LONG OVERDUE IN NEW ZEALAND ESPECIALLY AFTER THE LAST SIX YEARS. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO A DRUG ADDICT WHO LOSES THE BENEFIT? THEY WILL HAVE TO START LOOKING AT WHAT OTHER OPTIONS ARE. I SUSPECT THAT SOMEWHERE, SOMEONE WILL SAY TO THEM, RIGHT, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT COURSE OR MAKE MORE OF AN EFFORT BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS THAT IF THEY CONTINUE TO BE PAID TO STAY ADDICTED, THEY MAY BE EVEN WORSE OFF THAN YOU IMAGINE IF THEY WERE TO LOSE THEIR BENEFIT. DRUG ADDICTS MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS? BY DEFINITION THEY ARE NOT MAKING A RATIONAL DECISION. WHY WOULD THEY THEN CHOOSE TO FOLLOW A RATIONAL OUTCOME BY FOLLOWING AN ADDICTION REHAB COURSE? THE QUESTION IS WHY THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD CONTINUE TO PAY SOMEONE TO ENGAGE IN SELF DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOUR. THEY ARE IN A DIFFICULT BIND WHATEVER HAPPENS. THE GOVERNMENT's ROLE IS TO ACTUALLY USE PROPER LOGIC AND MORALS, NOT TO PAY SOMEONE TO CONTINUE TO SELF-DESTRUCT. LET'S IMAGINE WHAT HAPPENS. IF THEIR BENEFIT IS CUT AND THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY COMING IN WHATSOEVER, WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THEY WILL TURN TO CRIME TO FUND THEIR ADDICTION? CHANCES ARE THAT THE BENEFIT WILL NOT FUND YOUR ADDICTION ANYWAY. THE SIMPLE QUESTION HERE IS THAT THEY HAVE A LOT GOING ON IN THEIR MIND. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE TAXPAYER SHOULD CONTINUE TO PAY IT? THE TAXPAYER WILL GET IN CONTACT WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. POTENTIALLY. CHANCES ARE THEY ARE ALREADY RELYING ON THOSE ANYWAY. THE SIMPLE QUESTION IS ` IS IT RIGHT TO KEEP GIVING SOMEONE MONEY TO ENGAGE IN SELF-destructive BEHAVIOUR IF THEY ARE NOT PREPARED TO MAKE A CHANGE? YOU ARE RIGHT. THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL MAKE A RATIONAL DECISION TO DO BED THINGS AND THE COST THE JUSTICE SYSTEM ANYWAY. BUT MY QUESTION IS REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO, DOES EVERYONE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO GIVE YOU MONEY? I WOULD SAY THE ANSWER IS NO. THERE ARE ALSO OUTCOMES. THEY WILL HAPPEN WHETHER YOU PAY THEM OR ANYWAY. I THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD TAKE THE RIGHT MORAL STANCE. YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT FRAUD. HOW MUCH IS BENEFIT FRAUD COSTING NEW ZEALAND? I DON'T HAVE THE FIGURE RIGHT NOW, BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ON BENEFIT SAYING THEY ARE INCAPACITATED. THERE ARE ANOTHER 4000 SAYING THAT THEY CANNOT WORK BECAUSE THEY ARE STRESSED. 70% OF THOSE PEOPLE SAY THEY CAN'T WORK BECAUSE THEY ARE STRESSED AND HAVE BEEN STRESSFUL FIVE YEARS ON A BENEFIT. FOR THOUSAND PEOPLE ` AGAIN THAT'S ABOUT $75 MILLION. SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE COULD NOT BE STRESSED AND IF THEY GOT THE PROPER SUPPORT AND MIGHT NEED SOME OBLIGATION AND PRESSURE, THEN SUDDENLY YOU ARE SAVING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR. ACTUALLY, FOR THOSE PEOPLE, YOU ARE GETTING THE BACK ON A PATH WHERE YOU ACHIEVE THINGS DAY BY DAY AND BUILD SELF-ESTEEM. AGAIN, YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT HOW MUCH THIS WILL COST. THE TRUTH IS WE DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW PEOPLE WILL BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY IF YOU CHANGE THE RULES. IS IT RESPONSIBLE POLICY-MAKING THERE? WITH ERIC'S CASE, I WOULD SAY IF YOU MAKE THE RIGHT MORAL CALLED THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE PAYING PEOPLE TO ENGAGE IN BED HABITS. IT SHOULDN'T BE ABANDONING PEOPLE WITH SIGNIFICANT HEALTH ISSUES, WHICH IS ANOTHER MORAL LENS THROUGH WHICH TO PASS THE SITUATION. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO ULTIMATELY ABANDON THEM, BUT AT THE MOMENT, IT SEEMS THAT WE ARE HAPPY TO CONTINUE TO PAY PEOPLE TO STAY AND MAKE NO EFFORT AT ALL TO IMPROVE. THAT IS OKAY. I WOULD SAY MOST PEOPLE WATCHING WILL SEE THAT NEW ZEALAND IS IS IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION ECONOMICALLY AND BORROWING MONEY HAND OVER FIST. PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES MORAL CALLS AS WELL. SOME BENEFIT CASES WERE INVESTIGATED IN THE PAST. ONLY 33 ENDED UP ON CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS. THE TOTAL OVERPAYMENT TODAY WAS $2.3 MILLION. IT TOOK $50 MILLION TO INVESTIGATE THAT. THERE IS ABOUT A 5% RETURN ON TAXPAYER MONEY. IS THAT FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE? I THINK YOU HAVE TO AS THE QUESTION WHAT IS THE COUNTERFACTUAL? IF YOU WERE NOT TO HAVE THOSE INVESTIGATIONS, AND IF MSD SAID, JUST HAVE AT IT` THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT. YOUR POLICY IS ABOUT MONEY. THE MONEY SPENT TO INVESTIGATE BROUGHT BACK TO $0.3 MILLION. IF WE WEREN'T DOING THIS INVESTIGATION AND IF THERE WASN'T THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU WILL BE INVESTIGATED FOR BENEFIT FRAUD, YOU MIGHT FIND THAT A GREATER NUMBER OF PEOPLE MIGHT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM. IN THE LONG TERM, THERE COULD COST THE TAXPAYER MORE, BUT IT IS ABOUT THE MORALS AND THE ETHICS OF IT ALL. IF THE GOVERNMENT's VIEW IS THAT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TO WORK HARD AND GET UP EVERY MORNING TO FUND THIS, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU TAKE MONEY AND MAKE NO EFFORT TO ADDRESS YOUR ADDICTION, THEN THAT IS OKAY, THEN WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT OTHER TIME, YOU WILL GET MORE PEOPLE TAKING TAXPAYER MONEY AND NOT MAKING AN EFFORT. YOU WILL ALSO ABOUT THE CULTURE OF NEW ZEALAND. PEOPLE WHO WHY AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IT IS NOT A GLAMOROUS LIFE, LIVING ON THE BENEFIT. IT'S NOT LIKE YOU ARE LIVING ON LUXURY. YOU SAYING THAT IF YOUR POLICY IS THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO INVESTIGATE FRAUD` MY POLICY IS NOT THAT WE DO NOT INVESTIGATE FRAUD. YOU HAVE GONE TO THE BINARY. I AM MERELY SAYING THAT THE MONEY THAT WE HAVE SPENT ISN'T REPRESENTED IN THE MONEY THAT WE GET BACK, AND IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY AND SPENDING TAXPAYER MONEY WISELY, THAT IS AN ISSUE. ACCORDING TO VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, A PROFESSOR SAID THAT THE IRD PURSUES ROUGHLY $1 BILLION IN TAX EVASION EACH YEAR. SOME ESTIMATES PUT IT AT SEVEN TIMES AS HIGH. IF YOU ARE SO COMMITTED TO PERSECUTING FRAUD AND TO UPHOLDING MORAL STANDARDS, HOW MUCH MORE MONEY WILL YOU PROVIDE THE IRD TO PURSUE TAX EVASION? WHAT WE NEED TO DO WITH TAXES HAVE A LOWER, FLATTER, SIMPLER SYSTEM. SORRY. TAX EVASION. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS COMPLETELY WRONG. PEOPLE SHOULD FOLLOW THE LAW. HOW MUCH MONEY YOU PUT INTO FOLLOWING THAT UP? WE DON'T HAVE A POLICY TO INCREASE PROSECUTIONS ON WELFARE OR IRD. YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT FRAUD IN YOUR WELFARE POLICY. EIGHT TIMES AMONGST ALL OF THE PAGES. I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT TAX EVASION THERE. EVEN THOUGH AT COST $7 BILLION A YEAR. POTENTIALLY. WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN IS WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING POLICY BENEATH THESE AREAS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS ACTIVE IN` I THOUGHT YOU WERE INTERESTED IN TAXPAYER MONEY. OF COURSE. I THOUGHT YOU WERE INTERESTED IN WHAT IS MORALLY RIGHT. I MET SALUKI INTERESTED IN THAT. BUT YOU WILL NOTICE THAT IF YOU WANT TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW MUCH IS BEING USED TO TAKE ON TAX EVASION, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY IS USED TO GO AFTER BENEFIT FRAUD, THAT IS A SEPARATE ARGUMENT. BUT OUR WELFARE POLICY SIBLEY MAKES THE POINT THAT IF YOU ARE ON A DRUG ADDICTION, IF YOU ARE TAKING MEDICAL LEAVE FOR STRESS, FOR EXAMPLE` YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TALKS ABOUT FRAUD. YOU ARE A PARTY THAT SAYS IT IS FOCUSED ON SERIOUS POLICY AND NOT JUST POPULIST ISSUES. YOU MENTIONED FRAUD IN YOUR DOCUMENT EIGHT TIMES. I CAN'T SEE A SINGLE POLICY THAT COMES DOWN TO PURSUING TAX EVASION OF WHITE-COLLAR CRIME. WOULD YOU COMMIT TO INCREASING DEBT FUNDING? WE VERY WELL MIGHT. WE HAVEN'T RELEASED A POLICY ON TAX EVASION. BUT OBVIOUSLY, OUR POSITION IS WE ARE OPPOSED TO IT. WE HAVE RELEASED A POLICY THAT WE BELIEVE WOULD REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF DRUG ADDICTION AND REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF DEPENDENCY THAT IS NOT NEEDED, WHERE PEOPLE CAN LEAD MORE POSITIVE LIVES. I THINK THAT'S A POSITIVE THING. IT'S INTERESTING. IT SPEAKS YOUR PRIORITIES AND THE UMBRELLA PRINCIPLES THAT YOU ARE FIXING YOUR PRIORITIES BY ` MORALITY AND FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY. THROUGH THAT LENS, BOTH OF THOSE POLICIES I THINK ARE DIRECTLY LINKED. BETWEEN 2018 AND 2020, THE VAST MAJORITY OF FRAUD BENEFIT PROSECUTIONS WERE DONE UNDER THE CRIMES ACT. 84% WHICH WAS TAX EVASION, WAS UNDER A DIFFERENT ACT. THAT IS A SOFTER ACT. WOULD YOU SUPPORT ALIGNING BOTH FRAUDS UNDER THE SAME ACT? POSSIBLY, BUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IS DECLINING PRODUCTIVITY. YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE SEEING IS THAT WE HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT IS UNDER ATTACK, WELFARE AND EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE SYSTEM THAT IS NOT DELIVERING. IF YOU REALLY THINK THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS ACT'S COMPARATIVE POLICIES ON WELFARE VS TAX EVASION` ANOTHER POLICY AREA YOU HAVE FOCUSED INTENTLY ON IS CRIME. NO PARTY HAS RELEASED MORE POLICY ABOUT CRIME THAN ACT. A MAJOR FOCUS FOR YOU IS BUILDING CAPACITY TO PUT MORE PEOPLE IN PRISON. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE? WE WANT TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE PEOPLE CAN BE IMPRISONED TO THE SAME RATE AS WHEN THEY WERE ABLE TO BE IN 2017. LABOUR DID A LARGE OPEN-AIR EXPERIMENT. THEY WANTED TO REDUCE THE POPULATION BY 30%, THE PRISON POPULATION. A RESULT IS, ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE SURVEY, WE HAVE A 30% INCREASE IN VICTIMISATION. AT THE AMOUNT OF VICTIMISATION PER ADULT. AND IT THINK THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH. I DON'T THINK THAT THE ETHICS BEHIND IT WERE RIGHT. THEY BASICALLY SAID IF YOU LET CRIMINALS OUT AND TAKE MORE OF A REHABILITATIVE APPROACH, THEY WILL BE KIND TO YOU IF YOU ARE KIND TO THEM. THAT HAS NOT WORKED. FOR MANY PEOPLE, THE CONSEQUENCES HAVE BEEN TRAGIC. ACT SAYS THAT WE NEED TO SWING THE PENDULUM BACK. MORE RIGHTS FOR VICTIMS. I AM ABSOLUTELY TIRED OF VISITING VICTIMS, PARTICULARLY IN RETAIL. THESE PEOPLE ARE AT THEIR WITS END. THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY COMMUNITY DOESN'T CARE. IMAGINE WHAT IT IS LIKE FOR THESE PEOPLE. THERE ARE CURRENTLY 2 1/2 THOUSAND EMPTY BEDS ACROSS THE PRISON NETWORKS. YOU WANT TO BUILD AN EXTRA 2000 BEDS. THAT WOULD BE ROUGHLY 4 1/2 THOUSAND EXTRA BEDS. HOW MUCH DOES IT COST EACH YEAR TO HAS A PRISONER? 500. 500 OVER FOUR YEARS. HUNDRED 93,000 AS THE CURRENT ESTIMATE. THAT IS THE CURRENT AVERAGE AMOUNT. IF WE ARE TO USE THE BEDS IN THE CAPACITY THAT YOU SAY IS NECESSARY, THAT WOULD BE IN THE VICINITY OF $850 MILLION A YEAR. LET ME PUT IT ANOTHER WAY ` THE COST OF THE AVERAGE NEW ZEALANDER OF HAVING 10,000 PEOPLE IMPRISONED AT ANY GIVEN TIME IS JUST OVER A DOLLAR A DAY. IF THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE IN PRISON GETTING DECENT REHAB, THE STREETS ARE SAFE, IN NEW ZEALAND REALLY IS A GREAT PLACE TO BRING UP KIDS AGAIN, I THINK THAT IS WORTH IT. YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT THE PRICE BUT THE PRICE OF HAVING A GOOD JUSTICE SYSTEM IS A DOLLAR A DAY FOR NEW ZEALAND. HOW HIGH ARE RECIDIVIST RATES IN NEW ZEALAND? IF YOU WANT TO GET OUT ON EARLY PAROLE, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE LEARNT TO READ AND GOT A DRIVERS LICENCE. YOU CAN EARN CREDITS BY HELPING OTHERS. THAT IS HIGH RECIDIVISM RATES. OF ALL AGES. THIS LINE STOOD OUT TO ME ` PRISONS CAN INCREASE THE LIKELIHOOD OF PEOPLE REOFFENDING. WOULD YOU AGREE IT IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO STOP PEOPLE FROM RECOMMITTING CRIMES WHEN THEY ARE RELEASED? I QUESTION THAT. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL RECIDIVISM RATES. THEY HAVE BEEN TO PRISON. YOU WOULD AGREE, AND OF THE CURRENT SYSTEM SURELY, THAT PRISON IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO STOP PEOPLE FROM REOFFENDING IN THE FUTURE? WELL, IF YOU LET ME FINISH, RECENT ANALYSIS HAS SHOWN THAT THEY ARE JUST AS LIKELY TO REOFFEND IF THEY ARE IN HOME DETENTION. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT. ACT HAS LONG HAD A POLICY THAT WE NEED TO START MAKING EARLY RELEASE CONDITIONAL ON SELF-IMPROVEMENT WITHIN PROVE MEANT. I'M ESPECIALLY TALKING ABOUT LITERACY. DRIVERS LICENCES AND TRADES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. WE NEED TO STOP PRISONS FROM BEING UNIVERSITIES FOR CRIME. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT IT IS WRONG FOR NEW ZEALAND TO BE PUTTING AWAY SO MANY PEOPLE ONLY TO PUT THEM BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. THAT IS A COST TO THE TAXPAYER INTO THE COMMUNITY. YOU ARE SAYING THAT REHAB IS ESSENTIAL, RIGHT? WE SPENT $36 MILLION A YEAR IN REHAB IN TOTAL. IF A PRISONER COSTS MORE THAN HUNDRED $90,000 A YEAR, WE ARE NOT SPENDING MUCH ON THEIR REHAB. 2000 REHAB PROGRAMS WERE DELIVERED IN PRISON LAST YEAR, WHICH MAKES FOR ONE IN FOUR PRISONERS. HOW MUCH MONEY ARE YOU PUTTING INTO REHAB PROGRAMS? WE BELIEVE WE CAN FIND THAT OUT OF EXISTING BASELINES. I THINK THAT WE CAN GET PRISONERS TO WORK TOGETHER WHERE PEOPLE THAT HAVE SKILLS CAN TRANSFER THEM TO OTHERS. VOLUNTEERS ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR EDUCATING PRISONERS. VOLUNTEERS ARE DOING THIS RIGHT NOW. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU DON'T USE THE TAXPAYER DOLLAR AS WELL. WHY ISN'T THAT HAPPENING NOW? THERE IS NO REASON TO DO IT. THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF OUR POLICY. WHY WOULD THEY BE REASON FOR PEOPLE LIKE THE CHARITIES OR ORGANISATIONS TO GO IN IN THE FUTURE? YOU ARE GOING TO SAY, IF YOU CAN'T READ TO A CERTAIN STANDARD, YOU CAN'T LEAVE PRISON. PRETTY MUCH. IT SOMETIMES DIFFICULT TO GET INTO DIFFERENT PRISONS. WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH OUR POLICY THAT BASICALLY SAYS IF YOU LEARN TO READ YOU WILL BE EARLY FREED IS THAT YOU HAVE DIFFERENT INCENTIVES RIGHT ACROSS THE PRISON SYSTEM. RIGHT ACROSS THE PRISON SYSTEM YOU FIND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET BETTER OR EARLIER RELEASE IF YOU UPSCALE. THAT MEANS THAT EVERYONE FROM THE WARDENS TO THE JAILERS TO THE INMATES TO THE VOLUNTEERS ARE ALL SAYING, HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE OUT EARLIER? YOU ARE ASSUMING THAT ALL OF THESE PRISONERS RESPOND TO RATIONAL INCENTIVES. I'M SURE THEY WILL BE SOME PEOPLE THAT GIVEN THE LEVELS OF MENTAL ILLNESS AND ADDICTION IMPRISONED, THAT IS NOT REALISTIC. THERE ARE HUGE STAFFING SHORTAGES AS WELL. THERE ARE MORE THAN 500 PRISON-BASED VACANCIES AT THE MOMENT. CORRECTIONS FOR JOBS IN AUSTRALIA PAY THOUSANDS MORE. WE FACE ALL OF THOSE CHALLENGES RIGHT NOW. WE WOULD BE LOOKING TO PAY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND MAKE IT MORE ATTRACTIVE. I WILL NOT GIVE YOU THE FIGURE BECAUSE THAT IS A DECISION YOU MAKE DOWN THE TRACK. THAT ESSENTIAL TO THE POLICY SURELY. IF YOU ARE GOING TO ASK ABOUT WHAT THE LABOUR RELATIONS ARE GOING TO BE IN THE FUTURE, WHAT WE KNOW IS` IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE UP THE GAP, 11%, IT WILL REQUIRE A SIGNIFICANT UPTAKE. CLEARLY NOBODY IN NEW ZEALAND SAYS THAT NEW ZEALAND WAGES SHOULD BE THE SAME AS AUSTRALIA AND EVERY PROFESSION. IF THAT WITH A CASE, WE WOULDN'T HAVE ANY PUBLIC SERVICE. YOU WOULD PROBABLY FIND THAT BROADCASTERS GET PAID MORE AND AUSTRALIA TWO. WHO KNOWS? THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS THAT WE HAVE A POLICY THAT WILL INCREASE PRISON CAPACITY AND JUDGES WILL HAVE THE OPTION TO SEND PEOPLE AWAY SO THAT COMMUNITIES CAN BE SAFER. ONCE THEY ARE THERE, AND WE DO THE REHAB. IT'S NOT LET PEOPLE OUT AND RUN RIOT AND BE UNSAFE OR LOCK PEOPLE UP IN THROWAWAY THE KEY. AXE POLICY IS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD GO TO PRISON AND SHOULD BE REHABILITATED. WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME. YOU WANT TO REWRITE THE ARMS ACT. WOULD ACT ALLOW LICENSED GUN OWNERS TO OWN SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPONS? AN AR15? IF YOU ARE LICENSED. YOU CAN DO THAT NOW, SO YES. IT WILL BE NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. THE SAME AS WHAT THE CHRISTCHURCH TERRORIST OWNED. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN DO THAT RIGHT NOW. NO, WE WOULD ACTUALLY MAKE IT STRICTER. OUR RE-WRITE WITH ME THAT THERE WOULD BE A GRADUATED SYSTEM SO THAT OVER TIME YOU CAN EARN THE RIGHT TO OWN MORE POWERFUL FIREARMS. AT THE MOMENT, WE DON'T HAVE THAT SYSTEM. OUR POLICY WOULD IMPLEMENT MORE OF THE CHRISTCHURCH ROYAL COMMISSION'S RECOMMENDATIONS. IT WOULD ENSURE THAT THE FOCUS WAS ON THE FIT AND PROPER PERSON. NONE OF THAT IS THE PROBLEM. THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT SINCE LABOUR RUSHED THROUGH ITS LAWS AND BAND FIREARMS, THEY HAVE SENT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF THE MOST POWERFUL FIREARMS UNDERGROUND. IT HAS NEVER BEEN WORSE, AND IT HASN'T HELPED THAT THERE RUSHED LAWS HAVE ALIENATED THE LICENSED FIREARM COMMUNITY, SENT FIREARMS UNDERGROUND AND UNDERMINED TRUST IN THE RULE OF LAW AROUND FIREARMS. WE HAVE TO GO IN A SECOND. FIVE ACT CANDIDATE STOOD DOWN IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS. TWO WITHDREW FOR PERSONAL REASONS. SOMEONE MADE PARODY SONGS ABOUT JACINDA ARDERN WHAT IS IT TALKING ABOUT THEIR CHARACTER? I THINK THE EFFECT THAT THEY STOOD DOWN SHOWS THEIR CHARACTER. YOU ATTRACTED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. THERE IS ONE PERSON WHOSE WORDS TO ME WERE NOT ACCEPTABLE. THEY WERE OUT WITHIN 50 MINUTES OF ME FINDING OUT. WHY WOULD THEY ATTRACTED TO ACT IN THE FIRST PLACE? WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT ACT'S LINEUP OF CANDIDATES IS OUTSTANDING. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU LOOK AT` NO, I THINK YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME THE LIST OF ACT CANDIDATES. PEOPLE CAN GO ON THE WEBSITE. TALKING ABOUT THE FABULOUS PEOPLE YOU CAN VOTE FOR IS BETTER. YOU WANT TO BE TREATED LIKE A BIG PLAYER. ANY PARTY POLLING IN THE DOUBLE FIGURES MAKING COMPARISONS ABOUT CONCENTRATION CAMPS WOULD BE GETTING SCRUTINY. I'M OKAY WITH SCRUTINY. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE GOOD THINGS TOO. WHY HAS EX GONE DOWN IN NEW ZEALAND FIRST GONE UP? I'M NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE. LOOK AT THE POLLS IN THE LAST WEEK. NEWSHUB ` DOWN TWO POINTS TO 10. IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST MONTH, THEY HAVE BEEN POLLS A MONTH AGO, HER PIMPLES THAT HEAD ACT AT 10 AND 13 AND 18. THERE IS SOME VOLATILITY. WHAT REMAINS TRUE IS WE HAVE HAD 10 ROUNDS OF LABOUR, NATIONAL, LABOUR, NATIONAL. WE ARE NOT REACHING OUR POTENTIAL. WE NEED REAL CHANGE IN FRESH NEW IDEAS THAT IS THE ECONOMY AND MAKE NEW ZEALAND MORE PROSPEROUS. I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN UNLESS ACT IS A PART OF IT. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT REASON WHY PEOPLE SHOULD GIVE THEIR PARTY VOTE TO ACT. THANK YOU. AFTER THE BREAK, AUCKLAND MAYOR WAYNE BROWN WITH HIS BIG PITCH THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT AND THE COUNCIL IN OUR BIGGEST CITY HAS TO CHANGE. THAT'S THE MESSAGE FROM AUCKLAND MAYOR WAYNE BROWN. THIS MORNING ON Q+A ` HE'S RELEASING DETAILS AROUND THE AUCKLAND MANIFESTO. IT'S A SERIES OF POLICIES AND PRIORITIES DEVELOPED BY HIM AND COUNCILLORS, WHICH THEY WANT POLITICAL PARTIES TO COMMIT TO IN THIS YEAR'S THE ELECTION. MAYOR WAYNE BROWN, GOOD MORNING. WHAT YOU THINK OF THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN? IT IS A BIT UNINSPIRING AT THE MOMENT, NOT MUCH TALK ABOUT INCREASING THE NATIONAL PIE. I WILL COME BACK TO THAT LATER. I AM INTRIGUED TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE OF AUCKLAND, WHY SHORTEN GET SPECIAL TREATMENT? IT IS NOT SPECIAL TREATMENT, ORGAN IS SPECIAL. AUCKLAND* COUNCIL ARE SPECIAL. NOWHERE IN AUSTRALIA OR NEW ZEALAND IS ANY COUNSEL LOOKING AFTER 1/3 OF THE COUNTRY. I AM THE REPRESENTATIVE OF 1/3 OF NEW ZEALAND. WE ARE SET UP THAT WAY, AND WE ARE TREATED AS THOUGH WE ARE A SMALLER COUNCIL. IF AUCKLAND DOES WELL, THE COUNTRY DOES WELL. WE DON'T HAVE THE POWER FOR IT. I AM VERY WITH PEOPLE SAYING THAT IN SYDNEY THEY CAN DO THIS. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE THE POWER TO SET PARKING FINES, LET ALONE BED TAX. BED TAX IS WHAT PAYS FOR THE BIGGER SUITES IN SYDNEY AND MELBOURNE. AS COUNCILS GO, WE ARE BIGGER THAN THEY ARE. A BIG RURAL POPULATION TO. LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE KEY POINTS IN THE MANIFESTO. THIS IS ONE THAT COVERS SOME OF YOUR CONCERNS ` DEVOLUTION. WHAT DO YOU WANT THAT? THEY TALK ABOUT PARTNERSHIP. TALKING ABOUT WASTING MONEY, MINOR ONE THING IS TO STOP WASTING MONEY. WE HAVE GOT A GOVERNANCE THAT HAVE WASTED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON TUNNELS PROJECTS DESIGNING UNDERGROUND METRO LINES THAT ARE NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. AND THINGS ACROSS THE HARBOUR THAT WE DIDN'T WANT. THREE WATERS ` HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, WE DID ASK THAT. YOU HAVE GOT TO SIT DOWN AND TALK TO WAS ABOUT WHAT WE WANT IN DEVELOPING A FULLY INTEGRATED TRANSPORT PLAN FOR AUCKLAND, WHICH INCLUDES FREIGHT AS WELL AS PEOPLE, AND IF THOSE PROJECTS AREN'T IN THAT LIST, THEN DON'T RAISE THEM. WE ARE FED UP WITH WELLINGTON TELLS WHAT TO DO AND NOT PROVIDING ANY MONEY FOR IT. SO IF I LOOK AT THAT TRANSPORT PLAN, WHAT WOULD AN INTEGRATED TRANSPORT PLAN LOOK LIKE? IN THE NEXT FIVE OR 10 YEARS IT WILL SHOW WHAT WE WILL BUILD TO GET AS A MATTER. THERE ARE IN PLACE PROCESSES TO MAKE BETTER USE OF WHAT WE HAVE A READY. WE WILL MAKE DYNAMIC LANES AND FEEDER ROUTES WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR. THIS WILL SPEED THINGS UP. THESE THINGS ARE NOT USUALLY COSTLY, BUT THEY REQUIRE INTELLIGENCE AND THE USE OF IT. WE ABSOLUTELY NEED TIME OF USE CHARGING, BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE OVERLOADED BRIDGES AND ROADS, THEY ARE JUST OVERLOADED FOR SHORT PERIODS OF THE DAY. SO MAKE PEOPLE PAY TO BE THERE AT THAT TIME OF THE DAY. CONGESTION CHARGING? NO, IT IS TIME OF USE CHARGING. IF YOU WANT TO USE PENROSE AND GREEN LANE BETWEEN 8:30 AND APISAI, YOU ARE GOING TO PAY A BIT MORE FOR IT. WE DON'T HAVE A SHORTAGE OF ROADS; PEOPLE ARE JUST USING THEM AT THE WRONG TIMES. YOU WANT AN ANNUAL TRANSFER OF TAX REVENUE EQUAL TO GST CHARGED ON RATES FOR AUCKLAND COUNCIL. THEY DO THAT IN SYDNEY AND AUSTRALIA. WE ARE LIKE A REGIONAL GOVERNANCE RATHER THAN A COUNCIL. GOVERNMENT HAS COMMISSIONED A STUDY OF THEIR OWN COMMISSION CALLED THE FUTURE FOR LOCAL GOVT, WHICH RECOMMENDED EXACTING THAT. WHEN WE PUT IN A BIG FUNCTION - FIFA - ALL THAT GST GOES TO WELLINGTON. WE ARE ALREADY SUBSIDISING THE COUNTRY. NEW SAY THAT AUCKLAND CANNOT COVER ANY MORE BUYOUTS. NEW SAY THAT AUCKLAND CANNOT COVER ANY MORE BUYOUTS. .THAT'S A NATIONAL PROBLEM. THAT HAPPENED IN THE WEST COAST OF AUCKLAND AND HAWKE'S BAY. WE HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN. SUMMARY SAYS THERE IS A PANIC DOWN HERE, THERE SHOULD BE A THOUGHT THROUGH PLAN. NOT TELLING AUCKLAND WHAT SOME GUY DOWN HERE HAS TRAINED UP FOR US. DREAMED UP* IS THE COUNCIL SIGNIFICANTLY COMPETENT? IS WELLINGTON SIGNIFICANTLY COMPETENT? NO. TELLERS HOW YOU REALLY FEEL (!) IF IT COMES TO CHANGING THIS RELATIONSHIP, WHAT LEVERAGED US AUCKLAND COUNCIL HAVE IN TRYING TO NEGOTIATE A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH WELLINGTON? WHY DO THEY SET IT UP TO BE SUCH A BIG COUNSEL IN THE FIRST PLACE? IT WAS TO ENABLE` IF YOU READ THE ROYAL COMMISSION, IT WAS TO ENABLE THE GOVERNMENT TO NEGOTIATE WITH A SET OF NEW ZEALAND IN THE GATEWAY CITY SO THAT WE CAN DO SENSIBLE THINGS TOGETHER. IT WASN'T SET UP SO THAT SOMEBODY IN WELLINGTON CAN DECIDE WE'RE GOING TO SPEND LOTS OF MONEY TO GO FROM THE AIRPORT TO THE TOWN UNDERGROUND. IF WE ARE COMPETENT TO RUN 1500 BUSES AROUND THE CITY EVERY DAY, AND DEFINITELY DOING BETTER TODAY THAN WE WERE BEFORE, THEN WE ARE THE PEOPLE THEY SHOULD BE ASKING. IT IS THROUGH MY COUNSEL AND MY IDEAS THAT WE ARE GETTING ON TO CONNECTING BUSES TO THE LIGHTS. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET ON WITHOUT ENDLESS CONSULTATION AS WELL. THE GREEN LEADER SPOKE AGAINST THIS THE OTHER DAY, AND I AM WHETHER. WITH HER* WE HAVE GOT DYNAMIC LANES OUT IN THE HIBISCUS COAST. YOU THINK WE WOULD BE IN A STRONGER POSITION TO ADVOCATE FOR MORE POWER AND AUTHORITY IF YOU HADN'T LEFT LOCAL GOVERNANCE NEW ZEALAND? NOW. NO* WE ARE NOT LIKE LOCAL GOVERNMENT NEW ZEALAND. WE ARE SET UP TO BE DIFFERENT. WE HAD A PRESENTATION... ON THE EXPENSIVE TUNNELS UNDER THE HARBOUR, AND PEOPLE SAID WE ARE IN PARTNERSHIP. WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY SAY IN THIS. WE HAD NO MONEY PUT IN THIS. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE BUILT IN MY LIFETIME, NOT EVEN IN YOURS. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR PRIORITY? PRIORITIES WILL BE ` TREATED WITH RESPECT AS A PARTY. CITY DEALS, WHAT HAPPENS IN AUSTRALIA, YOU GOT TO PICK THROUGH WHAT'S OUT THERE, THE UNDERLINING THING IS THAT AN INTEGRATED TRANSPORT PLAN FOR AUCKLAND FOR GOODS AND FOR PEOPLE, WILL BE WHAT HAPPENS OVER NEXT TWO YEARS. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DREAM UP SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T WANT JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD A TRIP SOMEWHERE OVERSEAS AND SEEN IT. IF IT IS NOT A MAN, WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO IT, AND WE ARE BOTH GUILTY OF THAT. BOTH PARTIES GOT TOGETHER AND JUMPED ON THAT. THAT'S GOING TO HAVE HUGE OCCASIONS ON THE ABILITY TO DELIVER THE APPROPRIATE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THAT. NO DISCUSSION. WE CAN'T PART OF IT IN SOME AREAS. THAT SORT OF STUFF HAS TO STOP, JUST STOP. THAT SHOULD SHOULD NOTE THAT THAT IS ONE OF YOUR REQUESTS ` THE MEDIUM DENSITY RESIDENTIAL REQUESTS, AND THAT THREE WATERS ARE SCRAPPED. THROUGH ALL THOSE THINGS ARE THERE WAYS THAT MONEY ON, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM YOU ARE FIXING? THREE WATERS, NOT OF THE MINISTERS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO EXPLAINED HOW THAT MAKES THINGS BETTER. IF THERE IS A BALLOT SHEET PROBLEM, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT. THEY ARE SETTING UP THESE ENORMOUS INCREDIBLY COSTLY MANAGEMENT ENTITIES, FOR WHAT? I KNOW YOU'LL BE PUNISHING THEM MANIFESTO FOR, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE ACTION CAMPAIGN? TO KNOW WHO YOU WILL VOTE FOR? I'M A SWING VOTER SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR? NOW, NOT REALLY. KNOW PARTY IS WHOLLY GOOD OR WHOLLY BAD. ACT WAS JUST ON HERE, THEY HAVE SOME QUITE GOOD POLICIES AND SOME QUITE BAD POLICIES. THERE ARE SOME GOOD MINISTERS IN BOTH OF THE MAIN PARTIES AND SOME SHOCKERS, AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE ROWS OF NATIONAL PARTY` WHAT IS IT? WE GET WHAT WE NEED AND WHAT WE CAN AFFORD IN AUCKLAND. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER, OR IF YOU REALLY MUST, FACEBOOK. A BIG SHIFT IN THE DEBATE OVER HOW KIDS SHOULD LEARN TO READ. WITH LESS THAN A MONTH UNTIL POLLING DAY, THE CONTEST FOR HUTT SOUTH IS SHAPING UP AS ONE OF THE CLOSEST ELECTORATE RACES, DOMINATED BY TWO HIGH-PROFILE MPs. HERE'S WHENA OWEN. WEEKEND MARKETS AT ELECTION TIME, AND YOU CAN'T ESCAPE POLITICS ` THIS IS RIVERSIDE MARKET IN LOWER HUTT. SO, ALONG WITH THEIR VEGGIES, HUTT SOUTH VOTERS CAN GO WINDOW SHOPPING FOR THEIR CANDIDATES. HERE'S... FREEDOMS NEW ZEALAND? RUNNING FOR FREEDOMS NEW ZEALAND. THERE WE GO. YAY! WE VOTE FREEDOM! THAT'S THE UMBRELLA PARTY FOR BRIAN TAMAKI AND SUE GREY. AND THEN... NZ LOYAL. GREENS OVER HERE... AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST. YEAH. AND LABOUR HERE. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO THE POLICE MINISTER, OR THEIR LOCAL MP. AND FINALLY ` ACT. WHERE'S NATIONAL? IS NATIONAL... HERE? I HAVEN'T SEEN THEM. NAH, THEY'RE NOT HERE. NATIONAL? WELL, NATIONAL'S HUTT SOUTH CANDIDATE, CHRIS BISHOP, WAS IN ROTORUA, ANNOUNCING HIS SOCIAL HOUSING POLICY. (CAR HORNS BLARE, WHOOPING) PETONE FORESHORE ON MONDAY MORNING.. (CAR HORN BLARES, WHOOPING) ...AND THE NATIONAL PARTY LEADER'S ALONG TO ENDORSE CHRIS BISHOP'S BID FOR HUTT SOUTH. I JUST KNOW HOW HARD HE'S WORKING. HE'S DOING AN INCREDIBLE JOB, AND HE'S ADVOCATING STRONGLY FOR THE COMMUNITY. HE'S PART OF THE COMMUNITY. IT'S IN HIS BLOOD. UH, AND SO I KNOW HE'S WORKING INCREDIBLY HARD. HE'S DETERMINED TO WIN IT. CHRIS BISHOP HAS ALREADY HELD THE SEAT. HE WON IT IN 2017, WHEN TREVOR MALLARD WENT ONTO THE LIST AFTER 18 YEARS AS MP FOR HUTT SOUTH. HE WON IT IN 2017, WHEN TREVOR MALLARD WENT ON TO THE LIST AFTER 18 YEARS AS MP FOR HUTT SOUTH. THEN, IN 2020, IT SWUNG BACK TO LABOUR... WELL, YOU CAN COME AND SEE ME IF YOU NEED TO. I'VE GOT OFFICES IN... ...GINNY ANDERSON TAKING IT WITH A MARGIN OF OVER 3700 VOTES. (FUNKY MUSIC) THE HUTT SOUTH ELECTORATE COVERS THE LOWER HUTT VALLEY, INCLUDING WAINUIOMATA AND THE BAYS AROUND TO EASTBOURNE. THIS IS A TWO-HORSE RACE BETWEEN NATIONAL AND LABOUR, BUT THE SMALLER PARTIES ARE GETTING THEIR COLOURS OUT THERE. THE GREENS' NEELU JENNINGS IS A DISABILITY ADVOCATE. THAT'S A BIG PART OF WHY I'M HERE. UM, WE NEED DISABILITY REPRESENTATION. NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S HUTT SOUTH CANDIDATE IS ACTOR LEE DONOGHUE RECENTLY RETURNED FROM L.A. AND KNOWN FOR HIS SHORTLAND STREET ROLE AS... YEAH, HUNTER MCKAY. I'LL NEVER CONNECT WITH HIM, SO THERE'S NO CHANCE OF ME COSTING HIM HIS JOB, WRECKING HIS LIFE. CAN I SAY YOU ARE THE SHARPEST-LOOKING CANDIDATE OUT HERE THIS MORNING? OH, THANK YOU. UH` YEAH. WHAT'S THIS ALL ABOUT? (CHUCKLES) WELL, YOU KNOW... OVERDRESSED, DO YOU THINK? ...WE GOTTA FOLLOW THE RIGHT HONOURABLE WINSTON PETERS' EXAMPLE. HE'S THE BEST-DRESSED POLITICIAN BY FAR. AND, UH, THAT WAS THE MEMO THAT WENT OUT. (INDISTINCT CONVERSATION) TOP'S CANDIDATE, PHYSICIST DR BEN WYLIE-VAN EERD, ALSO STOOD IN THIS SEAT LAST ELECTION. THE QUALITIES OF A GOOD SCIENTIST ARE WHAT I WOULD HAVE TO BRING, PERSONALLY, TO PARLIAMENT, IF I WERE TO BE ELECTED AS YOUR HUTT SOUTH REPRESENTATIVE. OHHHH! AT THE WAINUIOMATA LIBRARY, THE MP FOR HUTT SOUTH HAS POPPED INTO THE WEEKLY KAUMATUA GET-TOGETHER. ONE OF THEM IS THANKING HIS MP FOR RE-ESTABLISHING THE LOCAL POLICE STATION. WHENEVER SOMEBODY HAS A PROBLEM, SHE'S VERY QUICK TO GO AND TRY TO RESOLVE THE` SOLVE THEIR PROBLEM, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY COME IN. SHE'S VERY OPEN TO EVERYBODY IN THE COMMUNITY. AND SHE DIDN'T PAY YOU TO SAY THAT? VERY ACCOUNTABLE. NO, NO. NOT AT ALL. KIA ORA. CAN I GIVE YOU ONE OF THOSE? WOULD YOU LIKE ONE OF THOSE? YES. HELLO. SO WHY SHOULD VOTERS IN HUTT SOUTH GIVE YOU ANOTHER TERM? BECAUSE OF` MY TRACK RECORD AS A HARDWORKING MP THAT DELIVERS I THINK STANDS FOR ITSELF. JUST HERE IN WAINUIOMATA ALONE, THE HIGH SCHOOL IS HAVE... HAVING A FULL REBUILD ` $67 MILLION. SO FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE'RE SEEING THE ROLE GROW AGAIN. HOW ARE YOU? DO YOU WANT ONE OF THOSE? THANK YOU. NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN. SEE YOU LATER. BYE. BYE-BYE! HOW WOULD YOU DO IT BETTER HERE IN THE HUTT? I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF ISSUES WE'VE GOT TO WORK ON. ONE IS HOUSING'S A MASSIVE ISSUE HERE IN THE HUTT. YOU KNOW, RENTS ARE UP 250 BUCKS A WEEK IN THE LAST SIX YEARS. WE'VE GOT A REAL HOUSING CRISIS HERE IN LOWER HUTT. BUT THE NATIONAL` THE LAST NATIONAL GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY DEMOLISHED 315 STATE HOMES. YEAH. THAT WAS YOUR GOVERNMENT. YEAH, IT WAS. AND TREVOR MALLARD, WHO WAS THE LOCAL MP AT THE TIME, CALLED FOR US TO DEMOLISH THEM. BACK DOWN AT THE MARKET, HUTT SOUTH VOTERS ARE GIVING US THEIR ELECTION TAKES. HE'S QUITE VISIBLE. YEAH. CHRIS BISHOP? YES. I'D IMAGINE THAT GINNY MIGHT BE LOOKING FOR A NEW JOB SHORTLY. I REALLY HOPE THAT GINNY STAYS. YOU'RE ALSO STANDING ON YOUR REPUTATION AS POLICE AND JUSTICE MINISTER. THOSE ARE TWO QUITE HEAVY PORTFOLIOS YOU WERE HANDED. THEY ARE, YES. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU WENT? WELL` WELL, YOU'RE STILL MINISTER. LAUGHS: YEAH. YEAH. I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE DELIVERED FOR NEW ZEALAND IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVE THE MOST WELL-RESOURCED POLICE SERVICE WE'VE SEEN IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY. WE'VE DELIVERED 1800 MORE POLICE. AND` ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THEM HEAD`? I'VE HEARD ANECDOTALLY THAT THEY'RE FLOCKING TO AUSTRALIA NOW. UH, YOU HEAR ANECDOTALLY, BUT WE HAVE HAD NO TROUBLE IN RECRUITING POLICE HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, WHEREAS WE DO HEAR THAT AUSTRALIA DOES STRUGGLE TO RECRUIT. WHAT'S THAT? I'M SO SORRY ABOUT THAT. IS THAT A LIGHT MILKSHAKE? IT'S A GREEN SMOOTHIE. OH, A GREEN SMOOTHIE? CHRIS BISHOP, KNOWN FOR HIS STRATEGY SKILLS, IS ALSO OVERSEEING NATIONAL'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN. THE LEADER'S GOT CONFIDENCE IN ME TO RUN THE OVERALL CAMPAIGN, SO IT'S GOOD. I'M JUST TRYING MY BEST, AND... YOU KNOW, AS STEPHEN JOYCE USED TO SAY, IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE IN THE BACK ROOM, YOU KNOW, MAKING THE TEA AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF. BUT THE NATIONAL PARTY BACK-ROOM TEA-MAKER NOW FINDS HIMSELF RANKED NUMBER THREE. CAN YOU TRUST HIM? COS HE'S GIVEN HIS LOYALTY TO OTHER LEADERS. OH, ABSOLUTELY. NO, HE'S BEEN AN ABSOLUTE STANDOUT, AND HE'S BEEN REALLY INSTRUMENTAL AS PART OF OUR TEAM, TURNING THE NATIONAL PARTY'S FORTUNES AROUND. GINNY ANDERSON IS AT 17 ON LABOUR'S LIST. CURRENT POLLS WOULD SUGGEST SHE COULD BE BACK IN PARLIAMENT. SO WHETHER OR NOT SHE KEEPS THE SEAT, HUTT SOUTH VOTERS ARE LIKELY TO BE I FOR MORE OF THE CHRIS AND GINNY SHOW STAY WITH US ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. THE DEBATE OVER THE BEST WAY TO TEACH READING HAS INTENSIFIED IN RECENT YEARS AS INCREASING NUMBERS OF ACADEMICS AND EDUCATORS HAVE BACKED STRUCUTRED LITERACY, AS OPPOSED TO THE WHOLE LANGUAGE LEARNING METHOD WHICH HAS BEEN USED IN KIWI SCHOOLS FOR DECADES. CHILDREN READ: AT... THE... SHOP... IN THE SO-CALLED READING WARS, THIS ELECTION, NATIONAL HAS PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND. LET ME BE THE JUDGE. LET'S HAVE A LOOK. MY VISION FOR EDUCATION IN NEW ZEALAND IS THAT WE DELIVER CONSISTENT ACCESS TO THE VERY BEST POSSIBLE TEACHING AND RESOURCES TO EVERY SINGLE STUDENT, NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE. AND THAT STARTS WITH EVERY SINGLE CHILD LEARNING TO READ USING STRUCTURED LITERACY. WE WILL NO LONGER BE LEAVING LITERACY TO CHANCE IN NEW ZEALAND. ERICA STANFORD ANNOUNCED $60 MILLION IN FUNDING TO TEACH KIDS USING STRUCTURED LITERACY. EVERY SCHOOL WILL HAVE THE CHOICE OF A STRUCTURED LITERACY PROVIDER TO GIVE ALL TEACHERS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SCIENCE OF READING, THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE BRAIN LEARNS TO READ, AND THE STRUCTURED LITERACY APPROACH. READS: OUT OF THIS WHOLE. GREAT. AS PART OF ITS POLICY, NATIONAL WOULD END FUNDING FOR THE READING RECOVERY PROGRAMME, VERSIONS OF WHICH HAVE BEEN USED IN KIWI SCHOOLS FOR DECADES. READS: I CAN READ TO... MY TEACHER. AND BACKING STRUCTURED LITERACY GETS IN AHEAD OF RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION, WHICH IS STILL WORKING ON ITS ADVICE FOR HOW TO BEST TEACH LITERACY. THIS REALLY UNDERMINES THE WORK THAT THEY HAVE DONE AND ARE DOING, AND I'M VERY, VERY SHOCKED THAT IT'S TAKING WITH ONE HAND AND GIVING WITH THE OTHER WITH THE GETTING RID OF READING RECOVERY AND EARLY LITERACY SUPPORTS. CHILDREN READ: ...TO GO HOME. BUT UNDER NATIONAL IN WHAT WOULD BE AN UNUSUAL STEP IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM, STRUCTURED LITERACY WOULD BE MANDATED IN KIWI SCHOOLS. CONGRATULATIONS. BRILLIANT WORK. THE RESPONSE TO NATIONAL'S POLICY HAS BEEN DIVIDED. THE LIFTING LITERACY AOTEAROA ADVOCACY GROUP SAYS IT'S A GREAT DECISION WHILE TEACHER UNIONS HAVE EXPRESSED CONCERN AT THE MANDATING OF TEACHING STYLES. STORY IMAGE BUT ONE OF THOSE WHO'LL BE WATCHING THIS SPACE CLOSELY BUT ONE OF THOSE WHO'LL BE WATCHING THIS SPACE CLOSELY IS AMERICAN EDUCATION JOURNALIST EMILY HANFORD. SHE'S SPENT YEARS REPORTING ON THE READING WARS, AND RECENTLY VISITED FOR THE INAUGURAL NEW ZEALAND LITERACY COMPOSIUM. LEARNING TO SPEAK, UNLESS YOU HAVE A HEARING PROBLEM OR A SEVERE COGNITIVE DEFICIT, YOU WILL` A CHILD WILL LEARN TO SPEAK HER NATIVE LANGUAGE; ALL IT` ALL SHE NEEDS TO DO IS BE SPOKEN TO. AND OF COURSE, THAT HAPPENS OVER MANY YEARS, RIGHT? THERE'S FIVE YE` FIVE OR SIX YEARS BEFORE KIDS GO TO SCHOOL WHERE THEY'RE HEARING THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE AND LEARNING TO SPEAK IT. AND LEARNING TO READ IS FOUNDATIONALLY BASED IN THAT YOU BRING TO THE TABLE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF SPOKEN LANGUAGE, YOUR LANGUAGE COMPREHENSION. YOU HAVE AN ADVANTAGE. THE MORE YOU KNOW ABOUT SPOKEN LANGUAGE, THE MORE VOCABULARY YOU HAVE, THAT IS A HUGE ASSIST IN LEARNING HOW TO READ. BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THAT THERE IS THIS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE WORDS YOU KNOW HOW TO SAY AND KNOW THE MEANING OF AND THIS CODE, THE WAY THAT THEY'RE WRITTEN ON THE PAGE, AND THE MOST EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL KIDS HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE GOOD READERS IS TO START RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF THEIR SCHOOLING, SHOWING THEM, 'THIS IS HOW IT WORKS ` 'THIS IS HOW THE SOUNDS AND THE WORDS THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO SAY 'ARE REPRESENTED BY THE LETTERS AND WORDS. 'LET'S LEARN ABOUT THOSE SOUNDS. LET'S LEARN ABOUT THOSE LETTERS. 'LET'S LEARN HOW TO BLEND THOSE WORDS TOGETHER.' AND TOO MANY KIDS IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN NEW ZEALAND AND IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD AREN'T GETTING OFF TO A GOOD START WITH READING, AND THEY'RE... THEY'RE ENDING UP BEHIND EARLY. AND THE KIDS WHO GET OFF TO A GOOD START GO` SORT OF, LIKE, GET BETTER AND BETTER AND BETTER. IT'S CALLED THE MATTHEW EFFECT ` ESSENTIALLY, IT'S LIKE THE RICH GET RICHER WHEN IT COMES TO READING ` AND SOME KIDS ARE REALLY STUCK, UH, AND ARE SORT OF COMPROMISED READERS FOR A LOT OF THEIR LIVES COS THEY WEREN'T TAUGHT HOW TO READ AND IN SOME CASES WERE ACTUALLY TAUGHT HOW TO READ LIKE STRUGGLING READERS. WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN STRUCTURED LITERACY, WHICH IS PREDOMINANTLY PHONICS-BASED INSTRUCTION, AND BALANCED LITERACY, OR WHOLE-LANGUAGE INSTRUCTION, WHICH TELLS A CHILD TO CONSIDER A RANGE OF DIFFERENT THINGS ` SO TO PERHAPS LOOK AT PICTURES OR... TO THINK OF THE CONTEXT AROUND A MISSING WORD, AND... WHY IS THE DEBATE BETWEEN THESE TWO DIFFERENT TEACHING STYLES SO CONTENTIOUS? IT'S FASCINATING. IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE HAVE BEEN ARGUMENTS ABOUT THIS GOING BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF PUBLIC EDUCATION. AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS THERE'S A LOT OF EMOTION IN THIS DEBATE IS, I THINK, THESE DIFFERENT SORT OF SIDES GOT ASSOCIATED WITH OTHER KINDS OF BELIEFS, POLITICAL VIEWS ` LIKE, IN THE UNITED STATES ANYWAY, SORT OF THE IDEA OF TEACHING PHONICS AND EXPLICITLY STARTING WITH THE CODE IS SORT OF ASSOCIATED WITH A MORE TRADITIONAL OR CONSERVATIVE ` OR EVEN, NOW, SORT OF REPUBLICAN ` KIND OF APPROACH; AND THE SORT OF MORE WHOLE-LANGUAGE, WHICH BECAME BALANCED LITERACY, WAS MORE OF A... SORT OF PROGRESSIVE KIND OF APPROACH AND APPROACH WHERE KIDS ARE DISCOVERING THINGS ON THEIR OWN. AN APPROACH WHERE KIDS ARE DISCOVERING THINGS ON THEIR OWN. AND I THINK BECAUSE IT'S BEEN ASSOCIATED FOR SO LONG WITH POLITICAL BELIEFS, IT MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO REALLY LOOK AT WHAT THE RESEARCH WAS REALLY SAYING ABOUT THE FACT THAT BEING TAUGHT THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN LETTERS AND SOUNDS IS A CRITICAL PART OF BECOMING A GOOD READER. AT THE LAUNCH OF THE GOVERNMENT'S LITERACY AND NUMERACY STRATEGY LAST YEAR, THE NOW PRIME MINISTER SAID THIS. LAST YEAR, THE NOW PRIME MINISTER SAID THIS ` 'CAN I JUST ADD, THE DEBATE 'ABOUT WHOLE-LANGUAGE LEARNING VERSUS PHONICS ` 'IT'S REALLY JUST A COMBINATION OF THOSE THINGS. 'THE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE TO PICK ONE OR THE OTHER 'IS REALLY JUST A RED HERRING.' WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? I THINK THAT THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA, BUT I THINK... WHAT I HAVE FIGURED OUT IN MY WORK AS A REPORTER IS THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM. WHAT WE DO IN THE UNITED STATES, ANYWAY ` AND I UNDERSTAND YOU'VE DONE IT HERE, AND THAT QUOTE SEEMS TO TELL ME THAT THIS IS THE CASE ` IS SORT OF ADD THINGS ON, RIGHT? LIKE, 'OH, WE'VE LEARNED SOME NEW THINGS ABOUT HOW KIDS LEARN TO READ, 'SO WE'LL ADD THAT IN.' AND SO THE PROBLEM WITH SORT OF ADDING PHONICS INTO A WHOLE-LANGUAGE APPROACH IS THAT THEY'RE REALLY BASED ON DIFFERENT CONCEPTIONS ABOUT HOW YOU BECOME A READER. ONE IS BASED ON THE IDEA THAT YOU REALLY NEED TO LEARN THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LETTERS AND SOUNDS AND THAT IT REALLY IS MOST EFFECTIVE IF YOU'RE EXPLICITLY TAUGHT THAT; THE OTHER IS BASED MORE ON THIS THEORY THAT, 'WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO SOUND OUT THE WORDS. 'YOU CAN, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO, COS YOU CAN TEACH KIDS 'ALL THESE OTHER STRATEGIES TO FIGURE OUT THE WORDS. 'YOU CAN TEACH THEM TO THINK ABOUT WHAT MAKES SENSE ` USE THE CONTEXT, 'USE THE PICTURES, USE THE FIRST LETTER, USE THE LAST LETTER.' EARLIER, I WAS SAYING THAT LOTS OF KIDS ARE TAUGHT THE HABITS OF STRUGGLING READERS; THOSE TURN OUT TO BE THE HABITS OF STRUGGLING READERS. A PARTICULAR FOCUS FOR YOU IS THE EFFICACY OF THE READING RECOVERY PROGRAMME, A PROGRAMME THAT WAS DEVELOPED HERE IN NEW ZEALAND USING THE WORK OF NEW ZEALANDER MARIE CLAY AND EXPORTED TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. HOW INFLUENTIAL HAS READING RECOVERY BEEN? I THINK IT'S BEEN VERY, VERY INFLUENTIAL. AND I WILL SAY THAT I THINK THAT MARIE CLAY DID SOME REALLY, REALLY ESSENTIAL THINGS IN UNDERSTANDING SOME OF WHAT STRUGGLING READERS NEED. SHE IDENTIFIED THAT KIDS DO NEED TO BE IDENTIFIED EARLY AND THEY NEED TO BE GIVEN HELP, AND THAT MANY KIDS NEED VERY INTENSE REMEDIATION AND INTERVENTION EARLY ON, THAT THERE ARE SOME KIDS WHO ARE REALLY STRUGGLING. SO, THE READING RECOVERY PROGRAMME, SHE CAME UP WITH THAT BEFORE THERE WAS REALLY A GOOD UNDERSTANDING ABOUT HOW PEOPLE LEARN TO READ. AND MUCH OF WHAT IS IN THE READING RECOVERY PROGRAMME IS BASED ON THAT SORT OF THEORY OR IDEA ABOUT READING THAT TURNED OUT SUBSEQUENTLY TO NOT BE RIGHT. SO, MARIE CLAY CAME UP WITH HER IDEAS IN THE 1960S. A LOT OF THIS RESEARCH I'M TALKING ABOUT REALLY STARTED IN THE LATE '60S, '70S, '80S. BY THE '90S, IT WAS REALLY CLEAR THAT MUCH OF THE THEORY THAT MARIE CLAY AND OTHERS, OTHER WHOLE-LANGUAGE AND BALANCED-LITERACY ADVOCATES AND THEORISTS AND PROFESSORS IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD BASED THEIR WORK ON, THAT IT WASN'T... THAT IT WASN'T RIGHT. READING RECOVERY IS STILL WIDELY USED TODAY, HERE IN NEW ZEALAND AS WELL AS OVERSEAS. THE PROGRAMME HAS RECENTLY GONE THROUGH A REFRESH AND INCLUDES PHONICS IN A WAY THAT'S MUCH GREATER THAN PREVIOUS ITERATIONS. IS THAT SUFFICIENT, IN YOUR OPINION? WELL, I THINK THAT IS PART OF THIS SORT OF 'AND, PLUS, AND' APPROACH, WHICH I THINK JUST IS PROBLEMATIC, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO RECOGNISE THE OTHER ELEMENTS OF THE PROGRAMME THAT MIGHT NOT BE AS EFFICIENT AS POSSIBLE. LIKE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TIME AND MONEY AND LOTS OF KIDS WHO REALLY NEED HELP, AND I THINK IT'S REALLY CRITICAL TO UNDER` LIKE, IN THE UNITED STATES, I THINK PLACES THAT HAVE JUST ADDED PHONICS IN BUT KEPT TEACHING KIDS THOSE OTHER STRATEGIES ` 'OH, WELL, YOU CAN SOUND OUT THE WORDS; 'HERE'S SOME PHONICS TO HELP YOU SOUND OUT THE WORDS, 'BUT YOU CAN ALSO DO OTHER THINGS LIKE LOOK AT THE FIRST LETTER, 'THINK OF A WORD THAT MAKES SENSE, LOOK AT THE PICTURE' ` WHAT I SEE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NEW ZEALAND, IS THAT THOSE TWO THINGS HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TOGETHER, AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS I IDENTIFIED AS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM, COS KIDS ARE GETTING SORT OF A MIXED MESSAGE. SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT MANDATE A TEACHING PEDAGOGY IN NEW ZEALAND SCHOOLS? SAY, 'THIS IS THE WAY THAT ALL TEACHERS 'SHOULD BE TEACHING KIDS TO READ'? I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS UNDERSTAND HOW KIDS LEARN TO READ AND THAT THE WAY THEY'RE TEACHING IS BASED ON THAT RESEARCH AND KNOWLEDGE. HOW YOU DO THAT IS SORT OF BEYOND ME, IN TERMS OF BEING AN AMERICAN AND BEING A JOURNALIST. BUT I THINK THAT IS REALLY, REALLY CRITICAL. WHAT IS A GOVERNMENT FOR IF WE ARE NOT MAKING SURE` UH, OR A GOVERNMENT THAT IS INVOLVED IN PUBLIC EDUCATION, IF WE ARE NOT MAKING SURE THAT OUR YOUNGEST CHILDREN KNOW HOW TO READ? IT IS SUCH A CRITICAL SKILL. AND I THINK THAT'S WHY I HAVE STAYED ON THIS TOPIC FOR AS MANY YEARS AS I HAVE. A LOT OF MY REPORTING WAS ABOUT HIGHER EDUCATION AND ACCESS TO` WHO GETS ACCESS TO COLLEGE DEGREES, AND THEN I STARTED REALISING, LIKE, 'OH, THIS IS SO CRITICAL.' IT IS THE BASIS UPON WHICH ALL ACADEMIC LEARNING GETS BUILT ` YOUR ABILITY TO READ. I MEAN, REALLY, IT'S SORT OF` IF YOU KNOW HOW TO READ, YOU CAN KIND OF TEACH YOURSELF ANYTHING, RIGHT? LAST QUESTION ` DO YOU THINK WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE DEBATE? I HOPE SO. UM, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT EDUCATION THAT` UH, AT LEAST IN THE UNITED STATES IS WE TEND TO CHANGE OUR MIND ABOUT THINGS A LOT, RIGHT? AND TRY THINGS AND THEN SAY REALLY QUICKLY, 'OH, THAT DIDN'T WORK; 'WE'LL TRY SOMETHING ELSE.' SO I'M REALLY HOPING THAT WE'RE ON THE LONG HAUL HERE, THAT THERE WON'T BE A QUICK PIVOT AWAY. AND I'M HOPEFUL ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I THINK THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FOR WHOM THIS IS REALLY, REALLY CRITICAL, AND I DON'T THINK THEY WILL LET SCHOOLS TURN AWAY FROM THIS TOPIC. I THINK THEY'LL... THEY WANT` THERE ARE MANY PARENTS IN THE UNITED STATES WHO SAY TO ME, 'IT'S TOO LATE FOR MY CHILDREN, 'BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE FOR MY GRANDCHILDREN.' Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. THANKS FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. FIRST LEADERS DEBATE IS AT 7 O'CLOCK ON TUESDAY. CAPTIONS BY KRISTIN WILLIAMS AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR.