THANKS VERY MUCH, SIMON, WELCOME TO THE BATTLE OF THE TWO CHRISES. THE LEADERS OF OUR POLITICAL PARTIES ARE GOING TO GO HEAD TO HEAD LIVE THE FIRST TIME AS THEY FIGHT FOR YOUR VOTE. 25 DAYS OUT, THE COUNTDOWN IS ON. (APPLAUSE) GOOD EVENING ― THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE OF THE ELECTION, THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO RATE THE TWO MEN VYING TO BE OUR NEXT PRIME MINISTER. HERE THEY ARE ― CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRIS LUXON. THEY BOTH BELIEVE THEY ARE THE MAN FOR THE TOP JOB, SO WHAT IS THEIR PLAN TO MAKE NEW ZEALAND MORE AFFORDABLE, SAFE, AND COMPETITIVE. WE WILL DISCUSS THE COST OF LIVING, HOUSING, CRIME, FIXING OUR BROKEN HEALTH SYSTEM AND CLIMATE CHANGE. AND I WILL BE ASKING, ON YOUR BEHALF, WHY WE SHOULD TRUST THEM AND WHETHER THEY WILL STICK TO THEIR PROMISES. WE WILL ALSO PUT QUESTIONS TO THEM FROM VOTERS, ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT MATTER MOST. AND ALONG FOR THE RIDE, OUR STUDIO AUDIENCE, WATCHING IT ALL UNFOLD BEFORE THEM. AND STICK AROUND BECAUSE JACK TAME WILL BE JOINED BY A SPECIALIST PANEL TO ANALYSE THE PERFORMANCE. JUST TO NOTE, SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETING IS ON HAND, YOU CAN SEE THEM ON CHANNEL 200. WE TOSSED A COIN ― ONE OF THE LEADERS WILL START THE NIGHT, THE OTHER LEADER WILL FINISH IT, THEY EACH HAVE 30 SECONDS NOW TO DELIVER THEIR VISION FOR NEW ZEALANDERS, SO LET'S BEGIN WITH YOU, CHRIS HIPKINS. YOU'RE GONNA HEAR A LOT OF WORDS TONIGHT FROM CHRISTOPHER AND MYSELF, BUT THE KEY THING I WANT YOU ALL TO REMEMBER IS THIS ― YOU DO NOT TAKE OUR COUNTRY FORWARD BY WINDING THINGS BACK, YOU DO NOT DEAL WITH THE CLIMATE CRISIS BY SITTING ON YOUR HANDS, YOU DO NOT MAKE HOUSING MORE AFFORDABLE BY BRINGING BACK FOREIGN MILLIONAIRES, YOU DON'T HELP WITH THE COST OF LIVING BY CUTTING JOBS AND CRITICAL SERVICES. MY PLAN IS TO BRING INFLATION DOWN AND KEEP HELPING YOU WITH THE COST OF LIVING WHILE MOVING OUR COUNTRY FORWARD. I AM NOT PROMISING PERFECTION, BUT I WILL BE HONEST AND I WILL HAVE YOUR BACK. RIGHT ― CHRISTOPHER LUXON. THANKS, EVERYBODY. THIS ELECTION IS ALL ABOUT THE ECONOMY, AND WHICH PARTY CAN REBUILD IT AND REDUCE THE COST OF LIVING, SO YOU CAN GET AHEAD. NEW ZEALANDERS WATCHING TONIGHT KNOW WE'RE GOING BACKWARDS, AND THAT THE ECONOMY IS IN BAD SHAPE ― THEY SEE IT AND FEEL IT EVERY DAY. BUT IT DOES NOT NEED TO BE LIKE THIS, WE CAN BE SO MUCH BETTER. THIS ELECTION, YOU CAN VOTE FOR CHANGE, FOR FIXING THE ECONOMY AND BRINGING DOWN THE COST OF LIVING, RESTORING ORDER AND DELIVERING BETTER HEALTH AND EDUCATION. AND TO DELIVER THAT CHANGE, AND GET NEW ZEALAND BACK ON TRACK, PARTY VOTE NATIONAL. CHRIS LUXON, YOU MENTION ABOUT THE BAD SHAPE OF THE ECONOMY. WHAT CAN YOU PROMISE VIEWERS WATCHING AT HOME, WHAT RELIEF WILL YOU GIVE THEM OVER THE NEXT 12 MONTHS? I WANT TO GIVE LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME NEW ZEALANDERS TAX RELIEF. I THINK THEY ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WAKE UP AT 7 AM IN THE MORNING, THEY SLOG THEIR GUTS OUT, THEY PAY THEIR TAXES, THEY GET THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL, THEY OFTEN TAKE ON A SECOND JOB TO DEAL WITH THE SPIRALLING COST OF THINGS, THEY DESERVE A BREAK AND I WILL GIVE THEM A TAX RELIEF. FOR AN AVERGAE HOUSEHOLD INCOME FAMILY, WITH YOUNG KIDS, THAT WOULD MEAN $250 A FORTNIGHT, AND THAT WOULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO THEM. THAT COMES WITH A LARGE PRICE TAG ― $15 BILLION. IS THAT REALLY AFFORDABLE? YEAH, BECAUSE WE'VE BUILT OUR TAX PLAN INDEPENDENTLY OF THE FISCAL PLAN, WE'VE MADE IT SELF-FUNDING, BY GENERATING SAVINGS FROM WITHIN WASTEFUL GOVERNMENT SPENDING, AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE'VE RAISED NEW SOURCES OF REVENUE, AND THE COMBINATION OF THAT MEANS WE WILL BE ABLE TO GIVE RELIEF TO LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME WORKERS, THE SQUEEZE MIDDLE ― THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING IT INCREDIBLY TOUGH IN THIS COUNTRY. CHRIS HIPKINS, YOUR PROMISE IS AROUND GST. IS THAT REALLY GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE ― FIVE BUCKS A WEEK FOR THE AVERAGE FAMILY? I'VE SET OUT A 10-POINT COST OF LIVING PLAN THAT IS GOING TO SUPPORT NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH THE CURRENT COST OF LIVING CRUNCH. THERE ARE TWO THINGS YOU NEED TO DO IN A COST OF LIVING CRISIS ― BRING INFLATION BACK DOWN AGAIN AND SUPPORT NEW ZEALANDERS THROUGH THAT. WE ARE WINNING THE BATTLE ON INFLATION, IT'S COMING BACK DOWN AGAIN NATIONAL'S TAX CUTS WOULD MAKE INFLATION WORSE, AND THEY WANT TO CUT THE TARGETED SUPPORT THAT WE ARE PUTTING IN PLACE TO SUPPORT KIWIS, SUCH AS FREE EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS, TAKING AWAY THE PRESCRIPTION CO-PAYMENT, THESE ARE THINGS THAT THE NATIONAL PARTY WANTS TO TAKE AWAY, DISCOUNTED PUBLIC TRANSPORT FOR YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS ― THEY WANT TO TAKE THOSE AWAY TO PAY FOR TAX CUTS WHICH, FOR MANY NEW ZEALANDERS, WON'T ACTUALLY GIVE THEM $150 IF YOU ARE ON AN AVERAGE INCOME AND YOU DON'T HAVE CHILDREN, YOU'D BE LOOKING AT MAYBE $25 A WEEK IF YOU'RE LUCKY. IT IS BETTER THAN A COUPLE OF CENTS OFF YOUR BEANS AND CARROTS ― NONE OF THAT GST COMING OFF FRUIT AND VEGETABLES WILL GO TO CUSTOMERS. EVERYONE SAYS IT'S GOING TO GO TO THE SUPERMARKETS ― YOUR OWN MINISTER OF FINANCE SAID HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN IT, YOUR OWN TAX EXPERT GROUP― HOW WILL YOU MAKE SURE THAT IT IS PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS? SORRY, WHAT WAS THAT? HOW WILL YOU MAKE SURE THAT IT IS PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS? THAT IS WHY WE HAVE ESTABLISHED A GROCERY COMMISSION. WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NEW ZEALANDERS ARE PAYING TOO MUCH AT THE SUPERMARKET, BECAUSE THERE IS NOT ENOUGH COMPETITION IN THE SECTOR. SUPERMARKETS ARE MAKING OVER A BILLION DOLLARS A WEEK IN EXCESS PROFITS, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PASSING THOSE ON TO CONSUMERS. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE COMMISSION. YOU ARE ASKING NEW ZEALANDERS SITTING AT HOME, TO SAY HEY, TO IGNORE $125 A WEEK, WE HAVE FIVE DOLLARS IN GST. WOULDN'T THEY PICK THE TAX CUTS? YOU'VE JUST CONFLATED THINGS ― NATIONAL'S NOT PROMISING THAT. THEY'RE SAYING IF YOU'VE GOT TWO KIDS, ACROSS A FORTNIGHT YOU MIGHT GET SOMETHING THAT'S AKIN TO THAT. THIS IS THE THING ABOUT THE NATIONAL PARTY, IT'S ALL ABOUT MARKETING AND SPIN. WHEN YOU BREAK IT DOWN, THE NATIONAL PARTY'S TAX CUTS DON'T ACTUALLY ADD UP TO MUCH. NATIONAL CANNOT SAY HOW THEY WILL PAY FOR IT, THEIR PLAN DOES NOT ADD UP. $6 BILLION WORTH OF CUTS, AND THEY CANNOT SAY WHAT PUBLIC SERVICES THEY WILL CUT. AND THE $20 BILLION WORTH OF NEW ZEALAND HOMES THAT THEY WANT TO SELL TO FOREIGN BUYERS. HONESTLY! CHRIS HAS A PLAN TO TAKE GST FRUIT AND VEGETABLES, HE IS SUGGESTING THAT A GROCERY COMMISSION IT WILL GO AROUND WITH A CLIPBOARD CHECKING THE PRICE OF BANANAS UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY. YOU GET A COUPLE OF CENTS OFF YOUR FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, HE WILL THEN INCREASE TAX ON FUEL, SO FREIGHT CARRIERS WHO ARE MOVING FRUIT HAVE AN INCREASE IN COSTS. THE PRICE OF FOOD GOES UP. SO ON THE ONE HAND HE GIVES YOU A COUPLE CENTS OFF, BUT THEN SLUGS YOU WITH OTHER COSTS. THAN NATIONAL PARTY WILL ALSO RAISE THE PRICE OF PETROL. ON THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX, WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG? ZOOM OUT, BIG PICTURE ― WE ARE TRYING TO GIVE LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME NEW ZEALANDERS, THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE, SOME TAX RELIEF. WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG? BEFORE THE BAN WAS IN PLACE, 4100 HOUSES WERE SOLD TO FOREIGNERS. WE WILL BE CONSERVATIVE, AND WE EXPECT WE CAN SELL 1600, AT ALMOST $3 MILLION AVERAGE PRICE, WITH A 15% TAX. AND THAT ADDS UP, WE HAVE HAD IT VERIFIED BY INDEPENDENT ECONOMISTS, WHO SAY THAT IS PLAUSIBLE. WHY ARE YOU NOT PROVIDING THE MODELLING? I DO FIND IT PERPLEXING. WE'VE HAD OUR NUMBERS INDEPENDENTLY REVIEWED. ECONOMISTS WILL BE ARGUING ABOUT THE PROS AND CONS, BUT NO ECONOMIST IS ARGUING ABOUT THE VALUE OF GST OFF FRUIT VEGETABLES. THE REALITY IS, THEY CANNOT SELL $5 BILLION WORTH OF KIWI HOMES EVERY YEAR. THEY ARE BANKING OF NEW ZEALANDER GAMBLING TO PAY FOR TAX CUTS. AND LET'S NOT FORGET THE $6 BILLION WORTH OF PUBLIC SERVICE CUTS, AND THEY'RE NOT TELLING NEW ZEALANDERS WHAT THEY'RE GONNA CUT. CHRIS IS BENT OUT OF SHAPE, BECAUSE THE LABOUR PARTY AND THE CTU USED TO SUPPORT WORKING PEOPLE. I SUPPORT WORKING PEOPLE. I WANT HARDWORKING, LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME KIWIS TO GET TAX RELIEF. YOU SUPPORT WORKING PEOPLE BY MAKING THEIR WAGES GROW? THE NATIONAL PARTY HAS OPPOSED EVERY INCREASE TO THE MINIMUM WAGE. I DO WANT TO PUT THIS QUESTION TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON ― JAMES SHAW, AT THE FINANCE DEBATE IN QUEENSTOWN, SAID THAT PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHERE THE MONEY FOR TAX CUTS COME FROM. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE? WE ARE PRUDENT, SERIOUS, FINANCIAL MANAGERS OF THIS ECONOMY. CHRIS AND HIS TEAM HAVE HAD ECONOMIC MISMANAGEMENT ON A HUGE SCALE, THAT HAS CAUSED ENORMOUS PAIN AND SUFFERING FOR NEW ZEALANDERS. SO OUR TAX PLAN IS PRUDENT AND RESPONSIBLE ― WE USE CONSERVATIVE NUMBERS, WE BUILD BUFFER IN. ALL RIGHT― LET'S TAKE OUR FIRST YEAR PLAN― INTERESTING STUFF AND I LOVE THE ENERGY. WE WANTED TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE ACROSS NEW ZEALAND ABOUT WHAT IS WORRYING THEM THE MOST. RESEARCH COMPANY IPSOS, WHO PRODUCE THE SURVEYS MONITOR, SURVEYED NEARLY 1200 PEOPLE ON OUR BEHALF. ONE IS A YOUNG WAITRESS. I'M SKY RENS, I AM 23, I WORK IN HOSPITALITY, AND I LIVE ON AUCKLAND'S NORTH SHORE. DO YOU THINK THAT THE RICH AND WEALTHY SHOULD HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IT COMES TO POVERTY AND INEQUALITY? IF SO, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? I SAY, ABSOLUTELY, WE SHOULD ALL CONTRIBUTE OUR FAIR SHARE OF TAX. WHICH IS WHY I BELIEVE PEOPLE LIKE US DO NOT NEED A TAX CUT, I WOULD LOOK RATHER BE LIFTING CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. WE'VE LIFTED 77,000 CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY, BUT WE HAVE MORE WORK TO DO. I'M NOT GONNA REST TILL ALL KIDS ARE OUT OF POVERTY. WHEN IT COMES TO TAX, CAPITAL GAINS TAX THAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD DO AND BRING IN. IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD INTRODUCE IN ANY FORM IF YOU ARE PRIME MINISTER? NO, I HAVE BEEN CLEAR, WE WILL NOT INTRODUCE A CAPITAL GAINS TAX OR A WEALTH TAX. SO ABSOLUTELY NO? DO YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE PULSE OF THE PUBLIC ON THAT ONE? YES, THAT IS A NO. VERY NICE, THANK YOU. WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO PAY A CAPITAL GAINS TAX PERSONALLY? I WOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM, BUT THERE IS NOT THE PUBLIC OR POLITICAL SUPPORT. A CAPITAL GAINS TAX TAKES 10 YEARS BEFORE A GENERATE SIGNIFICANT REVENUE, SO THERE IS NO POINT IN ONE GOVERNMENT INTRODUCING IT AND ANOTHER REMOVING IT. HE IS GOING TO BE IN A COALITION OF CHAOS WITH TE PATI MAORI, THE GREENS AND SUPPORT FROM THEGANGS. FIRST TIME WE'VE HEARD THAT, WELL DONE, WE LASTED ABOUT 5-6 MINUTES. JUST WAIT AND SEE WHAT ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST WANT TO DO UNDER A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER FOR NEW ZEALAND. I WOULD SAY TO SKY THAT HELP IS ON THE WAY. SKY, IF SHE IS A MEDIAN INCOME EARNER, SHE WILL GET $50 EXTRA A FORTNIGHT. SHE IS PROBABLY GETTING THE $10 A WEEK, SHE IS A WAITRESS. THAT WILL HELP HER DEAL WITH HER RENT AND FOOD PRICES IN SUPERMARKETS. THAT IS THE MEANINGFUL WAY IN WHICH YOU DELIVER HEALTH AND SUPPORT. IS THE TAX SYSTEM FAIR? DOESN'T SKY HAVE A POINT? WHAT IS NOT FAIR, IS THAT THEY ARE NOT GETTING TAX RELIEF. THAT'S THE UNFAIRNESS IN OUR TAX SYSTEM. THEY ARE WAKING UP EVERY DAY, GOING TO WORK, SLOGGING THEIR GUTS OUT, DOING ONE OR TWO JOBS AND CANNOT GET AHEAD. THIS HAS TO BE A COUNTRY WHERE THE PROMISE OF NEW ZEALAND IS IF YOU WORK HARD, YOU DESERVE TO GET AHEAD. IF SKY'S ON MINIMUM WAGE, SHE WILL GET $0.25 AN HOUR UNDER NATIONALS TAX CUT, AND SHE HAS HAD A $7 DOLLAR INCREASE UNDER THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT TO THE MINIMUM WAGE. I THINK THAT'S HOW YOU HELP PEOPLE ON LOW INCOMES TO GET AHEAD, RATHER THAN $0.25 AN HOUR. SO HIPKINS, WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO GROW THE ECONOMY? WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE GROWING WAGES AND JOBS, THAT MEANS BOOSTING EXPORTS, MAKING SURE WE ARE ONE OF THE CLEANEST AND GREENEST ECONOMIES ― WE MAKE MONEY OFF THAT IMAGE IN NEW ZEALAND AND WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT. WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WE ARE KEEPING NEW ZEALANDERS IN WORK, WE HAVE ONE OF THE LOWEST UNEMPLOYMENT RATES, AND THAT IS BECAUSE OF OUR GOVERNMENT'S MANAGEMENT. 50,000 MORE PEOPLE ON UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT. WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO GROW THE ECONOMY? I WANT NEW ZEALAND TO BE ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED SMALL COUNTRIES ON EARTH. SO HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? WE NEED A WORLD-CLASS EDUCATION SYSTEM, WE WILL INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS MODERN AND RELIABLE. WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? THEY ARE THE DRIVERS OF PROSPERITY, THAT IS HOW YOU LIFT THE WEALTH OF THIS COUNTRY AND TAKE EVERYONE UP AND FORWARD. WE NEED STRONG INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIONS TO THE WORLD, WE DO NOT GET RICHER SELLING THINGS TO EACH OTHER, WE GET RICH SELLING IT TO RICH COUNTRIES. IN OUR IPSOS POLL, WITH YOUNGER PEOPLE AND MAORI IN PARTICULAR, THE PRICE OF PETROL IS A BIGTHING. CAN YOU, AND WILL YOU DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRICE OF PETROL? WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO WHAT CHRIS IS DOING, TO INCREASE FUEL TAX. WHAT WILL YOU DO? WE'RE NOT GONNA INCREASE FUEL TAX IN OUR FIRST TERM. BECAUSE UNTIL WE GET INFLATION UNDER CONTROL, WHICH IS THE NUMBER ONE JOB. THEY WILL NOT GET $0.12 OR $0.10 EXTRA A LITRE, I WANT THEM TO KEEP THEIR OWN MONEY IN THEIR POCKET. SHORT RESPONSE FROM YOU, CHRIS HIPKINS. WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO WHAT NATIONAL IS GOING TO DO. THEY SAID THEY ARE GONNA LOWER EMISSIONS BY HIKING UP THE PRICE OF CARBON, THAT COULD INCREASE THE PRICE OF PETROL BY $0.40 A LITRE. THAT'LL MAKE OUR TAX INCREASE PALE IN SIGNIFICANCE. WE NEED TO INCREASE THE PRICE OF PETROL MODESTLY, $0.04 A LITRE A YEAR, TO INVEST IN THE ROADS THAT WE NEED AS A COUNTRY. SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR THEM. LUXON THINKS THAT INTERNATIONAL INVESTORS WILL PAY FOR OUR ROADS, AND NOT WANT A RETURN FROM THAT. WE STILL HAVE TO PAY THAT MONEY BACK. I HOPE YOU'RE ENJOYING THIS, THIS IS GOOD FUN. NEXT WE'LL FOCUS ON LEADERSHIP. CHRIS HIPKINS, ARE YOU INSPIRATIONAL? AND CHRIS LUXON, YOU'VE RUN A COMPANY, CAN YOU RUN A COUNTRY? WELCOME BACK. IN THE AGE OF PANDEMICS AND CLIMATE DISASTERS, WE HAVE BEEN MADE AWARE OF JUST HOW ESSENTIAL LEADERSHIP AND TRUST ARE WHEN DECISIONS HAVE TO BE MADE. THIS IS A BIG TOPIC FOR BOTH OF YOU. CHRIS HIPKINS, I WOULD ASK YOU A QUESTION. WITH CHRISTOPHER LUXON, WHAT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU ADMIRE ABOUT HIS LEADERSHIP. FIRST OF ALL, I REALLY ADMIRE HIS COMMITMENT TO HIS FAMILY, AND I GENUINELY RESPECT THAT. BEING IN POLITICS IS HARD ON FAMILIES AND I RESPECT THE FACT THAT HE CONTINUES TO MAKE TIME FOR HIS FAMILY. I THINK GENERALLY BEING LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION IS A TOUGH JOB. BEING PRIME MINISTER IS A TOUGH JOB TOO. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION? WHAT LEADERSHIP QUALITY DO YOU RESPECT AND CHRIS HIPKINS? REQUIRES HUGE AMOUNTS OF RESILIENCE AND ONE OF THE MOST EXTREME JOBS IN THE COUNTRY THAT YOU CAN DO. I RESPECT ANYONE THEY CAN DO THAT. I RESPECT THE WAY HE WENT ABOUT IT WHEN HE TOOK ON THIS JOB. DO YOU TRUST CHRIS HIPKINS? I AM SURE HE HAS GOT GOOD INTENTIONS, BUT WE DISAGREE ON HOW TO TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARDS. IT DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BAD PERSON BUT IT IS THAT WE DISAGREE ON WHAT IS THE BEST RECIPE FOR NEW ZEALAND. DO YOU TRUST CHRISTOPHER LUXON? I DISAGREE WITH HIS PRESCRIPTION FOR NEW ZEALAND AND I DON'T TRUST HIM TO BE UPFRONT AND HONEST WITH NEW ZEALANDERS ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF HIS POLICIES, BECAUSE IF HE WAS, HE WOULD BE RELEASING THE SECRET COSTINGS. NICE SEGUE INTO THAT. WHO IS THE LEADER THAT YOU HAVE WORKED UNDER THAT YOU HAVE RESPECTED THE MOST? I RESPECT MANY LEADERS THAT I HAVE WORKED WITH. JACINDA ARDERN IS A CLOSE FRIEND AND I RESPECT HER ENORMOUSLY. WHO WOULD YOU PUT AT THE TOP? I WOULD GET INTO TROUBLE WITH BOTH OF THEM IF YOU ASKED ME THAT? THERE IS ONLY A FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WATCHING, DON'T WORRY. CHRIS LUXON, WHO IS THE BEST LEADER YOU HAVE EVER WORKED ? THERE ARE BEEN A NUMBER OVER MY CAREER. YOU CAN TAKE GOOD BITS OUT OF EACH LEADER THAT YOU WORKED WITH. GIVE US A GOOD EXAMPLE. I CAN THINK OF DIFFERENT LEADERS IN THE BUSINESS WORLD WHERE THE WAY THAT SOMEONE WENT ABOUT SOMETHING HELPED IN MY OWN LEADERSHIP SKILLS. I HAVE LEARNT THAT I HAVE REAL-WORLD LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE, SPENT MY WHOLE LIFE GETTING THINGS DONE AND TURNING THINGS AROUND. TO BE HONEST, I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS RIGHT NOW, THAT LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE, REAL WORLD. WE ARE NOT REALISING ALL OF OUR POTENTIAL BUT WE CAN. IN THE SURVEY, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS PEOPLE WANTED TO KNOW IS HOW CAN THEY TRUST YOU TO CARRY OUT YOUR PROMISES? WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE? WE HAVE HAD A DISRUPTIVE SIX YEARS AND I AM OPEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NOT FULFILLED THECOMMITMENTS WE HAVE MADE. I MADE A COMMITMENT WHEN I BECAME PRIME MINISTER THAT ALL OF THE COMMITMENTS I PUT FOR THE ELECTORATE THE SELECTION WILL BE THINGS I AM ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENT WE CAN DELIVER ON IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS. WE HAVE HAD SOME BIG COMMITMENTS OF THE PAST SIX YEARS AND MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS. THERE HAS BEEN PLENTY OF DISRUPTIONS ALONG THE WAY. PEOPLE AT HOME WILL SAVE, POLITICIANS ― CAN'T TRUST A LOT OF YOU. I AM NOT A CAREER POLITICIAN LIKE CHRIS AND MANY OTHERS. I HAVE COME TO THIS JOB BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO DO IT, BECAUSE I WANT TO DO IT AND THINK THE COUNTRY CAN BE MUCH BETTER I AM USED TO GETTING THINGS DONE. I THINK THAT'S WHAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS. I AM A VERY RESULTS DRIVEN PERSON BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE. I BELIEVE IN BUILDING STRONG TEAMS TO GET THE JOB DONE. MY SUCCESS HAS COME FROM DOING THAT. I THINK YOU NEED TO BE STRAIGHT UP WITH THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE AND SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU CAN COMMIT TO. IT IS A DYNAMIC ENVIRONMENT AND WHEN IT CHANGES YOU HAVE TO BE STRAIGHT UP WITH THEM. WHERE WE ARE TODAY AS A COUNTRY IS PEOPLE ARE SICK OF THE TALK AND WANT DELIVERY. THEY WANT THINGS TO GET DONE. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT LEADERSHIP OF THE LAST FEW YEARS ― COVID COMES TO MIND. IN HINDSIGHT, WAS LABOUR RIGHT TO LOCKDOWN FOR AS LONG AS IT DID? I HAVE BEEN QUITE PUBLIC ABOUT IT. THE FIRST PART OF THE RESPONSE WAS WELL MANAGED BY CHRIS AND JACINDA ARDERN. WE WERE WAY TOO SLOW TO COME OUT AFTER THAT TIME. HOW WOULD YOU MANAGE THAT DECISION, MAKING THE BALANCE BETWEEN LIVES AND LIVELIHOODS? AFTER THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS WAY TOO SLOW AND OTHER COUNTRIES CAME OUT MUCH QUICKER, GOT THE JUMP ON US, AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO AS WELL. CHRIS HIPKINS, YOU CARRY THE WEIGHT OF COVID ON YOUR SHOULDERS AT THE TIME. IT WAS AN ENORMOUS RESPONSIBILITY. OTHER COUNTRIES HAD THE HARDSHIP OF BEING ABLE TO COME OUT OF COVID RESTRICTIONS FASTER THAN NEW ZEALAND, BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY HAD COVID SWEEP THROUGH THEIR COMMUNITIES. WE HAD AN UNVACCINATED COMMUNITY. WE NEEDED TO TREAD CAREFULLY. WE NEEDED TO PROTECT OUR VULNERABLE, AND NEW ZEALAND AS A WHOLE SHOULD BE INCREDIBLY PROUD OF OUR COVID-19 RESPONSE. WE HAD ONE OF THE LOWEST DEATH RATES FROM COVID-19 IN THE WORLD. WITH THE BENEFIT OF HIND SIGHT, THERE ARE MANY THINGS WE WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY BUT WE DID NOT. YOU DO NOT GET THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT WHEN YOU ARE IN GOVERNMENT. YOU ARE OFTEN MAKING DECISIONS ACED ON LIMITED INFORMATION. BEING IN THE PRIME MINISTER ROLE, THERE ARE OFTEN THINGS THAT ARE UNPREDICTABLE. CHINA ― IT'S OBVIOUSLY A $40 BILLION TRADING PARTNER FOR US. IF CHINA WAS TO INVADE TAIWAN, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT HYPOTHETICALS ABOUT A SITUATION LIKE THAT WHICH IS SO SERIOUS. IT IS SOMETHING THE WHOLE WORLD TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO AVOID. I DON'T THINK ARMED CONFLICT IN THE TAIWAN STRAIT IS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THE WORLD AND NEW ZEALAND SHOULD USE ITS DIPLOMATIC MIGHT TO AVOID THAT SITUATION. I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD SPECULATE ON HYPOTHETICALS, BECAUSE IT COULD BE DAMAGING FOR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND DAMAGING FOR WORLD POLITICS. IT'S A TRICKY SITUATION, ISN'T IT? BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THIS IS WHERE THERE HAS BEEN BIPARTISANSHIP UNDER SUCCESSIVE PARTIES IS OUR APPROACH TO FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH KEY PARTNERS IT HAS BEEN CONSISTENT. IT IS NOT HELPFUL HAVING A HYPOTHETICAL LIKE THAT. HOW WOULD YOU RATE YOURSELF AS A NEGOTIATOR? MY BACKGROUND IN BUSINESS HAS MEANT I HAVE DONE A LOT OF NEGOTIATIONS ― ACQUISITIONS AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING. WINSTON PETERS? IT HAS PREPARED ME FOR GOOD LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE THAT IS VERY USEFUL FOR NEW ZEALAND AT THIS TIME IN OUR HISTORY. WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR WOULD BE RUNNING CIRCLES AROUND YOU. PETERS BRINGS CHAOS WHEREVER HE GOES. I HAVE RULED OUT WORKING WITH WINSTON PETERS BECAUSE STABLE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT COME FROM WORKING WITH HIM. WHAT I WOULD SAY TO YOU IS THAT THE ORIGINAL COALITION OF CHAOS― LABOUR HAS HAD AN ABSOLUTE MAJORITY AND NOT GOT THINGS DONE. WHEN YOU THROW TE PATI MAORI, GREENS AND GANGS INTO THE MIX, THAT IS NOT GREAT. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. YES, IT HAS BEEN A CHALLENGING THREE YEARS. FOR THE FIRST NEARLY 2 YEARS, WE WERE LEADING THE COUNTRY THROUGH A GLOBAL PANDEMIC. THAT MADE IT HARD TO GET TO GET THINGS DONE. WE NEED TO GET BACK TO FOCUSING ON THE BREAD-AND-BUTTER ISSUES, THE BASICS. AND I BELIEVE WE HAVE BEEN MAKING PROGRESS ON THOSE THINGS. GETTING INFLATION DOWN, GETTING THE ECONOMY GROWING AGAIN. WE HAVE KEPT NEW ZEALANDERS IN JOBS THROUGH SOME OF THE MOST DIFFICULT ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES WE HAVE FACED. I ACKNOWLEDGE IT HAS BEEN A DIFFICULT TIME FOR NEW ZEALANDERS. BUT THE MORE NEW ZEALANDERS SEE THE RISKS OF NATIONAL'S APPROACH, THE HUGE CUTS THEY WANT TO MAKE TO GOVERNMENT SPENDING... I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH VERY QUICKLY ― A LITTLE BIT OF SELF REFLECTION. WHAT IS THE QUALITY YOU MOST DEPLORE IN YOURSELF? I AM PRETTY HARD CHARGING AND DETERMINED. HIPKINS? I PROBABLY NEED TO DELEGATE MORE. VERY DIPLOMATIC ANSWERS FROM BOTH OF YOU. BASICALLY WHAT WE ARE HEARING IS ― TRUST ME, I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING ― FROM BOTH OF THEM. WE WILL TALK CRIME AFTER THE BREAK. WELCOME BACK TO THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE. GETTING TOUGH ON CRIME IS A MAJOR CONCERN FOR VOTING KIWIS. TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, A 16 YEAR OLD HAS BEEN ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH MURDER AFTER AN ATTACK AT AN ALBANY BUS STATION. THIS HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, AS AUCKLANDERS WERE GETTING THE BUS. WE ARE SO USED TO TREATING NEW ZEALAND AS A SAFE COUNTRY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE UNSAFE? I'VE SPOKEN TO MANY OF THE VICTIMS ― IT IS UNACCEPTABLE AND WE SHOULD NOT BE IN THAT SITUATION. JUST OVER A YEAR AGO WHEN I BECAME MINISTER OF POLICE, I SAID I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH OUR APPROACH. SINCE THAT TIME, OPERATION COBALT FOR EXAMPLE, CHARGES HAVE BEEN MADE AGAINST GANG MEMBERS, BECAUSE THE ESCALATION OF GANG ACTIVITY IS UNACCEPTABLE. A PERSONAL QUESTION ― DO YOU KNOW HOW IT IS TO FEEL UNSAFE? NOT AT THE MOMENT, BUT THERE ARE MORE NEW ZEALANDERS FEELING UNSAFE AND WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. AND WHAT POSITION ARE YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? THE CIRCUIT BREAKER INITIATIVE THAT WE WANT TO PUT IN PLACE, MEANS THREE QUARTERS OF YOUNG OFFENDERS HAVE NOT REOFFENDED. WE WANT TO REMOVE THEM FROM THE CYCLE OF CRIMINAL OFFENDING, WE NEED TO TURN THESE KIDS LIVES AROUND. WE NEED TO HAVE LESS CRIMINALS, IF WE WANT LESS CRIME. DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO FEEL UNSAFE? I HAVE WALKED THROUGH DOWNTOWN AUCKLAND AND IT DOES NOT FEEL SAFE, AND THAT IS THE REALITY FOR MANY OF THE VIEWERS, THEY ARE SAYING THEY DO NOT FEEL SAFE IN THEIR HOME, BUSINESS, COMMUNITY. AND THE REAL ANSWER IS THAT LABOUR HAS BEEN SOFT ON CRIME, AND THEY HAD ONE GOAL ONLY ― A 30% REDUCTION IN THE PRISON POPULATION. WHICH WOULD BE FINE IF THERE HAD BEEN A 30% REDUCTION IN CRIME, BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN, THERE'S BEEN AN HUNDRED PERCENT INCREASE IN RETAIL CRIME. WE'VE GOT NINE GANG MEMBERS FOR EVERY 10 POLICE OFFICERS, WE HAVE A RAM-RAID TWICE A DAY IN THIS COUNTRY. WE DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THIS ― THE PROBLEM IS THAT EVERY SIX MONTHS IT GETS MORE VIOLENT AND GRATUITOUS, AND WE START TO SAY THAT'S HOW IT IS. I DID NOT HEAR A SOLUTION ― A SLOGAN IS NOT A SOLUTION. WE'VE PUT 1800 EXTRA POLICE ON THE BEAT, WE'VE PUT IN PLACE A CIRCUIT BREAKER INITIATIVE. AND CRIME'S GOT WORSE. OK, GIVE ME YOUR SOLUTIONS. WE'RE GOING TO BACK THE POLICE AND TACKLE THE GANGS. YOU CUT THEIR FUNDING LAST TIME YOU WERE IN GOVERNMENT? WELL MATE, YOU ACTUALLY GAVE THEM FUNDING. YOU GAVE THEM $2.7 MILLION TO DO METH REHAB, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA. I THINK YOU'RE BOTH TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS. WE WANT TO BAN GANG PATCHES AND PUBLIC SPACES, GET POLICE POWERS OF DISPERSAL, WE GET TOUGH ON THE ILLEGAL GUNS THAT THEY HAVE, AND WE WILL MAKE BEING A GANG MEMBER AN AGGRAVATED SENTENCE IN SENTENCING. CONSEQUENCES FOR SERIOUS YOUNG OFFENDERS. AND WE WANT STRONGER SENTENCES. ON GANGS, WE HAD A SITUATION WHERE A GANG FUNERAL TOOK OVER A TOWN. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? NO IT IS NOT, SO WE HAVE CHANGED THE LAW TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE POLICE TO GO AFTER THE GANG MEMBERS. THE LAW HAS ONLY JUST BEEN CHANGED. YOU HAVE HAD SIX YEARS. THE POLICE HAVE ALREADY USED THE LAW CHANGE, THEY USED THAT LAW CHANGE THAT I HELPED SHEPHERD THROUGH, IN THE VERY CASE YOU MENTIONED. THAT'S RIGHT JESS, WE HAD A TOWN SHUT DOWN BECAUSE THE GANGS CAME TO TOWN. THE BUS SERVICES COULDN'T BE USED. SCHOOL GOT SHUT DOWN. WHY ARE THE RIGHTS OF NEW ZEALANDERS BEING― WE KNOW THE PROBLEMS, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOLUTIONS. ONE OF WINSTON PETERS' IDEA IS A PRISON JUST FOR GANG MEMBERS, WHICH WOULD MEAN THEY ARE NOT RECRUITED. WHAT YOU THINK THAT? I LIKE OUR IDEAS ― WE WILL TACKLE THE GANGS BY SAYING WE WILL SAY THIS IS NOT A LIFESTYLE WE WANT ANYONE TO GO DOWN. GANG MEMBERSHIP IS UP 70%. WE HAVE NINE GANG MEMBERS FOR EVERY 10 POLICE OFFICERS. WE NEED TO TELL THEM THAT THEY CANNOT WEAR GANG PATCHES, BECAUSE TO WEAR A PATCH YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION. WE WILL GET POLICE POWERS TO BREAK UP GANG MEMBERS WHO'RE BEING INTIMIDATING AND PUBLIC PLACES. AND WE WILL GO AFTER THE ILLEGAL GUNS THAT THEY ARE DRIVING A CRIME WITH. LET'S DISCUSS RAM-RAID'S ― YOU TWO ARE BOTH DADS, IS IT ACCEPTABLE THAT 7-, 10-YEAR-OLDS ARE COMMITTING THESE CRIMES? IT IS SHOCKING AND WE NEED TO BREAK THE CIRCUIT ― I ASKED FOR A LIST OF THE KIDS WERE INVOLVED AND REPEAT RAM-RAIDING, AND 90% OF THEM LIVE IN A HOUSEHOLD WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN PRISON. THIS IS A CYCLE OF CRIME ― WE HAVE TO BREAK THAT CYCLE. WE PUT IN PLACE THE CIRCUIT BREAKER INITIATIVE, THREE QUARTERS OF THE KIDS WHO'VE GONE INTO THAT INITIATIVE HAVE NOT GONE TO REOFFEND. 80% OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE TO NATIONAL'S BOOT CAMPS WENT ON AND REOFFENDED. LET ME DISCUSS BOOT CAMPS, BECAUSE THE SERIOUS YOUNG OFFENDERS, TO GIVE JUDGES THE OPTION TO SEND THEM TO BOOT CAMP IS A GOOD THING. MILITARY LEADERS ARE OUR BEST LEADERS, THEY ARE MUCH BETTER THAN ORANGA TAMARIKI SUPERVISORS WE SAW ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO FIGHT. AND WE'RE GONNA PUT COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS IMBEDDED WITH THEM FROM DAY ONE. WE SPOKE TO AN EXPERT WHO RAN JOHN KEYS BOOT CAMPS. AND HE AGREED THAT THE REOFFENDING RATE WAS 83%. THEY DO NOT WORK, DO THEY? I THINK WE CAN MAKE THEM BETTER, WE ARE TAKING THEM OFF A VERY SUCCESSFUL PROGRAMME WHICH HAS SOME REALLY GOOD CORE PRINCIPLES. WE WANT TO EMBED COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS. DO YOU HAVE DIFFERENT EVIDENCE THAT THEY WORK NOW? ARE YOU SAYING THEY WORK NOW AND THEY DID NOT BEFORE? I THINK WE CAN MAKE THEM WORK INCREDIBLY WELL, BECAUSE WE NEED POWERFUL TARGETED INTERVENTION. I AM NOT PREPARED TO WRITE THEM OFF. WE HAVE TO TEACH THEM RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES. BOOT CAMPS HAVE A NEARLY 80% FAIL RATE. MY INITIATIVE HAS AN 80% SUCCESS RATE. THAT IS THE SORT OF INITIATIVE WE NEED TO BACK, BECAUSE IT TURNS THESE KID'S LIVES AROUND. I WANT TO DO SOME QUICK FIRE. CHRIS HIPKINS, HAVE YOU HAD A SPEEDING TICKET? BOTH: YES. IS NOW THE TIME FOR NEW ZEALAND TO BECOME A REPUBLIC? BOTH: NO. SHOULD WE HAVE A NEW FLAG? I VOTED YES. LASER KIWI? NOT THAT ONE. I SUPPORTED A NEW FLAG. COMPULSORY TE REO MAORI IN SCHOOLS? IT SHOULD BE UNIVERSAL. NO, BUT WE NEED MORE TE REO TEACHERS. UNIVERSAL? EVERY KID SHOULD HAVE THE OPTION. CELLPHONES IN SCHOOLS, BANNING THEM? SCHOOLS CAN DO THAT. BAN THEM SO THEY CAN FOCUS ON LEARNING. HAVE YOU GONE TO A CHURCH SERVICE THIS YEAR? YES, MANY OF THEM. YES, I HAVE. ALL AS PART OF CAMPAIGNING? BOTH: YES. I'VE BEEN TO A LOT OF TEMPLES. SHOULD WE CONTINUE TO BAN NUCLEAR POWERED SHIPS. BOTH: YES. SHOULD CANNABIS BE DECRIMINALISED? BOTH: NO. SHOULD VAPES BE PRESCRIPTION ONLY? BOTH: NO. IS THE HEALTH SYSTEM BROKEN? NO. YES. WE'LL TALK MORE ABOUT HEALTH SOON. WE WILL TAKE A HARD LOOK ABOUT WHAT IS NEXT ON OUR HEALTH SYSTEM. WE'RE BACK WITH THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE WITH LABOURS CHRIS HIPKINS AND NATIONALS CHRIS LUXON. LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO IT. I WANT A GUARANTEE FROM BOTH OF YOU THAT YOU WILL NOT MAKE ANY CUTS TO HEALTH OR EDUCATION IF YOU APPLY MINISTER. I HAVE SAID VERY STRONGLY WE WILL INCREASE SPENDING ON HEALTH AND EDUCATION EACH AND EVERYYEAR UNDER MY GOVERNMENT. I WANT TO PUT TO YOU THAT WHEN CHRIS SAYS THERE IS NO CRISIS IN HEALTH CARE I THINK THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS. DO YOU GUARANTEE NO CUTS TO HEALTH AND EDUCATION? I CAN GUARANTEE THAT AND OUR TRACK RECORD SPEAKS FOR THAT. NATIONAL SAID WHEN THEY CAME INTO GOVERNMENT LAST TIME THAT THEY WOULD NOT CUT THAT. GUARANTEE THAT BOTH OF YOU WILL NOT MAKE ANY CUTS TO HEALTH OR EDUCATION, SET IN STONE? WE WILL INCREASE FUNDING EVERY YEAR. CHRIS HIPKINS, AUSTRALIA IS STEALING ALL OF OUR HEALTH PROFESSIONALS OR A BIG CHUNK OF THEM AT THE MOMENT. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO ENTICE THEM TO STAY IN NEW ZEALAND? WE ARE GOING TO PAY THE MORE. WHEN WE CAME INTO GOVERNMENT, A GRADUATE NURSE COMING OUT OF POLITICS OR UNIVERSITY AND STARTING THEIR CAREER WOULD BE EARNING $49,000. THEY ARE NOW EARNING SEVEN $5000. THEY ARE NOW EARNING HUNDRED AND $6000 AT THE TOP OF THE SCALE. CHRIS LUXON CALLS THIS WASTEFUL SPENDING. I THINK IT IS AN INVESTMENT IN PEOPLE. I WOULD SOON HAVE 200 NURSES ON THE FRONT LINE THAN COMM STAFF IN THE BACK OFFICE. HOW WOULD YOU ATTRACT HEALTH PROFESSIONALS TO STAY HERE? THERE ARE 360 NEW ZEALAND STUDENTS STUDYING IN AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITIES AND THEY HAVE LEFT NEWZEALAND BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT GET PLACES AND MEDICAL SCHOOLS HERE. IT IS LIKELY THEY WILL BUILD THEIR PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE OVER IN AUSTRALIA. I WANT TO EXPAND PLACES IN OTAGO AND AUCKLAND; OPEN A THIRD SCHOOL WHICH WILL BE A GRADUATE PROGRAM AND EMPHASISE TRAINING IN REGIONAL NEWZEALAND. THE RESEARCH SAYS THAT IF YOU GET PLACEMENT IN REGIONAL HOSPITALS... THESE ARE LONG-TERM THINGS. I AM VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THAT IS PART OF INCREASING FUNDING FOR EDUCATION AND HEALTH, SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DO. WE HAVE TO HOME GROW OUR WORKFORCE. PART OF THAT IS TRAINING MORE DOCTORS AND RETAINING... WITH GPS, GETTING AN APPOINTMENT IS REALLY TOUGH. HOW LONG DID YOUR LAST APPOINTMENT WITH A GP TAKE? I WAS ABLE TO GET APPOINTMENT RELATIVELY SPEEDILY. BUT IN SOME PLACES IT IS VERY HARD TO GET A GP APPOINTMENT. WAS THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE A PRIME MINISTER? WAS ACTUALLY FOR ONE OF MY KIDS. I ACKNOWLEDGE IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY CAN BE HARD TO GET AN APPOINTMENT. WE NEED TO TRAIN MORE DOCTORS. CHRISTOPHER IS RIGHT ON THE FACT THAT WE NEED TO TRAIN MORE DOCTORS BUT BUILDING A WHOLE NEW MEDICAL SCHOOL WILL TAKE TOO LONG. WILL YOU PAY GPS MORE? THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM TO PAY PEOPLE MORE. I JUST WANT TO GET THIS― HE COULD HAVE STARTED TO TRAIN MORE DOCTORS SIX YEARS AGO AND IT WOULD GREAT TO HAVE THOSEDOCTORS AVAILABLE TODAY. THE BEST TIME TO START TRAINING MORE DOCTORS IS TOMORROW BECAUSE WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF WE HAD A MEDICAL SCHOOL IN PLACE TODAY? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WENT TO A GP? AND DO YOU GET HOW HARD IT IS? A CAN TAKE UP TO A WEEK TO GET A PHYSICAL APPOINTMENT. I TEND TO DO ZOOMS WITH MY GP. MENTAL HEALTH ― I WILL COME TO YOU FIRST. $1.9 BILLION INTO MENTAL HEALTH. WHAT WILL YOU DO AND WHAT WILL YOU SPEND TO MAKE A MEANINGFUL DIFFERENCE IN THE SPACE? I UNDERSTAND MENTAL HEALTH ABOUT. MY MUM IS A PSYCHOTHERAPIST COUNSELLOR AND I HAVE GROWN UP AROUND THAT WORLD. I WANT TO HAVE A DEDICATED MINISTER OF MENTAL HEALTH SO IT IS NOT TREATED AS A SECOND-CLASSHEALTH ISSUE AND IS RIGHT THERE AT THE CABINET TABLE. WE WANT TO HAVE TARGETS ACROSS THE WHOLE― POWDER TARGETS WORK IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE WORKFORCE? HEAR ME OUT. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE MEASURING PEOPLE'S ACCESS AND SPEED TO ACCESS. WE HAVE A LOT MORE WORK TO DO WITH ACCESS. WILL YOU ADDRESS THAT OR ARE YOU MOVING ON? WE NEED TO ADDRESS THE WORKFORCE. WE ARE SHORT PSYCHOLOGISTS AND PSYCHIATRISTS. BUT WE CAN POWER UP OUR COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS. GUMBOOT FRIDAY ― GET MONEY TO THEM. I WAS THERE WHEN YOU ANNOUNCE 1.9 BILLION DOLLARS IN SPENDING BUT HAS NOT SEEMED TO MAKE DIFFERENCE. WE HAVE BEEN PUTTING COUNSELLORS IN SCHOOLS. ACCESS AND CHOICE, GETTING A REFERRAL TO A FREE MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELLING SESSION ― THAT HAS DELIVERED OVER A MILLION COUNSELLING SESSIONS NOW. IT TOOK A WHILE TO GET THAT ESTABLISHED. OF COURSE IT TOOK TOO LONG BUT YOU CANNOT BUILD SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING AND IT TAKES TIME TO BUILD THE SYSTEMS. ANOTHER THING YOU TALKED ABOUT A BIT DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN ON THE ROAD IS THE ISSUE OF DENTAL. IT IS A BIG ISSUE AND LABOURS PROMISING FREE DENTAL CARE FOR THOSE UNDER 30. HERE IS A CLINICAL DIRECTOR FOR HOSPITAL AND SPECIALIST INDUSTRY. MY NAME IS HUGH. I AM A HOSPITAL DENTIST. THE ORAL HEALTH SITUATION IN NEW ZEALAND IS APPALLING AND WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING. SUGAR IS A KEY ELEMENT IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF TOOTH DECAY. IT IS A KEYRING FACTOR IN MEDICAL CONDITION SUCH AS DIABETES, AND CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE AND CANCER, SOME CANCERS. MY QUESTION TO THE PARTIES AND TO THE LEADERS IS ― WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THE SUGAR EPIDEMIC IN OUR COMMUNITIES? WE ARE HEARING FROM AN EXPERT THERE. WHAT ABOUT A SUGAR TAX? WHAT ABOUT BANNING FIZZY DRINKS? WE CAN LOOK INTO THAT, BUT I THINK EDUCATION IS THE WAY IN WHICH WE HELP PEOPLE AND MAKE SMARTER CHOICES. YOU DON'T SOUND VERY ENTHUSED BY THE IDEA. A DENTAL POLICY IS AN INTERESTING ONE, BECAUSE ALL PARTIES WOULD LIKE TO EXPAND ON THAT. THE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS WHEN THERE PREVIOUSLY. I DON'T THINK I WOULD BAN SUGAR SCHOOLS. I WOULD MAKE SURE THAT WE WORK HARD ON EDUCATION TO MAKE HEALTHIER CHOICES ABOUT FOOD. I WOULD BAN FIZZY DRINKS IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS AND I THINK THEY SHOULD BE BANNED IN HIGH SCHOOLS. DO WE NEED TO LOOK AT THINGS LIKE A SUGAR TAX? YOUR SOLUTION AT THE MOMENT IS TO SPEND $390 MILLION ON DENTAL CARE AT THE OTHER END. SUGAR IS NOT THE ONLY THING THAT CAUSES TOOTH DECAY. I HAVE TARGETED THE UNDER THIRTIES FOR THE FIRST STAGE OF ROLLING OUT FREE DENTAL CARE BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IF WE CAN GET PEOPLE AT THAT AGE COHORT, IT IS AFFORDABLE FOR A FRACTION OF THE COST OF THE TAX CUTS... YOU PUMP A DOLLAR IN; YOU GET A DOLLAR 60 BACK. IN OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT THE REALITY IS THAT WE WOULD ALL LOVE TO DO IT BUT WE HAVE HIGHER PRIORITIES. TAX CUTS FOR YOU AND ME IS MORE IMPORTANT? HE IS PROMISING 20 MOBILE DENTAL CLINICS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THEY HAVEN'T DELIVERED ONE. SO I AM A BIT SCEPTICAL 30 DAYS OUT FROM AN ELECTION. AN EXPERT IN DENTISTRY IS SAYING, SUGAR IS A BIG PROBLEM, AND YET NEITHER OF YOU ARE PREPARED TO ADDRESS THAT. THE REALITY IS THAT THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IS IN CRISIS AND WE HAVE MAJOR CHALLENGES. WE ARE 1700 DOCTORS SHORT. WE WOULD ALL LOVE TO EXPAND FREE DENTAL AND THAT IS WHAT EVERY POLITICAL PARTY WANTS. AND WE DO KNOW THAT PROBLEM. LUXON, DO YOU THINK THAT MAORI AND PACIFIC PATIENTS SHOULD BE PRIORITISED OVER OTHER PATIENTS WITH SIMILAR CONDITIONS. MAORI DIE SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. AND WE HAVE TO WORK TO IMPROVE EVERY HEALTH OUTCOME. THE DELIVERY OF PUBLIC SERVICES SHOULD ALWAYS BE BASED ON THE NEED AND NOT ETHNICITY. MAORI AND PASIFIKA WAIT FOR LONGER FOR HEALTHCARE THAN OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS. THEY SHOULD NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY THE HEALTH SYSTEM WHICH THERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS THAT GAP AND WHY HAVE YOU NOT DONE MORE TO ADDRESS THAT? WE ARE ADDRESSING THAT AND UNFORTUNATELY OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES ARE CHOOSING TO USE THAT FOR A RACE-BASED POLITICS. THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT. YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO COME THROUGH THE LENS OF PEOPLE'S NEEDS AND NOT THEIR ETHNICITIES. THAT IS THE DEAL HERE. WHY SHOULD PACIFIC PEOPLE WITH THE SAME NEED WAIT FOR LONGER THAN OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS. THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT. THEY HAVE THE SAME NEED AND THEY ARE WAITING LONGER. WHY IS THAT FAIR? YOU IDENTIFY THE NEED OF PEOPLE BASED ON HOW LONG THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE LIST... ISN'T THE HEALTH AUTHORITY A GOOD EXAMPLE OF CO-GOVERNANCE? NO. WE WILL SCRAP THE MULTI HEALTH AUTHORITY BECAUSE IT IS CREATING MORE BUREAUCRACY. EVERY SINGLE HEALTH OUTCOME HAS GONE BACKWARDS UNDER CHRIS HIPKINS. DOESN'T HE HAVE A POINT? THE NATIONAL PARTY USED TO SUPPORT BY MAORI FOR MAORI SYSTEM. IT IS ALLOWING MAORI TO HAVE CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN HEALTHCARE. THERE IS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OFTEN NON- MAORI IF WE DO THAT. I WANT TO DELIVER BETTER OUTCOMES FOR MAORI AND NON MAORI. I WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS AFTER THE BREAK. THAT SETS US UP WELL FOR TALKING ABOUT CO-GOVERNANCE AND WHAT IS IT MEAN TO YOU. WE WILL FINDOUT. WELCOME BACK THIS IS THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE ― AND WE HOPE TONIGHT'S DISCUSSION IS HELPING YOU DECIDE WHO WOULD LIKE TO LEAD THE COUNTRY. I WANT TO DISCUSS CO-GOVERNANCE, LUXON ― WHAT DOES CO-GOVERNANCE MEAN TO YOU? WE HAVE A GOOD UNDERSTANDING OF THE CO-GOVERNANCE IN OUR LAST GOVERNMENT. IN TERMS OF TREATY SETTLEMENT AND MANAGEMENT OF LOCAL RESOURCES, OFTEN WITH LOCAL AND DISTRICT COUNCILS, WHICH WORKED EXCEPTIONALLY WELL AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO THAT. THE ISSUE WAS THAT THE WORD CO-GOVERNANCE HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF WE DO NOT SUPPORT CO-GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC SERVICES, WE ARE ONE COUNTRY AND PUBLIC SERVICES SHOULD BE MADE AVAILABLE ON BASIS OF NEED. ONE PERSON ONE VOTE. I WANT TO TALK CHRIS, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU? IT MEANS SHARED DECISION-MAKING, AND MANY OF THE CO-GOVERNANCE ARRANGEMENTS ARE THE RESULT OF TREATY SETTLEMENT, AND THEY HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. SHARED DECISION-MAKING DOES NOT SOUND SCARY, WHY ARE PEOPLE SO NERVOUS? I DO NOT THINK THEY SHOULD BE. I THINK WE ARE STRONGEST AS A COUNTRY WHERE WE WORK TOGETHER, AND THE STRENGTHENING OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND MAORI IS A POSITIVE THING FOR NEW ZEALAND. WORKING TOGETHER TO RESOLVE EDUCATIONAL DISADVANTAGES, ETC. I BELIEVE AS A POSITIVE THING. CHRIS FINLAYSON CALLS IT CO-MANAGEMENT, ABOUT SHARING RESPONSIBILITY. THERE ARE SOME GREAT EXAMPLES THINKING ABOUT THE VOLCANIC CONES THAT HAVE BEEN MANAGED IN THAT CONTEXT, BUT WHAT WE DO NOT NEED AS TWO SEPARATE SYSTEMS CREATING TWO BUREAUCRACIES. WE SHOULD HAVE CHARTER SCHOOLS WITH ANYONE EDUCATION SYSTEM. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT BY MAORI, FOR MAORI IS A GOOD SOLUTION? WE INVENTED IT IN THE NATIONAL PARTY. WILL NOT CREATE TWO SYSTEMS. WHY NOT WITH HEALTH? BECAUSE IT CREATES MORE BUREAUCRACY. THINGS ARE NOT WORKING AT THE MOMENT. EVERYTHING IS BROKEN. I THINK WE CAN AGREE THERE ARE PROBLEMS, WHY NOT TRY SOMETHING NEW? WANT TO TRY AND TURBOCHARGE, IS USING COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS, IN THE CONTEXT OF A SINGLE SYSTEM. THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY IS NOT TWO SEPARATE SYSTEMS. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? HAVE ONE SYSTEM WITH A DELIVERY MECHANISM THAT INVOLVES MAORI HEALTH PROVIDERS. HOW IS THAT NOT A SEPARATE SYSTEM? WE CAN HAVE THE COHERENCE OF ONE SYSTEM, WHICH WE DO. AND WE HAVE COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS TO GET TO THOSE PEOPLE. THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY DOES THAT. ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT HOW MUCH WOULD COST TO WIND THEIR BACK? THE REPORT ALREADY SAYS IT DOES NOT WORK, THAT THERE IS NOT A GOOD PLAN AND IT IS NOT DELIVERING. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE? IT IS ONLY JUST BEGINNING. IT IS ONLY JUST BEGINNING. MANY ORGANISATIONS HAVE TEETHING TROUBLES. WE ARE DEALING WITH SYSTEMIC ISSUES IN OUR HEALTH SYSTEM, MAORI HAVE NOT HAD THE SAME ACCESS, IT WILL TAKE TIME TO BUILD THE CAPACITY OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM. I AM COMMITTED TO DOING THAT, I DO NOT THINK IT IS FAIR TO CAN SIGN MILDLY TO POORER HEALTH OUTCOMES. ON THE WAY TO HAVE ONE OF THE LOWEST RATES OF SMOKING. IF YOU ARE PM, LUXON, DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO GOVERN FOR EVERYONE. WHAT WILL YOU OFFER MAORI? I WANT TO STRENGTHEN THEIR PARTNERSHIP, WHICH IS WHY BEEN MEETING WITH IWI LEADERS. THEY WANT TO SOLVE AND IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF THE PEOPLE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVE, WHICH HAS A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR PARTIES. WE BELIEVE IN LOCAL PEOPLE ON THE GROUND. WE DO NOT WANT TO BUILD MASSIVE CENTRALISATION, LIKE CHRIS WANTS TO DO. HE TOOK 16 POLYTECHNICS AND SMASH THEM TOGETHER. YOU SUPPORTED THAT. NOT THE WAY THAT YOU IMPLEMENTED IT. HE TOOK 20 DHBS, WHICH HE RESTRUCTURED, THAT IS WHAT HE BELIEVES. WE WILL DO MORE QUICK-FIRE ― IT IS SO WELL LAST TIME. BILINGUAL ROAD SIGNS? BOTH: YES. SHOULD NEW ZEALAND CHANGE ITS NAME TO AOTEAROA. NO. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. IT SHOULD BE BY REFERENDUM, BUT I WOULD NOT PROPOSE ONE, THERE IS NO NEED. SHOULD NEW ZEALAND PROVIDE FREE LUNCHES TO ALL STUDENTS? YES WE SHOULD, WE NEED TO TARGET IT. WE SHOULD TARGETED TO STUDENTS THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY TARGETING IT TO. 4 YEAR TERM? I THINK I HAVE APPETITE FOR THAT. I DO NOT HAVE APPETITE FOR THAT. YES I BELIEVE IN A FOUR YEAR TERM. PERSONALLY, WOULD YOU BE HAPPY TO PAY WEALTH TAX? NO, IT WOULD BE A WRECKING BALL. I DO NOT THINK IT IS THE WAY TO GO. SURE TRANS PEOPLE BE ALLOWED IN SPORT? BOTH: THAT IS A DECISION FOR THE SPORTING BODIES. TAX FOR VACANT HOUSES? BOTH: NO. HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU BOUGHT YOUR FIRST HOME? BOTH: 24. BOTH OF YOU ARE PROUD HOMEOWNERS, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE THAT A REALITY FOR MORE NEW ZEALANDERS? ONE IN THREE KIWI HOUSEHOLDS ARE RENTERS, IT IS A SOBERING STATISTIC, FOR A COUNTRY WHOSE NATIONAL IDENTITY HAS BEEN TIED TO HOMEOWNERSHIP. HOW WILL YOU BRING HOUSING PRICES DOWN? WE NEED TO BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF THE HOUSING CRISIS ― WE ARE BUILDING AROUND 40,000 HOUSES A YEAR, AND WE HAVE BUILT 13,000 NEW STATE HOUSES, PUBLIC HOUSE RENTALS. WE NEED TO KEEP UP THE MOMENTUM, AND BUILD OUR WAY OUT OF THE CRISIS. THAT IS HOW WE GIVE PEOPLE A STEP UP TO THE PROPERTY LADDER. YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE A GOOD TRACK RECORD? KIWIBUILD IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT? IT WAS AN UNREALISTIC PROMISE ― I HAVE REFOCUSED TO THE GOVERNMENT EFFORT TO PUBLIC HOUSES, AND MY PRIORITIES FIRST HOME BUYERS. WE HAVE TO KEEP UP THE MOMENTUM WITH BUILDING MORE HOUSES. ALLOWING FOREIGN BUYERS WOULD PUSH UP THE PRICES. LABOUR HAS BEEN AN ABJECT FAILURE ON HOUSES ― THERE'S BEEN A LACK OF SUPPLY IN ALL SECTORS, WE HAVE TO INCREASE SUPPLY AND BUILD MORE HOUSES. WE AGREE ON THAT ― THE WAY WE GO ABOUT DELIVERING THAT WILL BE DIFFERENT. COUNCILS WILL REZONE 30 YEARS WITH HOUSING GROWTH, AND WE WILL KNOW WHERE WE ARE MAKING THE GROWTH. WE WILL NEED INFRASTRUCTURE INTO THOSE DEVELOPMENTS, AND WE WILL USE TARGETED RATES, SO THAT OTHERS AREN'T SUBSIDISING NEW DEVELOPMENTS. THEN WE WILL INCENTIVISE COUNCILS TO GROW, WILL GIVE THEM 25,000 FOR EVERY HOUSE THEY BUILT OVER A FIVE-YEAR AVERAGE. IS IT OKAY SO MANY ARE RENTING? WE NEED TO BE A NATION OF HOMEOWNERS ― LUXON'S PRIORITY IS TAX CUTS FOR LANDLORDS, I WANT TO SUPPORT KIWIS INTO BUYING THEIR FIRST HOME, WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE BEEN BUILDING HOMES, BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE. AND WE WILL NOT SELL OFF STATE HOUSES LIKE THE LAST NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. IF THEY HAD BUILT HOUSES LIKE WE HAD, WE WOULD NOT HAVE A WAITING LIST. WE AGREE ON STATE HOUSES, BUT THE BUDGET TRACK RECORD, WE WILL USE A BETTER MIX OF HOUSING PROVIDERS, SUCH AS THE SALVATION ARMY, TO GET MORE STATE HOUSES BUILT. BUT THE PRIVATE RENTAL MARKET ― THE REALITY IS BY EXTENDING THE BRIGHT LINE TEST, RENTS HAVE GONE UP UNDER THE GOVERNMENT, THEY WERE ADVISED TO NOT DO THAT, BECAUSE IT ADDS COST TO LANDLORDS, AND INCREASES RENT. WE WANT TO UNWIND THE BRIGHT LINE TEST. I GUARANTEE THAT YOU WON'T SEE HUNDRED AND $80 AND INCREASE... WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOT PUTTING ANY DOWNWARD PRESSURE ON RENTS. I THINK THAT IS A NO. I WANT TO ASK YOU A MORE PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO OWN YOUR FIRST HOME AT 24? DO YOU REMEMBER THE SECURITY THAT GAVE YOU? HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT FOR KIWIS? CHRIS AND I WERE TALKING ABOUT IT IN THE BREAK AND I WAS SAYING, AMANDA WAS IN HER FIRST JOB AS A TEACHER AND I WAS AT UNIVERSITY, ALL OF A SUDDEN THE INTEREST RATES WENT UP AND I REMEMBER SITTING THERE WITH OUR TV ON A BOX AND ONE DECKCHAIR BETWEEN US. IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY STRESSFUL MOMENT. DO YOU KNOW AND REMEMBER WHAT THAT SECURITY FELT LIKE WHEN YOU BOUGHT YOUR OWN HOME? YOU KNOW WHERE YOU HAVE A BASE. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUNG NEW ZEALAND FAMILY STARTING UP FOR THE FIRST TIME GETTING TO EXPERIENCE THAT SAME FEELING. I WANT THIS TO BE A NATION OF HOMEOWNERS. THAT'S WHY I DON'T THINK MAKING LIFE BETTER FAR LANDLORDS THROUGH TAX BREAKS SHOULD BE A PRIORITY. THE MAJORITY OF LANDLORDS ARE MUM AND DAD INVESTORS WHO HAVE ONE OR TWO RENTAL PROPERTIES THEY ARE NOT EVIL PROPERTY SPECULATORS AS CHRIS LIKES TO POSITION THEM AS. THEY ARE PROBABLY MEMBERS OF THE LABOUR PARTY TO HAVE SOMETHING GOING FOR THEIR RETIREMENT. WE ARE SEEING AN ACCUMULATION OF LANDLORDS. WE ARE GETTING MORE MEGA LANDLORDS NOW. AND LUXON'S PRIORITY IS TO GIVE THEM TAX BREAKS WHICH HE HAS ADMITTED THEY WILL NOT BE PASSING ON TO THE TENANTS. WE NEED TO BUILD MORE HOUSES AND HAVE MORE AFFORDABLE STATEHOUSE RENTALS. THAT'S WHY WE ARE FOCUSED ON BUILDING. WE HAVE GOT A YOUNG MUM WHO IMMIGRATED HERE AND SHE WANTED TO HEAR AN ANSWER FROM BOTH OF YOU. I HAVE BEEN LIVING IN NEW ZEALAND FOR THE PAST 14 YEARS AND HAVE TWO KIWI BORN DAUGHTERS. WHAT IS ONE POLICY YOU CAN IMPLEMENT THAT WILL MAKE NEW ZEALAND A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN IN 10 YEARS TIME? WHAT DO YOU SAY TO ALVA? I WOULD SAY FREE DENTAL CARE IS THE ONE POLICY I WOULD BE PROUD TO CAMPAIGN ON THAT WOULD MAKE NEW ZEALAND A BETTER PLACE. LOOKING AFTER KIWIS' DENTAL CARE WILL HAVE HUGE LIFE BENEFITS FOR PEOPLE. DID DENTAL HEALTH WILL BE BETTER THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES. IT IS AFFORDABLE AND WILL MEAN WE WILL SEE FEWER PROBLEMS LATER IN LIFE. LUXON? WHAT WE NEED IS A WORLD-CLASS EDUCATION SYSTEM BECAUSE THAT WILL SET HER UP FOR ANYTHING SHE WANTS TO DO. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO ME AND WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN FOR HER TOO. STAY WITH US. THE MOST PRESSING ISSUES FACING THE WORLD IS THE FINAL TOPIC OF OUR DEBATE. SIMON COURT TOLD A PRE-ELECTION DEBATE THAT THERE IS NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY. IS HE RIGHT? WE WILL FIND OUT FROM THE LEADERS AFTER THE BREAK. YOU ARE WATCHING THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE AND I'M HERE WITH CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRIS LUXON. I WANT TO PUT A QUESTION TO BOTH OF YOU NOW. I WILL START WITH YOU, CHRIS LUXON. DO WE HAVE A CLIMATE EMERGENCY, AND HOW SERIOUS IS IT? YES WE DO AND IT IS VERY SERIOUS AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE DEEPLY COMMITTED TO DELIVERING ON THE COMMITMENTS THAT WE HAVE MADE. NET 0 BY 2050. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT? WE HAVE A CLIMATE EMERGENCY AND THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I HAVE BEEN CLEAR THAT WE NEEDTO FOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO, AND GET OUR EMISSIONS DOWN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. THAT IS THE WAY WE WILL TACKLE CLIMATE CHANGE. I KNOW CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND NATIONAL HAVE SIGNED UP TO THE 2050 WE ARE COMMITTED TO THE GOALS BUT NOT THE WAY THAT THIS GOVERNMENT IS COMMITTED TO THEM. THE FIRST THING WE WILL DO AS DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY IN THIS COUNTRY. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT TO MAKE THE TRANSITION FOR TRANSPORT AND MANUFACTURING. DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DO IT OR YOU KNOW YOU CAN DO IT? IF WE DO THAT WE TAKE A THIRD OF OUR EMISSIONS OFF THE TABLE. BUT WE HAVE AN ABUNDANT SUPPLY OF THERMAL AND WIND IN THIS COUNTRY. WE ARE CONSENTING THEM TO SLOWLY. THE NATIONAL PARTY SAID THEY WOULD DO AWAY WITH THE BAN ON OFFSHORE GAS AND OIL EXPLORATION. IN 2021, YOU END UP IMPORTING A DECADES WORTH OF INDONESIAN COAL AND THE REASON WAS BECAUSE WE HAD A DRY YEAR. SO WE ACTUALLY NEED GAS AS A TRANSITORY ENERGY SOURCE. THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE WORK OUR GOVERNMENT HAS DONE... JULY WAS THE HOTTEST MONTH THAT WE HAVE HAD. WE HAD CYCLONE GABRIELLE. EVEN THIS WEEK WE HAD SOME WILD WEATHER IN WELLINGTON AND THE SOUTH ISLAND. ARE YOU ACTING WITH ENOUGH URGENCY ON CLIMATE CHANGE? BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE SITTING AT HOME FEEL REALLY WORRIED. WE NEED EVEN MORE URGENCY WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND NOW WAS NOT THE TIME TO TAKE THE FOOT OFF THE ACCELERATOR. THE NATIONAL PARTY WANT TO KICK OUT DECISIONS AROUND AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS UNTIL THE NEXT DECADE. I DON'T THINK WE CAN AFFORD TO WAIT THAT LONG. IS NOT ONLY BAD FOR THAT ENVIRONMENT; IT'S BAD FOR THE ECONOMY. HE WAS A DILEMMA. OUR FARMERS FEED 40 MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND WE ARE AMONG THE MOST CARBON EFFICIENT. KNOCKING OFF 20 TO 25% OF THEM IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME LIKE CHRIS HAS... IT ONLY GOES TO A LESS EFFICIENT COUNTRY. WE RELY ON FARMERS AND YET WE HAVE TO REACH THIS TARGET. THERE IS A WAY THROUGH, BECAUSE ALL YOU ARE DOING IS SENDING THE PRODUCTION OFFSHORE TO ALESS EFFICIENT PLACE AND AS A RESULT YOU MAKE EVERY SINGLE NEW ZEALAND A POORER. WE HAVE TO GIVE OUR FARMERS ALL THE TOOLS AND TECHNOLOGIES WE CAN AND GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR THEGOOD STUFF THEY ARE DOING ON FARM. THEN WE INTRODUCE SENSIBLE AGRICULTURAL PRICING. IF YOU ARE TO BECOME― YOU WILL JUST WAIT TILL THE NEXT DECADE TO DO IT. IF YOU WILL BECOME THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER ONE ISSUE YOU WILL HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH HIS CLIMATE CHANGE, AND WHEN WE TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE SURVEY ABOUT THIS, ONLY HALF OF PEOPLE FEEL LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT ON THEM. THAT SEEMS LIKE A REALLY BIG PROBLEM, AND DON'T YOU NEED TO GET THE OTHER HALF OF NEW ZEALAND ON BOARD? WE DO, AND AS WE SAID WE WILL DO THAT THROUGH DOUBLING THE AMOUNT OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY, BUILDING AND NATIONWIDE EV CHARGING NETWORK. DO YOU AGREE THAT YOU HAVE TO GET THE OTHER HALF OF KIWIS ON BOARD? THEY DON'T GET IT. ABSOLUTELY BUT CUTTING THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT AND CUTTING THE NUMBER OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. THEY ARE PROPOSING TO WIND BACK ALL THE MEASURES WE HAVE PUT IN PLACE. CHRIS, YOU ALWAYS TALK ABOUT AND OUTCOME. OUR EMISSIONS HAVE GONE DOWN THREE YEARS IN A ROW AND YOU WANT TO CUT ALL THE THINGS WE HAVEDONE THAT HAVE DELIVERED THAT. EMISSIONS GOING DOWN IS A GOOD THING AND THAT IS WHAT WE BOTH NEED TO DO IN SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS OVER THE LONG-TERM. YOU HAVE GOT NO WAY OF DELIVERING. HERE IS AN EXAMPLE. WHAT WE NEED IN THIS COUNTRY IF WE WANT TO GET MORE ELECTRIC VEHICLES IS A NATIONWIDE EV CHARGING SYSTEM. RANGE ANXIETY IS THE MAJOR REASON. I WANT TO ASK A SIMPLE QUESTION ABOUT THIS ― DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THE WORLD YOU ARE LEAVING YOUR KIDS AND GRANDKIDS? YES, I DO, AND YOU AND HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE EXPENSES OF NEW ZEALAND IN RECENT TIMES TO SEE THAT. WE DON'T NEED TO FUND AN EV NETWORK, BECAUSE THE MARKET WILL DELIVER THAT. IS LIKE SAYING WE NEED PETROL STATIONS UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY. THIS IS A BIG ISSUE BECAUSE WE HAVE SCHOOLKIDS MARCHING IN THE STREETS OVER THIS. WHAT YOU SAY TO THEM SITTING AT HOME WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE? WHAT GUARANTEED DO YOU GIVE THEM THAT BOTH OF YOU TWO ARE GOING TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY? I THINK YOU ARE READING FROM THE CONVERSATION THAT WE ARE BOTH DEEPLY COMMITTED TO DELIVERING ON THE CLIMATE GOALS AND COMMITMENTS; THE WAY WE GO ABOUT DELIVERING THOSE ARE DIFFERENT. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLANNING GET THINGS DONE. WE HAVE A PROVEN TRACK RECORD OF REDUCING OUR EMISSIONS. EVERYONE CAN SEE WHAT OUR PLAN IS AND IT IS NOT JUST A BUNCH OF SLOGANS THAT ARE NOT GOING TO ACTUALLY REDUCE EMISSIONS. WHAT ARE YOU PERSONALLY DOING TO CHANGE YOUR LIFESTYLE? HAVE EITHER OF YOU CONSIDERED BEING VEGETARIAN IN THE PAST― I THINK I CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION, CHRIS HIPKINS, GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF SAUSAGE ROLLS I HAVE SEEN YOU EAT. WHAT ARE YOU DOING PERSONALLY? A COUPLE OF QUICK ANSWERS. WERE EMBRACED RECYCLING SOMETIME AGO, A DECADE AGO. WE WERE QUITE HARD ON THAT. I HAVE AN EV. I AM A RECYCLER. YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD MY WIFE AS BOBBY GOT THE MOST FAMOUS EV IN THE COUNTRY. IS CLIMATE CHANGE OUR NUCLEAR FREE MOMENT? IT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING WE HAVE TO TAKE INCREDIBLY SERIOUSLY― IS THAT OUR NUCLEAR FREE MOMENT? I DON'T REACT TO BUMPER STICKERS AND HEADLINES. AT THE END OF THE DAY― IT IS A MAJOR CRISIS AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE DEAL WITH IT WITH URGENCY BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN. CHRIS HIPKINS, AS IS OUR NUCLEAR FREE MOMENT? YES, AND WE HAVE A CONCRETE PLAN THAT IS DRIVING EMISSIONS DOWN AND THE NATIONAL PARTY WANT TO STOP EVERY ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT IS DRIVING EMISSIONS DOWN. I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD ON THIS FOR FAIRNESS AND BALANCE ― WHAT YOU SAY IN RESPONSE TO CHRIS HIPKINS? I DON'T THINK GIVING HUNDRED AND $40 MILLION TO A COMPANY THAT IS MAKING $2.1 BILLION PROFIT IS A BIG CORPORATE IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I THINK BIG CORPORATE SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND DELIVER THEIR COMMITMENTS ON CLIMATE CHANGE THEMSELVES, AND THEY SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO DO THAT HEAVILY. ANY CEO WATCHING THIS, YOU NEED TO GET GOING. AND IF THEY DON'T? THEY WILL FACE THE REALITY WHICH WILL BE BAD BUSINESS AND THEY WILL GET PUNISHMENT THROUGH THE ETS SYSTEM AS WELL. SO WE'RE JUST RELYING ON CORPORATE GOODWILL TO REDUCE? THE LAST WORD TO CHRIS LUXON ― I WOULD NOT GIVE HUNDRED AND $40 MILLION IN TAXPAYERS MONEY TO CORPORATES. THAT IS THE END OF THE DEBATE. CHRIS HIPKINS, CHRIS LUXON, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TONIGHT. I HAD A GREAT TIME AND I HOPE YOU HAVE TOO. THEY WILL FACE OFF AGAIN TWELFTH OF OCTOBER AND THAT IS A FEW DAYS UP IN THE ELECTION. WHO DO YOU THINK WON TONIGHT'S DEBATE? I COULDN'T POSSIBLY COMMENT OTHER THAN TO SAY I THINK THERE WAS A CLEAR STANDOUT AND HER NAME WAS JESSICA MUTCH MCKAY. YOU WERE OUTSTANDING. I WILL SLIP YOU THE $20. WE WILL BE BACK WITH AN EXPERT PANEL OF POLITICAL ANALYSTS. YOU CAN PUT YOUR FEET UP. (APPLAUSE) KIA ORA ― WELCOME BACK, WE HAVE HAD PLENTY TO TAKE IN. SO TO HELP YOU MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL, TO DISSECT HOW WELL BOTH LEADERS DID, I AM JOINT BY AN EXPERT PANEL. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. WAKE ME UP! IT WAS BORING. YOU CAN'T SAY THAT. THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL OR VERBAL ABUSE, IT WAS VERY MILD. THAT IS THE TROUBLE. I DEFINITELY THINK THAT CHRIS HIPKINS COULD HAVE BROUGHT MORE FIGHT. IT STARTED OFF QUITE FIERY, BUT HIT A LULL. I THINK WE SAW IF I UP AGAIN AT THE END. TO USE A RUGBY WORLD CUP ANALOGY, CHRIS HIPKINS NEEDED TO WIN THIS OUT RIGHT, AND I THINK IT WAS CLOSE TO A DRAW. I THINK CHIPPY WAS AT HIS BEST WHEN HE WAS CHIPPING, BUT HE GAVE TOO MUCH FREE RUN TO LUXON EARLY IN THE DEBATE, THERE WERE QUITE DISTINCT COMMUNICATION STYLES, AT LEAST IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE DEBATE. WHILE WATCHING A BACKSTAGE, THERE WAS SOMETHING YOU NOTICED. DID YOU THINK LUXON WAS MORE ASSERTIVE? MUCH MORE ASSERTIVE, INTERRUPTING IT EVERY CHANCE HE COULD GET, I WONDER IF CHRIS HIPKINS WAS STRATEGY ON HIS PART, WE HAVE SEEN HIM FIERY ON THE CAMPAIGN, PERHAPS, BASED ON RECENT POLLS, AROUND WHO THE PUBLIC FEELS AS BEING MORE NEGATIVE, HOW DID NOT WANT TO COME INTO HOT. THERE WAS NO UP THE WAHS MOMENT, I THINK WHAT CHRIS HIPKINS TRIED TO DO, WAS BE TOO MILD AND MANNERED, AND ENDED UP CHASING LUXON. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF EXCHANGES WE WANT TO REFLECT ON, IT WAS INEVITABLE THAT THE TALK OF NATIONAL'S TAX PLAN WOULD ENTER THE DEBATE. THIS IS A THING ABOUT THE NATIONAL PARTY, IT IS ABOUT MARKETING AND SPIN. NATIONAL CAN'T SAY HOW THEY WILL PAY FOR IT. WE THINK WE CAN SELL HOUSES TO FOREIGNERS ON A $3 MILLION AVERAGE, AND A 15% TAX, THAT ADDS UP. THAT HAS BEEN VERIFIED BY INDEPENDENT ECONOMISTS. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THIS ISSUE ― HOW DO YOU THINK LUXON NAVIGATED THAT? THE WHOLE SECTION WAS PROBABLY A LOSE LOSE. HIPKINS DID NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT HIS SIGNATURE GST POLICY, LUXON WAS TRYING TO FRAME HIM ON THAT. LUXON'S NUMBERS DO NOT ADD UP UNLESS YOU SELL HALF OF AUCKLAND TO FOREIGNERS, BUT HAS PREPARED LINES WERE VERY CONTROLLED, AND HIPKINS LET HIM GET THEM OUT. AND IF THAT WAS A TACTICAL ERROR, THAT WAS IT. YOU NEED TO TURN OVER. I'M NO EXPERT ON HOW IT LOOKS AT HOME, BUT I HAVE BEEN OWNED FOR PURSUING PEOPLE WHEN THEY DON'T ANSWER QUESTIONS. WHEN CHRIS HIPKINS WAS ASKED ABOUT GST, HE DID NOT MENTION IT, HE IMMEDIATELY PIVOTED. WHEN LUXON WAS ASKED WHAT HAPPENS IF THE REVENUE DOES NOT COME IN FOR THE TAX CUTS, IMMEDIATELY SHIFTED THE CONVERSATION TO AN AREA HE WAS MORE COMFORTABLE. BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH DO NOTHING POLICIES, THEY DO NOT GRAB PEOPLE. BUT THEY ARE THE CENTREPIECE POLICIES. AND IT WAS QUITE DAMAGING FOR HIPKINS― LUXON TOOK A HIT AT THE GST POLICY, AND HIPKINS ALLOW THAT TO GO UNCHALLENGED, HE DID NOT HIT BACK OR TACK ON OTHER POLICIES, THE WHOLE PACKAGE FOR FAMILY, SUCH AS NATIONAL HAS DONE FOR THE SQUEEZED MIDDLE. BOTH THE LEADERS ARE MISSING THE BOAT, BECAUSE OF THE POLICIES ARE MISSING THE BOAT. TO GET NEW ZEALAND THROUGH THE PANDEMIC WE HAD TO PUMP MONEY INTO THE ECONOMY, WHICH HAS BENEFITED PROPERTY OWNERS AND NOT THE OTHERS. MOST PEOPLE WANT A CAPITAL GAINS TAX, NEITHER ARE OFFERING REAL TAX REFORM. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, THAT IS WHY PEOPLE FEEL THIS WAY, THIS IS A SNORE. THE COST OF LIVING AND STATE OF THE ECONOMY AS A DEFINING ISSUE, BUT HAVING BEEN IN THE HEADLINES RECENTLY, CRIME IS AN ISSUE ― BOTH PARTIES POLICIES VARY. THERE'S BEEN A 30% INCREASE IN VIOLENT CRIME, 100% INCREASE IN RETAIL CRIME, THERE ARE NINE GANG MEMBERS FOR EVERY 10 POLICE OFFICERS. WE PUT IN PLACE THE CIRCUIT BREAKER INITIATIVE BECAUSE WE NEED TO BREAK THAT CYCLE. THREE QUARTERS HAVE NOT GONE ON TO REOFFEND. 80% OF THE KIDS WERE GONE TO BOOT CAMPS WENT ON AND REOFFENDED. THIS IS AN AREA THAT LABOUR MAY HAVE FELT VULNERABLE. I THOUGHT CHIPPY WAS VERY GOOD IN TERMS OF HITTING BACK. THE KEY FOR LUXON WAS THAT HE GOT HIS LINES OUT, EVEN THOUGH TWO RAM-RAID'S EVERY DAY IS BOLLOCKS, HE GOT HIS LINES OUT AND HE LOOKED ASSERTIVE. THOSE SHORT SHARP SNAPPY LINES, CHRIS HIPKINS HAD VERY LONG WINDED WAFFLING LINES, AND LOSES PEOPLE AT HOME. AND I WILL SAY THAT HAVE CANS WAS STRONG ON HEADING BACK ON THE BOOT CAMPS, AND HEADING BACK ON THE FAIL RATE. WHEREAS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS TRAILING HAS AN 80% SUCCESS RATE. THAT WAS ONE DEFINING LINE. I THINK NATIONAL WON THE CRIME SECTION BUT THEY USUALLY DO. A LOT OF POLICY DOES NOT STACK UP ON THE EVIDENCE, BUT THEY GOT THE LINES OUT. THIS IS THE SEGMENT WHERE LUXON SPOKE TO THE FAR RIGHT, HE IS TRYING TO PULL THEM BACK AND ON MORE ISSUES, BECAUSE HE IS WORRIED ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE ACT BOAT. HE WAS NOT GOING FOR THE CENTRE GROUND. THERE WERE SOME GREAT LINES BY HIPKINS, BUT NATIONAL CARRIED THE SEGMENT. HE WAS TALKING ABOUT BOOT CAMPS, ABOUT RAM-RAID'S, HE IS STOKING FEAR. CHRIS HIPKINS PULLED UP ON IT, SAYING YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF. AND LUXON REACTED TO THAT, WE I THINK THE MOMENTUM STARTED TO TURN BACK TO HIPKINS, BECAUSE HE DID ANKLE TAPPED HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF A MONOLOGUE. I'M NOT SURE I AGREE THAT BOOT CAMPS IS PANDERING TO THE FAR RIGHT, I THINK IT IS A STRETCH. BUT IN TERMS OF CRIME, CHRIS HIPKINS ― IT WAS QUITE TELLING, HE DID NOT HIT BACK WHEN HE DISCUSSED GREENS GANGS AND TE PATI MAORI, THIS IS A DOG WHISTLE AND HE LET IT SLIDE. IF YOU HAD BEEN IN CHRIS HIPKINS CHOOSE WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? I WOULD HAVE JUMPED DOWN THE CAMERA. WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, A LEADERS DEBATE? IT IS LIKE A BOXING MATCH, THAT IS THE WAY YOU PREP, IT IS A SPORT. A VERY IMPORTANT SPORT, BECAUSE THE ISSUES AFFECT EVERY VOTER, AND IN THIS ELECTION, AND THE COMBINED VOTE IS THE LOWEST EVER, BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT FEEL THAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY ADDRESSING THE PROBLEMS, AND SPEAKING OF THE PURPLE PARTY ― DID ANYONE NOTICE HIPKINS TIE? LUXON HAD A BOLD BLUE TIE, AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO WHAT PEOPLE ARE WEARING, BUT HIPKINS WAS NOT WEARING A RED TIME. LET'S NOT SPEND TOO LONG ANALYSING THE SARTORIAL CHOICES. THE QUICK-FIRE QUESTIONS ― BOTH OF THEM HAD ALMOST IDENTICAL ANSWERS ON ALMOST EVERYTHING. IF YOU NEEDED AN EDUCATION IN THE PURSUIT OF THE SO-CALLED MIDDLE VOTER IN NEW ZEALAND, THAT WAS IT FOR ME WHEN IT CAME TO THOSE QUICK-FIRE QUESTIONS. THEY ALMOST AGREED ON EVERYTHING. A COUPLE OF NEW THINGS CAME OUT OF IT ― CHRIS HIPKINS SAID HE WOULD SUPPORT BANNING FIZZY DRINKS AND HIGH SCHOOLS. CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAID THAT HE SUPPORTED HAVING FREE LUNCHES IN SCHOOLS. TARGETED. FOR EVERYBODY. THAT IS SOMETHING FOR A NEWSROOM TO FOLLOW-UP. HOW IMPORTANT IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CAMPAIGN, DAVID, IS THIS DEBATE RELATIVE TO OTHERS? TYPICALLY THIS IS THE HIGHEST VIEWERSHIP DEBATE OF THE CAMPAIGN. PEOPLE ESTIMATE AROUND 800,000 PEOPLE WATCH THIS. IT IS HUGE. IT IS A HUGE MOMENT AND LIKE I SAID AT THE START CHRIS HIPKINS NEEDS TO WIN THIS DEBATE. THERE ARE PARTS OF IT THAT HE DID NOT WIN. BUT ON POINTS, IT IS PRETTY CLOSE TO A DRAW, BECAUSE THEY VARIED SECTION BY SECTION. IT DOESN'T GIVE CHRIS HIPKINS THE MOMENTUM HE NEEDS. PLENTY MORE TO COME FROM OUR PANEL. STAY WITH US. WE COME BACK IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES. KIA ORA. WELCOME BACK. I AM WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL ANALYSING HOW CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND CHRIS HIPKINS DID IN THE FIRST LIVE DEBATE OF THIS 2023 ELECTION. I WANT TO GIVE YOU GUYS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ANSWER. HOW IMPORTANT AS THIS DEBATE ESPECIALLY FOR CHRIS HIPKINS TO GET SOME CUT THROUGH? HIPKINS ― IT HAS BEEN A CHALLENGING WEEK FOR HIM TO SAY THE LEAST. WHAT HAS GONE IN HIS FAVOUR IS THE FACT THAT IT HAS ALSO BEEN A CHALLENGING PAST WEEK FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON WITH THE ISSUES AROUND THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX. I THINK FROM A CAMPAIGN PERSPECTIVE, WHAT I HAVE NOTICED IS THAT BECAUSE CHRIS HIPKINS IS EXPERIENCED AS A POLITICIAN, HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO ABSORB THE PRESSURE OF THE CAMPAIGN, OF THE MEDIA SCRUTINY AND PUBLIC SCRUTINY IN TERMS OF THE POLLS A LOT MORE EASILY THAN CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS. TAU? I WOULD HAVE SAID THAT TONIGHT, I THINK THE NATS ARE LIKE... FRANCE IN THE OPENING GAME OF THE WORLD CUP. LABOUR ARE LIKE THE ALL BLACKS. THEY SORT OF MADE SOME MISTAKES. THEY LOOKED ALL RIGHT IN SOME PARTS. BUT MATE, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO THE NEXT ONE AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET DOWN AND DIRTY. UNLEASH WHATEVER THEY HAVE GOT IN THE TANK, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD AT THE MOMENT. KNOWING THAT THERE ARE POTENTIALLY A COUPLE OF HUNDRED THOUSAND VOTERS WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE MADE UP THEIR MINDS, ESPECIALLY IN THIS CAMPAIGN, IS THERE GOING TO BE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY FOR EITHER LEADER TO ASSERT THEMSELVES WHEN IT COMES TO LEADERSHIP AND COMMUNICATION? TO MORE LEADERS DEBATES AND THEY WILL BE IN THE MEDIA CAMPAIGNING HARD EVERY SINGLE DAY. BOTH OF THEM ARE HARD WORKERS AND RESILIENT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. THEY WILL LEAVE IT ALL ON THE TRACK. CHRIS HIPKINS HAS NO OTHER OPTIONS BUT TO BRING MORE MONGREL AND THE FIGHT TO THE NEXT DEBATE, BECAUSE HE WAS FAR TOO STANDOFFISH, AND HE ALLOWED CHRISTOPHER LUXON TO RUN FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND UNCHALLENGED, DELIVERING HIS MESSAGES ONE AFTER THE OTHER. YOU HAVE JUST GOT TO TACKLE. YOU KNOW CHRIS HIPKINS RELATIVELY WELL AND HE IS A SCRAPPER. HE IS TOUGH AND DETERMINED. I THINK HE HAS CAMPAIGNED PRETTY WELL. I THINK THE ISSUES FOR BOTH LABOUR AND NATIONAL ARE REALLY ― ARE THEY REALLY HAVING THE NAIL ON THE HEAD IN TERMS OF THE THINGS THAT KIWIS ARE WORRIEDABOUT? COST OF LIVING IS IMPORTANT BUT IT IS NOT THE WHOLE DEAL. PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT CLIMATE AND THE EMERGENCY SITUATION. THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE ECONOMY BEING ON TWO CYLINDERS, AND THEY ARE NOT HEARING COHERENT ANSWERS THAT THEY ARE BELIEVING FROM EITHER PARTY. THEIR COMBINED VOTERS ARE DOWN. CHRIS HIPKINS ESPECIALLY ― TAKE THE FOOTBALL ANALOGY AGAIN. HE HAS TO KICK IT OUT OF THE PARK. HE HAS GOT NOTHING TO LOSE. INTERESTINGLY, YOU THOUGHT, WHEN IT CAME TO FOREIGN POLICY, THAT QUESTION AROUND TAIWAN WAS ONE WHERE CHRIS HIPKINS SHONE. BECAUSE HE BELIEVED IN HIS ANSWER AND LOOKED LIKE A STATESMAN, SAME AS HE DID WITH HEALTH AND CO-GOVERNANCE. HE COMMUNICATED AND HIS BODY LANGUAGE THAT HE WAS DETERMINED, AND THAT IS WHAT I THINK WE NEED TO SEE MORE OF. HE HAS THE EXPERIENCE AND HAS BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THE DEPTH OF THOSE TWO ISSUES, PARTICULARLY AROUND THE HEALTH ISSUES. HE REALLY RAN RINGS AROUND CHRISTOPHER LUXON ON THAT ONE, AND THAT SHOWED THE EXPERIENCE THAT HE HAS. CHRISTOPHER LUXON TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE ISN'T A CAREER POLITICIAN AS IF THAT IS IN HIS FAVOUR, BUT THERE IS MERIT TO UNDERSTANDING the ISSUES AND HAVING THE EXPERIENCE AND I DON'T THINK WE HAD ENOUGH DEPTH FROM CHRISTOPHER LUXON. BACK TO THE SPORTS ANALOGY ― I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE DEBATE... THAT CHIPPY NEEDED TO WIN. I THINK HE COULD AFFORD TO LOSE IT OR DRAW IT. THE NEXT TWO ARE THE BIGGEST ONES, WHERE HE KNOWS THE SCORE. IT IS A BIT LIKE PENRITH VERSUS WARRIORS. WE KNEW THE SECOND STRING WARRIORS TEAM WASN'T GOING TO WIN, BUT BOY DID THEY TURN UP AGAINSTNEWCASTLE. THAT'S THE UP THE WAHS MOMENT. THAT'S WHAT CHIPPY NEEDS, BECAUSE I DO THINK THAT LUXON IS IN FRONT. HE IS ONLY HAD NINE MONTHS FOR THIS CAMPAIGN. HE HAS HAD 10 YEARS OF PRACTICE. BUT AS LEADER OF THE PARTY, YOU NEED TO HAVE ALL GUNS BLAZING FROM DAY ONE AND YOU NEED A POLICY PACKAGE TOO. I'M VERY GLAD, TAU, THAT YOU MANAGED TO GET UP THE WAHS IN HERE. BACK IN THE HEALTH PORTION OF THE DEBATE, THE TWO LEADERS WERE QUESTIONED ON OUTCOMES FOR NEW ZEALAND'S MAORI AND PASIFIKA PEOPLES. THE PRIORITISATION AND DELIVERY OF PUBLIC SERVICES SHOULD ALWAYS BE ON THE BASIS OF NEED, NOT ETHNICITY. MAORI AND PASIFIKA NEW ZEALANDERS WAIT FOR LONGER FOR HEALTHCARE THAN OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS. THE FACT THAT THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IS COMMITTED TO DOING SOMEONE ABOUT THAT IS A GOOD THING. MAORI AND PASIFIKA NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY THE HEALTH SYSTEM, WHICH THERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE PAST. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS THAT GAP AND WHY HAVE YOU NOT DONE MORE TO ADDRESS IT? UNFORTUNATELY OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES ARE CHOOSING TO USE IT FOR RACE-BASED POLITICS. THAT IS JUST NOT RIGHT. WE HAVE A SERIES OF PUBLIC SERVICES WE MAKE AVAILABLE TO ALL 5.2 MILLION PEOPLE ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. WERE ALWAYS COME THROUGH THE LENS OF PEOPLES NEEDS, NOT THEIR ETHNICITY YOU CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT BOTH OF THEM LOOKED QUITE STRONG. NAH, NAH, NAH. THIS IS ONE THAT REALLY GOT ME GOING INSIDE AND I WANTED TO JUMP IN AND SAY, COME ON! I HAVE HEARD THE LINES FROM LUXON SO MANY TIMES OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, AND AT LEAST THE LABOUR PARTY― I KNOW I AM A BIT BIASED ― BUT AT LEAST THE LABOUR PARTY HAVE... DECIDED THAT THEY NEED TO DO SOMETHING. YOU KNOW WHAT REALLY AMAZED ME ― 'BY MAORI FOR MAORI ' WAS INVENTED BY THE NATIONAL PARTY' AS OF TONIGHT. WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH. I THINK LABOUR IS VULNERABLE ON THE FACT THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD THE RIGHT INTENTIONS BUT THE DELIVERY HAS NOT BEEN THERE. CHRIS HIPKINS RESPONSE TO THAT IS TIME BACK THE EXPECTATIONS, BONFIRE THE POLICIES. THE RISK IS THAT IF YOU WANT TO VOTE NATIONAL, YOU WILL VOTE NATIONAL. I THINK IT IS A FINE LINE HE IS WALKING. YOU DID FEEL THAT ANNA DID COME ACROSS BUT WE NEED TO GIVE CHRIS LUXON SOME POINTS. HE HAS BEEN EXTREMELY WELL-PREPARED. IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE DEBATE, CHRIS HIPKINS DIDN'T DO IT. HIS STRENGTH WAS ON THAT HEALTH ISSUE ― HE WAS STRONG ― HE WAS SPEAKING TO HIS VOTER BASE, AND A LOT OF THAT VOTER BASE, THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE A SEPARATE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. THAT'S WHY THE NATIONAL PARTY IS PROMISING TO REAL THAT BACK-IN. HE HAS NO QUALMS ABOUT SAYING THOSE THINGS AND BEEN QUITE FOREFRONT. CHRIS HIPKINS HAD ENOUGH TO SLAP ON BUT NOT DAMAGE IN. I HATE TO REDUCE THESE THINGS THE BINARIES BUT EVERYONE ALWAYS DOES. WAS THERE A WIN OR LOSE IT IN YOUR EYES? HAS THIS MEANINGFULLY SHIFTED THE DIALOGUE? UM, NAH. THERE IS NO WINNER, NO LOSER. I ACTUALLY THINK IT IS A DRAW. I THINK IT'S ENOUGH― WE HEARD ENOUGH FROM EACH OF THEM, BUT THEY SORT OF SOUND THE SAME AND EVEN LOOK THE SAME. I AGREE WITH TAU AND THAT THE NEXT TWO POLITICAL DEBATES ARE GOING TO BE CRUCIAL FOR BOTH OF THEM AND THAT WASN'T NECESSARILY ONE THAT THEY NEEDED TO WIN. I DO NEED TO HANG OUT WITH THEM ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL SO NEED TO BE CAREFUL. BUT SUBSTANCE ― HIPKINS. IF WE ARE GOING TO GO WITH A BOXING ANALOGY, YOU WILL NOT WIN IT ON TECHNICALITY OR TECHNICAL POINTS. YOU WIN IT WITH THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF PEOPLE AT HOME. THAT SOUNDED LIKE A CLICHE. BUT THOSE QUICK SNAP LINES FROM LUXON PROBABLY RESONATED HIM A BIT MORE. FAR TOO MUCH ON SPORT, DON'T WE? CHRIS LUXON WON THE FIRST FEW ROUNDS AND CHRIS HIPKINS WON THE BACK FEW. HE NEEDED A KNOCKOUT BUT DID NOT GET IT. TACTICAL DRAW. STRATEGICALLY, LABOUR STILL NEEDS TO PULL SOME RABBITS OUT OF THE HAT. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND FOR THAT ANALYSIS OF THE FIRST LEADERS DEBATE ― TO OUR PANELLISTS HERE IN THE STUDIO. NGA MIHI. DON'T FORGET TO HAVE YOUR SAY ON HOW THE LEADERS PERFORMED ON OUR WEBSITE. THERE IT IS THERE. YOU CAN CATCH UP ON ANY MOMENTS YOU MISSED ON TVNZ PLUS. YOU CAN ALSO FIND OUT A VERSION WITH SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS. PO MARIE.