- THIS IS DECISION 2023 ` NEWSHUB NATION'S POWERBROKERS' DEBATE. WE ARE LIVE FROM CENTRAL AUCKLAND WITH FOUR LEADERS FACING OFF ON THE ISSUES THAT MATTER MOST. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO THE FIRST LEADERS' DEBATE FOR OUR MINOR PARTIES. BUT THESE ARE NO MINNOWS ` THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO WILL SHAPE THE NEXT GOVERNMENT OF NEW ZEALAND IN JUST 23 DAYS AND THEY ARE ALL VYING FOR YOUR VOTE. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT AND JOINING US TONIGHT IS WINSTON PETERS, DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER, MARAMA DAVIDSON AND DAVID SEYMOUR. TENA KOUTOU, WELCOME. - KIA ORA. - I WANT TO START TONIGHT WITH A BIG CONVERSATION ` ONE THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING OUT THERE IN TOWN HALLS AND IN OUR LOUNGES. IT IS ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR NATION. THIS ELECTION ` I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE ` FEELS DIFFERENT. THERE IS TENSION, THERE IS FRUSTRATION, THERE'S CONFLICT OVER RACE, IDENTITY; THERE IS MISINFORMATION. AND SO I WANT TO DIVE INTO THIS BIG STUFF STRAIGHT UP THE TOP. DAVID, I'LL START WITH YOU. ACT WANTS TO ABOLISH THE DEMOGRAPHIC GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS ` TE PUNI KOKIRI, THE MINISTRY FOR PACIFIC PEOPLES, THE MINISTRY FOR WOMEN ` WHY? - WELL, I THINK PART OF THE REASON IS THAT, TO FIX THE ECONOMY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SAVE A LOT OF MONEY IN WELLINGTON. FOR TOO LONG, GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING LESS WITH MORE. WE'RE GETTING WORSE RESULTS FOR MORE SPENDING. AND YET, PEOPLE OUT THERE HAVE TO DO MORE WITH LESS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT'S TAKEN ALL OF THEIR MONEY, BUT BESIDES THAT, WE SHOULD AIM FOR EVERY GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENT TO BE WORKING HARD FOR EVERY NEW ZEALANDER, AND YES, THAT OFTEN MEANS THAT YOU NEED TO TREAT PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY TO MEET THEM ON THEIR TERMS. I AM PROUD OF WHAT ACT DID WITH CHARTER SCHOOLS IN THAT AREA. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE PARTICULAR MINISTRIES THAT ARE ENTIRELY FOCUSED ON A DEMOGRAPHIC OF PEOPLE. I THINK ALL MINISTRIES SHOULD BE WORKING FOR ALL DEMOGRAPHICS ALL THE TIME. - DAVID, IF WE STRIP OUT IDENTITY OUT OF POLITICS, THAT IS NOT THE REAL WORLD, IS IT? WE'RE NOT, SORT OF, ECONOMIC UNITS. - YOU KNOW, KATE SHEPPARD ONCE SAID THAT ALL THAT SEPARATES, WHETHER IT IS` - JUST LIKE SHE'S VOTING FOR YOU. - YEAH, SHE MAY WELL BE. BUT SHE SAID ALL THAT SEPARATES, WHETHER IT BE RACE, RELIGION, CLASS OR SEX, IS INHUMAN AND MUST BE OVERCOME. FOR ME, THAT IS A BIG PART OF NEW ZEALAND'S DREAM OF EGALITARIANISM THAT NO MATTER HOW YOU'RE BORN OR WHO YOU ARE, YOU HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND DUTIES. IN FACT, THAT'S WHAT THE TREATY SAYS ` NGA TIKANGA KATOA RITE TAHI. THAT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD ALL SEEK TO LIVE BY. - MARAMA, I CAN SEE THAT YOU HAVE THOUGHTS ON THIS. (LAUGHTER) - DEBBIE: KIA KAHA. - THE FACT THAT DAVID DENIES THE DISCRIMINATION, THE INBUILT, SYSTEMIC RACISM THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ` I TOO WOULD LOVE AN AOTEAROA THAT TRULY TREATS EVERYONE THE SAME ` IT HASN'T. - WELL, WHAT IT'S` - NO, DAVID, YOU HAD YOUR TURN. AND WHAT DAVID DENIES AND WHAT HE WANTS TO STRIP AWAY IS THE VERY AGENCIES WHO WORK TO HIGHLIGHT WHERE THAT UNFAIRNESS AND THAT INJUSTICE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN. I AM PROUD THAT THE GREEN PARTY ARE ALWAYS CLEAR OF HAVING A PLAN TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS WHAT THEY NEED, NOT JUST THE WEALTHY FEW AND DAVID'S MATES. - DEBBIE, I'M GONNA OPEN IT UP TO YOU, BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO AGREE WITH DAVID. SO I'D LIKE YOU TO MAKE THE CASE FOR THOSE MINISTRIES TO VOTERS. - LOOK, I'M NOT GONNA SIT HERE AND MAKE THE CASE FOR MINISTRIES. I'M GOING TO MAKE THE CASE AS THE TIRITI-CENTRIC-FOCUSED PARTY FOR TANGATA WHENUA, FOR THOSE WHO ARE PROUD AND HAVE BEEN RAISED TO BE PROUD TO BE TANGATA WHENUA. AND REALLY, WHAT IT IS, IS IF IT WAS ABOUT SAVING MONEY, THEN LET'S LOOK AT THE 2500 PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING AT MBIE. IT ISN'T ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT TO SAVE MONEY OFF WHERE WE'VE GOT MINORITIES, WHERE WE'VE GOT TANGATA WHENUA, WHERE WE'VE GOT TAGATA PASIFIKA. IT IS CLEARLY ABOUT RACE. AND WE NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON RIGHTS` - DAVID: ACT'S QUITE` - IT'S OK` YOU'VE HAD YOUR TURN. KATI. YOU'VE HAD YOUR TURN. IT'S ALL RIGHT IF WE'VE HAD` YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT COMFORTABLE IN YOUR SKIN FOR YOUR WHAKAPAPA, BUT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN AND ARE PROUD TO BE THAT, AND WE WILL FIGHT FOR THE TIRITI-CENTRIC AOTEAROA HOU THAT 70% OF OUR POPULATION WHO ARE UNDER 40 WANT AND BELIEVE IN. - MARAMA: YES! - WINSTON, I WANT TO COME TO YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE ALSO CAMPAIGNED ALONG SOME OF THESE LINES. YOU'VE BEEN RALLYING AGAINST MAORI NAMES FOR GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, AGAINST BILINGUAL ROAD SIGNS, YOU'VE SAID MAORI ARE NOT INDIGENOUS, AND YOU'VE CALLED DAVID AN ACCIDENTAL MAORI. DO YOU...? (LAUGHTER) DO YOU JUST WANT TO DISAPPEAR RACE IN THIS COUNTRY? - OH, LOOK, WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT, IF YOU LOOKED AT THE UNITED STATES DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THOSE PEOPLE KNEW THAT TO GET WHERE THEY WANTED TO GO, TO GET EQUALITY, THEY HAD TO NOT SET UP THEIR OWN SEPARATE INSTITUTIONS, BUT TO BUST DOWN THE DOORS AND CEILINGS OF THE BEST WHITE INSTITUTIONS, AND THEY DID THAT, AND THEY ENDED UP WITH A BLACK PRESIDENT, NOW A BLACK VICE-PRESIDENT. AND WE'VE GOT THESE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO SAY 'OH, OUR ANSWER IS WE'RE GONNA GO DOWN THIS SEPARATIST, DIVISIVE PATH OF SEPARATE INSTITUTIONS. 'WE'RE GOING TO DELIVER THIS IN HEALTH,' AND SO YOU GET EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING, LIKE WAKA KOTAHI, UP IN EAST COAST, OR DARE I SAY IT... IN THE HOKIANGA AND ALL AROUND THIS COUNTRY. YOU HAVE POTHOLES EVERYWHERE, AND THE AVERAGE MAORI COULDN'T GIVE A RAT'S DERRIERE ABOUT ITS NAME. THEY WANT THE ROAD FIXED. - I'M WANT TO ASK YOU, ACTUALLY, WHAT YOUR WORDS SAY TO A YOUNG MAORI WHO IS PROUD OF THEIR CULTURE, AND THEY HEAR YOU STANDING UP HERE AS ONE OF OUR LEADERS IN A SUIT, SUCCESSFUL, SAYING THAT MAORI ARE NOT INDIGENOUS. - WELL, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, YOU CAN CARRY ON ARGUING ABOUT THIS... - I'M ASKING YOU` - BUT I'VE GOT AUTHORITIES LIKE` - ...TO SPEAK TO THAT YOUNG PERSON WHO HEARS YOUR WORDS. - I'M ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I WAS THAT YOUNG PERSON MYSELF ONCE. I BELONG TO AN IWI CALLED NGATI WAI AND IT'S PEOPLE OF THE SEA UP NORTH. GOES FROM WHANGAREI HEADS ALL THE WAY UP TO RAWHITI, AND WE KNOW WHAT OUR ORIGINS ARE. I WENT TO RAROTONGA ONCE, AND THIS VERY SENIOR PERSON FROM THERE SAID TO ME, 'WINSTON, WELCOME HOME.' I KNEW WHAT HE WAS SAYING ABOUT. ONE LAST THING ` WHEN PEOPLE LIKE THIS GENIUS, SIR PETER BUCK, SETS OUT THE ANTHOLOGY OF THIS COUNTRY AND HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY I BELIEVE HIM AND NOT SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO CREATE IT NOW. - DEBBIE, I WANT TO COME TO YOU, BECAUSE YOU WANT A MAORI HEALTH SYSTEM, MAORI ACC, A MAORI JUSTICE SYSTEM. YOUR PARTY LAMENTS HISTORICAL SEGREGATION, BUT SOME WOULD SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT YOUR TRYING TO IMPOSE INTO THIS DEMOCRACY. - NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. I MEAN, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS LIFT THE PLAYING FIELD, AND IT'S NOT ABOUT TE PATI MAORI JUST WANTING THAT. WE'VE HAD ACADEMICS AND SCIENTISTS, WE'VE HAD EVERY MEDICAL EXPERT SAY THE ONLY WAY WE'RE GOING TO ADDRESS THE INEQUITIES AND TO BE ABLE TO GIVE US A FAIR CHANCE, TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY, TO BE ABLE TO LIVE AND CONTRIBUTE TO OUR NATION, IS TO ADDRESS THE FACT THAT WE WERE RAISED IN A SYSTEM THAT WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR US. I THINK THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE ARGUING THAT POINT. NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH INEQUITIES. IT'S JUST THOSE WHO ARE AFTER THE VOTES AND ARE BAITING WITH AN ANTI-MAORI RHETORIC AND HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR THREE YEARS. SO LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT IS, BECAUSE MOST OF US ARE VERY FOCUSED ON INTERGENERATIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY. - ARE YOU BAITING? - MARAMA: YES! - ABSOLUTELY. - IF I'M PROUD OF ANYTHING THAT ACT HAS DONE IN THE LAST` (VOICES OVERLAP) ...IT'S CHARTER SCHOOLS. YOU SEE, WHAT WE DID WITH CHARTER SCHOOLS IS WE ALLOWED MAORI TO SET UP SCHOOLS FOR MAORI BY MAORI. - THESE WORDS ARE IMPORTANT, AREN'T THEY? WORDS ARE IMPORTANT. AND THERE IS A LOT OF DIVISION OUT THERE... AND IT'S INFLAMMATORY SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING SAID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. - WELL, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF THAT... - YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT AN ETHNOSTATE. - YEAH, AND I THINK THAT IS INCREASINGLY TRUE WHEN YOUR BACKGROUND GIVES YOU POSITIONS WITHIN THE STATE APPARATUS TO SIT ON THE CO-GOVERNANCE BOARD OF THREE WATERS, FOR EXAMPLE. - MARAMA: (GASPS) - MARAMA? - YOU MEAN LIKE WEALTHY LOBBYISTS WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO BUY THE INFLUENCE OF THIS DIRECTION OF THIS ELECTION. AND, REALLY, YOU ARE BAITING, AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE, DAVID, AND YOU KNOW IT. BECAUSE WHAT TIRITI JUSTICE IS ACTUALLY ABOUT IS AN INSPIRATIONAL VISION, AND MATUA FROM HOKIANGA AND TE TAI TOKERAU ALSO KNOWS IT COS HE'S SEEN IT TOO ` WANTS TO TALK ABOUT MY HOKIANGA... - WINSTON: I'LL SPEAK FOR MYSELF. - WELL, YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT MY HOKIANGA. SO WILL I. WE HAVE SEEN ON THE GROUND TANGATA WHENUA, TANGATA TIRITI, TAUIWI AND PAKEHA EMBRACING WHAT TE TIRITI CAN OFFER US, AND THAT'S FANTASTIC. - ABSOLUTELY. - THE PROBLEM IS EACH PERSON IS JUST AN IDENTITY TO YOU` - WINSTON: REBECCA... - I'LL COME TO YOU. - TO US, EACH PERSON IS A HUMAN, AND IF I CAN FINISH THAT THOUGHT, WE ALLOWED CHARTER SCHOOLS, BUT SOME OF THEM WERE RUN BY IWI. BUT THEY WERE ALSO RUN BY PACIFIC, ALSO RUN BY PEOPLE THAT HAD NO ETHNIC BASIS WHATSOEVER. THEIR SCHOOL HAD A DIFFERENT MISSION. THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE SOCIAL SERVICES THAT WORK FOR EVERYBODY IT DOESN'T REQUIRE DIVIDING STATES AND THE COUNTRY DOWN THE LINES OF ETHNICITY, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO SAD ABOUT THAT DIVISION. THEY WISH THAT WE COULD GET BACK TO BEING A NEW ZEALAND WHERE ONE PERSON HAS ONE FIVE-MILLIONTH OF THE OPPORTUNITY THIS COUNTRY HAS TO OFFER. (DEBBIE LAUGHS) - WINSTON, I'M COMING TO YOU. I PROMISE. - EXCUSE ME! WHAT A DECEITFUL WAY TO TAKE THE EYES OFF THE PRIZE THAT ORDINARY MAORI WANT. THAT'S THE ORDINARY MAORI OUT THERE THAT IS CALLING OUT FOR FUNDAMENTAL THINGS LIKE A SAFE, AFFORDABLE HOME, ACCESS TO IMMEDIATE HEALTH SYSTEM, THE ACCESS TO GET ON THE CONVEYOR BELTS OF EDUCATION AND GO AS FAR AS THEY LIKE, AND FIRST WORLD WAGES. THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR, BUT THEY'RE SPENDING ALL THEIR TIME ON WOKE PROJECTS, AND NO ONE EVER DOES A THING ABOUT THOSE FUNDAMENTAL THINGS WHICH WE HAVE DONE. - I'M GOING TO TURN NOW TO A QUICK-FIRE SECTION. THIS HAS BEEN A FASCINATING CONVERSATION, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, IT HAS BEEN A YEAR SINCE THE QUEEN DIED. IS IT TIME FOR NEW ZEALAND TO CUT TIES WITH THE MONARCHY? DAVID. - LOOK, IT AIN'T BROKE. DON'T FIX IT. - MARAMA. - UPHOLD TE TIRITI, WHATEVER THAT LOOKS LIKE. - DEBBIE. - ABSOLUTELY DIVORCE THE CROWN, AND MAKE SURE THAT WE WHAKAMANA TE TIRITI AND MATIKE MAI IN AOTEAROA. - WINSTON. - IT'S NOT FOR YOU AND I TO DECIDE, OR THEM. IT'S FOR THE PEOPLE TO DECIDE, AND` - REFERENDUM. - WHEN WE TELL THEM HOW` - REFERENDUM. IT'S QUICK-FIRE, WINSTON. (LAUGHTER) - LET ME FINISH. WHEN WE` WHEN WE TELL THEM WHAT` HOW EXPENSIVE THE ALTERNATIVE IS, THEY MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW. - WE'VE GOT ONE MORE. WINSTON, YOU WANT TO BRING THE COMMONWEALTH GAMES TO NEW ZEALAND IN 2026. AND I'M JUST WONDERING IF THE OTHERS AGREE. DAVID? - NOT IF YOU'VE READ THE PRE-ELECTION FISCAL UPDATE. GRANT ROBERTSON SPENT IT ALL, AND YOU CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS UNTIL YOU'VE GOT A GOOD ECONOMY. - MARAMA. - FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD OF IT. NOT MY PRIORITY. MY PRIORITY IS HOMES AND INCOMES FOR EVERYONE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE. - DEBBIE. - FIRST I'VE HEARD OF IT. MY PRIORITY IS TO END POVERTY. - WINSTON, I'VE GOT TO GO. I KNOW THAT YOUR FOURTH, BUT IT'S YOUR IDEA. - IF WE WANT IT LIKE LOS ANGELES` - COMING UP, IF WE DIVING INTO THE TOP ISSUE FOR MANY KIWIS ` THE COST OF LIVING AND THE STATE OF OUR ECONOMY. STAY WITH US. WE WILL BE RIGHT BACK. - WELCOME BACK TO CENTRAL AUCKLAND, BUT WHEREVER YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY, YOU WILL KNOW THAT KIWI FAMILIES ARE STRUGGLING WITH THE COST OF LIVING. LABOUR'S SOLUTION IS FREE PRESCRIPTIONS, PUBLIC TRANSPORT FOR KIDS, SUBSIDISED CHILDCARE FOR 2-YEAR-OLDS, AND GST OFF FRESH FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. NATIONAL, THOUGH, WANTS TO GIVE WORKING KIWIS A TAX CUT OF BETWEEN $2 AND $25 A WEEK. SO LET'S OPEN THIS UP. WINSTON, ARE EITHER OF THOSE APPROACHES CREDIBLE IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT? - NO, THEY'RE NOT, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE REAL PROBLEM. FIRST OF ALL, WE KNOW THAT THE DUOPOLY HAS GOT GROCERIES AT A FAR HIGHER PRICE, AND ONE OF THEM MADE A 19%... THAT'S AN INFLATIONARY INCREASE IN JUST THE LAST YEAR. THEN WE GOT BACKING THAT` WHERE NED KELLY HAS HAD FIVE INQUIRIES IN AUSTRALIA BUT NOTHING IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WE BETTER DEAL WITH BOTH OF THOSE THINGS AND GIVE THESE ORGANISATIONS THAT SHOULD BE` IN SURVEILLANCE REAL POWERS AND DRIVE DOWN THE COSTS. AND THE SECOND THING IS THEY'VE ALL MADE THOSE STATEMENTS ABOUT THEIR TAX CUTS BEFORE THE PREFU CAME OUT AND FOUND THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY MONEY TO PAY THEM. - MARAMA, OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS, THE GOVERNMENT HAS` IT'S SPENT A LOT OF MONEY. THERE HAVE BEEN SUBSIDIES, COST OF LIVING PAYMENTS FOR EVERYBODY INCLUDING FRENCH BACKPACKERS AND DEAD PEOPLE. THE LIST GOES ON. BUT DO THE GREENS BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT SOMETIMES HAS TO TIGHTEN ITS BELT TOO? - WHAT I WANT TO SAY TO PEOPLE AT HOME, AND I KNOW THE STRESSES ARE HIGH, ARE HAVING TO CHECK THEIR ACCOUNT ALL THE TIME JUST TO BUY THEIR KAI. AND WHAT THE GREENS HAVE CONSISTENTLY SHOWN IS THAT WE CAN UNLOCK THE WEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY. IT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE THAT 311 FAMILIES OWN MORE THAN $85B WHEN PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING TO GO TO THE SUPERMARKET. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THAT. THAT IS A POLITICAL CHOICE. AND THE GREENS HAVE SHOWN THE PLAN FOR HOW WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT IS SHARED AMONG EVERYONE. - BUT DO GOVERNMENTS NEED TO ALSO TRIM THEIR BUDGETS TOO? THE` KIWI HOMES ARE DOING IT. DOES THE GOVERNMENT NEED TO REIN IT IN? - THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO PRIORITISE PEOPLE'S WELL-BEING AND THE WELL-BEING OF OUR PLANET. - I'M GONNA TAKE THAT AS A NO. - WHAT THAT TAKES IS INVESTMENT IN THE RIGHT PLACES. - DEBBIE, YOUR PARTY IS PROPOSING SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO TAX. ZERO TAX UNDER $30,000 AND UP TO 48% TAX FOR THOSE EARNING OVER $300... WANTS TO INTRODUCE A WEALTH TAX, A FOREIGN COMPANIES TAX, A LAND BANKING TAX, A VACANT HOUSE TAX AND A 5% HIKE IN THE COMPANY TAX RATE. THAT IS A LOT OF TAXING. WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO WITH IT? - NOT REALLY, AND WE ALSO WANT TO GIVE MORE WEIGHT TO SFO TO CHASE UP THE $7B TAX EVASION THAT THIS NATION HAS. NOW, THE REALITY IS ` AND WE DID OUR NUMBERS ` THAT WE HAVE 2.1 MILLION PEOPLE IN AOTEAROA LIVING OFF LESS THAN $30,000 A YEAR. THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE. AND OVERNIGHT, EVERYONE HERE COULD CHANGE THAT. WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS BE ABLE TO FLIP THE TAX SYSTEM UPSIDE DOWN, BY DOING IT OUR WAY AND GST OFF ALL KAI COS NONE OF THE BIG PARTIES HAVE GOT THE GUTS TO DO IT. WE WOULD HAVE $16.4B SAVED FOR THIS COUNTRY, SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE PROPOSING. - I WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT ACTUALLY THE MAORI PARTY VOTED FOR THE HIKE IN GST UNDER JOHN KEY'S GOVERNMENT. - WELL, WE'RE A DIFFERENT PARTY NOW, AND WE CAN'T LOOK BACK. WE'VE GOT TO LOOK FORWARD. - IS IT REALISTIC? BECAUSE THE FIRST RULE OF POLITICS IS, 'IS IT GOING TO HAPPEN?' THESE SUGGESTIONS, THESE TAX SUGGESTIONS ` THEY'RE NOT GONNA HAPPEN. - THAT'S NOT UP TO YOU. THAT'S UP TO THE VOTERS TO DECIDE. IT IS THE VOTERS WHO GET TO DECIDE, AND WE'VE SEEN HOW POPULAR IT IS, THE IDEA OF OUR WEALTH TAX. AND THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE CAN VOTE FOR IF THEY LIKE AND WANT A WEALTH TAX, THEY CAN VOTE FOR THE GREEN PARTY. - WE CAN'T HAVE 120,000 EMPTY HOMES AND 90,000 HOMELESS PEOPLE. WE JUST CAN'T CONTINUE THAT ON. WE GOT TO FLIP IT UPSIDE DOWN. NOT ALL OF OUR MATES WANT TO DO THAT, BUT THAT'S WHAT WE STAND FOR. - THE BIG PROBLEM IS, WHERE THE TRUCK HITS THE WALL, FOR A WEALTH TAX IS THAT BOTH MAJOR PARTIES HAVE RULED IT OUT. BUT I WANT TO SWITCH TO YOU, DAVID` - THEY DON'T GET TO RULE IT OUT. - WELL, WE'LL GET TO COALITION NEGOTIATIONS SOON. I CAN'T WAIT. DAVID, I WANT TO SWITCH TO YOU. (LAUGHTER) YOU LIKE TAX CUTS, BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO SLASH GOVERNMENT SPENDING. THERE IS A WAR, I THINK, BEING WAGED BY ACT ON THE PUBLIC SERVICE ` AXING 15,000 WORKERS ` THAT IS 15,000 PEOPLE OUT OF A JOB ` AND, FOR THE REMAINING PEOPLE THERE, A 5% TO 12% PAYCUT. WHAT IS GONNA BE LEFT IN OUR PUBLIC SERVICE? - FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU HAVE A LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE CHANGE JOBS EVERY DAY, IT'S ABOUT 3000, SO 15,000 PEOPLE MOVING OUT OF BUREAUCRACY. THAT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT FIVE DAYS' HIRING. - THAT IS SIMPLE MATH, AND YOU KNOW IT. - WELL, IT'S MATHS. IT'S NOT SIMPLE MATHS OR COMPLICATED MATHS, REBECCA. IT'S JUST MATHS. - HUMANS ARE MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT. - THE POINT THAT I THINK IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT IS THAT WE HAVE A BARE CUPBOARD. THIS GOVERNMENT IS AT NEARLY $200B OF DEBT. - OH, WE KNOW HOW TO FILL THAT CUPBOARD. - IT IS SPENDING FAR TOO MUCH. AND THE SOLUTIONS WE HEAR IS THAT SOMEWHERE, SOMEONE HAS DONE TOO WELL, AND IF WE WHACK THEM AND TAKE THEIR MONEY, THAT'S GONNA SOLVE THE PROBLEM. - NO, WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT REDISTRIBUTING WEALTH. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TAKING THEM OUT. IT'S MAKING THEM PAY THEIR WAY. - WE NEED TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS WHERE PEOPLE CAN INVEST IN BETTER BUSINESSES, CREATING MORE INTERESTING JOBS THAT PAY MORE AND GIVE PEOPLE MORE OPPORTUNITY. THEN WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT INFRASTRUCTURE FUNDING... LAND USE REGULATION, MAKE IT EASIER TO BUILD HOMES FOR THE NEXT GENERATION. ACT CALCULATES` - WINSTON: UH, REBECCA. START DOING YOUR JOB, WILL YOU? - WINSTON. WINSTON. (LAUGHTER) - THESE ARE THE` - I'M ON YOU. I'M ON YOU. BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT AN INTERESTING IDEA. - HANG ON A SECOND. - OH, LOOK, DAVID, YOU'VE HAD YOUR CHANCE. THAT'S ENOUGH. - THESE ARE THE KIND OF CHANGES WE` - THERE ARE ADULTS IN THE ROOM. (LOUD LAUGHTER) $38B IN CUTS WOULD BE A MASSIVE DEPRESSION IN THIS COUNTRY. THE SECOND THING IS THESE PEOPLE ARE ALL ABOUT ENVIOUS POLITICS. - MARAMA, DEBBIE: OH, RUBBISH. - YOU'VE HAD YOUR SAY. YOU'RE ON THE MARAE NOW. BEHAVE YOURSELF. - OH NO. I'M A WAHINE ON A MARAE. - NO, LOOK. LET ME TELL YOU. THESE WEALTHY THEY TALK ABOUT ` IT'S QUITE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, EXCEPT A LOT OF THAT WEALTH IS OFFSHORE. NOW, WE'VE ALREADY GOT 39,000 MAINLY YOUNG PEOPLE WE CAN'T AFFORD LEAVING THIS COUNTRY ALREADY. AND THEN YOU'LL SEE CAPITAL FLIGHT, AND WE'LL BE STRAIGHT INTO THE THIRD WORLD. THAT'S WHAT THEY PROSPECT FOR THIS COUNTRY. - MARAMA: MATUA, CAN I JUST SAY` (VOICES CLAMOUR) - DAVID: I THOUGHT HE HAD SOMETHING USEFUL TO SAY THERE. - I JUST WANT TO PICK UP ON THE ADULTS IN THE ROOM... - WELL, YOU GOT TO BE EDUCATED TO LEARN IT. - ...AND, MATUA, YES ` YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS JOB FOR FOUR DECADES NOW. WE WOULD EXPECT A LOT MORE MATURITY THAN WHAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY SHOWING. - OH, REALLY? - WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE... - I'M NOT A CIS WHITE MAN. - DEBBIE: OH, MATUA! - I CAN COME BACK TO THAT. - COME BACK TO THAT. I THINK THAT NEEDS ANSWERING, MARAMA. - I WANT THE WORLD TO BE ENVIOUS OF AOTEAROA BECAUSE WE HAVE ENDED POVERTY AND HOMELESSNESS. YES, IF YOU WANT TO CALL ME ENVY, THEN HERE IT IS. THE WORLD CAN BE ENVIOUS. - DEBBIE: WE ARE NOT ENVYING THE WEALTHY. WE JUST WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE A FAIR GO. - ONE QUESTION ` ARE YOU GONNA TAX MAORI CORPORATIONS? - OH MY GOSH. - PEOPLE DON'T WANT 10 HOUSES. THEY WANT A HOUSE. - ARE YOU GONNA TAX MAORI CORPORATIONS? - WE'RE GONNA TAX PAKEHA ONES TOO AND IRISH AND ENGLISH... HONESTLY, WHERE ARE YOU COMING FROM? - NOT A WORD. NO FAIRNESS AT ALL HERE, SEE? - OH, IT'S... - THAT'S NOT WHERE ALL THE WEALTH IS HELD. THAT'S WHY, MATUA. - OH, REALLY? - DAVID? - NO. 2% OWNED. 50% OF THE WEALTH OF AOTEAROA. - THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY IS IN A LOT OF TROUBLE. IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE A SERIOUS PROBLEM. PEOPLE ARE REALLY STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET, AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CUT WASTE... - DEBBIE: WOULD YOU KNOW THEM? - ...IMPROVE THE QUALITY... - NOT THE ONES DONATING TO YOU AREN'T STRUGGLING. - WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S TIME FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS. IT'S TIME TO DEBATE IDEAS. - THEY'RE DONATING TO YOUR PARTY, THEN. - OK. YOU CAN TAKE ME, MY PARTY, WHATEVER. PEOPLE STILL NEED BETTER IDEAS SO THAT WE CAN GET THE REAL CHANGE THIS COUNTRY REQUIRES. BECAUSE IF WE KEEP DOING WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING SO FAR, WE WILL BECOME A KIND OF MIDDLE-INCOME COUNTRY ` NICE TO VISIT, BUT NOT A GREAT PLACE IF YOU GET SICK AND NEED THE LATEST DRUGS AND HOSPITAL CARE. - YET YOU'RE HAPPY TO FUND A REFERENDUM FOR TE TIRITI. - THIS HAS BEEN ANOTHER SORT OF FIERY DEBATE. I LOVE IT. I WANTED TO GO TO A QUICK-FIRE NOW AND ASK, STARTING WITH YOU, DAVID ` THIS IS QUICK-FIRE, WINSTON; IT'S JUST A FEW WORDS ` SHOULD WE RAISE THE AGE OF SUPER AND HOW HIGH? - YES, WE HAVE TO DO THAT. PRACTICALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IS DOING IT` - OH MY GOD. - QUICK-FIRE. - WELL, THIS IS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT. WE CAN DO IT SLOWLY. SO IF YOU'RE 61 NOW, YOU'LL BE ELIGIBLE IN 2028 INSTEAD OF 2027. BUT IN THAT TIME, WE'LL SAVE $2B TO PAY DOWN DEBT. - QUICK-FIRE! - SO, YES. MARAMA. - NO. HE TAONGA TE KAUMATUA. - OOH. NO. (LAUGHS) - NO. - AT 5.4% OF GDP, WHICH IS HALF OF THE PROBLEM OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE GOT, WE CAN WELL AFFORD TO LEAVE IT ALONE. - OK. WE'RE SPLIT. ANOTHER FASCINATING AND FAST-PACED DISCUSSION THERE, AND THERE IS PLENTY MORE TO COME. STRAIGHT AHEAD, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CRIME, JUSTICE, GANGS AND PRISONS. STAY WITH US. - NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME BACK TO OUR POWERBROKERS' DEBATE. IT IS LIVE FROM CENTRAL AUCKLAND. IT'S TIME NOW TO DIVE INTO ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES THIS ELECTION YEAR ` LAW AND ORDER. RETAIL CRIME IS UP, RAM-RAIDS, VIOLENT CRIME... WE HAVE SEEN AN EXPLOSION IN GANG NUMBERS. SO HOW DOES EACH PARTY PROPOSE WE TACKLE THESE ISSUES? MARAMA, I'M GONNA OPEN IT UP TO START WITH YOU. HOW DO YOU TACKLE THE GANGS? AND I DON'T WANT A SERMON ON GANGS. I WANT A STRATEGY. - REBECCA, LET'S` CAN WE PLEASE BE REAL ABOUT IT ISN'T JUST GANGS WHO ARE COMMITTING CRIME. WE REALLY NEED TO PULL THAT BACK. NOW, SECONDLY, I WANT TO SAY TO VICTIMS OF ANY CRIME AND ANY HARM, YOU DID NOT DESERVE THAT. YOU DID NOT HAVE TO FACE THAT VIOLENCE. THIS DIDN'T NEED TO HAPPEN. AND YOU DESERVE ALL THE SUPPORT TO HEAL AND OVERCOME THAT VIOLENCE. WHAT I KNOW AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN IN THE COMMUNITY THAT WORKS IS WHEN PEOPLE HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE, WHEN PEOPLE HAVE SOMETHING TO BELONG TO, THAT IS HOW WE STOP CRIME. AND I HAVE SEEN THAT WORK HAPPENING IN COMMUNITIES. - WHAT DOES THAT TANGIBLY MEAN, MARAMA? - IT MEANS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE IWI IN KAHUNGUNU WHO I HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH, WHO HAVE BEEN DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO FORM RELATIONSHIPS SO THAT THEY CAN BE CONNECTED TO FAMILIES, AND FAMILIES KNOW THEY CAN PICK UP THE PHONE AND SAY, 'PLEASE HELP ME BEFORE I GO TO MY NORMAL BEHAVIOUR, BECAUSE THE SHIT IS HITTING THE FAN.' THAT IS PREVENTING VIOLENCE AND CRIME. THAT IS WHAT WORKS. - WINSTON, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? - LOOK, THE BIGGEST VICTIM OF CRIME IN THIS COUNTRY IS MAORI AND PASIFIKA. AND THE REALITY OF IT IS YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE EXCUSES LIKE 'IT'S COLONIALISM' OR 'IT'S THE SYSTEM' OR IT'S EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT WHEN YOU'VE BEEN BROUGHT UP IN POOR MAORI SETTLEMENTS AND WHERE PEOPLE DO NOT COMMIT CRIME, WHERE THERE WERE THE DESCENDANTS OF THE MAORI BATTALION, ALL THOSE LAW ABIDING PEOPLE, WE KNOW WE CAN FIX THIS HERE, BUT WE CAN'T FIX IT WITH DUPLICITY. NOW... - HOW DO YOU FIX IT? - START WITH THE GANGS. YOU OUTLAW THEM JUST LIKE QUEENSLAND AND WESTERN AUSTRALIA. BUT YOU GIVE THEM A 40-HOUR JOB A WEEK AND TELL THEM THE STRAIGHT AND NARROW, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE LETTING THEM BLUDGE OFF THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. - I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT, WINSTON. THAT YOU'RE GOING TO OUTLAW THEM. YOU'RE GOING TO BRAND THEM AS TERRORISTS. BUT WHAT NEXT? - WHAT NEXT? - WHAT DOES OUTLAWING MEAN? - WELL, THERE'S 2000 SPARE BEDS IN THE PRISONS. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A PRISON-ONLY PLACE FOR GANGS, A GANG-ONLY PLACE FOR PRISONERS WHO ARE GANGSTERS BECAUSE... WE DON'T WANT THEM INFILTRATING THE REST OF THE PRISON POPULATION LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IN THE PAST. - ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU'RE JUST GOING TO LOCK UP GANG MEMBERS? BECAUSE THERE'S 9000 OF THOSE. - NO, NO, NO. IF YOUR INTENTION IS TO CARRY ON THE PATH OF COUNTLESS CRIMES, MAINLY AGAINST YOUR OWN PEOPLE AND AGAINST SOCIETY, THEN WE ARE GOING TO, YES, LOCK YOU UP, AND WE WILL NOT BE HAVING THE JUDICIARY DECIDING THAT IT'S THE LACK OF BREAST-FEEDING IS THE PROBLEM. WE'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT PROPERLY. - WELL, THAT'S A LOT OF PRISONERS. MARAMA. - CREATING, PUTTING OUT MESSAGES ABOUT HAVING PRISONS ONLY FOR CRIMES REALLY UNDERVALUES AND MINIMISES ALL THE VICTIMS OF ALL OTHER CRIMES THAT HAPPEN EVERY SINGLE DAY IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THAT IS DANGEROUS. - I WANT TO COME TO DAVID NOW, MARAMA, BECAUSE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT SLASHING SPENDING EARLIER. YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT FISCAL RESTRAINT, BUT YOU WANT TO SPEND $1B ADDING 500 PRISON BEDS A YEAR, AND EACH OF THOSE PRISONERS COSTS $200,000 A YEAR TO HOUSE. IT IS AN EXPENSIVE POLICY, PARTICULARLY RIGHT NOW. AND I THINK YOU AGREE THAT PRISON RIGHT NOW DOESN'T WORK. - WELL, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID UP TO THE POINT WHERE YOU SAID IT DIDN'T WORK. AND YES, IT'S TRUE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE, BUT WE'RE THE ONLY PARTY THAT PRODUCES A FULLY COSTED ALTERNATIVE BUDGET THAT LAYS OUT HOW WE'D PAY FOR IT. AND IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE EXPENSE OF PRISON, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY ` FOR A PERSON SITTING IN THIS ROOM, THE COST PER DAY OF HAVING 10,000 OF THE WORST OFFENDERS IN PRISON IS $1 ` $1 PER DAY ` SO ACTUALLY, IN TERMS OF WHAT IT COSTS NEW ZEALANDERS TO BE SAFE FROM THE WORST CRIMINALS, I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT EXPENSIVE. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO GO OUT ON THE LOOSE, PUT THEM ON HOME DETENTION, EVEN FOR DOING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, WELL WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS COS LABOUR HAS CARRIED OUT THAT EXPERIMENT OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS. WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION BY 40%. CRIMINALS OUT MEANS MORE CRIME. AND I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH MARAMA ABOUT WHAT SHE SAID. THE WELFARE STATE HAS FAILED SO MANY PEOPLE. THEY'VE GOT NOTHING TO LOSE AND NOTHING TO BELONG TO. AND WE DO NEED TO DO BETTER. - THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID. - WE NEED TO DO BETTER. - BLOODY HELL. - WELL, YOU'VE GOT A` WELL, YOU'VE GOT A WEL` WELL, YOU'VE GOT A WELFARE STATE. DO YOU DISAGREE THAT THE WELFARE STATE SPENDS A THIRD OF NEW ZEALAND'S ECONOMY, OR DO YOU DISAGREE THAT IT'S FAILED, LEAVING` - MARAMA? - I DISAGREE. I DISAGREE THAT ANYONE HAS TO BE POOR OR HOMELESS IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN WEALTH IS HELD IN THE HANDS OF THE FEW. WE'VE GOT THE RESOURCES, THE GREENS` AND, EXCUSE ME, YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY PARTY TO HAVE PUT OUT A MANIFESTO FULLY COSTED. WE WERE THE FIRST TO GO OUT WITH FULLY COSTED PRIORITIES. - I READ PART OF IT. DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT? - ACTUALLY, REBECCA, THEY BOTH PUT OUT A MANIFESTO BEFORE THE PREFU AND ONE OUT TODAY. THEY'VE GOT TWO, THE ACT PARTY HAS` - THIS ONE CAME OUT TODAY BECAUSE WHEN THE NUMBERS CHANGE, YOU CHANGE YOUR BUDGET. - THE PREFU DIDN'T MATTER. THEY PUT IT OUT REGARDLESS. - TE PATI MAORI HAS SOLUTIONS BECAUSE WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS APPROACH OF BEING TOUGH ON CRIME AND SOFT ON POVERTY IS THE BEST WAY FORWARD. AND WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IN A WHOLE SUITE OF POLICIES, WHICH ALSO HAS A MANIFESTO THAT YOU CAN LOOK UP ONLINE ` I DIDN'T BRING MY HARD COPY WITH ME ` BUT THE REALITY IS, IS THAT WE HAVE TO STOP REMEMBERING THAT POVERTY IS THE PROBLEM OF WHY WE HAVE THE COMPLEX ISSUES. WE'VE GOT 80% OF THOSE WOMEN THAT ARE INSIDE WHO ARE MAORI, IN BECAUSE OF CRIMES OF POVERTY. WE'VE GOT ISSUES WHERE WE'VE GOT THOSE IN GANGS HAVE BEEN RECRUITED. PEOPLE WHO AREN'T IN GANGS ARE BEING RECRUITED AS THEY GO INTO THE PRISONS SYSTEM. - MARAMA: INTO THE PRISON SYSTEM! - SO WE HAVE TO FLIP IT UPSIDE DOWN AND CHANGE IT. AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE'RE DEBATING STATUS QUO. STATUS QUO DOESN'T WORK. WE CAN'T IMPRISON OUR WAY OUT OF JUSTICE. WE'VE GOT TO SIT THERE AND INVEST IN SOLUTIONS, HAVE LESS PRISONS BUILT, MORE INTERVENTIONS, MORE MENTAL HEALTH, MORE INVESTMENT... - WINSTON. - REBECCA, PRISONS ARE MEANT TO BE ABOUT PUNISHMENT AND REHABILITATION. AND NOW THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE IN PRISON SHOULD NOT BE THERE. THEY'RE WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS. THEY SHOULD BE OUT THERE WORKING SIX DAYS A WEEK AND GET IT` - I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, WINSTON. - LET ME FINISH OFF. THERE ARE 2000 SPARE PRISON BEDS NOW. AND THE MOMENT YOU MAKE SURE THAT PRISONERS REALISE OR CRIMINALS REALISE THAT CRIME DOES NOT PAY, OUR CRIME AND OUR PENAL NUMBERS WILL GO DOWN, NOT UP. - WINSTON, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. - DEBBIE: IT DOESN'T WORK. - DEBBIE, JUST ONE MOMENT. - IT'S AN OLD-FASHIONED VIEW. - I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS SHOULD BE LET OUT OF PRISON, BUT DOESN'T THAT UNDERMINE THE DEVASTATION THAT ACTUALLY THAT WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS CAN HAVE ON PEOPLE IN THEIR FAMILIES? THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WATCHING THIS TONIGHT WHO HAVE LOST EVERYTHING AND HAVE BEEN FINANCIALLY RUINED BY WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS. - THAT'S THE BIGGEST GANG. - SORRY, SORRY. YOU ASKED THE QUESTION, AND YOU DESERVE AN ANSWER. YOU WERE RECITING THE COST OF HAVING PEOPLE IN PRISON. YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT THE COST. YOU'VE GOT IT FAR TOO HIGH. BUT HOWEVER, WHY ARE WE PAYING THIS MASSIVE COST FOR PRISONERS WHEN THEY COULD BE OUT THERE WORKING SIX DAYS A WEEK AND GETTING THEM` - I'M BRINGING YOU BACK TO THE QUESTION, WHICH IS... TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED DEVASTATING LOSSES AND TRAUMA FROM WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS AND ALSO FROM BEING SCAMMED, THOSE SORTS OF CRIMES, WHY SHOULDN'T THEY SEE THOSE PERPETRATORS GO TO PRISON? - INSTEAD OF` LOOK, FIRST OF ALL, THEY'VE ROBBED BY FINANCIAL MEANS SOMEBODY IN THE PUBLIC, AND THEN THEY'RE GONNA ROB THEM A SECOND TIME BY ROBBING THEM IN BEING A COST OF BEING IN PRISON. I WANT THEM OUT THERE SIX DAYS A WEEK, BRACELET AROUND THEIR ANKLES, SLAVING IT OFF FOR THE NEXT THREE OR FOUR YEARS TO PAY BACK THEIR DONE DEBT ON SOCIETY. - MARAMA, ONE FINAL COMMENT. ONE FINAL COMMENT. - WHAT I WANT TO DO IS FOCUS ON STOPPING PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIME AND GOING TO PRISON IN THE FIRST PLACE. - I THINK WE ALL WANT THAT, ACTUALLY. - THAT'S HOUSING, POVERTY ` ENDING IT. - AND IF WE'RE GONNA NOT ADDRESS POVERTY, YOU'RE GONNA KEEP HAVING GROWING, COMPLEX ISSUES. - ONCE YOU HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME, PEOPLE SHOULD BE GOING TO PRISON. THAT'S WHY WE WOULD FUND MORE PRISON SPACES. WE'D CHANGE THE SENTENCING ACT. FUNDAMENTALLY, WE WOULD BRING THE PENDULUM BACK TOWARDS CONSEQUENCES FOR CRIMINALS AND RIGHTS FOR VICTIMS. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S WHITE COLLAR CRIME, BLUE COLLAR CRIME OR ANY COLLAR CRIME. THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR CRIME. MOVING AWAY FROM THAT IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS HAS LED TO SO MANY VICTIMS AND TRAGIC CIRCUMSTANCES FOR TOO MANY PEOPLE. - OK. WELL, THAT IS A PERFECT PLACE TO LEAVE IT. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH. WE HAVE ONE VERY FASCINATING SECTION TO GO. COMING UP, WHERE THE RHETORIC HITS THE ROAD ` COALITIONS. ALL OF THESE LEADERS ARE ASKING FOR YOUR VOTE. SO HOW WILL THEY USE THAT POWER TO FORM A GOVERNMENT? THAT IS STRAIGHT AHEAD. - OK. WE ARE ON THE HOME STRAIGHT IN THIS DEBATE AND IN THE CAMPAIGN. IT IS WHERE THE RHETORIC HITS THE ROAD. SO LET'S TALK COALITION DECISIONS AND HOW THESE LEADERS WILL NEGOTIATE IF GIVEN THE CHANCE BY VOTERS. DEBBIE, I WANT TO START WITH YOU. IF AFTER THE ELECTION YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO OR DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE YOUR ACTIVISM WITHIN PARLIAMENT? - I THINK YOU CAN DO BOTH, BUT WE WILL HAVE SOME BIG NEGOTIATING ASPECTS, WHICH IS ABOUT OUR WEALTH TAX, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IF WE CAN END POVERTY, THEN WE CAN ADDRESS SOME OF THE COMPLEX SOCIAL ISSUES THAT EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT, WHETHER IT BE THE JUSTICE, THE PRISONS... - THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE FOR YOU? THE WEALTH TAX. - IT'S ONE OF THEM. BUT I GUESS THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IS FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, WE GO INTO THOSE NEGOTIATIONS WITH AN INTERGENERATIONAL FOCUS. AND I THINK SOMETIMES THAT'S BEEN REALLY HARD FOR ANALYSTS TO GET THEIR HEAD AROUND BECAUSE WE'RE NOT TRANSACTIONAL, WE'RE NOT TRIANNUAL, AND WE KNOW THAT WE'RE CALLED RADICAL, BUT YOU ARE CONSIDERED RADICAL UNTIL YOU'RE TRANSFORMATIONAL. AND THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN OUR FOCUS. - OK. I'VE GOT A BOTTOM LINE FOR YOU STRAIGHT UP. SHE'S SET THE BAR, EVERYBODY. DAVID, I'M GONNA COME TO YOU NEXT, BECAUSE LAST WEEK YOU SORT OF SET THE CAT AMONGST THE PIGEONS BY THREATENING TO ONLY GIVE THE NATIONAL PARTY CONFIDENCE AND NOT SUPPLY. AND I JUST WONDERED, DO YOU REGRET THAT NOW? BECAUSE THE PEOPLE VOTING FOR YOU WANT TO GIVE YOU THE PRIVILEGE OF FORMING A GOVERNMENT, NOT SORT OF WREAKING HAVOC ON THE NATIONAL` ON A RIGHT-LEANING GOVERNMENT? - I CERTAINLY REGRET THE WAY SOME PEOPLE INTERPRET IT, BECAUSE THEY SAW THAT AS BEING OUR, SORT OF, FIRST PREFERENCE, WHICH IT'S NOT. A PARTY VOTE FOR ACT IS FIRST AND FOREMOST A PARTY VOTE TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THIS LOT HAVE TO GO. THEY'VE DONE TOO MUCH DAMAGE ALREADY. - SO, YOU'RE STICKING TO IT. THAT'S WHAT I'M HEARING. - SECOND OF ALL, IT IS A VOTE TO HAVE` OUR FIRST PREFERENCE IS A TIGHT WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NATS. CHRIS LUXON AND I HAVE A GOOD PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. OUR PARTIES HAVE SOME DIFFERENT VIEWS, BUT WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN WORK STRONGLY TOGETHER, JOINING HANDS AROUND THE CABINET TABLE IN ORDER TO PUT IN PLACE A PLAN TO FIX THE ECONOMY, MAKE THE STREETS SAFE AGAIN` - WILL YOU JOIN HANDS WITH WINSTON PETERS? - ...AND ALSO UNITE THIS COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN SO DIVIDED BY THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT. NOW, IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT IN A SCENARIO WHERE YOU CAN'T AGREE THAT YOU'VE GOT A REAL PROBLEM. BUT I THINK WHAT YOU'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST WEEK` - I'M TALKING` - ...IS PARTIES TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY HOW WE INTEND TO WORK TOGETHER TIGHTLY TO SOLVE THOSE PROBLEMS BECAUSE THERE'S TOO MUCH. - I'M GETTING LOST, DAVID. I'M GETTING LOST. SO YOU REMAIN` YOU WANT TO KEEP THAT OPTION LIVE AND OPEN. YOU WERE TELLING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING FOR YOU RIGHT NOW THAT YOU WILL, IF YOU DECIDE, ONLY TO GIVE CONFIDENCE TO NATIONAL, NOT SUPPLY. YOU'RE KEEPING IT OPEN. - I THINK IT'S ALWAYS A MATHEMATICALLY LOGICAL OPTION. - OK, IT'S AN OPTION. - YEAH, BUT THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN TRUE. - OK, BUT YOU'RE BRINGING IT UP IN AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHICH MAKES IT MUCH MORE INTERESTING. YOU ARE PROMISING, DAVID, NEW ZEALANDERS REAL CHANGE IF THEY VOTE FOR YOU. SO WHAT IS YOUR ABSOLUTE BOTTOM LINE? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DELIVER THAT REAL CHANGE KNOWING THAT YOU WON'T GET ALL OF YOUR POLICIES OVER. WHAT IS THE PRIORITY FOR YOUR VOTERS? - THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT A PARTY LIKE ACT IS ON ONE ISSUE. ACTUALLY, I KNOW THAT PEOPLE IN THREE YEARS' TIME, IF WE'VE BEEN PART OF A GOVERNMENT, WILL JUDGE US ON WHETHER WE'VE CUT GOVERNMENT WASTE. - DAVID, I'M ASKING ABOUT COALITION NEGOTIATIONS, AND WE'RE GETTING BOGGED DOWN IN... - I'M GIVING YOU THE ANSWER. OK. - ...THE THEORY OF GOVERNMENT. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IF YOU HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER... - YOU'RE NORMALLY A LOT TIGHTER, CUZ. - MARAMA! MARAMA. - I'M GIVING YOU OUTCOMES THAT PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND ARE INTERESTED IN... - WELL, THE OUTCOMES THAT PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN IS WHAT YOU WILL PUSH FOR. - ...UNITY FOR OUR COUNTRY. - WHAT WOULD THEY GET FROM YOU IF YOU HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER? WHAT WILL THEY DEFINITELY GET? - I KNOW THAT IN THREE YEARS' TIME, PEOPLE WILL JUDGE US IF WE'VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT BASED ON WHETHER OR NOT WE MADE MORE PROGRESS IN THOSE THREE AREAS THE NATIONAL WOULD HAVE MADE ALONE. THAT'S WHAT REAL CHANGE LOOKS LIKE. - DAVID IF THERE AREN'T ANY BOTTOM LINES, THEN THAT'S OK TOO. - REBECCA. - WINSTON. - CAN WE HAVE THE SAME DEGREE OF TIME TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION? - DEBBIE: YEAH, I'M WITH YOU. - BOTTOM LINE? - IT'S GONE ON AND ON AND ON. LET ME JUST TELL ME THIS. LET ME JUST TELL ME THIS. - YOU KEEP GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES. - THIS IS A PARTY'S BEEN AROUND FOR 30 YEARS AND HAS NEVER HAD A CABINET MINISTER. THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR 51 YEARS AND THEY'VE HAD A CABINET MINISTER. AND YOU'VE HEARD THAT LONG ANSWER. I CAN'T BELIEVE ` WE'RE FACING A CRISIS IN THIS ELECTION. AND I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, NO MATTER WHAT WE THINK OF EACH OTHER, WE'VE GOT TO HAVE TO FORM A MUCH BETTER GOVERNMENT. THAT MEANS YOU BETTER GET SOME ADULTS IN THE ROOM, LEAVE WITH TROUSERS ON, FOR GOODNESS SAKE, NOT BEHAVING` NOT BEHAVE IN A PETULANT WAY, FOR GOODNESS SAKE. YOU CAN'T YOU CAN'T RUN A GOVERNMENT WHERE EVERY BILL AND ACT IS GONNA HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY ANOTHER PARTY. YOU WILL PARALYSE THE GOVERNMENT. THIS IS THAT LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN THIS MATTER. AND SO ALL I'M SAYING TO YOU IS THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA ARE NOT GOING TO DECIDE THIS ISSUE. THE PUBLIC ARE. AND THANK HEAVEN FOR THAT. - THE PUBLIC ARE VOTING FOR YOU, WINSTON, AND THEY'RE VOTING FOR YOU WITH THE BELIEF THAT YOU WILL FORM A GOVERNMENT. IF YOU ARE ABLE TO DO THAT, DON'T THEY DESERVE TRANSPARENCY AHEAD OF TIME ABOUT WHAT YOU` WHAT YOUR PRIORITY WILL BE WHEN YOU ENTER THAT NEGOTIATING ROOM? WHAT YOUR BOTTOM LINE IS? - ISN'T THAT JUST BRILLIANT. I'VE BEEN IN MORE NEGOTIATIONS THAN ANYBODY ELSE, BUT LET ME ASK YOU ONE THING. - WHAT WILL YOU BE PUSHING FOR? - LET ME ASK YOU ONE THING. THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN RESOLVE IT BEFOREHAND WOULD BE PERFECT IF THE OTHER PARTIES WILL TELL ME WHAT THEY'LL AGREE TO BEFORE THE ELECTION AND THE SAME THING AFTER IT. YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN? - SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN IN THAT NEGOTIATING ROOM? - NO, WE'VE RULED OUT LABOUR. WE'RE NOT GOING THAT RACIST, SEPARATIST PATH ANY MORE IN THIS COUNTRY. - I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION FOR YOU, THEN I'M GONNA COME TO YOU, MARAMA. - THANK YOU. - I'VE GOT ONE MORE QUESTION, WHICH IS, CAN PEOPLE TRUST YOU TO FOLLOW THE MAJORITY VOTE TO GO WITH THE PARTY THAT GETS THE BIGGEST VOTE IN THIS ELECTION? - EXCUSE ME. EXCUSE ME. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DIDN'T GO WITH THE MAJORITY VOTE IN 2017, DO YOU? - WILL YOU GO WITH IT THIS TIME? - NO, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW CRITICAL IT WAS, COS I WAS TALKING TO A MAN, WHO IN HIS FIRST CONVERSATION SAYS TO ME, 'THEY'RE ABOUT TO ROLL ME.' - I DON'T THINK I'M GONNA GET AN ANSWER HERE, SO I'M GONNA GO TO MARAMA. MARAMA, BOTTOM LINES FOR YOU. PRIORITIES, TOP PRIORITIES ` WHAT CAN YOU TELL YOUR VOTERS ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD DELIVER FOR THEM? - FIRSTLY, MATUA TRYING TO MAKE OUT THAT HE'S THE ADULT IN THE ROOM. IT IS NOT ADULT AT ALL TO PICK ON RANGATAHI AND THEIR PRIDE IN BEING INDIGENOUS, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE CAN FOCUS ON HOW TO END POVERTY. SO I WANT TO ASK VIEWERS, REBECCA, ABOUT COALITION. DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRUST THAT IT'S GOING TO BE CLOSE? DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY TRUST THAT LUXON IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE THESE TWO? LIKE, FOR REAL? AND WHEREAS, LIKE, WE CAN BE FRIENDS, EH? YEAH. SO, LIKE, WHAT ARE THE CHOICES? - TRUST US, WHANAU. - WHAT ARE THE CHOICES? - TWO TICKS FOR TE PATI MAORI. - WE HAVE BEEN CLEAR ABOUT OUR PRIORITIES. IF PEOPLE WANT A WEALTH TAX ENOUGH TO PUT MORE MONEY IN THE POCKETS OF LOW AND MIDDLE INCOMES TO END HOMELESSNESS, THEY CAN VOTE FOR IT. WE'VE BEEN TRANSPARENT ABOUT OUR SOLUTIONS. - SO, A WEALTH TAX? - PEOPLE, VOTE FOR IT SO THAT WE CAN GET THESE ACROSS THE LINE. - I'VE GOT IT. BUT I DO WANT TO PICK UP ON YOUR POINT, MARAMA, BECAUSE IT IS A SPICY ONE. DAVID, WINSTON, CAN YOU TWO WORK TOGETHER? - I TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING TO DECIDE THIS DECISION, AND THE ANSWER IS THIS COUNTRY IS IT'S A SERIOUS CRISIS. I'LL WORK WITH ANYONE` - I'M ACTUALLY ASKING YOU IF YOU CAN WORK WITH DAVID. - ME AND MY COLLEAGUES` LISTEN UP. - 'LISTEN UP.' (LAUGHS) - ...WILL WORK WITH ANYONE TO TRY AND FIX IT NOW. - SO THAT'S A YES. DAVID, WILL YOU WORK WITH WINSTON? - LOOK, I THINK ULTIMATELY, IF A PARLIAMENT IS ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, THEN YOU MAKE IT WORK. BUT I JUST SAY IT'S NOT CREDIBLE FOR THE GUY WHO'S HAD MORE CHANCES TO FIX NEW ZEALAND'S PROBLEMS THAN ANYONE. - HANG ON, HANG ON, HANG ON. - HERE WE GO AGAIN. - REBECCA, I'M SORRY` (VOICES CLAMOUR) REBECCA, HE'S LIKE AN ARSONIST SHOWING UP DRESSED AS A FIREMAN SAYING, 'I'M HERE TO HELP AND FIX IT ALL FOR YOU.' IT'S JUST NOT CREDIBLE. I MEAN, THIS IS THE GUY WHO PUT LABOUR IN POWER. - GO AND ASK JIM BOLGER OR HELEN CLARK WHETHER I CAN BE TRUSTED. - HE'S SAYING YOU'RE AN ARSONIST. (LAUGHTER, VOICES CLAMOUR) - DEBBIE: WE CAN BE TRUSTED. - MARAMA: WE CAN BE TRUSTED. - HE MUST BE DESPERATE. - BUT REALLY, SERIOUSLY, THOUGH, IF YOU GET YOU TWO ACROSS THE CABINET TABLE FROM EACH OTHER` - HE'LL LEARN. - WE'VE ALL SEEN TONIGHT WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE. SO COULD YOU WORK WITH WINSTON? - LOOK, I THINK, ACTUALLY, THE QUESTION IS, CAN ANYONE? - 'COURSE HE WILL. (LAUGHTER) - NOBODY'S BEEN ABLE TO. HE'S FALLEN OUT WITH PRACTICALLY EVERY PERSON HE'S TRIED TO WORK WITH. - I'LL SHOW HIM HOW IT'S DONE. - MARAMA: THAT'S 2-2. - THIS COUNTRY HAS SERIOUS CHALLENGES. - IT DOES. - THIS GUY'S HAD ENOUGH CHANCES ALREADY. IT'S NOT CLEAR WHY HE THINKS HE DESERVES ANOTHER ONE. - OH, DAVID, DAVID. THIS IS SAD. - HE'S DOING IT ALL FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES RATHER THAN FOR NEW ZEALAND. - LOOK, I'VE HAD MORE TO CALL AT MY COST THAN ALL THESE GUYS PUT TOGETHER, AND HE'S SAYING, I'M DOING IT FOR MY OWN PURPOSE. JESUS. - I'M BEGINNING TO PITY CHRISTOPHER LUXON. - BUT HE'LL LEARN. HE'LL LEARN. - BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING TONIGHT AND TALKING TO VOTERS. IT IS AN IMPORTANT ELECTION. IT'S AN IMPORTANT TIME, AND PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AROUND, AND I HOPE THAT THEY'VE FOUND SOMETHING AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. - AND THANK YOU, REBECCA. - THANK YOU. (LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE) - OK, THERE IS A LOT TO TAKE IN TONIGHT. BUT MOST OF ALL, WE HOPE THAT IT'S BEEN USEFUL FOR YOU, THE VOTERS AT HOME. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR LEADERS ONCE AGAIN FOR SHOWING UP TO OUR DEBATE AND TALKING TO THE ISSUES. AND WE'RE GOING TO PASS IT ON NOW TO SIMON SHEPHERD AND HIS PANEL ` SIMON WILSON, JENNA LYNCH AND FRAN O'SULLIVAN. THEIR INSIGHTS AND THEIR ANALYSIS ` THAT IS UP STRAIGHT AHEAD. - HOKI MAI ANO, AND WELCOME BACK. THE BIG QUESTION IS WHO SHONE BRIGHTEST IN OUR NEWSHUB NATION POWERBROKERS' DEBATE. TO ANALYSE, NEW ZEALAND HERALD SENIOR WRITER SIMON WILSON IS WITH US, NEWSHUB POLITICAL EDITOR JENNA LYNCH, AND NZ MEDIA HEAD OF BUSINESS, FRAN O'SULLIVAN. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. WHAT A DEBATE. LET'S ASK THAT QUESTION. JENNA, WHO SHONE THE BRIGHTEST? - ONE SPECIAL HONOURABLE MENTION HERE WAS THE CONSTANT HIGH-FIVING BETWEEN MARAMA AND DEBBIE. WASN'T THAT GREAT? BUT I THINK THE STANDOUT PERFORMER IN THAT DEBATE HAD TO GO TO MARAMA DAVIDSON. SHE WAS REALLY ON FIRE TONIGHT, DRIVING HOME HER POINTS AND NOT SOUNDING LIKE THEY WERE REHEARSED. SHE KNEW HER POLICY WELL, AND SHE WAS ABLE TO TAKE IT TO DAVID SEYMOUR MAINLY. WELL, WITHOUT` WITHOUT SOUNDING TO REHEARSED. - RIGHT. SIMON WILSON? - I ACTUALLY HAVE TO AGREE. I THOUGHT THE DEFINING MOMENT CAME WHEN MARAMA DAVIDSON NOT JUST KNEW HER POLICY, BUT ACTUALLY USED THE BODY LANGUAGE, DID EVERYTHING TO SAY, 'LUXON'S GOT TO HAVE TO WORK WITH THESE TWO GUYS. 'WE DON'T HAVE TROUBLE WORKING TOGETHER, BUT LOOK AT THEM.' AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY` THAT KIND OF NAILED A REALLY BIG ISSUE. - OK. FRAN O'SULLIVAN? - OH, I THOUGHT MARAMA'S EYEBROWS, ACTUALLY. I MEAN, SHE WAS ENORMOUSLY EXPRESSIVE AND TO THE POINT. SHE USED BODY LANGUAGE BRILLIANTLY. BUT I DID FEEL AT SOME STAGE ABOUT THE TWO OF THEM ` MARAMA AND DEBBIE ` 'FOR GOD'S SAKE, GET A ROOM.' YOU KNOW? THIS IS SORT OF` I WANT TO HEAR A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT KIND OF EQUIVALENT OF A BROMANCE. I ACTUALLY WANT TO HEAR THEM DEBATING ON SOME POINTS. - THERE WAS QUITE A DOUBLE ACT GOING ON. - IT WAS HUGE, BUT IT WAS WONDERFUL. IT WAS GREAT TELEVISION. - GREAT TELEVISION. - IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH THAT? NO? - NO. NO. - DON'T WE WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER? DON'T WE WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER? - NO. (LAUGHS) - WHEN I SAY WE... - NO, NO, I DON'T. YOU GOT TO TALK ABOUT THE ACTUAL` THE BASELINE OF THE POLICIES, AND THE POLICIES, I DON'T THINK, APART FROM WEALTH TAX CAME THROUGH VERY STRONGLY. AND ON THAT SCORE, ACTUALLY, I HAVE TO PRAISE THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE ACTUALLY DONE WHAT LABOUR WON'T DO AND THAT IS PUT THEIR HAND UP FOR A WEALTH TAX, AND I THINK THEY MADE THAT POINT VERY WELL. - OK, SO I'M JUST GOING TO` WE WERE DOING SOME QUICK TOTALS DURING THE ACTUAL DEBATE AS TO WHO SPOKE THE MOST. AND BY FAR AWAY IT WAS DAVID SEYMOUR, RIGHT? HE WAS ON MESSAGE, THEN WINSTON, THEN MARAMA, THEN DEBBIE. DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU? HE SEEMED TO BE LIKE JUST ON MESSAGE BUT SCRIPTED, JENNA? - YEAH, AND HE WAS GOING ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND IN CIRCLES. HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY USE THE TIME THAT HE USED UP ALL THAT WELL. I THOUGHT DEBBIE NGAREWA-PACKER USED THE FEW AMOUNT OF WORDS THAT SHE SPOKE REALLY WELL. SHE HAD BRILLIANT LINES ON WHAT THEY WOULD DO WITH THE WEALTH TAX, TALKING ABOUT TOUGH ON CRIME, SOFT ON POVERTY, NAILED SOME REALLY QUICK, EASY SOUNDBITES THAT ARE REALLY EASILY DIGESTIBLE. DAVID SEYMOUR LOST THE CROWD. - ALL RIGHT, DAVID SEYMOUR LOST THE CROWD. WHAT DO YOU THINK, SIMON? - I THINK IT'S THE SAME. I THINK IT WAS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF BECAUSE YOU TALK A LOT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO KEEP LISTENING. AND IT SEEMED TO ME THE DYNAMIC OF THE DEBATE WAS VERY MUCH MARAMA AND DEBBIE VERSUS WINSTON, AND DAVID SEYMOUR WAS IN THE CORNER THERE. - BUT THERE` THERE WAS WINSTON VERSUS DAVID. RIGHT? - AND THEN THAT HAPPENED. - THEN THAT HAPPENED. RIGHT. AND WINSTON WAS TRYING TO PLAY THE ADULT IN THE ROOM. WAS THAT SUCCESSFUL. - YEAH, IT WAS VERY REAGANITE. ACTUALLY, IF YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE THAT LONG AND CAN REMEMBER BACK THAT FAR AND THAT I WON'T EXPLOIT MY AGE AND I'M NOT PREPARED TO EXPLOIT FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES THE YOUTH AND EXPERIENCE OF MY OPPONENT. EXCEPT HE DID, OF COURSE. AND HE HAD SOME BRILLIANT LINES, AND I THINK HE DEBATED. BUT DAVID WOULD NOT DEBATE BACK. DAVID JUST PLAYED TO THE CAMERA, GAVE A FAIRLY PRO FORMA EXPOSITION OF POLICIES. BUT APART FROM THE HACKNEYED LINE ON KATE SHEPPARD, NEVER HAD ANY ZINGERS. - HE GOT AN EYE ROLL FOR THAT ONE. - YES, HE DID. - SO LET'S TALK ABOUT STANDOUT MOMENTS. SIMON, DO YOU THINK THERE WAS A STANDOUT? - I DID SAY THAT STANDOUT MOMENT BEFORE WAS WITH MARAMA. BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN WINSTON PETERS SAID THE ADULTS IN THE ROOM, AND WE WANT THEM TO KEEP THEIR TROUSERS ON ` A STANDOUT MOMENT FOR SHEER ODDITY. - YEAH, THAT WAS WEIRD. - I REALLY LIKED THAT. - BUT WHAT WE'LL REMEMBER IS THE ODDITY OF IT, AND I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S QUITE ON BRAND FOR HIM. - HE GOT A PUNCH IN WITH THE 'I'M NOT A CIS WHITE MAN', THOUGH. I THOUGHT THAT WAS QUITE COOL. AND INTERESTINGLY, WHEN YOU LOOK ABOUT IT, ALL FOUR, AND I DON'T THINK WE'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE, BUT ALL FOUR ARE MAORI TO SOME DEGREE OR OTHER. AND I THINK THE LEADERS AND THE POWERBROKERS AT THE SELECTION, BE IT THAT THE TWO ON THE SIDE ARE DIFFERENT TO THE TWO IN THE MIDDLE, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF THEIR ADVOCACY, BUT THIS IS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY. - IN TERMS OF DEBBIE AND MARAMA SORT OF LIKE USING THE WORD MATUA TO WINSTON, BUT NOT REALLY. THEY DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT, DID THEY, JENNA? - UH... (LAUGHS) I'M NOT GONNA SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THEM ON THAT ONE. - IT'S JUST INTERESTING THAT DYNAMIC THOUGH, WASN'T IT, SIMON? - I'M NOT SURE WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO BE SCEPTICAL OF THAT. IT'S A PRETTY STANDARD THING TO DO. - MM. MM. OK. THEY WEREN'T TAKING THE MICKEY AT ALL? - I DON'T THINK SO. - WELL, HIS RIPOSTE WAS 'YOU'RE NOT ON THE MARAE NOW.' - YEAH, THAT'S... - IT WAS GOING BOTH WAYS, THE BANTER. - DO YOU THINK THERE WAS ANY POSSIBILITY THAT DAVID AND WINSTON ARE GOING TO WORK TOGETHER, JENNA? - OH NO. LOOK AT THEM. THEY CAN'T AGREE ON ANYTHING. AND I THINK DAVID SEYMOUR, I THINK ONE OF WINSTON'S BEST JABS AT HIM ACTUALLY WAS, 'HE'S NOT BAITING. HE IS IMITATING.' IT IS QUITE INCREDIBLE TO WATCH THE REAL LIFE TRANSFORMATION OF DAVID SEYMOUR INTO A KIND OF LOW-RENT WINSTON PETERS WHEN HE HATES THE GUY. (CROWD OOHS) - OK. SIMON? - WELL, I THINK THE DEFINING MOMENT ON THAT QUESTION CAME WHEN WINSTON PETERS SAID TO DAVID SEYMOUR, 'I WILL SORT YOU OUT AROUND THE CABINET TABLE.' AND THAT'S NOT WORKING TOGETHER. THAT'S NOT EVEN INDICATING WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO WORK TOGETHER. - OH, POLITICS, YOU KNOW, MAKES BEDFELLOWS OF THE MOST INTERESTING AND DYNAMIC PEOPLE. AND WE'VE SEEN THAT IN MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS OVER THE YEARS. IF IT COMES DOWN TO IT, I THINK THEY WILL MAKE A DEAL FOR POWER. - YOU DO? - IF THEY HAVE TO. YES, I DO. AND IT REALLY ALSO COMES DOWN IF CHRIS LUXON WHAT HE CAN DO AS WELL, YOU KNOW? - WELL, HE'S KEEPING ALL HIS OPTIONS OPEN, ISN'T HE? - THEY CAN'T SIT AROUND A CABINET TABLE TOGETHER. RIGHT? SO ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO HAVE TO SIT ON THE OUTSIDE. THOSE TWO CANNOT SIT AT THE CABINET TABLE. - WELL, IF THEY TRY, IT MAY NOT LAST VERY LONG. - (CHUCKLES) - SO THEY WILL BE THE COALITION OF CHAOS. - WELL, I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR. - SO JUST FINALLY, THAT WAS A VERY SPIRITED DEBATE. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF INTERESTING ONE-LINERS AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT. SO YOU STILL SAY THAT MARAMA WAS THE WINNER, EVERYBODY? OR NOT? NOT YOU, FRAN? - NO, I DON'T. HER EYEBROWS. HER EYEBROWS. - HER EYEBROWS. - AND HER BODY LANGUAGE. - CLOSELY FOLLOWED BY WINSTON PETERS' EYE ROLLS. - OK. EYEBROWS AND EYE ROLLS. I THINK THAT'S HOW WE'RE GOING TO REMEMBER IT. - AND THAT MOMENT WHEN WINSTON PETERS STUCK UP HIS HAND, FOR A HIGH FIVE. - I'M SORRY. WE'VE GOT TO GO. THANK YOU SO MUCH TO SIMON, JENNA AND FRAN. AND THAT WRAPS UP OUR POWERBROKERS' DEBATE. I HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT TIME. YOU CAN CATCH REBECCA WRIGHT'S BREAKDOWN OF AM TOMORROW. BUT FOR NOW, THANKS TO OUR DEBATERS, OUR ANALYSTS, OUR LIVE AUDIENCE, AND TO YOU, OUR VIEWERS. WE HOPE IT WAS ILLUMINATING. WE HOPE IT WAS USEFUL. NGA MIHI NUI. TENA TATOU KATOA. CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND SAM BAKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023