THAT IS YOUR WEATHER. THAT'S NEWSHUB LIVE AT SIX FOR TODAY. ORIINI KAIPARA AND THE NEWSHUB LATE TEAM ARE HERE ON THREE AT 10.10. I'M MIKE MCROBERTS. AND I'M SAMANTHA HAYES, AND NOW WE'RE CROSSING TO PATRICK GOWER FOR THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. IT'S DECISION TIME. WE WILL GET NEW ZEALAND BACK ON TRACK. THE BATTLE LINES ARE DRAWN. DENTAL CARE FREE. TAX RELIEF FOR PEOPLE. THE GLOVES ARE OFF. THERE IS A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR HOLE. GRANT ROBERTSON IS THE WORST FINANCE MINISTER. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. THE RED CHRIS... OR THE BLUE CHRIS. THERE IS TOO MUCH AT STAKE. ONE WILL LEAD OUR NEXT GOVERNMENT. WHO DESERVES YOUR BOAT? WHO DESERVES YOUR VOTE? IT COULD COME DOWN TO THIS. CAPTIONS BY JAMES BROWN AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 (APPLAUSE) TENA TATOU KATOA. THERE ARE JUST 17 DAYS TO GO. WE'RE LIVE FROM THE Q THEATRE IN DOWNTOWN AUCKLAND, WITH 200 UNDECIDED VOTERS IN THE HOUSE. WE ARE HERE TO DEBATE THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY. AND WE HAVE A WHOLE SECTION OF OUR AUDIENCE WHO REALLY ARE THE FUTURE. THIS IS OUR YOUTH WING. THEY'RE ALL 25 AND UNDER. WELCOME. (APPLAUSE) LET'S RIP INTO IT AND BRING IN OUR LEADERS, LABOUR LEADER CHRIS HIPKINS AND NATIONAL LEADER CHRISTOPHER LUXON. (APPLAUSE) (APPLAUSE) DEVELOP SOME, YOU WON THE COIN TOSS. IS CRIME OUT OF CONTROL? IT'S ABSOLUTELY OUT OF CONTROL. EVERY NEW ZEALANDER FEELS LESS SAFE, BECAUSE WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS BEEN SOFT ON CRIME. CHRIS HIPKINS, IS CRIME OUT OF CONTROL? CRIME IS ALWAYS A CHALLENGE. YOU SOLVE CRIME BY MORE POLICE ON THE BEAT, GIVING THEM THE RESOURCES THEY NEED, AND LET THE POLICE KEEP UP WITH CHALLENGES THEY FACE. YOU CAN'T SOLVE CRIME BY STARVING THE POLICE OF RESOURCES. IS CRIME OUT OF CONTROL? YOU SAID IT WAS A CHALLENGE. THERE ARE SOME AREAS OF CRIME, PARTICULAR YOUTH OFFENDING, WHERE WE HAVE MORE WORK TO DO. BEFORE WE GET INTO THE DEBATE, I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE, ANYONE INNOCENT CAUGHT UP IN THE IN INCIDENT AND WEST AUCKLAND. I WILL START WITH THE SCENARIO FOR BOTH OF YOU. IT IS MIDDAY, YOU ARE IN YOUR LOCAL DAIRY, AND A YOUNG SHOPLIFTER, 13 YEARS OLD, COMES OUT OF THE STORE, WITH SOME STUFF THEY HAVE STOLEN. I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO STOP THIS PERSON, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? IF YOU CAN STOP THEM SAFELY, OF COURSE YOU WANT TO STOP THEM. BUT ACTUALLY, PEOPLE HAVE TO KEEP THEMSELVES AND THOSE AROUND THEM SAFE. THIS IS THE JOB OF THE POLICE. IF THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN HARM'S WAY, AND RISK INJURY TO THEMSELVES OR OTHERS, THEY SHOULD LEAVE IT TO THE POLICE. WOULD YOU STOP THE PERSON? THAT WOULD DEPEND WHETHER I COULD DO SOMETHING SAFELY. I THINK YOU WOULD MOST NEW ZEALANDERS BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. BUT IT COMES BECAUSE THERE IS FRUSTRATION THAT CRIME IS OUT OF CONTROL. RETAIL CRIME IS UP. YOU WOULD TRY AND STOP THAT PERSON? THE SAD THING IS, I DON'T WANT TO CONDONE PEOPLE TO TAKE ACTION INTO THEIR OWN HANDS. BUT PEOPLE ARE FEELING FRUSTRATED ABOUT IT. YOU TALK TO SHOP OWNERS AND SHOPKEEPERS. THEY GO TO WORK AS IF THEY ARE GOING TO A WAR ZONE. WOULD YOU FIND THAT SCENARIO FRIGHTENING? WOULD THAT BE SCARY? ABSOLUTELY. THE REASON I ASK THAT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE A SHOPKEEPER HERE. PREETTI. SHE IS JUST UP THERE. SHE HAS A SHOP WHERE SHE IS ROBBED ALL THE TIME. SHE HAS BEEN HELD UP. SHE HAS FOG CANNONS AND ALARM. IT STILL KEEPS HAPPENING. THE LATEST INCIDENT INVOLVED YOUNG OFFENDERS WHO SMASHED INTO HER STORE TO STEAL VAPES, LOLLIES AND ENERGY DRINKS. PREETTI SAYS NEW ZEALAND HAS CHANGED AND SHE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT YOU TWO WOULD DO WITH THE LAWLESSNESS. WHAT IS ONE INITIATIVE YOU HAVE TO PREVENT YOUTH CRIME? WE HAVE A PROGRAM TO IDENTIFY WHO THOSE YOUNG OFFENDERS ARE, TURNING THEIR LIVES AROUND. LOCKING THEM UP OR SENDING THEM TO BOOT CAMPS, WHERE THEY REOFFEND AGAIN, WON'T CHANGE THINGS. DEALING WITH DYSFUNCTIONS SO THEY DON'T REOFFEND. THE PROGRAMME HAS A 80% SUCCESS RATE. 80% OF KIDS IDENTIFIED AREN'T GOING ON TO REOFFEND. CHRISTOPHER LUXON? IT DOESN'T WORK. RETAIL CRIME IS UP 100%. BOOT CAMPS DON'T WORK. WE HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR YOUNG OFFENDERS. COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS FROM DAY ONE. I CAN TELL YOU, OUR MILITARY LEADERS ARE OUR BEST LEADERS. 80% OF KIDS WENT ON TO REOFFEND AFTER BOOT CAMPS. THEY DON'T WORK. LSV PROGRAM DOES NOT WORK. PEOPLE REOFFEND. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOT WORKING. YOU LIKE TO SAY THINGS. 80% OF PEOPLE REOFFENDING I WILL JUMP . IN BOOT CAMPS HAVE BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THE LSV PROGRAM, FOR KIDS UP TO 25. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT WORKS. 15 TO 17-YEAR-OLDS, OUR BEST MILITARY LEADERS, AND COMMUNITY ORGANISATIONS THERE. THE NATIONAL PARTY TRIED THAT. REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKE WILL NOT WORK. IF THE NATIONAL PARTY HAD NOT STARVE THE POLICE OF RESOURCES, CLOSED POLICE STATIONS, THEN WE WOULDN'T HAVE SO MANY CHALLENGES. YOU HAVE HAD SIX YEARS, AND CRIME HAS GOTTEN WORSE. BREAKING IN HERE, ON THAT, BOTH OF YOU, I ASKED WHAT YOU COULD DO TO PREVENT THIS CRIME FROM HAPPENING. TO APTLY PREVENT IT. DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING? MAKING SURE YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS ARE ENGAGED IN SOMETHING POSITIVE AND CONSTRUCTIVE, SO THEY DON'T GET INTO TROUBLE. THAT IS WHERE OUR FOCUS HAS GOT TO BE. IN TERMS OF THE KIDS WE HAVE IDENTIFIED IN REPEAT RETAIL OFFENDING, 90% OF THEM LIVE IN A HOUSEHOLD WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN TO PRISON. WE HAVE TO BREAK THE CYCLE OF OFFENDING. WE WANT TO INVEST IN THE SOCIAL INVESTMENT. POWERFUL TARGETED INTERVENTION. YOU HAVE JUST SAID YOU ARE OPPOSED TO THE POLICY I TALKED ABOUT. CALM DOWN. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE INVEST STRONGLY IN FAMILIES BY MAKING POWERFUL TARGETED INTERVENTIONS. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WE WILL MOVE ONTO A TOPIC YOU BOTH WANT TO TALK ABOUT, GANGS. THERE ARE ABOUT 9000 GANG MEMBERS IN NEW ZEALAND. CHRISTOPHER LUXON, YOU WANT TO TAKE THEIR PATCHES OFF THEM. IN AUSTRALIA, THE GANGS ARE REACTING TO THE LAWS WE WANT TO INTRODUCE BY FORMING A VERTICAL PARTY. HERE THEY JUST HAVE TO VOTE FOR LABOUR. YOU DON'T GIVE GANG MEMBERS $2.7 MILLION FOR REHAB SERVICES. WHY DID JOHN KEY INTRODUCE THAT? THAT'S A POLICY INTRODUCED UNDER JOHN KEY. WHY DID THEY DO IT? I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO WITH GANGS. PADDY IS THE MODERATOR. PADDY IS THE MODERATOR. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A FIGHT. LET'S DO THAT RESPECTFULLY. ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE POLICE TO TAKE 9000 PATCHES OFF GANG MEMBERS? WE WILL BAND PATCHES IN PUBLIC PLACES. TO WEAR A GANG PATCH AND PUBLIC, IT IS INTIMIDATION. WE WILL GIVE THEM POWERS TO POLICE AROUND DISPERSAL POWERS. WHEN YOU GET THE COPS TO TAKE THE PATCHES OFF THEM? WILL THEY RIP THEM OFF? THEY WILL MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT WEARING GANG PATCHES. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO DO IT? DISPERSAL POWERS. CHRIS HIPKINS, WHY ARE YOU GOING TO LET THEM HAVE GANG PATCHES? WE DO IT AND GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS. HE WANTS TO DISPERSE ACTIVITY. HOW WILL POLICE IDENTIFY GANG MEMBERS, IF YOU HAVE TAKEN THEIR PATCHES OFF THEM? (APPLAUSE) CHRISTOPHER LUXON, EXPLAIN THIS. I WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER SCENARIO. LET'S SAY THERE IS A GANG FUNERAL FOR A MONGREL MOB MEMBER IN A SMALL TOWN. 500 PEOPLE TURN UP TO THE FUNERAL WITH THEIR PATCHES ON. THEIR FAMILIES AND CHILDREN THERE. LOTS OF THE PEOPLE ATTENDING HATE TO THE NEW ZEALAND POLICE. DO YOU EXPECT THE POLICE TO GO IN AND CONFRONT THEM OVER THE PATCHES? YES I DO, AND I GIVE THEM POWERS TO BREAK UP INTIMIDATING BEHAVIOUR. LET ME ANSWER THE QUESTION. WE HAD AN EXAMPLE OF THAT, WE GANGS CAME TO OPOTIKI, THE SCHOOL WAS CLOSED FOR A WEEK, AND PEOPLE LIVED IN FEAR. YOU WANT THE COPS TO GO IN IN INTO THE FUNERAL? WE WILL GIVE THE POLICE THE POWERS TO BREAK UP GANGS. THE MESSAGE IS, GANG LIFE IS NOT A PATHWAY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. WHAT HE IS SUGGESTING IS THAT POLICE START A BRAWL WITH GANG MEMBERS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FUNERAL. THAT ISN'T REALISTIC. WE HAVE CHANGED THE LAW SO THAT THE POLICE CAN GO AFTER THE GANGS AFTER-THE-FACT, TAKE THEIR MOTORBIKES AFTER-THE-FACT. TELLING THEM TO GO INTO A FUNERAL AND BREAK THAT UP WOULD REQUIRE THOUSANDS OF POLICE AND BE A DANGEROUS SITUATION. GANG MEMBERS ARE UP UNDER YOUR WATCH. DEPORTATIONS FROM AUSTRALIA. YOU HAVE A POLICY ON THIS, TO GIVE POLICE THE POWERS TO SEIZE VEHICLES WE WANT TO GO AFTER THEIR GUNS CONVOYS, CASH. HOW DO YOU EXPECT POLICE TO GO AFTER A CONVOY? POLICE HAVE ALREADY USED THE LAW WE PUT IN PLACE TO FOLLOW-UP AFTER THE EVENT WE TALKED ABOUT. THERE WERE CHARGES LAID AS A RESULT OF THE LAW CHANGE WE HAVE MADE. BECAUSE POLICE LET THOSE CONVOYS GO THROUGH. THEY DID UNDER NATIONAL AS WELL. THEY HAVE TO PRESERVE PUBLIC SAFETY. TELLING POLICE TO GO IN AND BREAK UP HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE GETTING TOGETHER IN A VOLATILE SITUATION WILL PUT THE POLICE IN MORE DANGER. FOLLOWING UP AFTERWARDS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE WHO BREAK THE LAW FACE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT, THAT IS THE MORE RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO. YOUR POLICY, YOU LET THE CONVOY INTIMIDATE FIRST, HELP THEM THROUGH THE TOWN, AND TAKE PHOTOS OF THEM. CHRIS HAS INDICATED HE WILL PUT THOUSANDS OF POLICE IN TO BREAK UP A FUNERAL OF 500 PEOPLE. THAT IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY. LET'S TALK ABOUT POLICE POLICE NUMBERS. YOU HAVE POLICY TO BRING IN 300 NEW POLICE. YOU BOTH HAVE POLICIES TO BE TOUGH ON GANGS. ONE OF US DOES. ONE OF US DOESN'T. HERE IS A COMMITMENT YOU CAN BOTH MAKE. WILL EITHER OF YOU MAKE SURE NEW ZEALAND ALWAYS HAS MORE SWORN POLICE OFFICERS THAN GANG MEMBERS? ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE NINE GANG MEMBERS TODAY FOR 10 POLICE OFFICERS IN SEVERAL DISTRICTS. WOULD YOU MAKE THAT COMMITMENT AS WELL? YES, BECAUSE WE HAVE 1800 MORE POLICE MORE ON THE BEAT, BECAUSE WE TRAINED MORE. THE NUMBER OF POLICE WENT BACKWARDS UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THERE ARE 9000 GANG MEMBERS AT THE MOMENT, 10,700 COPS. I WANT LESS GANG MEMBERS AND MORE COPS. THAT IS EXACTING WHAT I WANT. I WILL MOVE ONTO DRUG LAWS AND DRUG CRIME. MDMA IS THE DRUG OF CHOICE FOR MANY YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS. DO YOU THINK SOMEONE WHO GOES TO RHYTHM AND VINES AT NEW YEAR'S EVE AND TAKES MDMA AS A CRIMINAL? WE HAVE THE RIGHT APPROACH AT THE MOMENT, A HEALTH APPROACH. IT IS APPROPRIATE. IT IS UNDER THE CRIMES ACT. PEOPLE WHO TAKE MDMA, ARE THEY CRIMINALS? PERSONALLY, NO THEY ARE NOT. I DON'T THINK THEY ARE. YOU WILL CHANGE THE MDMA LAW? THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO TO MAKE SURE FESTIVALS, WE HAVE GOOD DRUG TESTING. IF THEY ARE NOT CRIMINALS, YOU HAVE TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE CRIMES ACT. THEY ARE CRIMINALS. MDMA IS CRIMINAL. YOU CAN TEST DRUGS IN FESTIVALS. THAT WAS A PRETTY BIG U-TURN. I BETTER COME TO YOU. ARE THEY CRIMINALS OR NOT? PEOPLE AT RHYTHM AND VINES TAKING MDMA? UNDER THE LAW, THEY ARE. WE PUT IN PLACE DRUG TESTING AT FESTIVALS, WHICH NATIONAL OPPOSED. ARE THEY CRIMINALS IN YOUR EYES? I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO REVIEWING LAWS AROUND DRUGS. YOU HAVE HAD SIX YEARS. WE HAVE TO TREAT DRUGS AS A HEALTH ISSUE. QUICK QUESTION BEFORE THE BREAK. FOR DECADES, POLITICIANS HERE AND AROUND THE WORLD HAVE BEEN ASKED WHETHER THEY HAVE SMOKED CANNABIS. HAVE EITHER OF YOU DONE MDMA? (APPLAUSE) CHRIS HIPKINS? NO. NO. BECAUSE IT IS CRIMINAL. COMING UP, WE'RE TALKING THE COST OF LIVING. WHO WILL PUT MORE MONEY IN YOUR POCKETS? THIS IS NEWSHUB'S LEADERS' DEBATE, LIVE FROM THE Q THEATRE IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU. WE'RE TALKING THE COST OF LIVING NOW. THE NUMBERS FOR US, THE TOTAL EXTRA AMOUNT THAT KIWI HOUSEHOLDS ARE TRYING TO PAY FOR TRANSPORT, FOOD AND OTHER EXPENSES COMPARED TO 3 YEARS AGO. THIS IS QUITE SHOCKING. IT IS ABOUT 240 BUCKS A WEEK, AND FIXED MORTGAGES IT IS EVEN HIGHER. MANY KIWIS ARE IN SURVIVAL MODE. WHICH OF YOU IS GOING TO EASE THE PAIN? WE ARE. WE KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY AND MANAGE IT, SO WE CAN REDUCE INFLATION. TO NUMBERS NEW ZEALANDERS NEED TO KNOW IS 80% AND 100 BILLION. THERE HAS BEEN 80% INCREASE IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN 80% IMPROVEMENT IN HEALTH, INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS OR ANYTHING. THIS GOVERNMENT UNDER CHRIS AS ADDICTED TO SPENDING. $100 MILLION A WEEK FOR SUPERANNUATED'S IS NOT WASTEFUL. HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS OF DEBT. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BILLION DOLLARS CHRISTOPHER LIKES AND LIKES TO TALK ABOUT. HUNDRED 50 MILLION OF THAT HOSTED SUPERANNUATED'S. THAT IS NOT WASTEFUL. HEALTH IS NOT WASTEFUL. HUNDRED MILLION GOES INTO EDUCATION. THESE ARE NOT WASTEFUL SPENDING. YOU ARE PUTTING MORE MONEY INTO SUPER ANNUITANTS AND HEALTH, EDUCATION AND HOUSEFUL. THAT IS NOT WASTEFUL. PAYING PEOPLE MORE SO THEY CAN PAY THEIR BILLS. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PAY THEIR BILLS, RATHER THAN THE BICKERING ABOUT THAT. IT IS WHAT HAS CAUSED IT. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS FAILED ECONOMICS. WHO WAS GOING TO EASE THE PAIN FOR PEOPLE QUICKER? THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS, COST OF LIVING MUST GO DOWN. WINNING THE BATTLE ON INFLATION. THE SECOND THING IS SUPPORT PEOPLE WITH TARGETED MEASURES THAT ARE GOING TO MAKE A PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE, LIKE CUTTING THE COST OF EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION. MAKING PUBLIC TRANSPORT CHEAPER, PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS. YOU DON'T MENTION GST. THE THINGS THAT WE WANT TO DO REMAIN. WE ARE GOING TO ASK ABOUT THE ONE YOU DIDN'T MENTION, WHICH IS GST. WHAT ABOUT THE GST? GST FRUIT AND VEGETABLES, PEOPLE WATCHING TONIGHT, IT IS ABOUT A DOLLAR AT THE SUPERMARKET AT THE MOMENT. UNDER YOUR POLICY, IT SHOULD COST $0.85, UNLESS THE SUPERMARKET MACHINE SUCKS IT UP. CAN YOU GUARANTEE PEOPLE THAT THAT ORANGE WILL ACTUALLY COST $0.85 IF IT IS A ONE DOLLAR ORANGE? THERE ARE SEASONAL FLUCTUATIONS ON THE PRICE OF FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. IN THE WINTER, AND ORANGE COST MORE THAN IN THE SUMMER. THAT WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE. THE ORANGE COSTS A DOLLAR. THAT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE IT? A CLIPBOARD AT ALL THE STORES IN NEW ZEALAND, YOU WILL GET THE SAME PRICE. SPEAKING OF CLIPBOARDS, AND ECONOMISTS, THERE HAVE BEEN QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR TAX POLICY AS WELL. I KNOW YOU REFUSE TO RELATE YOUR COSTINGS. WE ARE NOT GOING TO RELITIGATE. . THE NUMBERS DON'T ADD UP THAT IS NOT TRUE. YOU CAN CLEAN IT UP BY ANSWERING THIS FOR KIWIS RIGHT NOW. WILL YOU RESIGN IF THAT POLICY DOES NOT BRING IN THE FOREIGN CASH? I WILL RESIGN IF IT DOESN'T BRING TAX RELEASE. THE TAX PLAN. THE QUESTION IS THIS, WILL YOU RESIGN IF YOU DO NOT BRING IN THE FOREIGN CASH? I AM COMMITTED TO DELIVERING CASH RELIEF. STILL NOT AN ANSWER. I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU ONE MORE GO. CLEAR IT UP FOR KIWIS. WILLIE RESIGN IF THE TAX POLICY DOES NOT BRING IN THE FOREIGN CASH THAT YOU RECKON IT WILL? I WANT TO MAKE SURE I DELIVER TAX RELIEF. THAT IS A MUCH BETTER RESPONSE. I HAVE GIVEN UP. WE ARE MOVING ONTO PETROL. PETROL IS TIPPED TO HIT $3.50 A LITRE BY CHRISTMAS. WOULD EITHER OF YOU CUT TAXES ON PETROL AGAIN? ARE YOU PREPARED TO CUT? WE WILL NOT INCREASE THE FUEL EXCISE TAX IN OUR THREE-YEAR TERM. THAT IS A VERY TRICKY ANSWER. WHAT HE SAID IS THAT THROUGH THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME THAT WILL INCREASE THE PRICE OF CARBON WHICH WILL INCREASE THE PRICE OF PETROL. HE IS GIVING WITH ONE HAND AND TAKING WITH THE OTHER. YOU WANTED TO GO UP. THAT IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL PUT THE PRICE OF CARBON UP MORE. WILL YOU CHANGE THE PRICE OF PETROL? IT IS A NO. FUEL EXCISE TAX. WE WILL GET RID OF THE AUCKLAND REGIONAL FUEL TAX. WE HAVE MOVED ON FROM PETROL. WE ARE TALKING POVERTY. NEW ZEALAND HAS A TARGET TO GET CHILDREN OF POVERTY. THEY CALL IT MATERIAL HARDSHIP. CHRIS ATKINS, WILL YOU RECOMMIT TO THAT TARGET? ABSOLUTELY. CHRISTOPHER LIKES AND WILL YOU COMMIT? WE LIFTED 77,000 KIDS OUT OF POVERTY IN THE LAST SIX YEARS. WE HAVE DONE THAT BY CHANGING THE WAY BENEFITS ARE CALCULATED. CHRISTOPHER WANTS TO REVERSE THAT CHANGE IN FORCE KIDS INTO POVERTY. THAT IS THE EFFECT OF THE WELFARE POLICY THEY ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY, MORE KIDS IN POVERTY IN NEW ZEALAND. THAT IS NOT FAIR. IT IS TRUE. NO. WHAT WE ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY WAS IF YOU ARE AVAILABLE AND CAPABLE OF WORKING, THE RIGHT TO RESPONSIBILITY IN NEW ZEALAND IS SIMPLE. YOU HAVE OBLIGATIONS TO GET A JOB AND PREPARE YOURSELF TO GET A JOB. YOU WILL MAKE SURE THEIR OBLIGATIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE CLEAR ABOUT THAT. THAT IS A REASONABLE THING. WE HAVE PEOPLE WAKING UP THIS MORNING AND GOING TO WORK, PAYING TAX, GIVING THE MONEY TO CHRIS. YOU CALLED THEM BOTTOM FEEDERS. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO NEED HELP, BUT THEY HAVE OBLIGATIONS AS WELL. THAT IS REASONABLE. GOOD ANSWERS FROM BOTH OF YOU. WE ARE GOING TO CHANGE THINGS UP. I NEED A ONE WORD ANSWER ON THIS NEXT QUESTION. THIS IS TURNING INTO A DEBATE. IT IS BETTER THAN THE CHASE. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE. AND ONE WORD, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE ECONOMY? RECOVERING. BROKEN. THOSE ARE DIFFERENT ANSWERS. LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW YOU ARE GOING TO MANAGE THE RECOVERY OR BROKEN RECOVERY. LABOUR RELEASED A PLAN TO PAY. WHERE IS YOURS? IT IS COMING ON FRIDAY. BEING THAT THERE IS A TEARING SET OF BOOKS, WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE CHRIS IS PLAYING A GAME WHERE AFTER-SCHOOL CLIFFS ARE AROUND FARM ACT FUNDING OR SKILL LUNCHES. IF YOU CAN'T KEEP YOUR PROMISES IN OPPOSITION, WHY WOULD NEW ZEALAND BELIEVE YOU WILL KEEP YOUR PROMISES? LET'S GET DOWN TO SOME COLD HARD FACTS. LET'S TALK DEBT. IT MEANS WHICHEVER ONE OF YOU WINS THE ELECTION, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE HARDLY ANY MONEY TO SPEND. BOTH OF YOU ADMIT THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CUT SOME THINGS. YOU SAY $8 BILLION WORTH OF CUTS. USE A $4 BILLION OF CUTS. LET'S MAKE THIS REAL FOR PEOPLE AT HOME. HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO UNDER THOSE CUTS? MAKE IT REAL. BE HONEST. THAT IS THE APPROACH. WE WANT TO HAVE A 6 1/2% SAVING GENERATED FROM CORE AGENCIES. HOW MANY JOBS? THAT IS GOING TO BE UP TO CEOS. HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF JOBS? I DON'T KNOW. ? HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF JOBS I AM INTERESTED IN THE SAVINGS. IF THEY WANT TO FILL VACANCIES. I'M GOING TO BRING YOU IN. HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF JOBS? I SET UP $4 BILLION WORTH OF SAVINGS WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO COME FROM. WE CAN MAKE THOSE SAVINGS WITHOUT REDUCING SIGNIFICANTLY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN WORK. CHRISTOPHER'S PLAN IS ON TOP OF THAT. THOSE ARE CUTS THEY WANT TO MAKE ON TOP OF THAT. THE ACT PARTY SAY IT IS GOING TO BE 15,000 JOBS CUT. 6 1/2% DOLLAR SAVINGS. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OUT OF JOBS BEFORE CHRISTMAS. WHY WON'T YOU SAY HOW MANY JOBS IT WILL BE? THAT IS THE BETTER WAY TO APPROACH IT. FRONT-LINE SERVICES. IMMIGRATION. SHOW US YOUR NUMBERS. HOW MANY JOBS IS THAT GOING TO BE? I HAVE JUST EXPLAINED TO YOU 6 1/2%. THAT WILL BE UP TO THE CEOS TO GENERATE THOSE SAVINGS, SO WE CAN REINVEST IN STUFF. THAT IS THOUSANDS OF JOBS. THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE OUT OF JOB. YOU HAVE HIRED MORE PUBLIC SERVICES. YOU HAVE TO STOP. WE HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER STUFF TO DEBATE. , COMING UP AFTER THE BREAK WILL BE TALKING NURSES, DOCTORS, CANCER AND HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. IS A BROKEN? (THUMPS) (GUESTS GASP AND FALL SILENT) (BELLOWS) Call this a feast?! (HEROIC MUSIC) (ARMOUR CLANKS) (HEROIC MUSIC CONTINUES) (PEOPLE CHEER) VOICEOVER: 4 Square. What'll it be today? (APPLAUSE) WELCOME BACK TO THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. THREE YEARS AGO JACINDA ARDERN STOOD ON THE STAGE AND SAID OUR HEALTH SYSTEM WAS BROKEN. SINCE THEN WE HAVE GOT TE WHATU ORA. IS IT FIXED? OUR HEALTH SYSTEM HAS HAD TO GUIDE PEOPLE THROUGH A GLOBAL PANDEMIC. DO I WANT THINGS TO GET BETTER FASTER? OF COURSE I DO. BUT WE STARTED WITH A BROKEN HEALTH SYSTEM. IT IS STILL BROKEN. WE HAVE FANTASTIC PEOPLE, BUT THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN. EVERY SINGLE WAITLIST HAS GONE BACKWARDS. THERE WAS A GLOBAL PANDEMIC. (LAUGHTER) IT IS A WORK IN PROGRESS, BUT IT IS STILL BROKEN. IT IS NOT A WORK IN PROGRESS. IT IS BROKEN. STUFF NEEDS FIXING. TONIGHT WE WILL FIX SOMETHING RIGHT HERE, IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO DO IT. I AM TALKING ABOUT BOWEL CANCER SCREENING. IT IS OUR SECOND BIGGEST CANCER KILLER. 1300 KIWIS DIE EVERY YEAR. THEY ARE GETTING YOUNGER. CAUGHT EARLY, THERE IS A 90% CHANCE OF SURVIVAL. SITTING IN OUR AUDIENCE IS AIMEE ROSE YATES. SHE HAS STAGE IV BOWEL CANCER. SHE IS IN HER 30S. THE NATIONAL AGE FOR SCREENING IS 60. WILL EITHER OF YOU LOWER THE AGE OF SCREENING AND SAVE THE LIVES OF KIWIS? I WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT. WE WOULD LIKE TO DO ON BREAST CANCER SCREENING. THAT MAKES SENSE TO DO THE SAME ON BOWEL CANCER. PADDY, HERE IS THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE A 15% HIGHER MORTALITY RATE ON CANCER THAN AUSTRALIA. WE HAVE TO CLOSE THAT CANCER GAP. DO YOU WANT TO BRING THE BOWEL CANCER SCREENING DOWN? YOU WILL COMMIT? ABSOLUTELY. (APPLAUSE) WE NEED TO PRESS FURTHER, BECAUSE I WANT TO SORT THIS OUT. THE AGE AND AUSTRALIA IS 50, OR 45 IF YOU ASK FOR IT. WHEN YOU COMMIT TO MATCHING AUSTRALIA? WE DID THE SAME ON BREAST CANCER. WE LOOK AT CANADA, THE UK AND AUSTRALIA. WE SHOULD USE THE SAME MEASURES. (APPLAUSE) YES. THANK YOU, BOTH OF YOU. AND THANK YOU FOR COMING. OVER A MONTH AGO, ST JOHN FACED ITS WORST DAY IN THE WAIKATO. ALMOST EVERY AMBULANCE IN THE REGION WAS PARKED, WAITING TO GET INTO THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT. THIS HAS BECOME SO COMMON THERE IS A NAME FOR IT NOW, RAMPING. IS THIS OK? AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? IT IS NOT ONE OF OUR TOP GOALS HAVE TO BE TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT OF HOSPITAL. BY MAKING RESTRICTIONS FREE, *PRESCRIPTIONS. WE CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT. NATIONAL WANTS TO PUT THE FIVE DOLLAR FEEDBACK ON. THAT MEANS MORE PEOPLE ENDING UP IN EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS. MAKING HOMES HEALTHY. WHAT WILL YOU DO TO STOP RAMPING? WE HAVE TO IMPROVE OUR HOMEGROWN WORKFORCE. 4600 NURSES SHORT. THERE ARE 5000 MORE NURSES NOW. THERE ARE 4500 SHORT. PEOPLE WAITING, 30% WEIGHT MORE THAN SIX HOURS. THAT HAS GONE BACKWARDS. STOPPING PEOPLE ENDING UP IN ED HELPS. ALL THOSE WAITLIST TIMES HAVE GONE BACKWARDS. IF YOU GOT A CANCER DIAGNOSIS TODAY, AND IT TAKES FOUR MONTHS TO GET A SPECIALIST APPOINTMENT, THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BEING LIFE-AND-DEATH. THOSE TARGETS SAVE LIVES. THIS IS IMPORTANT, PADDY. UNDER NATIONAL, THEY HAD A TARGET AROUND PEOPLE GETTING THEIR FIRST SPECIALIST APPOINTMENT. I HAVE LETTERS FROM CONSTITUENTS WHERE THEIR DOCTOR REFERRED THEM AND THEY GOT A LETTER BACK FROM THE DHP SAYING WE CAN'T SEE YOU WITHIN SIX MONTHS, SO WE WILL NOT PUT YOU ON THE WAITING LIST. THE TARGET GOT RORTED. YOUR TARGETS MEANT PEOPLE MISSED OUT ON HEALTHCARE. TARGETS SAVE LIVES. SHOW NURSES RESPECT. (APPLAUSE) DO YOU THINK THAT NURSES THAT WORK FOR GPS SHOULD BE THE SAME THAT NURSES THAT WORK HOSPITALS? AT THE MOMENT, THEY ARE NOT. IN AGED CARE, AT GP PRACTICES OR THE DHP, THEY SHOULD BE PAID THE SAME. YOU WILL DO THAT IF YOU WIN? CHRIS HIPKINS, YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO DO THE SAME. WE PUT $200 MILLION TO ACHIEVE THAT. IT IS NOT ACHIEVED. THIS NEGATIVITY FROM CHRIS ISN'T GOOD FOR HIM. I SHOULD GIVE HIM A HUG. IT IS NOT WORKING FOR HIM. YOU DON'T LIKE TO BE CHALLENGED. THE LAST FEW WEEKS, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY NEGATIVE. IT'S NOT YOU! YOU DON'T LIKE BEING CHALLENGED. IF YOU ANSWERED QUESTIONS, I WOULD NEED TO CHALLENGE YOU. WE ARE 4800 NURSES SHORT. 1700 DOCTORS SHORT. WE HAVE AN AUDIENCE OF UNDER 25. GIVE THEM, ANY OF THEM WHO ARE CONSIDERING CAREERS, A ONE SENTENCE PATCH TO WORK FOR OUR HEALTH OF THEM. IF YOU COMMIT YOUR SERVICES TO THE NEW ZEALAND MEDICAL SYSTEM FOR FIVE YEARS, WE I WILL TAKE $22,000 OFF YOUR STUDENT LOAN. WHEN I HAVE SPOKEN TO NURSES IN HOSPITALS, THEY SAY IT IS THE MOST REWARDING JOB. THEY HELP PEOPLE IN THEIR HOUR OF NEED. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE REWARD THEM PROPERLY. THEY HAVE HAD BIG PAY INCREASES UNDER US. THEY WILL CONTINUE TO GET PAY INCREASES, WHICH THEY DIDN'T GET UNDER NATIONAL. YOU WILL GIVE THE NURSES ANOTHER PAY RISE? WHEN THEY NEXT GO INTO BARGAINING, OF COURSE. MOVING ON FROM HEALTH, A SERIOUS QUESTION. DO YOU THINK WE ARE A RACIST COUNTRY? I DON'T THINK WE ARE A RACIST COUNTRY, BUT SOME OF OUR POLITICIANS ARE PLAYING THE RACE CARD. IS ONE OF THEM IN THIS ROOM? HE WANTS TO WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE. WE ARE NOT A RACIST COUNTRY. BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE RACIST WITHIN NEW ZEALAND. I HAVE A QUOTE I WANT TO GIVE YOU. FROM LAST WEEK. FROM A NEW ZEALAND FIRST CANDIDATE. SPEAKING AT A MEETING. I GET ANGRY ABOUT THIS. HE WAS TALKING ABOUT MAORI. CRY IF YOU WANT TO. WE DON'T CARE. YOU PUSHED IT TOO FAR. WE OTHER PARTY WITH THE CULTURAL MANDATE TO CUT OUT YOUR DISEASE AND BURY YOU PERMANENTLY. YOU WANT TO WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE. I DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH THEM. IF I MAKE THE CALL TO STOP YOU THE MAORI PARTY AND THE GREENS COMING TO POWER, I WILL. IS THAT ACCEPTABLE AROUND THE CABINET TABLE? I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT RISK. THREE MORE YEARS OF YOU, TE PATI MAORI AND THE GREENS. YOU WORKED WITH HIM FOR THREE YEARS. I WOULD NEVER DO IT AGAIN. (APPLAUSE) TRUST ME, WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT WINSTON PETERS LATER. WE ARE GETTING THE EARLIER THAN ANYBODY WANTS TO. COMING BACK TO CO-GOVERNANCE, IT IS DIVISIVE. YOU WERE GETTING QUITE DIVISIVE. I WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ASPIRATIONAL. HOW CAN WE UNITE THE COUNTRY? WE CAN UNITE THE COUNTRY BY NOT PLAYING INTO THAT SORT OF DIVISION, LIKE THE QUOTE I JUST READ OUT. WE CAN CALL IT OUT AND SAY IT IS RACIST AND NOT ACCEPTABLE, AND THAT WE WON'T WORK WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PERPETUATING THAT SORT OF THING. CHRISTOPHER LUXON? I CAN TELL YOU, WE ARE ONE COUNTRY. OR NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD BE PROUD ABOUT THE IDENTITIES WE COME FROM. IT HAS MADE NEW ZEALAND A BETTER AND RICHER PLACE, CULTURALLY, ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY. WE NEED TO WORK HARDER AT UNITING THE COUNTRY AND SETTING A VISION OF WHERE WE WANT TO GO AS A COUNTRY. COMING UP, WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR SCHOOLS? WE'RE TALKING EDUCATION. Again. (GRUNTS) (TOASTERS CLICK) (VACUUM HISSES) (OVER SPEAKERS) Again. Again. Again. (TENSE MUSIC) (SIGHS) Crust condition identical. Expensive power made toast. Cheap power made toast. It's all toast. (VOICE DISTORTS) It's all toast. (FEEDBACK WHINES) Again. Same energy. Probably cheaper. (MONITOR BUZZES) (CHOIR SINGS) # Frank! # (TOAST CRUNCHES) (VACUUM HISSES) It's all toast! WELCOME BACK. WE'RE LIVE IN CENTRAL AUCKLAND. THIS IS THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. BOTH OF YOU LEADERS WANT TO BAN STUFF IN OUR SCHOOLS. CHRISTOPHER LUCKS AND YOU WANT TO BAN CELL PHONES. CHRIS ATKINS, YOU DON'T DO NOT. ? SCHOOLS CAN BAN CELL PHONES NOW AND THEY HAVE MY FULL SUPPORT. YOU WANT TO BAN SUGARY DRINKS. WERE NOT? SCHOOLS CAN MAKE THAT DECISION AND MANY ALREADY HAVE. THIS IS WEIRD. WHY NOT BAN BOTH? THERE IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE BASE FOR BANNING SUGARY DRINKS IN SCHOOLS. AT LEADS TO TOOTH DECAY AND BEHAVIOUR. YOU CAN SEE IT WITH SCHOOLS. WE ARE GOING TO SORT THIS OUT BY BANNING BOTH RIGHT NOW. DID YOU GUYS LIKE MATHS AT SCHOOL? I HAD A REALLY GOOD TEACHER WHO TURNED ME ONTO MATHS. I HATED IT. THAT IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU, BECAUSE WE HAVE A MATHS QUESTION. QUESTIO WHAT IS 1/2+�? THREE QUARTERS. IT IS PRETTY EASY. THE REASON I GAVE IT TO YOU AS NOT TO TEST YOUR MATHS BUT TO SHOW PEOPLE THAT ONLY 1/3 OF OUR 11 AND 12-YEAR-OLDS COULD GET THAT ANSWER. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? ABSOLUTELY NOT. KNOW. HALF OUR KIDS ARE ARRIVING AT HIGH SCHOOL NOT READY TO GO BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE FOUNDATIONAL KNOWLEDGE IN PLACE. WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? TO TEACH THE BASICS, AND THAT MEANS AN HOUR OF MATHS, READING AND WRITING EVERY DAY. WHY BRING THE SYSTEM BACK TO THE 1950S? I CARE ABOUT IT. SO DO I. WHY BRING YOUR SYSTEM BACK TO THE 1950S? NATIONAL STANDARDS MADE A GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO CANNOT GET THE BASICS, BECAUSE YOU IMPOSED AN IDEOLOGY IN SCHOOLS THAT DIDN'T. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION FOR 5 1/2 YEARS, SPENT 5 1/2 BILLION DOLLARS MORE HIRED MOORE'S PUBLIC SERVANTS. THREE HOUSING 800 MORE STAFF ROOMS AND TEACHERS. EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT WENT BACKWARDS. HIGH SCHOOL, THEY ARE NOT READY TO GO. PRIMARY SCHOOL UNDER NATIONAL STANDARDS. PRESCHOOL UNDER NATIONAL STANDARDS. YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH AMBITION. WE NEED TO DRIVE OUR ECONOMY FORWARD. WHEN YOU GO INTO A HOSPITAL, WOULD YOU TELL SURGEON HOW TO CONDUCT THE SURGERY? YOUR POLICY OF AN HOUR A DAY. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT FIVE AND SIX-YEAR-OLDS CAN DO MATHS FOR AN HOUR A DAY? I HAVE SAT WITH OUR TEACHERS. THEY ARE BRILLIANT. THEY BRING THIS TO LIFE IN INCREDIBLE WAYS, WHICH MAKES ENGAGING FOR OUR KIDS TO LEARN. CAN THEY DO IT FOR AN HOUR A DAY? THE BASICS SETS OUR KIDS UP FOR SUCCESS. I WANT SCHOOLS TO BE A PLACE WHERE KIDS CAN'T WAIT TO GET OUT OF BED TO GET TO IN THE MORNING THEY ARE SOWING GAUGE, THEY CAN'T WAIT TO GET THERE. WROTE LEARNING WENT OUT IN THE 50S. IT DOES NOT WORK. AT SCHOOL WITH A CONVERSATION PIT, THEY GO BACK AND WRITE A STORY ABOUT IT. THERE IS WAYS. BRILLIANT TEACHERS MAKE THAT WORK. WHY DO YOU THINK? YOU ARE MORE QUALIFIED TO TEACH I AM NOT TOLERATING OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM WHERE 40% OF OUR CHILDREN DON'T TURN UP REGULARLY. THAT NUMBER IS NOT TRUE. START WITH USING FAX. HALF FAIL THE MOST BASIC MATHS READING AND WRITING. THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH WE NEED AMBITION AND THE BASICS. YOU WON'T GET ANY DISAGREEMENT ON ME WITH THE PROBLEM. THERE IS A CHALLENGE HERE. WHAT YOU WON'T GET FROM ANY OTHER KIND OF BUMPER STICKER SLOGANS YOU GET FROM NATIONAL. LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK. IT IS MORE COMPLICATED. THE 15-YEAR-OLDS WHO ARE DOING THOSE TEST TODAY WENT THROUGH THE WHOLE PRIMARY SCHOOL EDUCATION UNDER NATIONAL STANDARDS. THAT WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. WHEN YOU HAVE A SCIENCE CURRICULUM, IT DOESN'T HAVE PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY OR BIOLOGY. THAT IS A PROBLEM. THAT IS NOT TRUE. WE HAVE PLENTY OF OTHER PROBLEMS IN OUR SCHOOLS. ONE OF THE BIGGEST ONES FACING YOUNG PEOPLE IN OUR SCHOOLS AS THE EVER-INCREASING ADDICTION TO VAPING. PRINCIPLES SAY IT IS THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM. THERE ARE OVER 700O. WHICH ONE OF YOU IS GOING TO BRING THAT DOWN THE MOST? THAT IS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS. WE HAVE A MAXIMUM OF 600 FEET SCHOOLS. THEY WILL BE LICENSED. CAN YOU BRING IT DOWN? WE SUPPORT THAT DIRECTION OF TRAVEL. WE LIMIT THE DISTRIBUTION. HOW MANY? ARE YOU ADOPTING MY POLICY? HE IS RIGHT ABOUT YOU NOT HAVING A POLICY. WHAT IS IT? IT IS COMING. IT IS SIMILAR. THERE IS MAKES SENSE. IT IS THE NEXT BEST STEP. WHAT IS WRONG WITH US AGREEING? WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO STRENGTHEN AND MAKE OUR SETTINGS. THERE IS SOMETHING IN HIS POLICY YOU MIGHT NOT AGREE ON. YOU WILL BRING IT DOWN TO 600, BUT 300 M AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL. IT HAS GOT TO BE FURTHER. WE WANT TO HAVE A . LICENSE. IF THE SCHOOL IS IN A TOWN CENTRE, THERE WON'T BE ANYONE ELSE TO PUT IT. YOU HAVEN'T PUT YOUR POLICY OUT YET. WILL BE MORE THAN 300 M? YOU HAVE TIME TO MAKE IT BIGGER. LET ME SAY, IN FAIRNESS TO CHRIS, WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THE GOVERNMENT POLICY TODAY IS 300 M AWAY FROM SCHOOL. THE PROPOSAL IS 600 STORES AND LIMIT THE DISTRIBUTION POINTS. BUT IS A GREAT IDEA THAT MAKES SENSE. LET'S TRY THE SETTINGS AND SEE HOW THEY WORK. IF THEY DON'T WORK AFTER 18 MONTHS, PRESCRIPTION ONLY. FROM RIGHT NOW, WE SHOULD MAKE THE SETTINGS TOUGHER. WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER. IF THAT IS NOT WORKING, YOU WILL MAKE BATES PRESCRIPTION ONLY? IN THE US, THEY ADVERTISE TO THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO NOT VAPE BECAUSE OF HEALTH. WILL YOU MAKE CIGARETTES PRESCRIPTION ONLY? KNOW. WE SHOULD LOOK AT WHAT IS WORKING. IF IT IS NOT WORKING, LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING AND FIND A WAY TO STOP LOOKING KIDS UP TO A NEW ISSUE. WOULD YOU LOOK TO PRESCRIPTION ONLY IN THE FIRST YEAR OF GOVERNMENT? NO. HARDEN UP THE SETTINGS. WE GIVE OURSELVES 18 MONTHS TO 2 YEARS. IF WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING MORE, WE GO FURTHER./ DESCRIPTION ONLY WITHIN THE FIRST TERM OF POTENTIAL NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. OK. SEX EDUCATION. KIDS ARE PRIMARY SCHOOLS AT TAUGHT SEX, SEXUALITY AND GENDER. AS IT THE TEACHERS JOB? IT IS TEACHERS AND PARENTS. IT IS PARENTS PRIMARILY. WE EXPECT PARENTS TO DO READING, WRITING AND MATHS TO DO AS WELL. WE EXPECT TEACHERS TO TEACH SEX. AND GENDER? IT IS IMPORTANT WHAT HAS HAPPENED. THE GOVERNMENT HAS HAD A CURRICULUM AROUND SEX EDUCATION, SEXUALITY EDUCATION. IT HAS A NEW ONE ISSUING GUIDELINES TO SCHOOLS. THEY HAVE AND IMPLEMENTED. WHAT I WANT IS A DEFINED CURRICULUM THAT IS AGE-APPROPRIATE, THAT EXPERTS HAVE LOOKED AT, PARENTS ARE CONSULTED. THEY HAVE A CHOICE. THIS IS A LONG ANSWER. YOU WANT GENDER OUT OF IT. I WANT IT RESOLVED TO BE A SINGLE CURRICULUM THAT IS AGE-APPROPRIATE AND THE PARENTS ARE CONSULTED. YOU WANT GENDER OUT. WE HAVE A SEX EDUCATION CURRICULUM. SCHOOLS HAVE TO CONSULT WITH PARENTS. I WAS CONSULTED ON MY CHILDREN WERE TAUGHT. AT HOME, SOME KIDS AREN'T LEARNING ABOUT THE STUFF, AND THEY DESERVE TO HAVE THE FAX. MOVING ON. A QUICK QUESTION. YOUNG MEMBERS OF OUR RAINBOW COMMUNITY ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO ATTEMPT SUICIDE. WHAT IS ONE THING YOU WOULD DO TO MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR THEM / HAVE A DEDICATED MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER. GENDER DIVERSITY ISN'T JUST A MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE. RESPECTING PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE ALL NEW ZEALANDERS TO DO. FULLY AGREE. GENDER DIVERSITY, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? I'M GOING TO MAKE SURE AS A SOCIETY, WE RESPECT PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE. THE REASON WE HAVE MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS ARE RUN GENDER DIVERSE IS BECAUSE OF JUDGEMENT BASED ON SOCIETY. POLITICIANS HAVE A ROLE, A LEADERSHIP ROLE TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT TREATED THAT WAY. WE HAVE BEEN RAVAGED BY STORMS THIS YEAR, SO WE ARE TALKING RESILIENCE, CLIMATE CHANGE AND TRANSPORT. (APPLAUSE) THIS IS THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. WE WILL START WITH CLIMATE CHANGE. WHAT KIND OF CLIMATE LEADER DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS? A VERY PROGRESSIVE ONE. CLIMATE CHANGE IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES HUMANITY FACES. WE HAVE TO GET EMISSIONS DOWN, BECAUSE THAT IS THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTOR TO CLIMATE CHANGE. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON THAT. WE HAVE HAD EMISSIONS GOING DOWN. THE NATIONAL PARTY WANTS TO REVERSE EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN DONE. HE WANTS TO BE PROGRESSIVE. IT IS CRITICAL THAT I AM ALSO A LEADER THAT IS MARCHING OUR EMISSIONS PROFILE DOWN. HOW WE NEED TO MAKE SURE BOTH GOVERNMENTS A DELIVER EMISSIONS REDUCTIONS. WE WE MAKE SURE WE HAVE A FUNCTIONING ETS, WHICH YOU HAVE STUFFED UP. PETROL PRICES GOING UP. WHAT CAN GOVERNMENTS UNIQUELY DO? THEY CAN MAKE SURE WE INVEST IN EV CHARGING NETWORKS, DOUBLE RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY. WHAT KIND OF CLIMATE LEADER WILL YOU BE WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING REALLY TOUGH DECISIONS? LIKE THIS ONE ABOUT FLOODING. ARE YOU PREPARED TO TELL ENTIRE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY NEED TO MOVE IF THAT IS THE BEST THING TO DO? YES. YES, WE DO HAVE TO DO THAT. WE NEED A FRAMEWORK TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS. IT SHOULD BE BIPARTISAN. IT WILL BE OVER MULTIPLE GENERATIONS. CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, LOCAL GOVERNMENT. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING, AND YOU HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING WE HAVE BEEN MAKING DECISIONS FAST ENOUGH. IF YOU WANT A ROBUST FRAMEWORK THAT IS FAIR, THAT TAKES TIME. BOTH OF YOU COULD COMMIT TO A BIPARTISAN FRAMEWORK ON MOVING IMMUNITIES IN FLOOD ZONES. I AM VERY HAPPY TO DO THAT. MOVING ON TO SLAH. MOVING ON TO SLASH. I WANT TO START WITH A MORAL QUESTION. IS IT'S THE RESPONSIBILITY OF FORESTRY COMPANIES? THEY HAVE LOST THEIR SOCIAL LICENSE TO OPERATE, AND THE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB. IN THE AUDIENCE BEHIND ME ARE MIKE AND BRIDGET PARKER. THEIR FARM IN TOLAGA BAY IS COVERED SLASH IN AND SILT. THEY WANT TO KNOW IF EITHER OF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO SHUT DOWN FORESTS THAT ARE BAD NEIGHBOURS AND LET SLASH ON TO FARMS LIKE THEIRS. IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS SHUTTING THEM DOWN, BECAUSE PINE TREES CAN BE JUST AS BIG A DANGER IF YOU DON'T CUT THEM DOWN. WE NEED TO CUT THEM DOWN RESPONSIBLY, THAT FORESTRY COMPANIES CLEAN UP THE MESS. I WANT TO SEE FORESTRY COMPANIES HAVING A PLAN TO HARVEST TREES, AND THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR DOING IT PROPERLY. IF NOT, WE HAVE MORE SERIOUS, HARSHER PENALTIES. NEITHER OF YOU ARE PREPARED TO DO WHAT BRIDGET AND MIKE HAVE ASKED, SHUT DOWN THESE COMPANIES? ABSOLUTELY, IF THEY DON'T DELIVER ON THEIR PLAN, THEIR HARVESTING PLAN, AND DEAL WITH THE IMPACT OF SLASH, THERE SHOULD BE SERIOUS PENALTIES. THAT COULD INCLUDE SHUTTING THEM DOWN. EITHER SAY YOU WILL DO IT OR MOVE ON. INDIVIDUAL HARVESTERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, BUT NOT HARVESTING THE TREES ISN'T AN OPTION, BECAUSE THE TREES GET DANGEROUS THE LONGER YOU LEAVE THEM. LET'S TALK ABOUT DISCOUNTS ON EV'S AND SOLAR PANELS. IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOUR? I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS RECOGNISE WE HAVE ABUNDANT SOURCES OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY. WE WANT TO MAKE THE TRANSITION TO RENEWABLE POWER. DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF RENEWABLE ELECTRICITY. A LOT OF COMPANIES WANT TO DO THAT, MAKE THOSE INVESTMENT. BY BRINGING BACK OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION. THEY ARE NOT MAKING THOSE INVESTMENTS AT THE MOMENT. AND HAS BEEN TAKING EIGHT YEARS TO CONSENT A WINDFARM. IT SHOULD BE ONE YEAR. ABSOLUTELY, WE HAVE ONE OF THE FASTEST UPTAKES OF HYBRID AND ELECTRIC VEHICLES IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE OF THE CLEAN CAR DISCOUNT. CHRISTOPHER WANTS TO TAKE THAT AWAY, INCREASE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS. WE HAVE TO ACCELERATE THE TRANSITION TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES. THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE CHARGES, BUT TO MAKE IT MORE EXPENSIVE TO BUY CARS. HOW MANY VEHICLES WILL BE 100% EV'S SOON. EV'S WILL WIN, BECAUSE CUSTOMERS WILL CHOOSE THEM. THEY WILL GET CHEAPER. AT THE MOMENT, WE HAVE ONE PUBLIC CHARGER FOR EVERY 95 EV'S. RANGE ANXIETY IS THE NEXT BARRIER. WHAT ABOUT INCENTIVES FOR COMPANIES TO CUT EMISSIONS, LIKE FONT TERRY GETTING $90 MILLION TO CUT EMISSIONS, EVEN THOUGH IT MADE A $1.6B PROFIT? IF WE CAN PAY COMPANIES TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, OR WE CAN PAY A COMPANY OVERSEAS, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, WE HAVE TO CUT EMISSIONS. THESE ARE GOOD INVESTMENTS, THAT ARE BRINGING EMISSIONS DOWN. I HAVE BEEN A CEO OF A GLOBAL COMPANY AND ALSO A NEW ZEALAND COMPANY. CEOS SHOULD BE DOING THIS THEMSELVES. BUT THEY WON'T. WHY WOULD YOU PAY $140 MILLION TO AN AUSTRALIAN STEEL COMPANY? BECAUSE IT CUTS 1% OF OUR EMISSIONS. THEY CAN DO THAT THEMSELVES. BUT THEY WON'T. THE POLLUTER PAYS. THIS IS IMPORTANT. IN ORDER TO REDUCE EMISSIONS BY THE EQUIVALENT OF NEW ZEALAND STEEL DEAL, PETROL GOES UP BY $0.40 A LITRE. YOU ARE GIVING CORPORATE WELFARE TO MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS. THEY SHOULD BE DOING IT THEMSELVES. DO NOT GIVE TAXPAYERS MONEY TO COMPANIES. SPEED LIMITS. I AM TRYING TO LOWER YOURS. GOOD LUCK. SPEED LIMITS HAVE BEEN LOWERED IN RECENT YEARS. YOU HAVE SAID YOU WILL RAISE THEM AGAIN. ISN'T GOING FASTER JUST GOING TO COST LIES? IT DEPENDS ON THE ROADS. TRANSMISSION GULLY IS SAFE. THE HIGHEST LIMIT THEIR IS PROBABLY SAFE. SOME OF OUR MOST DANGEROUS ROADS, THERE IS A CASE FOR A LOWER LIMIT. WHAT WE NEED TO DO AS A COUPLE OF THINGS. MAKE SURE ROADS ARE BUILT WELL. IS IT GOING TO COST LIES? THE WAIKATO EXPRESSWAY, A GOOD QUALITY ROAD THAT YOU CAN TRAVEL FASTER ON AND IS SAFER, THAT IS THE AMBITION FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE WILL TALK ABOUT QUALITY ROADS. POTHOLES. THEY AREN'T QUALITY. THEY ARE DANGEROUS. THEY HAVE ANOTHER SIDE EFFECT. THEY MAKE ANGRY DADS ANGRIER. WHICH ONE WILL FIX THEM? SPENDING MORE MONEY FIXING POTHOLES THAN EVER BEFORE IN HISTORY. THERE ARE 54,000 POTHOLES IN THIS COUNTRY. WE WILL SPEND $500 MILLION ON POTHOLE REPAIR FUNDING, BECAUSE THAT IMPROVES PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO GET AROUND. IMAGINE MOVING FREIGHT. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. NONE OF YOUR PLANS ADD UP. YOU WON'T SAY HOW YOU WILL PAY FOR THEM. I WILL SPEND $25 BILLION ON 13 ROADS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE. A QUICK QUESTION ON ROADS AND ROAD CONES. HAVE EITHER OF YOU STOLEN A ROAD CONE? I HAVEN'T STOLEN A ROAD CONE WE ARE THE BEST IN THE WORLD AT LAYING OUT CONES. IT IS NOT A CRIME. MAYBE IT IS. WE DID HAVE ONE IN A STUDENT FLAT I LIVED IN COME OCTOBER 15, THESE TWO WILL BE WHEELING AND DEALING, TRYING TO FORM A GOVERNMENT. WHO WILL THEY WORK WITH, AND WHAT WILL THEY TRADE OFF? WE'RE TALKING COALITIONS AND LEADERSHIP NEXT. THIS IS THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. AND WE'RE ABOUT TO TEST THEIR LEADERSHIP QUALITIES. LET'S START WITH YOUR PRINCIPLES. MY QUESTION IS THIS. DO YOU SOMETIMES HAVE TO DO CHANGE YOUR PERSONAL PRINCIPLES TO SUCCEED IN POLITICS? NO. I WILL COME TO A COUPLE WHERE YOU MIGHT HAVE. CHRISTOPHER LUXTON. A LOT OF WOMEN OUT THERE SAY THEY CAN'T VOTE FOR YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR PERSONAL PRINCIPLE ON ABORTION. DO YOU REGRET SAYING THAT IT IS TANTAMOUNT TO MURDER? I HAVE SAID VERY CLEARLY I WOULD RESIGN OVER ANY CHANGE OVER OUR ABORTION LAWS ACCESS WHEN FUNDING. OUR ABORTION LAWS WERE DISCUSSED IN 2018. THEY ARE SETTLED. I. REPRESENT ALL THE VIEWS OF ALL NEW ZEALANDERS OUR FUNDING AND ACCESS WILL . STAY INTACT HE ASKED WHETHER YOU ASKED. IF YOU REGRET IT ABORTION LAWS CHANGE, I WILL . RESIGN WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS ABOUT PRO-LIFE. THE DEBATE HAPPENED. . THE LAWS ARE SETTLED I REPRESENT ALL NEW ZEALANDERS AND ACT IN THEIR INTEREST. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN YOUR CAUCUS THAT WANT THE LAW CHANGE. YOUR TEAM CELEBRATED THE SUPREME LAW IN THE US TO REVERSE THE ABORTION LAWS. I AM GOING TO MOVE ON. CHRIS ATKINS, YOU SAY YOU VOTED FOR THE LEGALISATION OF CANNABIS IN THE REFERENDUM. I DID. IT IS A LEGAL, AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING CHARGED WITH CANNABIS OFFENCES. AS SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT DONE A SINGLE THING ABOUT THE DECRIMINALISATION OF CANNABIS, HOW CAN YOU STAND BY AND WATCH PEOPLE GET LOCKED UP FOR IT? I RECOGNISE THE DECISION OF THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC. THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC WERE GIVEN THE CHOICE, AND THEY DID NOT VOTE FOR IT. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DECRIMINALISATION AND YOUR PRINCIPLES. I WOULDN'T RULE OUT FURTHER CHANGES. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH THIS WITH BIPARTISAN. DRUGS AND BEING A HEALTH ISSUE. WHICH YOU DO A BIPARTISAN ACT ON THE DECRIMINALISATION OF DRUGS? OUR PARTY IS NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. THERE WILL BE NO AGREEMENT ON THAT. EARLIER IN THE DEBATE, YOU SAID YOU WERE. HE CHANGE THAT. A QUICK QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU. YOU CAN'T EVEN KEEP A CONSISTENT POSITION DURING A DEBATE. YOU SAID YOU THOUGHT DRUG SHOULD BE TREATED AS A HEALTH ISSUE AND A CRIMINAL ISSUE. NOW YOU SAY YOU DON'T. I AM HAPPY WITH THE SETTINGS WE HAVE. THAT IS WHERE WE ARE. A QUESTION TO BOTH OF YOU. WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND ALL NIGHT TALKING ABOUT THIS. WE HAVE BODY TALKED ABOUT IT. A QUESTION ABOUT WINSTON PETERS. IT HAS TO BE YES OR NO. IS HE GOOD OR BAD FOR THIS COUNTRY? THAT. THAT IS A DECISION FOR THE BOATERS OF NEW ZEALAND. I DON'T KNOW HIM. AS HE GOOD OR BAD? , I DON'T KNOW HIM AND I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THEM I DON'T HAVE TO. I DON'T KNOW HIM. I DON'T KNOW HIM WELL. EVERYBODY KNOWS HIM. LET'S MOVE ON. , YOU DON'T KNOW HIM . APPARENTLY WE'RE GOING TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS GUY YOU DON'T KNOW. YOU ARE GOING TO KNOW HIM. . LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW YOU PLAN TO DEAL WITH CHAOS WHAT IS YOUR PLAN TO MANAGE DAVID SEYMOUR AND THE SKY YOU DON'T KNOW, WINSTON PETERS, WORKING TOGETHER? IT IS NOT MY PREFERRED PREFERENCE. WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? MY PLAN IS TO PITCH THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE AND SAY IF YOU WANT STRONG GOVERNMENT PARTY VOTE NATIONAL. TELL THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE HOW YOUR MAKE IT WORK. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND MY POSITION. IT WOULD BE A THREE-RING CIRCUS. YOU HAVE A FIVE RING CIRCUS ON YOUR SIDE IF YOU GET THE GREENS WITH TWO COLEADERS AND YOURSELF. THEY CAN WORK WELL TOGETHER. DAVID SEYMOUR DOESN'T. WE ARE AT A CRITICAL MOMENT IN THIS COUNTRY. EVERYONE KNOWS WE HAVE GONE BACKWARDS. ANSWER THE QUESTION STRAIGHT' DO YOU EVER ANSWER A QUESTION IT IS A DEBATE NOT A SPEECH. YOU HAVE YOUR OWN CHAOS TO DEAL WITH WITH THE GREENS, TE PAATI MAORI AND LABOUR. THEY SAY A WEALTH TAX IS A BOTTOM LINE. ON THE CURRENT NUMBERS, THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE UP FOR NEGOTIATION, A WEALTH TAX. THEY SAID THEY ARE STILL LOOKING AT IT. WOULD YOU GO INTO OPPOSITION OR FORCE ANOTHER ELECTION IF THEY MADE IT? IT WOULD NOT COME TO THAT. WE HAVE WORKED VERY CONSTRUCTIVELY WITH BOTH OF THOSE PARTIES PREVIOUSLY. THE GREEN PARTY HAVE WORKED CONSTRUCTIVELY FOR SIX YEARS. DO YOU WANT TO ABOLISH PRISONS? NO. YOU WON'T HAVE LEVERAGE. ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE SEMIAUTOMATIC GUNS? YOU HAVE 33; THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE LEVERAGE. I DIDN'T KNOW YOU HAD A CRYSTAL BALL. CRYSTAL BALLS. WILL COME IN HANDY. WE'RE GONNA TALK ABOUT OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD AND NATIONAL SECURITY. THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS HAS WARNED, ' CONFLICT COULD OCCUR IN AN INDO PACIFIC BACKYARD.' TO BOTH OF YOU THINK BECAUSE OF THAT WE NEED TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON DEFENCE? WE ARE SPENDING MORE MONEY ON DEFENCE. I WOULD LIKE TO GET TO 2% OF GDP, BUT WE HAVE NUMBER OF OTHER CHALLENGES. THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS HAS SAID THIS IS A CONVERSATION WE NEED TO HAVE ABOUT THIS POTENTIAL CONFLICT. DO WE NEED TO BE READY FOR CONFLICT? . WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO AVOID CONFLICT DO WE NEED TO BE READY? . WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO AVOID CONFLICT WE ALWAYS NEED TO BE AWARE OF WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD. DO WE NEED TO BE READY FOR CONFLICT? WE NEED TO WORK REALLY HARD TO DE-ESCALATE AND MAKE SURE THERE IS PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN OUR REGION. DO WE NEED TO BE READY FOR CONFLICT? WE NEED TO WORK REALLY HARD TO DE-ESCALATE AND MAKE SURE THERE IS PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN OUR REGION. ANOTHER BIPARTISAN HUG IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS A GOOD THING THAT NATIONAL AND LABOUR, WHOEVER IS IN GOVERNMENT HAS A CONSISTENT AND ALIGNED VIEW OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS. YOU BOTH WANT TO RAISE DEFENCE SPENDING. WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO RESTORE COMBAT FORCES TO OUR MILITARY? NO. IT IS ABOUT THE CAPABILITIES WE CAN RING TO ALLIANCE PARTNERS. . THAT IS A CONVERSATION WE NEED TO HAVE WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT, OUR ALLIANCE OUR COUNTRIES WE ARE IN PARTNERSHIP, WITH WHAT IS IT NEW ZEALAND CAN BRING TO THAT? THAT IS A NO. I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GET ONE OR TWO AND CALL OURSELVES A STRIKE FORCE. SHOULD WE HAVE DRONES THAT KILL PEOPLE? KNOW. WE NEED DRONES FOR SURVEILLANCE. WE WILL NEVER GET DRONES TO KILL PEOPLE UNDER YOU? I WOULDN'T IMAGINE SO. MOVING ON TO A NEW ALLIANCE THAT IS FORMING IN RESPONSE TO CHINA'S MILITARY POWER. THE UNITED STATES, UK AND AUSTRALIA HAVE FORMED A NEW NUCLEAR SUBMARINE ALLIANCE. THERE IS A SECOND NON-NUCLEAR LEVEL ALLIANCE, WHICH IS COOPERATING. CHRIS WOULD YOU SIGN UP? THAT IS UNDEFINED. WE NEED TO EXPLORE IT AND UNDERSTAND IF NEW ZEALAND CAN PARTICIPATE. ARE YOU INTERESTED IN JOINING?> IT IS UNDEFINED AND LOOSE AS TO WHAT IT IS OR ISN'T. WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE SCOPE. WHAT ABOUT YOU? WE ALREADY COOPERATE WITH RE- OF THE PARTNERS ON ALL OF THOSE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED. NEW ZEALAND WILL NOT SIGN UP TWO NUCLEAR SUBMARINES. THE SECOND PILLAR, HE SAYS MAYBE. WHAT DO YOU SAY? WE WILL COOPERATE WITH THOSE PARTNERS ON THOSE ISSUES, WHETHER IT IS THAT OF ANOTHER ARRANGEMENT. WE HAVE TO MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE THAT IS A THREAT, TICK-TOCK> I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A SCREEN ADDICTION. IT IS OWNED BY A CHINESE COMPANY, AND IT IS CONCERNS THAT IT IS USED FOR SPYING. INDIA HAS BANDIT AND A US STATE. ARE EITHER OF YOU PREPARED TO BAN TICK-TOCK? I AM ON TICK-TOCK. I DO IT THROUGH A SEPARATE DEVICE. THERE ARE SECURITY PROTOCOLS. DO USE A BURNER PHONE? FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN WHAT I DO ON TICK-TOCK, I AM NOT SURE. NO, I AM NOT. WE ARE ALMOST THERE. AND AFTER THE BREAK, WE'RE GETTING FAST AND LOOSE WITH THESE TWO, IN MY FAVOURITE ROUND ` THE ORIGINAL, THE ONE AND ONLY, PADDY GOWER'S QUICK-FIRE. (APPLAUSE) WELCOME BACK. WE'RE NEARLY AT THE END OF THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. BUT THERE IS ONE MORE GRUELLING ROUND FOR CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON. IT'S QUICK-FIRE TIME! (APPLAUSE) WHAT IS MORE HARMFUL, ALCOHOL OR CANNABIS? QUICKFIRE! ALCOHOL. ALCOHOL. THAT IS THE LEGAL ONE. SHOULD NEW ZEALAND INTRODUCE MENOPAUSE LEAVE? YES. YOU WILL BRING IN MENOPAUSE LEAVE? I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. IF YOU ARE RE-ELECTED, YOU WILL BRING IN MENOPAUSE LEAVE? I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT. BUT I AM INTO LOOKING AT IT. HAVE EITHER OF YOU BEEN THE VICTIM OF A CYBER SCAM? NO. DO YOU THINK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE BANKS SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY WHEN PEOPLE FALL FOR THE SORT OF SCAMS? WE HAVE TO HAVE GOOD RULES AROUND WHAT BANKS SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T BE LIABLE FOR. THAT IS A ROLE FOR BANKS. MAYBE. THERE IS A ROLE FOR THEM TO PLAY. IS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE A THREAT TO HUMANITY? POTENTIALLY, YES. IT HAS GOOD AND BAD PARTS TO IT. IT HAS A HUGE UPSIDE FOR NEW ZEALAND, AS WELL AS ETHICAL ISSUES. WOULD YOU CONSIDER AN AI TAX TO PAY FOR PEOPLE WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS BECAUSE OF IT? WE ARE A LONG WAY FROM WORRYING ABOUT THAT. I AM NOT SURE HOW YOU WOULD DO IT. YOU COULD FIGURE IT OUT. HOW DID YOU CELEBRATE MATARIKI? I HAD AN AWESOME TIME. UNFORTUNATELY, I WAS OUT OF THE COUNTRY FOR MATARIKI. IT WAS STILL ON. IN PREVIOUS YEARS I HAVE ENJOYED FIREWORKS IN WELLINGTON. SHOULD NEW ZEALAND STATE GE FREE OR EMBRACE GENETIC MODIFICATION? IT HAS HUGE HEALTH AND CLIMATE CHANGE BENEFITS. WE SHOULD PROCEED CAREFULLY. WE SHOULDN'T GIVE AWAY OUR BRAND. A LOT OF EXPORTERS RELY ON IT. BUT THERE ARE MORE OPPORTUNITIES. ARE LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS OK? NO. ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE GUIDELINES AROUND ANIMAL WELFARE. DIDN'T WORK LAST TIME. IT'S CRUEL. WITH CONDITIONS. SHOULD WE BAN TOURISTS FROM DRIVING THEMSELVES TO MILFORD SOUND TO HELP PRESERVE IT? NO. WHO WOULD MAKE A BETTER FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER, JUDITH COLLINS OR WINSTON PETERS? I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT. WHICH ONE? IT IS NOT A GREAT ENDORSEMENT OF JUDITH. (APPLAUSE) YOU KNOW SHE IS THE ONE ON YOUR TEAM? WHO WOULD BE A BETTER MINISTER FOR AUCKLAND, CHLOE SWARBRICK OR MICHAEL WOOD? MICHAEL WOOD. WINSTON PETERS HAS TWEETED SAYING HE WISHES HE WAS HERE TONIGHT. HE WANTS TO KNOW IF EITHER OF YOU WOULD HAVE THE COURAGE TO DEBATE HIM? DO YOU WISH HE WAS HERE TONIGHT? WINSTON PETERS WON'T BE PRIME MINISTER UNDER MY GOVERNMENT. THIS IS A DEBATE ABOUT PEOPLE CAN BE PRIME MINISTER. HE IS WILLING TO WORK WITH HIM. I AM NOT. LAST RESORT TO STOP CHRIS GETTING INTO GOVERNMENT. YOU WOULD LET HIM BE PRIME MINISTER AS LAST RESORT? YOU REALLY DECLARE THAT ONE UP. WINSTON PETERS WILL NOT BE PRIME MINISTER UNDER ME. I BET YOU NEVER EXPECTED THAT. SHOULD CHARITIES LIKE THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH HAVE TO PAY TAX? I AM OPEN TO LOOKING AT THAT, BECAUSE THERE ARE QUESTIONS THERE. YES. YOU HAVE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT SIX YEARS, BUT YOU WILL LOOK AT IT NOW? I HAVE BEEN PRIME MINISTER FOR SEVEN MONTHS, BUT I AM OPEN TO THAT. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU CAUGHT A PUBLIC BUS IN A PRIVATE CAPACITY? IT'S QUICKFIRE. WITHIN THE LAST YEAR, BECAUSE I HAVE TAKEN THE KIDS ON THE BUS. GOING FROM WAIHEKE FERRY TERMINAL. I TELL YOU WHAT, I CAUGHT A GREAT BUS TODAY. THE 2026 COMMONWEALTH GAMES HAVE NO HOME, AFTER VICTORIA PULLED OUT. SHOULD WE JUMP IN? NO TOO EXTENSIVE. WHO IS NEW ZEALAND'S GREATEST PRIME MINISTER? THAT IS A TRICKY QUESTION. QUICKFIRE. CHRIS HIPKINS? ARE YOU? (APPLAUSE) YOU KNOW I LIKE YOU, BUT NOT THAT MUCH. MICHAEL JOSEPH SAVAGE. KEITH HOLLIOAKE DID A GOOD JOB. FERAL CATS ARE DESTROYING NATIVE SPECIES. SHOULD THEY BE TREATED LIKE A PEST? YES. FERAL CATS, YES. YOU WILL PUT THEM INTO PREDATOR FREE 2050? GET ON WITH IT. THEY NEED TO GO. SHOULD PEOPLE WITH LEGITIMATE VACCINE INJURIES GET COMPENSATION? NO. THERE IS A SYSTEM FOR MANAGING THAT THROUGH ACC. NOTHING ADDITIONAL TO WHAT IS AVAILABLE. FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE THE VICTIMS OF MEDICAL MISADVENTURE, THERE IS SUPPORT THROUGH ACC. SHOULD THE SECOND CROSSING FOR CAN BE TOLLED? MOST LIKELY, IT WILL NEED TO BE. SHOULD SHAUN JOHNSON BE GIVEN A KNIGHTHOOD? THE WHOLE WARRIORS TEAM DID A BRILLIANT JOB. I WOULD GIVE IAN FOSTER A KNIGHTHOOD IF HE WINS THE WORLD CUP. THE PRIME MINISTER RECOMMENDS PEOPLE FOR KNIGHTHOODS TO THE GOVERNOR GENERAL, AND ULTIMATELY TO THE KING. YOU CAN'T DO THAT PUBLICLY. BUT PRIVATELY? UP THE WAHS? IT IS NOT THE WAY YOU DO IT. WILL THE ALL BLACKS WIN THE WORLD CUP? YES OR NO? NEVER LOST A RUGBY WORLD CUP UNDER A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THIS IS THE END OF THE NIGHT, BUT ONE MORE QUESTION. AN AMNESTY. HAVE YOU TOLD ANY LIES, FIBS, MISTRUTHS OR GIVEN ANY MISINFORMATION THAT YOU WANT TO CLEAR UP? WHERE I HAVE MADE A MISTAKE, I HAVE CLEARED IT UP. WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. WHERE YOU DO IT, YOU FRONT UP. YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ANY INFORMATION, LET ALONE MISINFORMATION. THERE AND THE DEBATE. THAT IS OUR DEBATE TONIGHT. THANK YOU TO OUR LEADERS, THE RED CHRIS AND THE BLUE CHRIS. NEWSHUB POLITICAL EDITOR JENNA LYNCH WILL BE HERE IN JUST A MINUTE WITH AN EXPERT PANEL. THEIR FIRST JOB IS SIMPLE ` TO TELL US WHO WON. WE WILL ALSO HEAR FROM THE LEADERS ON HOW THEY THOUGHT THEY WENT. WE WILL BE BACK IN JUST A MOMENT. WELCOME BACK TO NEWSHUB'S DECISION 2023 LEADERS' DEBATE. WITH ME TONIGHT TO UNPACK IT ALL, POLITICAL COMMENTATORS JOSIE PAGANI AND JANET WILSON AND HOST OF THREE'S 'THE HUI', JULIAN WILCOX. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. THERE IS A LOT TO DISCUSS. WE WILL BE HEARING FROM THE LEADERS SOON ON HOW THEY THOUGHT THEY PERFORMED TONIGHT. BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO IT ALL, LET'S TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT WHAT JUST HAPPENED. I PUT IT TO YOU, YOU ARE HOOKING OUR KIDS UP. WHY DID JOHN KEY INTRODUCE THAT? IT WAS INTRODUCED UNDER JUNKIES GOVERNMENT/ WHY DO THEY DO IT? I WILL ASK YOU. IF IT IS SO BAD. PADDY AS THE MODERATOR. I KNOW YOU ARE KEYED UP. I APPRECIATE. YOU WANT TO FIGHT THAT IS GOOD. HAVE EITHER OF YOU DONE MDMA? NO. NO. IT IS CRIMINAL. WILL EITHER OF YOU LOWER THE AGE OF SCREENING AND SAVE THE LIVES OF KIWIS? I WOULD LIKE TO DO THAT. WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IT ON BREAST CANCER SCREENING FROM 69 TO 74 TO 65+. WE SHOULD DO THE SAME WITH BOWEL CANCER. HERE IS THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE A 15% HIGHER MORTALITY RATE ON CANCER IN AUSTRALIA. WE HAVE TO CLOSE THAT GAP. THE BREAST CANCER SCREENING. DO YOU WANT TO BRING IT DOWN? YES. YOU WILL BRING THAT DOWN? ABSOLUTELY. I GET ANGRY ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE, IT IS TALKING ABOUT MAORI, CRY IF YOU WANT TO, WE DON'T CARE. WE PUSHED IT TOO FAR. WE OTHER PARTY WITH THE CULTURAL MANDATE AND THE COURAGE TO CUT OUT YOUR DISEASE AND BERRY YOU PERSONALLY. YOU WANT TO WORK WITH THEM. I DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH THEM. BUT I WILL MAKE THE CALL IF I STOP YOU GUYS GOING INTO POWER. IS THAT RACIST? YES. IT IS NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION. HE NEVER ANSWERS THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION IS THIS. WILL YOU RESIGN IF YOU DO NOT BRING IN THE FOREIGN CASH? I AM COMMITTED TO BRINGING TAX RELIEF. STILL NO ANSWER. I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU ONE MORE GO. AS HE GOOD OR BAD FOR THIS COUNTRY? THAT. THAT IS A DECISION FOR THE VOTERS OF NEW ZEALAND. I DON'T KNOW HIM. AS HE GOOD OR BAD? I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THEM IF I HAVE TO. AS HE GOOD OR BAD? I DON'T KNOW HIM WELL. EVERYBODY KNOWS. WHERE HAVE THOSE GUYS BEEN ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL? LET'S NOT BEAT AROUND THE BUSH. LET'S GO STRAIGHT TO WHO DO YOU GUYS THINK WAS THE WINNER OF THAT DEBATE? THE DEBATE WAS THE WINNER. THAT WAS THE BEST DEBATE. IT WAS FEISTY. IT WAS FUNNY. IT WAS STEALING. THERE WAS SWAGGER. YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY, DID THE BOTH OF THEM DO WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO? CHRIS ATKINS BEHAVED LIKE AN OPPOSITION LEADER. HE HAD SWAGGER. HE WAS PUNCHING. CHRISTOPHER LUXTON WAS HELD TO ACCOUNT. HE DID WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO. THE ENERGY AND HE FOUGHT. CHRISTOPHER LUXTON DID WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO, WHICH WAS TO BE STATESMANLIKE, SENSIBLE, PONDEROUS. HE LOOKS LIKE A PRIME MINISTER. CHIPPY GOT THE HIT, BUT THEY BOTH DID WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO. I THOUGHT THERE WAS A BIT OF CHRIS LUXTON ANSWER THERE FOR A WHILE. BASED ON A STRONG BEGINNING, CHRIS ATKINS WON THE DEBATE. LUXTON GOT SOME GOOD POINTS AND. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR FROM HIPKINS, THAT STRONG BEGINNING. THAT IS WHAT STOOD HIM IN POSITION TO WIN THE DEBATE. I THINK IT WAS HIPKINS KNIGHT. HE WAS FAST. HE WENT INTO ATTACK MODE VERY QUICKLY AND EARLY, AND RIGHTLY SO. LUXTON HAD STUCK TO A LOT OF HIS OLD LINES THAT WE HAD HEARD A LOT OF TIMES BEFORE, PARTICULARLY AT THE BEGINNING. HE WARMS UP AS HE WENT THROUGH THE EVENING. HE WANT UP WELL, BUT WHEN WE HAVE A PRIME MINISTER ACTING AS THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION, AND WE HAVE THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION ACTING AS PRIME MINISTERIAL. IN THE DEBATE, YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD PADDY TALK ABOUT A DAIRY OWNER FROM WHO WANTED TO KNOW WHAT THE CHRISES WOULD DO TO STOP PEOPLE LIKE HER BEING ROBBED OVER AND OVER AGAIN. LLOYD BURR IS WITH PREETTI RIGHT NOW IN THE AUDIENCE. USE OR BOTH THE LEADERS HEAR YOUR STORY. DID EITHER OF THOSE LEADERS MAKE YOU FEEL SAFER? NOT REALLY. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD BEFORE. THEY BOTH SAID THEY WERE GOING TO PUT UP REHABILITATION PROGRAMS. WE NEED SOMETHING DONE YESTERDAY FOR US. TOMORROW MORNING I HAVE TO OPEN THE SHOP, AND I HAVE FEAR. I LIVE WITH THE FEAR. WE DON'T WANT THAT FOR THE NEXT MONTH, YEAR OR FIVE YEARS; WE NEED IT DONE NOW. WE NEED SOME SOLID AFFIRMATION THEY WILL DO SOMETHING TO PROTECT US. THERE IS ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE CRIMINALS. LUXTON HAS TALKED A BIG GAME ON THIS WITH THE RAM RATES BEING TOUGH ON CRIMINALS. ANY OF THE PLAN, DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL SAFER? NO. WE OTHER PEOPLE WHO THE CRIME IS BEING COMMITTED AGAINST. WE WANT TO HELP, THE PROTECTION, FOR CANNONS, SECURITY GATES, ALARMS. THEY DETER, BUT THEY DO NOT PROTECT US WELL. THEY HAMPER US. THEY ARE A THREAT TO US NOW. IT DOES NOTHING. WE WANT THEM TO HELP US. HOW ARE THEY GOING TO HELP AND PROTECT US? THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I APPRECIATE YOUR STORY. THEIR ANSWERS WERE TERRIBLE. WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU. SHORTLY AMELIA WADE CAUGHT UP WITH HIM AS HE LEFT THE STAGE, AND THIS IS HOW HE RATED HIMSELF. CHRISTOPHER PROMISED THAT HE WOULD RELEASE HIS PHYSICAL PLAN BEFORE PEOPLE STARTED VOTING. IF YOU CAN'T KEEP YOUR PROMISES IN OPPOSITION, WHY WOULD NEW ZEALANDERS BELIEVE YOU WOULD KEEP PROMISES AND GOVERNMENT? CHRISTOPHER HAS MADE A PROMISE THAT HE IS NOT READY TO PAY. THIS NEGATIVITY ISN'T GOOD FOR HIM. I FEEL LIKE I SHOULD GIVE HIM A HUG. IT IS NOT WORKING FOR HIM. YOU DON'T LIKE TO BE CHALLENGED. THE LAST FEW WEEKS, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY NEGATIVE. IT IS NOT YOU. YOU DON'T LIKE BEING CHALLENGED. IF YOU ANSWERED ANY OF THE QUESTIONS, I WOULDN'T NEED TO CHALLENGE YOU SO MUCH. I AM GOING TO HAVE A LOT MORE LEVERAGE ON YOU. WHERE IS YOUR CRYSTAL BALL? I DIDN'T KNOW YOU HAD ONE. AMELIA WADE TALKING TO CHRIS ATKINS. THAT WAS A HIGHLIGHT REEL OF CHRIS HIPKINS BEST MOMENTS IN THE DEBATE. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY CHRIS HIPKINS BEST MOMENT WAS? TALKING ABOUT CRIME, IT WAS WHEN HE TURNED TO LUXTON AND SAID IF YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE THE GANG PATCHES OFF, HOW WILL POLICE IDENTIFY GANG MEMBERS? HE HAD ZINGERS. HE WAS ON HIS GAME. ON THE CRIME ISSUE, IT REVEALS WHAT THE WEAKNESSES FOR LABOUR, WHICH IS THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE CAMPAIGN ON THEIR LEGACY, CONTINUITY OF SIX YEARS OF GOVERNMENT OR CHANGE. ARE THEY SAYING CRIME IS GETTING BETTER UNDER LABOUR, IT IS NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK IT IS, ALL WE WILL DO SOME THING ABOUT IT. THAT WAS THE THEME ALL THE WAY THROUGH. LUXTON, THE GANG PATCH DISCUSSION ALSO REVEALED WHERE HE IS WEAK. PADDY KEPT PUSHING HIM, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE THE PATCHES OFF? YOU CAN'T DO IT. THAT HAS BEEN HIS WEAKNESS ALL THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN. THAT REVEALED WEAKNESSES. LUXTON WAS WEAK ON CRIME. IT IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST, HE WOULD SAY. WE HAD NO MORE, AND I HAVE TO AGREE WITH HIPKINS, WE HAD SLOGANS. LUXTON GOT GRANULAR AND POURED INTO THE ISSUE WHEN IT CAME TO THINGS LIKE EDUCATION AND CLIMATE CHANGE. THINGS YOU WOULDN'T HAVE EXPECTED. HIPKINS ONE THE COST OF LIVING SECTION. HE TOOK IT TO HIM. YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE SLOGANS. PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR YOUR DIRECTION. LOTS OF TIMES TONIGHT, HE GOT ASKED QUESTIONS AND WOULDN'T OR COULDN'T ANSWER. I AM GOING TO KEEP A PROMISE NOW, AND WE'RE GOING TO GO TO AMELIA WADE TALKING TO CHRIS HIPKINS. THAT WAS A GREAT DEBATE. I ENJOYED IT. OUT OF 10? I WILL NOT GIVE MYSELF A RANKING. LAST WEEK I LEARNT. BANGERS? THE WHOLE DEBATE WAS PRETTY GOOD. IT WAS A LIVELY AUDIENCE. IT ADDS A NEW DIMENSION. I ENJOYED IT. RECEIPTS A NEW ZEALAND FIRST? YOU WOULDN'T RATE THAT IN YOUR PERFORMANCE? I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION. YOU CAME WITH EVIDENCE. ABSOLUTELY. ANYTHING YOU WANT TO CLEAR UP THAT YOU MAY HAVE SAID? NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF YET. AND THE DEBRIEF, MAYBE THERE WILL BE SOMETHING. I GAVE THE DEBATE MY BEST SHOT. ANY CLANGERS? NOT BEING ABLE TO SAY ORANGES WOULD BE CHEAPER? OF COURSE THEY WILL BE CHEAPER. INTERESTING NOT WILLING TO GIVE HIMSELF A RATING ON HOW HE DID IN THE DEBATE. DOES ANYONE ELSE WANT TO GIVE THEM A RATING? I'D GIVE HIM 8/10. THAT IS THE BEST I HAVE SEEN HIM. THAT IS ABOUT RIGHT. HE THINKS IT IS OWN MIND HE WON. IT AS A BETTER 8/10 THAT HE GAVE HIMSELF LAST TIME. THE LEADERS WERE ASKED ABOUT BOWEL CANCER SCREENING TONIGHT ` A QUESTION THAT CAME FROM AIMEE-ROSE YATES. BOTH MADE A COMMITMENT TONIGHT. THE QUESTION WAS FROM AMY ROSE. LLOYD IS WITH HER NOW IN THE AUDIENCE. WE HEARD PROMISES FROM BOTH LEADERS. THEY BOTH WANTED TO REDUCE THE AGE. DUE BELIEVE BOTH THOSE LEADERS OR EMPTY CAMPAIGN MRS? TIME WILL TELL. THE THING FOR ME IS IT IS A START. IT IS SOMEWHERE. UNFORTUNATELY, I WAS DIAGNOSED AT 29. THERE ARE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO WILL GET DIAGNOSED AND WILL KEEP DYING. WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT? YOU HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING ON THIS ISSUE FOR A LONG TIME. YOU HAVE HEARD POLITICIANS TALK ABOUT A LOT. DO YOU THINK THEY WILL WALK ABOUT IT? WHEN IT IS ELECTION-YEAR, PROBABLY. THANK YOU. AFTER THE BREAK WE WILL HEAR HOW CHRISTOPHER LUXON THOUGHT HE DID TONIGHT AND ASK OUR YOUNG VOTERS WHO THEY THINK WON THE NIGHT. WELCOME BACK TO THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE ANALYSIS. NO ONE WAS WILLING TO AWARD THE DEBATE TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON. HOW DO YOU RECKON YOU WENT? THAT WAS FUN. IT WAS A REAL FREEWHEELING DEBATE. I ENJOYED IT. PADI BRINGS A DIFFERENT DIMENSION. HOW DO YOU RATE YOURSELF OUT OF 10? ANY BANGERS? I THINK CLEARLY I MADE A MISTAKE, NERVES ON THE BEGINNING, AROUND ECSTASY, BUT CORRECTED THAT IN THE PROCESS. THAT IS A CLANGER. MDMA NOT A CRIME. I GOT THAT WRONG WITH A BIT OF NERVES, BUT FACED UP TO IT. ANYTHING YOU WANT TO CLEAR UP? IT WAS A GREAT DEBATE. HE WOULDN'T GIVE HIMSELF A RATING EITHER. I THINK HE DID WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO. HE DIDN'T STUMBLE. HE CAME ACROSS AS SENSIBLE, STATESMANLIKE, HE HAD TO MAKE SURE THE FEAR TACTIX FROM LABOUR WENT GOING TO RESONATE. HE HAD TO REASSURE PEOPLE HE WAS REASONABLE. TAKE THE ABORTION QUESTION AS AN EXAMPLE. HE WAS CLEAR ABOUT THAT. HE WOULD BE PUSHED ON HIS OWN VIEW. HE IS CLEAR THE LAW WILL NOT CHANGE. HE GOT SOME GOOD QUIPS IN ON EDUCATION. HIPKINS HAS BEEN THE EDUCATION MINISTER FOR 6 YEARS OF A LABOUR GOVERNMENT. THE FIVE HEADED HORSE IS A GOOD QUIP. THAT WOULD STAND UNTIL YOU CONSIDER WINSTON PETERS AND HE HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ACT. I AM SORRY, WHEN HE IS LYING WHEN HE SAYS HE DOESN'T KNOW WINSTON PETERS. EVEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW HIM, YOU DO KNOW HIM, BECAUSE HE IS A PUBLIC FIGURE. THAT WAS A RIDICULOUS COMMENT TO MAKE. HE PROBABLY WANTS NEW ZEALAND FIRST THERE ANYWAY, BECAUSE HE WANTS BALANCED TO ACT. IT WOULD SUIT HIM TO HAVE NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND ACT ON EITHER SIDE. HE WILL NOT SAY THAT, AND HE BACKS THAT OFF SUCCESSFULLY. THEY WEREN'T IN THE DEBATE, BUT THE ACT PARTY HAS STARTED TO SOFTEN ITS MESSAGING, BECAUSE IT WANTS NEW ZEALANDERS NOT TO GET NEW ZEALAND FIRST IN. IF NEW ZEALAND FIRST GETS 4.9%, THE PROBLEM IS THIS. HE HASN'T ANSWERED HOW IT WILL WORK. HE TALKED ABOUT HOW HE WAS A SUCCESSFUL CEO. HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT LEADERSHIP STYLE. HE HAS BEEN OUTPLAYED THIS WEEK WHEN IT COMES TO WINSTON, AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE SOFTENING OF THE POLLING, BOTH ON MONDAY AND TONIGHT. 5000 MORE NURSES. 4500 SHORT AND 1700 DOCTORS. WAIT TIMES HAVE GONE FROM 9% WAITING MORE THAN SIX HOURS OVER MORE THAN 30% WAIT MORE THAN SIX HOURS. AVOIDING PEOPLE ENDING UP IN ED IS ONE WAY WE CAN DEAL WITH IT. THAT IS THE CHALLENGE WE HAVE. ALL THE TIMES HAVE GONE BACKWARDS. IF YOU GOT A CANCER DIAGNOSIS TODAY, IT TAKES FOR MONTHS TO GET A SPECIALIST APPOINTMENT, THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BEEN LIFE-AND-DEATH. TARGETS MATTER BECAUSE THEY SAVE LIVES. I AM NOT TOLERATING AS WE TRY TO BUILD A SMALL ADVANCED COUNTRY AND EDUCATION SYSTEM WITH 40% OF KIDS DON'T SHOW UP REGULARLY. THAT NUMBER IS NOT TRUE. YOU COULD START WITH USING FACTS. HALF SHOP AT HIGH SCHOOL NOT READY TO GO. HALF OF 15-YEAR-OLDS FAIL WRITING TESTS. WE NEED MORE ASPIRATION AND AMBITION TO TEACH THE BASICS. WE'LL GET BACK TO LLOYD BURR IN THE AUDIENCE, WITH BRIDGET AND MIKE PARKER FROM TOLAGA BAY. I KNOW CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS BEEN TO YOUR FARM. AND KIRITAPU ALLAN AS WELL. PUTTING THOSE ASIDE, THE ANSWERS TONIGHT, A LOT OF TALK, WILL EITHER OF THEM WALK THE WALK? CHRIS HIPKINS DIDN'T. A BIT DISAPPOINTING. OUR RIVERS ARE STILL FULL OF LOGS. WE HAVE BEEN THE FORGOTTEN PEOPLE. NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. IT HAS COME TO A STANDSTILL. CHRISTOPHER LUXON, HE IS TALKING STRONGER ABOUT STOPPING THE FORESTRY FROM HARVESTING UNTIL THEY HAVE SORTED THINGS OUT, WHICH IS IMPORTANT. THEY HAVE TO STOP THEM AND SAY, LOOK HERE, GUYS, YOUR DIRTY NEIGHBOURS. BAD STUFF IS HAPPENING. YES, I AGREE WITH MIKE. I THINK CHRIS HIPKINS IS ACTUALLY TOTALLY WRONG IN SAYING IT IS BETTER TO LEAVE THE TREES, THAT THEY HAVE TO BE CUT DOWN. ON OUR SITUATION, WE HAVE OVER 100 HA OF PINE TREES THAT ARE ONLY 10 YEARS OLD THAT HAVE FALLEN DOWN THE HILL AND CAUSED A DAM BIGGER THAN A RUGBY FIELD. THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN BE CUT DOWN, BECAUSE THE HILLS ARE SO BADLY ERODED, THAT YOU CAN'T PUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE TO GET IT. ALL THE PEOPLE ARE UNSAFE BELOW IT. EVERYONE IS FEELING REALLY SLACKED OFF AT THE LABOUR PARTY'S INABILITY TO GET STUCK IN AND HELP US LIKE CYCLONE BOLA. AND THANKS TO BRIDGET, MIKE AND ALL OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS TONIGHT. A FEW MINUTES LEFT. TELL ME WHO HAD THE BIGGEST CLANGER. WHO STUFFED IT UP? I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THEM DID. IT WAS EMBARRASSING FOR LUXON U-TURNS OVER DRUGS. I DON'T THINK THERE WERE ANY CLANGERS. I THINK THEY CAN BOTH FEEL THEY CAME OUT OF IT WELL. THEY WERE BOTH WEAK ON DEFENCE AND FOREIGN POLICY, AND THAT HAS NOT RESONATED. GOD HELP SUGAR AND PHONES IN SCHOOLS. BUT ON DEFENCE, WHETHER WE WILL BE COMBAT READY, THEY WERE WEAK. HIPKINS GOT HIMSELF INTO THE RACE THING BIG-TIME. THE CO-GOVERNANCE THING IS HIGHLY INFLAMMATORY AS A TOPIC. BUT I THINK HE TOOK IT A STEP TOO FAR. I WOULDN'T CALL IT A CLANGER, BUT I THOUGHT HE WENT OVER THE MARK. WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, RACE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE IN THIS CAMPAIGN. THAT IS NOT TO SAY I AM MAKING A COMMENT ON THE QUESTION HE WAS ASKED ABOUT WHETHER NEW ZEALAND IS A RACIST COUNTRY. ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, JOINING SOME OF THESE MPS, THEY ARE GETTING IT ON THEIR FACES FROM PEOPLE AND COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY MPS OF AN ETHNIC ORIGIN OR MAORI. THAT IS A FACT. WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS CAMPAIGN. I AGREE WITH YOU HE MIGHT HAVE TAKEN IT A STEP TOO FAR, BUT THAT IS ONE THING HE HAS BEEN STRONG ON. IT IS ONE THING CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS BEEN WEAK ON. DID ANY OF THE MAKE A CLANGER THAT WILL IMPACT ON THE ELECTION? I DON'T THINK SO. WHAT I THINK WE GOT WAS A DEBATE THAT ALLOWED THEM, AN OLD QUOTE THAT BREVITY IS THE SOUL OF WIT. BOTH GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT. BREVITY IS THE SOUL OF WIT, JULIAN. THAT REALLY IS IT FOR THE NEWSHUB LEADERS' DEBATE. A MASSIVE THANK TO OUR PANEL TONIGHT ` AND THANKS TOO, OF COURSE, TO CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND TO OUR AUDIENCE HERE AT THE Q THEATRE TONIGHT. NOW IT'S UP TO YOU TO MAKE YOUR DECISION ON WHO YOU WILL VOTE FOR. ELECTION DAY IS JUST TWO AND HALF WEEKS AWAY ` OCTOBER 14. SAM HAYES, RYAN BRIDGE, PADDY AND I WILL BE WITH YOU FROM 7pm ON ELECTION NIGHT, AS THE RESULTS START ROLLING IN. NEWSHUB LATE WILL BE ALONG SHORTLY. I'M JENNA LYNCH. PO MARIE. CAPTIONS BY JAMES BROWN AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023