NAU MAI HAERE MAI. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. ATAMARIE E HOA MA. NAU MAI KI NEWSHUB NATION. COMING UP ` WINSTON PETERS BURST BACK INTO THE POLITICAL FRAY THIS WEEK IN A TYPICALLY DRAMATIC WAY. HE JOINS US LIVE. WHO WILL BE OUR NEXT EDUCATION MINISTER? LABOUR'S JAN TINETTI AND NATIONAL'S ERICA STANFORD HEAD TO HEAD IN OUR EDUCATION DEBATE. AND NATIONAL'S POLICE SPOKESPERSON MARK MITCHELL IS ALSO IN THE STUDIO TALKING CRIME. CAPTIONS BY SAM BAKER AND KATE HARRIS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 WELL, IT'S BEEN A HELL OF A WEEK FOR WINSTON PETERS, WHO WAS CATAPULTED FROM THE COUNTRY'S TOWN HALLS AND RSAs INTO PRIME TIME AFTER HE WAS RULED IN, ALBEIT RELUCTANTLY, AS A POTENTIAL COALITION PARTNER BY CHRISTOPHER LUXON. THE MAN OF THE MOMENT JOINS US NOW IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING, MR PETERS. GOOD MORNING. DAVID SEYMOUR MUST BE SCREAMING INTO HIS PILLOW SOMEWHERE IN EPSOM BECAUSE CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAYS YOU ARE IN, HE WILL WORK WITH YOU, EVEN THOUGH APPARENTLY HE DOESN'T KNOW YOU. THAT WAS WEIRD, WASN'T IT? (LAUGHS) WELL, I DON'T MIND THESE INSULTS. IF IT WAS SAID BY SOMEONE HEROICALLY FAMOUS, THEY'D TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. BUT YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER WHAT THAT PHRASE WAS ABOUT. YOU TURN THE OTHER CHEEK TO MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN. WOULD YOU KNOW HIM? WHO'S THAT? (LAUGHS) CHRISTOPHER LUXON. WELL, HOW CAN I KNOW SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW ME? 'COURSE I DO, AND YOU ALL KNOW IT, AND IT'S SAD WE'VE JUST WASTED THE FIRST MINUTE OF THIS CONVERSATION. WELL, I WANT TO SAY THAT THIS SEEMS LIKE A SURE THING NOW, DOESN'T IT? BECAUSE EVEN IF NATIONAL AND ACT CAN GET TO 61 SEATS... AND THEY CAN'T AND WON'T. WELL, RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE AT THE 60 OR THE, SORT OF, 61. BUT THEY WILL NEED AN INSURANCE POLICY BECAUSE PARLIAMENTARY TERMS CAN BE UNPREDICTABLE. THEY MAY LOSE SOMEBODY. YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH PEOPLE LEAVING PARTIES, BUT THE PREMI` SO IT LOOKS LIKE CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS DECIDED HE NEEDS AN INSURANCE POLICY ` A SORT OF PETERS PREMIUM. AND I'M WONDERING, WHAT'S IT GONNA COST HIM? WHAT IS YOUR TOP PRIORITY? LOOK, I DON'T THINK THE QUESTION MIRRORS THE FACT THAT THERE'S DRAMATIC CHANGE OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC. THEY ARE CHANGING EVERY DAY AND WITH GREAT SPEED NOW. A LOT OF THE SO-CALLED FORECASTS OF THE POLLS ARE REALLY WRONG BECAUSE THE POLLS ARE WAY BEHIND CHANGING EVENTS. YOU CAN TELL` WE'VE GOT THE HALLS PACKED TO THE GUNWALES. NOW PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY WANT A CHANGE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT NATIONAL AND ACT HAVE HIT THE CEILING AND SO HAS THE LABOUR PARTY. THINGS ARE IN BIG TROUBLE FOR THEM, AND THAT THEY WILL BRING US HOME, BUT THEY WANT TO KNOW ` ARE WE GONNA HAVE A FAR, FAR BETTER GOVERNMENT THAN THE ONE WE HAD? YES, THEY DO WANT TO KNOW THAT. AND I SUPPOSE YOUR SUPPORTERS WILL WANT TO KNOW IF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING ON OUT THERE, LIKE A COVID ROYAL COMMISSION, THE SALMON FARM, DARGAVILLE AERODROME, FUNDING RESIDENTIAL CARE FOR THE AGED ` THAT SEEMS LIKE AN EXPENSIVE ONE, TO BE FRANK ` BUT ARE THESE THE THINGS THAT WILL BE YOUR TOP PRIORITIES? WELL, LOOK, YOU CAN'T HAVE 63,000 PEOPLE OUT THERE IN THE AGED CARE INDUSTRY WORKING HARD UP AGAINST IT, 25 YEARS IN THE JOB AND ON THE MINIMUM WAGE. THIS IS TRAGIC. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR PRIORITIES FIRST. THE NATIONAL PARTY JUST STOLE IT THE OTHER DAY ` THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING A MINI BUDGET. WE ANNOUNCED THAT A MONTH AGO ` THE NEED FOR A MINI BUDGET BEFORE CHRISTMAS. AND THEY'RE GONNA ANNOUNCE IT YESTERDAY AS THOUGH IT'S THEIRS. IT'S NOT THEIRS ` IT'S IMITATION. BUT MY REAL POINT IS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THINGS AND GET THE BASICS RIGHT FIRST. BECAUSE` I HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM THE HAWKE'S BAY. THERE'S ABOUT 150, 200 MILLION ALONE ON THIS CYCLONE GABRIELLE CATASTROPHE THERE THAT'S NOT BEING ATTENDED TO. MONEY RUNS OUT ON 1 OCTOBER. YES, WELL, THERE ARE PLENTY OF PLACES, NOT JUST THE MINI BUDGET, WHERE YOUR PARTIES DO COALESCE ` NATIONAL AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST, I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE ` BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS REINTRODUCTION OF FOREIGN BUYERS INTO THE HOUSING MARKET? LOOK, I CAN'T FIND AN ECONOMIST THAT CAN MAKE THEIR FIGURES WORK. AND EVERY ECONOMIST ` AND I AGREE AS WELL, AND I SAID SO AT THE TIME ` THERE'S ABOUT 500 MILLION PER YEAR SHORT OR 2.1 BILLION OVER FOUR YEARS. YOU KNOW, I DID RUN THE ECONOMY ONCE AS A FORMER TREASURER. I'VE GOT SOME IDEA HOW TO RUN THINGS, BUT MY POINT WAS NO ECONOMIST CAN FIND HOW IT WORKS EITHER, AND I NOTICED YESTERDAY, NATIONAL HAS DROPPED IT OUT FROM ITS CALCULATIONS. SO WHAT HAPPENS THEN? BECAUSE THEY ARE RELYING ON THIS MONEY TO DELIVER TAX CUTS, THEIR CENTRAL CAMPAIGN PROMISE. AND YOU SAY THE NUMBERS DON'T ADD UP. MANY ECONOMISTS ARE QUESTIONING THEM. SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GET INTO THE NEGOTIATING ROOM ON THIS FOREIGN BUYERS TAX? THIS IS THE MOST UNREAL ELECTION. WE HAVE GOT PEOPLE MAKING PROMISES DAY AFTER DAY OF WHAT THEY'RE GONNA DO, AND THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE MONEY FOR IT. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S A FALSE PROMISE? IT'S GOT TO BE A FALSE PROMISE BECAUSE` IT IS SO CRITICAL. WE ARE AT 0.9% GROWTH. THAT'S UNDER 1%. IN THE NEXT YEAR, IMF PREDICTS US TO BE 159 IN THE WORLD OF 160 COUNTRIES THAT THEY LOOKED AT. YES. NOW, THAT MEANS THESE PROMISES ` THROWING MONEY ROUND LIKE AN EIGHT-ARMED OCTOPUS ` ARE IRRESPONSIBLE AND EXTREME, AND THEY'LL NEED EXPERIENCE, AND THEY'LL NEED COMMON SENSE TO STOP IT. SO IS CHRISTOPHER LUXON THE EIGHT-ARMED OCTOPUS? WELL, I'M NOT GONNA POINT MY FINGERS AT ANYBODY` WHAT ABOUT A TENTACLE? WILL YOU POINT A TENTACLE? (LAUGHS) I'M SEEING THESE PEOPLE MAKING COMMENTS, AND I'VE TALKED TO SERIOUS ECONOMISTS, REALLY SERIOUS ECONOMISTS, AND THEY SAY, 'WINSTON, I DON'T KNOW WHAT 'ON EARTH THEY THINK IS HAPPENING, BECAUSE WE AIN'T GOT THE MONEY.' SO IT'S UNAFFORDABLE. WILL YOU DRAW THE LINE THROUGH FOREIGN BUYERS TAX? I AM NOT NEGOTIATING WITH ANYBODY HERE. WHAT I SAID TO MR LUXON AND NICOLA WILLIS IS, 'COME ON. SHOW ME THE SPREADSHEET THAT THIS STACKS UP. 'I AM OPEN-MINDED. I'LL LOOK AT IT.' 'I'LL RESERVE MY DECISION UNTIL I'VE SEEN HOW IT STACKS UP. 'BUT PLEASE SHOW US NOW.' WELL, THIS WEEK HAS ALSO BEEN DOMINATED BY THE IDEA THAT THIS COALITION BETWEEN NATIONAL, ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST WILL BE CHAOS. WHY CAN'T ANYBODY HOSE THAT DOWN? NO, BECAUSE YOU GUYS STARTED IT. WELL, I THINK YOU GUYS STARTED IT. NO, YOU GUYS STARTED IT. YOU CARRY ON AS THOUGH` LOOK, THE ALL BLACKS ARE PLAYING RIGHT NOW. THEY'RE THE COMBINATION OF ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS GOING HEAD TO HEAD AND SCRAPPING EVERY DARN MONTH` SO YOU'RE THE ALL BLACKS? THIS IS AN ALL BLACKS TEAM NOW WHEN IT COMES TO BE A GOVERNMENT, AND DON'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT? SO, NEW ZEALAND FIRST, NATIONAL AND ACT ARE THE ALL BLACKS? THAT'S HOW YOU'RE DESCRIBING IT THIS MORNING. NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE PRINCIPLE OF IT. NOW WE'VE GOT A SERIOUS CRISIS, WE'VE GOT TO PUT OUR DIFFERENCES AND EGOS ASIDE AND START ACTING LIKE ADULTS. IT DEMANDS THAT. DO YOU THINK THAT DAVID SEYMOUR CAN PUT HIS GRIEVANCES ASIDE? WHAT DID YOU DO TO HIM? THIS IS PERSONAL. IT'S VISCERAL. WHAT DID YOU DO, WINSTON? HELEN CLARK AND JIM BOLGER, TWO DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTIES' LEADERS, WILL TELL YOU I CAN. CAN HE? THAT'S MY BONA FIDES. CAN HE? THAT'S LATIN FOR GOOD FAITH, OF COURSE. NO, YOU ASK HIM. DON'T ASK ME. YOU ONCE THREATENED TO KNOCK HIM OUT IN A BOXING RING ON FACEBOOK. (LAUGHS) I DID NOT. YOU DID. NO, HE ACCUSED ME OF BEING ON A ZIMMER FRAME, AND I SAID, 'LOOK, IF YOU AND I HAVE A SCRAP, IT WILL LAST 10 SECONDS. 'YOU HIT ME, I HIT YOU, AND THE AMBULANCE WILL BE HITTING 60.' OR 100 WHEN IT COMES TO K'S. I THINK IT WAS 100. I DON'T WANT TO FACT CHECK YOU. WELL, IT WAS K'S, SEE? 60 MPH. YOU THREATENED TO KNOCK THIS PERSON OUT. NO, I JUST SAID THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. IF YOU WANT TO BEHAVE LIKE THAT, THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU WANTED A PHYSICAL CONTEST. NOW, IT'S ONLY A STATEMENT. I THINK IT'S WHAT THEY CALL A THREAT. IT IS NOT A THREAT. LOOK... (LAUGHS) I WAS GONNA SAY SOMETHING THEN, BUT YOU'D CALL... OH, YOU WERE GONNA THREATEN HIM AGAIN? NO, YOU WOULD SAY, 'OH, YOU'RE AN AWFUL MAN TO SAY THAT.' SO I AM NOT GOING TO SAY IT. I'M CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT IT IS NOW. I DON'T WANT TO BE REPORTED TO THE SPCA. (LAUGHS) NOW, DON'T SAY THAT'S AGAINST SEYMOUR. IT'S COMES AS A SURPRISE TO ME AS A BIT OF SOMETHING FUNNY. THE MIND BOGGLES. IN ANY CASE, DAVID SEYMOUR SAYS THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE PARTY AROUND THE CABINET TABLE WITH NATIONAL. WHO'S THAT GONNA BE? LOOK, CAN I JUST TELL YOU THAT YOU'VE INTERVIEWED ALL THE OTHER LEADERS. I AM HERE NOW FOR 12 MINUTES, AND THEY'RE RAPIDLY GOING BY, AND YOU'RE SPENDING ALL YOUR TIME WITH TWO OTHER POLITICAL PARTY LEADERS, WHICH IS NOT WHAT'S FAIR. SURELY NEW ZEALAND FIRST IS ENTITLED TO PUT WHY IT'S ON THIS MISSION? WHY IT'S GONNA BE MAKING SURE THAT CO-GOVERNANCE STOPS. WHY THEY BELIEVE NATIONAL AND ACT CAN'T BE TRUSTED BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH FOR CO-GOVERNANCE IN THEIR DNA. AND I SEE THE NATIONAL PARTY'S CANDIDATES NOW ARGUING FOR IT. THE ONE IN CHRISTCHURCH CENTRAL, THE ONE IN WAIKATO. WE'VE GOT A SERIOUS CRISIS COMING HERE BECAUSE IT IS CORRODING OUR DEMOCRACY, AND WE HAVE TO SAVE THIS COUNTRY'S DEMOCRACY RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. WELL, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT IT UP BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALREADY GIVEN CHRISTOPHER LUXON QUITE A WORKOUT THIS WEEK. THERE ARE ACCUSATIONS BY THE PRIME MINISTER DURING THE LEADERS DEBATE THAT YOU'RE RACE-BAITING AROUND THIS ISSUE OF CO-GOVERNANCE. SO WE HAVE THAT MOMENT. LET'S TAKE A LOOK. PADDY, PADDY, I'VE GOT A QUOTE I WANT TO GIVE YOU. THIS IS A QUOTE FROM LAST WEEK, AND IT'S FROM A NZ FIRST CANDIDATE SPEAKING IN A MEET THE CANDIDATES MEETING. AND I GET A BIT ANGRY ABOUT THIS COS THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE. AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT MAORI. HE SAID, 'CRY IF YOU WANT TO. WE DON'T CARE. 'YOU PUSHED IT TOO FAR. WE ARE THE PARTY WITH THE CULTURAL MANDATE 'AND THE COURAGE TO CUT OUT YOUR DISEASE AND BURY YOU PERMANENTLY.' CHRISTOPHER, YOU'RE WILLING TO WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE. WHY? WELL, I TELL YOU WHY. BECAUSE` LOOK, I TELL YOU WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN. I DON'T WANNA WORK WITH PEOPLE` I DON'T WANNA WORK WITH NZ FIRST, BUT I AM GONNA MAKE THE CALL IF IT MEANS THAT I STOP YOU, TE PATI MAORI, THE GREENS COMING TO POWER` DO YOU THINK THAT'S RACIST? I DO. I DON'T THINK THAT'S ACCEPTABLE AT ALL. SO WHY ARE YOU WILLING TO HAVE THEM SITTING ROUND THE CABINET TABLE? I DON'T THINK THAT'S ACCEPTABLE AT ALL. SO I THINK BOTH OF THEM AGREED THERE THAT THOSE COMMENTS, THEY SAY, ARE RACIST. SADLY, MR LUXON SHOULD HAVE WITHHELD HIS OPINION UNTIL HE KNEW WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. HE DIDN'T WAIT FOR CONTEXT. HE DIDN'T WAIT FOR FACT, AND HE WAS BEING LIED TO. BALLANTYNE THREE WEEKS AGO WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT MAORI. HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE DISEASE, THE VIRUS, OF CO-GOVERNANCE AND HOW IT CORRODES OUR DEMOCRACY. IT'S IN HIS STATEMENT. I CHECKED IT OUT. HOLD ON. I HAVE DEFENDED THAT FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS IN MY CAMPAIGN TO STOP THIS HAPPENING. I GET THAT, BUT HE SAYS, (READS) 'WE ARE THE PARTY 'WITH THE CULTURAL MANDATE AND THE COURAGE TO CUT OUT YOUR DISEASE AND BURY YOU PERMANENTLY.' YEAH, WELL, THE CO-GOVERNANCE IS THE DISEASE. NO, HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT AN ESOTERIC CONCEPT OF CO-GOVERNANCE. HE'S TALKING ABOUT MAORI. EXCUSE ME. I'M TELLING YOU` AND HE SAID THAT IT WAS ABOUT ELITE MAORI THIS WEEK. I'M TELLING YOU AS THE LEADER OF NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND THE PERSON WHO'S TALKED TO BALLANTYNE. BALLANTYNE IS REPEATING MY COMMENTS ALL AROUND NEW ZEALAND THAT'S PACKING THE HALLS THAT IT IS A DISEASE, IT IS A VIRUS, AND WE'RE GONNA DO JUST THAT. BUT WHAT IS A DISEASE AND A VIRUS? IS IT MAORI, OR IS IT CO-GOVERNANCE? LET'S GO BACK TO LUXON'S INEXPERIENCE AND FALLING FOR IT. HE GOT SUCKED IN WITH A LIE. LET'S GO BACK TO THE STATEMENT. YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT BURYING CO-GOVERNANCE THERE. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BURYING ELITE MAORI. NO, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BURYING ELITE MAORI. I'M MAORI, AND I'M PROUD OF MY MAORI BACKGROUND. WE'VE GOT MORE MAORI IN OUR PARTY, BUT WE BELIEVE WE ARE NEW ZEALANDERS FIRST. WE ARE NOT HERE ON AN ETHNIC MISSION. WE'RE ON A MISSION FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. THIS IS CODED, RACIAL LANGUAGE. NO, IT'S NOT. IT'S DESIGNED TO WHIP UP ANGER AND GET VOTES. EVERYBODY CAN SEE THAT. I'M SORRY. WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT, I'M NOT PUTTING UP WITH IGNORANT COMMENTATORS LIKE YOU` (CHUCKLES) ...SAYING THAT I, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVEN'T SPENT MY WHOLE CAREER WORKING FOR MAORI AND OTHER GREAT CAUSES. MR PETERS, ATTACKING ME IS JUST A DEFLECTION. IT'S NOT ADDRESSING THE POINT THAT THIS IS CODED, RACIAL LANGUAGE, AND EVERYBODY CAN SEE IT. SEE, I'M NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO TALK LIKE THAT. IF YOU WANT TO TALK TO ME SERIOUSLY, THEN HOW ABOUT WE HAVE SOME RESPECT AND GIVE ME MY CHANCE TO ANSWER. I'VE GOT A BOOK HERE. I BROUGHT A BOOK ALONG FOR YOU COS I KNOW YOU HAVEN'T READ IT. IT'S THE MOST BRILLIANT MAORI ` APIRANA NGATA'S STORY ABOUT THE TREATY OF WAITANGI. I BELIEVE HIM. I DON'T BELIEVE THESE ELITE MAORI THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DEFEND WHO ARE SELF-APPOINTED AND WHO'D NEVER TALK ABOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON. THE POOR MAORI AT THE BOTTOM IS GETTING NOTHING FROM THEIR CAUSES. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE TREATY IN JUST A SECOND, BUT I ALSO WANT TO BRING UP SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENED THIS WEEK. THE MAORI PARTY SAYS LAST NIGHT THAT THIS POLARISING AND DIVISIVE CAMPAIGN THAT IS BEING RUN ALONG THESE LINES OF RACE HAS RESULTED IN HANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE... SHE HAD A HOME INVASION THIS WEEK. I MEAN, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, ISN'T IT? THIS IS SIMPLY LAZY JOURNALISM. ACTUALLY, IT'S THE MAORI PARTY ` THEY BLAME YOU. CAN I FINISH? YOU'VE ASKED THE QUESTION AND NOW INTERRUPTED ME BEFORE I GOT THE CHANCE TO ANSWER. STOP YOUR LAZY JOURNALISM. THIS IS A LIE. THE MAORI PARTY IS BASED ON RACE. IT'S BASED ON THE MAORI RACE, AND I SAID FROM THE WORD GO ` I WILL NEVER WORK WITH THAT PARTY BECAUSE IT IS BASED ON RACE. LOOK AT THEIR PLATFORM. THEY SAY THAT WE HAVE GOT SPECIAL DNA SUPERIOR TO YOU. DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW RACIAL THEY ARE? I'M TALKING TO YOU ABOUT` WHAT RACISTS THEY ARE? I DO. THERE ARE REAL-WORLD CONSEQUENCES OF THIS POLARISATION AND DIVISION. THAT'S NOT A REAL CONSEQUENCE. YOU JUST MADE IT UP. THAT MUST BE UNACCEPTABLE TO YOU ` A POLITICIAN'S HOME INVASION? LOOK, SORRY, YOU'VE FRIVOLOUSLY MADE THAT UP THAT SOMEHOW US CALLING THEM OUT FOR BEING A BUNCH OF RACISTS AND SUPERIOR PEOPLE WHO SAY WE'VE GOT BETTER DNA THAN EUROPEAN. THAT'S WHAT HE SAID, DIDN'T HE? ALL OF A SUDDEN, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? GIVE ME A BREAK. WELL, I CAN TELL THIS IS GOING TO BE... YOU WILL BE BETTER INFORMED WHEN THIS IS OVER. THIS IS ALL BUBBLING OVER. YOU'LL BE BETTER INFORMED WHEN THIS IS OVER AND SO WILL THE MEDIA, BUT YOU'RE NOT GONNA WIN THIS CAMPAIGN ` THE PEOPLE ARE. I'M CURIOUS ABOUT YOUR COMMENTS, MR PETERS, ABOUT THAT MAORI PEOPLE ARE NOT INDIGENOUS. IS THAT BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE TREATY? NO ` BECAUSE A GENIUS, AN ANTHROPOLOGICAL GENIUS, AND ALSO A BRILLIANT MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, CALLED PETER BUCK. HE WENT ALL THE WAY TO HAWAII AS PART OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER. HE SAID SO. PETER BUCK IS A GENIUS. DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE TREATY? NGATA, POMARE AND BUCK AGREE WITH HIM. AND SO DID CARROLL, THE FIRST MAORI WHO CAME A LONG WAY TO BECOME DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER IN POLITICS. I AM TALKING ABOUT FIVE GENIUSES WHO AGREE WITH ME. I AGREE WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE GENIUSES. I'M NOT TAKING IT FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY TO ME, 'YOU CAN BE INDIGENOUS IN TWO COUNTRIES.' MR PETERS, DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE TREATY? BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT BY UNDERMINING WHETHER OR NOT MAORI ARE INDIGENOUS` NO, YOU DON'T GET AWAY` ...THAT UNDERMINES THE VALIDITY OF THE TREATY? IS THAT THE POINT? WHAT A SHALLOW CONCLUSION. (CHUCKLES) I'M ASKING YOU. YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED ME. OF COURSE I BELIEVE IN THE TREATY OF WAITANGI ` THREE CLAUSES. AND I DON'T WANT IT MANUFACTURED TO BE WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING IT IS AGAINST THE ADVICE OF NGATA, POMARE, BUCK, CARROLL AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE I GOT GREAT CONFIDENCE IN. OK, SO DO YOU WANT A REFERENDUM ON THE PRINCIPLES LIKE DAVID SEYMOUR DOES? HOW CAN YOU HAVE THE REFERENDUM OF THE PRINCIPLES IN 2026 AND DEAL WITH THIS PROBLEM NOW? THAT JUST SHOWS THAT MR SEYMOUR IS ABOUT IMITATION. HOBSON'S PLEDGE WENT TO HIM ON THIS MATTER IN 2017. YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID TO THEM? 'WELL, THERE'S NO VOTES IN THAT.' NOW WHEN HE SAYS NEW ZEALAND FIRST TRYING TO ALERT THE COUNTRY TO THIS, HE'S JUMPED ON BOARD, BUT IT IS PURE IMITATION. AND HIS TEAM, AS YOU KNOW, HAVE GOT THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CO-GOVERNANCE, LIKE THE AUCKLAND SUPER CITY AND EVERYTHING ELSE, WRITTEN LARGE ALL OVER IT. MR PETERS, I HAVE ONE FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU. BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN WATCHING YOUR CAMPAIGN, AND IT'S ABOUT LET'S TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY. BUT I'M WONDERING HOW WE MOVE OUR COUNTRY FORWARD. BECAUSE THAT IS THE POINT OF POLITICS, ISN'T IT, IS TO NAVIGATE CHANGE. I JUST WONDER, JUST FINALLY ` HOW AT 78 YOU ARE THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY. WHAT AN AGEIST, ARROGANT STATEMENT. IT'S SOMETHING THAT VOTERS WANT TO KNOW, MR PETERS. THERE IS A MAN I GOT TO KNOW AND SPEND SOME TIME WITH. HIS NAME IS MAHATHIR. HE BECAME THE PRIME MINISTER FOR THE SECOND TIME AT 93 YEARS OF AGE IN MALAYSIA. HE'S 98 YEARS OF AGE NOW, AND HE STILL ADVISES THE MALAYSIAN GOVERNMENT. WHAT AN ARROGANT, ELITIST STATEMENT. HOW ARE YOU THE FUTURE? LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING ` SOME PEOPLE LOOK AFTER THEIR HEALTH AND SOME PEOPLE KEEP THEMSELVES ALERT ` A WHOLE LOT MORE ALERT THAN SOME YOUNG, ARROGANT PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY A THING LIKE THAT. IF NEW ZEALAND TODAY SAW THE OLDER PEOPLE OVER 65 STOP THEIR VOLUNTEER WORK, OUR SOCIETY WOULD UTTERLY COLLAPSE. I WISH YOU WOULD BE FAR MORE GRATEFUL ABOUT THAT THAN TO MAKE THAT BITTER, ACERBIC STATEMENT. MR PETERS` VERY, VERY SAD THAT YOU DESCENDED TO THAT. BUT YOU'RE NOT GONNA WIN, ARE YOU? I'M GRATEFUL TO HAVE YOU HERE THIS MORNING. THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. THANK YOU. WELL, UP NEXT, MARK MITCHELL ON HOW NATIONAL WILL TACKLE GANGS AND CRIME, AND OUR EDUCATION DEBATE ` JAN TINETTI AND ERICA STANFORD HEAD TO HEAD AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK... AND TO ONE OF OUR MOST ANTICIPATED DEBATES ` EDUCATION. IT IS A CRUCIAL AREA FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE AND FOR OUR COUNTRY. SO HOW DO WE GET IT RIGHT? LABOUR'S JAN TINETTI AND NATIONAL'S ERICA STANFORD JOIN US NOW. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME TO YOU BOTH. GOOD MORNING. THANK YOU. I WANT TO START BY TALKING WITH YOU BOTH ABOUT NON-ATTENDANCE. IT IS ONE OF THE, I SUPPOSE, BIGGEST CHALLENGES IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM IS GETTING KIDS INTO SCHOOL SO THAT THEY CAN LEARN. JAN, YOU HAVE THROWN 160 MILLION AT THIS PROBLEM IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS, AND CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE ` WE HAVE SEEN AN UPLIFT OF AROUND 10% IN THAT REGULAR ATTENDANCE. BUT IT IS ONLY TO 59.5% OF KIDS, AND THAT IS ATTENDING OVER THAT 90%. IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, IS IT? NO, BUT THERE IS GOOD NEWS IS THAT IT IS TURNING AROUND. WE DO KNOW THAT THE DRIVERS THAT ARE BEHIND NON-ATTENDANCE ARE COMPLEX AND VARIED. WE HAVE PUT IN A VERY EVIDENCE-BASED STRATEGIC PLAN THAT HAS BEEN REALLY WELL RECEIVED BY THE SECTOR AS WELL. WE ARE MAKING CERTAIN THAT WE ARE FUNDING THOSE ATTENDANCE OFFICERS, PUTTING THE FUNDING INTO THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE, BRINGING THAT ATTENDANCE SERVICE CLOSER TO SCHOOLS, AND MAKING CERTAIN THAT SCHOOLS HAVE THE RESOURCING THAT THEY NEED. NOW, IT IS GOING TO BE A BIG TURNAROUND, BUT IT IS TURNING AROUND. IS IT GOOD NEWS, ERICA? WELL, WHEN I LOOK BACK AT WHEN WE LEFT OFFICE, THERE WERE ABOUT 6700 KIDS WHO WERE CHRONICALLY TRUANT FOR TWO TERMS OR MORE. BY 2019, THAT NUMBER WAS 40,000. NOW, WHY DID THAT NOT THEN LIGHT A FIRE UNDER CHRIS HIPKINS IN TERMS OF ATTENDANCE? IT'S ONLY BEEN IN THE LAST VERY SHORT WHILE WHERE THE GOVERNMENT HAVE ACTUALLY TRIED TO DO ANYTHING. AND I'LL PUT IT TO YOU THAT THEY PUT $50 MILLION IN DURING COVID FOR AN ATTENDANCE STRATEGY, AND THE MINISTRY'S OWN ADVICE SAID THAT THAT DIDN'T ACTUALLY MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. THEY CAN'T FIND ANY EVIDENCE TO SEE IT MADE ANY DIFFERENCE. THE OTHER THING THAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT, LOOK, TERM ONE DATA LOOKS LIKE IT HAS TURNED AROUND A BIT. I REALLY HOPE THAT IT HAS. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WAS WHEN WE HAD THE FLOODS, THE TEACHER STRIKES... I MEAN, MY DAUGHTER, I REMEMBER, DIDN'T HAVE A FULL WEEK AT SCHOOL. THOSE KIDS WERE ALL MARKED AS BEING PRESENT EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T AT SCHOOL. NORMALLY, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN NOT ATTENDING. THAT'S NOT TRUE. HANG ON A MINUTE. I'M TALKING. THAT'S NOT TRUE. TERM TWO DATA, WHICH WE DON'T HAVE YET ` AND WE WON'T HAVE TILL AFTER THE ELECTION, BY THE WAY ` SHOULD BE OUT BY NOW. THERE'S NO REASON FOR IT NOT TO BE OUT. THE WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT TERM TWO DATA IS LESS THAN 50% AGAIN. NOW, THE QUESTION TO JAN IS, HAVE YOU SEEN THAT DATA, AND WHAT DOES IT SAY FOR TERM TWO? I ABSOLUTELY HAVE NOT SEEN THAT DATA, BECAUSE ` AND YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS A NUMBER OF TIMES, SO LET ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU AGAIN ` TERM TWO IS OUR BIGGER DATA POOL THAT WE COLLECT IN EDUCATION. IT IS THE ONLY DATA POOL THAT SHOWS THE LONGITUDINAL CHANGES IN ATTENDANCE, BUT IT'S ALSO WHERE WE GET OUR ROLL NUMBERS FROM. THAT'S WHY IT TAKES SO LONG` EXCEPT THAT'S ALL COMPLETE RUBBISH. I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO PEOPLE AT THE MINISTRY WHO SAY WHEN THEY LOOK AT TERM TWO DATA NOW, WITH ALL THE OTHER TERMS ` THEY LOOK AT THEM EXACTLY THE SAME; THERE IS NO MORE WORK REQUIRED ` THE FACT IS THAT DATA SHOULD BE OUT. THAT'S NOT TRUE. THE WIDER POINT IN ALL OF THIS IS THAT THEY TOOK TOO LONG. BUT LET'S JUST TAKE A LOOK` IF WE WANT TO TAKE A SOCIAL INVESTMENT APPROACH TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE KIDS ARE NOT BECOMING DISENGAGED` I DO WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE` THIS IS AN AREA I WANTED TO DELVE INTO YOU WITH YOU BOTH. THERE IS A HARD-CORE GROUP OF KIDS OUT THERE ` AROUND 8%, OR 62,000 ` WHICH IS ENOUGH KIDS TO FILL EDEN PARK AND SOME ` THAT ARE CHRONICALLY ABSENT. THEY ARE THERE LESS THAN 70% OF THE TIME AT SCHOOL. SO HOW DO YOU GET TO THEM? I'LL START WITH YOU, ERICA, AND I'LL COME TO YOU, JAN. LOOK, THERE'S TWO PARTS TO THIS. RIGHT? THERE'S THE ` IF YOU LIKE ` THE METAPHOR OF THE AMBULANCE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CLIFF AND THE GATE AT THE TOP OF THE CLIFF. WE HAVE TO USE A SOCIAL INVESTMENT APPROACH IN TERMS OF MAKING SURE THAT OUR KIDS ARE ON TRACK WITH THEIR LEARNING. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WELL, I'LL TELL YOU. THAT IS JUST A SLOGAN. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN, JAN, COS YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING. I DOUBT IT. (LAUGHS) WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR KIDS ARE ON TRACK WITH THEIR LEARNING. BECAUSE THE REASON THAT THEY BECOME DISENGAGED ` THIS IS THE ONE THING WE NEVER TALK ABOUT; WE TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS ` WE NEVER MAKE THE LINK BETWEEN ACHIEVEMENT AND ATTENDANCE. IF HALF OF OUR KIDS ARE NOT AT CURRICULUM ` WHICH THEY'RE NOT ` BY THE END OF YEAR 8 FOR ANYTHING, WHAT IS THE CHANCE THEY'RE GONNA CONTINUE TO TURN UP AT HIGH SCHOOL EVERY DAY? WHEN 41% ARE AT CURRICULUM FOR MATHEMATICS, 20% FOR SCIENCE... SO, THAT'S THE FIRST THING. ERICA, I WANT TO PUSH BACK THERE BECAUSE THAT'S ACTUALLY THE POINT THAT I'M MAKING, IS THAT IF THESE KIDS AREN'T AT SCHOOL, THEN YOU CAN'T ENGAGE THEM, AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO. HOW ARE YOU GONNA GET THEM THERE? MY POINT IS THAT THEY'RE FALLING OUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ENGAGED WITH THEIR LEARNING. THEY'RE NOT FEELING CONFIDENT IN THEIR ABILITIES. THAT'S THE TOP OF THE CLIFF. THAT IS TOO SIMPLISTIC. JAN, GO AHEAD. THAT IS FAR TOO SIMPLISTIC. AS I'VE SAID, THE DRIVERS BEHIND NON-ATTENDANCE ARE COMPLEX AND VARIED. WE HAVE POVERTY THAT LEADS INTO THAT. THAT'S WHY WE'VE GOT TO HAVE A WRAPAROUND TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT ALL OF THOSE FACTORS THAT ARE KEEPING THOSE KIDS AWAY FROM THE SCHOOL ARE BEING ADDRESSED. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE GOT THOSE ATTENDANCE OFFICES WORKING THROUGH THAT DATA` BACKROOM DATA OFFICERS. 82 OF THEM! ...MAKING CERTAIN THEY'RE WORKING WITH THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEIR WHANAU TO DETERMINE WHAT THOSE ISSUES ARE. AND DON'T YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT THE BACK ROOM, BECAUSE IF YOU GET RID OF THOSE PEOPLE IN THE BACK ROOM, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHO ARE GOING TO DO THOSE JOBS? THOSE ARE THE ENGINE ROOM THAT KEEPS THIS COUNTRY GOING IN THIS COUNTRY. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE BACK ROOM ` $170,000 COMMUNICATION ANALYST THAT I SAW ADVERTISED ON THE MINISTRY'S WEBSITE RECENTLY. THAT'S THE PEOPLE I'M TALKING ABOUT. BUT, LOOK, TWO POINTS ` ONE, WE NEVER TALK ABOUT THE LINK BETWEEN ACHIEVEMENT AND ATTENDANCE. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE OUR KIDS ARE ON TRACK WITH THEIR LEARNING. THE SECOND THING IS THAT, YES, WE HAVE CURRENTLY A GROUP OF HARD-CORE KIDS THAT ARE CHRONICALLY TRUANT. AND WE HAVE TO BE BACKING PEOPLE LIKE BLUE LIGHT WHO TAKE OUR CHRONICALLY TRUANT AND OUR UNENROLLED KIDS, WHICH, BY THE WAY, ARE AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH AGAIN, AND BACK THEM. NOW, THESE GUYS` AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE PUT EXTRA MONEY INTO IT. THANK YOU FOR AGREEING WITH US. THEY HAD TO GO ON THE NEWS TO GET IT! THANK YOU FOR AGREEING WITH US, COS THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE GOT IN THE BUDGET WAS THAT EXTRA MONEY. THANK YOU. CHRIS HIPKINS WENT TO BLUE LIGHT AND SAID TO THEM, 'HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU ACTUALLY NEED TO DO A GOOD JOB?' AND THEY SAID, 'THIS MUCH.' AND HE WENT, 'OK.' AND THEN GUESS WHAT. HE GAVE THEM NOTHING. THEY WENT ON THE NEWS ` I THINK IT WAS EVEN TV3, OR MAYBE` I FORGET WHICH CHANNEL ` THEY HAD TO GO ON THE NEWS` THAT WAS A BUDGET ANNOUNCEMENT, THOUGH, ERICA, WASN'T IT? WHEN? YOU'VE HAD SIX YEARS, JAN! SIX YEARS. YOU ARE GETTING VERY IMPASSIONED, AND I WANT TO GET TO ANOTHER IMPORTANT AREA WHICH IS OUTCOMES. I KNOW THAT IS A FAVOURITE OF THE NATIONAL PARTY, ERICA. OF THE 64,000 STUDENTS WHO LEFT SCHOOL LAST YEAR, ONLY HALF HAD NCEA LEVEL 3 OR ABOVE. A QUARTER LEFT WITHOUT NCEA LEVEL 2. THAT IS CONSIDERED THE MINIMUM LEVEL TO DO FURTHER STUDY. 15% DIDN'T REACH NCEA LEVEL 1 AT ALL. AND IT STRIKES ME THAT THESE ARE THE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THEIR SCHOOLING ACTUALLY UNDER BOTH OF YOUR GOVERNMENTS. THEY'VE BEEN FAILED, HAVEN'T THEY? IF YOU LOOK AT MAORI, IT'S 30% LEAVING WITH NO QUALIFICATION. BUT THE POINT HERE IS THAT NATIONAL STANDARDS HASN'T WORKED FOR THOSE KIDS AND NEITHER HAS THE LAST SIX YEARS OF THIS GOVERNMENT. WE KNOW THAT OUTCOMES FOR ALL LEARNERS ARE NOT EQUAL. WE KNOW THAT SOME, IT'S BEEN VERY CHALLENGING FOR THEM, AND ACTUALLY, SIMPLY ` I'M GOING TO PUT IT THERE ` THAT IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO BRING AN EVIDENCE-BASED APPROACH TO THE WORK THAT WE ARE DOING AND MAKE CERTAIN THAT WE ARE LISTENING TO THE EXPERTS ` WHY I HAVE BROUGHT TOGETHER THAT EXPERT GROUP TO DEVELOP THAT CORE TEACHING REQUIREMENT WORK, WHICH IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. THAT WILL CHANGE THIS AROUND. WE ALSO NEED TO MAKE CERTAIN` IT IS TOO LATE FOR THOSE KIDS. ...THE WORK THAT WE ARE DOING AT THE MOMENT AROUND MAKING CERTAIN THAT WE ARE REFRESHING THAT CURRICULUM HAS THOSE KIDS AT THE CENTRE. NOT A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL, WHICH WE KNOW THAT THE OTHER SIDE, NATIONAL, ARE VERY LOOKING TO BRING IN. SIX YEARS, AND WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT A CURRICULUM. NOT LISTENING TO THE EVIDENCE. SIX YEARS OF THESE KIDS WHO HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY, MASSIVELY FAILED. ACTUALLY, IT'S LONGER THAN THAT, ERICA, TO BE FAIR. IT'S WAY LONGER THAN THAT. ALL OF THOSE KIDS WENT THROUGH NATIONAL STANDARDS. BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SOLUTION. WHAT I'M SAYING IS, SIX YEARS, AND WHAT HAVE THEY DONE? THEY GOT RID OF NATIONAL STANDARDS, AND WHAT HAVE THEY DONE IN SIX YEARS? WHAT HAVE THEY DONE? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. JAN IS STILL TALKING ABOUT A CURRICULUM REFRESH. SHE'S STILL TALKING ABOUT A COMMON PRACTICE MODEL. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE COMMON PRACTICE MODEL. IF YOU THINK THAT BY VOTING FOR JAN` I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE` SHH. I'M TALKING. ...COS IT'S ACTUALLY OUR COMMON PRACTICE MODEL. THE COMMON PRACTICE MODEL` WHAT I WANT TO KNOW` NO, LET'S TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S INTERESTING. HOW WILL YOU DRIVE BETTER OUTCOMES? YEAH. WHEN I WON'T BE DOING IS HAVING A COMMON PRACTICE MODEL THAT TALKS ABOUT MATHEMATICS IN TERMS OF SOCIAL JUSTICE AND CRITICAL THEORY. YOU WON'T BE TALKING ABOUT MATHEMATICS? FOR GOODNESS SAKE. YOU WON'T BE TALKING ABOUT THE YOUNG PERSON AT THE CENTRE? YOU WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THE YOUNG PERSON AT THE CENTRE? OH MY GOD, JAN. IT IS WORD SALAD. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT? NO, THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS WORD SALAD. COMMON PRACTICE MODEL BASED ON SOCIAL JUSTICE AND CRITICAL THEORY RATHER THAN TIMES TABLES, FOR GOD'S SAKE. IF YOU WANT THAT IN YOUR LIFE THEN VOTE FOR JAN. IT IS A NIGHTMARE. WE HAVE EVIDENCE. SO THE EXPERTS AND THE EVIDENCE DON'T COUNT? CRITICAL THEORY? GOOD LORD. THE EXPERTS AND THE EVIDENCE` WHICH EVIDENCE? WHICH EXPERTS? GREAT. NO EVIDENCE. HANG ON. WE'VE GOT A COMMON PRACTICE MODEL THAT IS ABOUT TO BE COMPULSORY. (LAUGHS) SHE SAID IT'S GONNA BE COMPULSORY. WE ARE ABOUT TO GO TO THE ELECTION. DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IT IS? NO! IT'S NOT EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET. WE'VE SEEN THE PRE-DOCUMENT, AND IT IS A NIGHTMARE. IT IS ABSOLUTELY` JAN ` RIGHT OF REPLY. IT JUST SHOWS A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A NATIONAL PARTY THAT WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE, WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS, HAS CONFLATED` ...STRUCTURE LITERACY. I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ALL OVER NEW ZEALAND` OH, LET'S TALK ABOUT STRUCTURED LITERACY. LET'S TALK ABOUT STRUCTURED LITERACY COS I DO WANT TO GET THERE. I WILL HAPPILY TALK ABOUT STRUCTURED LITERACY. STRUCTURED LITERACY IS A TRADEMARKED TERM. I FEEL THAT IT HAS BEEN CONFLATED WITH THE SCIENCE OF READING. I HAVE HAD PARENTS OF NEURODIVERSE KIDS THAT HAVE CONTACTED ME IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS SAYING NATIONAL WANT OUR KIDS TO FAIL, BECAUSE STRUCTURED LITERACY HAS FAILED OUR KIDS. BECAUSE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL. THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE OF READING. THE SCIENCE OF READING INCLUDES STRUCTURED LITERACY, BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES OTHER APPROACHES AS WELL. I AM REALLY CONCERNED THAT WE HAVE A WORD SALAD GOING ON HERE. HERE WE GO WITH THE AND-AND APPROACH. THIS IS WHAT ALL THE EXPERTS ARE WORRIED ABOUT. AH, NO. NO, NO, NO. THAT IS WRONG, AND I'M GOING TO CORRECT THAT RIGHT NOW. YOU'RE SAYING 'ALL THE EXPERTS'. THE EXPERTS THAT WE HAVE THAT ARE ACADEMICS AND FROM THE SECTOR ARE VERY, VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT. THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT THERE IS THIS ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL. HANG ON. NOW, DON'T GET ME WRONG, REBECCA. I DO LIKE STRUCTURED LITERACY. YOU LIKE IT. YEAH. BUT IT IS ONE` IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE IT. ...ONE APPROACH THAT SITS WITHIN THE SCIENCE OF READING. IT'S A BIT LIKE` CAN I GIVE AN ANALOGY? IF IT'S A QUICK ONE. A QUICK ONE. IF WE HAD CANCER TREATMENTS, YOU AND I HAD THE SAME CANCER, BUT WE'VE GOT DIFFERENT COMORBIDITIES, WE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT TREATMENTS. IT IS THE SAME HERE. WE DO NOT HAVE A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL. BUT, YES, THE SCIENCE OF READING IS IMPORTANT. THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT NATIONAL HAVE IS THAT` MOVE YOUR POINTY FINGER AWAY FROM ME. ...THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE OF READING. WE ARE FOLLOWING THE SCIENCE OF READING. NO, YOU ARE NOT. I HAVE LET YOU TALK, JAN, AND I HAVEN'T INTERRUPTED YOU. HOW ABOUT YOU JUST LET ME HAVE A GO. ERICA, GO. WE HAVE LOOKED AT ALL OF THE INTERNATIONAL EVIDENCE AROUND THE SCIENCE OF READING, AND WE KNOW THAT A STRUCTURED LITERACY APPROACH, WHICH IS EXPLICIT TEACHING IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY, WITH A SCOPE AND SEQUENCE, IS THE WAY THAT 90% OF OUR KIDS WILL LEARN TO READ. I HAVE BEEN IN SO MANY SCHOOLS ` KAIAPOI NORTH, TAURANGA INTERMEDIATE, TAURANGA PRIMARY SCHOOL. LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT CENTRAL NORMAL SCHOOL WE'RE THEY'VE DONE STRUCTURED LITERACY FOR TWO YEARS AND THEIR MAORI KIDS ARE NOW READING AT THE SAME LEVEL AS EVERY OTHER KID. THE RESULTS ARE INCREDIBLE. IT WORKS. EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL YOU GO INTO SAY WE WILL NEVER GO BACK. JAN WANTS YOU TO THINK THAT WE CAN KEEP DOING THE THREE-CUEING APPROACH ` LOOKING AT THE PICTURE, GUESSING THE WORD` NO, NO, NO, I DON'T. LET'S JUST PUT THAT OUT THERE. I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT AT ALL. I AM WANTING A SCIENCE OF READING APPROACH. WHAT ERICA IS TALKING ABOUT ` AS I SAID, STRUCTURED LITERACY IS ABOUT` HANG ON. I NEED TO MOVE US. I WANT TO STAY ON THIS TOPIC, BUT I WANT TO MOVE ON A LITTLE BIT. STRUCTURED LITERACY IS IN UNDER NATIONAL AND IT IS AN OPTION UNDER LABOUR. WE DON'T KNOW. YES, IT IS, BUT THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF STRUCTURED LITERACY AT THE MOMENT, REBECCA, THAT PEOPLE ARE CALLING STRUCTURED LITERACY WHICH AREN'T. IF IT IS MANDATED LIKE THIS, THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THOSE ELEMENTS WITHIN THEIR CLASSROOM. THAT IS WHAT IS CONCERNING, AND WE WILL HAVE KIDS FAILING. NATIONAL WANT KIDS TO FAIL. SO WHAT'S YOUR COMMON PRACTICE MODEL? WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE OUT ` BEFORE THE ELECTION, MAYBE, IF WE'RE LUCKY? I AM VERY MUCH HOPING THAT IT WILL BE, ERICA. YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND FIND OUT. WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE` IT DOESN'T FILL ME WITH CONFIDENCE. NO, IT DOESN'T, DOES IT? OK I WANT TO MOVE ON, BECAUSE THIS IS ANOTHER HOT BUTTON ISSUE, WHICH IS PERFORMANCE PAY FOR TEACHERS. I READ SOMETHING INTERESTING ACTUALLY FROM JAMES BENTLEY, PRINCIPAL OF ST PETER'S COLLEGE, WHO SAYS IT IS A SAD FACT THAT IN MANY SCHOOLS, THE FIRST XV COACH HAS MORE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR RESULTS THAN THE MATHS OR ENGLISH DEPARTMENT. SO WHY NOT INCENTIVISE GREAT TEACHING? NO, COS IT COMPLETELY UNDERMINES THE WHOLE OF THE PROFESSION. WE NEED TO SUPPORT OUR PROFESSION. WE NEED THEM ALL TO BE GREAT. THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD TO NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IN FACT, IT HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON OUR TEACHING PROFESSION. WE DON'T WANT TO MARGINALISE THEM. IT IS SOMETHING I'M ABSOLUTELY AGAINST. YOU'RE AGAINST IT. ERICA? IT'S NOT IN OUR PLAN. IT IS NOT SOMETHING I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN IT. I AM INTERESTED IN ATTENDANCE AND ACHIEVEMENT AND MAKING SURE WE'RE EQUIPPING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR TEACHERS WITH THE RESOURCES, PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND THE TOOLS THAT THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO TEACH STRUCTURED LITERACY AND A MATHS MASTERY APPROACH. JAN, WE ARE JUST ABOUT OUT OF TIME. I'M GONNA LET YOU SUM UP AS WELL. LOOK, I KNOW THAT WE'VE GOT CHALLENGES WITHIN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, BUT WE TOOK OVER A SYSTEM THAT WAS IN DIRE STRAITS. WE ARE REBUILDING IT, WE ARE SEEING EQUITY THAT IS COMING BACK INTO THE SYSTEM, REALLY STARTING TO SEE THAT ACHIEVEMENT TURNAROUND, PARTICULARLY WITH OUR YOUNGER CHILDREN` WHAT ACHIEVEMENT TURNAROUND? WHAT DATA CAN YOU POINT TO? BETTER START LITERACY, ERICA. YOU SHOULD HAVE A LOOK AT IT SOME TIME. OH, THE STRUCTURED LITERACY APPROACH! THANK YOU VERY MUCH, JAN. GUESS WHAT. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. IT'S NOT STRUCTURED LITERACY. OK. OK. THIS HAS BEEN IMPASSIONED. I THANK YOU BOTH, AND I WISH YOU BOTH THE BEST OF LUCK. WHOEVER ENDS UP WITH EDUCATION, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR OUR KIDS AND FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY. THANK YOU. THANKS, REBECCA. THANK YOU. WELL, THAT WAS A LOT. COMING UP, OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` JODI IHAKA AND TOBY MANHIRE DIVE INTO A BUSY WEEK` ...STRUCTURED LITERACY... OUT THERE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. THEY'RE STILL GOING. PLUS, NATIONAL'S MARK MITCHELL'S HERE FOR HIS PRE-ELECTION INTERVIEW ON CRIME. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. THIS WEEK, NATIONAL PROMISED IT WILL INTRODUCE NEW GANG LAWS WITHIN THE FIRST 100 DAYS IF IT FORMS THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. THE PARTY CLAIMS CRIME IS OUT OF CONTROL, THAT THERE'S A TSUNAMI OF YOUTH CRIME. BUT IS THERE? THE MAN WHO ASPIRES TO BE THE NEXT POLICE MINISTER IS NATIONAL'S MARK MITCHELL. TENA KOE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON. THAT'S GREAT. IT'S GONNA BE HARD TO COMPETE WITH THE, UH` IT WAS VERY IMPASSIONED. I EXPECT THE SAME LEVEL OF PASSION. I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE FIRST THAT BEING A VICTIM OF ANY CRIME IS TRAUMATIC, BUT WE NEED TO EXAMINE YOUR CLAIM THAT CRIME IS OUT OF CONTROL UNDER LABOUR. SO, GIVE ME SOME HARD STATS STRAIGHT UP NOW TO BACK THAT UP. LET'S START FROM THE BEGINNING. YOU HAD THE INCOMING LABOUR GOVERNMENT SIX YEARS AGO. THAT HELD A JUSTICE SUMMIT AND FORGOT TO INVITE VICTIM ADVOCACY GROUPS. SO, I JUST WANT YOU TO LET ME BUILD A PICTURE FOR YOU HERE SO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I AM SAYING THAT IN OUR COUNTRY, CRIME IS OUT OF CONTROL. MOST PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES TODAY GET A SENSE THAT THEY ARE LESS SAFE THAN SIX YEARS AGO. THE START OF THAT WAS THAT THEY HELD THAT JUSTICE SUMMIT, THEY FORGOT TO ASK VICTIM ADVOCACY GROUPS TO COME. WE HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT ABOUT VICTIMS IN THE LAST SIX YEARS. SO, WHAT ARE YOUR STATS? THEN THEY KICKED OFF WITH A POLICY TO REDUCE THE PRISON POPULATION BY 30%. SO, WHAT ARE YOUR STATS? AND, BY THE WAY, REPEAL THE ONLY TOUGH SENTENCING LAW WE HAD ON THE BOOKS. WHICH WAS THE THREE STRIKES LEGISLATION. SO WHAT ARE YOUR STATS? OUR STATS ARE A 33% INCREASE IN VIOLENT CRIME, AN OVER 500% INCREASE IN RAM-RAIDS. RIGHT. A 41% INCREASE IN VICTIMISATIONS. OK. SO LET'S` I AM ONLY GETTING STARTED. OK, ONE MORE. 70% INCREASE IN GANG NUMBERS. WE HAVE THE GANGS RECRUITING QUICKER THEN WE CAN RECRUIT AND TRAIN FRONT-LINE OFFICERS. LET'S GO THROUGH SOME OF THOSE, OK? YOU SAY VIOLENT CRIME'S UP BY 33%. CORRECT. THAT IS THE NUMBER OF VICTIMISATIONS. SO, THAT IS THE REPORTING TO POLICE. IS THAT CORRECT? THAT'S THE REPORTING TO POLICE. THAT'S RIGHT. SO, THE NUMBER OF PROCEEDINGS THROUGH THE COURTS IS DOWN BY 26.5%. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM. IN THIS COUNTRY NOW, THERE ARE NO CHARGES BEING LAID, NO CONSEQUENCES, AND YOU HAVE SEEN IT, AND I'VE SEEN YOUR GRAPH. I DON'T KNOW, CAN THE VIEWERS SEE THAT? WE'RE GONNA GO STRAIGHT TO THAT GRAPH NOW. SHOW THEM THAT GRAPH. I THINK THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THAT, YOU'RE SAYING LABOUR IS SOFT ON CRIME, AND THAT'S THE LAST BIT OF THE GRAPH, BUT LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF FINALISED CHARGES UNDER NATIONAL IN 2008. THAT HAS DROPPED RIGHT OFF. YOU SAY PEOPLE AREN'T CHARGED, BUT WHAT HAPPENED UNDER NATIONAL? I TELL YOU WHAT HAPPENED UNDER NATIONAL ` THE COUNTRY WAS A LOT SAFER PLACE. WAS IT? SO WHEN LABOUR CAME IN` DO YOU NEED ME TO GO THROUGH THE NUMBERS AGAIN? A 33% INCREASE IN VIOLENT CRIME, SIMON. OR A 26.5% DECREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PROCEEDINGS. YOUR OWN CAMERAMAN OUT ON THE STREET SAID HE HAS NEVER SEEN VIOLENCE THIS BAD BEFORE. LET ME GIVE YOU AN INDICATION IF YOU WANT SOME FEEDBACK ON WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THIS COUNTRY. JUDGE DOHERTY, WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE IPCA, WAS IN FRONT OF THE JUSTICE SELECT COMMITTEE ABOUT SIX MONTHS AGO. I SAID TO HIM, 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING 'TO RESPOND AN CHANGE THE WAY YOU ARE HANDLING THESE CASES, 'TO RECOGNISE THE FACT NOW THAT OUT FRONTLINE POLICE OFFICERS 'ARE WORKING IN A FAR MORE DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT, 'THEY ARE OFTEN HAVING TO ACCELERATE`' OK` LET ME FINISH. 'THEY'RE HAVING TO ACCELERATE THROUGH TACTICAL OPTIONS.' DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID TO ME? HE SAID THAT IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS, WE HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE, AND WE HAVE NOTICED THAT NOW POLICE OFFICERS ARE SAYING WHEN THEY GO TO WORK, THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT GETTING THROUGH THEIR SHIFT SAFELY. LET ME FINISH, THIS IS IMPORTANT. THIS IS TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE ON THE FRONT-LINE. THIS IS AN ANECDOTE, RIGHT, YEAH? THEY WANT TO FINISH THEIR` THIS IS FROM THE HEAD OF THE IPCA. HE SAID THEY JUST WANT TO GET THROUGH THEIR SHIFT SAFELY AND GET BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES. DOESN'T EVERYBODY? OK, IF YOU TALK ABOUT` YOU SAY 'DOESN'T EVERYBODY'` YOU SAY 'DOESN'T EVERYBODY' AS THOUGH... I DON'T DISPUTE THAT THEY'VE GOT` I THINK YOU'RE BEING A BIT CAVALIER. NO, I'M NOT. THESE ARE FRONT-LINE POLICE OFFICERS GOING OUT HAVING TO DEAL WITH THIS CRIME EVERY DAY. BUT ALSO, IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE STATISTICS, YOU SAY IT IS OUT OF CONTROL, MORE VICTIMISATIONS, OK, THAT'S THE REPORTS TO POLICE. IT IS OUT OF CONTROL. ABSOLUTELY, IT IS. BUT IS THAT BECAUSE THERE IS MORE REPORTING AS WELL? IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THERE HAS BEEN 10-5 POLICE REPORTING, THERE'S A LOT MORE REPORTING. THERE IS. THE 10-5 POLICE NUMBER. IT MAKES IT EASIER TO REPORT. REPORTED RETAIL CRIME, WHICH IS ANOTHER YOU TALK ABOUT. THERE'S ANOTHER ONLINE RETAIL TOOL CALLED AUROR WHICH ENABLES $500 CRIMES TO BE REPORTED EASILY TO POLICE. THERE IS A LOT MORE REPORTING. AUROR DOES OUTSTANDING WORK. LET'S LOOK AT THE GRAPH QUICKLY, AND FINISH ON THE GRAPH. IT'S VERY GOOD THAT YOU` NO, NO. YOU PUT THE GRAPH UP. IT HAS GONE INTO RED. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE COLOUR RED IS? IT'S FOR ALARM. (LAUGHS) PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALARMED ABOUT THAT. I TELL YOU WHY... THE TREND LINE SHOWS LESS CHARGES` WHAT THAT SHOWS IS THAT EVERYONE IS FEELING... THERE'S NO CHARGES AND THERE'S NO CONSEQUENCES. WELL, IT IS YOUR SLIDE, SO I JUST WANT TO` NO, THAT'S NOT MY SLIDE. THOSE ARE THE STATS AND IT SHOWS THERE WERE LESS CHARGES` I WANT TO CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE WHEN THEY LOOK AT THAT SLIDE, THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WE ARE FACING AS A COMMUNITY. THE LINE GOES DOWN UNDER NATIONAL GREATER THAN UNDER LABOUR. ALL RIGHT, I WANT TO MOVE ON. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT GRAPH ENOUGH. IT HIGHLIGHTS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, IN YOUR POLICY. THERE IS AN UNPRECEDENTED WAVE OF YOUTH OFFENDING. 'UNPRECEDENTED' ` THAT IS A BIG STATEMENT. WHAT IS THE ACTUAL FIGURE FOR THAT? ACTUAL FIGURE? WELL, OF COURSE, THE YOUTH OFFENDING FIGURES ARE WRAPPED UP IN THOSE OVERALL FIGURES THAT WE GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT. LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU SOMETHING ABOUT OPPOSITION. NO, NO, I JUST ASKED YOU ABOUT A YOUTH OFFENDING FIGURE. THE NUMBERS, WE RELY ON THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE US THOSE. AS OPPOSITION, WE HAVE TO PUT IN WRITTEN QUESTIONS. WE HAVE OIA, THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU GUYS HAVE. AND WE RELY ON THEM TO GIVE THE STATISTICS BACK. ALL THE NUMBERS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT NUMBERS. WHAT IS THE FIGURE YOU ARE POINTING TO? THE YOUTH AND THE JUVENILE OFFENDING, THE ACTUAL NUMBERS AROUND THAT, WE HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN THAT BY THE GOVERNMENT. WHY DOES THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE REPORT OUT THIS YEAR SAY OVER THE LAST DECADE, OFFENDING RATES HAVE DECREASED FOR YOUTH BY 63% AND 64%. THAT DOESN'T POINT TO AN UNPRECEDENTED WAVE. THAT GOES BACK TO YOUR GRAPH. WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IS COME IN AND SAID, 'WE'RE GONNA GO FOR ALTERNATIVE ACTIONS.' THEY HAVE TOLD THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, 'WE DO NOT WANT PEOPLE CHARGED.' AND THAT IS THE WHOLE ISSUE THAT WE'VE GOT AROUND.... WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT TERM 'UNPRECEDENTED' ON? SIMON, DO YOU UNDER` WHAT I BASE THE TERM 'UNPRECEDENTED' JUVENILE AND YOUTH CRIME ON IS THE FACT THAT` (SIGHS) LET ME FINISH. WE HAVE HAD AN OVER 500% INCREASE IN RAM-RAIDS. THE MAJORITY OF THOSE OFFENDERS ARE YOUTH AND JUVENILE OFFENDERS. DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS DRIVING THAT? A LOT OF THAT IS THE ADULT GANGS, SETTING THESE YOUNG PEOPLE UP. WE'LL TALK ABOUT GANGS IN JUST A SEC. IT IS NOT JUST RAM-RAIDS BUT AGGRAVATED ROBBERIES AS WELL. I WAS AT THE CEDAR PARK DAIRY IN MANUREWA THREE WEEKS AGO WITH A DAIRY OWNER THAT WAS DEFENDING HIS WIFE, WHO WAS ATTACKED WITH A BASEBALL BAT AND ENDED UP IN AUCKLAND HOSPITAL WITH A BRAIN INJURY. NO ONE TAKES AWAY THE TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE OF THOSE KINDS OF CRIMES, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STATS. IN THE RAM-RAID STATS, NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT HAS SPIKED. 116, AUGUST LAST YEAR. WHAT WAS THE FIGURE AUGUST THIS YEAR? WELL, I AM NOT FALLING INTO YOUR RIDICULOUS TRAP. WHY? IT'S 35. 116 HAS GONE DOWN TO 35. SO LET ME EXPLAIN. IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE STATISTICS, TAKE THEM FROM AUGUST 2017 TO AUGUST 2018, AND LOOK FROM AT THE STATISTICS FROM AUGUST 2022 TO 2023, YOU'LL SEE THERE WAS A 533% INCREASE. AND NOW IT HAS GONE DOWN. SO THIS IS WHAT YOU DO, AND THIS IS WHAT LABOUR DOES, AND THIS IS WHAT GINNY ANDERSON... I DON'T THINK I DO. WELL, YOU ARE. YOU ARE A MOUTHPIECE FOR LABOUR AT THE MOMENT. I'M JUST TESTING YOUR STATEMENTS. LET ME ADDRESS WHAT YOU JUST PUT TO ME. THIS IS WHAT GINNY ANDERSEN HAS BEEN SAYING. THEY TAKE A HIGH POINT IN AUGUST OF LAST YEAR, WHICH WAS 114 RAM-RAIDS, AND THEY TAKE A LOW POINT, AND SAY, 'WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.' THAT IS ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO TRICK THE` RAM-RAIDS THEMSELVES ARE ONLY 0.35% OF ALL CRIME. THE PUBLIC DON'T BUY IT. THEY FEEL IT AND THEY KNOW. THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING. ARE YOU FUELLING THAT? AND THAT IS WHY THE LABOUR PARTY HAS NO CREDIBILITY. THEY HAVE HAD FOUR POLICE MINISTERS... I'M GOING TO MOVE ON TO YOUR POLICY. ...IN 12 MONTHS. GANGS ` WE HAD THE SITUATION IN THE LEADERS DEBATE WHERE CHRISTOPHER LUXON WAS ASKED HOW TO HE WAS GOING TO TAKE PATCHES OF GANGS. YEAH. HOW WOULD YOU DO THAT? WE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR. GANGS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WEAR PATCHES. SO HOW DO YOU STOP THEM? IF THEY COME OUT IN PUBLIC, AND THE POLICE ASKED THEM TO TAKE IT OFF, THEY WILL BE ARRESTED AND THEY'LL HAVE FORCIBLY HAVE THEIR PATCH TAKEN OFF. SO IF YOU HAVE A ROADBLOCK... IF THERE ARE 9000 GANG MEMBERS IN NEW ZEALAND, THERE WILL BE 9000 PATCHES COMING OFF. THEY COULD CHOOSE TO LEAVE THEM AT HOME, IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A PATCH PARTY AT HOME, PUT THEM ON AT HOME IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR OWN HOME, YOU GO FOR IT. BUT IF YOU WEAR THEM IN PUBLIC, THE POLICE HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE THEM. IF YOU HAVE A ROADBLOCK WHERE, SAY, GANGS ARE GOING TO THIS FUNERAL IN OPOTIKI, WHICH HAS BEEN RAISED, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A ROADBLOCK. YOU WILL HAVE POLICE SAYING, 'TAKE YOUR PATCH OFF?' ABSOLUTELY. OK, SO WHAT ABOUT ALL THE` ABSOLUTELY, THEY WILL. WHY ARE YOU GUYS SO SURPRISED? SO YOU WILL HAVE OTHER PEOPLE WAITING AROUND WHILE` YOU HAD CHRIS HIPKINS CRYING INTO HIS PORRIDGE` I'M ASKING YOU HOW YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT. NO, LET ME FINISH. YOU HAD CHRIS HIPKINS CRYING INTO HIS PORRIDGE ON THE LEADERS DEBATE, SAYING, 'WE CAN'T PUT A THOUSAND POLICE INTO OPOTIKI TO DEAL WITH... 'WE'RE JUST GOING TO LET THE GANGS TAKE THE PLACE OVER.' I'VE BEEN TO OPOTIKI; I WENT AND VISITED THERE. I POLICED THERE MYSELF. THEY HAD 600 MONGREL MOB PATCHED` I KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT. ...COME IN TO THE TOWN. SCHOOLS WERE SHUT. THE TOWN WAS BASICALLY UNDER SIEGE. MY EXPECTATION IS, AND THE POLICE WILL UNDER NATIONAL, THEY WILL GO IN THERE AND MAKE SURE THE COMMUNITY FEEL THAT THEY'RE RUNNING THE TOWN. SO HOW DO YOU TAKE THE PATCH OFF? HOW DO YOU STOP THOSE PEOPLE TURNING UP TO` IT WILL MEAN ROADBLOCKS, IT WILL MEAN GUNS BEING TAKEN, IT WILL MEAN NO PATCHES. AND I TELL YOU WHAT, THE POLICE WILL NOT RUN TRAFFIC CONTROL FOR THE GANGS, WHILE LAW-ABIDING MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY ARE HELD UP AT CHECKPOINTS TO ALLOW THEM TO GO TO A TANGI. HOW DETAILED DO YOU WANT POLICE TO BE IN THIS POLICY? YOU REFERENCE WESTERN AUSTRALIA WITH THEIR TOUGH ANTI-GANG LAWS. ABSOLUTELY. THEY MAKE US LOOK LIKE CHOIRBOYS. SO, A BIKIE OVER THERE WAS WEARING A GANG RING, BUT NO OTHER INSIGNIA. HE WAS WEARING A GANG RING IN A PUB, AND THE POLICE SPOTTED HIM WEARING A GANG RING. SO THEY SPOTTED HIM... TAKE IT OFF HIM. ALL RIGHT, SO HE WAS FINED $1700. IS THAT THE LEVEL OF DETAIL... VERY GOOD. ABSOLUTELY. ...THAT YOU WANT THE POLICE TO BE DOING? ABSOLUTELY. I DON'T WANT GANG INSIGNIA. I DON'T WANT GANG PATCHES. GANGS ARE NOTHING BUT NEGATIVE AND BAD FOR OUR COUNTRY. AND BY THE WAY, IT IS DEEPLY INTERGENERATIONAL NOW. SO THE POLICE ARE GONNA SAY, TAKE THAT RING OFF. I DON'T WANT KIDS GROWING UP IN THE GANG ENVIRONMENT. I HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR. BUT HOW DETAILED THE POLICE ARE GONNA BE` SIMON, I HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR, AND CHRIS HAS BEEN CLEAR, AND THE NATIONAL PARTY HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR. LET ME FINISH. OUR CORE BELIEF IS SOCIAL INVESTMENT. THAT IS QUITE SIMPLY GETTING TO PEOPLE MUCH EARLIER` AND STOPPING THEM FROM COMING INTO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM. IF YOU CHOOSE TO BE IN A GANG, LIFE WILL BE MUCH HARDER. IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE, I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO STEP UP BESIDE THEM AND SAY, 'HOW DO WE HELP YOU GET SOME TRAINING, GET INTO A JOB, 'REJOIN SOCIETY, AND RAISE YOUR KIDS IN A POSITIVE WAY?' ONE LAST QUESTION FOR YOU ` WILL YOU COMMIT TO ANDREW COSTER BEING POLICE COMMISSIONER FOR THE REST OF HIS TERM UNTIL MARCH 2025? THAT'S NOT FOR ME TO SAY. I'D BE WAY OUTSTANDING... COS YOU DON'T SUPPORT HIM` I HAVE HAD TWO MEETINGS WITH ANDREW COSTER, AND I'LL RESPECT THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF THOSE MEETINGS, BUT LET ME BE VERY CLEAR ` HE WAS LEFT IN NO DOUBT, AND HE UNDERSTANDS WE ARE NOT ALIGNED IN TERMS OF WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS. I THINK THEY HAVE TAKEN POLICING BY CONSENT, AND LABOUR HAVE APPLIED THEIR OWN MODELLING TO POLICING BY CONSENT. I THINK IT HAS BEEN VERY BAD FOR US AS A COUNTRY. ANDREW COSTER IS GONEBURGER. NO, I'M NOT SAYING THAT. I AM JUST BEING HONEST WITH YOU. YOU ASKED ME THE QUESTION, I SAID IT WOULD IRRESPONSIBLE TO COMMENT. I CAN'T, BUT I HAVE BEEN CLEAR. I DON'T THINK THIS GOVERNMENT OR THE COMMISSIONER HAS TAKEN US DOWN THE RIGHT ROAD. MARK MITCHELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON. NO PROBLEM. E WHAI AKE NEI, OUR POLITICAL PANEL, JODI IHAKA AND TOBY MANHIRE. PLUS, ANOTHER WEEK, ANOTHER TAX SCRAP OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` VETERAN JOURNALIST JODI IHAKA, WHO ONCE WORKED AS A LABOUR PRESS SECRETARY, AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE OF THE SPINOFF, TOBY MANHIRE. TENA KOUTOU. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. WELL, WINSTON LOVES HIS COMMON SENSE. WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF HIM THIS MORNING, JODI? WINSTON PETERS IS DEFINITELY BACK IN THE POLITICAL FRAME. HE ALWAYS HAS TO SAY SOMETHING REALLY CONTROVERSIAL. I HAD TO MAKE SOME QUICK NOTES HERE. 'SHALLOW, IGNORANT, LAZY, AGEIST, AND ARROGANT.' AND HE'S JUST REFERRING TO THE MEDIA. THAT'S YOU GUYS, RIGHT? I'LL TAKE ARROGANT, SURE. BUT HAS THIS WEEK` HAS WHAT LUXON DONE CEMENTED WINSTON'S PATH BACK TO POWER? IT'S AMAZING, ISN'T IT? THINK ABOUT IT IN MANY WAYS, THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TIME IN THE CAMPAIGN. WE HAVE ADVANCED VOTING OPENING IN ABOUT 72 HOURS ON MONDAY, AT THE START OF THAT WEEK, CHRISTOPHER LUXON PUT OUT PRETTY MUCH A PROMOTIONAL VIDEO FOR NEW ZEALAND FIRST ` 'YES, I WILL WORK WITH HIM.' THE STRANGE DANCE THAT HE'S DESCRIBED, 'I DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH HIM, BUT I DON'T NOT WANT TO WORK WITH HIM ENOUGH NOT TO WORK WITH HIM.' (LAUGHS) 'EVEN THOUGH I DON'T KNOW HIM.' 'ALSO, I DON'T KNOW HIM.' 'I DON'T KNOW HIM, BUT I`' 'BUT I DON'T NOT KNOW HIM ENOUGH NOT TO WORK WITH HIM.' IT IS INCREDIBLE. YOU SEE WINSTON` WINSTON IS LOVING IT. HE IS COMING IN HERE, INVOKING THE BIBLE AND THE ALL BLACKS, AND JUST GOING FOR IT. HE IS ON FIRE. HE IS ON FIRE. DID WHAT CHRIS HIPKINS DO IN THE LEADERS' DEBATE IN REFERENCING THAT QUOTE, HAS THAT IGNITED AN UGLIER SIDE OF THE CAMPAIGN THIS WEEK DO YOU THINK, JODI? WE'VE SEEN ONE LABOUR PARTY CANDIDATE SAY THEY HAVE BEEN SLAPPED, AND HANA-RAWHITI MAIPI-CLARKE SAYING HER HOME WAS RAM-RAIDED. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT? OH, IT IS PRETTY SHOCKING. THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY ALLEGATIONS AND STORIES, ANECDOTES THAT WE HAVE HEARD ON THE SIDELINE ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING. WE HAVE WILLOW-JEAN PRIME IN THE NORTH SAYING SHE'S HAD TWO DECADES OF POLITICKING IN THE NORTH, THE HECKLING THIS TIME AND THE ACTUAL STRAIGHT-UP RACIST ALLEGATIONS ARE TERRIBLE. THE ATTACK ON THAT POOR YOUNG WOMAN, HANA, MAORI PARTY. SHE IS COMING BACK WITH` SHE HAS FULL SUPPORT OF HER KOHANGA REO AND IWI, SO DON'T THREATEN HER. IT SEEMS TOO THAT WINSTON PETERS IS PROBABLY ADDRESSING THAT. WHEN YOU SHOW UP WITH A BOOK FROM APIRANA NGATA, AND YOU QUOTE THE YOUNG MAORI PARTY, I THINK THAT IS A LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE FOR HIM. I DON'T BELIEVE` HAVE YOU EVER HEARD HIM REFER TO HIS MAORI WHAKAPAPA? NO. NOT SOMETHING HE GETS A LOT. HAS IT GOT A BIT UGLY, TOBY? YEAH, IT HAS, HASN'T IT? I THINK THERE HAS BEEN AN UGLINESS THAT'S SEEPED THROUGH A LARGE PART OF IT. WE DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT CAN JOIN THE DOTS FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO HANA MAIPI-CLARKE, BUT I THINK THAT WE SHOULD HAVE AN EXPECTATION OF CANDIDATES FOR PUBLIC OFFICE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THEIR LANGUAGE. I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD EXPECT AS A DEMOCRACY. WE ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE A DEMOCRACY WHERE IN AN ELECTION, PEOPLE ARE PRETTY ACCESSIBLE. I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THAT. YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE ACCESSIBILITY, BECAUSE IT IS ONE THING WE HAVE IN NEW ZEALAND. IN TERMS OF THE LEADERS' DEBATE, CHRIS HIPKINS IGNITED THAT, AND NOW WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT HIM AT ALL, EVEN THOUGH, JODI, HE DID QUITE WELL IN THE DEBATE. LABOUR HAD A BLIP, BUT NOW, NOBODY IS REALLY IS TALKING ABOUT THEM. QUITE WELL. WHAT I THINK IS REALLY INTERESTING ` CHIPPY WAS LEFT IN THE HUTT, AND SHOWED UP AS SOMEONE WHO BELIEVED THEY WERE PRESIDENTIAL, A PRIME MINISTER. THEY BOTH TALKED OVER EACH OTHER THE WHOLE TIME. IT WAS LIKE, WHO'S GONNA STOP TALKING FIRST? AS A VIEWER, I FOUND THAT ANNOYING. AS A JOURNALIST I THOUGHT, 'YEAH, THIS IS SO EXCITING!' (LAUGHS) HE HAD TO DO IT THOUGH, DIDN'T HE? YEAH. BECAUSE IN THE FIRST ONE, HE WAS DOWN THE BARREL, HE WAS NEGOTIATING EVERYTHING THROUGH THE V AXIS OF THE MODERATOR. HE HAD TO TURN AND PUT QUESTIONS, PUT PROVOCATIONS, PUT CHALLENGES TO HIS RIVAL. IT IS A RISK STRATEGY, BUT HE HAD TO DO IT. I THINK, IN THE END, IT PAID OFF FOR HIM. ALL RIGHT. OH, YES, JODI, GO ON. I WAS TALKING TO THE MILLENNIALS ` MY SON AND HIS FRIENDS. THEY RECKON LUXON WENT FROM KIND OF COLD TO COOL... OH, REALLY? ...AFTER THE DEBATE. BECAUSE HE WAS SMILING AND SEEMED A LITTLE BIT CONFIDENT. SO HE WARMED UP A LITTLE BIT. SLIGHTLY WARMER. I HAD TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND THINK, 'YEAH, THEY ARE RIGHT.' YEAH, I THINK IT WAS MUCH BETTER, BUT LUXON MANAGED TO HOLD IT TOGETHER. HE HELD HIS POISE, HE MANAGED TO KEEP THE SMILE GOING. HE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE SOMEONE OUT OF HIS DEPTH, WHICH IS WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A TRUE WIN. ALL RIGHT. LET'S JUST MOVE ON. LOTS TO TALK ABOUT. THE EDUCATION DEBATE JUST THEN WAS EXTREMELY FIERY ` STANFORD VERSUS TINETTI. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY WINNERS OUT OF THAT, BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A HARD PORTFOLIO. THEY DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THEY WERE MODELLING GOOD BEHAVIOUR. (LAUGHS) IS THIS WHAT YOUR TEACHERS WANT TO SHOW YOU? I THINK THAT EDUCATION HAS BEEN THIS SLOW SLIP EVENT ACROSS 20 YEARS, WHEN WE LOOK AT LITERACY ESPECIALLY. WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR, AND MAYBE THIS IS TRUE OF THE CAMPAIGN MORE GENERALLY, IS A VISION. WHERE IS THE VISION TO TURN IT AROUND AND GET US TO A PLACE WHERE WE NEED TO BE? I THINK THAT HAS BEEN ABSENT IN THE CAMPAIGN AS A WHOLE. OK. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO CRIME. MARK MITCHELL AND I HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUT STATISTICS. IS HE PRESENTING A VISION OF THE FUTURE, OR JUST PUTTING IN SOME POPULIST POLICY? IS HE SCARING THE GRANNIES, OR SCARING THE ELDERLY PEOPLE, LIKE GINNY ANDERSEN SAYS? WHAT DO YOU THINK? PERSONALLY, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT AT ALL. I THINK WE DO HAVE ACTUALLY HAVE A RISING CRIME PROBLEM. YOU JUST NEED TO WATCH THE NEWS EVERY NIGHT. WE HAD, IN COROMANDEL, WHERE MY MOTHER AND FAMILY LIVE, THOSE REBELS ROCKING UP WITH THEIR BIKES CAUSING DRAMA AND TRAUMA, THEN GOING TO OUR BEACH IN KENNEDY BAY AND REVVING UP THEIR BIKES. YEAH, MITCHELL SHOWED UP THERE TO GIVE THE LOCAL NATIONAL MP A LOT OF SUPPORT AND STUFF. I THINK BECAUSE HE HAS A GENTLE MANNER. HE IS NOT REALLY A SCREAMER, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. SO I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS GETTING ENOUGH CUT THROUGH, BUT WHERE IS GINNY? HAS ANYONE...? WE HAVE TALKED TO GINNY BEFORE, SO THAT'S WHY. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT NATIONAL'S FOCUS ON THE HARD ON CRIME, SOFT ON CRIME ARGUMENT? IT IS A SHAME IF WE GET TOO LOST IN THE HARD ON CRIME DEBATE. IT IS THAT BLEAR CLICHE OF HARD ON CRIME, HARD ON THE CAUSES OF CRIME. WHAT MITCHELL HAS MANAGED TO ACHIEVE IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE REVOLVING DOOR OF POLICE MINISTERS. TRUE, YEAH. HE HAS MANAGED TO HAVE THAT STABILITY. THE ONLY OTHER THING I WOULD SAY TO THAT IS, HE INVOKED SOCIAL INVESTMENT, AS DID ERICA STANFORD. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS A BIG SPEECH FROM CHRISTOPHER LUXON, OR NICOLA WILLIS, RIGHT NOW, ON SOCIAL INVESTMENT, AND AGAIN, COMING BACK TO THAT BIG VISION THING. WHAT I AM WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT TURNOUT WILL PLUMMET IN THIS ELECTION. OH REALLY? OK. SO, AS YOU SAY, VOTING STARTS MONDAY, LESS THAN 72 HOURS, WHAT ARE YOU HOPING TO SEE IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, JODI? STRONGER MESSAGING. THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT... I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR A LITTLE BIT MORE` SEE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THE PERSONALITY BEHIND THE POLITICIAN. I THINK THAT GOES TO WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IN THE BEEHIVE, AND HOW THEY WILL PRESENT THEMSELVES TO THE VOTERS. AND TOBY, NEXT TWO WEEKS, YOU'RE HOPING FOR SOME VISION? (LAUGHS) YEAH, TO COME BACK AGAIN. I THINK THE GREAT THING ABOUT THE DEBATE THIS WEEK IS THEY WERE KNOCKED OFF THEIR TALKING POINTS. THE LAST THING WE WANT IS JUST TALKING POINT, FIGHTING, TALKING POINT. I WANT TO SEE THINGS GO UP ANOTHER LEVEL AND SEE THEM RIP UP THEIR TALKING POINTS, AND TELL US WHAT NEW ZEALAND LOOKS LIKE IN 15, 20 YEARS. OK. WELL, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE. JODI IHAKA, THANK YOU SO MUCH. TOBY MANHIRE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATOU. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. TWO WEEKS TO GO UNTIL ELECTION DAY. AND OVERSEAS VOTING IS ALREADY UNDERWAY. TIME IS RUNNING OUT FOR EITHER CHRIS TO MAKE HIS CASE, AND BOTH CAMPAIGNS ARE FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS. HERE'S FINN HOGAN WITH WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. REPORTER: ANOTHER DAY ON THE TRAIL AND ANOTHER SNACK FOR CHRIS HIPKINS, BUT THE NOVELTY SEEMS TO BE WEARING OFF. WE SEEM TO HAVE EXHAUSTED DEMAND. MEANWHILE, LUXON WAS MAKING SURE TO MILK EVERY VOTE FROM HIS BASE, ATTEMPTING TO POUR A PINT. IT'S GETTING WORSE. BUT THAT'S OK. THOUGH HE'S DEFINITELY SOLD THESE SUPPORTERS. LET'S GO, PARTY VOTE! OH, WE'VE GOT THE BUS! AND HE CHRISTENED HIS NEW CAMPAIGN COACH WITH A CHOIR. # ...TATOU, TATOU E. MEANWHILE, A SPIRITED DEBATE SAW HIPKINS FIND HIS FIRE. SHOW US YOUR NUMBERS. YOU'VE GOT NO NUMBERS. IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE GREAT TV IF WE'RE TALKING OVER THE TOP OF EACH OTHER. CALM DOWN. PADDY: YEAH, LET HIM ANSWER. IF YOU ACTUALLY ANSWERED ANY OF THE QUESTIONS, I WOULDN'T NEED TO CHALLENGE YOU QUITE SO MUCH. BUT IS IT TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE? WELL, NOT IF WE ASK THE MAN HIMSELF. HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED JUST WALKING AWAY? NEVER. NEVER CROSSED YOUR MIND? NEVER. JUST 14 DAYS TO GO UNTIL A CHRIS IS CROWNED. SO TWO MORE WEEKS LEFT IN THIS CAMPAIGN. IF YOU JUST CAN'T WAIT TO VOTE, EARLY VOTING STARTS ON MONDAY. AND IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO ENROL IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY ` JUST VISIT vote.nz. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. IT HAS BEEN A BUSY SHOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. CERTAINLY HAS. NGA MIHI NUI. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND SAM BAKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023