BUT THE TYPICAL STORY OF SPRING, FACTOR IN THE RAINCOAT. THAT'S IT FROM THE 6pm TEAM, BUT KEEP WATCHING ` THANKS, SIMON. HERE'S JACK TAME WITH THE MULTIPARTY DEBATE. KIA ORA E TE IWI, NAU MAI HAERE MAI, AND WELCOME TO TVNZ'S MULTI-PARTY DEBATE. WHILE NATIONAL AND LABOUR DUKE IT OUT, SOME OF THE PARTIES REPRESENTED HERE TONIGHT WILL PLAY A CRITICAL ROLE IN FORMING THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 GOOD EVENING. MORE THAN 204,000 KIWIS HAVE CAST AN EARLY BALLOT SO FAR IN THIS YEAR'S ELECTION, BUT THERE IS STILL A MASSIVE CHUNK OF YOU OUR CANDIDATES ARE KEEN TO PERSUADE TONIGHT. FIGHTING FOR YOUR VOTE THIS ELECTION IS ACT LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR, NEW ZEALAND FIRST LEADER WINSTON PETERS, GREEN PARTY CO-LEADER JAMES SHAW AND RAWIRI WAITITI FROM TE PATI MAORI. RAWIRI, WE JUST WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECENT PASSING OF YOUR MOTHER. MOE MAI RA. TENA KOE IF THERE IS ONE THING THAT EVERYONE HERE AND WATCHING AT HOME CAN AGREE ON ` THERE ARE A LOT OF DUDES ON THE DANCEFLOOR. AS WELL AS THESE LEADERS, WE'LL HEAR FROM A RANGE OF VOICES TONIGHT AS WE DISCUSS COALITION DYNAMICS, TRUST AND LEADERSHIP; PLUS THE ISSUES THAT MATTER MOST TO LOTS OF YOU, LIKE CRIME, THE COST OF LIVING, AND THE AGE-OLD QUESTION OF SUPERANNUATION. ALONG WITH YOU AT HOME, WATCHING THE CANDIDATES SQUARE OFF IS OUR LIVE STUDIO AUDIENCE. THANKS FOR BEING HERE. AND DON'T FORGET ` RIGHT AFTER THE DEBATE, WE'LL ANALYSE THEIR RESPECTIVE PERFORMANCES; THE FOLLOWING SCRIPT POLITICAL EDITOR JESSICA MUTCH McKAY WILL HAVE AN ALL-STAR TOP-OF-THE-POPS PANEL BREAKING DOWN WHAT OUR CANDIDATES HAD TO SAY. IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING, WE HAVE SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS ON HAND ` SWITCH OVER TO FREEVIEW CHANNEL 200 TO SEE THEM. LET'S GET INTO IT. I WANT TO START WITH THE VALUES. I WILL GIVE YOU EACH A CHANCE. WINSTON PETERS, WHY ARE YOUR VALUES AND THE BEST INTEREST OF NEW ZEALAND. WE CALL OUR PARTY NEW ZEALAND FIRST BECAUSE WE BELIEVE NEW ZEALANDER SHOULD BE PUT FIRST. WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF A DEMOCRACY, THINGS AT STAKE IN THE ELECTION IS THAT DEMOCRACY. THOSE OTHER VALUES OUR PARTY HAS PROMOTED FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS. THE PARTY BELIEVES THOSE FUNDAMENTAL VALUES WILL PREVAIL NOW AND ARE FUNDAMENTALLY NEEDED. IT HAS BEEN A LONG CAMPAIGN, A LOT OF PEOPLE MAY BE OVER IT. WE CANNOT AFFORD TO CARRY ON THE WAY THAT WE HAVE BEEN GOING. AT CAN'T BE TRUE THAT OUR ONLY CHOICES ARE MORE THE SAME, OR INSTABILITY. YOU KNOW WHAT ACT WILL DO IN GOVERNMENT, GET THE ECONOMY UNDER CONTROL, SO PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO BREATHE FINANCIALLY. ENSURE THAT PUBLIC SERVICE FOR WATER, HEALTHCARE, EDUCATION, ARE DELIVERED IN ACCORDANCE WITH NEED NOT RACE OR ETHNICITY. YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING ANY PARTY SAYS, BUT IF YOU TRUST US, WE WILL FIGHT FOR REAL CHANGE. A CHANGE IN DIRECTION THAT THIS COUNTRY SORELY NEEDS. RAWIRI WAITITI, WHY ARE YOUR VALUES AND THE BEST INTEREST OF NEW ZEALAND? FIRST, TE PATI MAORI IS THE ONLY TANGATA WHENUA PARTY IN THIS RACE. WE ARE A PART OF EVERY POLITICAL DECISION IN THIS COUNTRY. WE WILL ENSURE A TIRITI-CENTRED GOVERNMENT. WE WILL FEED YOU, HOW'S YOU, CARE FOR YOU. THOSE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL VALUES THAT TE PATI MAORI EXUDES IN OUR POLICY MANIFESTO. EVERYBODY IS WELCOME TO THE GATEWAY OF OUR MARAE. I WANT TO EXTEND MY CONDOLENCES ON THE LOSS OF YOUR MOTHER. THE GREEN PARTY WILL MAKE SURE EVERYONE CAN PAY FOR GROCERIES, RENT, POWER BILLS, TO ENSURE EVERYONE HAS A WARM, AND AFFORDABLE HOME TO CALL THEIR OWN. AND TO ALSO FACE THE LONG-TERM CHALLENGES WE FACE, SUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE. THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE BOYS STOOD FOR. ACT IS ON TRACK TO GET THE HIGHEST THIRD-PARTY SUPPORT IN 20 YEARS. PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT THE GOVERNMENT'S BOOKS, AND CAN SEE THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO CARRY ON THE WAY WE HAVE BEEN GOING. WITH THE AMOUNT OF GOVERNMENT WASTE AND THE GRADUAL EROSION OF OUR DEMOCRACY, WHERE SERVICES ARE DELIVERED ACCORDING TO RACE, AND WE ARE DIVIDED RATHER THAN UNITED. PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR CHANGE, MY CONTENTION IS THAT ACT AS THE PARTY THAT HAS COHERENT PLANS WHEN IT COMES TO THE ECONOMY, EDUCATION, TO FIND A PATHWAY BACK TO A COUNTRY THAT IS SAFE TO GO TO A DAIRY, THAT IS AFFORDABLE WHEN YOU GO TO THE SHOPS, AND EACH OF US AS PART OF NEW ZEALAND WITH UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS, NOT DIVIDED BY ETHNICITY. PEOPLE WANT THAT REAL CHANGE, AND ACTORS ASKING FOR YOUR PARTY VOTE. WE NEED A GENUINE CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY. THE WORD CHANGE COMES UP ALL THE TIME. BUT UNDER MMP SYSTEM, IT WILL BE THROUGH WHATEVER DEAL IS NEGOTIATED WITH YOUR PARTIES. LET'S START WITH COALITION, THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT POLICIES. NEW ZEALAND FIRST, YOU HAVE SUPPORTED NATIONAL AND LABOUR ON SEPARATE OCCASIONS. THE RELATIONSHIP HAS ENDED WITH BITTERNESS, OR IN AN ACRIMONIOUS WAY. WHY SHOULD NEW ZEALAND TRUST YOU TO BE A SABRE COLLEGE PARTNER? FIRSTLY, THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE. BETWEEN 2017 AND 2020, IT WAS A STABLE GOVERNMENT. IT WAS SO STABLE THAT 450,000 NATIONAL PEOPLE VOTED FOR IT. HELEN CLARK WENT PUBLIC TWO DAYS AGO TO SAY THAT, WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT ME WAS UNTRUE. PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT. WHY SHOULD NEW ZEALANDERS TRUST YOU TO BE A STABLE COLLEGE PARTNER? AS JIM BOLGER SAID, AND AS HELEN CLARK SAID, AS THE LABOUR PARTY SAID ALL THE WAY TO TWENTY20, WE HAVE PROVED THAT WE CAN BE. AND WE KNOW THAT ON ELECTION NIGHT, THERE IS A MASSIVE MISSION WE WILL HAVE TWO ACCOMPLISH. WE NEED TO REMEMBER WHAT TO DO IN THE FUTURE. PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A SERIOUSLY BETTER GOVERNMENT. THEY DON'T WANT A HARD LURCH TO THE RIGHT. THEY WANT TO SEE US GO FORWARD, AND UNDERSTAND THE SATE OF THE ECONOMY AND MAKE COMMERCE AS FOR THE CRISIS WE ARE IN. DO YOU TRUST WINSTON PETERS? I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE STANDS ON ISSUES. HE SAID HE WOULD STAND UP FOR FARMERS, VOTED FOR JAMES SHAW'S ACT. THIS IS RUBBISH. AND THEN HE SAID HE WILL STAND UP FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTI-MANDATE. AND SEES THE UNVACCINATED WERE HOLDING THE COUNTRY TO RANSOM. I CAN'T TELL WHERE HE STANDS. DO YOU TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR? CAN I RESPOND TO THAT BY SAYING PEOPLE, MAY BE SAYING, START GROWING UP. THE CRISIS ASSOCIATES THE CRISIS ASSOCIATES, WHEN YOU SAY THOSE THINGS, ON THE QUESTION OF CO-GOVERNANCE... WE ARE GOING TO GET TO CO-GOVERNANCE. WAS IN PETERS, DO YOU TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR? DO YOU TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR? IT IS NOT MY JOB TO TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR. IT IS MY JOB TO CONVINCE MY COLLEAGUES, WHO WOULD MAKE THE DECISION, NOT JUST ME, THAT AS THIS IS THE THING WE NEED TO DO. UNFORTUNATELY, I AM JUST TELLING THE TRUTH. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ADVICE TO ANY PARTY GOING INTO GOVERNMENT WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST? IF YOU ARE VOTING FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY, THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE VOTING FOR. THAT IS PRETTY HIGH RISK. WE HAD A VERY CORDIAL RELATIONSHIP. WE DIDN'T AGREE ON EVERYTHING, BUT FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY, WE MADE IT WORK. THIS WEEK'S 1 NEWS POLL SHOWED THAT GREENS AND NATIONAL WOULD HAVE A COMFORTABLE MAJORITY. GREENS COULD NEGOTIATE CLIMATE POLICY CONCESSIONS. AS YOUR DISLIKE OF NATIONAL GREATER THEN THE CLIMATE CRISIS CONCERN? THERE ARE A MYRIAD OF THINGS THAT MAY HAPPEN, BUT WE ARE CAMPAIGNING ON RETURNING TO GOVERNMENT WITH LABOUR, AND CABINETS TO INFLUENCE THAT GOVERNMENT. RAWIRI WAITITI, YOU HAVE MADE CLEAR THAT COLLAGEN WITH COALITION WITH EITHER MAJOR PARTY IS NOT A CONCERN. I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY ADULTS IN THE ROOM YET. BUT SO YOU KNOW, MAORI HAVE ACHIEVED EVERYTHING WE HAVE ACHIEVED AN OPPOSITION. I AM NOT GOING TO ALLOW GOVERNMENTS TO CLAIM THE WINDS OF MAORI OVER THE LAST 183 YEARS BASED ON POOR PERFORMANCE, BASED ON CONTINUING TO HARM OUR PEOPLE. THIS IS ABOUT A PROUD MAORI VOICE IN PARLIAMENT. I WANT SPECIFICITY ` IF ANY DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION YOU FIND YOURSELF NEGOTIATING, JAMES SHAW, WHAT WILL BE YOUR TOP PRIORITY? ULTIMATELY, WE CAN HAVE EVERYTHING WE NEED IN THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE EVERYTHING WE NEED TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE HOMES AND ENOUGH TO LIVE ON. CLIMATE CHANGE, AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE CAMPAIGNING ON A FAIRER TAX SYSTEM. IT IS FIXING THE ECONOMY. WE ALSO HAVE A DEAL WITH MISINTERPRETATION OF THE TREATY. IS MOST FUNDAMENTAL THAT THE NUMBER ONE OBJECTIVE AFTER THE ELECTION IS TO FORM A WORKABLE, FAR BETTER'S, STABLE GOVERNMENT, AND RETURN OUR DEMOCRACY TO WHAT IT ONCE WAS. THEY WILL SPEAK ON OCTOBER 14. IS ABOUT GOING BACK TO OUR PEOPLE AND ENSURING THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT WE HAVE, AND WHERE WE CAN HEAD TO GET THE BEST FOR OUR PEOPLE. AND GOVERNMENT OR OPPOSITION. I WANT TO ASK A VALUES QUESTION. RAWIRI WAITITI, IS IT OKAY EVER TO NOT TELL THE TRUTH AS A POLITICIAN? NEVER. YOUR BODY LANGUAGE WILL SHOW IT. KNOW IT IS NOT. I THINK INTEGRITY IS CRITICAL. WHETHER IT'S DROUGHT, AN INCREASE IN CYCLONES OR FLASH FLOODING, ALL OF US ARE AFFECTED BY EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS. NEXT, WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT THESE LEADERS ARE GOING TO DO TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE. HOKI MAI. WELCOME BACK. TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS OF EXTREME WEATHER ` TAKE A LOOK AT THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS OF EXTREME WEATHER ` AUSTRALIA HAS RECORDED 36 DEGREES IN SPRING, NEW YORK IS DEALING WITH WILDFIRE SMOKE AS IT CLEANS UP FROM THE WEEKEND'S FLASH FLOODING, AND CLIMATE SCIENTISTS CALLED AN EMERGENCY SUMMIT OVER THE RECORD-LOW SEA ICE AROUND ANTARCTICA. IF YOU FIND THOSE PICTURES DISTURBING, YOU'RE NOT ALONE. WE DON'T NEED (CHUCKLES) ANY MORE CARS. MAN, WE'RE GONNA BURN OR BOIL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS AND LISTEN TO THE SCIENTISTS, IT'S UNLIKELY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A GOOD FUTURE, IF WE DO GET A FUTURE. WE NEED TO LISTEN TO THE EARTH, AND WE'RE JUST NOT DOING THAT, EVEN IF WE, LIKE, PRETEND TO, YOU KNOW? WE'D ACTUALLY BEEN WATCHING IN HORROR THE FLOODS IN AUSTRALIA IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS AND RETURNED FROM THERE BECAUSE WE WERE SO CONCERNED ABOUT CLIMATE OVER THERE, AND` AND THEN GOT HIT WITH IT HERE. FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT'LL TAKE UNTIL THEIR $5m, $10m HOUSE SLIPS DOWN A LANDSLIDE FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY MAYBE EVEN MAKE ANY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF CLIMATE CHANGE. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE UNDER AN MMP GOVERNMENT TO GET TRUE CHANGE. I'LL GIVE EACH OF OUR LEADERS A CHANCE TO FINISH MY SENTENCE ` STARTING WITH YOU, JAMES SHAW. 'CLIMATE CHANGE IS...' IS A RISK TO HUMANITY, BUT IT IS ALSO THE GREATEST OPPORTUNITY IN AT LEAST A GENERATION IN ORDER TO GIVE OURSELVES A MORE PRODUCTIVE, CLEANER, SMARTER ECONOMY THAT LEAVES NO ONE BEHIND. CLIMATE CHANGE IS SOMETHING WE MUST MANAGE VERY CAREFULLY. WE MUST DO OUR BIT, BUT IF WE PUT THE MOST EFFICIENT FARMERS IN THE WORLD OUT OF BUSINESS, GET THEIR PROTEIN FROM LESS EFFICIENT FARMERS, WE CAN SHOOT OURSELVES IN BOTH FEET. IT IS ALSO COMPLETELY UNTRUE TO SAY IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY WHEN CLIMATE CHANGE ACTION MEANS WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY, HAVE LESS SOURCES OF ENERGY. IT IS ACTUALLY A COST AND ONE THAT WE MUST BEAR, BUT IN THE LEAST EXPENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE. THAT MEANS LESS PURE * LESS BUREAUCRACY SO THAT WE CAN LIVE THROUGH THIS AND LIVE GOOD LIVES. CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BEEN WITH US FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS. THE REALITY IS THAT WE CAN FULFIL ALL OUR OBLIGATIONS BY ENSURING WE DO IT HERE OURSELVES. WE ARE 0.17% OF THE WORLD'S EMISSIONS. THE BIG COUNTRIES ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING. WE CAN'T SEND OUR YOUNG PEOPLE BROKEN WITH NO FUTURES. WE WENT TO PARIS ACCORD AND THEY ALL SIGNED UP IN 2015; THEY SAID THAT FOOD WOULD BE EXEMPT, AND THEY ARE GOING BACK ON THEIR WORD ONE LAST THING. WE ARE GOING TO CRIPPLE OURSELVES FOR NO LONG-TERM VALUE OR PURPOSE. YOU SPUTTERED ON YOUR WATER THERE. IF YOU DIDN'T TAKE ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO SMALL TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, THAT IS LIKE SAYING WE SHOULDN'T HAVE PARTICIPATED IN WORLD WAR II BECAUSE WE COULD NOT HAVE DEFEATED THE NAZIS BY OURSELVES. IF WE DON'T TAKE ACTION, IT MEANS LOS ANGELES, HOUSTON, CHICAGO DOESN'T NEED TO TAKE ACTION. WE ALL HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY. IT IS A HUMAN ISSUE, AND WE NEED TO ENSURE WE HAVE POLICIES, HUMAN CHANGES TO ENSURE WE CAN INFLUENCE CHANGE AND I WERE CLIMATE. YOU NEED INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. WESTERN SCIENCE HAS GOT US TO THIS POINT. WE NEED TO ENSURE WE CAN INFUSE INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE PART OF THE DISCUSSION AND WE ARE PART OF THE HUMAN CHANGE THAT AFFECTS THE CLIMATE PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON OUR PEOPLE. WHAT IS YOUR ONE POLICY THAT WILL REDUCE EMISSIONS? BANNING SEABED MINING, REVOKING ALL OF THE PERMITS WHEN IT COMES TOOFFSHORE OIL DRILLING. IS NOT AND AND OR IN TERMS OF FARMING; IT IS AND AND. WINSTON PETERS, WHAT IS THE ONE POLICY THAT WILL REDUCE EMISSIONS? WE ARE GOING TO PLANT A WHOLE LOT OF NATIVE TREES, MAKE SURE WE GET RID OF THE PERMANENT SEQUESTRATION; ENSURE THE SCIENCE IS USED BY US TO CUT OUR EMISSIONS. WE ARE ALREADY TWO THIRDS BETTER OFF WHEN WE COME TO ANIMALS THAN OTHER COUNTRIES. I WOULD JOB IS TO ENSURE WE LIST EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY TO GO FORWARD AND GET ON TOP OF IT, INCLUDING CLIMATE MITIGATION, WHICH IS CRITICAL. DAVID SEYMOUR, WHAT IS THE ONE POLICY OF YOUR PARTY? IT IS NOT A PARTY'S JOB TO DO THAT. WE HAVE TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS BY CAPPING THE ETS AT THE SAME LEVEL OF OUR TRADING PARTNERS SO WE DON'T GO FASTER OR SLOWER AND THEN ALLOWING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE MAKING DECISIONS EVERY DAY WITH NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO REDUCE THEIR EMISSIONS. WE HAVE TRIED PEOPLE INVESTING IN THIS TECHNOLOGY AND ALL THAT; WE HAVE TRIED PEOPLE INVESTING IN THIS TECHNOLOGY AND ALL THAT. CAN I RESPOND TO THAT? WHAT HE IS PROPOSING IS A MULDOON POLICY, LIKE WHEN UNDER MULDOON HE USED TO SET THE EXCHANGE RATE BASED ON A BASKET OF OTHER CURRENCIES AROUND THE WORLD. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EU, CHINA WITH A $20 CARBON PRICE, US IN THE MIDDLE, THE IDEA THAT WE WOULD OVERRIDE THE MARKET... WE ARE NOT SETTING PRICES. THAT IS UP TO THE MARKET. ACTUALLY... WHAT IS YOUR ONE POLICY? REMEMBER WHEN I ASKED FOR AN OPINION? I AM HERE TO TELL YOU WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN ANY... YOU JUST SAID... GUYS! GUYS! JAMES. IF WE ARE JUST SQUABBLING OVER ETS, WE ARE LOSING EVERYBODY VERY QUICKLY. WHAT ARE THE ONE POLICY OF YOUR PARTY THAT WILL ACHIEVE THE GREATEST EMISSIONS REDUCTION? THE SINGLE GREATEST POLICY WE HAVE INTRODUCED AS RECYCLING REVENUE FROM POLLUTERS AND YOU CUTTING EMISSIONS. ON MY WATCH AND THREE YEARS, WE HAVE SEEN GROSS EMISSIONS FOR. *FALL. DO NEW ZEALAND FARMERS HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR HERD SIZES? THEY HAVE TO REDUCE EMISSIONS. FOR THAT REQUIRE HERD SIZE REDUCTION? SOME FARMS AND SOME FARMING SYSTEMS FARMERS CAN MAKE MORE MONEY BY REDUCING THEIR INPUT COSTS, CUTTING THEIR HERD SIZE BY ABOUT 10 TO 15% AND CUTTING THEIR POLLUTION... LET'S TELL THE TRUTH. JAMES IS POLICY MEANS A 20% REDUCTION AND HERD PRICES SO THAT FARMERS OVERSEAS CAN TAKE UP THE MARKET. THAT IS THE TRUTH. WHILE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FAILED POLICIES, HE HAS HAD IT HIS WAY FOR SIX YEARS. HE DECLARED A CLIMATE EMERGENCY AND COMPLETELY FAILED... TO DO NEW ZEALAND FARMERS HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR HERD SIZES? NO. WE HAVE THE SCIENCE, WE HAVE 30% EMISSIONS. WE CAN GET ON TOP OF THIS. IF JAMES'S INTENTION IS TO USE OUR MONEY AND SOME SORT OF NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE, WE WILL HAVE EXPLOITED OUR PEOPLE MASSIVELY. YOU SIGNED UP TO THE ZERO CARBON ACT. BUT YOU OPPOSED BUYING OFFSHORE CREDITS THAT WILL BE REQUIRED TO MEET OUR TARGETS. I SIGNED UP AT THE SAME TIME WHEN WE WERE WORKING WITH FEDERATED FARMERS, EVERYBODY GOING IN SAME DIRECTION` CAN I FINISH? EVERYBODY WAS GOING AND THE SAME DIRECTION UNTIL WE LEFT, AND NOW WE HAVE GOT ARGUMENTS AND FIGHTING. SHOULD WE ABANDON THOSE TARGETS? WE SHOULD TRUST THE SCIENCE. I AM TOTALLY CONFIDENT THAT WE CAN GET ON TOP OF THIS. YOU HAVE TALKED TO BREEDERS? YES. UNDER THE CURRENT SETTING, ABSOLUTELY THEY NEED TO REDUCE HERD NUMBERS. BUT WE NEED TO ENSURE THEY ARE PART OF THE ETS. THEY ARE SOME OF THE BIGGEST POLLUTERS. THERE ARE PEOPLE SITTING IN THIS ROOM NOW WHO HAVE BEEN PART OF THE GOVERNMENT, ALLOWING THE COWS TO RUN FREE WITHOUT BEING PART OF THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME. THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN RIGHT AWAY. HERDS SHOULD COME DOWN AFTER THE CURRENT PRACTICES. LET'S FINISH ON A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO INTEGRITY. JAMES, YOU HAVE BEEN MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE FOR SIX YEARS. OUR BIGGEST EMITTING INDUSTRY STILL DOES NOT PAY FOR ON-FARM EMISSIONS. A BIG PART OF THE DROP HAS BEEN ATTRIBUTED TO COVID 19 AND RAINFALL PLUMPING UP THE HYDRO LAKES. WHY SHOULD VOTERS BELIEVE YOU? ON AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS, BRINGING AGRICULTURE AND THE ETS WAS IN THE NZ FIRST COALITION, AND CABINET DID NOT FOLLOW MY ADVICE, AND THAT IS WHY WE DON'T HAVE AGRICULTURE EMISSIONS PRICING IT. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I HAVE BEEN PUSHING IT, BUT ULTIMATELY THE REASON WHY WE ARE ARGUING FOR MORE GREEN IS SO THAT WE CAN ENSURE WE CAN GET IT DONE. SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP FAILING. A QUESTION FOR YOU AS WELL. OVER THE YEARS, MEMBERS OF YOUR PARTY HAVE OUTSPOKENLY DENIED THE THREAT OF CLIMATE CHANGE. GIVEN YOUR HISTORY OF CLIMATE CHANGE DENIAL, WHY SHOULD ACT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO SHAPE CLIMATE POLICY? WE KNOW THAT LAST TIME YOU BOUGHT THIS UP YOU BROUGHT SOMETHING UP FROM 2008 AND HAD TO CORRECT YOUR ARTICLE. WHAT ABOUT YOUR CURRENT MP, MARK CAMERON? HE BELIEVES CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL AND HAS COMMITTED TO STRONG ACTION. THE ACT PARTY SAYS THAT IF WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, WE NEED TO PUT A LOT MORE EFFORT INTO ADAPTING TO THE EFFECTS. THIS IS THE PROBLEM OF JAMES AND THE GREENS. I CALLED HIM JAMES OFFSHORE, BECAUSE HE SPENT MORE TIMES AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAN HELPING PEOPLE HERE. YOU ARE REALLY ABUSING THE PRIVILEGE HERE. THE SIMPLE FACT IS YOU CAN HAVE ALL THE WISECRACKS YOU LIKE, BUT YOU HAVE FAILED ON CLIMATE CHANGE. THEY HAD A 4 1/2 BILLION... GUYS, WE HAVE A LOT TO GET THROUGH TONIGHT. WE HAVE A LOT TO GO THROUGH. DO NOT GO ANYWHERE. WE HAVE A SUBJECT I KNOW DAVID SEYMOUR WILL WANT TO DISCUSS IN A COUPLE OF MOMENTS. NEXT, WE'RE TALKING THE TREATY OF WAITANGI AND CO-GOVERNANCE ` AND WHY YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT BOTH. KIA ORA. WELCOME BACK. ON AVERAGE, NON-MAORI NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE BETTER EDUCATION OUTCOMES, LONGER LIFE EXPECTANCY, AND AREN'T IMPRISONED AT THE SAME RATES AS MAORI AND PASIFIKA. LET'S START WITH THE WHY, THEN LOOK AT HOW WE REBALANCE THE BOOKS. RAWIRI WAITITI, WHY DO NON-MAORI HAVE SUCH BETTER OUTCOMES? BECAUSE THE SETTINGS OF THIS COUNTRY HAS CREATED THAT. WE ARE HERE BY DESIGN. THE SYSTEM HAS BEEN BUILT AROUND PAKEHA IDEOLOGY. ARTICLE 1 OF TE TIRITI WAS ABOUT KAWANATANGA. ARTICLE 2 WAS ABOUT MY RIGHT TO MY WHENUA. WE HAVE ONLY GIVEN INTEGRITY TO ARTICLE 1. THE GREATEST MAORI POLITICIAN WROTE THIS BOOK. I WAS POLITE ENOUGH TO LISTEN TO YOU. SIR PETER BUCK WAS THERE SAYING THE SAME THING. ALONG COMES THIS FELLOW, REINVENTING THE FACTS. I BELIEVE THIS GREAT MAN. NOT WHAT THIS RACIST SEPARATIST APPROACH IS. WHAT WAS RACIST? YOU WOULDN'T KNOW. THIS GUY... THIS MAN KNOWS NO MAORI PROTOCOL AT ALL. WHY DO NON-MAORI HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES? THE KEYWORD YOU LEFT OUT WAS ON AVERAGE. WE ARE TOLD WE WANT TO CHERISH MAORI LANGUAGE AND CULTURE, AND WE DO, AND ALL THE OTHERS. WE WANT TO PUT RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE PAST. WE SUPPORT THE TREATY SETTLEMENT PROCESS. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE TO KIDS BORN SIDE-BY-SIDE HAVE THE SAME CHOICES AND CHANCES IN LIFE. THOSE ARE ADMIRABLE GOALS WE SHOULD SIGN UP TO, BUT WE ARE BEING TOLD THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE THAT IS IF WE ARE SEPARATED INTO TANGATA WHENUA AND TANGATA TIRITI. IT IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE TREATY, AND HAS NEVER WORKED ANYWHERE IN HUMAN HISTORY. SO TODAY, DO MAORI CHILDREN HAVE THE SAME CHANCES AND OPPORTUNITIES AS NON-MAORI? ON AVERAGE, NO BUT THERE IS A TRAP IN THEIR. THERE ARE MAORI KIDS DOING VERY WELL. THERE ARE OTHERS THAT ARE MASSIVELY DISADVANTAGED. WE NEED TO TARGET DISADVANTAGE WHERE WE FIND IT, WITHOUT LAZILY DIVIDING PEOPLE INTO RACE. I AM PROUD OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE WITH CHARTER SCHOOLS. THOSE ALLOW ALL SORTS OF COMMUNITIES TO FIND PUBLIC SERVICES THAT CONNECT WITH THEIR KIDS. YOU CAN MAKE SIMILAR ARGUMENTS FOR HEALTHCARE. WE ALSO NEED TO DO FAR BETTER AT BUILDING HOMES. THE NUMBER ONE SOURCE OF DISADVANTAGE THAT SPILLS INTO HEALTH AND EDUCATION IS NOT HAVING SECURE HOUSING. IF WE CAN GET OURSELVES TOGETHER RATHER THAN DIVIDED TO SOLVE THOSE PROBLEMS, THOSE GOALS ARE ACHIEVABLE. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ONE RULE FOR ALL IN THIS COUNTRY SINCE THE START OF COLONISATION. ULTIMATELY, THE ABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO WORK WITH MAORI ORGANISATIONS TO PROVIDE PUBLIC SERVICES TO MAORI, TO ENSURE THEY ARE ACTUALLY ABLE TO GET THOSE TRANCES, CHANCES, I THINK IS A GOOD THING. DO YOU THINK IT IS DEMOCRATIC? ULTIMATELY, THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO GET MORE THAN ONE VOTE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE OWNERS OF MULTIPLE PROPERTIES. THE NOTION THAT MAORI GET MORE IS COMPLETE RUBBISH. IT IS A LIE THAT HAS BEEN PERPETUATED... THE NATIONAL PARTY'S ALLIES. IT IS A TERM THAT HAS BEEN PROMINENT THROUGHOUT THIS CAMPAIGN. ESSENTIALLY, CO-GOVERNANCE IS THE TREATY OF WAITANGI PARTNERS, THE CROWN AND MAORI, HAVING EQUAL SEATS AROUND THE DECISION-MAKING TABLE. IF YOU MISSED TVNZ'S KAUPAPA MAORI DEBATE, YOU'VE GOT TO WATCH IT ON DEMAND ` IT WAS FASCINATING. AS PART OF IT, WE ASKED A RANGE OF MAORI VOTERS FOR THEIR THOUGHTS ON CO-GOVERNANCE. TE TIRITI O WAITANGI IS THERE. WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THAT IS HOW OUR NATION WAS FORMED. BUT IF WE THINK ABOUT OPERATING AS A WHANAU MORE, THEN REALLY, IT'S ABOUT HAVING EVERYBODY HAVE A SAY AROUND THE TABLE. AND, YOU KNOW, LIKE IT OR NOT, DEMOCRACY DOESN'T NECESSARILY ACHIEVE THAT. CO-GOVERNANCE ISN'T ONLY GOOD, BUT IT'S NEEDED. IT'S VITAL FOR US AS OUR PEOPLE, PEOPLE OF THIS LAND. I THINK MAORI HAVE PROVED TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT KAUPAPA BUILT BY MAORI FOR THE BETTER OF MAORI PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS WORKED. THEY NEED TO INFORM THEMSELVES ON THOSE AREAS, AND ONCE THEY GET TO KNOW WHAT IT'S ABOUT, THEY'LL KNOW WHAT WE'RE ABOUT, YOU KNOW? AND WE'RE NOT ABOUT, UM, STANDING OVER OTHER PEOPLE'S IDENTITY ` YOU KNOW, LIKE THEY DO TO US FOR YEARS. I THINK IT'S ABOUT SHIFTING THE SCALES A BIT, AND THEY'RE NOT USED TO THAT. UM, BUT FOR US... YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'LL BENEFIT EVERYBODY, BECAUSE ONCE YOU BALANCE THE SCALES, YOU'LL BALANCE ALL THE OTHER THINGS, LIKE POVERTY. RAWIRI WAITITI, AS A PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION, SHOULD MAORI HAVE DIFFERENT RIGHTS AND REPRESENTATION? THESE ARE TREATY RIGHTS. THIS IS WHAT OUR ANCESTORS EXPECTED IN 1840. THIS IS ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF TANGATA WHENUA. THAT IS ABOUT ENSURING WE ARE PART OF THE DISCUSSION, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT BEEN. THE PEOPLE AROUND THIS TABLE HAVE BEEN IN GOVAN FOR A LONG TIME. I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A GENERATION WHERE I AM PROUD OF MY WHAKAPAPA. THERE ARE PEOPLE AT THIS TABLE WHO ARE NOT. THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT TAKEN BY... FORCE. THIS COUNTRY WAS SETTLED BY CONSENT, ENSURING MAORI HAVE AN EQUAL VOICE AT THE TABLE. WHANAU ORA HASN'T HURT ANYBODY, A MAORI AUTHORITY DOESN'T HURT ANYONE. ACT IS PROPOSING A REFERENDUM ON THE PRINCIPLES. IS THAT GOOD FOR ANYONE? YOU WOULD ALLOW THE MAJORITY TO DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF A MINORITY. THIS STARTED OUT AS A CERTAIN THING, BUT IT IS NOW ELITIST AND EXTREME. ORDINARY MAORI DO NOT GET ANY SAY. I AM AN ORDINARY MAORI. THE SECOND THING IS, YOU HAVE IS A ELITISM WHICH NOW SAYS, WE WANT SPECIAL INSTITUTIONS. THEY DO THAT IN AMERICA, AND ENDED UP OR THE BLACK PRESIDENT. ORDINARY MAORI WILL NOT GET A THING. CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAID ON THE HUI THAT SUCH A REFERENDUM WOULD BE DIVISIVE AND UNHELPFUL. HE IS WRONG BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTIONAL FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY IS BEING DEBATED AND DECIDED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS I MEAN ACADEMICS, THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL. IT IS ABOUT A PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN RACES, AND THE GOVERNANCE OF THREE WATERS, OR NEW PLANNING PANELS, OR WITHIN THE NEW HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, YOU NEED TO 1ST KNOW WHO YOUR ANCESTORS WERE. THERE IS NEVER BEEN A SOCIETY WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DIVIDED BY SUPERFICIAL CHARACTERISTICS. WHAT WE NEED IS A CLEAR STATEMENT FROM PARLIAMENT THAT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY ARE WHAT WE ACTUALLY SAY. THAT WE HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AND DUTIES. THAT IS WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT IS THE UNDERLYING PRINCIPLE. YOU DON'T NEED THIS DIVISION. WHAT DOES ARTICLE TO SAY? UNDISTURBED, FULL AND EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS. WE WANT THIS REFERENDUM TO PUT THE TREATY ROB LEOTA STOOD AS A UNITING DOCUMENT TO PUT THE TREATY AS OUR UNITING DOCUMENT. UNDER THE MICROSCOPE. THIS IS JUST A FAIRYTALE HE IS TALKING ABOUT. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRAMPLING THE MANA OF THE TREATY. IT WAS AN AGREEMENT TO GOVERN OVER THEIR OWN PEOPLE, AND TO BE TREATED AS EQUALS. THAT IS THE BASIS. WHAT IS THIS ABOUT A RIGHT OF REPLY? 17 MAORI AND COMMUNITY LEADERS HAVE CALLED OUT RACE MEETING IN THIS ELECTION. THEY NOTED THE LANGUAGE FROM YOUR CANDIDATE, WHO TALKED ABOUT THE VIRUS OF CO-GOVERNANCE, AND SAID ELITE MAORI SHOULD BE BURIED. DO SUPPORT THAT LANGUAGE? HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE DISEASE OF SEPARATISM AND RACISM IN OUR DEMOCRACY. I STAND BEHIND HIM 100%. I HAVE BEEN PACKING THE HALLS. I BEGAN MY LIFE WORKING FOR MAORI, AND I HAVE A LONG PERFORMANCE. WE WENT BACK TO 1 OF THE SIGNATORIES. HE DESCRIBES HIMSELF AS APOLITICAL, AND SAYS THE COMMENTS INCENSED HIM. LIBERAL DEMOCRACY AND UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS, THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THAT THE ORDINARY PERSON GETS AHEAD AND HAS A SHOT AT LIFE. IF WE TAKE THAT AWAY, IT GETS HARDER FOR THE MOST DISADVANTAGED. ON THE SUBJECT OF THESE LEADERS, WHAT IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE EVER SAID THAT IS RACIST, SHE SAID I LOOK AT THE SHAPE OF HIS MOUTH. WE NEED A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD OF HEALTHY DEBATE ABOUT OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FUTURE WITHOUT THE DIVISION WE CURRENTLY HAVE. SOME OF THE THINGS THAT DAVID SAID WORRY ME, BECAUSE IT APPROPRIATES THE LANGUAGE OF DEMOCRACY AND OF UNITY. YOU HAVE HAD YOUR GO, DAVID. I HAVEN'T HAD A WORD IN. WHAT ARE YOU ENVIOUS OF? HE IS SUGGESTING YOU HAVE A MAJORITY... RAWIRI IS COMPLETELY RIGHT. HE IS APPROPRIATING THE LANGUAGE OF DEMOCRACY AND UNITY TO DESCRIBE AN ASSIMILATIONIST POLICY. TO SAY TO MAORI, THAT IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS. DAVID... DURING THE VACCINE ROLL OUT, THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM WAS NOT GETTING VACCINATION RATES UP AGAINST MAORI UNTIL IT STARTED WORKING WITH MAORI ORGANISATIONS ON THE GROUND. AT THAT POINT, IT WENT UP. I DON'T SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITHOUT. THE FOLKS AT HOME, ARE MORE WORRIED ABOUT PAYING RENT AND BILLS. WE ARE GOING TO GET TO THOSE SHORTLY. COMING UP ` WE ASK THESE LEADERS HOW THEY PLAN TO MAKE AOTEAROA SAFER. TENA KOUTOU ` WELCOME BACK TO TVNZ'S MULTI-PARTY DEBATE. LET'S TALK LAW AND ORDER. DAVID SEYMOUR, WHAT CAUSES CRIME? ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE TAKING ACTIONS THEY SHOULDN'T. THE OTHER DAY I WAS ASKED COULD YOU TELL ME ONE COUNTRY WHERE LOCKING PEOPLE UP STOP CRIME> I SAID, SURE. NEW ZEALAND UP UNTIL THESE GUYS PUT LABOUR IN GOVERNMENT AND STARTED LETTING PEOPLE OUT. WE HAVE HAD THIS EXPERIMENT OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS TRYING TO BE KIND TO THEM HOPING THEY WILL BE KIND BACK, REACHING THE TARGET OF REDUCING THE PRISON POPULATION. IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE CAUSE AND THE PROBLEM THEN THE SOLUTION IS TO RUN ON THE OTHER DIRECTION. IT IS ABOUT LOCKING PEOPLE UP AND REHABILITATING THEM ONCE THEY ARE IN JAIL. POVERTY CAUSES CRIME. I AM WITH RAWIRI. CRIMINAL INTENT CAUSES CRIME. WHAT BEYOND THAT? EXCUSE ME. I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A VERY POOR PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WERE VERY POOR AND THEY NEVER COMMITTED CRIME. THEY HAD A SENSE OF CITIZENRY AND A SENSE OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES. WITH FREEDOM CAME AS POSSIBILITIES AND THEY DID NOT COMMIT CRIME LIKE THAT AT ALL. LET'S CONSIDER THE FINDINGS OF THE DUNEDIN STUDY. THEY WERE ABLE TO SHOW THAT MORE THAN 80% OF COMMITTAL CONVICTIONS CAME FROM A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO TENDED TO HAVE GROWN UP IN MORE SOCIO-ECONOMICALLY DEPRIVED ENVIRONMENTS. DAVID, WHY DO POOR PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIME? THEY DON'T HAVE LITERACY. IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN PRISON AND WANT TO GET OUT EARLY, YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO GET A DRIVERS LICENSE, LEARN TO READ. OVER HALF OF THEM ARE ILLITERATE AND 70% ARE BACK INSIDE AFTER FOUR YEARS. THERE IS A CONNECTION THERE. THAT IS WHY WE SAY THAT WE NEED TO TURN PRISONS FROM BEING UNIVERSITIES OF CRIME TO PRIMARY SCHOOLS OF BASIC LITERACY, NUMERACY AND WORK SKILLS SO THAT PEOPLE HAVE A CHANCE. THE FACT IS THAT WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE A GOOD REASON, PEOPLE COMMITTING CRIME IS UNFAIR ON THE VICTIMS. THE WHOLE DEBATE SO FAR IS ABOUT THE COMMITTAL. I AM INTERESTED IN THE PEOPLE AT THE DAIRY... RAWIRI, YOU WANT TO ABOLISH PRISONS BY 2040. OUR PRISON POPULATION HAS DROPPED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. OVER THAT PERIOD, HAVE WE BECOME SAFER? TO PROBE AND POPULATION HASN'T DROPPED. STILL 50%, BUT IN TERMS OF TOTAL NUMBERS, IT HAS SUBSTANTIALLY DROPPED. I AM ASKING ABOUT ALL PRISONERS. THE NUMBER OF PRISONERS OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS HAS SUBSTANTIALLY DROPPED. AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE PRISON POPULATION, NO, BUT THE NUMBER OF PRISONERS HAS DROPPED. I WAS SAFER? IT HAS DROPPED FOR NON-MAORI. WE NEED A PRISON SYSTEM THAT LOOKS AT REHABILITATION, REINTEGRATION AND RECIDIVISM. THAT WORKS OVERSEAS. YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO BE SENT TO PRISON FIRST. YOU A NEW ZEALAND FIRST` I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SAY ANYTHING. DAVID, I AM STARTING TO REALISE THE PEOPLE WHO CAN TOLERATE YOU OTHER REAL HEROES HERE. (LAUGHTER) HAS NEW ZEALAND BECOME A SAFER PLACE OVER THE SAME PERIOD`? I DO WANT TO START WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF CRIME. THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED AND YOU DESERVE JUSTICE. I GOT BEATEN UP ON THE WAY TO WORK A FEW YEARS AGO, SO I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE. AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW FROM 200 YEARS OF HISTORY THAT LOCKING THEM UP AND THROWING THEM AWAY DOES NOT WORK. WE NEED TO DO A MUCH BETTER JOB AS A SOCIETY OF ENSURING YOUNG PEOPLE DO HAVE A STAKE IN THEIR COMMUNITY AND THEY FEEL ACCOUNTABLE TO THE COMMUNITY AND THAT THEY HAVE HOPE. THAT IS HOW YOU PREVENT CRIME, NOT BY THROWING THEM IN PRISON AND TURNING THEM INTO HARDENED CRIMINALS. BOTH YOU AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST HAVE BIG POLICIES TO CRACK DOWN ON GANGS. WHY IS YOURS BETTER THAN THEIRS? OURS IS BASED ON ECONOMICS. THE FACTORS AS LONG AS IT IS PROFITABLE TO SELL METH, THERE IS GOING TO BE SOMEBODY WHO WILL DO IT. IT IS SAD BUT TRUE. WE SAY IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF A GANG SELLING ILLEGAL DRUGS, IT IS OPEN SEASON ON YOUR ASSETS. WE WANT TO TAX THEM SO IT IS NOT PROFITABLE SO ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T GO UP LOOKING AT THE MOTORCYCLES THINKING THEIR BEST PROSPECT AS BEING A MOB MEMBER. WESTERN PETER, WHY IS YOURS BETTER? THEIR POLICY SAW THE FOLLOWING ` FROZE THE POLICE BUDGET, SHUTDOWN 30 STATIONS; THEY ALSO DIMINISHED THE NUMBER OF FRONT LINE... THEY CHANGED IT TO A FISHING POLICY CALLED CATCH AND RELEASE, AND WE FOUND AND TRAINED MORE POLICE. WHY IS IT BETTER THAN ACT? I AM NOT THERE NOW. THAT IS WHY` YOU HAVE A POLICY. YOU SHOULD GET SOME LONG TROUSERS AND BEHAVE YOURSELF. MR LAXON WAS SPEAKING TO ABOUT THAT AS WELL, SO GET READY. WE WILL SEND YOU A CARD. THE REASON WHY THIS IS HAPPENING IS THAT WE HAVE FOR FAR TOO LONG NOT ENSURED THAT CRIME HAS CONSEQUENCES. WHICH PARTY REPRESENTED HERE WILL BE THE TOUGHEST ON WHITE COLLAR CRIME? TE PATI MAORI. REMEMBER THE WIND BOX ENQUIRY? ONLY ONE PARTY ABLE DO THAT. ONLY PARTY THAT HAS A POLICY THAT WILL GO AFTER IT, IN TERMS OF THE $7 BILLION IT IS WORTH. EVERYBODY ELSE THERE, NONE OF THEM HAS GOT. IT IS IN OUR MANIFESTO. ACTUALLY, WE SPEND AS MUCH RESOURCES CHASING AFTER PEOPLE WHO ARE BENEFIT FRAUDS AS WE DO... BENEFIT FRAUD ACCOUNTS FOR 3.3% OF REVENUE THAT WHITE COLLAR CRIME DOES. $7 BILLION OF EXTRA TAX REVENUE AND NO FINANCE MINISTER THOUGHT I WOULD LIKE ANOTHER $7 BILLION... THEY ARE ALL GOING TO TALK ABOUT` WINSTON PETERS. THEY ARE ALL GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO, BUT IT IS NOT BASED ON THEIR REPUTATION. WE WENT OUT DURING THE WIND BOX ENQUIRY AND STILL ONE AFTER 4 1/2 YEARS, ALL THE WAY TO THE PRIVY COUNCIL. THAT IS OUR RECORD. HE HAS BEEN THERE 40 YEARS AND STILL NOTHING DONE. WE'VE GOT AN AGING POPULATION; WE DIVE INTO A SUPER DISCUSSION NEXT. FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, MORE THAN A MILLION NEW ZEALANDERS WILL BE OVER 65 ` AND WITH THAT GROWTH COMES A STEADILY INCREASING SUPERANNUATION BILL. SO SHOULD WE RAISE THE PENSION AGE? I WOULD'VE SAID A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, 'NO, MOVE IT UP.' I WOULDN'T HAVE HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT. BUT I THINK OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, I'VE SORT OF HAD ENOUGH, SO I'D BE READY TO RETIRE AT 65, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I'M ON MY PENSION NOW, TRUE, BUT I THINK IT'S ONLY FAIR IT MOVES UP SLOWLY. YEAH. LIKE AUSTRALIA DID. THE PENSION'S THERE TO, LIKE, HELP OUR ELDERS, AND, LIKE, MY... IN PARTICULAR, MYSELF, MY GRANDPARENTS HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING. I THINK 65'S GOOD. I THINK YOU'VE DONE YOUR TIME BY THEN. I THINK 65'S TOO LOW. LIKE, I'M 50 MYSELF, AND... DOESN'T SEEM TOO FAR AWAY. I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE THAT NEED TO RETIRE AT 65, BUT I'D SAY THE MAJORITY, IF THEY CAN WORK, WOULD WANT TO CARRY ON WORKING. I'VE GOT A FEW AUNTIES AND STUFF AND THEY DO HAVE CANCER, BUT THEY WORK THEIR` THEY WORK THEIR BOTTOMS OFF TO THE MAX, AND, LIKE, THEY TRY THEIR HARDEST, MAN. BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WON'T EVEN MAKE IT TO THAT AGE BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN GET THE PENSION. WINSTON PETERS, I WANT TO START WITH YOU. YOU CAMPAIGN ON BEING LIVING THRIVING PROOF THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF WORKING BEYOND 65. OF COURSE, BUT THE REALITY IS IN EVERY ECONOMIC CRISIS OF THE PAST, OTHER PARTIES OVER THE YOUNG AND ELDERLY. IT IS EASILY AFFORDABLE, THESE PARTIES WILL THREATEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED ALL THEIR LIVES. THEY ARE SAYING, YOU NEED TO GO FOR ANOTHER TWO YEARS. THE REAL FACT OF THE MATTER IS IN OUR SOCIETY, MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THEY DESERVE TO RETIRE. YOU WANT TO RAISE THE AGE OF SUPER. WE WANT TO RAISE IT GRADUALLY SO PEOPLE HAVE TIME TO ADJUST, AND SO PEOPLE CAN TAKE THEIR KIWISAVER TO HAVE FLEXIBILITY. YOU ASK WHY ` I AM WORRIED ABOUT HOW WE MAKE SURE THIS COUNTRY HAS THE CAPACITY TO LOOK AFTER PEOPLE AS THEY AGE. SUPERANNUATION IS ONE ISSUE. THERE IS ALSO AGED CARE, HEALTH CARE. WINSTON SAYS IT IS 5.4% OF GDP, SUPERANNUATION, , GIVE IT ANOTHER FIVE OR SIX YEARS, IT HAD 30 BILLION THE SAME AS HEALTHCARE, PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER, HAVING FEWER KIDS, AND THAT IS WHY BRITAIN AND AMERICA, IRELAND, ITALY, TAIWAN, SPAIN, THEY ARE MAKING THE SAME ADJUSTMENT AS AUSTRALIA. RAWIRI WAITITI, YOU WANT TO LOWER THE AGE OF SUPERANNUATION FOR MAORI. MAORI DIE 7 TO 10 YEARS EARLIER THAN EVERYONE ELSE. IT SHOULD RAISE AS WE ARE ABLE TO CLOSE HEALTH INEQUITIES, STOP MCMURRAY FROM DYING EARLIER. STOP MAORI FROM DYING EARLIER. THE LABOURERS IN THIS COUNTRY WORK HARD, BUT DON'T SEE THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOUR. WE ARE AN AGEING POPULATION THEN WHEN WE SET THE SUPERANNUATION AGE AT 65. WE WOULD LEAVE AT THE SAME, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO NEEDED THE MOST, AS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED, ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHORTER LIFE EXPECTANCY ON AVERAGE. IF YOU DO WHAT DAVID IS PROPOSING, WHICH IS ALLOWING PEOPLE WHO HAVE KIWISAVER TO OPEN THOSE ACCOUNTS AT 65, FOR THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE KIWISAVER, WHICH IS THE 25% LOWEST INCOME IN THE COUNTRY, THEY WON'T HAVE ANY SUPPORT, AND ARE ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHORTER LIFE EXPECTANCY. WINSTON PETERS, YOUR WEBSITE UNTIL 7 O'CLOCK TONIGHT LISTED MANY POLICIES, AND DID NOT MENTION IMMIGRATION. THE REALITY IS, AND I THINK YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT AGAIN, WHAT IS YOUR POLICY ON IMMIGRATION? I HAVE MADE COUNTLESS BEACHES AROUND THIS COUNTRY. COUNTLESS SPEECHES AROUND THIS COUNTRY. WE HAVE NO INFRASTRUCTURE IN AUCKLAND. I AM SAYING TO PEOPLE AROUND THIS COUNTRY, WE NEED CRITICAL IMMIGRATION FOR THE GAPS WE HAVE. WE NEED DOCTORS, NURSES, AND MIDWIVES, SPECIALISTS. THOSE ARE OUR PRIORITIES. WE FILL THESE GAPS RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DYING. LONG TERM, OUR PLAN IS TO HAVE A IMMIGRATION POLICY WHERE PEOPLE GET TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT. THIS IS ENSURING... I DON'T KNOW ABOUT SOME OF THESE IMMIGRATION SETTINGS, OUR IDEA IS VERY SIMILAR IN TERMS OF, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSES, THERE ARE 100,000 HOMELESS IN THIS COUNTRY. ARE WE BRINGING INTO MANY MIGRANTS? THERE ARE IS GOING TO BE HUGE IMPACTS ON OUR OWN PEOPLE. WITH THAT IN MIND, WE BRINGING IN TOO MANY MIGRANTS? BUILD THE HOMES AND INFRASTRUCTURE, BUILDING HOSPITALS AND ROADS SO WE CAN ENSURE WE CAN HAVE THEM. WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE AN HOUR IN AGGRESSION SETTINGS? *IN OUR IMMIGRATION SETTINGS WE NEED PEOPLE TO PAY TAX TO FUND THOSE DOCTORS. IF WE WANT TO AFFORD HOUSES, EDUCATION WE WANT, NEW ZEALAND COMPANIES NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET IN SKILLED WORKERS. A RARE AGREEMENT WITH RAWIRI WAITITI, IT IS CRITICAL WE GET MORE HOMES BUILT. WE HAVE BANNED OURSELVES FROM BUILDING HOMES, WE ARE 50,000 SHORT, AND UNTIL WE FIX THAT, IMMIGRATION WILL ALWAYS BE A TENSION IT WILL HOLD BACK THE GROWTH OF OUR ECONOMY. CAN WE GUARANTEE MIGRANTS WILL GET A FAIR DEAL? IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF IMMIGRANTS THAT WE HAVE NOT BUILT ENOUGH HOUSES. THE POPULATION... DAVID, REALLY? THE PROBLEM WE HAVE HERE IS THAT THE POPULATION CONTINUES TO INCREASE AND IN THE FIVE DECADES I HAVE BEEN ALIVE, IT HAS DOUBLED. IN THAT TIME, WE HAVE UNDERSPENT IN EVERY CATEGORY OF INFRASTRUCTURE. WE HAVE NOT GOT ENOUGH SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE. WE HAVEN'T BUILT HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, HOMES. THAT IS NOT THE FAULT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO OUR SOCIETY. WE SHOULD NOT TRY AND LIMIT THOSE PEOPLE'S ASPIRATIONS BASED ON THE FAULT OF THIS COUNTRY. EVERYBODY NEEDS A HOME, AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE TO DO BOTH. YOU HAD TO FIX THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ACT, FUND INFRASTRUCTURE PROPERLY, AND MAKE IT EASIER TO GET PERMISSION TO BUILD HOMES. YOU HAVE 95,000 EMPTY HOUSES HERE. AND OWNED BY FOREIGN OWNERS, THEY IMMIGRANTS AS WELL? WE NEED TO RELEASE THOSE 95,000 HOMES. VERY QUICKLY, BEFORE THE BREAK, ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT YOUR POLITICAL PASTS. IN THE HISTORY OF MMP, HAVE YOU VOTED FOR A PARTY THAT IS NOT THE ONE YOU REPRESENT? ABSOLUTELY. WHO DID YOU VOTE FOR? I WILL EITHER TO MYSELF, BUT I WON'T AGAIN. IT IS A SECRET BALLOT. I AM HAPPY AND PROUD TO SAY I BOYS GIVEN MY PARTY BOAT TO ACT, BUT I GIVEN I CAN DEVOTE TO ANOTHER. I HAVE ONLY EVER VOTED FOR THE GREEN PARTY. DON'T GO ANYWHERE ` COMING UP, WE'RE TALKING THE COST OF LIVING. HEAPS OF YOU ARE SHORT ON CASH, SO KEEP WATCHING TO SEE WHO HAS THE BEST PLAN FOR GETTING US BACK IN THE BLACK. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. WE'RE TURNING OUR ATTENTION TO COST OF LIVING, BECAUSE FOR MOST OF YOU, THRIVING IS A DREAM; THE REALITY IS YOU'RE BARELY SURVIVING. LET'S HAVE A QUICK SHOW OF HANDS ` DOES ANYBODY HERE THINK NATIONAL TAX PLAN IS CREDIBLE? (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE) DOES ANYONE HERE THINK THAT LABOUR IS PLANNED TO REMOVE THE GST FRUIT AND VEGETABLES IS CREDIBLE? WINSTON PETERS, ISN'T THAT YOUR POLICY? IT IS NOT IN OUR MANIFESTO. CHECK IT OUT. YOUR WEBSITE FOR THE 2023 ELECTION ` ' WE WILL TAKE GST OFFER BASIC FOODS INCLUDING...' HAS THAT CHANGED? THAT IS NOT OUR POLICY. WE SAID THE SUPERMARKET JEWEL PULLEY WOULD TAKE THE PROFITS AND IT WOULD NOT GET TO THE PEOPLE. * DUOPOLY. IT IS ON YOUR WEBSITE. RAWIRI, IT IS ALSO YOUR POLICY. CAN I FINISH? NO.. YOU HAVE LABOUR TALKING ABOUT BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES, BUT THAT IS NOT PART OF THAT GST TAX POLICY. GIVE OUR PEOPLE SOME INTEGRITY AND SOME MANA. GIVE THEM A DECENT SHOT IN LIFE AND ENSURING WE TAKE GST OFF KAI. YOU BREAK THE DUOPOLY, ALLOW US TO START OUR OWN... WHAT ONE POLICY OF NEW ZEALAND FIRST WOULD MAKE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE? WE WANT A FULL INVESTIGATION AS TO... WE ARE RESERVING OUR JUDGEMENT NOW. ACT WOULD LIKE TO SEE TAX DECLINE OVER TIME, BUT THERE ARE MORE URGENT ISSUES, INCLUDING THE AMOUNT OF GOVERNMENT WASTE. WE ARE PROMISING OUR TEAM WILL GET IN AND FIGHT TO PROTECT YOUR MONEY JUST AS HARD AS YOU FOUGHT TO EARN IT. GOVERNMENT WASTE ALSO DRIVES INFLATION AND INTEREST RATES, AND WHAT I HEAR FROM PEOPLE IS THAT THEY ARE HAVING TO CANCEL SWIMMING LESSONS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PLAY THE MORTGAGE AND EVERYTHING THEY BUY IS SO EXPENSIVE BECAUSE OF INFLATION. WHAT IS YOUR ONE POLICY THAT WOULD MAKE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE? WE KNOW PEOPLE ARE FEELING THE PINCH NOW, AND THAT IS WHY THE CENTREPIECE OF OUR CAMPAIGN AS AN INCOME GUARANTEE WHICH WOULD SEE PEOPLE PAYING LESS INCOME TAX THAN THEY DO AT THE MOMENT. THAT WOULD MEAN THEY WOULD HAVE MORE MONEY IN THE POCKET FOR GROCERIES, RENT AND POWER BILL. THAT CAN ALL BE PAID FOR WITH A FAIRER TAX SYSTEM LIKE THEY DO IN EVERY OTHER COUNTRY WE COMPARE OURSELVES TO. SO YOU WILL PAY FOR THAT TAX TO WELATHY NZERS? AUSTRALIA ALREADY HAS A CAPITAL GAINS TAX. WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY AMONGST THE WEALTHY COUNTRIES THAT WE COMPARE OURSELVES TO THAT DOESN'T HAVE EITHER A WEALTH TAX OR A CAPITAL GAINS TAX OR A STAMP DUTY OR INHERITANCE TAXES OR SOME COMBINATION OF ALL. THEY WANT TO PUT A ONE AND 1/2% TAX ON EVERY ASSET IN A TRUST. IF YOU PUT YOUR HOUSE IN A TRUST TO PROTECT IT OR BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT ONE OF YOUR KIDS TO GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP DISPUTE, THEN YOU... THEY ARE GOING AFTER ALL WEALTH. LET'S HAVE SOME BALANCE. THE SUPERMARKETS NEED A SERIOUS INVESTIGATION. THEY ARE MAKING A 90% PROFIT ON THE LAST YEAR WHEN INFLATION WAS AT ONE THIRD OF THAT. WE NEED A SERIOUS INVESTIGATION INTO BACKING CHARGES IN THIS COUNTRY AS WELL. BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF, AND THAT IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO AND THE NEXT... THOSE EARNING UNDER $30,000, IT WILL MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE. YOU CAN'T GIVE THESE PEOPLE, THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY AND THEN TAX THEM AFTERWARDS. IF WE ARE PAYING 33%, TRUSTS SHOULD BE PAYING 33%. IT MAKES SENSE AND IT IS FAIR. THIS IS THE MOST TRANSFORMATIVE POLICY YOU WILL FIND ACROSS THIS WHOLE TABLE. TO PAY FOR YOUR TAX CUTS, YOU WANT TO CUT THOUSANDS OF JOBS, INCLUDING MINISTRIES. HOW WILL THAT AFFECT SERVICES? IT WON'T AFFECT THEM AT ALL. WE WON'T CUT A SINGLE NURSE, DOCTOR, PRISON OFFICER... WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE SAME LEVEL` 15,000, WHICH IS... THAT GETS US BACK TO THE SAME LEVEL` SWIMMING INSTRUCTORS ARE EXEMPT. THAT GETS US BACK TO THE SAME NUMBER OF BUREAUCRATS AS IN 2017. DO YOU MEET ANYBODY IN BUSINESS WHO THINKS IT HAS GOTTEN EASIER TO DO BUSINESS WITH ALL THOSE EXTRA BUREAUCRATS? HE SPOKE` HE IS GOING TO CUT THE ECONOMY... 35 BILLION` YOU HAVE HAD YOUR CHANCE. HUSH UP FOR A WHILE. AND I WILL HAVE MANY MORE. 35 BILLION WHAT WILL YOU TAKE OUT OF THE ECONOMY? STRAIGHT TO A MASSIVE RECESSION. THERE WILL BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WITHOUT WORK. IN 30 YEARS ACT HAS NEVER HAD A MINISTER INSIDE A CABINET. THAT EXPLAINS IT. STICK AROUND; AFTER THE BREAK, EVERYONE'S FAVOURITE NIGHT ` POTLUCK. KIA ORA, E TE IWI ` WELCOME BACK. WE'VE LOOKED AT ALL THE MEATY ISSUES TONIGHT, SO BEFORE WE FINISH UP ` YOU'VE BEEN WARNED ` WE'RE HAVING A POTLUCK ROUND. I WANT TO START WITH EDUCATION. IF NEW ZEALAND IS TO BE THE LUCKY COUNTRY, WE NEED TO IMPROVE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES. IF YOU ARE PART OF THE NEXT CABINET, WHAT IS THE TOP THING YOU DO TO ADVOCATE FOR BETTER EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES. IT IS TO ESTABLISH A MAORI EDUCATIONAL AUTHORITY. FIRST THING WE WILL DO IS STOP THE INDOCTRINATION AND GO BACK TO EDUCATION OF THE BASICS. AND NOT SEE 50% OF THE STUDENTS NOT AT SCHOOL ON ANY GIVEN DAY. WE ARE GOING BACK TO WHAT WE USED TO DO. WE WERE NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD. WE WOULD SET HIGHER STANDARDS FOR ATTENDANCE AND ACHIEVEMENT ACCORDING TO A WORLD-CLASS OUTWARD LOOKING CURRICULUM WHICH PREPARES CHILDREN FOR THE WORLD. WE WOULD STOP THE MICROMANAGEMENT, THE MODERN LEARNING ENVIRONMENT, CONNECTING TOGETHER THREE CLASSROOMS, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. WE WOULD TRUST THE TEACHING PROFESSION TO TEACH KIDS. WHAT THEY DO TODAY ON ANY GIVEN SCHOOL DAY IS MORE IMPORTANT TO THE LONG-TERM FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY THEN ANY OTHER SINGLE VARIABLE. THE WORKING CONDITIONS OF OUR TEACHERS ARE THE LEARNING CONDITIONS OF OUR CHILDREN. STUDENT-TEACHER RATIOS, TEACHER PAY, ARE CRITICAL. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE KIDS HAVE FOOD IN THEIR BELLIES TO LEARN. WE WOULD EXTEND THE SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAM. SHOULD CHILDREN BE STREAMED BY ABILITY? I THINK THAT IS QUITE ARBITRARY. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THE EVIDENCE DOESN'T SUPPORT IT. IT SHOULD BE UP TO TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS, NOT POLITICIANS. THERE IS TOO MUCH POLITICISATION AND MICROMANAGEMENT BY POLITICIANS. BY EARLY CHOICE, AND MUCH EARLIER THAN OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES, TAIWAN AND GERMANY DID EXACTLY THAT. PRODUCTIVITY OF THESE PEOPLE AT A YOUNGER AGE WENT SPECTACULARLY EXTREME. THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY WOULD MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS A CULTURAL SHIFT IN THE WAY WE DO EDUCATION. IT IS NOT WORKING FOR MAORI. THEY FAIL IN THE PUBLIC SYSTEM, AND ACHIEVE MORE IN A MAORI CENTRIC SYSTEM. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE. I WENT TO A STREAMED PRIMARY SCHOOL AND CAN UNDERSTAND WHY KIDS WHO WERE SMARTER THAN ME WHERE LOWER STREAMS. THEY WERE GIVEN LESS EXPECTATIONS AND LIFE THEN I WAS. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE IN THESE DEBATES THEN WHEN YOU MEANT TO MENTION SOMETHING. GIVE US ONE POLICY YOU WOULD KICK YOURSELF FOR NOT MENTIONING. OUR MANA MOTUHAKE POLICY. IT IS TO ENSURE THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT THE FISCAL SETTINGS OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI SETTLEMENT PROCESS. THE SETTINGS ARE STILL BACK IN 1991. WE WOULD ENSURE THAT YOU HAVE MAORI SEATS, THAT YOU PUT OUR MAORI PEOPLE ONTO THE MAORI ROLL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SETTINGS IN TERMS OF OUR VOTING SYSTEM, WE ARE AT A DISADVANTAGE. THE EXCESSES OF THE COVID-19. THE COST REQUIRES A FULL-SCALE ENQUIRY SO WE DON'T MAKE THOSE MISTAKES AGAIN. THE ENQUIRY I AM TALKING ABOUT IS ALREADY HAPPENING INTERNATIONALLY. WE HAVE A POLICY THAT WOULD HAVE DONE THAT. I HAVE MENTIONED THE POLICIES I WANTED TO MENTION TONIGHT. WE TO STOP WASTE SO WE CAN FIX THE ECONOMY AND GET THE LIVING COSTS DOWN FROM DAY ONE. CONSEQUENCES FOR CRIMINALS, AND RIGHTS FOR INNOCENT PEOPLE. WE NEED TO UNITE THIS COUNTRY. IT WOULD BE CUTTING COSTS OF LIVING WITH FREE DENTAL CARE, PAID FOR BY A FAIRER TAX SYSTEM. ONE LAST QUESTION, I WANT TO THINK ABOUT UNITY. DURING THIS CAMPAIGN, WE HAVE SEEN VERBAL AND ALLEGED PHYSICAL ATTACKS ON POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, IN THE REAL WORLD AND ONLINE. WHAT IS THE DUTY OF POLITICAL LEADERS TO BRING THE TEMPERATURE DOWN, AND TO NOT ENCOURAGE EXTREMISTS, OR TO INCITE ANGER? TO WRAP UP, I WANT TO ASK EACH OF YOU AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU HAVE DONE TO CALM THE WATERS AND ENCOURAGE THE LACE DEBATE. *CIVILISED DEBATE. I TRY NOT TO MAKE THIS PERSONAL, AND I TALK ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY WE HAVE AS POLITICIANS TO ENSURE WE DO NOT USE DEVICE OF LANGUAGE, AND DON'T TRIGGER THAT UNDERBELLY IN OUR SOCIETY WE SEE RACISM AND MISOGYNY. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT IN THIS CAMPAIGN. ACT RELENTLESSLY PUTS OUT POLICY IDEAS TO SOLVE PROBLEMS, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE EMPHASIS ON WHAT POLICY SOLUTIONS MAKE LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE, STREETS SAFER, AND NEW ZEALAND IS MORE UNITED RATHER THAN BICKERING OVER PERSONALITY, I AGREE THERE HAS BEEN TOO MUCH FROM PEOPLE IN THIS CAMPAIGN. WE HAVE CAMPAIGNED MORE SUCCESSFULLY THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE HALLS AROUND THIS COUNTRY. TOWN PEOPLE DO NOT PUT UP WITH RACISM. WE ARE NOT GOING TO RAT ON OUR OTHER DNA, WHICH MAY BE EUROPEAN, CHINESE, ANY OTHER. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT MAORI HAVE SUPERIOR DNA. THAT IS RACISM, WE WILL NOT HESITATE TO CALL IT OUT. ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO BE PART OF THEIR WHAKAPAPA IS NOT RACISM. SOCIAL THEORY IS USING WORDS LIKE SUBHUMAN, APARTHEID, SEPARATISM, SEGREGATION, RACIST. THOSE ARE THE WORDS THAT ARE IN BOLDING THAT BEHAVIOUR. IT HAPPENED TO 1 OF OUR CANDIDATES JUST YESTERDAY. WE WILL NOT TOLERATE IT. TE PATI MAORI HAS NOT USED THAT LANGUAGE. WE NEED TO STOP THEM FROM DOING IT. GOOD LUCK FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE CAMPAIGN. KUA MUTU. THAT ENDS THIS YEAR'S TVNZ MULTI-PARTY DEBATE. DAVID SEYMOUR, WINSTON PETERS, JAMES SHAW AND RAWIRI WAITITI ` NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME, AND GOOD LUCK WITH THE REST OF THE CAMPAIGN. POLLS ARE OPEN, OF COURSE; MAKE SURE YOU CAST YOUR VOTE. SO, WHO HIT ALL THE RIGHT NOTES TONIGHT? HERE TO MULL THAT OVER IS POLITICAL EDITOR JESSICA MUTCH McKAY. AND PLENTY TO DISCUSS, JESS? YES, THERE SURE IS ` AND TO HELP ME DO THAT IT WAS INTERESTING TO HEAR FROM THE LEADERS. ` AND TO HELP ME DO THAT IS A SPECIALIST PANEL OF POLITICAL INSIDERS. THEY'LL BE WITH ME AFTER THE BREAK WITH THEIR ANALYSIS. WELCOME BACK TO THE POST-MATCH ANALYSIS OF OUR MULTI-PARTY DEBATE. JOINING ME WITH THEIR HOT TAKES ARE FORMER LABOUR MP KRIS FAAFOI, FORMER NATIONAL PARTY PRESS SECRETARY JANET WILSON AND JOURNALIST GUYON ESPINER. THEY HAD A LOT TO TALK ABOUT TODAY, AND THERE WAS A LOT TO WATCH. A LOT TO HAVE A CHAT ABOUT. GUYON, WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS? I THINK ALL THE LEADERS STUCK TO THEIR LANES. WINSTON PETERS SEEMED TO BE APPEALING TO AN OLDER CROWD. TOOK US ON A HISTORY OF THE 20TH CENTURY. I THINK WE HAD THE WINE BOX. HE STUCK TO THAT. DAVID SEYMOUR BROUGHT UP ANTI CO-GOVERNANCE AT EVERY LEVEL. RAWIRI WAITITI VERY STRONG ON INDIGENOUS ISSUES. THE ONE THAT INTERESTED ME WAS JAMES. WE SAW A SALTY GREEN. HE WAS PAYING OUT DAVID SEYMOUR. HE PLAYED THE SORT OF ANGRY JAMES SHAW, PAYING OUT DAVID SEYMOUR. HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE, YOU ARE ALLOWED TO MAKE INSULTS BUT YOU ARE ABUSING THE PRIVILEGE. THE INTERESTING THING FOR ME IS STRATEGICALLY... IT SEEMED LIKE HE WAS FISHING AND THE LABOUR POOL. WITH JACK'S LAST QUESTION, DITTY TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE? NO. COST OF LIVING, QUITE CENTRIST. I THINK EVERYBODY HAS A CONSTITUENCY HERE. THESE PARTIES AND OTHER ELECTORS MIGHT HAVE BEEN MAKING SURE THEY STAY ALIVE; ON THE CURRENT POLLING THEY ARE ALL THERE. THEY HAVE GOT CONSTITUENCIES TO TALK TO. I THINK THEY HAD PEOPLE TO TALK TO TONIGHT AND THEY PRETTY MUCH DID THAT. THE ENTERTAINMENT WAS DOWN THE CENTRE. *THIS END. EVERYBODY WAS A BIT SAFER TONIGHT THAN THEY TEND TO BE. WINSTON PETERS, I HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF INTERVIEWS WITH HIM THAT ARE QUITE FIERY... INCLUDING JACK TAME LAST WEEK. EXPECTING HIM TO POTENTIALLY BE AN AGITATOR, BUT I THINK EVERYBODY WAS STICKING TO THE NETTING. I THOUGHT THEY WERE SLOW OUT OF THE BLOCKS. JAMES SHAW HAD AN ITCH AND HIS NAME WAS DAVID SEYMOUR. IT WAS QUITE PLEASANT TO SEE THE NORMALLY MILD MANAGE JAMES FIRE UP. AND DO IT IN SOME STYLE. I THOUGHT RAWIRI WAITITI SPOKE TO HIS AUDIENCE EXTREMELY WELL. I THOUGHT WINSTON WAS SLOW. HE DIDN'T REALLY FIRE UP IN TILL WE GOT HALFWAY THROUGH AND WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE TREATY. ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS WAS WE GOT TO SEE WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR SIDE-BY-SIDE FOR THE FIRST TIME. AND WE GOT TO SEE HOW THEY INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER, RESPONDING TO EACH OTHER IN REAL TIME. GIVEN THAT THEY MAY HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER, DO WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR TRUST EACH OTHER? HERE IS WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY. WELL, THE PROBLEM IS I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE STANDS ON ALMOST ANY ISSUE. HE SAID HE'D STICK UP FOR LICENSED FIREARM OWNERS; SOLD THEM DOWN THE RIVER. SAID HE'D STAND UP FOR FARMERS; VOTED FOR JAMES SHAW'S ZERO-CARBON ACT. SAID HE'D STOP CO-GOVERNMENT, BUT HE PUAPUA WAS DREAMT UP UNDER HIS NOSE; EVEN AS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER... THIS IS RUBBISH. ...HE COULDN'T STOP IT. AND THEN HE` THAT'S NONSENSE. DO YOU TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR? IT'S NOT MY JOB TO TRUST DAVID SEYMOUR. IT'S MY JOB` WELL, IT IS IF YOU'RE IN GOVERNMENT WITH HIM. IT'S MY JOB TO CONVINCE MY CAUCUS COLLEAGUES, WHO WILL MAKE THE DECISION ` NOT JUST ME ` AND EVERYBODY THAT VOTES FOR MY PARTY THAT THIS IS THE THING WE MUST DO. JAMES` NOW, YOU'VE GOT TO ESTABLISH TRUST, AND THIS IS NOT A VERY GOOD START NOW. IF CHRISTOPHER LUXON WAS WATCHING, HAS THAT HELPED HIM? I THINK HE SHOULD BE VERY WORRIED. HE SHOULD BE THINKING, I HAVE GOT A PROBLEM, IF HE HASN'T ALREADY. I THINK THEIR ANTIPATHY WAS THERE FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE. INTERESTINGLY, THEIR POLICIES ` WHAT WE COULD DISCERN THAT WINSTON ACTUALLY HAD ` WHATEVER THEY WERE ` WERE REMARKABLY SIMILAR. SO THEY SHOULDN'T BE, PHILOSOPHICALLY, AGAINST EACH OTHER, BUT THERE YOU GO. DID THEY LOOK LIKE PROBLEM CHILDREN FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON? YOU CAN SEE WHY HE HAS PULLED JOHN KEY OFF THE GOLF COURSE TO TRY TO SAY, DON'T PUT CHRISTOPHER LUXON IN THIS POSITION. WHEN YOU ARE A WEEK OUT FROM AN ELECTION... DAVID SEYMOUR` I DON'T THINK WE QUITE SORE IN THAT CLIP, BUT HE DID SAY HE DIDN'T TRUST HIM, SO THAT ISN'T A GREAT POSITION TO BE GOING INTO, IF IT IS GOING TO BE A THREE-WAY HANDSHAKE. IN TERMS OF THE PERFORMANCE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, IT WAS PROBABLY JAMES SHAW THAT REALLY HAD SOME OF THE FUND MOMENTS. I LIKED YOUR LINE ABOUT THE ITCH. SO A COUPLE OF ONE-LINERS BETWEEN JAMES SHAW AND DAVID SEYMOUR. LET'S TAKE A LESSON. BUT BACK TO THE QUESTION. WHAT IS YOUR ONE POLICY? FINISH IT OFF. I'M SORRY. IF YOU'RE GOING TO MISREPRESENT... THE SINGLE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICY` ...MY POLICIES THAT` DAVID, REMEMBER WHEN I ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION? YEAH, ACTUALLY` NEITHER DO I. AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH JAMES SHAW AND THE GREENS. ACTUALLY, I CALL HIM JAMES 'OFF-SHAW' COS HE SPENT MORE TIME IN OTHER COUNTRIES TALKING TO FOREIGNERS THAN HELPING PEOPLE HERE. DAVID, EVERYONE'S ENTITLED TO SAY SOMETHING STUPID ONCE IN A WHILE, BUT YOU ARE REALLY ABUSING THE PRIVILEGE. WELL, YOU'RE OVER YOUR QUOTA, MATE. OK. GO ` VERY QUICKLY, PLEASE. I WAS WAITING FOR... OH, DAVID, YOU KNOW, I'M STARTING TO REALISE THAT THE PEOPLE WHO CAN TOLERATE YOU ARE THE REAL HEROES HERE. YOU KNOW THAT? (LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE) APART FROM GIVING US LAUGHTER, DOES THAT HELP VOTERS? DO THEY GET ENTERTAINMENT OUT OF THAT? WHAT YOU THINK? I THINK IT HELPS WITH JAMES. HAVING DAVID SEYMOUR NEXT AND PROBABLY HELPED HIM, GAVE HIM THE ABILITY TO SHOW HIS OWN PERSONALITY. HE IS REALLY GOOD ON POLICY, BUT WE SAW A DIFFERENT SIDE OF HIM TONIGHT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE IT BACK. TO SEE IT IN A DEBATE LIKE THIS I THINK IS QUITE GOOD. I THINK AGAIN, THEY ARE 13% IN YOUR POLL; THEY WANT MORE. THAT HAS TO COME FROM SOMEWHERE. HE WAS GOING AFTER THE PARTIES;' VOTE. AT THE MOMENT, HE WOULD BRING AND 17 MPS, SO THAT IS A BIG CHUNK OF PEOPLE. DO YOU SEE HIM AS THE STAR PERFORMER? DEFINITELY. HE WAS ON FIRE TONIGHT. I THINK HE FOUGHT HIS CORNER IN TERMS OF THE POLICIES THAT THE GREENS HAVE EXTREMELY WELL. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DAVID SEYMOUR NEEDED TO DO WAS REALLY PERFORM. HIS POLLS HAVE NOT BEEN GOING VERY WELL. HE HAS BEEN TRACKING DOWN. HE WAS TENDER YESTERDAY. DO YOU THINK HE WILL HAVE RECRUITED ANY VOTERS? POSSIBLY. NOT A GREAT MANY. I THINK HE STARTED A BIT FLAT, BUT I THINK` NOT TO SAY WHETHER I THINK HE IS ON THE RIGHT TRACK OR NOT, BUT HE IS CLEARLY` THROUGH THE FOCUS GROUPS WORKED OUT THAT HIS ANTI CO-GOVERNANCE MESSAGE IS ONE THAT IS RESONATING, AND HE STUCK TO THAT. HE BOUNCED BACK TO IT ALL THE TIME. HE REALLY DROVE THAT HOME. SO HE WAS TALKING TO HIS BASE. I THINK HE PUT THAT CASE TO THEM STRONGLY. DO YOU THINK THIS DEBATE TONIGHT AROUND CO-GOVERNANCE WILL HAVE HELPED PEOPLE DECIDE OR SHAPE THEIR VOTE? NO. WHY? I THINK WE JUST SAW... THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY AT THE END OF THE DEBATE TO SAY, ACTUALLY, THIS IS SOMETHING SERIOUS WE COULD CONSIDER, BUT I THINK PEOPLE STUCK TO THEIR LANES. IT WAS INTERESTING. JACK TAME INVITED THEM TO UNITY AND IT ENDED IN POSSIBLY THE GREATEST ACRIMONY. AND WINSTON JUST WAITED IN THEIR, INTO THE DIVISIVENESS. *WADED IN THERE. THE QUESTION WAS FRAMED ABOUT HOW ARE YOU STOPPING THE DIVISIVENESS, AND HE JUST SHOWED THAT HE WAS BEING DIVISIVE. AND THEY ARE ALL GOING TO THEIR OWN AUDIENCES. AND WE SAW THAT WITH THE RAWIRI WAITITI. HE STUCK TO THOSE LINES AND HAD SOME REALLY NICE LINES AROUND CO-GOVERNANCE. DO YOU THINK HE WILL HAVE CONVINCED PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR HIM? HE WAS PLAYING TO HIS BASE, BUT HE WAS PLAYING TO A LOT OF THE YOUNG MAORI, AND I THINK HE MAY HAVE GAINED VOTES TONIGHT. MAYBE PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO GO WITH LABOUR WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT HIM. HE REPRESENTS KURA KAUPAPA, THE KIDS, THAT GENERATION. THEY WILL BE LOOKING TOWARDS HIM, BECAUSE THEY SPEAK HIS LANGUAGE. AND YOU HELPED PREPARE THE LAST LEADERS DEBATE THAT WE DID HERE THREE YEARS AGO. DO YOU PREPARE THOSE KINDS OF LINES, OR IS THAT THEY'RE PERFORMING ON STAGE? IT IS A BIT OF BOTH. OF COURSE THEY TRAIN. THE TRICK IS NOT TO LOOK AS IF THEY ARE TRAINED, AND THE TRICK IS TO BE SO FLEXIBLE IN THEIR THINKING THAT THEY CAN COME UP WITH SOME REALLY GOOD LINES IN AND OF THEMSELVES. BEFORE WE GO TO THE FIRST BREAK, I WILL GET YOU TO TALK ABOUT WHO YOU THOUGHT HAD THE STRONGEST PERFORMANCE AND WHO YOU THINK STRUGGLED A BIT TONIGHT. IF WE CAN START WITH YOU? PROBABLY JAMES SHAW HAD THE STRONGEST PERFORMANCE. WHILE WINSTON PETERS DID WARM UP TOWARDS THE END, HE WAS QUITE FLAT-FOOTED FOR QUITE A WHILE, SO HE PROBABLY WAS THE WEAKER PERFORMER FOR ME. I AM GOING TO AGREE. PURE PERFORMANCE, JAMES DID AN EXCELLENT JOB TONIGHT. TAKE AWAY THE POLICY IN TERMS OF THE TV DEBATE ` HE WAS VERY SHARP. THERE WAS AN EXPECTATION AFTER THE Q&A INTERVIEW THAT PETERS WOULD COME OUT AND HAVE A CRACK; I THINK HE TOOK A DIFFERENT APPROACH TONIGHT. I DON'T KNOW WHY. THEY HAVE GOT THEIR OPINIONS ON THAT. I THINK HE TOOK A VERY DIFFERENT APPROACH TONIGHT. I AM NOT SURE IF IT WAS INTENTIONAL, BUT IT WAS DIFFERENT. I WOULD GIVE IT TO RAWIRI, BECAUSE HE SPOKE PASSIONATELY ON THE THINGS THAT THE PARTY CARES ABOUT AND TO HIS BASE. BUT ALSO TO JAMES. AND I AGREE WITH THE GUYS ` WINSTON WAS FLAT-FOOTED. HAD NO POLICY, DIDN'T COME UP WITH ANY NEW IDEAS; HE CLAIMED THAT THE GST ON FOOD WAS NOT PART OF HIS POLICY, BUT I AM PRETTY SURE THAT A LITTLE WHILE THAT I SAW SOMETHING IN TERMS OF HIS MANDATE ACTUALLY SAYING THAT. SO YES. WE WILL TAKE A PAUSE AND COME BACK AFTER THE BREAK. THERE IS STILL A LOT MORE TO DISCUSS. WE WILL SEE YOU SOON. WELCOME BACK. I'M HERE WITH OUR EXPERT PANEL, PORING OVER THE STUNNERS AND THE SHOCKERS FROM OUR MULTI-PARTY DEBATE. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WINSTON PETERS. IT IS NOT WHAT WE SAY ALL THE TIME, BUT THIS TIME I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HIM IN THE DEBATE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON HIS PERFORMANCE AND WHETHER HE COULD ACHIEVE HIS GOALS TONIGHT? HE WAS MORE CONCILIATORY THAN I EXPECTED, AND THAT IS ABOUT KEEPING HIMSELF ALIVE AS THE KINGMAKER. IF HE LOOKS LIKE IT WAS COMPLETE CHAOS BETWEEN HIM AND DAVID SEYMOUR, THE PUBLIC WOULD SEE THAT IS NOT A WORKABLE OPTION, AND HE HAS TO BE IN THE MIX. I AM NOT SURE IF THEY CAN ANSWER WHETHER THEY TRUST EACH OTHER. THAT IS HIM IN A POWERPLAY, MAKING SURE HE IS STILL IN THAT SPOT WHERE IT IS FEASIBLE THAT THE PUBLIC THINKS IT COULD WORK. THERE WAS SOME CHAOS IN THERE, BUT HE WANTS TO KEEP THE NOTION THAT IT COULD WORK ALIVE. I THINK HE IS LOOKING FOR A LEGACY, WHICH IS INTERESTING IF YOU LOOK AT HIS PAST RECORD, WHICH APART FROM GOLD CARD, IS NOT MUCH. I THINK THIS IS THE LAST ROLL OF THE DICE FOR HIM. I FOUND IT REALLY INTERESTING THAT WE HAD` HE GAVE US A HISTORY LESSON IN ALL OF HIS MESSAGING. WE HAD APIRANA NGATA, IN THE BOOK BEING WAVED AROUND. ON THAT NOTE, LET'S GO TO THAT. ASKED ABOUT WHITE-COLLAR CRIME, THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST LEADER TRAVERSED A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY IN THE PROCESS. LET'S TAKE A LISTEN. THEY'RE ALL GONNA TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GONNA DO, BUT IT'S NOT BASED ON THEIR PAST REPUTATION. WE WENT OUT IN THE WINEBOX INQUIRY AND TOOK EVERY CRITICISM FROM EVERY MEDIA IN THIS COUNTRY AND STILL WON AFTER FOUR AND A HALF YEARS ` ALL THE WAY TO THE PRIVY COUNCIL. THAT'S OUR RECORD. ALL RIGHT. NOT A PROMISE. HE'S BEEN THERE 40 YEARS, AND STILL NOTHING DONE. HE IS AN EXPERIENCED POLITICIAN, HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING, WHY DID HE TAKE US BACK LIKE THAT? I THINK YOU WANT TO REMIND EVERYONE OF THE EXTENT OF KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HE HAS DONE, AND HIS EXPERIENCE, AND THAT HE IS GOING TO BE A STEADY HAND ON THE TILLER. I HAVE TO SAY, I DON'T AGREE IT IS HIS LAST ROLL OF THE DICE. I THINK HE IS APPROACHING MIDPOINT OF HIS CAREER. HE WILL KEEP GOING, I HAVE HEARD SO MANY PEOPLE SAY SO MANY TIMES, IT IS WINSTON'S LAST TIME. IT IS NOT AS FIRST RODEO. BUT IT COULD BE HAS LAST. YOU ARE A BRAVE WOMAN, JANET WILSON. HE KNOWS WHAT HIS CONSTITUENCY IS. 90% OF OVER 65'S VOTE. IF YOU WANT TO TARGET THOSE PEOPLE... I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT VOTE FOR THAT MAN. HE HAS A CONSTITUENCY THAT MIGHT LIKE IT. HE IS BACK IN THE GAME ON THE POLL NUMBERS. 6%, HE WOULD BRING IN EIGHT MPS, AND HOLD THE BALANCE OF POWER FOR NATIONAL. HE JUST NEEDS TO BE THERE. HE JUST NEEDS 8% TO GET POWER. IF YOU ROLLBACK A FEW MONTHS, NO ONE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIM PLAYING A BIG ROLE. HE HAS TIMED HIS RUN AS HE ALWAYS DOES. HE COMES OUT OF THE CABLE WITH THREE MONTHS UNTIL THE ELECTION, AND THERE HE IS. HE IS A POLITICAL GENIUS, REALLY, TO DO THIS. NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK OF THEM, UTTERLY BRILLIANT IN TERMS OF A POLITICIAN IN TERMS OF HOW HE TIMES HIS RUN. HE IS IN THE MIX. I AGREE WITH KRIS ` HE NEEDS PEOPLE TO THINK HE COULD BE IN THE MIX. DAVID SEYMOUR IS FLAILING AROUND WITHOUT, AND WINSTON PETERS WANTS TO BE A CREDIBLE OPTION. BUT AS HE HAD IN THE MIX DUE TO THE CAMPAIGN HE HAS RUN, OR WHAT THE MAJOR PARTIES HAVE NOT RUN. A COMBINATION. I THINK UNDOUBTEDLY, CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND NATIONAL HAVING POOR ON THEIR STRATEGIC OPTIONS WITH OTHER PARTIES, AND NOT REACHING OUT TO THEM EARLIER. THEY HAVE NOT REACHED OUT WITH TOP, THEY RULED OUT TE PATI MAORI. THEY HAVE DUG THEMSELVES A FEW HOLES. JACK PUT TO THE LEADERS WHY THE SMALLER PARTIES ARE DOING SO WELL THE SELECTION. KRIS, YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE IN A MAIN PARTY, BUT WHY ARE THEY SLIPPING AND SUPPORT, AND THE SMALLER PARTIES PICKING IT UP? IF YOU LOOK AT THE PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER, THEY ARE PRETTY NECK AND NECK. PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO LOOK FURTHER, WHETHER YOU ARE LEFT OR RIGHT, LOOKING AT THE CENTRE PARTY, YOU ARE IFFY ABOUT IT, AND YOU SHOP AROUND. PART OF THAT IS THAT THEY ARE SO SIMILAR. THE PURPLE VOTE HAS GONE BEIGE. I THINK THEY HAVE SIMILAR... THEY ARE TRYING TO EAT THAT CENTRE VOTE, AREN'T THEY, AND IN TRYING TO DO THAT, THEY ARE MATCHING EACH OTHER. THERE IS NO REAL POINT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MAJOR PARTIES. WHY DO YOU THINK THE MINOR PARTIES ARE GOBBLING IT UP? WITH ONLY ABOUT 62% SHARE FOR THE TWO BIG PARTIES, THAT IS LOW, OFTEN YOU GET UP TO 80. WE ARE AT A CHRIS-ROADS. THEY ARE TWO VERY SIMILAR, NOT TERRIBLY CHARISMATIC LEADERS, WHO ARE OFFERING PRETTY SIMILAR PRESCRIPTIONS. PEOPLE ARE LOOKING ELSEWHERE, AND LABOUR HAD A SUPERSTAR, AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON, PEOPLE FORGET HE HAS IN HIS FIRST TERM AS AN MP. THE COMBINATION OF THAT, IS NOT APPETISING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE. I WILL ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION. WAS THERE ANYTHING IN THAT DEBATE THAT SURPRISED YOU, JANET? YES, THERE WAS. ON IMMIGRATION, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONCILIATORY TALK. THAT WAS INTERESTING. THERE WAS A GENERAL CONSENSUS, MAINLY AROUND THE FOUR PARTIES, THAT UNTIL INFRASTRUCTURE IS BUILT, WE HAVE TOO MANY IMMIGRANTS COMING IN. JAMES SHAW WAS AT PAINS TO SAY IN A CONCILIATORY MANNER THAT IT WAS NOT THE IMMIGRANTS FAULT. IT WAS THE FAULT OF THE SYSTEM AHEAD. I FOUND THAT SURPRISING. WE HAVE A QUICK FIRE FOR YOU BOTH. IT WAS NOT HEATED ON IMMIGRATION, USUALLY IT IS. TO ME, THE LINE OF THE NIGHT WAS RAWIRI WAITITI,. SAYING WE HAVE BEEN AN OPPOSITION SINCE 1840. THAT SURPRISED ME. NOT EVERYONE WATCHES QUESTION TIME LIKE WE DO. YOU GUYS HAVE A COUPLE OF ZINGERS AS WELL, SO THANK YOU FOR SHARING. THAT'S ALL WE'VE GOT TIME FOR. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US. THANK YOU TO OUR PANELLISTS, KRIS FAAFOI, JANET WILSON AND GUYON ESPINER. IF YOU FANCY YOURSELF AS AN ARMCHAIR COMMENTATOR, HAVE YOUR SAY ABOUT HOW YOU THINK THE LEADERS WENT TONIGHT ` JUST HEAD TO onenews.co.nz/votecompass. AND IF YOU MISSED ANY MOMENTS FROM THE DEBATE, YOU CAN CATCH UP ON TVNZ PLUS; THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE ALSO FIND A VERSION WITH THE SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS THERE. BUT FROM US, PO MARIE ` GOODNIGHT. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR.