THANKS SO MUCH DONE. NOW, NO SEVEN SHARP TONIGHT, INSTEAD, OUR FINAL LEADERS' DEBATE. THE STAGE IS SET FOR CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON TO MAKE THEIR LAST PITCH TO BE THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER. STANDING BY, YOUR MODERATOR, 1 NEWS POLITICAL EDITOR JESSICA MUTCH MCKAY. KARAWHIUA ATU. OVER TO YOU JESS. THANKS, MELISSA. NAU MAI HAERE MAI; KIA ORA, EVERYONE ` WELCOME TO THE LAST LEADERS' DEBATE. IT'S NATIONAL VERSUS LABOUR, CHRIS VERSUS CHRIS. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS. JUST TWO DAYS OUT FROM THE ELECTION, THIS IS A FINAL FIGHT FOR YOUR VOTE. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. GOOD EVENING, AND THANKS FOR JOINING US. THE LEADERS OF OUR MAIN POLITICAL PARTIES ARE STANDING BY, READY TO GO HEAD TO HEAD ` LABOUR'S CHRIS HIPKINS AND NATIONAL'S CHRISTOPHER LUXON ARE IN THE HOUSE. ONE OF THEM WILL WAKE UP PRIME MINISTER ON SUNDAY MORNING. ON THE MENU TONIGHT, THE DREADED 'C' WORD ` COALITION. WHAT ARE THEY WILLING TO COMPROMISE ON TO STRIKE A DEAL? PLUS, WE WANT SOME POSITIVITY, SO WE'LL BE ASKING EACH LEADER WHAT THEY'LL DO TO TRANSFORM NEW ZEALAND TO MAKE IT A BETTER AND FAIRER PLACE FOR ALL. NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE A LIVE STUDIO AUDIENCE WATCHING HOW THE LEADERS GO IN TONIGHT'S DEBATE, WE'RE ALSO OFF TO THE PUB ` THAT'S WHERE A GROUP OF UNDECIDED VOTERS ARE HANGING OUT AND WILL BE RATING WHAT OUR CANDIDATES HAVE TO SAY. STAY TUNED AFTER THE DEBATE ` JACK TAME WILL BE JOINED BY AN EXPERT PANEL FOR THEIR ANALYSIS. AND DON'T FORGET ` WE DO HAVE SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS ON HAND; HEAD OVER TO FREEVIEW CHANNEL 200 TO SEE THEM. LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO IT WITH A QUESTION FROM OUR LATEST 1 NEWS VERIAN POLL, AND IT GOES TO THE HEART OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW ` WHO DO YOU TRUST MORE? 43% SAY CHRIS HIPKINS, WHILE ONLY 33% TRUST CHRISTOPHER LUXON MORE, AND ALMOST A QUARTER DIDN'T WANT TO BACK EITHER. CHRISTOPHER LUXTON, I WILL START WITH YOU. 33% OF PEOPLE TRUST YOU MORE. IS THAT AN UPSETTING NUMBER FOR YOU? NEW ZEALANDERS KNOW THAT I HAVE GOT REAL-WORLD LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE AND I HAVE COME TO THIS JOB BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN NEW ZEALAND. I WANTED TO DO BETTER. I SPENT MY CAREER SOLVING PROBLEMS, , GETTING THINGS DONE TURNING THINGS AROUND. , THAT IS WHAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS AND THAT IS WHY WILL BRING. THIS TRUST IMPORTANT? TRUST IS IMPORTANT. I WILL CONTINUE TO EARN THE TRUST OF NEW ZEALANDERS BY FOLLOWING THROUGH AND DELIVERING RESULTS AND OUTCOMES. THAT IS WHAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS. THERE HAS BEEN TOO MUCH TALK, GOING BACKWARDS. WE NEED TO GO FORWARDS WITH, POSITIVITY AMBITION. GET OUR MOJO BACK. 43% OF PEOPLE TRUST YOU. WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT FIGURE? THAT IS NOT EVEN HALF. YOU DON'T EARN PEOPLE'S TRUST WITH SLOGANS. YOU EARN IT WITH BEING HONEST EVERY DAY. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT GOVERNMENT. THERE WILL BE DAYS WHEN THINGS DON'T GO ACCORDING TO PLAN. I WILL ALWAYS OWN THAT, FRONT UP, TRY AND ANSWER PEOPLE'S QUESTIONS. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE DO TRUST ME MORE THAN THEY TRUST HIM. IS THAT GOING TO BE YOUR PITCH TO VOTERS TONIGHT, THAT I MIGHT NOT BE PERFECT, BUT I'M DOING OK? MY PITCH TO VOTERS AS I WILL ALWAYS BE UPFRONT AND HONEST, AND I WON'T WALK AWAY FROM THE TOUGH QUESTIONS. 1/4 OF PEOPLE DON'T TRUST EITHER OF YOU. CHRIS AND HIS TEAM HAVE BOUGHT A VERY NEGATIVE, PERSONAL ATTACKING CAMPAIGN. THAT IS RIDICULOUS. INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS SHOWS YOUR CAMPAIGN IS 94% NEGATIVE. CALM DOWN. IT HAS BEEN A PERSONAL, NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN. CHRIS DOESN'T HAVE A RECORD TO RUN ON AFTER SIX YEARS. HE HASN'T GOT IDEAS TO TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD. MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS SIMPLE. RADIO NEW ZEALAND'S ANALYSIS OF THAT SHOWED 95% OF NATIONAL'S MESSAGES DURING THIS CAMPAIGN HAVE BEEN NEGATIVE. SIMPL RADIO NEW ZEALAND'S ANALYSIS OF THAT SHOWED 95% OF NATIONAL'S MESSAGES DURING THIS CAMPAIGN HAVE BEEN -60% OF NEIGHBOURS HAVE BEEN POSITIVE. YOU SPENT THE WHOLE YEAR BAGGING THE COUNTRY. YOU WENT OVERSEAS AND SAID NEW ZEALAND WAS WHINY AND MISERABLE. I HAVE POSITIVITY. THE ONLY THING THAT HAS BEEN WHINY AND MISERABLE AS LABOUR. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH NEW ZEALAND. YOU TOLD INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCES. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU. DO YOU TRUST EACH OTHER? NO, I DON'T, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT HIS TAX SWINDLE, HE HASN'T BEEN UPFRONT WITH NEW ZEALANDERS. NOT MANY NEW ZEALANDERS WILL GET THE FULL BENEFIT FROM HIS TAX-CUT. EVERY NEW ZEALANDER WILL PAY FOR IT. DO TRUST CHRIS HIPKINS? CHRIS HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR SIX YEARS. THE QUESTION NEW ZEALANDERS ARE ASKING IS ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN YOU WERE SIX YEARS AGO? I HE DOESN'T DELIVER. HE CANNOT DELIVER. DELIVERY. DO YOU PROMISE THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC, CAN YOU BE TRUSTED TO DELIVER $15 BILLION WORTH OF TAX CUTS, MORE MONEY INTO HEALTH AND EDUCATION? IS THAT JUST A POLITICAL PROMISE? HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHRIS AND I. IT IS ONLY IN CHRIS'S GOVERNMENT THAT THEY MEASURE SUCCESS BY HOW MUCH MONEY THEY SPENT. IN MY WORLD, AND EVERY OTHER PART OF SOCIETY, YOU MEASURE SUCCESS BY OUTCOMES YOU DELIVER. WE WILL DO DIFFERENT THINGS WITH THAT MONEY. WE WILL MANAGE IT DIFFERENTLY TO GET BETTER OUTCOMES. YOU WILL HAVE PEOPLE OUT OF JOBS. YOU CAN'T INTERRUPT ME. WHEN IT COMES TO COALITION PARTNERS, DO YOU ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE 15 BILLION IN TAX CUTS? WE ARE GOING TO DELIVER TAX RELIEF FOR LOW AND MIDDLE INCOME NEW ZEALANDERS. THAT IS A BOTTOM LINE FOR US. THEY DESERVE IT. YOUR COALITION PARTNERS DON'T WANT IT. COALITION PARTNERS DON'T WANT PRISONS. WHAT I AM SAYING CLEARLY TO NEW ZEALAND WITH TWO DAYS TO GO IS GIVE US A MANDATE, A STRONG, STABLE GOVERNMENT TO DO THINGS NEW ZEALANDERS. KIWIS ARE OVER US GOING BACKWARDS. THEY WANT DELIVERY, THINGS GETTING DONE. CHRIS HAS HAD SIX YEARS. KIWIS DON'T WANT SLOGANS. THEY WANT SOMEONE WHO CAN MOVE BEYOND A SOUNDBITE AND GIVE A REASONABLE ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS, NOT A PRIME MINISTER THAT WALKS AWAY WHEN THE QUESTIONS GET TOUGH. YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN DOING THAT. CAPITAL GAINS TAX. IT IS A BOTTOM LINE FOR TE PATI MAORI AND THE GREENS. WHAT ARE YOU SO SCARED ABOUT WITH CAPITAL GAINS TAX, AND WHY HAS NEW ZEALAND NOT HAD THE CONVERSATION? WE WON'T BE IMPLEMENTING THE CAPITAL GAINS TAX. IF THEY GET A MAJORITY WITHOUT US THEY CAN DO IT, BUT WE WON'T SUPPORT IT. IT IS NOT ON THE NEGOTIATING TABLE? ABSOLUTELY. YOU WILL NOT BE BY MINISTER OF THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE FOR THEM? CAN NEW ZEALANDERS TRUST YOU ON THAT ONE, OR IS EVERYTHING ON THE TABLE WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT? WHEN IT COMES TO TAX, WE HAVE SAID WHAT ARE BOTTOM LINES ARE, AND WE WON'T BUDGE. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT CHRIS HAS RUN DEBT UP FROM $5 BILLION-$100 BILLION. 20 GREEN MPS SHOW UP IN HIS COALITION, THEY WILL DEMAND A CAPITAL GAIN TAX. IT WAS A GLOBAL PANDEMIC. YOU HAVE SPENT MORE MONEY AFTER THE PANDEMIC. YOU HAVE INCREASED GOVERNMENT SPENDING BY 80%. WE HAVE HEARD THAT. WAS IT AN OWN GOAL TO SAY THAT YOU WOULD POSSIBLY WORK WITH WINSTON PETERS IF YOU NEED TO? I HAVE LAID OUT MY PREFERENCES. I HOSTED THIS DEBATE LAST ELECTION. WHEN I PUT THAT QUESTION TO JUDITH COLLINS, SHE SAID THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN BEING IN OPPOSITION, . AND SHE WOULD RATHER STAND ON HER PRINCIPLES DO YOU AGREE? YOU PUT THE QUESTION TO JACINDA ARDERN, AND SHE WAS HAPPY TO WORK WITH HIM. SHOULD YOU BE STANDING ON YOUR PRINCIPLES? I AM STANDING ON A PRINCIPLE THAT I DO NOT WANT TO SEE LABOUR AND THE GREENS IN POWER FOR ANOTHER THREE YEARS. YOUR OWN CAMPAIGN MANAGER SAID PULLING OUT WINSTON PETERS WAS AN EXAMPLE OF LEADERSHIP. WHY HAVEN'T YOU SHOWN ANY? WE HAVE SAID CLEARLY, I WANT NEW ZEALANDERS TO UNDERSTAND WE ARE A GOVERNMENT THAT GOVERNS AND GET THINGS DONE. WAS THIS AN EXAMPLE OF POLITICAL INEXPERIENCE? I WILL PICK UP WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST TWO AVOID THE CHAOS THAT WILL ENSURE WITH LABOUR AND THE GREENS. THE CHAOS WILL BE YOU DEALING WITH DAVID SEYMOUR AND WINSTON PETERS. THEY WILL RUN CIRCLES AROUND YOU. YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO MANAGE YOUR OWN CABINET. I HAVE SET HIGH STANDARDS FOR MINISTERS. WHEN THEY DON'T MEET THEM, THEY DON'T CONTINUE. YOU HAD FIVE MINISTERS UNDER YOUR LEADERSHIP. YOU SHOULDN'T THROW STONES. NONE OF MY MPS BEAT PEOPLE UP WITH A BAD LEG. I WILL PUT A QUESTION TO YOU. I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING BOTH OF YOU OVER THE FIVE WEEKS OF THE CAMPAIGN. SINCE SUNDAY, YOU HAVE GONE FOR A PRETTY ATTACK STYLE. HAS THAT BEEN WORKING FOR YOU? DOES THAT BUILD TRUST WITH PEOPLE WATCHING THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN? ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT NEW ZEALANDERS UNDERSTAND THE CHOICE THEY HAVE. THIS WAS A TACTIC? THE NATIONAL PARTY WILL TAKE THE COUNTRY BACKWARDS. THE ONLY PLAN IS TO CUT THINGS. WE COULD HAVE A BETTER FUTURE IF THE COST OF CHANGE AS MORE CHILDREN LIVING IN POVERTY AND NO ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE, WHICH IS WHAT THEY ARE PROMISING, NEW ZEALANDERS WILL THINK AGAIN WHETHER CHANGES WERE THAT. IS THE TACTIC WORKING FOR YOU? WE HAVE MOMENTUM. WE ARE GOING TO SEE QUITE A DIFFERENT OUTCOME ON ELECTION NIGHT TO THE ONE PEOPLE WERE ANTICIPATING. YOUR ON 28 IN OUR WHOLE. THERE IS ONLY ONE A POLL THAT MATTERS. MY MESSAGE TO THE 2 MILLION KIWIS WHO ARE WATCHING THIS THINKING ABOUT HOW THEY ARE GOING TO VOTE AS WE CAN TAKE NEW ZEALAND FORWARD OR GO BACKWARDS. THAT IS PRETTY SAD. THERE IS A PRIME MINISTER THAT HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR SIX YEARS. THERE IS NO TRACK RECORD. THERE WAS NO WAY TO TAKE THE COUNTRY FORWARD. WE HAD THE BEST COVERT RESPONSE IN THE WORLD. WE WILL MOVE ON. I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE GREENS. DO YOU STILL RULE OUT WORKING WITH THE GREENS? IF YOU GET TO SUNDAY AND THAT IS HOW IT PLAYS OUT, IT WOULD FEEL LIKE A HOLIDAY, . NEGOTIATING WITH GREENS RATHER THAN ACT IN NEW ZEALAND FIRST WE HAVE RULED THE GREENS OUT. PARTY VOTE NATIONAL. WE HAVE THAT MESSAGE. DO YOU HAVE WINSTON PETERS NUMBER? YES. HAVE YOU CALLED HIM? NO. WINSTON PETERS SAID HE HAS BEEN TALKING TO YOU AND WHAT YOU HAVE SAID IN PRIVATE IS DIFFERENT THAN PUBLIC. HAVE YOU BLOCKED WINSTON PETERS NUMBER? HE HASN'T BEEN CALLING. WOULD YOU? DO YOU CATEGORICALLY RULE THAT OUT? WINSTON PETERS IN NEW ZEALAND FIRST WOULD NOT BE PART OF ANY GOVERNMENT THAT I LEAD. DESPITE BEING PART OF IT IN 2020. WOULDN'T DO IT AGAIN. YOU GROVELLED HARD TO GET HIM THERE IN 2017. THAT SEEMS LIKE AN ELEGANT PLACE TO LEAVE IT. COMING UP NEXT ` WE'RE TALKING MONEY. WE ALL KNOW WE'RE IN TOUGH TIMES, SO HOW DO THESE LEADERS PLAN TO GET OUR ECONOMY THRIVING AGAIN? WELCOME BACK TO THE FINAL LEADERS' DEBATE. WE'RE GOING TO KEEP IT SIMPLE. TO BE ABLE TO PAY FOR ALL THE THINGS WE WANT AND NEED ` LIKE MORE DOCTORS, MORE CLASSROOMS AND BETTER TRANSPORT ` THE ECONOMY NEEDS TO GROW FASTER. SO MY FIRST QUESTION TO BOTH OF YOU IS ` WHAT'S YOUR PLAN TO GROW THE ECONOMY? I WILL START WITH YOU, CHRIS HIPKINS. I HAVE SET OUT A PLAN TO MAKE NEW ZEALAND THE CLEANEST AND MOST SUSTAINABLE PRODUCER IN THE WORLD. TO BE A WORLD LEADER AND TO UNLEASH THE POTENTIAL OF OUR CREATIVE SECTOR. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH THE RIGHT GOVERNMENT. I HAVE BEEN VERY FOCUSED ON GROWING OUR INTERNATIONAL TRADE. AS PRIME MINISTER I HAVE LED FIVE DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL TRIPS ALL TRADE FOCUSED. I THINK THAT IS THE WAY WE ARE GOING TO GET RICH AS A COUNTRY AND CREATE A HIGH STANDARD OF LIVING. I WANT TO BUILD ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED SMALL COUNTRIES ON EARTH, WHICH MEANS WE GET ON TOP OF WASTEFUL SPENDING AND GET INFLATION DOWN AND THE ECONOMY GROWING AGAIN. TAX RELIEF. WE NEED TO BUILD A WORLD-CLASS EDUCATION SYSTEM AND WE NEED MODERN RELIABLE INFRASTRUCTURE. THOSE OTHER THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO IN ORDER TO BUILD A MODERN ECONOMY AND COUNTRY. PRODUCTIVITY HAS DROPPED IN THE LAST 50 YEARS. GOVERNMENT AFTER GOVERNMENT HAS PROMISED TO DO SOMEONE ABOUT IT. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DO IT OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS? THINGS LIKE THE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT TAX CREDIT WE HAVE INTRODUCED ARE HELPING TO KEEP BUSINESSES AT THE CUTTING-EDGE. THAT IS THE SORT OF THING THAT WILL INCREASE OUR PRODUCTIVITY. BUT IT IS REALLY LOW. THAT IS WHY WE INTRODUCED TO THE TAX CREDIT. WE WANT TO REWARD THOSE BUSINESSES WHO ARE INNOVATING AND AT THE CUTTING-EDGE, WHO ARE CREATING NEW IDEAS AND NEW INNOVATION THAT WE CAN TAKE TO THE WORLD. DON'T WE NEED TO BE FASTER? IT IS STILL LESS THAN 2% OF GDP. THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY IS TURNING THE CORNER. THE MOST RECENT STATISTICS SHOW WE HAVE IN THE LAST QUARTER HAD THE SECOND HIGHEST GROWTH RATE IN THE OECD, SECOND ONLY TO JAPAN. I KNOW THAT NEW ZEALAND HOUSEHOLDS ARE FEELING THE SQUEEZE, BUT GROWING THE ECONOMY, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON, IS HOW WE WILL TURN IT AROUND. YOU CAN'T SAY IT AND MAKE IT SO. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN. THE REALITY IS WE HAVE THE SECOND LARGEST CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT IN THE WORLD, MEANING WHAT WE SELL VERSUS WHAT WE BUY IS THE WORSE IT HAS BEEN SINCE THE 70S. WE NEED TO GET THE COUNTRY MOVING. GET A WORLD-CLASS EDUCATION SYSTEM, INVEST IN SKILLS AND TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION, MAKE SURE WE HAVE THAT INFRASTRUCTURE, FREE UP BUSINESSES SO THAT THEY CAN ELEVATE. SO ARE YOU GOING TO PUT MONEY INTO RESEARCH? WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AVERAGE` I WANT TO COMMERCIALISE IT. WE HAVE QUITE HIGH LEVELS OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT IN TERMS OF INNOVATION AND SCIENCE, BUT WE ARE AMONGST THE POOREST IN CONVERTING THAT BUILDING THAT INTO BIG BUSINESSES, WHICH IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO. WE NEED TO GROW MORE GLOBAL SMALL MEDIA ENTERPRISE IS THAT EXPORT TO THE WORLD. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TRADE DEFICIT. TELL THE OTHER CHRIS WHY YOUR PLAN IS BETTER. GROWING THE ECONOMY MEANS BACKING KIWI BUSINESSES TO GET OUT THERE AROUND THE REST OF THE WORLD. I BACKED OUR TRACK RECORD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR TRADE RECORD, WHILE I WAS IN THE UK, CHRISTOPHER LUXON WENT THERE AND SAID THAT NEW ZEALANDERS WERE WET AND MISERABLE. WE HAVE ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL INTERNATIONAL TRADE RECORDS OF ANY NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT. WE ARE FOCUSED ON BEING A CLEAN GREEN SUSTAINABLE FOOD PRODUCER. WHY HAS AUSTRALIA NEGOTIATED WITH INDIA IN THE MIDDLE OF COVID? THEY HAVEN'T EVEN PICKED UP THE PHONE AND BUILT UP THE RELATIONSHIP. DO YOU COMMIT OVER THE NEXT TERM TO GETTING A FREE TRADE DEAL WITH INDIA? ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE SAID CLEARLY WE WANT TO BE OUT THERE HUSTLING. WE HAVE LOST SO MUCH GROUND. DO YOU COMMIT TO THAT AS WELL? HOW CAN YOU DO THAT WHEN THEY ARE SAYING THEY WON'T COMMIT TO ONE WITH US? WILL YOU GO AND TELL THEM THEY HAVE TO HAVE A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT WITH US? WILL YOU SUCCEED WHERE JOHN KEY FAILED? AT THE MOMENT AUSTRALIAN WINE IS SELLING TO INDIA A LOT CHEAPER. WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE WE ACTUALLY GET A DEAL IN INDIA THAT ACTUALLY STARTS TRADE. BUT THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO ENTER TRADE NEGOTIATIONS WITH US? I AM CONFIDENT WE CAN BUILD DEEPER TRADE RELATIONSHIPS. THEY HAVE DONE AN EARLY HARVEST AGREEMENT WITH AUSTRALIA, BRITAIN, CANADA. I AM NOT SURE IF YOU NEED ME AT THIS POINT. WITHIN 100 DAYS OF FORMING THE NEXT GOVERNMENT I WILL LEAD A TRADE MISSION TO INDIA. I WILL NOT MAKE A PROMISE THAT I CAN'T FULFIL. PROMISING A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT WHEN THE GOVERNMENT SAY THEY DON'T WANT AN AGREEMENT WITH US IS MISLEADING. YOU SHOULD BE UPFRONT ABOUT THE FACT THAT THAT IS A PROMISE YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DELIVER. AUSTRALIA HAS AN EARLY HARVEST FREE TRADE AGREEMENT. CHRIS LUXON, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT SOMETHING YOU HAVE PROMISED A LOT. YOU HAVE PROMISED A WHOLE LOT OF NEW MINISTERS. THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING. A MINISTER FOR SPACE, HUNTING AND FISHING,... CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THAT WILL WORK? WILL THESE BE SEPARATE? AUNTIE MEANT TO BE REDUCING THE PUBLIC SECTOR? YES BUT I WANT DEDICATED MINISTERS SITTING AROUND THE TABLE. WE WILL HAVE THE STANDARD CABINET SIZE, BUT I WANT MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBLE IT IS FOR THE PARTICULAR RESPONSIBLE IT IS. I WANT SOMEBODY AROUND THE TABLE SAYING, HOW ARE WE MAKING THE SPACE INDUSTRY GO FASTER? YOU NEED SOMEBODY` STEPHEN JOYCE DID A GREAT JOB IN THE LAST GOVERNMENT. MEGAN WOOD HAS BEEN DOING A GREAT JOB. THE ACT PARTY WAS TO CUT ALL OF THE SUPPORT, AND THEY ARE YOUR PREFERRED COALITION PARTNER. YOU HAVE ADDED 14,000 BUREAUCRATS, INCREASED GOVERNMENT SPENDING BY 18%, WITH NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT. CHRIS LUXON, HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT A SPACE MINISTER POTENTIALLY, MAYBE WINSTON PETERS? I AM QUITE SERIOUS ABOUT IT. WE HAVE TO GET OURSELVES`� ME TOO. TO OUR ECONOMY IS NOT GOING. WE HAVE ONE OF THE SLOWEST GROWING ECONOMIES AND THE OECD. THE FACTS SAY OTHERWISE. IT IS JUST NOT TRUE. PLEASE. LET'S COME DOWN. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO GROW THE COUNTRY AND GET INTO A GROWTH MINDSET. WE WANT EVERY SECTOR POWERED UP. FINAL QUESTION AND THEN I WILL MOVE INTO` YOU WILL NOT GROW THE ECONOMY BY GOING AROUND THE WORLD CALLING NEW ZEALANDERS MISERABLE, CUTTING THOUSANDS OF JOBS BEFORE CHRISTMAS, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING TO DO. YOU GROW THE ECONOMY BY BACKING BUSINESSES, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE DONE; BY ENTERING INTO FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS WITH COUNTRIES THAT ARE WILLING TO ENTER INTO THEM, WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE DONE. THE UK, EUROPEAN UNION, THE COMPREHENSIVE AND PROGRESSIVE... QUICKFIRE QUESTIONS NOW. STARTING WITH YOU, CHRIS HIPKINS. FEES FREE FOR TOTALLY STUDENTS WAS NOT YOUR SUMMER? YES. YES. VOTING AGE AT 16? YES. I WOULD PERSONALLY SUPPORTED BUT I RECOGNISE WE DON'T HAVE THE NUMBERS. 18 IS FINE. SHOULD PARENTS BE FINED IF THEIR CHILDREN DO NOT TURN UP TO SCHOOL? IN THEORY YES, BUT IN REALITY IT DOES NOT CHANGE ATTENDANCE. I SHOULD USE THE REMEDIES THAT ARE AVAILABLE, SO YES. WE WILL TRY REALLY HARD FOR YES AND NO. SHOULD GREYHOUND RACING BE BANNED? YES. YES. THERE IS A REVIEW COMING. WOULD YOU GO TO CHINA IN THE FIRST SIX MONTHS OF YOUR PRIME MINISTERIAL SHIP? I MADE A COMMITMENT LAST TIME THAT I WOULD COME BACK AS SOON AS I COULD. YES. HOW OFTEN DO YOU TEXT THE AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER? GENERALLY WHEN THERE IS A REASON. WHEN A CONVERSATION THIS WEEK ABOUT ISRAEL. AND FOR YOU? I DO HAVE HIS NUMBER, BECAUSE I KNOW HIM WELL FROM MY PREVIOUS LIFE, SO I HAVE TALKED TO HIM WHEN HE WAS OVER HERE LAST TIME. NOT TEXTING HIM, NO. ARE YOU MORE OF A CALL OR TEXT? I AM A VERBAL GUY, I CAN GET STUCK ON THE PHONE FOR A LONG TIME TALKING. POVERTY'S ON THE AGENDA NEXT ` SO HOW WILL THESE LEADERS CLOSE THE GROWING GAP BETWEEN THOSE WHO ARE THRIVING AND THOSE WHO ARE ONLY JUST SURVIVING? THAT CONVERSATION NEXT. WELCOME BACK. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A QUESTION NOW FROM A WOMAN WHO UNDERSTANDS FIRST HAND THE COST-OF-LIVING STRUGGLE. AGNES IS A SOLO MUM, AND SHE HAS A CRIMINAL HISTORY. SHE SAYS THAT MADE IT VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR HER TO GET A JOB. SHE'S NOW AN ADVOCATE FOR BENEFICIARIES. MY NAME IS AGNES. I AM A MOTHER OF THREE, AND I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN SOUTH AUCKLAND I AM CURRENTLY LIVING IN A KAIANGA ORA HOUSE AND HAVE BEEN ON THE BENEFIT. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO HELP ELIMINATE POVERTY FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THE FAMILIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING? WHY SHOULD WE ACTUALLY TRUST THAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT NOW? AGNES IS HERE. IN THE AUDIENCE. BOTH OF THE LEADERS WILL BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO HER. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR BEING WITH US TODAY. CHRIS ATKINS, . I WANT TO START WITH YOU WHAT DO YOU SAY TO AGNES? CAN SHE TRUST YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT? KIA ORA. THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU ARE DOING ADVOCATING FOR PEOPLE LIVING ON BENEFITS. BENEFIT WE HAVE LIFTED 77,000 CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. EVERY CHILD POVERTY INDICATOR HAS IMPROVED. WE HAVE MORE WORK TO DO IN THE AREA. I DON'T WANT TO SEE CHILDREN IN NEW ZEALAND LIVING IN POVERTY. WE HAVE CHANGED THE WAY BENEFITS ARE CALCULATED, SO BENEFITS ARE KEEPING UP WITH THE INCREASED COST OF LIVING. , PEOPLE RELYING ON BENEFITS THOSE WHO CAN'T WORK, CAN MAKE ENDS MEET. WE HAVE PUT MORE TRAINING PROGRAMS IN PLACE TO UP SKILL AND GET BACK INTO EMPLOYMENT, INTO A JOB THEY CAN KEEP. I WANT YOU TO ADDRESS AGNES AND TALK TO HER QUESTION. THANK YOU FOR YOUR QUESTION IN SHARING YOUR STORY. I COMMIT TO BUILDING A STRONGER AND BETTER ECONOMY SO WE CAN GET PEOPLE OFF WELFARE AND UNTIL WORK. YOU ARE GOING TO CUT BENEFITS. WE NEED TO BUILD A BETTER ECONOMY, BECAUSE UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE SEEN A LOW UNEMPLOYMENT AND 60,000 MORE PEOPLE ON A BENEFIT. THAT IS NOT A PATHWAY. WE WANT PEOPLE OUT WORKING. THAT IS WHAT IT IS ABOUT. EMPLOYMENT IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY. I PUT THAT TO YOU, CHRIS LUXTON. WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE A SAFETY NET IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS IMPORTANT WE HAVE THAT. WE WILL HAVE INCREASED BENEFITS EVERY YEAR, SO THAT YOUR PURCHASING POWER IS PROTECTED. WE'RE GOING TO MOVE PEOPLE OFF WELFARE. YOU DO WANT TO MAKE SOME CHANGES. ADVISORY GROUPS HAVE SAID IT IS FAIRER TO LINK BENEFITS TO WAGES. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. YOU WANT TO CUT 500 MILLION A YEAR, 2 BILLION OVER FOUR YEARS. IS IT THAT TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM BENEFICIARIES? WE ARE GOING TO INCREASE BENEFITS EVERY YEAR. THOUSANDS OF MORE CHILDREN WILL BE IN POVERTY. 60,000 MORE PEOPLE ON UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT. $2 BILLION IN BENEFIT CUTS. WHY WON'T YOU ANSWER QUESTIONS? I KNOW WHY YOU WON'T ANSWER QUESTIONS, BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO NUMBERS TO REMEMBER. $2000 A YEAR, LOWEST INCOMES WOULD LOSE UNDER YOUR PLAN. HERE IS THE OTHER NUMBER REMEMBER. 300 MEGA LANDLORDS, THAT HAVE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROPERTIES, WILL GET $1 MILLION EACH IN TAX CUTS. THAT SHOWS THAT YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS ENTIRELY WRONG. YOU WANT TO TAKE FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE LEAST TO GIVE TO THE PEOPLE WITH THE MOST. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE? MR PRIME MINISTER, THAT HASN'T DONE ANYTHING TO ELIMINATE IT. THE QUESTION FROM AGNES AS LABOUR HAVEN'T DONE ENOUGH. DOESN'T SHE HAVE A POINT THERE? YOU HAD A ONCE IN A GENERATION OPPORTUNITY, WHEN YOU HAD A FULL MAJORITY. WE HAVE INCREASED BENEFITS. ONE IN 10 CHILDREN ARE STILL LIVING IN SEVERE POVERTY. IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? IT IS NOT. OUR JOB IS NOT DONE. WE HAVE LIFTED 77,000 CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. I WILL NOT STOP UNTIL WE HAVE ALL CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. CHILDREN ARE LIVING IN SEVERE INCOME POVERTY. THERE IS MORE WORK TO BE DONE. WE HAVE TO LIVE THOSE CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY. WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT BY CUTTING BENEFITS. THAT IS WHAT THE NATIONAL PARTY ARE PROPOSING. $2000 PER YEAR PER HOUSEHOLD THAT YOU ARE GOING TO CUT. HERE HE GOES AGAIN, MISINFORMATION. WE ARE NOT CUTTING BENEFITS; WE ARE INCREASING BENEFITS EVERY YEAR. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU WOULD GIVE THEM AND WHAT WE WOULD GIVE THEM. WHERE DOES THE CUTS COME FROM? WE ARE INCREASING BENEFITS. TO MILLION DOLLARS ARE BUDGETED TO BE CUT. YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO TAYLOR SWIFT WHEN SHE TELLS YOU YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN. I AM NOT GOING TO CALM DOWN ABOUT YOU CUTTING BENEFITS TO GIVE LANDLORDS WHO HAVE PLENTY TAX BREAKS. LANDLORDS DO NOT NEED $1 MILLION IN TAX BREAKS. PEOPLE LIVING ON BENEFITS, YOU HAVE THOUSANDS MORE CHILDREN. YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS GONE. YOU NEED TO LISTEN AND BE RESPECTFUL. I WANT TO CHANGE PACK. HOW MUCH YOU SPEND A WEEK ON FOOD? ABOUT 60 BUCKS. I LIVE BY MYSELF. MYSEL IT IS MORE THAN $60. IT WILL BE THREE OR $400 A WEEK IF I COMBINE ALL THE SPENDING ON FOOD A WEEK. IF YOU HAD $50 A WEEK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE BENEFICIARIES, USING AGNES AS A SAMPLE, WHAT WOULD YOU PRIORITISE BUYING FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY IF YOU HAD 50 BUCKS A WEEK? THE HEALTHIEST FOOD AVAILABLE ON THE BUDGET THAT I HAD AVAILABLE. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IS NOT A LOT OF MONEY TO LIVE ON. I PUT THE SAME QUESTION TO YOU. WHAT WOULD YOU PRIORITISE IF IT WAS FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY, NOT JUST YOU? I AM IN A POSITION WHERE I DON'T FEEL THE COST OF LIVING IS MUCH AS EVERYBODY ELSE. I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL IT. I HAVE MET WITH PARENTS WHO WERE SKIPPING MEALS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD FOOD FOR THE KIDS. I HAVE BEEN TO FOOD BANKS. YOU WANT TO CUT BENEFITS. YOU ARE BEING DISRESPECTFUL. WE ARE TRYING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION SO PEOPLE SEE OUR PLANS. LET HIM FINISH. WHAT I HAVE TO SAY TO YOU IS THAT IS THE KEY THING. WE HAVE FAMILIES ON AVERAGE INCOMES WHO WERE IN FOOD BANKS. PEOPLE ARE WORKING HARD, BUT THEY CAN'T GET AHEAD. THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TO RESTORE. I DON'T THINK IT IS RIGHT UNDER CHRIS'S GOVERNMENT. WE SEEK HOUSING OUT OF CONTROL. CAN AGNES TRUST YOU TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT THIS TERM? WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. WE HAVE DO GET PEOPLE INTO HIGH-PAYING JOBS. YOU ARE SAVING MONEY ON THE BENEFICIARIES, 5 MILLION A YEAR. WE ARE INCREASING BENEFITS, LINKING IT TO INFLATION. THAT HAS BEEN THE HISTORICAL WAY TO DO IT. I THINK YOU SHOULD ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION IS FAIR. YOU ARE CUTTING $2 BILLION OUT OF THE WELFARE BUDGET. WHY? WE ARE INCREASING BENEFITS EVERY YEAR. HOW WILL YOU SAVE THE $2 BILLION? YOUR FISCAL PLAN REMOVES THAT MONEY. HOW YOU DO THAT WITHOUT CUTTING BENEFITS? CAN YOU BE TRUSTED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT BENEFICIARIES? CAN YOU BE TRUSTED TO HAVE ACTION? IT SEEMS YOU HAVE SQUANDERED THAT OPPORTUNITY. I DON'T AGREE. WE HAVE INCREASED BENEFITS, INCLUDING REVERSING BENEFIT CUTS. THAT IS FROM THE 1990S. YOU ARE CUTTING BENEFITS. YOU WANT TO GIVE LANDLORDS TAX BREAKS. WILL YOU GUARANTEE THE ATTACK BREAKS LANDLORDS GET WILL GO TO LOWER? DO YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE? WOULD YOU RECOMMEND IT? YES. SHOULD WE BE ABLE TO RELY ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM? YES. CHRIS HIPKINS, DO YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE? I DO. WHEN I FIRST JOINED THE WORKFORCE, I GOT IT THROUGH THE UNION. DO YOU RECOMMEND IT? IF YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO DO SO, BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THE HEALTH SYSTEM IS SUCH THAT THEY DON'T NEED IT. DO THEY GET A BETTER DEAL? PEOPLE WHO AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE, THEY ARE WELCOME TO CHOOSE. OUR HEALTH SYSTEM SHOULD OPERATE SO PEOPLE DON'T NEED INSURANCE. I LET THINGS GO WITH THE QUICKFIRE ROUND, SO WILL HAVE TO WRAP IT UP. TALKING ABOUT PIPES AND ROADS MIGHT NOT SOUND EXCITING, BUT DO WE HAVE NEWS FOR YOU. STICK AROUND TO SEE WHY INFRASTRUCTURE MATTERS ` ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO WHO PAYS FOR IT. WELCOME BACK. RIGHT NOW, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF AUCKLAND, A GIANT 13m SINK-HOLE IS SENDING A HUNDRED LITRES OF HUMAN WASTE INTO THE HARBOUR PER SECOND ` AND THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T SWIM IN SOME OF AUCKLAND'S BEACHES, LIKE BAYSWATER, MISSION BAY AND DEVONPORT. MEANWHILE, THE TOURIST CAPITAL, QUEENSTOWN, HAS HAD BACTERIA-INFECTED WATER, AND WELLINGTON HOUSEHOLDS HAVE BEEN WARNED THAT THEY'LL NEED TO BOIL WATER THIS SUMMER. IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF AGING PIPES. THESE EVENTS HAVE RAISED CONCERNS AND, INEVITABLY, QUESTIONS ` LIKE THIS ONE. MY NAME'S ANDREW JEFFS. I'M A PROFESSOR OF MARINE SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND. MY QUESTION IS ` WE'VE RECENTLY SEEN THE FAILURE OF SEWAGE INFRASTRUCTURE IN OUR MAJOR CITIES IN NEW ZEALAND, INCLUDING THE WORST POLLUTION EVENT IN AUCKLAND FOR OVER 50 YEARS. WE'VE HEARD A LOT FROM THE PARTIES ABOUT INVESTING IN ROAD INFRASTRUCTURE; I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THE PARTIES ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT INVESTING IN SEWAGE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT IN NEW ZEALAND. I WILL PUT THAT QUESTION TO YOU. IT IS NOT A PARTICULARLY SEXY TOPIC WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? WE HAVE AN INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICIT AND A NUMBER OF AREAS, BUT WITH RESPECT TO FREE WATERS, WE WILL REPEAL IT AND SEND THOSE ASSETS BACK TO LOCAL CONTROL. WHERE THE PROBLEM STARTED. THEN WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WITH THE WATER REGULATOR WE ENFORCE A GOOD QUALITY STANDARDS AND WE HAVE A WATER INFRASTRUCTURE REGULATOR TO MAKE SURE COUNCILS ARE INVESTING IN THOSE ASSETS. THE THIRD THING, AND THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE HAD IN NEW ZEALAND, IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO LONG-TERM FUNDING AND FINANCING. HAVE YOU ALLOCATED THAT? THE WAY IS THAT YOU SET THE LOCAL COUNCIL CONTROL ORGANISATIONS UP... IT IS DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING IT. I AM ASKING YOU A CIVIL QUESTION. HAVE YOU SET ASIDE THE MONEY? WE HAVE FLEX ABILITY IN OUR CAPITAL, BUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THE COUNCILS CAN CREATE COUNCIL CONTROL ORGANISATIONS, ACCESS LONG-TERM DEBT FUNDING AND FINANCING, AND WHEN YOU BUY A HOUSE, YOU PAY A LITTLE BIT EACH YEAR RATHER THAN WHAT YOU DO AT THE MOMENT, SCRAMBLE FOR CASH. I THINK THAT WAS A NO. $31 BILLION NEEDS TO BE SPENT OVER THE NEXT` EVERY YEAR OVER THE NEXT 30 YEARS TO CATCH UP ON THIS. DON'T POLITICIANS NEED TO FOCUS ON THINGS LIKE THIS RATHER THAN SHINY BAUBLES LIKE NEW ROADS OR BRIDGES? ABSOLUTELY. THAT IS EXACTING WHY WE HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN AFFORDABLE WATER REFORM. AT THE MOMENT IT IS NOT WORKING, AND WHAT CHRIS WANTS TO DO IS PUT IT BACK TO COUNCILS AND STATE IS THEIR PROBLEM. COUNCILS CAN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. WE WANT TO ESTABLISH THE WATER ENTITIES SO THAT WE CAN DO WHAT CHRIS HAS JUST OUTLINED ` ACCESS THINGS LIKE A DEBT FUNDING, SPREAD THE COST. YOU A PROMISING $45 BILLION FOR A SECOND HARBOUR CROSSING, AND UNDERGROUND TRAIN NETWORK. LIGHT RAIL, WHICH HASN'T EVEN BEEN BUILT. SHOULDN'T WE BE INVESTING MORE INROADS? YOU ARE ALSO PROMISING 24 BILLION. BUT ARE FUNDED ON A DIFFERENT WAY. SHOULDN'T YOU BE FOCUSING ON THE ASSETS WE HAVE GOT? ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE DOING AFFORDABLE WATER REFORM. BUT WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. SIMPLY DOING WHAT THE NATIONAL PARTY SAY, LEAVING IT TO COUNCILS, IS NOT GOING TO FIX THE PROBLEM. WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE IS NOT TRUE. I HAVE READ YOUR FISCAL PLAN ` THERE IS NOTHING IN THERE FOR WATER INFRASTRUCTURE. WE HAVE UNALLOCATED ALLOWANCES, AS YOU KNOW... WHICH YOUR RODENT PROJECTS WILL TAKE UP ALL OF. THE WHOLE THING HERE IS THAT` YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. WE DO NOT USE THAT HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. YOU WERE JUST COMPLAINING WE HAVE BORROWED TOO MUCH AND NOW YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD BORROW MORE. JUST TO BE REALLY CLEAR, HAVE YOU ALLOCATED FUNDING TO DEAL WITH THE AGEING INFRASTRUCTURE WHEN IT COMES TO WATER? HOW MUCH? YES, BUT WE'RE GOING TO SET UP A DIFFERENT MECHANISM` IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE` I AM TRYING TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THERE A DIFFERENT WAY TO ACCESS THE MONEY RATHER THAN THE GOVERNMENT HAVING TO` STILL NO ANSWER. LET ME FINISH. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN THE BIG` WE DON'T ACTUALLY ACCESS LONG-TERM DEBT FUNDING AND FINANCING MECHANISMS. YOU NEED COUNCIL CONTROL ORGANISATIONS, WHICH IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. CHRIS SAID IT IS A VOLUNTARY PROCESS, FREE WATERS; THEN HE MANDATED IT, THEN HE CREATED 10 MEGA BUREAUCRACIES. THE AUCKLAND MAYOR SAYS WATER BILLS WILL DOUBLE UNDER YOUR SCHEME. WE ARE GOING TO WORK WITH HIM AFTER THE SELECTION TO MAKE SURE WE GET A GREAT PLAN. IS THAT GIVING PEOPLE MUCH REASSURANCE? I HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE MAYORS AND COUNCILS FOR OVER TWO YEARS HOW BEST TO APPROACH THIS. WE ARE GOING TO USE THE MODEL WE SEE IN AUSTRALIA, SIT DOWN WITH THE MAYOR OF AUCKLAND ` THERE IS A PECULIAR CHALLENGE THERE BECAUSE THERE IS A LARGE WATER ENTITY. LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ` JESSICA, IF I COULD... LET'S DO A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TACK NOW. WHEN YOU LOOK AT BOTH OF YOUR POLICIES, YOU HAVE MORE IN COMMON WITH EACH OTHER THAN YOU PERHAPS DO WITH SOME OF YOUR OTHER COALITION PARTNERS. IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT ON LONG-TERM, RODENT PROJECTS, WATER PROJECT, YOU TOO COULD VOTE TOGETHER TO COME UP WITH SOME KIND OF PLAN? THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM WITH INFRASTRUCTURE IN NEW ZEALAND. IT GETS TURNED OFF AND ON. DO YOU COMMIT TO THAT? YOU NEED A THIRTY-YEAR PIPELINE OF INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, 10 YEAR CITY AND REGIONAL DEALS TO LOCK IN THE KEY PROJECTS. BUT DO YOU COMMIT TO A PLAN? BECAUSE AS THAT REAL LEADERSHIP? YOU PUT THE SCAFFOLDING IN PLACE AND THE PROCESSES SO THAT WE CAN MANAGE INFRASTRUCTURE. DO YOU COMMIT TO WORKING AND VOTING WITH LABOUR ON BIG ISSUES LIKE THIS? THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE INFRASTRUCTURE COMMISSION. YOU STILL HAVE TO ALLOW A BUDGET FOR IT. DO YOU COMMIT TO VOTING TOGETHER ON BIG LONG-TERM`? WE NEED TO FUND THE INFRASTRUCTURE WE HAVE COMMITTED TO. IT IS NOT JUST ROADS AND PIPES BUT SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS. WE HAVE INVESTED A RECORD AMOUNT AND FIXING THEM UP. DO YOU COMMIT TO VOTING TOGETHER TO CREATE SOME LONG-TERM STRATEGIES? WE WILL CERTAINLY FIGHT WITH ANYONE WHO IS GOING TO ALLOCATE THE FUNDING THAT WILL WORK. WE ALSO HAVE TO GET SOME MECHANISMS IN THE COUNTRY THAT, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER WE ARE VOTING, THERE IS ACTUALLY A PROCESS. I WILL JUST KEEP GOING. THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST` I DO HAVE TO MOVE ON NOW, MR. THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST DIVISIVE WE'VE HAD IN A WHILE. AFTER THE BREAK, FIND OUT HOW THESE LEADERS HOPE TO BRING US ALL TOGETHER. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US. GOING BACK TO TRUST AND LEADERSHIP NOW ` THIS CAMPAIGN HAS FELT THE MOST UNSAFE OF ANY THAT I'VE COVERED. DO YOU BOTH AGREE WITH ME ON THAT? DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO CALL OUT RACISM, WHEN AND IF YOU SEE IT AS WELL IS DOG WHISTLING? ABSOLUTELY. RACISM IN ALL ITS FORM. THIS COUNTRY IS MORE DIVIDED THAN IT HAS BEEN. THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE AMOUNT OF IDENTITY POLITICS AT PLAY. WHAT IS IDENTITY POLITICS? DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE DONE ENOUGH OF THAT THIS CAMPAIGN? I HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT EVERYWHERE I HAVE GONE, THE FACT THE COUNTRY IS DIVIDED. THEY WANT US TO REUNITE THIS COUNTRY. WHAT DO YOU THINK? DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE CALLING OUT RACISM AND DOG WHISTLING? WE SHOULD, AND I HAVE WHENEVER I HAVE HEARD IT. YOU DON'T BRING NEW ZEALANDERS TOGETHER BY CALLING LOW INCOME NEW ZEALANDERS BOTTOM FEEDERS. HOW WOULD YOU BRING NZERS TOGETHER POST-ELECTION? BY LEADING BY EXAMPLE, BY BEING INCLUSIVE. HOW WOULD YOU UNITE NEW ZEALAND? WE HAVE TO BRING NEW ZEALAND TOGETHER, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. DON'T CALL PEOPLE BOTTOM FEEDERS. YOU ARE BEING DISRESPECTFUL. WE ARE TRYING TO TALK TO VIEWERS. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS. WE NEED TO BRING NEW ZEALAND TOGETHER WE ARE ALL ONE COUNTRY, BUT WE HAVE DIVERSITY AND STRENGTHEN OUR COMMUNITIES AND IDENTITIES. THAT IS FANTASTIC. WE SHOULD RESPECT THAT. WE DON'T HIT FARMERS AGAINST CITY FOLK, TENANTS AGAINST LANDLORDS, EMPLOYERS AGAINST EMPLOYEES. WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER, BUILT OUR ECONOMY, RESPECT. AS YOU TRY AND CONVINCE VOTERS OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS TO VOTE, I PUT THIS QUESTION TO JACINDA ARDERN WHEN SHE WAS HERE LAST ELECTION AND ASKED IF YOU LOSE THE NEXT ELECTION, WILL YOU STAY ON OR RESIGN? I PUT THIS TO YOU. I HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT. I AM FOCUSED ON WINNING. IF YOU DON'T, WILLIE RESIGN? I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT. YOU WILL STAY ON AS LABOUR LEADER? I AM FOCUSED ON WINNING THE ELECTION. YOU WILL STAY ON AS LABOUR LEADER? I HAVEN'T MADE THAT DECISION, BECAUSE I AM FOCUSED ON WINNING. I PUT THE SAME QUESTION TO YOU. I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT EITHER, BECAUSE I AM ALL IN. FULL YOU STAY IN AS NATIONAL LEADER IF YOU DON'T WIN? HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT. NEITHER OF YOU ARE ANSWERING THAT ONE, BUT AT LEAST WE HAVE UNITY ON THAT. ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO GET STUFF DONE, BECAUSE IT SURE SEEMS HARD TO GET THINGS ACROSS THE LINE? ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTEL WE HAVE LIFTED 77,000 CHILDREN OUT OF POLICY, CLIMATE EMISSIONS DOWN THREE YEARS IN A ROW, AND WE WILL BUILD MORE HOUSING. YOU GOT THREE POINTS. WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN GET THINGS DONE? I AM GOING TO GET BETTER PUBLIC SERVICE TARGETS IN. EVERYONE GOING TO WORK TODAY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE THERE TO DO, IN TERMS OF IMPROVING. YOUR NUMBER ONE POINT WAS LONG, SO I WILL STOP YOU. WE HAVE ONLY GOT ONE MORE DAY OF THE CAMPAIGN LEFT. THAT HAS BEEN A LONG CAMPAIGN. IN TERMS OF REGRETS, OTHER ANY THINGS YOU WISH YOU HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY? I AM THINKING WINSTON PETERS, RELEASING SOME NUMBERS ON TAX. NO. WE HAVE RUN A VERY POSITIVE CAMPAIGN. WE PRESENTED UP TO 60 COMMONSENSE IDEAS. THE REGRETS? WE HAVE MADE MISTAKES, BUT NOTHING MATERIAL. WAS IT A CALCULATED POLITICAL RISK, IN HINDSIGHT, WAS IT A MISTAKE TO KEEP THE TORCH FOR WINSTON PETERS? NO. IF YOU WANT CHANGE, AND WE ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, PARTY VOTE NATIONAL. DO YOU HAVE ANY REGRETS ABOUT THIS CAMPAIGN? I REGRET NOT ASSERTIVELY CHALLENGING NATIONALS NEGATIVITY FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE THEY GOT AWAY WITH THAT TAX SWINDLE RHETORIC BUT TOO LONG. DO YOU THINK THE PUBLIC RESPOND WELL TO THAT? NEW ZEALANDERS ARE OUTRAGED THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXTON HAS BEEN PROMISING $250 A FORTNIGHT IN TAX RELIEF AND THEY HAVE WORKED OUT THAT IS NOT TRUE. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY REGRETS? I STAND BY MY DECISION TO RULE OUT WORKING WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST AFTER THE ELECTION AND ABOUT THE POSITIVE VISION WE HAVE A NEW ZEALAND. IF YOU ARE NOT PRIME MINISTER ON SUNDAY, WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO CHRIS LUXTON IF HE GETS THE JOB? YOU NEED TO BRUSH UP ON ANSWERING QUESTIONS. YOU HAVE GOT TO GIVE IT UP. WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO CHRIS HIPKINS IF HE IS BY MINISTER? FOCUS ON THE FUTURE. BE POSITIVE. FOLLOW-THROUGH ON YOUR PLAN. HUNDRED PERCENT CLEAR, YOU WILL FIGHT ANOTHER ELECTION, NO MATTER WHAT? I AM GOING TO WIN THIS ELECTION. THAT IS WHAT I AM HERE TO DO. YOU COMMIT TO ANOTHER ELECTION CAMPAIGN? AS PRIME MINISTER, ABSOLUTELY. ANOTHER THREE YEARS, NO MATTER WHAT? I AM FOCUSED ON WINNING THIS ELECTION. WE ARE GOING TO GO TO WORK FOR NEW ZEALAND AND GET THINGS DONE. YOU ARE COMMITTING HERE TO DOING ANOTHER THREE YEARS? I HAVE SAID I HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT LOSING AN ELECTION. WILL YOU DO ANOTHER ELECTION NO MATTER WHAT? I AM ONLY THINKING ABOUT WINNING, BUT IF I WIN, I WILL BE HERE IN THREE YEARS. I WILL BE HERE IN THREE YEARS. TO END, I WANT TO KNOW YOUR VISION FOR NEW ZEALAND. YOU'LL EACH HAVE 30 SECONDS. WE'VE TOSSED A COIN, AND WE'LL START WITH CHRIS HIPKINS. IN TOUGH TIMES, IT'S NATURAL TO LOOK FOR CHANGE, BUT CHANGE HAS CONSEQUENCES. IF CHRISTOPHER LUXON WINS, YOU LOSE; ONLY 3000 HOUSEHOLDS GET THEIR FULL TAX CUT, BUT EVERYONE WILL PAY FOR IT. THOUSANDS OF KIDS WILL BE BACK IN POVERTY, WE'LL GO BACKWARDS ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND JOB CUTS BY CHRISTMAS. THERE IS A BETTER WAY. LABOUR WILL HELP YOU WITH THE COST OF LIVING AND GROW OUR ECONOMY. WE ARE SEEING A SURGE IN SUPPORT BECAUSE NZERS CAN SEE WHAT'S AT RISK, SO MY MESSAGE TO YOU IS THIS ` VOTE WITH YOUR VALUES; PARTY VOTE LABOUR. RIGHT. YOUR TURN, CHRIS LUXON. IF YOU'RE STRUGGLING WITH YOUR MORTGAGE, YOUR RENT OR BUYING GROCERIES, IF YOU'RE WORKING HARD, BUT JUST CAN'T GET AHEAD, IF YOU'RE FEELING UNSAFE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, YOU NEED CHANGE. NATIONAL WILL REBUILD THE ECONOMY TO REDUCE THE COST OF LIVING AND GIVE YOU TAX RELIEF, RESTORE LAW AND ORDER AND PROVIDE BETTER EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE. KIWIS KNOW WE CAN BE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS. NATIONAL HAS THE TEAM, ENERGY AND POSITIVE PLANS TO TAKE NZ FORWARD. BUT TO GET THIS CHANGE, YOU NEED TO CHOOSE IT, SO PLEASE, PARTY VOTE NATIONAL, AND TOGETHER, LET'S GET OUR COUNTRY BACK ON TRACK. AND THAT'S THE END OF OUR DEBATE. I'D LIKE TO THANK CHRIS LUXON AND CHRIS HIPKINS FOR BEING WITH US. IT'S SET TO BE A BIG WEEKEND. MAKE SURE YOU'RE BACK HERE ON SATURDAY FOR OUR ELECTION SPECIAL. I'LL BE JOINED BY JOHN CAMPBELL AND JACK TAME, BRINGING YOU ALL THE LATEST RESULTS AS THEY ROLL IN. WE'D LOVE TO SEE YOU FROM 7. SO IT'S NOW UP TO VOTERS TO HAVE THEIR SAY. HAVE THE LEADERS DONE ENOUGH TONIGHT TO SWAY YOU? HERE TO HELP ANSWER THAT IS JACK TAME. KIA ORA, JESS. THAT'S RIGHT ` I'VE GOT AN EXPERT PANEL OF POLITICAL INSIDERS WITH ME TO RATE HOW THE TWO CHRISES WENT. PLUS, WE'RE OFF TO THE PUB TO HEAR FROM SOME UNDECIDED VOTERS. HERE THEY ARE ` WHAT DID THEY MAKE OF THE DEBATE? WE'LL HEAR FROM THEM RIGHT AFTER THE BREAK. STAY WITH US. WELCOME BACK TO OUR POST-MATCH ANALYSIS OF THE FINAL LEADERS' DEBATE. JOINING ME TO DISCUSS IT ALL IS FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL LEADER PAULA BENNETT, DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR MAIKI SHERMAN AND FORMER LABOUR LEADER DAVID CUNLIFFE. GREAT TO BE WITH YOU. FIRST OPPRESSIONS? I QUITE ENJOYED IT. ONE OF THE BEST WE HAVE SEEN. THEY CAME OUT WITH STRATEGIES. HAPPENS WAS DEFINITELY GOING TO GO FOR THE TRUST AND THE WET AND WHINY, AND HE WAS GOING TO REPEAT THOSE LINES, AND LUXON CAME OUT WITH WANTING TO LOOK LIKE A PRIME MINISTER AND SOMEBODY THAT HAD A VISION. I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T SEE CHIPPY; WE SAW LIPPY AND SNIPPY. YOU WOULD THRIVE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT. I AM NOT OPPOSED TO A BIT OF MONGREL. I AM NOT SURE WE SAW THE BEST OF THAT NIGHT. WE SAT HERE DURING THE FIRST DEBATE AND THE BIGGEST CRITICISM FOR CHRIS HIPKINS WAS THAT HE DIDN'T BRING THE MONGREL. HE DEFINITELY BROUGHT THAT ON THE SECOND; IN THIS THIRD, HE WAS THE ABSOLUTE TANIWHA. HE DOMINATED. IT CAN BE ARGUED THAT HE MIGHT HAVE PUSHED THE BOAT OUT A LITTLE BIT AT TIMES, AND I THINK YOU DID, BUT ACTUALLY OVERALL HE WAS VERY STRONG, AND LUXON HAD A LOT OF THE OXYGEN SUCKED OUT OF HIM. THERE WAS NO SPORT ANALOGIES TONIGHT, BUT IF IT WAS MUSIC, THERE WERE A LOT OF BASS NOTES AND NOT A LOT OF TRAVEL. HIPKINS WAS PLAYING THE LOUDEST. IT DID DROWN OUT THE OTHER SIDE AT TIMES. NOT ENOUGH TRAVEL PEOPLE VOTE ON HOPE MORE THAN FEAR. THIS IS AT THE MOMENT A VERY NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN BOTH WAYS. THAT LAST MINUTE MIGHT BE TOO LITTLE TOO LATE. I'M NOT SURE ANYTHING REALLY DISPELLED THE CRITICISMS OF NEGATIVITY IN THE CAMPAIGN. THAT WAS PROBABLY A CRITICISM THAT COULD BE A LEVEL THAT BOTH SIDES. EQUALLY, ALTHOUGH PERHAPS ONE SIDE WAS MORE EFFECTIVE ON THE SLEDGING THAN THE OTHER, I AM NOT SURE DID A LOT FOR TRUST EITHER WAY. LOOK AT THE LAST 30 SECONDS. WE HAD HIPKINS ` HAS 30 SECONDS WAS ALL ABOUT RUNNING DOWN NATIONAL WHEN IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DIVISION. INSTEAD WE HAD LUXON TALKING TO THE VOTERS ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT HE THOUGHT WERE MOST RELEVANT TO THEM AND GAVE AN ANSWER AS TO WHAT HE WOULD DO. I THOUGHT THAT SUMMED UP THE DEBATE. I DON'T BLAME HIPKINS. HE HAS NOTHING TO LOSE. HE HAD TO COME OUT FIRING. HE WAS CERTAINLY IMPROVED FROM THE FIRST DEBATE. BUT I THINK PEOPLE WANT TO SEE WHAT THAT PRIME MINISTER LOOKS LIKE ON SUNDAY MORNING AND I DON'T THINK HE SHOWED THAT. I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WE SAW THOSE TRUST NUMBERS AT THE START OF THE DEBATE. THE TRUST IS SITTING MOSTLY WITH HIPKINS AND NOT LUXON. SO HOW MUCH CREDIBILITY DID HE REALLY LOSE TONIGHT? AGAIN, HE HAD NOTHING TO LOSE. HE HAD TO BRING OUT THE MONGREL, PUT IT ON THE LINE. HE ONLY HAS ONE MORE DAY. HOW MUCH OF THE NEGATIVITY WILL REALLY EAT UP A LOT OF THE MEDIA HEADLINES QUESTION BUT NOT MUCH. A FEW ZINGERS, THOUGH. WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT SOON. I BET THE TERM BED LEG IS TRENDING. CHRIS LUXON TOOK A LOT OF TIME TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS AND DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF ONE-LINERS. CHRIS HIPKINS HAD BEEN SQUATTING UP A LOT ON THE NUMBERS. HE HAD HELPFUL STATISTICS, AND THEY ROLLED OFF THE TONGUE A LOT MORE THAN THEY DID IN THE FIRST DEBATE. SO NOT ENTIRELY LET NEGATIVE. CHRIS LUXON WAS TRYING TO BE PRIME MINISTERIAL AND PRESIDENTIAL, BUT YOU HAVE TO GET CUT THROUGH, AND I THINK THE INSTRUMENT ON ONE SIDE WAS A BIT LOUDER THAN THE OTHER. A GROUP OF UNDECIDED VOTERS HAVE BEEN WATCHING THE DEBATE AT THE PUB TONIGHT. WE WANTED TO GET A SENSE OF WHAT THEY THINK OF IT ALL. GARTH BRAY IS WITH THEM. KIA ORA, GARTH. KIA ORA. OVER HERE AT THE WATCH PARTY I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT SOME OF THE LINES DIDN'T LAND WELL. NOBODY PICKED UP WHAT CHRIS LUXON WAS PUTTING DOWN ABOUT TAYLOR SWIFT, AND NOBODY BELIEVED HE SPENDS $60 A WEEK AT THE SUPERMARKET. AS FOR HIPKINS, NOBODY HAD HEARD OF RUTH RICHARDSON, BUT THE LINE ABOUT BETTER LEGS REALLY CAUGHT EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION. IT WAS HARD FOR THEM TO GET A SENSE OF THE POLICIES. THEY TELL ME THAT THEY FELT IT GAVE A REAL FAIR PICTURE OF THE PERSONALITIES ` THE HOUR-LONG PRESSURE OF HAVING TO TRY TO GET ANSWERS GAVE THEM A SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE AS POTENTIAL LEADERS. IT IS PROBABLY CONFIRMED SOME OF THEIR IDEAS ABOUT WHO THEY MIGHT LIKE TO VOTE FOR, AND IT PROBABLY HASN'T SHIFTED IT TO MUCH IN THE DIRECTION OF VOTING FOR EITHER OF THEM. THAT IS VERY INTERESTING IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CAMPAIGN. WE LOOK AT THE EARLY VOTING NUMBERS COMPARED TO 2020, QUITE A BIT DOWN. ACCORDING TO THE LATEST 1 NEWS VERIAN POLL, LOTS OF VOTERS ARE STILL UNDECIDED. WHAT IS THE GROUP YOU ARE GATHERED THERE WITH? WHY ARE THEY UNDECIDED? WHY DON'T THEY KNOW WHO RUTH RICHARDSON IS? SOME OF THEM HAVE STARTED TO MAKE DECISIONS. SOME OF THEM HAVE GOT A CLEAR IDEA. BUT I THINK FOR SOME OF THEM IT IS THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE REALLY THOUGHT SERIOUSLY ABOUT THE VOTE AND MAY BE ABOUT VOTING OTHER THAN THE WAY THEIR FAMILIES HAVE. FOR SOME, THEY HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF THE WORK THEY DO, AND THAT IS SHAPING SOME OF THEIR VIEWS. THEY ARE MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT THEY SEE IN THEIR DAILY LIFE AT WORK. THAT IS... THEY ARE GRAPPLING WITH THAT. SOME OF THEM ARE JUST ABSORBING EVERYTHING AND SPENDING THEIR TIME ON REDDIT TRYING TO SOAK IT UP AND MAKE SOME RATIONAL DECISION. THEY FIND THERE IS SO MUCH INFORMATION TO ABSORB. OCCASIONS LIKE THIS ARE A CHANCE TO KIND OF CUT THROUGH THAT AND LOOK AT THE PERSON INVOLVED AND THEN MAYBE PERHAPS GO BACK AND TAKE A LOOK. A COUPLE OF THEM REALLY WISH WE HAD A FACT CHECKER SO WE COULD MAKE SENSE OF WHETHER IT IS 2 MILLION LESS OR 2 BILLION MORE, BUT HOPEFULLY OUR FRIENDS OVER THERE IN THE NEWS WILL PICK IT UP IN THE COMING DAYS. BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, IF YOU WERE TO POLL THE ROOM, WHO DO YOU THOSE WHO ARE SITTING WITH THOUGHT WON? OHH. THAT IS A REALLY HARD WANT TO CALL. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS MUCH RESPECT FOR THE WAY THAT LUXON WAS SORT OF SLIGHTLY EVADING SOME OF THE ANSWERS. THERE WAS A LOT OF FOCUS WHEN HIPKINS DRILLED DOWN INTO THE QUESTION FROM THE FLOOR FROM AGNES ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH REGARD TO JOBSEEKERS AND BENEFITS. BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT HAS BEEN A SPECTACLE MORE THAN SOMETHING THAT WILL SWAY THEM. THEY STILL HAVE THINKING TO DO. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. SPEAKING OF SPECTACLES, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A FEW KEY MOMENTS IN THIS EVENING'S DEBATE. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT A FEW KEY MOMENTS IN THIS EVENING'S DEBATE, THE FIRST OF WHICH WAS A TO-AND-FRO BETWEEN THE LEADERS ON DEALING WITH OTHER PARTIES AND THEIR OWN COLLEAGUES. LET'S TAKE A LISTEN. AND AS I SAID, I'LL PICK UP THE PHONE WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST IN ORDER TO AVOID THE CHAOS THAT WILL ENSUE WITH LABOUR, TE PATI MAORI AND THE GREENS. THE REAL CHAOS WOULD BE YOU TRYING TO DEAL WITH WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR AROUND A CABINET TABLE. THEY'D BE RUNNING CIRCLES AROUND YOU. NO DISRESPECT, CHRIS ` YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO MANAGE YOUR OWN CABINET. YOU LOST FIVE CABINET MINISTERS IN THIS YEAR ALONE. I'VE SET VERY HIGH STANDARDS FOR MY MINISTERS, AND WHEN THEY DON'T MEET THEM... ONLY WHEN THE MEDIA COMES TO YOU. ...THEY DON'T CONTINUE IN THEIR JOBS. BUT YOU'VE HAD FIVE CABINET MINISTERS GO UNDER YOUR LEADERSHIP, AND BY THE TIME` I THINK PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULDN'T BE THROWING STONES. NONE OF MY MPs BEAT PEOPLE UP WITH A BED LEG. I THINK IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY LOW MOMENT. ATTACK THE PERSON NOT THE POLICY. I THINK ACTUALLY WHAT RELUCTANT WAS TOOK THE HIGH ROAD. HE COULD HAVE SAID, I DON'T HAVE ONE THAT HAS BEEN ARRESTED. ONE THAT HAS BEEN MISLEADING, AS FAR AS THE MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITIES AND THINGS LIKE THAT. HE TOOK THE HIGH ROAD. I THOUGHT THAT WAS VITAL AND DESPICABLE. CHRISTOPHER LUXON DID NOT ATTACK THE POLICY. IT WASN'T THE POLICY. IN TERMS OF THAT ISSUE, AS I SAID BEFORE, WHAT WILL DOMINATE THE HEADLINES TOMORROW OUT OF THIS DEBATE WILL BE THAT LINE, AND THE NAME ON THAT WILL BE CHRIS HIPKINS FOR E IS THE ONE PEOPLE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT. I DON'T THINK THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH SHOCK AND HORROR TO REALLY PLAY IT DOWN FOR HIM TO WORK AGAINST HIM. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE AT HOME WOULD HAVE THOUGHT, ' THAT WAS A BIG CALL, LOW BLOW, BUT A STRONG ONE.' DITTY OVERSTEPPED THE LINE? I THINK HE DID. I THOUGHT HE WAS WINNING UNTIL THEN. I THOUGHT IT WAS A STEP TOO FAR. THERE IS PLENTY OF MUD TO THROW ON ALL SIDES. I LIKE POLITICS WHEN WE DO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES. SO ENOUGH ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF NOISE; WHAT WHERE THEY ACTUALLY OFFERING? BOTH SIDES HAVE HAD THEIR TROUBLES WITH PERSONNEL, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WILL CHANGE VOTERS MINDS. THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS, NOT JUST TO THE PRICE OF GROCERIES BUT TO A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS THAT I WORRYING THEM ABOUT THE WORLD AND THE WAY THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING IN THE WAY THE WORLD IS DETERIORATING, AND THEY WANT A VISION FOR HOPE. LABOUR HAD ASPIRATION AND NO DELIVERY; THEY ARE NOT SURE YET THAT NATIONAL HAS THE ASPIRATION. WE WILL HAVE PLENTY MORE AFTER THE BREAK. WE'LL HAVE PLENTY MORE WITH OUR PANEL AFTER THE BREAK HEI AKUANEI. STAY WITH US. - ALL: Hooray! - Hip hip! - Hooray! - Happy birthday, mate. - It's your bowel screening test. I've done mine. - WOMEN: Me too! - Uso, you've got this! # Pull the stick from the test. # Put it in the poo. Just follow the pictures... - Koro. You can 'poo' it! - # Put it in the pottle. Put on the date. # Don't delay or procrastinate. (ALL CHEER) # Early detection can save the day. # HOKI MAI E TE IWI ` WELCOME BACK. I'M HERE WITH OUR EXPERT POLITICAL INSIDERS, RATING HOW CHRIS HIPKINS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON PERFORMED IN THE FINAL LEADERS' DEBATE. I WANT TO LOOK AT ANOTHER HIGHLIGHT FROM TONIGHT'S DEBATE. HAVE A LISTEN. HOW MUCH DO YOU SPEND A WEEK ON FOOD? UM, I SPEND` I'M PERSONALLY SHOPPING EVERY SUNDAY DOWN IN WELLINGTON ` PROBABLY ABOUT 60 BUCKS. WHAT ABOUT YOU, CHRIS HIPKINS? (LAUGHTER) UM, CERTAINLY A LOT MORE THAN $60. WELL, I LIVE BY MYSELF IN MY APARTMENT IN WELLINGTON. IT WOULD BE PROBABLY $300 OR $400 A WEEK, IF I COMBINED ALL OF THE SPENDING THAT I DID ON FOOD IN A WEEK. I'M IN A POSITION WHERE` I APPRECIATE I DON'T FEEL THE COST OF LIVING AS MUCH AS EVERYBODY ELSE, BUT I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL IT, AND I'VE ACTUALLY MET WITH PARENTS WHO ACTUALLY ARE SKIPPING MEALS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD FOOD FOR THEIR KIRDS. I DON'T THINK YOU GOT THE QUESTION RIGHT. HE WAS DOING WHAT HIS SUPERMARKET SPEND IS ON A SUNDAY NIGHT INSTEAD OF WHAT HE DOES SPEND ON FOOD IN A WEEK, WHICH WE WOULD ALL KNOW IS FAR MORE THAN THAT. HE TRIED TO BRING IT BACK TO PEOPLE AND TRIED TO BRING UP BACK TO THE ISSUE OF BEING COST FOR OTHERS AND NOT HIM. THAT WAS PROBABLY A GOOD THING. HOW IMPORTANT ARE THESE REAL-LIFE EXAMPLES IN THE EYES OF VOTERS, PEOPLE WHO AREN'T NECESSARILY SUPER CONNECTED WITH THE CAMPAIGN? REALLY IMPORTANT. WHEN YOU USE TO INTERVIEW ME AND BE MEAN, I USED TO SIT THERE AND TRY AND THINK ABOUT THE COUPLE THAT WERE LIVING IN WEST AUCKLAND AND STRUGGLING AND WERE NOT GOING TO BE SITTING THERE LISTENING TO EVERY WORD YOU AND I SAID. KEEPING THEM FOREMOST IN YOUR MIND MEANS YOU KEEP IT REAL, DON'T GET ANGRY WITH THE INTERVIEWER WHEN THEY ARE DRILLING AND WE SAW TWO STRATEGIES TONIGHT. WE SAW HIPKINS, HIS WHOLE STRATEGY WAS TO DISCREDIT LUXTON AND KNOCKING DOWN. LUXTON SAID I NEED TO BE PRIME MINISTERIAL AND TALK TO THE VOTERS. BOTH OF THEM WERE JUSTIFIED THIS TIME IN THE CAMPAIGN. DO YOU THINK ANYTHING YOU SAW TONIGHT WERE MEANINGFULLY MOVE THE DIAL? I WOULD LIKE TO THINK SO, BECAUSE THIS WAS THE BEST DEBATE OF ALL THREE DEBATES. THAT IS NOT JUST MY BIAS; THAT IS HOW I FEEL. IT WAS VERY STRONG PERFORMANCE FROM BOTH OF THE LEADERS. A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A LOT AWAY FROM IT AT HOME. THOSE REAL-LIFE EXAMPLES TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONE SITTING AT HOME WHO HAVE TO FILL UP THE CAR, PAY FOR THE GROCERIES. WHEN PEOPLE HEAR SOMETHING LIKE I ONLY SPEND $60, I THINK HE PROBABLY JUST EATS AT WORK. NO ONE HAS A SUPERMARKET BILL AT $60, UNLESS YOU ARE BUYING PROTEIN BARS. WHAT DID YOU THINK? I AGREE IT WAS THE BEST OF THE THREE DEBATES. THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE. AT THE MOMENT WE HAVE REALLY HIGH UNDECIDEDS. WE HAVE A RECORD LOW LABOUR PLUS NATIONAL VOTE. IT IS SITTING AT AROUND 63, VOT IT IS SITTING AT AROUND 6364%. THAT SAYS THAT NEITHER OF THESE TWO LEADERS IS TRULY CONNECTING. MY PERSONAL VIEW IS LABOUR IS STRONGER ON ASPIRATIONS AND INTENT, BUT NATIONAL IS STRONGEST IN CRITICISING A FAILURE TO DELIVER RESULTS. THAT IS WHAT THE PUBLIC, THE FAMILY IN WEST AUCKLAND, IS WORRIED ABOUT. WHO HAS THE SOLUTIONS? ON NATIONAL SIDE, IT IS THE ECONOMY FIRST PROVIDES THE JOBS, THE INCOMES. LABOUR, SOME WOULD SAY RIGHTLY, NOBODY LEFT BEHIND. NATIONAL HAS THE BENEFIT OF USING LOCALISM. LABOUR HAS OVER CENTRALISED. WHEN PEOPLE ARE UNPICK THIS CAMPAIGN, THAT WILL BE THE THEMES AND THE NUMBERS. THE PUBLIC IS NOT BUYING EITHER RECIPE, WHICH IS WHY WINSTON, DAVID SEYMOUR AND THE GREENS ARE DOING SO WELL. IT IS A LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN THE PLANS THAT ARE BEING OFFERED. DO YOU AGREE? AT SOME LEVEL, BUT WE SAW A PARTY GET OVER 50% LAST TIME. VOTERS ARE SHOPPING AROUND MORE. THEY LIKE TO GIVE THE UNDERDOG, SEEING THE SMALLER PARTIES COME UP. THAT MIGHT BE PART OF THE REASON AS WELL. THERE IS NOT THAT FAITH IN THE TRACK RECORD OF LABOUR. YOU HEARD LUXTON PUSHING THAT TONIGHT, ON THE DELIVERY. WE ARE SEEING LUXON CHANGE IN THE LAST MONTH. HE HASN'T BEEN IN POLITICS FOR 12, MONT HE HASN'T BEEN IN POLITICS FOR 15 YEARS, LIKE SO OFTEN LEADERS HAVE, SO THAT IS TAKING TIME. WATCHING CHRISTOPHER LUXON, HE HAS COME INTO HIS OWN. HE DOES REALLY WELL INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE AT A GRASSROOTS LEVEL LIKE SHAKING HANDS, WHEREAS CHRIS HIPKINS IS THE POLAR OPPOSITE. YOU COULDN'T GET HYMNS TO SAY MORE THAN A FEW SENTENCES IN COMPARISON TO LUXON. FAILURE TO DELIVERY, IT WOULD HAVE HURT LABOUR TO HEAR THEY HADN'T DELIVERED IN TERMS OF BENEFITS. THAT IS THEIR BREAD-AND-BUTTER, AND THAT WAS STRONG CRITICISM FROM AGNES. MAYBE AGNES WILL BE BACK ON THE STAGE IN THREE YEARS TIME. ONE LINE'S CONTINUED TO HAUNT THE NATIONAL LEADER, AND IT MADE IT INTO TONIGHT'S DEBATE AS WELL, WITH CHRIS HIPKINS KEEN TO REPEAT IT BACK TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON. HERE WAS THAT MOMENT. I'M VERY, VERY PROUD OF THAT. THE INDEXATION OF BENEFITS FROM WAGES TO INFLATION, WHICH IS WHAT NATIONAL IS WANTING,K WILL SAVE THE GOVERNMENT $2 BILLION OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. THAT DEBATE OVER WHETHER IT BE A CUT, CHRISTOPHER LUXON WAS DANCING ON THE DETAIL. IT IS FORECAST TO SAVE THE GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH MONEY. GIVE ME YOUR FINAL TAKES. WHEN YOU REFLECT ON LABOUR'S CAMPAIGN, AS THE INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT, AS THE TRAILING PARTY AT THE MOMENT, WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE MADE MISTAKES? IS THERE SOMETHING THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT THEY DIDN'T? THE CAPTAIN'S CALL TO RULE OUT CAPITAL GAINS HAS COST TOWARDS THE GREENS. LABOUR HAS RUN A STRONG CAMPAIGN. YOU COULDN'T FAULT CHRIS HIPKINS' ENERGY AND TACTICAL NOUS. HE HAS BEEN A STRONG PERFORMING LEADER. LUXON HAS COME ACROSS AS LIKEABLE. HE HAS PUBLICLY TRIED TO STAY PRESIDENTIAL AND POSITIVE. THE SOCIAL MEDIA CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN NEGATIVE IN THE BACKGROUND. BOTH SIDES HAVE BEEN TRADING BLOWS. I DON'T THINK THE PUBLIC COMES OUT OF THIS FEELING THERE IS A SOLID PLAN EITHER WAY. THAT IS WHY WE WILL SEE THE TOTAL LABOUR PLUS NATIONAL VOTE IN HISTORIC LOWS. WHOEVER WINS, THEY BOTH NEED TO HAVE A THINK. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND INSIGHTS. KUA MUTU. THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR THIS EVENING. THANK YOU TO OUR PANEL, DAVID CUNLIFFE, MAIKI SHERMAN AND PAULA BENNETT. YOU CAN CATCH ANY MOMENTS YOU MISSED TONIGHT ON TVNZ+, AND I'LL BE BACK WITH JOHN CAMPBELL AND JESSICA MUTCH McKAY WITH AN ELECTION SPECIAL FROM 7 O'CLOCK ON SATURDAY NIGHT. DON'T FORGET TO VOTE BEFORE THEN. FROM THE TEAM, POMARIE ` GOODNIGHT. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR.