ATA MARIE ` GOOD MORNING. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU ` WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. COMING UP ` NEW ZEALAND IS CALLING FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE IN GAZA; WE SPEAK TO THE ISRAELI DEFENCE FORCE AND A U.N. WORKER ON THE FRONTLINES OF THIS CONFLICT AS IT INTENSIFIED OVERNIGHT. CLIMATE WAS A POOR COUSIN TO COST OF LIVING DURING THE ELECTION, SO WHAT COULD HAPPEN UNDER A NEW GOVERNMENT? AND 'BACKSTORY' IS BACK ` WITH AN MP WHO'S BEEN A FAMILIAR VOICE FOR FARMERS. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 ISRAEL IS THIS MORNING EXPANDING ITS GROUND OPERATIONS IN GAZA. TROOPS HAVE ENTERED GAZA FOR A SECOND NIGHT, AND CNN IS REPORTING A LARGE SERIES OF EXPLOSIONS IN GAZA CITY, OUTGOING TANK FIRE AND 'UNUSUAL, INTENSE AND SUSTAINED' MILITARY ACTIVITY FOR THE PAST FEW HOURS. LAST NIGHT, BEFORE THAT INCURSION BEGAN, I SPOKE TO MAJOR LIBBY WEISS ` SPOKESPERSON FOR THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE IN TEL AVIV ABOUT WHETHER A FULL GROUND INVASION IS IMMINENT. THE IDF IS PREPARING FOR A GROUND INVASION INTO GAZA; WE'VE SEEN TANKS MOVING INSIDE IN THE PAST 24 HOURS. IS PLANNING FINALISED FOR A FULL GROUND INVASION? AND IS THERE POLITICAL CONSENSUS ON WHETHER IT WILL DEFINITELY GO AHEAD? WELL, ANY DECISION AROUND A GROUND INVASION IS SOMETHING THAT THE POLITICAL ECHELON WOULD HAVE TO MAKE. WE IN THE IDF ARE CONTINUING TO PREPARE FOR WHATEVER DECISION MAY BE MADE. AND OF COURSE, THERE'S A VARIETY OF FACTORS THAT GO INTO MAKING THAT DECISION, BUT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE MILITARY, WE ARE PREPARING EVERY DAY, CONTINUOUSLY MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE IN A POSITION TO RESPOND TO ANY ORDER THAT WE MAY GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT. AND LIBBY, WHAT IS THE GOAL? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO DESTROY HAMAS? AND HOW WILL YOU KNOW, I SUPPOSE, WHEN YOU HAVE DISMANTLED HAMAS? WELL, AFTER THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th, IT'S VERY CLEAR TO EVERY ISRAELI THAT WE CAN NO LONGER LIVE WITH HAMAS AS A TERROR ORGANISATION NEXT DOOR TO US. WE'VE REALLY ADOPTED A NEW PARADIGM IN OUR THINKING NOW. AND FOR US, THE UNDERSTANDING IS A CLEAR ONE, AND THAT MEANS THAT HAMAS CAN NEVER BE IN ANY KIND OF POSITION OF POWER WITHIN THE GAZA STRIP TO CONTINUE LAUNCHING ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAELIS. AND THAT MEANS BOTH IN THE MILITARY SENSE, AS A TERROR ORGANISATION ` AND, OF COURSE, WE KNOW HOW MANY RESOURCES HAVE BEEN INVESTED IN HAMAS AS A TERROR ORGANISATION ` BUT ALSO IN THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE CAPACITY. AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th WAS THEIR GOAL, AND IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, THEY WILL DO THAT AGAIN AND WILL SLAUGHTER INNOCENT ISRAELIS AT ANY OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY HAVE. I WANT TO ASK YOU, LIBBY, ABOUT THE HOSTAGES, THOSE 200 PEOPLE WHO WERE TAKEN ON OCTOBER 7. DO YOU HAVE ANY UPDATE ON THEM AT ALL? WELL, WE KNOW THAT VERY FEW HAVE BEEN, UH` HAVE BEEN RELEASED, AND OF COURSE, WE'RE VERY HAPPY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN RELEASED, BUT THERE ARE 224 WHO ARE STILL BEING HELD, AND THE 224 RANGE FROM VERY, VERY, VERY YOUNG CHILDREN TO ELDERLY PEOPLE, CLEARLY CIVILIANS; FAMILIES... AND WE'RE DEEPLY, OF COURSE, CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR WELL-BEING. WE KNOW THAT HAMAS LAST WEEK RELEASED A VIDEO OF 21-YEAR-OLD MIA SCHEM, WHO WAS ONE OF THE HOSTAGES, AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR RELEASING THESE VIDEOS AND THEIR COMMUNICATION AROUND THE HOSTAGES IS, OF COURSE, A TYPE OF PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE THAT THEY'RE WAGING AGAINST THE PUBLIC, AND WE HOPE THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN JOIN US AS WE CALL TO HAMAS TO RELEASE THEM IMMEDIATELY. THAT IS THE FASTEST WAY THAT THEY CAN COME HOME SAFELY, IS FOR THEM TO BE RELEASED IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS OR TERMS. WELL, LIBBY, DOES A GROUND INVASION PUT THOSE HOSTAGES IN MORE DANGER? WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT'S A COMPLICATED OPERATIONAL REALITY. AND OF COURSE, WE HAVE TWO GOALS, AND THE GOALS ARE TO HAVE THOSE HOSTAGES COME HOME ` THEY ARE A TOP PRIORITY FOR US; WE THINK ABOUT THEM AS A COUNTRY CONSTANTLY, AND WE HAVE VERY FEW DEGREES OF SEPARATION TO THEM. WE'RE A SMALL COUNTRY ` MANY OF US KNOW PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HELD HOSTAGE OR PEOPLE WHO KNOW PEOPLE. SO WE ARE` OUR HEARTS ARE WITH THEM, AND WE ARE THINKING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME. AND OF COURSE, WE HAVE ANOTHER GOAL, AND THAT GOAL IS TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS CAN NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. AND BOTH OF THOSE GOALS EXIST, AND WE ARE OPERATING TO ACCOMPLISH BOTH OF THOSE. WELL, THERE'S` THE BOMBARDMENT NOW WHICH HAS BEEN HAPPENING HAS CERTAINLY BEEN HAVING AN IMPACT IN GAZA. THE HAMAS-CONTROLLED HEALTH MINISTRY THERE SAYS 6000 PALESTINIANS IN GAZA HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THIS BOMBARDMENT SO FAR, AND THE U.N. IS REPORTING THAT A MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED, THAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO EVACUATE NORTHERN GAZA BUT THEY'RE JUST NOT ABLE TO, AND THE U.N. IS SAYING THAT THIS IS QUICKLY TURNING THERE INTO HELL ON EARTH. WELL, FIRST, I WOULD BE VERY SCEPTICAL OF ANY FIGURES THAT HAMAS IS PUTTING OUT, AND WE HAVE CALLED FOR SEVERAL DAYS FOR THE RESIDENTS IN THE NORTHERN GAZA STRIP TO MOVE SOUTH. THAT WAS A MESSAGE THAT THE IDF PROVIDED. YOU CAN IMAGINE IT'S TO OUR OPERATIONAL DETRIMENT TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT, BUT WE ARE DOING IT BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY PARTY IN THIS CONFLICT THAT HAS ANY INTEREST IN MINIMISING THE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS. IT IS UP TO HAMAS, AS THE SOVEREIGN WITHIN THE GAZA STRIP, TO FACILITATE THE MOVEMENT OF CIVILIANS AWAY FROM THE AREAS THAT WE HAVE IDENTIFIED, AND THEY ARE NOT DOING THAT. AND IT SPEAKS TO, I THINK, THE COMPLETE LACK OF REGARD THAT THEY HAVE FOR THEIR OWN CIVILIANS WITHIN THE GAZA STRIP. AND JUST AS` FOR CONTRAST, WE HAVE EVACUATED OUR CIVILIANS FROM THE SOUTH AS WELL AS FROM THE NORTH ` MORE THAN 200,000 ISRAELIS ` WITH THE GOAL OF KEEPING THEM AWAY FROM THE VIOLENCE. AND IT'S... IT'S DISTRESSING TO UNDERSTAND THAT HAMAS, AS THE SOVEREIGN WITHIN THE GAZA STRIP, NOT ONLY IS NOT` THEY'RE NOT EVACUATING THEIR CIVILIANS; THEY'RE MAKING IT VERY HARD FOR THE CIVILIANS TO INDEPENDENTLY EVACUATE. BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE NEEDS TO BE PUT ON HAMAS TO ALLOW CIVILIANS TO MOVE AND TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS THAT WE PROVIDED THEM SEVERAL DAYS AGO. WELL, THERE IS GROWING INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, INCLUDING FROM OUR OWN GOVERNMENT HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE TO THE MILITARY CONFLICT IN GAZA TO ESTABLISH THOSE HUMANITARIAN CORRIDORS ` FOR WATER, FOOD, FUEL, FOR EXAMPLE; MEDICINES AND OTHER BASICS OF LIFE. SO FAR, ISRAEL IS REFUSING TO DO THAT. WHY? WELL, WE ARE FACILITATING THE ENTRANCE OF HUMANITARIAN AID THAT IS COMING IN, AND WE KNOW THAT HAMAS HAS FUEL. WE KNOW THAT FUEL THAT WAS IN THE STRIP IS BEING TAKEN BY HAMAS FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES. BUT I THINK IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE THAT WE A) DON'T WANT TO ALLOW HAMAS TO HAVE ASSETS THAT THEY NEED TO CONTINUE TO LAUNCH TERROR AGAINST ISRAELIS; AND WE HAVE A VERY CLEAR MISSION, AND WE CANNOT ALLOW HAMAS ANY TIME TO REORGANISE, TO REGATHER THEMSELVES, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN WHAT THEY WILL DO. WE HAVE SEEN` THE WORLD HAS SEEN IT. WE HAVE SEEN AS THEY'VE BROADCASTED IT VERY LOUDLY AND PROUDLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, AND THAT IS SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS, KILL THEM IN THEIR BEDS. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE CAN LIVE NEXT TO THIS SIDE BY SIDE. AND OF COURSE WE WILL FACILITATE THE MOVEMENT OF GOODS INTO THE CIVILIANS WITHIN THE GAZA STRIP, BUT HAMAS IN NO WAY CAN EXPECT TO HAVE A BREAK OR ANY TIME TO REGROUP AND TO CONTINUE THEIR ACTS OF TERROR AGAINST US. WELL, YOU WILL KNOW, LIBBY, THAT FUEL IS BECOMING CRITICAL NOW. IT PROVIDES ELECTRICITIES` UH, ELECTRICITY THAT POWERS HOSPITALS; IT IS NEEDED FOR WATER AND SEWAGE SYSTEMS AND TO ALLOW FOR CLEAN DRINKING WATER. PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE NOW DRINKING CONTAMINATED WATER. IT'S QUICKLY BECOMING A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE THERE. IS IT REALISTIC, I SUPPOSE, TO EXPECT HAMAS TO GIVE THAT FUEL, POSSIBLY, TO THOSE HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES? ARE THEY EVEN ALLOWED TO TAKE IT FROM HAMAS, THOSE INTERNATIONAL AID AGENCIES THERE? WELL, FIRST, IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT FOOD, WATER AND MEDICATION IS COMING INTO THE GAZA STRIP. BUT I THINK THE QUESTION OF WHETHER IT'S REALISTIC TO EXPECT OF HAMAS IS A QUESTION THAT HAMAS NEEDS TO ANSWER AND ACKNOWLEDGE AS THE LEADERS OF THE GAZA STRIP. I MEAN, THEY HAVE ELECTRICITY. WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE THAT. WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE FUEL, AND THE RESPONSIBILITY AND THE PRESSURE HERE NEEDS TO BE ON HAMAS TO CARE FOR THE WELL-BEING OF THEIR OWN CIVILIANS. BUT THERE CAN'T BE ANY EXPECTATION THAT WE ARE GOING TO PROVIDE HAMAS WITH THE RESOURCES TO CONTINUE ATTACKING OUR CIVILIANS. AND IN MY VIEW, IT IS ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO PRESSURE HAMAS AND TO VALIDATE THAT THEY ARE USING THE SUPPLIES THAT THEY HAVE` THAT THEY'RE TAKING THE SUPPLIES THAT THEY HAVE AND PROVIDING IT TO THE CIVILIANS. OUR GOVERNMENT AS WELL, LIBBY, IS ASKING FOR THESE SORT OF SAFE ZONES, DESIGNATED SAFE AREAS, THAT ARE STRICTLY OFF LIMITS AS TARGETS TO PROTECT INNOCENT CIVILIANS FROM BEING KILLED IN THIS CONFLICT. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT ISRAEL IS CONSIDERING? WELL, WE HAVE UPDATED AND WE'VE` WE'VE ASKED THE CIVILIANS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE STRIP TO MOVE TO THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE STRIP. WE'VE EXPRESSED THAT THAT IS A SAFER AREA FOR THEM TO BE RIGHT NOW AT THIS STAGE OF THE CONFLICT, AND WE ABSOLUTELY ENCOURAGE THEM, AND WE ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO JOIN IN OUR CALLS FOR THOSE CIVILIANS TO MOVE TO AREAS TO WHICH WE HAVE DESIGNATED AS BEING SAFER AT THIS POINT. I WANT TO ASK YOU JUST ONE FINAL QUESTION. YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS THAT GOVERNMENTS AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AGREE THAT ISRAEL ABSOLUTELY HAS A RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF. WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7 WAS BARBARIC ` THEY WERE MASS ATROCITIES CARRIED OUT BY HAMAS' MILITARY WING. BUT IS THIS BOMBARDMENT AND A POSSIBLE GROUND INVASION... IS THAT A PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE BY ISRAEL? ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. AND I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO EMPHASISE THIS. WE DID NOT START THIS CONFLICT. THE CITIZENS IN ISRAEL WOKE UP ON OCTOBER 7th TO A MASSACRE THAT WAS TAKING PLACE WITHIN OUR HOMES. WE HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. WE CANNOT IN ANY WAY BOW OUR HEADS TO HAMAS, BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT THEY WILL DO. THEY WILL DECAPITATE US. WE SAW` WE SAW IT HAPPEN. WE CANNOT LIVE WITH AN ENEMY LIKE THIS NEXT DOOR, THAT NOT ONLY VOCALLY EXPRESSES THEIR GOAL OF WANTING TO WIPE US OFF THE MAP BUT IS PROUD TO BROADCAST IT AS THEY ARE DOING IT, AS THEY SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS. AND I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT ANY COUNTRY ON EARTH WOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH THAT KIND OF THREAT NEXT DOOR AND WOULD NOT RESPOND TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PROTECT ITS CIVILIANS. AND THAT'S` THAT'S WHAT WE WILL DO. WELL, MAJOR LIBBY WEISS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE THIS MORNING. THANK YOU. OVERNIGHT, GAZA HAS BEEN ROCKED BY INTENSIVE AIRSTRIKES, LOSING COMMUNICATION LINKS AND INTERNET. AID AGENCIES ARE WARNING OF AN IMPENDING HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE THERE. LAST NIGHT, I SPOKE TO HECTOR SHARP ` HE'S A KIWI AND HEAD OF LEGAL AT THE UNITED NATIONS RELIEF AND WORKS AGENCY IN GAZA. GOOD MORNING. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE CONDITIONS IN GAZA RIGHT NOW? THE CONDITIONS IN GAZA ` WE HAVE HALF A MILLION INTERNALLY DISPLACED PEOPLE SHELTERING IN OUR FACILITIES. AND WE'RE UNABLE TO PROVIDE THEM WITH THEIR BASIC NEEDS. WE HAVE ANOTHER 1.5 MILLION IN THE COMMUNITY THAT ARE TRYING TO FIND PLACES TO SHELTER. THERE IS NO PLACE THAT IS SAFE. THAT IS THE SAFETY SITUATION. THE SANITATION, OVERCROWDING, THE LACK OF BASIC NECESSITIES COMPOUNDS IT INTO A VERY SIGNIFICANT HUMANITARIAN CRISIS. WE KNOW THAT FUEL IS CRITICAL TO SUSTAIN LIFE THERE RIGHT NOW AND IT IS RUNNING OUT. IT PROVIDES CLEAN WATER, POWER FOR HOSPITALS. BUT THAT FUEL IS IN SHORT SUPPLY? CORRECT. WE HAVE BEEN SHORT ON FUEL FROM THE START AND WE HAVE DONE OUR UTMOST TO RATION THAT TO CONTINUE SERVICES LIKE DESALINATION PLANTS, BAKERIES AND WATER WELLS. NOW WE ARE AT A CRISIS POINT WHERE IF WE DON'T GET FUEL IN THE NEXT HOURS, WE WON'T BE ABLE TO OFFER SERVICES THAT WE NEED TO. WHAT HAPPENS THEN, HECTOR? TO BE HONEST, I'M NOT SURE. WE JUST HAVE TO HOPE WE DO NOT REACH THAT POINT. AS I SAID, I BELIEVE THAT WHEN WE REACH THAT POINT THAT THE WORLD WILL SIT UP AND SAY, NOW WE WILL SEND FUEL, BUT IT WILL TAKE DAYS FOR THAT TO BE ORGANISED, AND IT WILL BE TOO LATE. TO PUT IT TO GRAVITY, I MYSELF HAVE VISITED A HOSPITAL WHERE THERE ARE 50,000 PEOPLE SHELTERING AND THOUSANDS OF PATIENTS WHO NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION INCLUDING PREMATURELY BORN BABIES. THAT REQUIRES ELECTRICITY. YOU CANNOT RUN A HOSPITAL WITHOUT ELECTRICITY. IF THAT ELECTRICITY GOES OFF, WE ARE LOOKING AT A SITUATION WHERE THERE COULD BE A MASS CASUALTY INCIDENT THERE. ISRAEL IS SO FAR REFUSING TO ALLOW FUEL TO BE BROUGHT INTO GAZA BECAUSE IT SAYS IT MAY BE USED BY HAMAS. IT SAYS THAT HAMAS HAS STOCKPILES OF FUEL THAT IT COULD RELEASE. WHAT IS THE SITUATION THAT YOU'RE FACING? WE ARE RUNNING A HUMANITARIAN OPERATION. WE DON'T HAVE ANY OVERSIGHT OVER WHAT OTHER PARTIES HAVE. WE ARE COMMUNICATING THAT WE AS THE UNITED NATIONS, INCLUDING OUR PARTNERS, DO NOT HAVE THE FUEL THAT WE NEED FOR OUR OPERATIONS. IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE FOR OPERATIONS OR ORGANISATIONS LIKE YOURS TO TAKE FUEL FROM HAMAS? WE DO NOT HAVE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WOULD PROVIDE FOR THAT. THE UN IS IMPARTIAL AND INDEPENDENT AND DOES NOT TAKE SIDES WITH EITHER PARTY OF THE CONFLICT. IT WOULDN'T BE SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD BE PURSUING. THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE TO GAZA THROUGH THE UN. AND WE NEED THE TOOLS TO DO THAT, LIKE FUEL. NEW ZEALAND AND OTHER COUNTRIES ARE CALLING FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE FOR AID TO FLOW AND PEOPLE TO EVACUATE FROM THE NORTH. WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD THAT MAKE? WOULD IT MAKE MATERIAL DIFFERENCE? I SAW THE STATEMENT. I WOULD SAY THAT NEW ZEALAND HAS A PROUD HISTORY OF QUIET DIPLOMACY. IT WAS NEW ZEALAND'S WORK ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL IN 2016 WHICH LED TO THE FIRST RESOLUTION CONDEMNING ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK. WE'VE ALWAYS STOOD VERY LOUDLY AND VERY PROUDLY ON THE SIDE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW. THEREFORE I WAS SURPRISED TO READ THE STATEMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT, BY MY GOVERNMENT THAT CALLS FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE RATHER THAN A CEASEFIRE. YOU THINK IT WASN'T STRONG ENOUGH? MY PERSONAL VIEW AS A NEW ZEALANDER ` YES, MY OFFICIAL VIEW AS A UN REPRESENTATIVE IS THAT WE ARE IMPARTIAL AND WE DON'T GET INVOLVED IN ISSUES OF POLITICS. IT'S DIFFICULT WHEN YOU ARE IN A WAR ZONE. WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN NORTHERN GAZA? ARE PEOPLE BEING PREVENTED FROM LEAVING? COMMUNICATION IS VERY DIFFICULT. THE TELECOM SERVICE HAS BEEN DOWN FOR A NUMBER OF DAYS. THERE IS NO INTERNET. SO GETTING INFORMATION IS DIFFICULT. WE USE THE SAME SOURCES THAT YOU HAVE IN TERMS OF MEDIA ON THE GROUND. BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF PEOPLE BEING PREVENTED. WE ARE READY TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE TO PEOPLE. OUR MANDATE IS TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE WHEREVER THEY ARE IN GAZA. I WAS WONDERING, DOES EGYPT HAVE A GREATER ROLE TO PLAY HERE? COULD THEY FACILITATE THE DELIVERY OF MORE AID SUPPLIES OR FUEL FOR EXAMPLE? THE EGYPTIANS HAVE A KEY ROLE TO PLAY. AND I BELIEVE THAT ALL SURROUNDING COUNTRIES ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO FACILITATE THE ENTRY OF AID. I WON'T COMMENT ON SPECIFIC RESPONSES OF INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES, BUT I AM AWARE OF HIGH-LEVEL STRATEGISING TO HELP THE PEOPLE OF GAZA INCLUDING ON THE EGYPTIAN SIDE. IN TERMS OF OTHER AID GETTING THROUGH, IT IS JUST A TRICKLE, ISN'T IT? IT IS INSUFFICIENT TO SUPPORT WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE RIGHT NOW. ABSOLUTELY. THE UN HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ON THIS. 14 TRUCKS A DAY ` THIS IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS. BEFORE THE CONFLICT WE HAD AN AVERAGE OF 500 TRUCKS COMING INTO GAZA ON A DAILY BASIS. GAZA HAS BEEN UNDER A BLOCKADE FOR ALMOST 15 YEARS AND IS RELIANT ON IMPORTS. AND THOSE HAVE STOPPED LARGELY FOR TWO WEEKS. WE'VE BEEN CALLING FOR MORE AID TO COME THROUGH. WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE FRUITS OF THAT ADVOCACY YET. WE HAVE JUST SPOKEN TO THE ISRAELI DEFENCE FORCE WHO ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT A GROUND INVASION. HOW IS THAT SITTING WITH PEOPLE IN GAZA RIGHT NOW? I THINK FROM THE START OF THE CONFLICT THERE HAS BEEN A GENERAL LEVEL OF FEAR ABOUT A GROUND INVASION. THE LAST GROUND INVASION HAD SEVERE HUMANITARIAN CONSEQUENCES, SO WE ARE CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE, WHICH WOULD HALT THAT. THOSE EFFORTS CONTINUE. FINALLY, WHAT DO YOU WANT NEW ZEALANDERS TO UNDERSTAND? IT CAN FEEL VERY FAR AWAY, BUT WE ARE SEEING ALL OF THESE HORRIFYING IMAGES. WHAT YOU WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA? I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. THE FIRST STEP IS TO NOT TURN AWAY. TAKE THAT INFORMATION AND ACT ACCORDINGLY. NEW ZEALAND IS A KEY PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. WE'VE ALWAYS STOOD ON THE SIDE OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT THE PROUD HISTORY CONTINUES. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. YOU'RE VERY WELCOME. GOOD TO SPEAK WITH YOU. AND WE HAVE HAD REPORTS THIS MORNING THAT UN WORKERS IN GAZA HAD BEEN KILLED IN THAT MILITARY ACTION OVERNIGHT. BUT WE HAVE CONFIRMED THAT HECTOR IS SAFE. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA ` WE'RE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL. AND WE HEAR FROM ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS FEARING FOR THEIR FAMILIES IN THE CONFLICT. WHILE NEW ZEALAND MIGHT FEEL FAR AWAY FROM THE CONFLICT IN GAZA, ITS IMPACT STRETCHES RIGHT INTO OUR COMMUNITY. FINN HOGAN AND GRAY GIBSON SPOKE WITH KIWI PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS FEARING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES ` AND A WARNING ` SOME OF THE IMAGES IN THIS STORY ARE DISTRESSING. (WOMAN SPEAKS ARABIC ON PHONE) THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW TIMES DUNEDIN MED STUDENT AHMED ABUSALEEQ HAS BEEN ABLE TO SPEAK WITH HIS MOTHER IN GAZA. SPEAKS ARABIC: AHMED'S MOTHER IS SAFE FOR THE MOMENT, BUT NOT EVERYONE WAS SO LUCKY. ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE CONFLICT, MY COUSIN WAS KILLED, AND A FEW DAYS AFTER, SOME OF MY FRIENDS WERE KILLED. A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT I'VE SPOKEN TO IN GAZA WHEN I MANAGED TO, THEY'VE JUST GIVEN UP ON LIFE. THEY'VE JUST` I MEAN, THEY SAID TO ME, 'WE'VE GIVEN UP ON LIFE.' AND WHAT SHE WAS SAYING ` I WAS ASKING HER IF THERE WAS A MESSAGE THAT YOU WANT ME TO, YOU KNOW, TELL PEOPLE. AND SHE'LL SAYING, 'WELL, I MEAN, GAZA HAS BEEN DESTROYED.' ACROSS THE WORLD, ANOTHER KIWI ON ANOTHER SIDE OF THE CONFLICT SHELTERS AT HOME. THE ROCKETS ARE CONTINUING TO FALL. LIKE, YOU KNOW, THIS ZOOM MIGHT CUT OUT IN A MINUTE BECAUSE I MIGHT HAVE TO GO RUN TO THE SAFE ROOM AND TAKE MY FAMILY. THEY HAVE BEEN CONTINUING TO BE FIRED EVERY SINGLE DAY AT ISRAEL. AT 18, TALIA DEKEL MOVED FROM HAMILTON TO ISRAEL AND STARTED A FAMILY. I'M ACTUALLY REALLY, REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH OF THIS ENTIRE GENERATION AND THE GENERATION OF MY CHILDREN. THEY'VE NEVER HAD TO EXPERIENCE ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE. AFTER SERVING IN THE IDF, SHE'S NO STRANGER TO CONFLICT, BUT SAYS ATROCITIES BEING POSTED TO SOCIAL MEDIA ADDS A NEW DIMENSION TO THE TRAUMA. BUT YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM IT. YOU CAN'T GET AWAY FROM IT; PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT. YOU KNOW, AN OLDER SIBLING WILL TELL A YOUNGER SIBLING, AND THAT SIBLING WILL TELL A SMALLER SIBLING. YOU KNOW, MY 3-YEAR-OLD IS ASKING ME WHEN HE'S GOING TO COME GET STOLEN FROM HIS BED AT NIGHT. MY GRANDPARENTS' GENERATION WHO WENT THROUGH THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT TELL THESE STORIES. THEY KEPT THEM INSIDE IN AN EFFORT TO PROTECT, PROTECT THE NEXT GENERATION. WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. WE'RE LIVING IN THE INFORMATION AGE. SOMETHING ISRAELI ENGINEER RICARDO KNOWS ALL TOO WELL. HE FOUND THESE PICTURES OF HIS NEPHEW'S KIDNAPPING, FILMED BY THE HOSTAGE TAKERS AND POSTED TO TELEGRAM. THERE ARE NO WORDS THAT CAN EXPRESS WHAT YOU CAN FEEL IN YOUR GUTS ONCE YOU SEE YOUR NEPHEW THAT YOU KNOW YOU LOVE BEING IN THIS SITUATION. OMER WAS ATTENDING THE SUPERNOVA MUSIC FESTIVAL WITH FRIENDS WHEN HAMAS MILITANTS ATTACKED. HE WAS IN THIS SHELTER. HE SUCCEEDED TO GET OUT JUST A SECOND BEFORE THE TERRORISTS THREW THREE GRENADES INSIDE THE SHELTER. WHERE EVERYBODY DIED. HE WENT THERE WITH A FRIEND OF HIM. HE WENT THERE WITH KIM, WHICH WAS A FRIEND. UNFORTUNATELY KIM DIED. KIM DIDN'T SURVIVE. SHE WAS SHOT. DESPITE THE HORROR, RICCARDO HOLDS ON TO HOPE. OMER, WE KNOW THAT YOU'RE ALIVE. WE WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU, AND, OMER, AND WE WILL GET YOU OUT. DON'T WORRY. WE WILL GET YOU OUT. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME. HOLD ON. BUT AS THE CONFLICT SPREADS, SO TOO DOES THE SUFFERING. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA IS ONE THING, BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE ON THE WEST BANK ` THERE'S CLOSE TO 100 PALESTINIANS BEING KILLED SINCE THE 7TH OF OCTOBER HERE IN PALESTINE. AND MANY OF THOSE CHILDREN. SO IT'S NOT JUST RESTRICTED TO GAZA. BROTHER PETER BRAY FROM TARANAKI IS NOW THE VICE CHANCELLOR OF BETHLEHEM UNIVERSITY AND HAS WITNESSED THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS. WHAT'S OBVIOUS IN WHAT'S BEING DISPLAYED IN GAZA IS REVENGE. AND THEN WHEN YOUNG PEOPLE SEE THEIR RELATIVES AND THEIR FAMILY BEING KILLED, THE IMMEDIATE REACTION IS HATRED. AND SO HOW DO WE` YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE MOVE OUT OF THAT? AND I TALK ABOUT HOPE CONSTANTLY HERE. HOPE IS NOT THE CONVICTION THAT SOMETHING IS GOING TO GET BETTER. IT'S THE CERTAINTY THAT SOMETHING IS WORTH DOING NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS. A HUGELY COMPLEX AND RAPIDLY CHANGING SITUATION. WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW IT. A MURI AKE NEI ` COMING UP, IT'S OUR POLITICAL PANEL. BUT FIRST ` WHAT NEXT FOR THE CLIMATE UNDER A NEW GOVERNMENT? HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. TWO TOPICS DOMINATED THE ELECTION ` COST OF LIVING AND CRIME. BUT THERE WAS ANOTHER ` CLIMATE ` THAT WAS DEBATED AROUND THE EDGES. NOW A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT COULD MEAN A RAFT OF CHANGES TO CLIMATE AND ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY, INCLUDING BIG CUTS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION. CEO OF THE WORLDWIDE FUND FOR NATURE DR KAYLA KINGDON-BEBB IS CONCERNED, AND SHE JOINS ME NOW. THANKS FOR COMING IN. MORENA. MORENA. LET'S START WITH YOU. THE DECREASING BIODIVERSITY IN OUR OCEANS IS A BIG PASSION OF YOURS. YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK ON THAT. WHY IS THAT? THAT'S TRUE. WELL, NEW ZEALAND HAS THE FIFTH-LARGEST OCEAN TERRITORY ON THE PLANET, AND IT'S HOME TO UPWARDS OF 80% OF OUR INDIGENOUS BIODIVERSITY. IT'S AN INCREDIBLE TREASURE FOR THE COUNTRY. AND WE KNOW OUR OCEANS ARE IN TROUBLE. I MEAN, YOU LOOK OUTSIDE IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU, AT TIKAPA MOANA ` WE'VE SEEN THE HAURAKI GULF IN A SUSTAINED STATE OF DECLINE. POPULAR FISHING SPOTS ALL OVER ARE GOING FUNCTIONALLY EXTINCT. AND THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM. SO` THE REASON I ASK ABOUT THAT IS BECAUSE YOU WERE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, DEVELOPING POLICY AROUND THOSE MARINE PROTECTION AREAS, WEREN'T YOU? AND... BUT FISHING IS A BIG INDUSTRY FOR NEW ZEALAND. HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT? THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S A COMMON MISCONCEPTION THAT MARINE PROTECTED AREAS ARE BAD FOR COMMERCIAL AND RECREATIONAL FISHERIES. THAT IS CATEGORICALLY INCORRECT. WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES IS WHERE YOU HAVE LARGE-SCALE HIGHLY PROTECTED MPAs, THEY BENEFIT COMMERCIAL FISHERIES, BECAUSE THEY IMPROVE FOOD SECURITY AND THEY ALSO IMPROVE OUR RESILIENCE TO CLIMATE CHANGE. SO YOU THINK THAT THE TWO WORK ALONGSIDE OF EACH OTHER? THEY CAN. OK. AND OBVIOUSLY, INSHORE IS ANOTHER` IT'S ANOTHER QUESTION. YOU WOULD USE INSHORE MPAs, ONES CLOSER TO THE COASTLINE, FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. AND, YES` OF COURSE. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'D ALSO SAY THAT RECREATIONAL FISHERIES` FISHERS SEE A HALO EFFECT, USUALLY, FROM MARINE RESERVES. OK. THE REASON I'M GOING DOWN THIS LINE IS BECAUSE YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK AS POLICY ADVISOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, BUT UNDER THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT, THERE ARE PROPOSED CUTS BY NATIONAL ` IT WANTS TO CUT 6.5% OUT OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE, AND IT HIGHLIGHTED THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AS A PLACE FOR SAVING. SO, YOU ONLY RECENTLY LEFT DOC. IS IT BLOATED? IT IS NOT. WHEN THE DEPARTMENT WAS FOUNDED IN 1987... SINCE THAT TIME, IT'S BEEN CHRONICALLY UNDERFUNDED. THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION'S MANDATE IS IMMENSE. IT MANAGES A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY, NOT TO MENTION A HUGE PORTION OF OUR MARINE TERRITORY, FOR LESS THAN 1% OF GDP, AND IT'S BEEN DOING IT FOR THE LAST 35 YEARS ON THE SMELL OF AN OILY RAG. I THINK` I WOULD ALSO NOTE` CAN YOU ARGUE THAT IT'S THE SMELL OF AN OILY RAG WHEN ITS BUDGET'S GONE UP 85% SINCE 2017? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, THE DEPARTMENT IS FACING A NUMBER OF THREATS. AND ITS MANDATE IS NOT JUST AROUND PROTECTING OUR THREATENED BIODIVERSITY; IT'S ALSO CRITICAL TO DRIVING TOURISM. I MEAN, PRIOR TO COVID, INTERNATIONAL TOURISM WAS NEW ZEALAND'S BIGGEST EXPORT, AND PEOPLE COME TO THIS COUNTRY TO SEE OUR OUTSTANDING WILD LANDSCAPES AND OUR UNIQUE BIODIVERSITY, AND DOC HAS A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN ENSURING THAT CAN CONTINUE. BUT DOC'S BUDGET IS THE BIGGEST IT'S EVER BEEN ` ABOUT $880m AT THE MOMENT. YOU POINT OUT THAT TOURISM IS A MASSIVE EARNER; IS THAT NOT ENOUGH TO COPE WITH THE TOURISM INFLUX AND PRESERVE THAT BIODIVERSITY AND THAT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, GREEN NEW ZEALAND IMAGE? LOOK, IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATE OF BIODIVERSITY ACROSS THE BOARD IN AOTEAROA, IT'S DECLINING, AND THAT'S ON PUBLIC CONSERVATION LANDS AND IT'S OFF OF IT. ON A GOOD YEAR ` NOT A MAST YEAR, WHEN YOU HAVE A SUPERABUNDANCE OF BEECH SEED ` THE DEPARTMENT'S ABLE TO DO SUSTAINED PREDATOR CONTROL ON AROUND 2% OF PCL. 2%. WHAT'S PCL? OH, PUBLIC CONSERVATION LAND. OK, YEAH. SO 2% OF THE CONSERVATION ESTATE. WE ARE LUCKY THAT MORE OF OUR SPECIES ARE NOT FUNCTIONALLY EXTINCT IN SOME OF THOSE AREAS. SO IF THESE CUTS GO THROUGH ` 6.5%, SAY, OFF DOC'S BUDGET ` WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I MEAN, THIS YEAR, THE DEPARTMENT IS ALREADY EXPECTED TO GO INTO A LOWER BASELINE BECAUSE THE BIG INVESTMENT OUT OF BUDGET 2018 IS COMING TO A CLOSE. RIGHT. SO YOU'RE TALKING` LIKE THE JOBS FOR NATURE FUND AND THINGS LIKE THAT ` THEY'RE ALL COMING TO A CLOSE? ALSO THE BIG INVESTMENT THAT HAPPENED IN BUDGET 2018. OK. OH, OK. BUT, YOU KNOW... MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT PROJECTIONS ARE IN THE FINANCIAL YEAR 2025, DOC'S GOING TO BE LOOKING AT AN $85m STRUCTURAL DEFICIT. THAT'S ENORMOUS. THE DEPARTMENT CAN'T SUSTAIN ANOTHER 6.5% ON TOP OF THAT ` ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE BEING ASKED TO RUN ANOTHER GREAT WALK. GREAT WALKS DO NOT MAKE DOC MONEY. THEY ARE THEY ARE LOSS LEADERS. OK. WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE WAY THAT CLIMATE IN GENERAL WAS DEBATED DURING THE ELECTION, OR NOT? TO BE HONEST, I WAS ASTONISHED AT HOW SILENT PEOPLE WERE ON THE DEBATE. I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN THE MOST EXPENSIVE NATURAL DISASTER IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY THIS YEAR WITH CYCLONE GABRIELLE. THERE WAS INCREDIBLE, TRAGIC LOSS OF LIFE AND HOMES AND LIVELIHOODS THROUGH REGIONAL FLOODING IN TE TAI TOKERAU AND TAIRAWHITI AND TAMAKI MAKAURAU. THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A CLIMATE ELECTION. AND` WHAT HAPPENED? WELL, I MEAN, SHORT-TERM PRESSURES AROUND COST OF LIVING ARE MORE POLITICALLY SELLABLE, I SUPPOSE. BUT WHAT IS REALLY CONCERNING TO ME, ACTUALLY, IS THAT THE KIND OF COMMITMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE MAJOR PARTIES AROUND CLIMATE HAVE NOT BEEN BACKED UP BY SUBSTANTIVE POLICY COMMITMENTS. WELL, I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A SEC, BUT... LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE ELECTION. SURE, COST OF LIVING AND CRIME SORT OF DOMINATED THE ISSUES, AND SURVEYS SHOW THAT THEY WERE NUMBER ONE AND TWO, AND CLIMATE WAS LIKE NUMBER SEVEN. IS THAT, LIKE, A FAILURE ON BEHALF OF LOBBY GROUPS TO GET CLIMATE INTO PEOPLE'S... THE FOREFRONT OF PEOPLE'S CONCERNS? I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I MEAN, CLIMATE CHANGE... I THINK NEW ZEALANDERS REALISED THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HERE THIS YEAR, AND UNFORTUNATELY IT HAD TO TAKE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT NATURAL DISASTER FOR US TO REALISE THAT. SO` AND YET IT STILL DIDN'T REALLY FEATURE IN THE ELECTION, DESPITE THAT. YEAH. WELL, I GUESS WHEN PEOPLE ARE HAVING TROUBLE PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE AND PAYING THEIR BILLS, YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEY MIGHT BE FOCUSED ON MORE NEAR-TERM PRESSURES. BUT IT'S ALSO THE ROLE OF OUR POLITICAL LEADERS TO BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO MAKE THOSE CALLS THAT ARE GOING TO FOSTER LONG-TERM INTERGENERATIONAL EQUITY. THE COST THAT WE ARE PUTTING ON THE SHOULDERS OF OUR CHILDREN AND OUR GRANDCHILDREN AND EVEN OUR FUTURE SELVES BY FAILING TO ADDRESS CLIMATE CHANGE AND BIODIVERSITY LOSS IS JUST INCREDIBLE. IT'S ACTUALLY MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE. HOW CAN YOU GET THE MESSAGE THROUGH THAT THE COST OF CLIMATE CHANGE IS A COST-OF-LIVING EXPENSE? BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE RESONATING. I THINK IN THE COMING YEARS WE WILL SEE THAT IT DOES. BECAUSE THIS COUNTRY CAN'T SUSTAIN NATURAL DISASTER AFTER NATURAL DISASTER AND NOT HAVE THAT COST FLOW THROUGH TO PEOPLE'S EVERYDAY LIVES. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE SPECIFIC POLICIES OF A POTENTIAL GOVERNMENT. WELL, WE DON'T HAVE ONE YET, BUT WE KNOW WHAT THEIR POLICIES ARE. MONEY RAISED FROM THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME UNDER NATIONAL WILL IN PART BE RETURNED FOR TAX RELIEF. SO THAT'S A MARKET-DRIVEN APPROACH TO CLIMATE CHANGE. WILL THAT WORK? I WOULDN'T DESCRIBE IT AS A MARKET-DRIVEN APPROACH, TO BE HONEST. CALLING THAT POLICY APPROACH A CLIMATE DIVIDEND IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT AND ACTUALLY INCREDIBLY MISLEADING. A CLIMATE DIVIDEND IS WHEN YOU HAVE EMISS` REVENUES FROM THE ETS DIRECTLY TRANSFERRED TO ORDINARY CITIZENS, AND IT SHOULD BE PEGGED TO THE CARBON PRICE. WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED HERE IS DEFUNDING NEW ZEALAND'S EMISSIONS REDUCTION WORK PROGRAMME TO FILL GOVERNMENT COFFERS TO UNDERWRITE TAX CUTS. IT'S NOT THE SAME THING. THE ARGUMENT IS THAT THE TARGETED APPROACH PREVIOUSLY, WITH ETS FUNDING GOING INTO MITIGATION OF CLIMATE CHANGE, HASN'T ACTUALLY REDUCED EMISSIONS THAT MUCH. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT? I DO NOT. BECAUSE SINCE 1990, NEW ZEALAND'S EMISSIONS OVERALL HAVE BEEN UP 19%, BUT IN THE LAST THREE YEARS, EVEN PUTTING ASIDE THE EFFECT OF THE PANDEMIC, THEY'VE COME DOWN. AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THE STRUCTURE CREATED BY THE ZERO-CARBON ACT AND OUR EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN IS ACTUALLY WORKING. AND WE KNOW INTERNATIONALLY THAT DECARBONISATION IS SLOW TO GET GOING, BUT ONCE IT GETS GOING, IT INCREASES ITS SPEED EXPONENTIALLY. OK. SO NEW ZEALAND IS DOING ITS BIT ` AND THIS IS WHERE THE ACT PARTY ARGUES THAT WE CAN ONLY DO OUR BIT; WE CAN'T GO BEYOND THAT, AND WHY SHOULD WE LEAD THE PACK? WELL, I THINK THEY'RE ARGUING THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE DOING OUR BIT, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE THEY'RE PROPOSING TO REPEAL THE ZERO-CARBON ACT AND FIX OUR CARBON PRICE TO OUR FIVE MAJOR TRADING PARTNERS. THAT'S NOT DOING OUR BIT. THAT'S POTENTIALLY RELITIGATING OUR PARIS COMMITMENTS. ARE YOU SAYING NOT LIVING UP TO OUR PARIS COMMITMENTS? ARE YOU SAYING THAT COULD HAPPEN? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING. AND THAT WOULD BE HUGELY PROBLEMATIC. OK. BUT EMISSIONS ARE COMING DOWN. SO THE SITUATION AT THE MOMENT ` NEW ZEALAND IS DOING ITS BIT, RIGHT? YES. BUT WILL WE BE ABLE TO CONTINUE DOING OUR BIT IF WE COMPLETELY DEFUND OUR EMISSIONS REDUCTION WORK PROGRAMME? I'D ARGUE PROBABLY NOT. ACT IS SAYING THAT IT WANTS TO GET RID OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION AND ALL THE ANCILLARY BITS AND PIECES AROUND THAT, INCLUDING THE ZERO-CARBON ACT. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT WILL BE CATASTROPHIC FOR OUR CLIMATE GOALS? I DO. THE ETS IS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE AT THE MOMENT. THE ETS ` THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME ` WAS DESIGNED TO MEET THE COMMITMENTS UNDER THE KYOTO PROTOCOL, NOT PARIS. IF YOU WERE TO REDESIGN THE EMISSIONS TRADING SCHEME TODAY, IT WOULD LOOK A LOT DIFFERENT ` YOU WOULDN'T BE INCENTIVISING WIDESPREAD EXOTIC PINE PLANTATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE. YOU MIGHT BE LOOKING AT OTHER NOVEL FORMS OF REMOVALS. OK. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT DIDN'T HAVE A CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER IN CABINET; THEY DIDN'T HAVE A CONSERVATION MINISTER IN CABINET. WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IN THE NEW GOVERNMENT? WELL, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE YOUR CLIMATE MINISTER WITHIN CABINET. IT'S AN ECONOMIC PORTFOLIO AS MUCH AS IT IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL ONE. BUT I'D ALSO ARGUE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE POLICIES RELEVANT TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND NEW ZEALAND'S CLIMATE ACTION ARE NOT JUST CLIMATE PORTFOLIO POLICIES. OUR TRANSPORT POLICIES ARE CLIMATE POLICIES. OUR HOUSING POLICIES ARE CLIMATE POLICIES. OUR ENVIRONMENTAL POLICIES ARE CLIMATE POLICIES. THERE NEEDS TO BE GOOD INTEGRATION ACROSS GOVERNMENT. THE ERP, THE EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN, WAS A GREAT STEP IN THE DIRECTION OF ACHIEVING THAT. FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AGENCIES INVOLVED IN IT, IT WAS A FAIRLY EXCRUCIATING PROCESS, BUT WHAT I KNOW INTERNATIONALLY ` BECAUSE WWF IS ACTIVE IN OVER 100 COUNTRIES ` IS THAT OUR EXPERIENCE ACTUALLY PUTS US AHEAD OF THE PACK. WE ARE` YOU KNOW, WE'RE RELATIVELY WELL COORDINATED ACROSS GOVERNMENT NOW, AND NOW IS THE TIME TO KEEP THE FOOT ON THE ACCELERATOR. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NEW ZEALAND'S POLITICAL LEADERSHIP WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE? I'M CONCERNED, AND THE REASON I'M MOST CONCERNED ABOUT THIS IS... YOU KNOW, THE NATIONAL PARTY WENT OUT AND SAID THEY ARE MEETING NEW ZEALAND'S INTERNATIONAL COMMITMENTS AS A BOTTOM LINE, AND I THINK THAT'S EXCELLENT, BUT THEY'VE NOT BACKED IT UP WITH ANY SUBSTANTIVE POLICY COMMITMENTS. LIKE, QUITE THE OPPOSITE. WE'VE BEEN OBSESSED WITH FISCAL HOLES IN THIS ELECTION. RIGHT? WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOLES IN THE TAX PLAN, ET CETERA. BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO DEFUND THE CLIMATE EMERGENCY RESPONSE FUND BY $2.3bn, YOU'RE GOING TO CUT THE CLEAN CAR REBATE ` WHICH IS ARGUABLY THE MOST EFFECTIVE TRANSPORT POLICY WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS ` AND YOU'RE GOING TO EXPLORE OFFSHORE OIL AND GAS, I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW WE'RE GOING TO MEET THOSE COMMITMENTS. IT'S NOT A FISCAL HOLE; IT'S A FISCAL ABYSS. AND ON THAT POINT, WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. KAYLA KINGDON-BEBB, CEO OF WWF NEW ZEALAND. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. MY PLEASURE. E WHAI AKE NEI ` COMING UP ` IT'S TIME FOR OUR POLITICAL PANEL. PLUS, THE FARMER TURNED POLITICIAN ` IT IS THE RETURN OF 'BACKSTORY'. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL, COMMISSIONING CHAIR OF WHANAU ORA AND RECENT TE PATI MAORI CANDIDATE MEREPEKA RAUKAWA-TAIT AND BEN THOMAS, A PR CONSULTANT AND FORMER PRESS SECRETARY FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY. TENA KORUA. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. MORENA. LOOK... SO, COALITION TALKS ` LET'S DO THE POLITICS. THEY'LL MOVE TO AUCKLAND THIS WEEK. BEN, IS THAT A CASE OF AVOIDANCE OR JUST, LIKE, PRACTICALITY? IT'S A CASE OF ALL THREE LEADERS LIVE UP HERE. YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS REAL SENSE OF ARTIFICIALITY IF THEY'RE FLYING IN TO BE GREETED BY REPORTERS AT THE AIRPORT TO SAY NOTHING, TO THEN GO INTO SOME LITTLE DINKY ROOM IN PARLIAMENT AND AGAIN SAY NOTHING, AND WE HAVE NIGHTLY NEWS REPORTS ABOUT WHICH BISCUITS WERE CARRIED INTO THE ROOM... WE ARE NOT BEING SUBJECTED TO THAT. THAT'S TRUE. AND, YEAH, LOOK, OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND. WE'RE NOT GOING TO LEARN ANYTHING. THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE A BLACK BOX. THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN FOR MMP. WE JUST` YOU KNOW, THE TRAGICS AMONG US CAN SIT AND WAIT, AND EVERYONE ELSE CAN GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES. WELL, I WAS JUST WONDERING ABOUT THAT ` MEREPEKA, THE PUBLIC PROBABLY DOESN'T CARE WHERE THEY'RE HELD, DO THEY? WELL, I THINK THEY DO CARE. DO THEY? AND I THINK THIS WAITING PERIOD IS PROBABLY ANNOYING FOLKS, YOU KNOW? BUT THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT ` THE WHITEBOARDS MUST BE GETTING REALLY WORKED OVER, (LAUGHS) BECAUSE THERE'S SIGNIFICANT MAHI GOING ON IN THE BACKGROUND ` THE SCENARIOS, WHAT IT MIGHT LOOK LIKE; THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT BEING HELD IN PUBLIC AT THIS POINT IN TIME ` OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE OUTCOME; THAT'S COMING THIS WEEK. WHICH IS SUCH A LONG TIME, TOO, TO BE WAITING FOR ANY SORT OF A RESULT. BUT THAT'S JUST WAITING FOR THE SPECIALS. THEN AFTER THAT, WE'VE STILL GOT NEGOTIATIONS...? THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THAT COULD BE, WHAT, THE END OF THE MONTH? I DON'T KNOW. YOU'LL HAVE TO ASK CHRISTOPHER LUXON, IF HE FRONTS UP. DAVID SEYMOUR WANTS TO MAKE THE COALITION AGREEMENT MADE PUBLIC ONCE IT'S ALL SIGNED. HAVE WE SEEN THAT BEFORE, BEN? WELL, YEAH ` COALITION AGREEMENTS ARE ALWAYS MADE PUBLIC. BUT THE DETAILS? SO ARE CONFIDENCE AND SUPPORT AGREEMENTS. WELL, NORMALLY THAT'S ROUGHLY THE DETAIL. THERE WAS A VERY` THERE WAS A MORE COMPREHENSIVE ONE WHEN WINSTON PETERS... NEW ZEALAND FIRST, RATHER, AND NATIONAL WENT INTO COALITION FOR THE FIRST MMP GOVERNMENT; IT'S BEEN SORT OF MORE BAREBONES SINCE THEN WITH THESE SUPPORT AGREEMENTS. AND THE COALITION AGREEMENT. YOU KNOW, FOR THE LAST GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, WINSTON PETERS SAID THAT THERE WAS SORT OF A BIGGER DOCUMENT SOMEWHERE LOCKED IN A SAFE OR SOMETHING. WE NEVER SAW THAT. WE NEVER SAW IT. AND, LOOK, YOU KNOW, THE PARTIES WILL SORT OF TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT MIGHT BE COMING UP, BUT WITHOUT SORT OF REALLY` BUT WE DO NEED FULL DISCLOSURE, DON'T WE? AS A PUBLIC, AS A VOTING PUBLIC, WE NEED FULL DISCLOSURE OF WHAT'S GOING ON. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE PUBLIC ACTUALLY NOW EXPECT ` THAT THEY WANT FULL DISCLOSURE. THEY WANT THEY WANT TO KNOW THINGS IN A TIMELY FASHION. AND WHY SHOULDN'T THEY KNOW SOME OF THE DETAIL? WHY SHOULDN'T THEY KNOW WHERE ONE PARTY HAD TO CONCEDE ON CERTAIN POLICIES? I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THE FINAL DOCUMENT WILL INDICATE THAT, BUT... AND IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT THEY'VE NEGOTIATED ` HOPEFULLY ` IN GOOD FAITH AND THAT THE OUTCOME WILL BE SOMETHING THAT WE CAN ALL LIVE WITH. SO, CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, 'I'M DOING THIS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND NOT GOING TO SAY VERY MUCH,' EXCEPT THAT THEY'RE PROGRESSING AND BUILDING GOOD FAITH AND ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. BUT HIS TWO POTENTIAL COALITION PARTNERS ARE OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS. DAVID SEYMOUR HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT NATIONAL'S TAX POLICY AND THE RESERVE BANK, AND WINSTON PETERS HAS BEEN TWEETING ABOUT THE INQUEST INTO THE MARCH 15TH TERROR ATTACKS. I MEAN, HE... WHAT, BEN, WAS GOING ON THERE? CAN YOU READ INTO WHY WINSTON PETERS WOULD BE MAKING THOSE KINDS OF TWEETS ABOUT JACINDA ARDERN IN THIS SORT OF PERIOD? IT'S VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND. LOOK, MANY PEOPLE SMARTER THAN ME AND MORE EXPERIENCED THAN ME HAVE TRIED TO GET INSIDE WINSTON PETERS' HEAD. BUT, LOOK, EVERY TIME HE HAS GONE INTO GOVERNMENT SO FAR ` 1996, 2005, 2017 ` AT THE FOLLOWING ELECTION, HIS PARTY HAS FALLEN BELOW THE 5% THRESHOLD, AND IN TWO CASES, THAT'S MEANT HE'S OUT OF PARLIAMENT. AND IF THAT HAPPENS AGAIN, HE'S OUT OF PARLIAMENT AGAIN. HE KEEPS REINVENTING THE KINDS OF ARRANGEMENTS THAT HE HAS IN GOVERNMENT, PRESUMABLY AS A WAY OF TRYING TO IMPROVE ON THE LAST TIME. HERE, YOU KNOW, THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO IS THAT HE'S DECIDED HE GOT BACK ON THE WAVE OF THE SUPPORT OF FRINGE, MARGINAL GROUPS, CONSPIRACY THEORISTS, AND HE'S DECIDED HE NEEDS TO PLAY TO THAT GALLERY THROUGHOUT THE TERM; BEING A HANDBRAKE IS NOT ENOUGH ` IT WASN'T ENOUGH IN 2017 ` AND HE'S ACTUALLY GOT TO BE THERE INDULGING THOSE KINDS OF THEORIES. SO IT'S POSSIBLY POLITICAL STRATEGY, LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT ELECTION? I MEAN, I HOPE NOT, BUT THAT'S THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO. BUT WHAT IF HE'S RIGHT? WHAT IF THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR WINSTON, AS THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, TO HAVE BEEN INFORMED 24 HOURS EARLIER RATHER THAN 24 HOURS LATER? WOULDN'T THAT HAVE BEEN...? I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT I LOOKED` WHEN I LOOKED AT IT, I THOUGHT, 'GOOD GOD,' YOU KNOW, 'WHAT IF HE IS RIGHT?' I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, 24 HOURS EARLIER THAN HE WAS INFORMED ` OR HE SAYS HE FOUND OUT ` WAS STILL AFTER THE ATTACK, YOU KNOW. AND HIS INITIAL TWEET WAS A VERY SINISTER-SOUNDING IMPLICATION THAT SOMEHOW THE GOVERNMENT WAS TO BLAME FOR NOT HAVING ACTED FAST ENOUGH. AND IT WAS COMPLETELY IRRESPONSIBLE. IT WAS AN OUTRAGEOUS TWEET. YEAH, THAT IS ONE INTERPRETATION. THAT'S RIGHT. WE PROBABLY WON'T GO ANY FURTHER THAT WAY. BUT, I MEAN` AND OF COURSE, LABOUR DID` OR JACINDA ARDERN DID THE NEXT DAY SAY THAT SHE HAD BEEN INFORMED, THE OFFICE HAD BEEN INFORMED, AROUND ABOUT THE SAME TIME THE ATTACK WAS HAPPENING. SO... WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING, THOUGH, WAS THE REVELATION THIS WEEK THAT HE MADE THAT TWEET JUST BEFORE HE HAD DINNER WITH CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND HIS WIFE, AMANDA. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN READ ANYTHING INTO THAT TIMING OR NOT. IT JUST SEEMS CURIOUS, REALLY. WELL, IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT TIMING, ISN'T IT? EVERYTHING'S ABOUT TIMING. IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED THAT HE DID IT AS A BIT OF A FLEX, TO KIND OF SHOW, 'LOOK, I'M NOT IN THE BOX SEAT, 'I'M THE SMALLEST PARTY THAT'S COMING INTO THESE TALKS, 'BUT, LOOK, I'M STILL WINSTON PETERS. 'I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT, I CAN SAY IT WITH IMPUNITY, 'AND THE OTHER PARTY LEADERS KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.' SMALLEST PARTY, BUT THE BIGGEST FOCUS. AND IT IS A BAD SIGNAL IF THAT'S HOW HE INTENDS TO BEHAVE. BECAUSE YOU WOULD THINK THAT SOMEBODY LIKE ACTING LIKE THAT IN GOVERNMENT DISQUALIFIES THEM FROM ANY OF THE HIGH OFFICES THAT HE WANTS, LIKE FOREIGN MINISTER. SO THIS WOULD MAKE` WELL, WE'VE HAD RADIO SILENCE ON THIS FROM CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND DAVID SEYMOUR. THEY MUST BE LOOKING AT THE FORTHCOMING SPECIALS AND JUST CROSSING THEIR FINGERS, THEN, WOULDN'T YOU THINK, MEREPEKA? I THINK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT, BUT WHO KNOWS WHERE IT'S GOING TO GO? AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. IT'S TAKING SO LONG. AND OF COURSE, THE LONGER IT GOES ON, PEOPLE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THE DESIRABILITY OF HAVING WINSTON THERE AS A COALITION` PART OF THE COALITION GOVERNMENT. AND THE FACT IS THERE'S... YOU KNOW, HE IS` SHOULD HE BE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER? SHOULD DAVID SEYMOUR BE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, OR SHOULD NATIONAL KEEP IT IN HOUSE WITH NICOLA WILLIS? WELL, HE'S THE ONLY ONE THAT'S GOT THE EXPERIENCE, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED. I ALWAYS SAY ` AND SO MANY PEOPLE DO SAY ` 'DON'T UNDERESTIMATE WINSTON PETERS.' OK. WELL, THAT'S RIGHT ` IN THE PAST, HE HAS BEEN VERY STATESMANLIKE WHEN HE IS ACTUALLY IN GOVERNMENT. AND THE ISSUE IS IF HE'S SIGNALLING A DEPARTURE FROM THAT. YOU KNOW, HE WAS EXCELLENT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE CHRISTCHURCH SHOOTING. HE WAS STATESMANLIKE. HE WAS RESPONSIBLE. HE BACKED UP THE GOVERNMENT. YOU KNOW, HE REALLY PERFORMED ADMIRABLY, AND IT'S A REAL SHAME THAT HE'S KIND OF MUDDYING THAT LEGACY NOW. LET'S MOVE ON TO MAORI WARDS. THIS WEEK, WE HAD A DECISION BY THE AUCKLAND COUNCIL NOT TO HAVE A MAORI WARD ESTABLISHED, BUT THAT'S DESPITE HALF THE COUNCILS IN THE COUNTRY ALREADY HAVING THEM. WHAT DO YOU READ INTO THAT MATTER? WELL, THEY'RE SOMEWHAT OUT OF STEP, AREN'T THEY, THEN, WITH THE WISHES OF LOCAL COMMUNITIES. AND, YEAH, I WAS DISAPPOINTED, OF COURSE, BECAUSE... YOU CANNOT SAY THAT YOU'RE ELECTED BY THE CITIZENS OF A CITY OF THE SIZE OF ROTO` SORRY, THE SIZE OF AUCKLAND THAT HAS THE BIGGEST POPULATION, MAORI POPULATION, OF COURSE, AND SAY YOU'RE ELECTED TO REPRESENT THEM WHEN YOU ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE, WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THOSE COMMUNITIES. AND THOSE COMMUNITIES NOW ARE NOT GOING TO SIT QUIETLY AND THINK, 'OH, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO CROSS OUR FINGERS AND HOPE YOU'LL REPRESENT US WELL AND KNOW OUR ISSUES.' SO I WAS DISAPPOINTED. AND ALSO, I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE MAYOR DECIDED TO ABSTAIN. THAT SENDS A SIGNAL. OK. BUT UNDER A POTENTIAL NATIONAL/ACT GOVERNMENT, MAORI WARDS COULD POSSIBLY BE SCRAPPED. I MEAN, HASN'T NATIONAL` OR ACT DEFINITELY INDICATED THAT IT DOESN'T WANT THEM? AND SO` YEAH, NATIONAL'S SAID THEY'LL MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT. THEY'LL REVERT TO THE STATUS QUO FROM A FEW YEARS AGO, WHICH IS THAT IT CAN BE PUT TO A SORT OF REFERENDUM AND CAN BE OVERTURNED THAT WAY. BUT THIS COULD BE A` LIKE A FESTERING ISSUE COMING IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS. IT'LL COST THE RATEPAYERS CONSIDERABLY. IT WILL COST THE RATEPAYERS ABSOLUTELY CONSIDERABLY, BECAUSE DECISIONS NOW WILL BE CHALLENGED. THEY'LL EVEN` PARTICULARLY, THEY'LL BE CHALLENGED THROUGH THE ENVIRONMENTAL COURT. THERE'S MONEY AVAILABLE NOW FOR THAT TO HAPPEN THROUGH THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS. SO YOU'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE ASPIRATIONS OF MAORI WILL NOT BE CURTAILED BY POLITICIANS WHO DO NOT KNOW THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY REPRESENT. BUT IN TERMS OF THINGS LIKE RMA OBJECTIONS AND DEALING WITH MANA WHENUA ` WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND THERE ARE LEGAL OBLIGATIONS ON COUNCILS FOR THAT... AND, LOOK, I SHOULD SAY I WORK WITH A NUMBER OF IWI THAT HAVE DIFFERING VIEWS ON THIS SORT OF THING, ON MAORI SEATS. BUT ONE... YOU KNOW, ONE FACET OF MAORI SEATS IS THAT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY GET MANA WHENUA REPRESENTATION. SO FOR INSTANCE, IN AUCKLAND ` YOU KNOW, THE LARGEST GROUP OF MAORI IWI-WISE IN AUCKLAND IS NGAPUHI. IT'S NOT ACTUALLY SORT OF TAMAKI MAKAURAU IWI. YEAH. SO URBAN MAORI IN AUCKLAND ARE DISPARATE; THEY'RE NOT JUST REPRESENTED FROM TAMAKI MAKAURAU IN TERMS OF IWI. YEAH. SO THERE MIGHT BE ISSUES ABOUT SORT OF REPRESENTATION OF A KIND, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY` IT DOESN'T DISCHARGE THOSE TREATY OBLIGATIONS. OK. ALL RIGHT. AND ONE REALLY QUICK QUESTION BEFORE I GO. NATIONAL SAYS THAT IF ITS GANG PATCHES LEGISLATION DOESN'T WORK, IT MIGHT LEGISLATE TO HAVE FACIAL TATTOOS COVERED OVER WITH, UM... I DON'T KNOW, CONCEALER. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? DO YOU THINK THE GANGS WILL COMPLY WITH THAT? WELL` NO, USUALLY THAT'S ASSOCIATED WITH` ANY FACIAL TATTOO IS ASSOCIATED WITH IDENTITY. SO` YOU KNOW. AND GOOD LUCK SAYING, 'WELL, LOOK,' YOU KNOW, 'COME AND SIT DOWN HERE; I WANT TO PAT SOME FOUNDATION ON YOU.' GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE. WE'LL SEE HOW THAT PANS OUT. MEREPEKA RAUKAWA-TAIT AND BEN THOMAS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME ON THE PANEL TODAY. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK ` TO BACKSTORY. ANDREW HOGGARD IS ALREADY A FAMILIAR FACE IN THE RURAL COMMUNITY, BUT NOW HE'S SETTLING INTO PARLIAMENT AS AN ACT MP. BUT HE DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY JUMP AT THE CHANCE, APPARENTLY, INSTEAD DECLINING DAVID SEYMOUR WITH A VERY FRANK TWO-WORD ANSWER. HERE IS HIS BACKSTORY. BORN DOWN IN UPPER HUTT. MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER PURCHASED A FARM JUST NORTH OF UPPER HUTT AT KAITOKE. AND SO MY GRANDFATHER FARMED IT, DAD FARMED IT, AND THAT'S WHERE I WAS BORN. I LOVED IT, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE... IT WAS A VERY QUIET LITTLE ROAD, AND SO... WE JUST ROAMED FREE. WE'D WAKE UP, HAVE BREAKFAST AND... DISAPPEAR. YOU KNOW? YOU'RE OUTDOORS, YOU'RE DOING THINGS, YOU'RE RUNNING AROUND MAKING FORTS, GETTING UP TO SOME MISCHIEF... WITH MY BROTHER AND SISTER, I LIKED TO TAKE CHARGE AND... WELL, COS I WAS THE OLDEST, SO I GAVE THEM ORDERS ON WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING AND TRY TO ORGANISE EVERYTHING. UM, WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT THESE DAYS. BUT... AT SCHOOL, PROBABLY SHY. A FEW TEACHERS WONDERED WHETHER OR NOT I DIDN'T HAVE A SPEAKING DIFFICULTY OR THINGS LIKE THAT, COS I DIDN'T ACTUALLY TALK THAT MUCH, APPARENTLY. PRIMARILY, YEAH, FAIRLY SHY, QUIET ` JUST THAT GREY KID THAT DISAPPEARED INTO THE BACKGROUND AND, UM, NO ONE EXPECTED A HELL OF A LOT FROM. AND PEOPLE LOOK AT ME AND GO... YOU KNOW, SORT OF A FOOTROT FLATS CHARACTER OF BEING NOT THAT BRIGHT, AND DUMB, AND, UM, BIG BUFFOON TYPE. AND YET I'M REASONABLY INTELLIGENT ON A HELL OF A LOT OF THINGS, AS I WOULD ASSUME MOST PEOPLE HAVE NOW WORKED OUT. SO, YEAH, PEOPLE PROBABLY DO UNDERESTIMATE ME AT FIRST, AND THEN... YEAH, THEN I SURPRISE THEM. THIRD FORM, I WENT FROM ABOUT 5'2" TO 6ft WITHIN THE SPAN OF` YEAH, AND A FEW YEARS LATER, THERE I AM IN THE FIRST XV. SO... YES, GREAT TIMES AND GOOD ENJOYMENT. AS A 17-YEAR-OLD, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE THAT PLAYS FIRST XV RUGBY ` WHAT'S MY GOAL? BE AN ALL BLACK. THAT GOAL VANISHED PROBABLY ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH UNIVERSITY, WHERE I REALISED, 'NO, PROBABLY (CHUCKLES) I'M NOT GONNA MAKE THAT LEVEL.' DID UNIVERSITY WHILE I WAS STILL DOWN THERE. THEN I WENT OVERSEAS ` DID A YEAR IN CANADA WORKING ON A DAIRY, BEEF AND GRAIN FARM THERE. REALISED, 'YEAH, ACTUALLY, THIS IS ENJOYABLE. 'THIS IS WHAT I LIKE DOING.' UM... YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS STRUGGLE WITH SITTING AT A DESK, TYPING OUT LONG REPORTS AND... ALL THE REST OF IT, ALTHOUGH I'LL HAVE TO OVERCOME THAT NOW. UM... YEAH, THAT WAS SORT OF WHERE I WANTED TO HEAD. MY DAD WAS ALWAYS PART OF FEDERATED FARMERS, AND HE HAD BEEN INVOLVED AT A PROVINCIAL LEVEL. A YEAR AFTER I MOVED UP HERE, I GOT INVOLVED IN YOUNG FARMERS. SOMEONE ELSE STEPPED DOWN FROM THEIR THREE-YEAR TERM, OR THE PERSON` IT WAS TIME FOR ME TO MOVE UP, AND SO JUST PROGRESSED ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP JOB OVER 18 YEARS. YEARS AGO, IT WAS GREAT THINKING TIME. YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ALONE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND (CHUCKLES) YOU SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD IN YOUR HEAD. NOWADAYS, THE SHED'S GOT A LOT MORE TECHNOLOGY HAPPENING. IT'S, YEAH, A LOT MORE BUSIER. AND AS LONG AS EVERYTHING'S RUNNING FINE, IT CAN... SOMETIMES IT CAN BE QUITE RELAXING JUST STANDING THERE AND CUPPING AWAY. UM... IF THINGS ARE GOING WRONG THEN, OH, IT CAN BE FRUSTRATING AS HELL. IT'S PROBABLY THE HARDEST THING, REALLY, IS MANAGING THE WEATHER. WE'RE IN THAT SITUATION WHERE, YOU KNOW, GRASS ISN'T GROWING, AND... YOU KIND OF FEEL LIKE, UM... THE WORLD SORT OF SHRINKS AROUND YOU, AND YOU JUST SORT OF FEEL LIKE YOU'RE TAKING THE WEIGHT OF EVERYTHING ON YOUR SHOULDERS. AND I THINK THAT'S WHY ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ` OFTEN WHEN YOU HAVE THESE PERIODS WHERE IT'S REALLY, REALLY TOUGH, THE LIKES OF EITHER FEDERATED FARMERS OR RURAL SUPPORT OR EVERYONE GET TOGETHER FOR A BEER AT THE PUB SORT OF EVENTS, AND SUDDENLY YOU REALISE EVERYONE ELSE IS IN THE SAME BOAT, DEALING WITH THE SAME STUFF, AND ACTUALLY, YOU'RE DOING ALL YOU CAN ` THOSE ARE THE SORT OF THINGS THAT HELP GET THROUGH, THAT SORT OF APPROACH. IF YOU JUST TAKE IT ALL ON YOURSELF, THEN THAT'S, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE SUCH A MEN` YOU KNOW, BIG SORT OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE IN THE RURAL AREA. SO, I'VE BEEN MARRIED 15 YEARS NOW. IN FACT, OUR WEDDING ANNIVERSARY WAS LAST WEEK, WHEN I WAS AT PARLIAMENT, SO I HAD TO` BEFORE I CAME HOME, HAD TO FIND A VERY EXPENSIVE PRESENT. WHEN I MET HER, SHE WAS IN THE ARMY. YEAH, IT SORT OF CLICKED, AND THAT WAS US, AND, UM... YEAH. THEN TWO DAUGHTERS, MICHAELA AND PAYTON. YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAD GONE BACK... 20 YEARS AGO AND SAID DO I WANT TO BE AN MP, I PROBABLY WOULD'VE SAID NO. I THINK, ACTUALLY, WHEN DAVID SEYMOUR GAVE ME` PUT THE IDEA INTO MY HEAD A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, MY ANSWER CONSISTED OF TWO WORDS, AND YOU CAN PROBABLY GUESS WHAT THOSE TWO WORDS WERE. (CHUCKLES) UM... BUT IT'S JUST` YOU KNOW, I JUST LIKE CHALLENGES. YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO SORT OF GURU BOOK OR WHATEVER THAT I WOULD POINT TO AND SAY, 'OH, THIS IS WHAT I... 'THESE ARE MY BELIEFS,' OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. AND IN FACT, I DON'T REALLY (CHUCKLES) READ ANY OF THOSE BOOKS ANYWAY. UM... YEAH. IT'S MAINLY STAR WARS BOOKS I READ, SO IF THERE WAS ANY GURU, IT'D BE YODA. AND I GUESS THAT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY I'M HERE NOW, DOING THE POLITICS THING ` COS, YOU KNOW, WASN'T ABLE TO ACHIEVE THE CHANGE I WOULD'VE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN THROUGH FEDS, AND SO THIS IS THE PATHWAY TO TRY AND GET THAT CHANGE. ANDREW HOGGARD THERE. WHAT YOU THINK THOSE TWO WORDS WERE? OH, I COULDN'T POSSIBLY THINK. 'NO, THANKS'? (BOTH LAUGH) THAT IS ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. THE SPECIAL VOTES WILL FINALLY BE COUNTED THIS WEEK, SO IT'S ALL ON. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND WITH ALL THE DETAILS. NGA MIHI NUI. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023