CAPTIONS BY JAMES BROWN AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023. TENA KOUTOU NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, THE VOTES ARE IN, THE SEATS ARE SORTED ` WHAT DEAL WILL DEFINE THE SHAPE OF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT? NOW WE CAN GET CRACKING WITH IT AND CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE THOSE CONVERSATIONS WHICH WILL BE REALLY IMPORTANT. WE HAVE TO TREAT IT WITH URGENCY AND DEAL WITH THE NEGOTIATIONS AS FAST AS WE POSSIBILITY CAN, WHILST NOT BEING FOOLISH ABOUT IT. WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE HUGE SHIFT IN THE MAORI SEATS. AND THEN A FASCINATING INTERVIEW YOU WON'T HEAR ANYWHERE ELSE. A MAORI LEADER WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY LINK TO THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE. WITHIN THIS REALM, JUDGEMENTS ARE BEING MADE AROUND WHAT IT IS TO BE HUMAN, WHAT IT IS TO BE NORMAL, WHAT IT IS ORGANISE YOURSELF IN A POLITICAL WAY. BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE FINAL RESULTS FROM THE GENERAL ELECTION. SUBJECT TO RECOUNTS IN SEVERAL TIGHT ELECTORATES, AND PROVIDED IT DOESN'T WORK WITH THE GREENS OR LABOUR, NATIONAL WILL NEED THE SUPPORT OF TWO SUPPORT PARTIES TO COMMAND A MAJORITY AND FORM A GOVERNMENT. WHAT IS IT GOING TO MEAN FOR NEGOTIATIONS WITH ACT AND NZ FIRST? LATE YESTERDAY I SPOKE TO NATIONAL PARTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER CHRIS BISHOP, AND BEGAN BY ASKING FOR HIS REACTION TO THE RESULTS. LOOK, WE'RE OVERALL PRETTY HAPPY. OBVIOUSLY WE WON THE ELECTION, AND WE JUST NEED TO FORM GOVERNMENT WITH ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST NOW. BUT IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHERE WE WERE IN 2020, ONE OF THE WORST RESULTS FOR NATIONAL IN HISTORY, 2023 FEELS PRETTY GOOD. AND SO WE'VE JUST GOT TO GET THAT GOVERNMENT TOGETHER OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND GO FORWARD FROM THERE. BUT, LOOK, THE COUNTRY SENT A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THEY WANTED CHANGE, AND THEY HAVE DELIVERED THAT CHANGE, AND WE'VE JUST GOT TO FORM THAT GOVERNMENT NOW. SO, LOOKING AT YOUR FINAL PARTY VOTE TALLY, YOU'RE SITTING AT JUST OVER 38% ` AS YOU SAY, THE LARGEST PARTY, BUT THE SECOND LOWEST RESULT FOR NATIONAL IN THE LAST 20 YEARS. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? WELL, OBVIOUSLY YOU'VE GOT A STRONG ACT PARTY ON OUR RIGHT. THEY GOT AROUND 9% OF THE VOTE. SO IF YOU GO 38% AND 9%, THAT'S 47%. IT'S GOOD NUMBERS. AND YOU THROW NEW ZEALAND FIRST INTO THE MIX THERE AS WELL, ON THE CENTRE RIGHT, YOU KNOW WITH AROUND 6%, THAT'S WELL OVER 50% FOR THE CENTRE, CENTRE-RIGHT BLOC OF PARTIES. SO VERY CLEAR, DECISIVE MANDATE FOR CHANGE DELIVERED BY THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE. AND MMP ELECTIONS ARE ALWAYS CLOSE, BY DEFINITION. THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO BE CLOSE. THE SYSTEM AS DESIGNED LIKE THAT. WE WOULD LIKE TO BE HIGHER THAN 38%, OF COURSE. THE LABOUR PARTY WOULD LIKE TO BE HIGHER THAN 27%. THE GREENS WOULD LIKE TO BE HIGHER THAN WHAT THEY GOT. EVERYONE WANTS MORE VOTES. YOU ALWAYS WANT THAT. THAT'S WHY WE'RE IN POLITICS AND WHY WE'RE ULTIMATELY GOING FOR PARLIAMENT. BUT 38%, COMPARED TO WHERE WE WERE IN 2020, YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY GOOD. YEAH. I'M INTERESTED IN THIS, THOUGH, BECAUSE THAT NUMBER IS QUITE DIFFERENT TO THE NUMBERS THAT JOHN KEY ENJOYED DURING HIS TIME IN GOVERNMENT. WHY DO YOU THINK SO MANY VOTERS WHO MIGHT HAVE IN THE PAST SUPPORTED NATIONAL CHOSE TO SUPPORT ACT OR INDEED NEW ZEALAND FIRST INSTEAD? WELL, LOOK, I THINK ULTIMATELY THE POLITICAL COMMENTATORS WILL HAVE THEIR SAY ON THAT, AND NO DOUBT THERE'LL BE POLITICAL SCIENTISTS... WHAT'S YOUR SAY? ...THE MORE INFORMED MEMBERS OF THE JOURNALISTIC COMMUNITY. WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, DAVID SEYMOUR IS A STRONG AND DECISIVE VOICE FOR THE ACT PARTY. HE'S REBUILT THE PARTY AFTER SOME PRETTY TROUBLING TIMES IN THE EARLY 2010S, AND PARTICULARLY DURING THE COVID PERIOD HE WAS A VERY CLEAR AND STRIKING VOICE, AND HE'S OBVIOUSLY MANAGED TO BUILD ON THAT MOMENTUM. SO IF YOU GO BACK TO THE SORT OF '08, 2011 DAYS, NATIONAL WERE SORT OF GETTING 45%, 46%, 47% OF THE VOTE, BUT YOU ALSO HAD ACT ON, YOU KNOW, 0.8%, 1.1% ` THERE OR THEREABOUTS, SO THE BROAD CENTRE-RIGHT BLOC IS PRETTY GOOD FOR US AT THIS ELECTION. VERY, VERY SIMILAR, IN SOME SENSES, TO THE JOHN KEY YEARS. AND, LOOK, ULTIMATELY THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE HAVE DELIVERED THE ELECTION OUTCOME FOR US, AND IT'S UP TO THE POLITICIANS NOW TO MAKE IT WORK IN THE NEW PARLIAMENT. SO OBVIOUSLY THE BIG DIFFERENCE FROM THE PRELIMINARY RESULTS ON OCTOBER 14th IS THAT NATIONAL WILL NOW REQUIRE THE SUPPORT OF BOTH ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST IN ORDER TO COMMAND A MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE. SO HOW MUCH DID THE PRICE OF WINSTON PETERS' SUPPORT JUST INCREASE? WELL, LET'S WAIT AND SEE. WE'VE BEEN FORGING RELATIONSHIPS AND HAVING DISCUSSIONS AND CONVERSATIONS OVER THE LAST THREE WEEKS. WHILE WE WAIT FOR THE SPECIAL VOTES TO BE COUNTED. WE FULLY ANTICIPATED THIS. I THINK I SAID TO YOU ON THE MORNING AFTER THE ELECTION, WITH A BIT OF A HANGOVER, I SAID TO YOU, WE EXPECT TO LOSE ONE, POSSIBLY TWO SEATS. I HAD A LITTLE HOPE THAT IT MIGHT JUST BE ONE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS TWO. BUT AS I SAID TO YOU, FULLY ANTICIPATED AND EXPECTED THAT THAT'S WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, AND THAT IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED. THE SPECIAL VOTES TEND TO JUST LEAN LEFT A BIT. AND SO WE'VE JUST BEEN WORKING OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT WE WOULD LOSE VOTES AND THAT WE WOULD NEED BOTH ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST TO GOVERN. SO AS I SAY, WE'VE BEEN PROGRESSING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS, AND NOW THEY JUST STEP UP A NOTCH IN THE COMING DAYS. THAT BEING SAID, THOUGH, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT WINSTON PETERS AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST HAVE MORE LEVERAGE THAN THEY DID ON THOSE PRELIMINARY RESULTS? WELL, BY DEFINITION, MR PETERS AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST, THEIR VOTES ARE NEEDED TO COMMAND CONFIDENCE AND SUPPLY OF THE HOUSE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU NEED TO FORM A GOVERNMENT. ON ELECTION NIGHT, NATIONAL AND ACT DIDN'T; AFTER THE SPECIAL VOTES ARE COUNTED, WE DO, SO IT'S JUST A STATEMENT OF FACT. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PASIFIKA PERSON IN ANY OF THOSE CAUCUSES FOR THE THREE PARTIES LIKELY TO FORM THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR MESSAGE TO PASIFIKA COMMUNITIES WHO FEEL THAT THE NEXT GOVERNMENT IS NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO REFLECT THEIR COMMUNITIES? YEAH, I'M DISAPPOINTED ABOUT THAT. OF COURSE, ANGEE NICHOLAS WON TE ATATU ON THE NIGHT. AND UNFORTUNATELY PHIL TWYFORD HAS TAKEN THAT ONE BACK ON THE SPECIALS. SHE'S AN OUTSTANDING TALENT, RAN A GREAT CAMPAIGN. AND OF COURSE WE'VE GOT AGNES LOHENI, WHO'S A GREAT PASIFIKA CANDIDATE AND FORMER MP, ACTUALLY ` SHE DID TWO YEARS OR SO IN THE LAST PARLIAMENT, OR THE PARLIAMENT BEFORE THE ONE JUST GONE. SO, SHE'S JUST ON THE CUSP ON THE LIST AS WELL. SO IT'S DISAPPOINTING, FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW. I THINK TRADITIONALLY NATIONAL HAS STRUGGLED WITH THE PACIFIC COMMUNITY. THERE'S BEEN A VERY, VERY STRONG CONNECTION BETWEEN THE PASIFIKA COMMUNITY AND THE LABOUR PARTY. WE ARE MAKING REAL EFFORTS THERE, THOUGH. WE'VE GOT THE PACIFIC BLUES IN THE NATIONAL PARTY WHO ARE DOING GREAT WORK. WE RAN SOME REALLY GOOD CANDIDATES IN SOUTH AUCKLAND THIS TIME AROUND. BUT I'M DISAPPOINTED THAT WE HAVEN'T GOT REPRESENTATION IN THE NEW PARLIAMENT. AND, LOOK, THAT'S A WORK IN PROGRESS FOR NATIONAL. WE NEED TO DO MORE TO MAKE OUR CAUCUS MORE DIVERSE, MORE BROADLY REFLECT THE MAKE-UP OF MODERN NEW ZEALAND. AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS MADE THAT REALLY CLEAR. AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, FROM A CAMPAIGN POINT OF VIEW, I FULLY ENDORSE THAT. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT YOU LOVE THE GAME, YOU LOVE ELECTIONS, YOU LOVE POLITICAL THEORY. SO GIVE US YOUR THEORY AS TO WHY SO MANY OF THE MAORI SEATS FLIPPED. I DON'T KNOW IF I LOVE THE GAME SO MUCH. I'M IN PARLIAMENT TO TRY AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IT'S NOT ABOUT GAME-PLAYING FOR ME. I WANT TO TRY AND CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY AND MAKE NEW ZEALAND MORE PROSPEROUS AND ASPIRATIONAL. BUT, YOU KNOW, I OBVIOUSLY LOVE POLITICS AND HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, SO, LOOK, I THINK THERE'LL BE COMMENTATORS WILL HAVE THEIR SAY ON THAT. WHAT'S YOUR SAY? I DON'T PRETEND TO FULLY UNDERSTAND. WELL, I DON'T PRETEND TO FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON THERE. BUT CHRIS HIPKINS DID MAKE THE POINT YESTERDAY THAT MAORI PARTY VOTERS HAVE VOTED FOR THE LABOUR PARTY WITH THEIR PARTY VOTE BUT VOTED FOR MAORI PARTY CANDIDATES, FOR THE MOST PART, WITH THEIR ELECTORATE VOTE. AND SO MAYBE THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT, ON A COLLECTIVE BASIS, TO TRY AND HAVE IT BOTH WAYS TO SOME EXTENT, TO TRY AND HELP THE LABOUR PARTY BY GIVING THEM A PARTY VOTE, BUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO BRINGING IN SOME ADDITIONAL MAORI PARTY MPS. BUT I THINK LABOUR PARTY MPS, PEOPLE LIKE KELVIN DAVIS AND PEENI HENARE, WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, LONG-SERVING MPS AND ALSO SENIOR MINISTERS, I THINK THEY'D BE PRETTY FRUSTRATED BY THAT SORT OF MENTALITY, I SUPPOSE, BECAUSE I THINK THEY WOULD ` YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THEM, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THEY WOULD SAY THEY WANT THOSE ELECTORATE VOTES AS WELL. AND WILLIE JACKSON, I SUSPECT, WOULD AGREE. SO LOOK, I THINK THAT WILL ALL BE PART OF THE POST-ELECTION ANALYSIS AND THE DISCUSSIONS WITHIN THE PARTIES AROUND EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. LOOK, WE'LL DO A FULL REVIEW OF OUR OWN ELECTION CAMPAIGN AS WELL. SO, WHAT IS THE PLAN ON MONDAY? WELL, WE'VE GOT THE RESULTS NOW. WE JUST HAVE TO GO AND FORM THAT GOVERNMENT. AND, AS I SAY, WE'VE BEEN FORGING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS IN DISCUSSIONS ALREADY OVER THE LAST THREE WEEKS, AND THINGS WILL STEP UP A NOTCH NOW. WE'VE BEEN MEETING WITH THE ACT PARTY, WE'VE BEEN MEETING WITH THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST PARTY, AND THOSE DISCUSSIONS AND CONVERSATIONS WILL CONTINUE. AND WHEN WE'RE READY TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, YOU WILL BE ONE OF THE FIRST TO KNOW, JACK. WHAT DO YOU MEAN, 'ONE OF'? WELL, YOU'LL BE ON THE PRESS RELEASE LIST. YOU'LL FIND OUT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. SO, NO, I'M INTERESTED IN THE NUTS AND BOLTS, THOUGH. MONDAY MORNING, DO YOU ALL GATHER IN A ROOM? I MEAN, I APPRECIATE THAT YOU MIGHT BE DOING NEGOTIATIONS ONE PARTY AT A TIME, BUT DO YOU ALL GATHER IN A ROOM IN WELLINGTON? HOW DOES THAT WORK? OH, LOOK, I DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH GETTING INTO THE NUTS AND BOLTS OF IT. I DON'T THINK ANYONE'S PARTICULARLY INTERESTED ABOUT WHERE WE MEET AND WHO'S THERE. I'M INTERESTED. I'M DEAD INTERESTED. I KNOW. AND OUR VIEWERS ARE INTERESTED. YOU KNOW THEY ARE TOO. YEAH, YEAH. (LAUGHS) ALL I CAN SAY TO YOU IS THAT THERE ARE MEETINGS HAPPENING. THEY'RE IN LARGELY BORING ROOMS. THERE'S NOTHING PARTICULARLY EXCITING ABOUT IT. THE COFFEE'S NOT... THE COFFEE'S OK. THE SANDWICHES ARE ALL RIGHT. WE'RE HAVING THE MEETINGS. OK. AND, YOU KNOW... THROW ME ONE BONE. THROW ME ONE BONE. GIVE ME ONE LITTLE FLICKER OF DETAIL. I'M NOT GOING TO ASK ABOUT THE OTHER PARTIES, BUT CAN YOU TELL ME WHO IS IN THE ROOM FOR NATIONAL? LOOK, I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE DETAILS OF IT. I CAN SAY TO YOU THAT I'VE BEEN IN THE ROOM OVER THE LAST THREE WEEKS, CHRISTOPHER LUXON, NICOLA WILLIS AS WELL, AND THERE'S BEEN A RANGE OF OTHER PEOPLE AT VARIOUS POINTS OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS AS WELL, AS WE SIT DOWN AND HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS AND NEGOTIATIONS. BUT IT'S EXACTLY WHO YOU WOULD EXPECT TO BE IN THE ROOM ACROSS THE PARTIES. OK, SO YOU SAID AFTER ELECTION NIGHT ` WHEN YOU HAD THE HANGOVER, NOT ME ` THAT YOU THOUGHT NATIONAL WOULD LOSE ONE OR MAYBE TWO SEATS. YOU WERE RIGHT ON THAT POINT, SO I'M GOING TO GIVE PUNDIT CHRIS BISHOP ANOTHER CHANCE TO PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND. THIS TIME NEXT WEEK ` SUNDAY MORNING NEXT WEEK ` WHAT ARE THE CHANCES WE HAVE A DEAL AND A NEW GOVERNMENT? (CHUCKLES DRYLY) LOOK, I'M NOT A BETTING PERSON. I'LL LEAVE THAT OVER TO KIERAN MCANULTY. I DON'T TAKE PUNTS. LET'S JUST WAIT AND SEE. PREPARING TO SIT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE NEGOTATION TABLE IS ACT LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR. KIA ORA. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. ARE YOU PREPARED TO PUT A STAKE IN THE GROUND THIS TIME NEXT WEEK WILL BE HAVE A DEAL AND A GOVERNMENT? I CERTAINLY HOPE SO, BECAUSE PEOPLE VOTED FOR CHANGE TO ADDRESS SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES. THAT OUR WHOLE COUNTRY FACES HOWEVER, I AM ONE OF THREE PARTS OF A NEGOTIATION. THE OUTCOME OF THAT IS NOT DETERMINED BY ANY ONE PERSON. COMPARED TO ELECTION NIGHT, HOW HAS THE LEVERAGE CHANGED FOR NEGOTIATIONS FOR BOTH ACT AND ZEALAND FIRST? IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IT IS CLEAR THAT YOU HAD TWO PARTIES GOVERNMENT POSSIBLE; NOW YOU HAVE A THREE PARTY GOVERNMENT NECESSARY. THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE ALL THREE PARTIES TO COME TOGETHER WITH A WORKABLE ARRANGEMENT TO DELIVER A STABLE GOVERNMENT AND FROM THAT BASE, THE POLICY CHANGE THAT NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE COLLECTIVELY ASKED FOR. THOSE REQUIRING NEW ZEALAND FIRST DIMINISH ACTS LEVERAGE? THIS IS ALMOST LIKE A MATHS TEST. LOGICALLY YES. NATIONAL, FOR THAT MATTER, BECAUSE YOU ARE DIVIDED BY THREE SET OF TWO. INTERNATIONAL HAD RULED OUT WORKING WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST EARLIER IN THE CAMPAIGN, WOULD WE HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT ELECTION RESULT? THE COUNTRIES ALREADY GOT A PRETTY GOOD SUPPLY OF POLITICAL COMMENTATORS AND PUNDITS WITHOUT ME JOINING IN. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY WOULD, COULD HAVE DONE THIS OR THAT DIFFERENTLY. WHAT MOST PEOPLE CAN SEE AS WE HAVE AN ELECTION RESULT THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN, AND THE VOTER IS KING AND QUEEN AND AN ELECTION IN A DEMOCRACY LIKE OURS. WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN NOW IS THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED TO GOVERNMENT HAVE TO TAKE THAT TRUST THAT HAS BEEN PUT IN A SERIOUSLY AND START DELIVERING WHAT PEOPLE REALLY WANT, WHICH IS POLICY SOLUTIONS. YOU ARE IN A RETREAT WITH YOUR CAUCUS MEMBERS TODAY. WHO IS GOING TO BE IN THE ROOM FOR ACT ONCE NEGOTIATIONS BEGIN TOMORROW IN PERSON? PRETTY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE HAVE HAD TALKING TO THE GNATS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS. WE HAVE HAD MYSELF, BROOKLYN BELDEN, NICOLE, OUR CHIEF OF STAFF AND A REPRESENTATIVE FROM OUR PARTY BOARD. BASICALLY A PARALLEL FOR THE NATIONAL PARTY HAD DONE. WHY DO YOU THINK TE PATI MAORI PICKED UP SO MANY SEATS? I HEARD YOUR INTERVIEW WITH CHRIS BISHOP. POSSIBLY YOU GOT SOME TACTICAL VOTING BEHAVIOUR. I WOULD ALSO SAY THEY'VE MADE A LOT OF PROMISES. THEY CAMPAIGNED ON HOPE AND I HOPE THEY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THE CHALLENGE FOR THEM WILL BE TO GO BEYOND THE TICK-TOCK THEATRICS AND SAY HOW DO YOU GET BETTER HOUSING, BETTER EDUCATION, JOBS AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY? THOSE OF THE REAL CHALLENGES. WHEN IT COMES TO MEETING THOSE CHALLENGES, NOT JUST FOR ONE ETHNIC GROUP, BUT EVERYBODY WHO LIVES IN NEW ZEALAND, IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT TO HAVE SOLUTIONS AND DEMONSTRATE MEASURABLE SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS BEFORE THE VOTERS CHECK IN ON US AND ANOTHER THREE YEARS TIME. IT IS INTERESTING YOU NOTE TE PATI MAORI MESSAGING, BECAUSE IT HAS DEFINED AS MESSAGING BY WHAT IT SAYS ARE TIRITI- CENTRIC VALUES. GIVEN THE RESULTS, RESULT GIVEN 6 SEATS ONE, WHAT IS THAT OUTCOME SAY ABOUT THE RESPONSE AMONG COMMUNITIES TO A REFERENDUM? A LOT LESS THAN YOU IMAGINE. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT OVER HALF OF MAORI DON'T AND ROLL ON THE MAORI ROLE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE PARTY VOTE NATIONWIDE, ALL OF NEW ZEALAND, TE PATI MAORI GOT ABOUT 3%. IT IS LESS THAN ONE IN SIX WHO IDENTIFY AS MAORI. WHAT THE ELECTION HAS SHOWN IS THAT THE PARTICULAR BRAND OF POLITICS, THE ATTITUDES AND THE STYLE THAT THEY BRING, IS VERY MUCH A MINORITY VIEW WITHIN MAORIDOM AND A TINY MINORITY VIEW WITH A NEW ZEALAND AS A WHOLE. WILL ACT SUPPORT A GOVERNMENT WITHOUT A GUARANTEE OF THE REFERENDUM? THAT WOULD BE A NEGOTIATION VIA MEDIA, WHICH EVERYONE INVOLVED HAS PROMISED NOT TO DO. ACTS POSITION, RATHER THAN OTHER PEOPLE'S POSITION, IS THAT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY ARE SOMETHING THAT DESERVE TO BE DEBATED BY ALL NEW ZEALANDERS, NOT JUST THE COURTS, NOT JUST WAITANGI, NOT JUST PUBLIC SERVICE, BUT EVERYBODY AFFECTED BY CONSTITUTIONAL SETTINGS. THE PRINCIPLES BY WHICH WE VIEW THE TREATY IN THE PRESENT-DAY ARE A CRITICAL PART OF THAT TREATY SETTING. THAT CONSTITUTIONAL SETTING. IT HAS BEEN TO FIND AND BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, AND THEY NEED TO BE DEFINED AND OPEN DEBATE, LIKE YOU WOULD EXPECT A LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY. . AFTER THE BREAK ` ON THE CURRENT NUMBERS, TE PATI MAORI HAS TRIPLED THE SIZE OF ITS CAUCUS. BUT WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE ROLE OF LABOUR'S MAORI CAUCUS? WILLIE JACKSON IS WITH US, LIVE. I'M FEELING GREAT. WELL, WE'RE HERE. I'M FEELING LIKE WE HAVE DONE WHAT WE SET OUT TO DO, AND PARTICULARLY FOR TAI TOKERAU AND TAMAKI. SO WE'RE HERE, AND WE'RE READY. SO YOU MIGHT RECALL RAWIRI'S PEBBLE IN THE SHOE STORY ` SO NOW THERE'S A BUNCH OF PEBBLES. IT'S NEARLY LIKE A PEBBLE BED. THAT WAS NEW TE PATI MAORI MP MARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI SPEAKING TO US ON FRIDAY, JUST MINUTES AFTER THE RELEASE OF THE SPECIAL VOTES, WHICH SHOWED THE PARTY PICKING UP AN ADDITIONAL TWO SEATS FROM THE PRELIMINARY ELECTION NIGHT RESULTS. WILLIE JACKSON IS A SENIOR MEMBER OF LABOUR'S MAORI CAUCUS. GOOD MORNING. WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MAORI SEATS? FIRST OF ALL, CONGRATULATIONS. IT WAS A FANTASTIC RESULT FOR THEM, AND THEIR STRATEGY OF CONCENTRATING ON YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE COME OFF, IN TERMS OF THE ELECTORAL VOTES, AND I KNOW THESE PEOPLE, SOME OF THEM ARE MY FRIENDS AND RELATIONS. YOU HAVE TO CELEBRATE FOR THEM. AT THE SAME TIME, I AM DISAPPOINTED FOR OUR GROUP, BUT WE LOST SIX ELECTORATE SEATS. WE MIGHT GET ONE OF THEM BACK. BUT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE MISSING IS THAT WE GOT JUST UNDER 85,000 VOTES, IN TERMS OF THE PARTY VOTE, SO THAT SHOWS OUR PEOPLE ARE STRATEGIC, SO I CONGRATULATE TE PATI MAORI, THAT OUR PEOPLE TO, BECAUSE THEY WENT FOR 241. YOU CAN'T PUT IT ALL DOWN TWO STRATEGIC VOTING. THERE IS A LOT OF THAT IN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE. BECAUSE WHEN I WAS ON THE CAMPAIGN, PEOPLE WERE SAYING WE ARE VOTING FOR YOU, BUT NOT YOUR CANDIDATE. SO MANY INITIATIVES THAT LABOUR HAS ROLLED OUT. PEOPLE ARE PROUD OF SOME OF THE STUFF WE DID. MATARIKI, INCREASED FUNDING FOR TE MATATINI. YOU DON'T GET 85,000 VOTES FOR YOUR PARTY BOAT IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE A GOOD JOB. WHAT DOES IT SAY IN HAURAKI-WAIKATO? WELL DONE TO HANA. NANAIA IS NOT ON THE LIST. NOT EVERYONE WAS STRATEGIC VOTING. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE VOTE, TELL ME WHERE THAT IS REPLICATED IN THE MAINSTREAM AREAS, WHERE IF THE ELECTORATE MP WINS THE SEAT, 99 TIMES OUT OF 100, THEY WIN THE PARTY VOTE. THAT IS NOT THE CASE HERE. TE PATI MAORI MP LOST THE PARTY VOTE. YOU HAVE TO GIVE PEOPLE OUR THE CREDIT. SOME OF OUR PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT NANAIA MAHUTA WAS ON THE LIST. THEY ARE SMART ENOUGH TO BE STRATEGIC AND SOME ELECTORATES, BUT IN HAURAKI-WAIKATO, NOT SWITCHED ON ENOUGH? I DIDN'T SAY THEY WEREN'T SWITCHED ON ENOUGH. STRATEGIC VOTING IS QUITE CLEAR? DO YOU SEE THE STRATEGIC VOTING? YOU DON'T SEE THAT TYPE OF VOTING REPLICATED. 85,000 VOTES FOR LABOUR, 58,000 FOR TE PATI MAORI. WE WENT DECIMATED. YOU NEED TO TALK TO MAIKI. OF COURSE WE ARE DISAPPOINTED. THERE ARE SOME WONDERFUL ELECTORATE MPS WHO LOST THEIR SEATS. THE MAORI CAUCUS IS NOT DECIMATED. EXCEPT FOR NANAIA MAHUTA. ONE OF THE MOST EXPERIENCED MAORI MPS. TE PATI MAORI PERFORM STRONGLY IN THE SPECIAL VOTE COUNT. TE TAI TOKERAU, THEY WENT FROM 500 BEHIND ON PRELIMINARY RESULTS TO 500 AHEAD. THAT INDICATES A LOT OF FIRST-TIME VOTERS AND ROLLED AND VOTED ON THE DAY. WHY WERE TE PATI MAORI ABLE TO MOBILISE VOTERS THAT WAY AND YOU WEREN'T? THEY BROUGHT A LOT OF RESOURCES TO THE TABLE. JOHN TAMIHERE WAS DRIVING IT FROM THE BACK. HE HAD ALL IS ORGANISATIONS. WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING JT SAID TO YOU? HE HAD A COUPLE OF BETS. HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO COUNT PROPERLY. WELL DONE TO HIM. REALLY PROUD OF HIM, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. THEY WENT FROM 0 TO WHERE THEY ARE NOW. AND THE CHALLENGE IS, WHAT OUR PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THEY WANT YOU TO TO WORK TOGETHER. JOHN IS SAYING THE SAME THING. WE ALWAYS HAVE A FEW JOKES. THE MAORI SEATS ARE VOLATILE. YOU HAD WINSTON. YOU HAD WINSTON WINNING THE MAORI SEATS IN 1996. LOST THEM ALL IN 1999. IT'S VOLATILE. OUR PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE WANT TE PATI MAORI AND LABOUR TO WORK TOGETHER. WHY DIDN'T MEKA WHAITIRI WIN? OUR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN STRATEGIC. I DON'T WANT TO DUMP ON HER NOW. THEY HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO ME THROUGH THE YEARS. YOU CAN ASK PEOPLE DOWN THERE. AS STRATEGIC AS THEY WERE ACROSS DIFFERENT SEATS, PEOPLE IN THAT AREA ARE NOT SILLY. THEY MADE THEIR OWN CHOICES. WE HAVE A WONDERFUL CANDIDATE, CUSHLA. I WANT TO MIHI MEKA FOR HER HISTORY. WE STILL HAVEN'T TALKED. ONE DAY. WE SAID KIA ORA TO EACH OTHER ONCE. I WANT TO WISH YOU ALL THE BEST. SHE SERVED LABOUR WELL, SERVED OUR PEOPLE WELL. IT DIDN'T WORK OUT FOR HER. IT WAS THE WRONG CHOICE FOR HER AND THE PARTY. THEY MADE A LOT OF OTHER GOOD CHOICES. WELL DONE TO HER FOR HER TIME. IF IT IS IN THE INTEREST OF MAORI VOTERS WHO STRATEGICALLY VOTE SO YOU BRING IN MORE MPS FOR TE PATI MAORI, INCREASE THE SIZE OF PARLIAMENT, DOES THAT MEAN IN FUTURE ELECTIONS, IT IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF LABOURS MAORI MPS TO CONTEST THOSE ELECTORATE? YOU AND JOHN WERE COMING UP WITH SOME SORT OF STRATEGY. HE WAS SOUNDING SIMILAR TO YOU. I THINK THAT THE RESULT DEMANDS THAT WE LOOK AT THE FUTURE TOGETHER. YOU CAN'T JUST SAY LET'S NOT CONTEST THE SEATS. WHAT DOES LOOKING AT THE FUTURE TOGETHER LOOK LIKE? HOW DO WE BEST UTILISE MMP? THAT IS THE QUESTION. HERE IS THE OTHER SIDE. IF WE HAD 32%, LABOUR, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE CONVERSATION. A LONG WAY FROM 32%. 5% AWAY. IF THAT IS GOING TO BE THE SCENARIO IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT AN ACCOMMODATION STRATEGY. I AM VERY WARY OF THAT. ARE YOU OPEN TO THAT? I AM OPEN TO THE CONVERSATION. WHEN YOU HAVE PEENI HENARE LOSING BY FOUR VOTES, IT IS NOT LIKE THOSE SEATS COULDN'T COME BACK AT THE DROP OF A HAT. THAT MIGHT COME BACK. OUR PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE WANT YOU TO WORK TOGETHER. THE RESULT DEMANDS THAT YOU HAVE KORERO GOING FORWARD. METERIA TUREI WAS CRITICAL ON ELECTION NIGHT. I DIDN'T HEAR HER COMMENTS. SHE SAID SHE FELT YOUR HANDLING OF HE PUAPUA LEAD TO PEOPLE A TALKING ABOUT A CONSPIRACY. SHE IS TALKING NONSENSE. I WANT TO HAVE A TALK TO HER ONE DAY, BECAUSE I DIDN'T REALISE SHE FELT SO STRONGLY ABOUT IT. THE NEXT DAY SHE WAS VERY FRIENDLY. I WASN'T THE PERSON HANDLING HE PUAPUA. IT WAS NANAIA MAHUTA. SHE DID A GOOD JOB. I GOT THE AFTERMATH. I GOT THE COMMENTS THAT SENT WINSTON INTO ECSTASY. WHEN YOU REFLECT ON THE LAST TWO TERMS IN GOVERNMENT, DID LABOURS FAILURE TO ARTICULATE AN ADVOCATE FOR MAORI POLICIES FUEL THE RISE OF OTHER PARTIES? WE GAVE THEM SOME AMMUNITION. BY NOT BEING, IF I AM BEING HONEST, AND THE PRIME MINISTER SAID THIS, WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEARER EARLIER ON ABOUT CO-GOVERNANCE. I CERTAINLY WAS. SO WAS NANAIA MAHUTA. JACINDA WAS. SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE WE ARE COMING FROM. IT IS NOT A MAORI TAKEOVER. THEY ARE SAFE. THAT WAS THE POINT EVERYONE MADE. IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME, WHEN THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL FOR THREE WATERS CAME OUT, AND WE HAD THE GOVERNANCE STRUCTURE, WE ARE MAORI REPRESENTATIVE MADE UP 50% OF BOARDS, AND INTERVIEWS WITH SENIOR LABOUR MPS, ASKING THEM QUESTIONS, DOES THE REPRESENTATION FOR MAORI AND NON-MAORI AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION, EXACTLY EVEN ON THESE BOARDS. YOU NEVER GOT A STRAIGHT ANSWER. YOU GOT DUCKING AND WEAVING. YOUR POINT ABOUT US BEING CLEARER, ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE ADMITTED THAT. BUT WHEN KIERAN MCANULTY AND CHRIS HIPKINS EXPLAINED ALL OF THIS, DIDN'T IT QUELL EVERYTHING? MOST PEOPLE DON'T MIND THOSE SETUPS. SEE MORE TRIES TO MAKE OUT THAT IS SOMETHING OUT OF SOUTH AFRICA. WAS THAT TOO LATE? THAT WAS PROBABLY 12 MONTHS AGO. A BIT LESS THAN. WAS THE OPPOSITION TO 3 WATERS SO GREAT BY THAT STAGE, THAT IT WAS DIFFICULT TO PUT THE GENIE IN THE BOTTLE? I'M GLAD THEY GAVE THE RESPONSE AND THE ANSWER. IN MY VIEW, IT QUELLED EVERYTHING. DESPITE WHAT SEYMOUR KEEPS SAYING, I DON'T BELIEVE CO-GOVERNANCE AND THE MAORI TAKEOVER PLAYED ANY PART IN TERMS OF US LOSING THE ELECTION. IF YOU GO AROUND EVERYWHERE, MOST KIWIS HAVE NO PROBLEMS, IN TERMS OF PARTNERSHIP, CO-GOVERNANCE. SOME OF THEM ARE JUST TALKING IT UP. THAT'S WHY HE ENDED UP WITH HALF THE VOTE HE STARTED WITH. HOW DO YOU THINK NEGOTIATIONS WILL GO? IT'S FASCINATING WATCHING DAVID SEYMOUR AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON. THEY ARE SHOWING WINSTON THE GREATEST RESPECT. THE WAY THEY RAN HIM DOWN, NOT SO MUCH THE INCOMING PRIME MINISTER, DAVID SEYMOUR DIDN'T WANT A BAR OF HIM. HE HAD BILLBOARDS OVER MY APARTMENT IN WELLINGTON, SEYMOUR TALKING ABOUT RUBBISHING WINSTON. HASN'T IT TURNED AROUND? HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN NEW ZEALAND POLITICS AT THE MOMENT, THE PERSON YOU GOT STUCK INTO AND WERE VERY DISRESPECT FOR TWO ON THIS PROGRAM. I DON'T KNOW IF HE WILL EVER COME BACK. WINSTON, AFTER THAT INTERVIEW WITH HIM. AT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DECIMATE SOMEONE IN THESE SHOWS, THEY SEEM TO RISE TO BIGGER HEIGHTS AFTERWARDS. DO YOU THINK CHRIS HIPKINS WILL STAY ON AS LEADER? I HOPE HE DOES. HE HAS YOUR SUPPORT? I HAVE BEEN CLEAR ABOUT THAT. I UPSET OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, EVEN INDIVIDUALS BY BEING CLEAR, GOING INTO CAUCUS AND NOW, I THINK HE COULD BE A GREAT OPPOSITION LEADER. HE HAS THE FIRE, THE PASSION. WATCH THE WAY HE CLEANED THE INCOMING PRIME MINISTER UP IN THE LAST DEBATE. WILL ANYONE CHALLENGE? THAT IS UP TO THE CAUCUS. I DON'T KNOW. PEOPLE ALREADY GET IRRITATED WITH ME BEING SO FRANK AND CLEAR. IF THEY DO, GOOD LUCK TO THEM, BUT CHIPPY HAS MY SUPPORT. ARE YOU COMMITTED TO STAYING FOR THE NEXT TERM? I WAS CLEAR THAT I WAS LOOKING TO LEAVE AFTER THE ELECTION, BUT I HAVE BEEN CONVINCED I A NUMBER OF PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME AND WITHIN THE PARTY TO STAY AROUND, AND I WANT TO STAY, BECAUSE I AM NERVOUS ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BECOMING, IN TERMS OF THIS NONSENSICAL TREATY REFERENDUM. IF THEY TRY TO PUSH THAT THROUGH, IT WILL BE '81 SPRINGBOK TOUR, CIVIL UNREST TIMES FIVE. VIOLENCE? ONE HOPES NOT. THAT IS NOT SOMETHING MAORI HAVE ADVOCATED, BUT I DON'T THINK WE WOULD MANAGE IT OR CONTROL IT, WHEN I HEAR FROM OUR PEOPLE, SURELY THEY ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT, AFTER WE USED THE SYSTEM, AFTER WE WENT THROUGH THE COURT, AFTER MAORI MORTGAGE HOMES AND LIVES, UTILISING THE SYSTEM, AND GOT VICTORIES, AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY ARE GOING TO CHANGE THE RULES. I DON'T THINK WE COULD MANAGE IT IN THIS COUNTRY. I HOPE THEY SHOW COMMON SENSE. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, YOU CAN FIND US ON X OR FACEBOOK. AFTER THE BREAK ` WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR PALESTINIANS TO ACHIEVE SELF-DETERMINATION? WE LOOK AT THE BROADER PALESTINIAN STRUGGLE AND MEET THE MAORI LEADER WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY CONNECTION. AS THE CONFLICT IN GAZA ENTERS ITS FIFTH WEEK, THIS MORNING, WE WANT TO BRING YOU THE PERSPECTIVE OF A NEW ZEALANDER WITH A UNIQUE CONNECTION TO THE REGION. IN THE EARLY 2000s NEW ZEALANDER CHRIS TOOLEY WAS AWARDED THE PRESTIGIOUS BILL GATES SCHOLARSHIP TO CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY TO STUDY SELF-DETERMINATION MOVEMENTS. FROM CONSIDERING SELF-DETERMINATION THROUGH A MAORI LENS, CHRIS ENDED UP FOCUSING ON PALESTINE. HE TRAVELLED THROUGH THE MIDDLE EAST AND WORKED ALONGSIDE PROMINENT PALESTINIAN LEADERS TO DEVELOPED A MODEL FOR PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION. TODAY CHRIS IS THE CEO OF HEALTH PROVIDER TE PUNA ORA O MATAATUA. I VISITED HIM IN WHAKATANE THIS WEEK, AND BEGAN BY ASKING WHAT IT'S BEEN LIKE WATCHING THE CONFLICT OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS. LOOK, IT'S PRETTY HORRIFIC WATCHING THE SCENES PLAY OUT. YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY DIRE FOR CIVILIANS ON BOTH SIDES, IN PARTICULAR PALESTINIANS ` YOU KNOW, WATCHING THE NUMBERS INCREASE. UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S A BIT OF DEJA VU. WE'VE BEEN HERE TIME AND TIME AGAIN. YOU KNOW, SO MANY TIMES THESE KINDS OF ESCALATIONS HAVE INCREASED. YOU THINK OF HAMAS LAUNCHING THE ROCKETS, YOU KNOW, BEFORE IT WAS ISLAMIC JIHAD, BEFORE IT WAS AL-AQSA BRIGADE, AND SO FORTH. AND THEN WHEN YOU THINK ON THE SIDE OF PALESTINIANS, YOU KNOW, ISRAELIS HAVE GONE INTO GAZA, THEY HAVE GONE INTO THE WEST BANK BEFORE. YOU'RE SEEING ASYMMETRICAL POWER PLAY OUT. YOU REALLY HAVE TO WONDER, WHAT IS THE END GAME? WHERE IS THIS GOING? WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? YEAH. I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR WORK AROUND PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION. BUT I THINK IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL FOR VIEWERS IF YOU CAN TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR OWN STORY. HOW DID YOU END UP AT CAMBRIDGE? (CHUCKLES) IN THE NICEST POSSIBLE WAY. WELL, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED WITH THE CONCEPT OF SELF-DETERMINATION, AND SO IN MY MASTERS AT AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY, I WAS ALWAYS LOOKING AT SELF-DETERMINATION FROM A TE AO MAORI POINT OF VIEW, TINO RANGATIRA ` HOW CAN WE ACHIEVE IT? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO ACHIEVE IT? AND HOW DO YOU KIND OF BUILD STEPS OR PROCESSES TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, REACHING THAT GOAL? AND AFTER I COMPLETED THAT PIECE OF WORK, I CERTAINLY BECAME INTERESTED IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA, BECAUSE SELF-DETERMINATION IS VERY MUCH AN INTERNATIONAL CONCEPT. IT'S A WESTERN CONCEPT. AND OFTEN GROUPS THAT ARE STRUGGLING FOR SELF-DETERMINATION ARE NOT WESTERN, AND SO YOU'RE ALWAYS GETTING THIS KIND OF CULTURAL TENSION. SO I REALLY WANTED TO MAP WHAT SELF-DETERMINATION WAS. AND SO WHEN I WAS LOOKING OVERSEAS AND REALLY WANTING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF NEW KNOWLEDGE TO BRING BACK HOME, I LEARNT THAT DURING THE ENLIGHTENMENT PROJECT, PRIOR TO THE SELF-DETERMINATION BECOMING POLITICAL, THERE WAS A LOT OF ACTIVITY IN AND AROUND CAMBRIDGE. SO IN THE CONTEXT OF THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT, IS SELF-DETERMINATION STATEHOOD, A TWO-STATE SOLUTION? PALESTINE HAS A VERY LONG HISTORY. IF WE TAKE A LINE IN THE SAND AND JUST LOOK AT MODERN PALESTINE HISTORY, THE STARTING POINT WOULD HAVE TO BE AROUND 1947, WHEN YOU THINK OF POST-UN DEVELOPMENT. UP UNTIL THEN, THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL-PALESTINE HAD BEEN OCCUPIED BY PALESTINIANS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS VERY MUCH A CARVE-UP OF ALL THE DIFFERENT EMPIRES AFTER WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN EMPIRE, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE. SELF-DETERMINATION WAS USED AS A TOOL BY THE AMERICANS, BY THE FRENCH, BY THE BRITISH, TO REALLY CARVE UP THESE COUNTRIES IN RELATION TO THEIR OWN INTERESTS. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE IS SOME CONNECTION BY PALESTINIANS BACK TO THAT PARTICULAR TIME. BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU FAST FORWARD A COUPLE OF DECADES, AND ESPECIALLY WITHIN NOWADAYS, A LOT OF THE PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION IS ACTUALLY BASED ON A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, PARTICULARLY AROUND THE 1967 BORDERS, RIGHT? THE 1967 BORDERS, OR WHAT WE CALL THE GREEN LINE. SO YOU TRAVEL FROM NEW ZEALAND TO CAMBRIDGE, YOU STUDY SELF-DETERMINATION, YOU FIND YOURSELF IN THE MIDDLE EAST DEVELOPING A THEORETICAL MODEL FOR PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION. YOU TRAVEL THROUGH SYRIA, LEBANON, THE WEST BANK, GAZA. WHAT WAS YOUR IMPRESSION OF THE REGION DURING THAT EXPERIENCE? YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU DO GO TO THE PLACE ITSELF, YOU FIND THAT IT'S QUITE COMPRESSED. IT'S HIGHLY DENSE. THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS NOT THE BEST. THEY'RE LIVING OFF VERY TOUGH CONDITIONS. THEY HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY HUMOUR, BUT THERE IS A REAL KIND OF,... YOU KNOW, SENSE THAT THEY HAVE LOST SOMETHING, AND... YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. THEY CAN'T SEE A WAY FORWARD. THE THING ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION IS THEY'RE SO FRAGMENTED, RIGHT? THEY'RE IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST, THEY'RE IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF PALESTINE. AND NOT BEING ABLE TO MAKE THOSE CONNECTIONS, NOT BEING ABLE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER, IS QUITE OVERWHELMING. AND EVEN JUST GETTING AROUND ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, WHEN YOU'RE GOING THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT CHECKPOINTS, YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, TIME YOUR MOVEMENT SO YOU CAN GET BACK TO WHERE YOU NEED TO BE IN TIME, AND SO FORTH. SO IT'S TOUGH, BECAUSE... THERE IS NO NATIONAL UNITY, RIGHT? THERE'S NO NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS. AND SO THEY'RE REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO A VISION. AND THIS IS THE PALESTINIAN WHANAU OR CIVILIANS ON THE GROUND. AND UNFORTUNATELY LEADERSHIP HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO DELIVER THAT FOR THEM. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY THERE FOR LEADERSHIP TO COME THROUGH AND REALLY MOBILISE THAT CONSCIOUSNESS. WHY IS THAT? WHY IS THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT, IF I CAN DEEM IT IN THOSE TERMS, SO FRAGMENTED? LOOK, YOU'VE GOT SO MANY DIFFERENT MOVING PARTS. AND IF WE JUST SIMPLY START WITH LOCATION, RIGHT? YOU HAVE, OBVIOUSLY, PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, RIGHT, THAT HAVE LEADERSHIP WITH HAMAS AND HAVE A VERY STRONG ISLAMIC FOCUS ON THAT. AND THEN YOU HAVE WEST BANK, WHICH IS CONTROLLED BY PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND THEY COME FROM MORE OF A SUNNI BACKGROUND, RATHER THAN THE SHIA BACKGROUND OF HAMAS. BUT YOU'VE GOT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE KIND OF PA, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, THAT'S, THEY'RE GETTING INTO THEIR 90S NOW. COMPLETELY DISENGAGED FROM PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, AND IT'S MORE OF A HANGOVER FROM PLO DAYS. AND THEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE REFUGEES ` REFUGEES IN SYRIA, LEBANON, JORDAN, YOU KNOW ` AND YOU THINK OF THE SYRIAN WAR, AND THE MIGRATION THAT HAD TO OCCUR, RIGHT, WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT CAMPS MOVING AROUND. AND THERE'S ALSO A POPULATION WITHIN ISRAEL ITSELF. 20% OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION IS ARAB OR PALESTINE. AND SO THEY'RE KIND OF TRAPPED, RIGHT, WITHIN THE BORDERS OF ISRAEL. AND SO ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS FOR PALESTINE IS THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO OR HAVEN'T HAD THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE, HAVEN'T HAD THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE. THEY SIMPLY CAN'T COME TOGETHER AND COLLECTIVELY DISCUSS OR TALK TO ONE ANOTHER, BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING KEPT IN THESE SILOS, THESE PRISONS, THEY'RE BEING CONTROLLED IN RELATION TO THEIR MOVEMENT, THEIR TIME, AND THEY SIMPLY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO HAVE THAT FIRST STEP FORWARD IN RELATION TO HOW ONE WOULD WANT TO ASSERT SELF-DETERMINATION. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT PALESTINIAN SELF-DETERMINATION AND THE STRUGGLES OF THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT, WHAT ROLE DOES ISRAEL PLAY? WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S... I MEAN, THAT'S THE QUESTION, ISN'T IT? WHEN WE SEE PEOPLE CALLING FOR A CEASEFIRE, THAT'S SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH. CEASEFIRE GOES BACK TO A STATUS QUO, RIGHT, IN WHICH PALESTINIANS, RIGHT, ARE STILL HAVING THEIR LAND APPROPRIATED THROUGH ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS, ARE STILL CONFINED IN RELATION TO MOVEMENT, PRISONERS, DETAINEES. THEY DON'T HAVE ABILITY TO CONTROL WATER, FOR EXAMPLE. THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO CONTROL SUPPLY CHAINS OR WHATEVER. AND SO THIS IS STATUS QUO. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO BREAK THE BINARY, RIGHT? WE CANNOT RELY ON PALESTINIANS AND ISRAEL WORKING IT THROUGH. AND HOW DO YOU DO THAT? WELL, YOU NEED TO BRING IN A THIRD PARTY. THE UN HAS A PARTICULAR ROLE, RIGHT, IN RELATION TO THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL MANDATE THAT THIS IS THEIR ROLE, WHEN IT COMES IN, TO BROKERING PEACE. AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN THERE HAVE BEEN RESOLUTIONS THAT HAVE COME UP BEFORE THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL THAT HAVE BEEN VETOED TIME AND TIME AGAIN, AND IT'S USUALLY BY THE US. AND I JUST THINK BACK TO WHEN GAZA WAS LAST INVADED, WHERE THERE WAS A UN SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION TO HAVE A UN PEACEKEEPING FORCE TO GO INTO GAZA JUST TO OBSERVE ` JUST TO OBSERVE. AND THAT WAS VETOED. AND SO, EVEN THOUGH WE'VE GOT THOSE KIND OF GEOPOLITICS AT PLAY, WE STILL HAVE TO PUSH FORWARD THE IDEA THAT THE BINARY NEEDS TO BE BROKEN AND THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE INTERNATIONAL INVOLVEMENT, RIGHT, IN BROKERING PEACE. AND OVER TIME, WE CAN ACTUALLY MOVE TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, PALESTINIANS BOTH IN GAZA AND WEST BANK ACTUALLY COMING TOGETHER AND ACTUALLY HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE WAY FORWARD. THE ISSUE WITH HAMAS IS THAT THEY ARE EXTREMISTS. THEY ARE TERRORISTS, RIGHT? THEY HAVE A WHAKAPAPA WHICH GOES BACK TO HEZBOLLAH, WHICH GOES BACK TO IRAN. THEIR ARRIVAL IN GAZA WAS ONE OF OPPORTUNITY ANYWAY, BECAUSE WHEN YASSER ARAFAT WAS EXPELLED, RIGHT, IT LEFT A BIG POWER VACUUM WITHIN GAZA, AND THAT WAS FILLED. AND PALESTINIANS ON THE GROUND HAVE ACTUALLY ACCEPTED THAT WHEN THERE IS NO POLITICAL SOLUTION, OR WHEN THERE'S NO ENDGAME IN PLACE, ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS PRETTY MUCH HAVE MORE INFLUENCE IN THAT PARTICULAR ENVIRONMENT. SO IF WE ARE ABLE TO GET INTO WEST BANK AND GET INTO GAZA AND OFFER THE ABILITY FOR DIALOGUE, FOR PALESTINIANS TO DIALOGUE, TO GET SOME KIND OF NATIONAL UNITY, GET NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS, AND ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT BUILDING DIFFERENT LEADERSHIP STRUCTURES, THEN THAT'S THE WAY FORWARD. WHAT ROLE SHOULD VIOLENCE PLAY WHEN IT COMES TO PURSUING SELF-DETERMINATION? YOU KNOW, VIOLENCE CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED. REGARDLESS OF WHICH SIDE YOU'RE ON, VIOLENCE BRINGS A DEHUMANISM TO THE CONFLICT. AND, YOU KNOW, IT NEVER WINS. WHEN YOU WORK THROUGH CONCEPTS OF SELF-DETERMINATION, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO WORK THROUGH CONCEPTS OF POWER AT THE SAME TIME. AND SO EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL BINARY POWER, ON THE GROUND ` AND BINARY POWER IS WHAT WE THINK IN RELATION TO SETTLEMENTS, IN RELATION TO WARS, IN RELATION TO TANKS, IN RELATION TO ROCKETS BEING FIRED BY HAMAS ` THAT'S BINARY POWER, BUT THAT BINARY POWER IS CONTROLLED IN RELATION TO WIDER WHAT WE CALL HEGEMONIC OR DISCURSIVE POWER. AND SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT ALLOWS... UM... YOU KNOW, IN THIS CASE ISRAEL TO CONTINUE WITH THE SETTLEMENTS, WHAT ALLOWS ISRAEL THE RIGHT OF PRE-EMPTION, WHAT ALLOWS ISRAEL THE RIGHT OF COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY, WHAT ALLOWS ISRAEL THE RIGHT OF DEFENCE, RIGHT, IS KIND OF SUSTAINED BY THIS HEGEMONIC DISCOURSE. AND SO... CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE ON THAT, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT HEGEMONIC DISCOURSE MEANS? YOU MEAN THE WAY IN WHICH THE DISPUTE ` IF WE CAN FRAME IT THAT WAY ` IS FRAMED, RIGHT? YEAH. IT'S THE NARRATIVE. RIGHT? AND WHEN IT COMES TO HEGEMONY, THIS IS THE REALM OF COLONISATION. THIS IS THE REALM OF RACISM. THIS IS THE REALM IN WHICH ALL THAT KIND OF TERRORISM DISCOURSE IS DEPLOYED, OK? AND WITHIN THIS REALM, JUDGEMENTS ARE BEING MADE AROUND WHAT IT IS TO BE HUMAN, WHAT IT IS TO BE NORMAL, WHAT IT IS TO ORGANISE YOURSELF IN A POLITICAL WAY. WHAT IS THE ROLE OF OTHER ARAB NATIONS IN THIS CONFLICT? YEAH, SO THE ARAB LEAGUE IN PARTICULAR HAS A HUGE ROLE TO PLAY. THEY NEED TO PLAY A STRONGER ROLE. THE PROBLEM IS THAT, AGAIN, YOU GET THE SUNNI-SHIITE SPLIT ACROSS THE ARAB WORLD, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'VE GOT HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH AND IRAN, SORT OF, YOU KNOW, WORKING THAT PARTICULAR ANGLE, WHEREAS MOST OF THE OTHER ARAB STATES, PARTICULARLY WITHIN THE ARAB LEAGUE, TAKE A SUNNI POINT OF VIEW. IF PALESTINE WAS TO ACHIEVE SELF-DETERMINATION, THERE NEEDS TO BE A STRONGER ROLE FOR THE ARAB LEAGUE, ESPECIALLY IN PROVIDING A COUNTERFACTUAL AGAINST THE US POSITION ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, THE US IS KIND OF THE SOLE THIRD PARTY IN RELATION TO OVERSEEING THIS PARTICULAR CONFLICT. AND THE LONGER THAT CONTINUES WITHOUT ANY OTHER PARTICIPATION FROM THE ARAB LEAGUE, IT SIMPLY ISN'T GOING TO WORK. DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF HOPE TODAY THAT THE CAUSE OF PALESTINIANS AND PERHAPS SELF-DETERMINATION OR STATEHOOD CAN BE ADVANCED? UM,... IT'S PRETTY HARD TO SEE A WAY THROUGH AT THE MOMENT. YOU THINK OF THE INCURSIONS GOING THROUGH INTO GAZA RIGHT NOW, AND ALL THE PALESTINIANS HAVING TO FLEE TO THE EGYPTIAN BORDER. WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT? LET'S PLAY THAT OUT AND JUST ASSUME THAT HAMAS IS REMOVED FROM GAZA, WHICH WOULD BE PRETTY HARD, BECAUSE THE LEADERSHIP FROM HAMAS IS NOT EVEN BASED IN GAZA, IT'S BASED IN OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, AND ARE RESOURCED, AGAIN, FROM IRAN. AND SO WHAT'S THE END GAME THERE, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE WEST BANK, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT'S THE ENDGAME THERE, IN RELATION TO CHANGING THE LEADERSHIP? THE POPULATION OF PALESTINE IS JUST GETTING UP TO SIX MILLION. YOU'VE GOT SIX MILLION REFUGEES ALSO WANTING TO COME BACK INTO THE COUNTRY AS WELL. AND SO THAT'S WHY YOU NEED AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. THAT'S WHY YOU NEED AN INTERNATIONAL INTERVENTION TO ACTUALLY COME IN AND START WORKING WITH THOSE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, IF SELF-DETERMINATION IS EVER GOING TO BE ACHIEVED. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE STATUS QUO, YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS REWARDED FOR CONTINUING TO GO BEYOND, RIGHT, THE 1967 BORDERS, WITH THEIR SETTLEMENTS. NO ONE IS INTERVENING TO STOP THEM. NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM PURSUING RESOURCES, WHEN IT COMES TO WATER OR LAND. THERE'S A KIND OF REWARD SYSTEM BY PEOPLE NOT ACTING IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION. AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE... THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE BROKEN UP. AND ONLY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN DO THAT. AFTER THE BREAK ` OUR INTERVIEW CONTINUES. I ASK CHRIS TOOLEY TO TURN HIS ATTENTION TO MAORI SELF-DETERMINATION. HOKI MAI. WELCOME BACK. AFTER HIS EXPERIENCE OVERSEAS, CHRIS TOOLEY WAS A SENIOR ADVISER TO TA PITA SHARPLES DURING HIS TIME IN PARLIAMENT. I ASKED CHRIS TOOLEY TO CONSIDER WHAT THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND FINAL RESULTS MEAN FOR MAORI SELF-DETERMINATION AND RANGATIRATANGA. OVER THE LAST TWO GOVERNMENTS, THERE'S BEEN GOOD PROGRESS MADE IN RELATION TO ADVANCING MAORI RIGHTS. BUT HOWEVER, WHEN YOU THINK OF JUST THE CURRENT ELECTION AND YOU THINK OF SOME OF THE POSITIONS AROUND CO-GOVERNANCE, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT TREATY CLAUSES, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT TREATY REFERENDUM, IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE A PRETTY ROUGH NEXT THREE YEARS, ESPECIALLY BEING HERE AT TE PUNA ORA, OBVIOUSLY THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY IS A HOT TOPIC FOR US, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT HAS ACHIEVED SO MUCH IN SUCH A SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME FOR MAORI HEALTH ACROSS THE MOTU. HAS IT? THAT'S YOUR IMPRESSION? YEAH. THE ARGUMENT IS THAT FORM AND FUNCTION. RIGHT? AND SO YOU'VE GOT NATIONAL AND ACT SIMPLY BELIEVING THAT FUNCTION WILL PROVIDE. TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WHEN IT COMES TO MAORI SELF-DETERMINATION IN PARTICULAR, FORM AND FUNCTION IS REQUIRED. AND SO, YES, WHEN YOU GET THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, EVERYONE'S LOOKING AT DIFFERENT CONTRACTS THAT ARE ROLLING OUT, BUT SITTING IN BEHIND ALL THOSE CONTRACTS, IT'S A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK WHEN IT COMES TO CO-DESIGN. IT'S A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK WHEN IT COMES TO INVOLVING IWI AND MAORI PROVIDERS IN RELATION TO CREATING THAT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ACTUALLY DELIVERS THAT CONTRACT, BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY SUPER IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE COMBINED WITH THE SERVICE DELIVERY COMPONENT. YOU KNOW, WHEN MAORI CONTRACTS WERE BEING DELIVERED OUT OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH FOR DECADES, WE DIDN'T SOLVE INEQUALITY. WE DIDN'T SOLVE THE DISPROPORTIONATE EXPERIENCES BY MAORI AND ALL THE HEALTH OUTCOMES THAT MAORI EXPERIENCE. AND IT SEEMS THAT WE MIGHT BE RETURNING TO THAT PARTICULAR STATUS QUO. SO IN PRACTICAL TERMS, WHAT DOES TINO RANGATIRATANGA ACTUALLY MEAN? IN PRACTICAL TERMS? WELL, THAT'S BEEN SET OUT BY MATIKE MAI, IN RELATION TO THE REPORT THAT WAS DEVELOPED BY MOANA JACKSON. AND SO RANGATIRATANGA IS NOT CO-GOVERNANCE, RIGHT? IT IS NOT IN RELATION TO TREATY CLAUSES THAT SIT WITHIN GOVERNMENT LEGISLATION. THAT RESIDES WITH MAORI AND MAORI ALONE. JUST SEEING WHERE OTHER SELF-DETERMINATION STRUGGLES ARE, WE'RE QUITE WELL PLACED. MAORI CONSCIOUSNESS HAS ALWAYS BEEN STRONG, AND THAT'S THE BACKBONE OF RANGATIRATANGA, HAVING THAT UNITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS, HAVING THAT NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS, BEING ABLE TO... YEAH, SURE, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES, YOU KNOW, BUT ULTIMATELY, EVERYBODY'S ABLE TO MOVE IN THE SAME DIRECTION AS A COLLECTIVE, AND THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. AND SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF POWER AND YOU THINK ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF TRANSFORMATION, WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS THINGS TEND TO HAPPEN IN 20- TO 25-YEAR CYCLES. AND SO WHEN YOU THINK OF THE JOURNEY OF MAORIDOM, IT STARTED WITH KOHANGA ` YOU KNOW, THAT SYMBOLISES THE FIRST KIND OF TRANSFORMATIVE PHASE. CURRENTLY, WE'RE KIND OF SITTING WITHIN THE SECOND PHASE OF THAT PARTICULAR JOURNEY, AND POWER DYNAMICS HAVE CHANGED, AND THE ACTORS HAVE CHANGED. AND SO DURING THIS TIME YOU'RE ABLE TO REVISIT EXISTING SPACES AND LOOK AT HOW WE MIGHT CONSOLIDATE THEM, HOW WE MIGHT CHANGE THEM. AND I GUESS WHEN WE THINK OF EXAMPLES, THEN PERHAPS TE MATAWAI MIGHT BE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS ` YOU KNOW, NEW ENTITY THAT BROUGHT TOGETHER ALL THE DIFFERENT TE REO ENTITIES INTO ONE, AND NOW IT'S PROVIDING A MORE UNITED AND CONSOLIDATED STRATEGY GOING FORWARD IN THAT PARTICULAR SPACE. ALSO IN THIS PARTICULAR PHASE, YOU'RE STARTING TO SEE A LOT OF MATAURANGA STARTING TO BE DEVELOPED. YOU THINK OF MARAMATAKA, MATARIKI, YOU THINK OF TE MATATINI, YOU THINK OF THE GROWTH OF TE REO. ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS ARE BASED ON A RESURGENCE OF MATAURANGA. AND THAT IS NORMALLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT DIFFERENT STRUGGLES AROUND THE WORLD, THIS IS VERY MUCH WITHIN THE SECOND PHASE. GOING FORWARD? WHAT'S THE NEXT PHASE? WELL, THE NEXT PHASE WILL BE AT SOME POINT WE WILL REACH A CRITICAL MASS, A CRITICAL MASS OF FLUENT SPEAKERS, A CRITICAL MASS OF THOSE THAT UNDERSTAND MATAURANGA AND TIKANGA MAORI ` AND I'M JUST TALKING WITHIN MAORIDOM. AND SO THIS CRITICAL MASS SORT OF CREATES KIND OF A RE-CODIFICATION OF, YOU KNOW, EXISTING SPACES. BECAUSE, SIMPLY, KNOWLEDGE STRUCTURES HAVE CHANGED, INTERNAL POWER DYNAMICS HAVE CHANGED, AND SO THAT'LL BE PERHAPS THE NEXT DECADE, GOING FORWARD. AND ULTIMATELY, AT SOME POINT, WE WILL LAND AT THE FOURTH ` AND, YOU KNOW, I WON'T SAY 'LAST', BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW, ` BUT THE FOURTH ONE IS WHERE YOU START TO GET CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE. AND SO, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU THINK OF MOANA JACKSON ALREADY LAYING THE GROUNDWORK WITH MATIKE MAI, WHEN YOU THINK OF PEOPLE LIKE AROHA MEAD OR CLAIRE CHARTERS LAYING THE GROUNDWORK WITH HE PUAPUA, IN RELATION TO IMPLEMENTING THE UN DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND THE ACTION PLAN THAT'S REQUIRED FOR THAT. AND SO, NONE OF THESE PHASES, YOU KNOW, ARE LINEAR. THEY DON'T JUST HAPPEN ONE AFTER ANOTHER, THEY HAPPEN AT MULTIPLE TIMES. THEY HAPPEN TOGETHER, THEY FOLD, THEY OVERLAP. BUT THAT'S THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF TRAVEL WHEN IT COMES TO RANGATIRATANGA. AND SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT JOURNEY, THEN IT KIND OF PUTS INTO PERSPECTIVE, THE CONCEPT OF OR THE DEBATE AROUND CO-GOVERNANCE, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. IT'S QUITE SMALL AND INSIGNIFICANT IN RELATION TO THE WHOLE JOURNEY OF RANGATIRATANGA FOR MAORI. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023.