TENA TATOU KATOA. I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU. WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` THE SPECIALS ARE IN, SO HOW DOES THAT CHANGE WHO'S IN, WHO'S OUT AND WHO NEEDS WINSTON? 29 COUNTRIES SIGN A PLEDGE TO MAKE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SAFE. BUT WHERE WAS NEW ZEALAND? AND ON BACKSTORY, THE NEW MP WHO WAS ONCE A PILOT AND A PERSONAL ASSISTANT TO A PRINCE. CAPTIONS BY SAM BAKER AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 AFTER THREE WEEKS OF WAITING, WE WERE FINALLY DELIVERED MORE THAN 600,000 SPECIAL VOTES AND OUR LARGEST EVER PARLIAMENT. NATIONAL LOST TWO SEATS AND WITH THAT, ANY CHANCE OF GOVERNING ALONE WITH ACT. THE GREENS PICKED UP ONE, AND TE PATI MAORI FLIPPED TWO MORE ELECTORATES, GIVING THEM A TOTAL OF SIX. AND BECAUSE TE PATI MAORI WON MORE ELECTORATES THAN THEIR PARTY SHARE, PARLIAMENT NOW HAS AN OVERHANG OF TWO SEATS, MEANING NATIONAL NEEDS A MAJORITY OF 62 TO RULE, AND THAT MEANS THEY NEED WINSTON PETERS. THAT OVERHANG WILL ACTUALLY INCREASE TO THREE WITH THE PORT WAIKATO BY-ELECTION. FOUR ELECTORATES WERE FLIPPED YESTERDAY. IN NELSON, LABOUR HAS OVERTURNED NATIONAL'S LEAD ` RACHEL BOYACK HAS A MARGIN OF 29 VOTES. ON THE PRELIMINARY COUNT, NATIONAL'S BLAIR CAMERON WAS AHEAD BY 54 VOTES. PHIL TWYFORD HAS RECLAIMED HIS SEAT IN TE ATATU WITH A MARGIN OF 131. HE TOO WAS BEHIND ON THE PRELIMINARY COUNT. AND LOOKING AT THE MAORI SEATS, TWO OF LABOUR'S BIG GUNS ` GONE. KELVIN DAVIS HAS LOST TE TAI TOKERAU TO TE PATI MAORI'S MARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI, WHO'S WON BY 517 AFTER TRAILING BY 487. AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY TIGHTER THAN TAMAKI MAKAURAU ` TE PATI MAORI'S TAKUTAI TARSH KEMP HAS WON THAT BY A TINY MARGIN OF JUST FOUR VOTES, UNSEATING FORMER LABOUR MINISTER PEENI HENARE. WE'LL BE TALKING TO TAKUTAI TARSH KEMP SOON, BUT FIRST, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR FORMING A GOVERNMENT? WELL, ACT PARTY LEADER DAVID SEYMOUR IS AT A ACT PARTY CAUCUS RETREAT IN MT WELLINGTON, AUCKLAND, AND HE JOINS US NOW. KIA ORA, DAVID. HOW ARE YOU THIS MORNING? GOOD MORNING, AND WELL, THANKS, SIMON. I WANT TO KNOW, DAVID ` WHEN DID YOU GET A CALL FROM CHRISTOPHER LUXON YESTERDAY? YOU KNOW WHAT? IF WE START HAVING POLITICS ABOUT THE DRAMA OF WHO CALLED WHO WHEN, THEN WE ARE EVEN FURTHER FROM BEING ABLE TO SOLVE THE SERIOUS CHALLENGES THAT NEW ZEALAND HAS THAN I REALISE. WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT WE ARE ALL TALKING, THAT WE ARE GOING TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, AND THAT IT IS GOING TO BE A GOVERNMENT THAT IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY TOUGH CHALLENGE DEALING WITH THE FISCAL IMPACTS OF THE LAST GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE LEFT US WITH NOT ENOUGH MONEY AT THE END OF THE WEEK, BOTH IN HOUSEHOLDS AND BUSINESSES, BUT ALSO, THE GOVERNMENT'S FINANCES ARE UP AGAINST IT. I CAN GIVE YOU A SERIES MORE ISSUES, BUT I THINK THOSE ARE THE CHALLENGES THAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR ANSWERS ON. OK, BUT WE ARE WAITING, ACTUALLY, TO HAVE THE FORMATION OF THE GOVERNMENT. DOES THIS FINAL ELECTION RESULT THAT YOU HAVE LOST FAVOURED STATUS AS A COALITION PARTNER NOW THAT WINSTON IS NEEDED? NO, I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY. AGAIN, YOU CAN MAKE IT A POPULARITY CONTEST, YOU CAN MAKE IT A DRAMA, OR YOU CAN ASK, WHAT IS THIS GOVERNMENT GOING TO HAVE TO DO? WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT'S GOING TO HAVE TOO SERIOUSLY REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT HAS BEEN, FRANKLY, WASTED, THE AMOUNT OF DEBT THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN ON WITHOUT RAISING PRODUCTIVITY. ACT'S VIEW IS THAT WHAT THE NEXT GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO DO IS TO GO AS HARD ON THAT AS POSSIBLE, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE'LL BE ARGUING FOR, COS IT HAS A REAL IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S LIVES. YEAH, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ARE THE ISSUES. THEY WERE WELL CANVASSED ON THE CAMPAIGN, THAT IS WHAT IS WAITING FOR YOU AS A COALITION GOVERNMENT, BUT WE HAVE GOT TO GET THERE FIRST. RIGHT? YOU HAVE REACHED OUT TO WINSTON PETERS. HE SENT YOU TO VOICEMAIL. DOES THAT CONCERN YOU? FIRST OF ALL, THAT'S NOT TRUE. SECOND OF ALL, I JUST THINK HAVING THAT LEVEL OF DETAILED ARGUMENT, AGAIN, ISN'T QUITE GOING TO HELP, COS YOU ACTUALLY KNOW THE ANSWER. YOU'RE GOING TO NEED THE NUMBERS TO TALK. THE VOTER IS KING AND QUEEN IN AN ELECTION. THEY'VE ASKED US TO WORK TOGETHER, THAT IS WHAT WE SHALL DO, AND, OF COURSE, WE'LL HAVE TO TALK. IF YOU WANT TO GET INTO THE TECHNICALITIES OF HOW PHONES WORK, THEN YOU CAN. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S... I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S THE LEVEL OF DEBATE THAT NEW ZEALANDERS WANT. YOU'VE GOT TO TALK TO A COALITION PARTNER. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE HERE. THIS HAS BEEN A REVERSAL FOR YOU. AT ONE STAGE DURING THE CAMPAIGN, YOU WERE SAYING WE COULD SIT ON THE CROSSBENCHES AND VOTE FOR EACH PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT'S GONE THROUGH, SO YOU'VE HAD TO FLIP ON THIS, HAVEN'T YOU? NO, I MEAN, I AM NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE THROUGH THE MEDIA. BUT THAT IS STILL A LOGICAL POSSIBILITY. WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REPRESENT OUR VOTERS AND DO WHAT WE SEE AS BEING BEST FOR NEW ZEALAND. AND THAT CAN HAVE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS OF FITTING TOGETHER. OF COURSE, IT IS ALSO TRUE, THAT I HAVE SAID THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN AND SINCE, THAT OUR STRONG PREFERENCE IS A STABLE, UNITED GOVERNMENT WITH NATIONAL, AND THE PEOPLE ARE ASKING US TO FORM ONE WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST. SO ACTUALLY, THAT HASN'T CHANGED AT ALL. IT REMAINS JUST AS RELEVANT AS EVER. YESTERDAY, YOU WERE STILL TALKING AS IF CRIME AND A REFERENDUM ON THE TREATY WERE NON-NEGOTIABLES OR YOUR BOTTOM LINES. ARE THEY? COULD THAT REALLY WORK, OR ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE TO WALK THOSE BACK? ARE YOU WALKING THOSE BACK IN YOUR NEGOTIATIONS? NO, I AM NOT. FRANKLY, THE TREATY OF WAITANGI IS A BEAUTIFUL DOCUMENT. IT IS A DOCUMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD. THE WAY THE COURTS, THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, AND THE BUREAUCRACY HAVE INTERPRETED IT OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH EITHER THE TREATY OR WHAT WORKS IN DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES TO GIVE EACH PERSON A DIGNIFIED PLACE IN THEIR NATION STATE. SO YOU ARE NOT WALKING THAT BACK. THAT IS A DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THAT YOU COULD GET THIS OVER THE LINE ` A COALITION AGREEMENT ` THIS WEEK? AS YOU SAID, A MATTER OF DAYS, EVEN THIS WEEK. IS THAT SERIOUS, OR IS THAT A POSITION OF YOURS TO SAY, 'LOOK, WE SAID WE COULD DO IT QUICKLY, 'AND THE OTHER GUYS AREN'T COMING TO THE TABLE?' IT'S POSITIONAL. WHERE WE'RE AT IS ACT HAS A VERY DEVELOPED SET OF POLICIES. WE'VE GOT TALENTED PEOPLE READY TO TAKE POSITIONS IN GOVERNMENT, AND WE KNOW WHAT WE WANT OUT OF THOSE NEGOTIATIONS. OF COURSE, IT DEPENDS ON WHEN YOU GET TO MEET THE OTHERS, AND WE HAVE MET ONE PARTY. WE HAVEN'T MET THE OTHER ONE YET. THEN YOU START TO UNDERSTAND WHETHER IT'S POSSIBLE THAT YOU'VE GOT ENOUGH ALIGNMENT, ALSO WHAT IS THEIR ATTITUDE AND TONE, AND AT THAT POINT, YOU GET TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE TIMEFRAME IS. BUT COULD WE DO A DEAL IN THAT TIME? YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. OK, SO DOES THAT MEAN` YOU HAVEN'T MET ONE PARTY. OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S NEW ZEALAND FIRST. WHAT IS HAPPENING THIS WEEKEND? BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, CHRISTOPHER LUXON WANTS TO GET CRACKING ON WITH IT. HE WANTS TO FORM A STABLE GOVERNMENT. I THINK HE SAID THAT 14 TIMES IN THE PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY. ARE YOU ACTIVELY NEGOTIATING THIS WEEK, AND ARE YOU PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THE NEGOTIATIONS? WHAT IS GOING ON? BECAUSE TIME IS, AS YOU SAY, OF ESSENCE. WELL, THIS WEEKEND, WE ARE TAKING SOME TIME FOR OUR CAUCUS. WE HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING TO OTHER PARTIES IN THE LAST WEE WHILE, SO WE ARE PARTLY TALKING TO OUR CAUCUS ABOUT HOW THOSE NEGOTIATIONS ARE GOING AND HOW OUR POSITIONS ARE LOOKING, AND WE'RE ALSO JUST FOCUSING ON BUILDING THAT TEAM. COS YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER ` WE ARE BRINGING NEW PEOPLE INTO PARLIAMENT. WE WANT THEM TO WORK ASSIDUOUSLY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO TRUSTED ACT WITH THEIR PARTY VOTE AND FOR ALL OF NEW ZEALAND, SO WE'VE GOT TO SOMETIMES INVEST IN OUR TEAM AS WELL AS BRING THEM UP TO SPEED ON HOW THOSE NEGOTIATIONS ARE GOING. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT NO NEGOTIATIONS THIS WEEKEND AND THEN IT STARTS ALL AGAIN ON MONDAY? THERE WILL PROBABLY BE A BIT OF CONTACT BETWEEN THE PARTIES OVER THE WEEKEND. OK. IN TERMS OF SITTING DOWN AND FORMALLY DOING STUFF, I THINK THAT'S GOING TO START FROM MONDAY. DAVID SEYMOUR, ACT PARTY LEADER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ALL RIGHT, WELL, NATIONAL'S CAMPAIGN CHAIR AND MP FOR LOWER HUTT, CHRIS BISHOP, WAS LISTENING INTO THAT. HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WELLINGTON. KIA ORA, CHRIS. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SPECIAL RESULTS. ANYTHING SURPRISING THERE REALLY FOR NATIONAL? OR IS THAT WHAT YOU EXPECTED? LOOK, LARGELY WHAT WE EXPECTED. I SAID, I THINK, THE MORNING AFTER THE ELECTION, WE EXPECT TO LOSE ONE, MAYBE TWO, SEATS ON THE SPECIALS. HISTORICALLY, THE LAST THREE OR FOUR ELECTIONS, THAT'S BEEN WHAT'S HAPPENED. IT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED THIS TIME AS WELL. LITTLE BIT DISAPPOINTED, OBVIOUSLY, TO LOSE THE TWO ` I THOUGHT THERE MIGHT'VE BEEN A CHANCE THAT WE WOULD LOSE JUST THE ONE ` BUT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, ONE OR TWO ` IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE MAKEUP OF THE PARLIAMENT. I SORT OF THOUGHT WE MIGHT LOSE TWO, MAYBE THREE, OF THE REALLY CLOSE ELECTORATE RACES. AS IT TURNS OUT, WE'VE LOST TWO WITH VERY, VERY TIGHT MARGINS. WE WILL PROBABLY DO A RECOUNT IN NELSON AND POTENTIALLY MOUNT ALBERT. BUT, LOOK, FUNDAMENTALLY, IT IS LARGELY WHAT WE EXPECTED. ARE YOU`? SO, MOUNT ALBERT AND NELSON, AS YOU'VE INDICATED. ARE THERE ANY OTHERS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT? WHEN WILL WE KNOW THE NUMBER OF ELECTORATES THAT YOU ARE APPEALING? THE CANDIDATES HAVE GOT TILL 5 O'CLOCK ON WEDNESDAY TO FILE FOR A JUDICIAL RECOUNT. SO YOU WILL KNOW BY, I SUPPOSE, 5.01 ON WEDNESDAY. WE ARE CERTAINLY LOOKING AT MOUNT ALBERT AND NELSON. THE LABOUR PARTY HAVE INDICATED THE FOUR-VOTE MARGIN IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU. THEY WILL PROBABLY DO A RECOUNT THERE ` IF I WAS THEM, I WOULD; IT'S FOUR VOTES. WE ARE LOOKING PROBABLY AT THREE JUDICIAL RECOUNTS, AND THAT WILL DELAY THE RETURN OF THE WRIT, BUT IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT FORMATION PROCESS. IT'S JUST A BIT OF A DELAY TO WHO ACTUALLY ENDS UP GETTING BACK. SO THIS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. IT'S NOT GOING TO DELAY COALITION NEGOTIATIONS AND FORMATION OF THE GOVERNMENT, YOU WERE SAYING. NO, THE SHAPE OF THE PARLIAMENT IS NOW REALLY CLEAR. RIGHT? YOU'VE GOT NATIONAL WITH 48, ACT WITH 11, NEW ZEALAND FIRST WITH EIGHT. THE PUBLIC HAS SPOKEN, AND IT IS NOW JUST UP TO US ` THOSE THREE PARTIES ` TO GET TOGETHER AND FORM A GOVERNMENT, AND WE WILL DO THAT IN THE COMING DAYS. BEFORE WE TALK ACT AND WINSTON, THE GREENS PICKED UP ANOTHER SEAT. IT GIVES THEM 15. NO CHANCE OF ANY KIND OF CHANCE WITH THE GREENS SO YOU COULD CUT OUT ONE OF THOSE OTHERS? RULE THAT OUT? NO. NO, THE GREENS SPENT MOST OF THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN ATTACKING THE NATIONAL PARTY. IN FACT, THEY RULED THE NATIONAL PARTY OUT THEMSELVES ABOUT THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AGO. THERE'S NO CHANCE OF THAT HAPPENING. THEY DON'T GET TO LAMBAST US FOR MONTH AFTER MONTH, AND THEN TURN AROUND AND SAY, 'WE'RE INTERESTED IN A DEAL.' THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. TE PATI MAORI PRESIDENT JOHN TAMIHERE LAST NIGHT WAS SAYING THAT HE'S OPEN IF YOU WANT TO APPROACH HIM, AND HE COULD TAKE OFF THE ROUGH EDGES AND MOVE TO THE CENTRE. HAVE YOU BEEN IN TOUCH WITH JOHN TAMIHERE? NO, AGAIN, THE MAORI PARTY HAS SPENT THE LAST TWO YEARS ATTACKING THE NATIONAL PARTY LEFT, RIGHT AND CENTRE. THEY HAVE CALLED US EVERY NAME UNDER THE SUN. TO TURN AROUND THE DAY AFTER THE RESULTS ARE DECLARED, AND SAY, 'OH, WE'RE INTERESTED.' COME ON. I THINK PEOPLE SEE THAT FOR WHAT IT IS. WE'RE NOT DOING A DEAL WITH THE MAORI PARTY. THE VOTERS HAVE SENT A REALLY CLEAR MESSAGE ` THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT. THEY WANT NATIONAL TO BE THE BULK OF THAT GOVERNMENT. THEY WANT ACT AS PART OF THE MIX, AND THEY ALSO WANT MR PETERS AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST AS PART OF THE MIX. WE'VE JUST GOT TO USE THOSE NUMBERS AND GET ON WITH IT. SO ON THIS NEGOTIATIONS, YESTERDAY, DID CHRISTOPHER LUXON PICK UP THE PHONE TO WINSTON OR DAVID FIRST? OH, I'VE GOT NO IDEA. I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THAT. I KNOW HE TALKED TO BOTH MR PETERS AND MR SEYMOUR YESTERDAY AFTERNOON. I DON'T KNOW WHO HE CALLED FIRST. FRANKLY, IT'S NOT ACTUALLY THAT RELEVANT. THE POINT IS BOTH MR SEYMOUR AND MR PETERS ARE GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN THE GOVERNMENT IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. HOW THAT WORKS OUT ` WE'VE GOT TO SPEND THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND A BIT OF TIME FIGURING IT OUT, AND IN DUE COURSE, WE WILL LET YOU KNOW. (CHUCKLES) WE LOOK FORWARD TO THAT. WHAT ABOUT YOUR PART IN THE NEGOTIATIONS? ARE YOU ACTIVELY INVOLVED THIS WEEKEND? DAVID SEYMOUR HAS JUST SAID IT IS TIME TO REGROUP FOR ACT. THINGS ARE GOING TO KICK OFF ON MONDAY. IF THAT IS TRUE, CAN YOU REALLY AFFORD THE DELAY? I'M SURE THERE WILL BE A BIT OF WORK OVER THE WEEKEND, AND I HEARD THE INTERVIEW WITH DAVID SEYMOUR, AND THERE WILL BE A BIT OF CONTACT BETWEEN THE PARTIES. I'M SURE THAT WILL HAPPEN. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN MEETINGS SINCE BASICALLY THE ELECTION DAY, OCTOBER 14. VARIOUS DIFFERENT MEETINGS AS PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS. IT IS NOT WORTH GETTING INTO THE BLOW BY BLOW OF WHO WAS THERE AND WHO'S DOING WHAT. SENIOR PEOPLE FROM PARTIES ARE TALKING AND MEETING. NOW WE HAVE GOT THE CLARITY AND FINALITY OF THE SPECIALS IN, AND THE SHAPE OF THE PARLIAMENT IS KNOWN. WE CAN MOVE OUR PACE TO FINALISE THINGS NOW. YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED FROM DAY ONE WITH THE NEGOTIATIONS. FINALLY, CHRIS ` DAVID SEYMOUR, WINSTON PETERS SAYING, 'WE CAN GET THIS DONE QUICKLY ` 'A MATTER OF DAYS, MAYBE THIS WEEK.' WHAT IS YOUR POSITION? I AM NOT GOING TO PUT A TIMEFRAME ON IT. THERE IS REALLY GOOD WILL AND FAITH FROM EVERYBODY. THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN, AND WE FEEL A VERY STRONG DUTY TO MAKE SURE WE FORM A STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT, AND I AM CONFIDENT WE CAN DO THAT. CHRIS BISHOP FROM THE NATIONAL PARTY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. WELL, IT'S BEEN A STUNNING ELECTION RESULT FOR TE PATI MAORI, TRIPLING THE SIZE OF ITS CAUCUS FROM TWO TO SIX SEATS. THEY WERE THE BIG SURPRISE, BIG WINNERS YESTERDAY. TWO LABOUR BIG GUNS WERE TOPPLED BY THE SPECIALS, AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY CLOSER THAN IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU. TAKUTAI TARSH KEMP HAS WON THE SEAT BY JUST FOUR VOTES, AND SHE JOINS ME NOW. TENA KOE. CONGRATULATIONS. KIA ORA. TENA KOE. WHAT A RIDE. CAN YOU BELIEVE YOU TIPPED OVER PEENI HENARE? WE ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE A BIG FEAT TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT. WE WERE TAKING ON AN INSTITUTION, A BRAND OF 120 YEARS, AND A MINISTER WHO HAS... ENTRENCHED WHAKAPAPA AMONGST OUR WHANAU. SO WE ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE A DIFFICULT JOB, BUT WE HAD BELIEF. HE HAS THE CREDENTIALS AND THE WHAKAPAPA AND THE HISTORY. AND YOU HAVE DONE IT. YOU HAVE ONLY JUST DONE IT. LET'S GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY. FOUR VOTES ` WHAT DO YOU THINK? LOOK, WE ONLY NEED ONE. IF WE THINK ABOUT THE WORLD CUP AND THE SPRINGBOKS. THAT'S TRUE. FOUR VOTES IS A LANDSLIDE. IN WORLD CUP TERMS, BUT NOT NECESSARILY IN A RECOUNT. BUT IT IS SHOWING THAT OUR WHANAU WANTS CHANGE, AND OUR COMMUNITY ARE SPEAKING AND OUR WHANAU GOT OUT THERE TO VOTE. I AM SURE THAT THERE WERE MANY MORE WHANAU THAT COULD HAVE VOTED, BUT THERE WERE ISSUES AT THE POLLING BOOTH, AND WE HAVE HEARD FROM OUR WHANAU. ARE YOU INDICATING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT? IF YOU GET THESE VOTES FLIPPED THE OTHER WAY, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A LEGAL CAMPAIGN OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? THAT WILL BE SOMETHING UP TO OUR PRESIDENT AND LEADERSHIP OF TE PATI MAORI` IS THAT UNDER ACTIVE CONSIDERATION? OF COURSE, WE COULD CONSIDER THAT. OK, WHY DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE MANAGED TO DO THIS? WHAT HAPPENED IN SOUTH AUCKLAND ESPECIALLY WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN MANUREWA CEO. WHAT HAPPENED THERE TO LIFT YOU UP LIKE THIS? I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF YEARS IN THE COMMUNITY, WORKING FRONT LINE, WORKING WITH OUR WHANAU, AND I SEE OUR PEOPLE RIGHT AT THE FOREFRONT, STRUGGLING IN POVERTY EVERY DAY. I AM IN THE COMMUNITY, I'M VERY PRESENT, AND OUR WHANAU HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR CHANGE. I SEE GRASSROOTS, AND THAT WAS OUR CAMPAIGN. WE KNEW OUR COMMUNITY WELL. WE KNEW TAMAKI MAKAURAU WELL. WE KNEW THE ISSUES OF OUR PEOPLE. WE ADDRESSED THEM. WE GOT OUT THERE, WORKED HARD, AND INVOLVED OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR VOLUNTEERS, OUR WHANAU OUT ON THE GROUND. TE PATI MAORI OVERALL GOING FROM ZERO SEATS IN 2017 TO SIX SEATS POSSIBLY IN 2023. WHAT IS THE FEELING IN THE CAUCUS? WE'RE VERY EXCITED. IT'S OVERWHELMING. BUT WE'RE EXTREMELY HUMBLED. I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE PEENI FOR ALL THE MAHI THAT HE HAS DONE, FOR OUR WHANAU, FOR TAMAKI MAKAURAU, FOR MAORI ACROSS THE MOTU. AND WE THANK HIM FOR ALL HIS MAHI. LABOUR HAS TOLD ME IT'S GOING TO DO A RECOUNT IN TAMAKI MAKAURAU. NO SURPRISES. IT COULD BE A SHORT-LIVED VICTORY FOR YOU IF IT GOES THE OTHER WAY. ARE YOU PREPARED FOR THAT? I ALWAYS WENT INTO THIS KNOWING WHAT THE CHALLENGES WERE. WE HAVE DONE THAT. I HAD A GREAT JOB BEFORE I CAME INTO POLITICS. AND I WILL CONTINUE TO BE IN MY ROLE, IN MY LEADERSHIP ROLE, IN MANUREWA, IF WE DON'T. IT HAS BEEN AN AMAZING RIDE, A GREAT CAMPAIGN, AND WHAT IT HAS SHOWN US IS THAT WE CAN DO IT. OUR PEOPLE'S VOTES MATTERED. WE SAY EVERY VOTE COUNTS, AND THEY REALLY DID. THAT'S RIGHT. THEY REALLY DID. YES, ABSOLUTELY. JOHN TAMIHERE WAS MAYBE BEING MISCHIEVOUS YESTERDAY. HE WAS SAYING, 'YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT SIX SEATS NOW. 'IF NATIONAL WANT TO REACH OUT TO US, THEY COULD.' IS HE SERIOUS? WE HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT TE PATI MAORI WOULD WORK WITH ANY PARTY WHO IS TIRITI-CENTRIC, AND IF THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE HAPPENING ` AND THAT IS UP TO OUR LEADERSHIP ` THEN THOSE DISCUSSIONS HAPPEN. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE NATIONAL PARTY AS TIRITI-CENTRIC? LOOK, WE CAN WORK WITH ANYBODY. WE MUST BE ABLE TO COME TOGETHER BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT OUR PEOPLE AND THE VOTERS ARE ASKING FOR ` TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, FOR PARTIES TO COME TOGETHER. WE ARE HERE TO DO THAT. WE'RE ABOUT ADVANCING OUR PEOPLE, SO WE WILL WORK WITH ANY PARTY WHO IS TIRITI-CENTRIC WHO WANTS TO ADVANCE MAORI. IT COULD BE A LONG WEEK. ANOTHER LONG WEEK. ANOTHER LONG WEEK! OK. YOU WILL PROBABLY KNOW BY THE END OF THE WEEK WHETHER WHAT THAT ONE VOTE COUNTS. TAKUTAI KEMP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN TODAY. TENA KOE. TENA KOE. A MURI I NGA WHAKATAIRANGA, COMING UP... IT'S OUR POLITICAL PANEL. BUT FIRST, MORE ON TE PATI MAORI'S SUCCESS, AND WHY DID THE SPECIALS TAKE SO LONG TO COUNT? WE BREAK IT ALL DOWN. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. THIS ELECTION HAS PRODUCED THE LARGEST PARLIAMENT UNDER MMP EVER. OVERHANGS, RECOUNTS, A RESURGENT TE PATI MAORI ` SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT. SO JOINING US NOW TO BREAK DOWN WHAT IT ALL MEANS IS POLITICAL SCIENTIST DR LARA GREAVES. TENA KOE, MORENA. LET'S START WITH TE PATI MAORI'S SUCCESS. SIX SEATS ` ZERO TWO ELECTIONS AGO. CAN YOU PUT THAT INTO CONTEXT? YEAH, AND IN AN INTERNATIONAL WORLD CONTEXT AS WELL, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TEACHING INDIGENOUS POLITICS, AND DEPENDING HOW YOU DEFINE SOME OF THOSE LATIN-AMERICAN PARTIES, WE DO HAVE ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL INDIGENOUS PARTIES IN THE WORLD WITH TE PATI MAORI. IT'S VERY INTERESTING. I'M SURE INDIGENOUS GROUPS AROUND THE WORLD WILL BE WATCHING TE PATI MAORI AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE HERE. THEY HAD A FIRST WAVE AS THE MAORI PARTY. I LIKE TO THINK OF THEM AS WAVES. SO VERSION ONE WAS THE MAORI PARTY, A BIT DIFFERENT, TO TE PATI MAORI NOW, WHICH IS NOW THEIR OFFICIAL NAME. I KEEP TRYING TO PREDICT THINGS BASED ON PAST DATA PAST HISTORY AND CASES AROUND THE WORLD, BUT IT IS TOO HARD WITH TE PATI MAORI, BECAUSE THEY'RE ON THIS UPWARDS TRAJECTORY. THE MOMENTUM IS INCREDIBLE, BUT IT IS IN THE ELECTORATES AND NOT THE PARTY VOTE. WHY DOES THAT HAPPEN WITH TE PATI MAORI? WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT ARE MAORI VOTERS STRATEGIC, AND DISCUSSION OF HAS MMP BEDDED IN; WE UNDERSTAND MMP MORE. THE ANSWER SEEMS TO BE YES. THERE IS A LEVEL OF STRATEGY, AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT TO TE PATI MAORI AS A FLAXROOTS MOVEMENT TO TELL PEOPLE ` THIS IS HOW WE'RE VOTING, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING, THIS IS WHERE WE'RE GOING. THE OTHER THING I WOULD HIGHLIGHT IS FROM THE AVAILABLE DATA WE CAN SEE IS THEY ARE QUITE RANGATAHI- NGATI APOPO, THE PEOPLE OF TOMORROW-TYPE MOVEMENT, IS WHAT RAWIRI WAITITI USED AT ONE POINT. SO PICKING UP ON THE NEXT GENERATION REALLY WELL. LET'S QUICKLY LOOK AT FOUR VOTES FOR TAKUTAI KEMP. IT COULD BE ANYONE'S. WILL THE RECOUNT HAPPEN QUICKLY? WE HAVEN'T HAD IT CONFIRMED COMPLETELY THAT PEENI HENARE WILL GO FOR THAT. IT TAKES A FEW DAYS TO DO A RECOUNT. I WOULD REFER PEOPLE BACK TO THE 2011 WAITAKERE JUDGMENT FROM JUDGE ADAMS, I THINK. THERE IS A GREAT DESCRIPTION ABOUT THE RECOUNT PROCESS. IT IS THEM GOING THROUGH EACH OF THE VOTES AND SEEING WHAT COUNTS AS A VOTE. SO DOES A LOVE HEART OVER A NAME COUNT AS A VOTE? DOES IT? I THINK IN THAT CASE IT DID. IT'S GETTING DOWN TO THAT KIND OF LEVEL. THAT'S SO IMPORTANT. TAKUTAI SAID ONE VOTE WOULD DO IT FOR HER, SO IT HAS TO GO TO THAT LEVEL. THE OTHER ELEMENT IS IF SOMEONE IS ON THE GENERAL ROLL OR THE MAORI ROLL. THERE ARE A FEW VARIABLES THERE. WE WILL SOON SEE WHAT HAPPENS THERE, BUT IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE WAITAKERE ELECTORATE IN 2011, OUT OF ABOUT 30,000 VOTES, IT WAS A COUPLE OF HUNDRED VOTES THAT COULD HAVE CHANGED, THAT THEY WERE DISCUSSING. SO FOUR VOTES IS DICEY FOR THEM. IN THE OVERALL PICTURE, THERE IS SOME GRUMBLING OVER THE TIME TAKEN TO COUNT THE SPECIAL VOTES. WHY DOES IT TAKE SO LONG, AND BECAUSE OF THAT GRUMBLING ` OR IS IT JUST PROCEDURAL ` THAT WE MIGHT GET A REVIEW? WHY IT HAS TAKEN SO LONG RECENTLY IS THE SPECIAL VOTES` THEY HAVE TO GO BACK TO GET COUNTED IN THEIR ELECTORATE AND THEN PROCESSED. THOSE ARE THE ONES WITH THE TWO ENVELOPES. THAT IS THAT EXTRA PROCESSING. THERE ARE THINGS AROUND HAVING TO RECOUNT ALL OF THE VOTES AS WELL. ACCOUNTING FOR MISSING BOOKLETS ` IT IS A HUGE PROCESS. THE REASON IT HAS TAKEN THREE WEEKS IS BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF SPECIAL VOTES HAS GROWN. THE TRADE-OFF IN MAKING VOTING EASIER HAS INCREASED THE NUMBER OF SPECIAL VOTES. PEOPLE CAN NOW ENROL AND VOTE ON VOTING DAY, OR UPDATE THEIR ADDRESS ON VOTING DAY. SO THEY'LL MAKE IT LONGER TO COUNT IT. IT IS MORE ADMIN. YOU THEN HAVE THE THING OF YOU COULD SPEED IT UP, BUT IT WOULD COST MORE MONEY. SO IT IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THAT BALANCE. WILL IT COME UNDER REVIEW? IS THAT A PROCEDURE THAT HAPPENS AFTER AN ELECTION? AFTER AN ELECTION, THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION WRITES A REPORT ON HOW IT DID. IT LOOKS AT WHERE IT PERFORMED OR DIDN'T, AND LOOKS AT SURVEY DATA ON SATISFACTION. THEN THEY REPORT THAT TO THE JUSTICE SELECT COMMITTEE. THEY THEN COME UP WITH A SELECTION OF RECOMMENDATIONS. ANOTHER LONG WEEK FOR SOME POLITICIANS, AND A LONG THREE WEEKS FOR THE ELECTORATE AS WELL. WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS THIS WEEK. LARA GREAVES, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. A MURI AKE NEI, COMING UP NEXT, OUR HEAVY-HITTING POLITICAL PANEL. PLUS, THE PILOT AND THE PRINCE ` IT'S BACKSTORY. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` NEWSHUB POLITICAL EDITOR JENNA LYNCH, AUT PROFESSOR DR ELLA HENRY, AND PR CONSULTANT WHO HAS ALSO WORKED FOR NATIONAL, MATTHEW HOOTON. TENA KOUTOU. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. WHAT A WEEK. YOU HAVE HAD A LITTLE TIME TO DIGEST THE RESULTS. WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU, JENNA? THE MAORI PARTY STOOD OUT TO ME. THEY TOOK SIX OF THE SEVEN MAORI SEATS, MAKING THAT MAJORITY FURTHER OUT OF REACH FOR NATIONAL AND ACT TO GO ALONE WITHOUT NEW ZEALAND FIRST. THEY WERE PROBABLY GOING TO HOOK THEM ON TO THERE FOR A BIT OF SECURITY EITHER WAY, BUT NOW THEY NEED HIM. MEGA NEWS OUT OF THE SPECIALS. THEY WERE EXCITING. THEY WERE. WERE YOU EXCITED BY THE SPECIALS, ELLA? I AM REALLY PLEASED TO SEE THAT MAORI HAVE SENT A MESSAGE TO THE LABOUR PARTY. THEY GAVE THE PARTY VOTE TO LABOUR, BUT OVERWHELMINGLY SELECTED WHAT ENDED UP BEING BOTH CANDIDATES IN SOME ELECTORATES, WHICH I THINK IS IMPORTANT. IT IS NOT OVER YET. WE HAVE A RECOUNT COMING, MATTHEW. TAMAKI MAKAURAU COULD BE PEENI HENARE GONE. KELVIN DAVIS SAID HE WOULD RESIGN IF HE LOST HIS SEAT. IT HAS BEEN A MESSAGE TO LABOUR ` IT MAY NOT BE OVER YET, THOUGH. THE MAORI PARTY WILL END UP WITH FIVE OR SIX SEATS, AND THEY WILL BE DELIGHTED EITHER WAY. I THINK JOHN TAMIHERE AND ALSO WINSTON PETERS OWE CHRISTOPHER LUXON A PEPSI MAX. I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD HAVE GOT THESE RESULTS WITHOUT HIM. LUXON RULING OUT DEALING WITH THE MAORI PARTY MADE IT SAFER FOR LEFT-WING VOTERS TO VOTE FOR THE MAORI PARTY, AND WOULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO SOME OF THESE CLOSE WINS. AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE WINSTON PETERS IN PARLIAMENT IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE MISMANAGEMENT OF THAT ISSUE BY CHRISTOPHER LUXON. WAS JOHN TAMIHERE BEING A BIT MISCHIEVOUS? IN SAYING, 'WE'RE HERE, WE'VE GOT SIX SEATS; 'WHY DON'T YOU COME AND TALK TO US?' CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS SAID THE VALUES OF THE NATIONAL PARTY AND THE MAORI PARTY ARE INCOMPATIBLE, WHICH IS A BIT ODD, BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH RADICAL ` HOPEFULLY THE NATIONAL PARTY IS STILL RADICAL ` DEVOLUTIONISTS. LUXON SEEMS TO THINK THAT THE VALUES OF NATIONAL AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST ARE SOMEHOW COMPATIBLE. THAT WOULD NOT BE MY JUDGEMENT. I THINK THE NATIONAL PARTY ARE RADICAL CENTRISTS, AREN'T THEY? WELL, THEY ARE NOW. BUT IN THEORY, THEY SUPPORT DEVOLUTION. IT'S GRADATIONS OF RADICALISM. WE CAN ONLY DREAM OF THE 90S AGAIN. I DON'T KNOW IF EVERYONE WANTS TO DO THAT. GOING FORWARD IS COALITION TALKS. WINSTON SAYS THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON CALLED HIM AT 2.02 YESTERDAY. IS HE TRYING TO PUT HIMSELF FRONT AND CENTRE, AND, 'THEY'RE ALL COMING TO ME; I'M THE MAN.' BOTH DAVID SEYMOUR AND CHRIS BISHOP BATTING OFF THAT QUESTION ABOUT WHO WAS CALLED FIRST. REALISTICALLY, IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ANYONE OTHER THAN WINSTON PETERS, BECAUSE IT DOES MATTER TO HIM IF CHRISTOPHER LUXON CALLED HIM FIRST, BECAUSE IT IS A RESPECT THING. RESPECT MEANS A LOT TO HIM. HE WANTED THAT PUT OUT THERE, TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT PERHAPS HE WAS THE FIRST WANT TO GET A CALL. THERE IS A LOT OF POSTURING GOING ON WITH NOT MUCH BEING SAID ABOUT WHAT'S BEING TALKED ABOUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. WE HAD DAVID SEYMOUR TELL US THAT HE HAS BEEN DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET WINSTON ON THE PHONE. THERE HAVE BEEN LEAKS OF THE TWO DINNER PARTIES BETWEEN WINSTON PETERS AND CHRISTOPHER LUXON. MAYBE IT WAS CHRISTOPHER LUXON WHO LEAKED THAT, OR MAYBE IT WAS WINSTON PETERS. (LAUGHTER) WINSTON MUST BE REALLY ENJOYING THIS. IT HAS ALL COME BACK TO HIM. HE IS DECIDING WHO HE WILL TALK TO AND HOW HE WILL RELEASE, HE FEELS HE IS AGAIN IN CONTROL. HE'S PROVEN CONSISTENTLY THAT HE LIKES TO BE CENTRE STAGE. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT THREE YEARS OF WATCHING WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR IN CO-GOVERNANCE. (LAUGHTER) ONE OF THE THINGS TO LOOK OUT FOR HERE IS THE TIMING. THEY ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT HAVING A DEAL DONE WITHIN THE WEEK. I THINK THAT IS HIGHLY AMBITIOUS, WHEN YOU HAVE NEW ZEALAND FIRST THERE WITH A LOT MORE POWER, THAT SUDDENLY MEANS THAT ACT WILL BE A LOT LESS COMFORTABLE WITH THE DIRECTION THAT GOVERNMENT IS GOING. NEW ZEALAND FIRST AREN'T THE ONLY ONES WHO COULD STALL THESE NEGOTIATIONS. ACT ARE NOT GOING TO ROLL OVER LIKE THE GREENS DID TO NEW ZEALAND FIRST POLICY. I WONDER ABOUT THAT TIMEFRAME. IS IT POSITIONING ON THEIR BEHALF ` WINSTON AND DAVID SEYMOUR ` TO SAY THEY CAN HAVE IT DONE WITH A MATTER OF DAYS. DOES ANYONE BELIEVE THAT? NO, BUT I THINK THEY ARE BOTH PUTTING PRESSURE ON CHRISTOPHER LUXON, AND THEY WANT PEOPLE TO PERCEIVE THAT IF THERE IS ANY DELAY, IT IS THE NEWBIE CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S FAULT. THE THING THEY WILL HAVE FURIOUS ARGUMENTS OVER IS THE CENTREPIECE OF THE NATIONAL CAMPAIGN, WHICH WAS THE TAX-CUT POLICY. IT WAS A RIDICULOUS POLICY WRITTEN BY CASINO LOBBYISTS AND PROPERTY DEVELOPERS. IT DID NOT ADD UP. WINSTON PETERS IS ADAMANTLY OPPOSED TO FOREIGN BUYERS COMING IN AND BUYING UP HOMES, AND THE ACT PARTY, TO GIVE IT CREDIT, IT GENUINELY BELIEVES IN FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY, AND HAS OPPOSED NATIONAL'S RECKLESS, INFLATIONARY TAX-CUT POLICY. I THINK THAT IS DEAD. I DON'T THINK THEY'LL GET IT IN THE TIMEFRAME. IT WAS MEANT TO COME IN JULY 1; FOR THAT THEY'D NEED TO LEGISLATE ON THE FOREIGN BUYER THING AND THE CASINO THING. ISN'T IT MORE LIKELY THAT THEY STILL DO THE TAX CUTS AND THEY JUST HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM A DIFFERENT WAY? IF THEY WANT TO WIN THE NEXT ELECTION, THEY WOULD PREFER NOT TO DO THINGS WHICH WILL DRIVE UP INFLATION AND INTEREST RATES, BUT THE PROBLEM IS WHETHER OR NOT ENOUGH OF THEM IN THE NATIONAL PARTY CURRENTLY UNDERSTAND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNMENT SPENDING, INTEREST RATES, INFLATION` THE BUREAUCRACY HAD A ROUGH TIME OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS. SURELY THEY UNDERSTAND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. FOR SIX YEARS THE BUREAUCRACY GOT PRACTICE AT DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT AGGREGATE DEMAND WAS, AND THEY WILL FIND THEY HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH NEW MINISTERS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME OTHER POTENTIAL STUMBLING BLOCKS. THE ACT PARTY IS STILL KEEN ON ITS REFERENDUM FOR THE TREATY. PREVIOUSLY, LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION, DAVID SEYMOUR WAS SAYING IT WAS ONE OF HIS BOTTOM LINES. IT WAS INTERESTING LISTENING TO HIM TODAY, TALKING ABOUT HOW 'PRECIOUS' THE TREATY WAS. THAT WAS CONSCIENTIZING. THAT WAS NOT QUITE THE LANGUAGE HE'S USED IN RECENT WEEKS IN TERMS OF PROBLEMS OF THE TREATY. CLEARLY THERE HAS BEEN SOME MOVEMENT PUBLICLY IN HIS THINKING, AND THERE HAS HAD TO BE MOVEMENT PRIVATELY. YOU THINK THERE IS SOMETHING GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES? I THINK LIKE TAX CUTS, IT IS PROBABLY DEAD IN THE WATER. BUT IT WAS A NICE PIECE OF INFLAMMATORY POLICY DURING THE ELECTION. IT IS ONE OF THE ONLY POLICIES THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON COMMENTED ON, WHICH IS THAT HE RULED OUT A REFERENDUM ON THE TREATY. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER ACT WILL ROLL OVER ON OTHER STUFF AROUND THE TREATY THAT EASILY. THEY HAVE EVOLVED THAT POLICY FROM WHEN IT WAS FIRST ANNOUNCED, AND HAVE TRIED TO BRING IT IN LINE WITH THE TEXT OF THE TREATY. INTERESTING THAT THEY CHOOSE 'TE TIRITI' FOR ARTICLES 1 AND 3, BUT 'THE TREATY' FOR ARTICLE 2. THE ACT PROPOSAL WOULD IMPLY THAT THEY DON'T THINK THE CROWN IS SOVEREIGN IN NEW ZEALAND, WHICH WOULD BE A PRETTY BIG STEP FOR CENTRE-RIGHT TO` THAT IS WHAT CLAUSE 1 SAYS. YES, BUT THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT NATIONAL AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST WOULD SIGN UP TO. ACT SEEM TO BE SAYING THE CROWN IS NOT SOVEREIGN. ONE LAST QUESTION BEFORE WE GO` HAS WHAT THE RESULTS OF THE SPECIALS HAVE DELIVERED ` WILL THAT COMPROMISE THIS 100-DAY PLAN OF NATIONAL? THEY WANT TO SCRAP THE EV DISCOUNT BY CHRISTMAS AND REPEAL THIS AND THAT. SOME OF THE REPEALS THEY WILL GET THE OTHER GUYS ON BOARD WITH EASILY. REPEALING IS MUCH EASIER THAN DEVELOPING YOUR OWN POLICY. THEY COULD DO SOME OF THAT BEFORE CHRISTMAS. CHRISTOPHER LUXON WANTS TO BRING EVERYONE BACK ON JANUARY 2nd BY THE SOUNDS OF THINGS. YEAH. COULD DO SOME OF IT. THERE ARE COMMONALITIES ACROSS ALL OF THEIR POLICIES, LIKE LESS GOVERNMENT, LOOKING AT TAX REFORM AND OTHER ISSUES THAT THEY HAVE MOVEMENT TO MAKE OVER THE NEXT SHORT WHILE FOR THEIR CONSTITUENCIES THAT I THINK WILL LOOK QUITE POSITIVE. THAT TAX PLAN AND MINI BUDGET WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE BY CHRISTMAS. NICOLA WILLIS STAKED HER JOB AS FINANCE MINISTER ON DELIVERING THOSE TAX CUTS. OH, LOOK` YOU ARE STUCK IN THE REALITY-BASED COMMUNITY. SURELY SINCE JOHN KEY AND JACINDA ARDERN WE HAVE LEARNED THAT WHAT PEOPLE SAY DOESN'T NEED TO MEAN ANYTHING. IT DOES TO ME. ONE LAST THING. WILL WE HAVE A COALITION AGREEMENT ANNOUNCED BEFORE APEC? I DON'T KNOW. I'VE GOT TRAVEL PLANS TO GO, BUT I'M NOT GOING IF CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S NOT GOING. LET ME KNOW. OK. CHRIS, LET JENNA KNOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME ON THE PANEL THIS MORNING. E WHAI AKE NEI, COMING UP ` WE MEET THE PILOT MP WHO WORKED FOR A PRINCE. BUT FIRST, USING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SAFELY... CAN IT BE DONE? WAIHAPE MAI. WELCOME BACK. THE FIRST EVER INTERNATIONAL SAFETY SUMMIT ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE HAS JUST FINISHED IN THE UK. 29 COUNTRIES PLEDGED TO COOPERATE ON HOW IT SHOULD BE DEVELOPED AND USED RESPONSIBLY. BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE A CARETAKER GOVERNMENT, NEW ZEALAND WASN'T ONE OF THEM. HOWEVER, RESEARCHERS FROM A LOCAL THINK TANK HAVE DEVELOPED A SAFETY FRAMEWORK THEY BELIEVE ANY NEW AI SHOULD BE MEASURED AGAINST. DIGITAL EDITOR FINN HOGAN ASKED ONE OF THEM WHY KIWIS SHOULD CARE. I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST YEAR WITH GENERATIVE AI IS THAT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE THAT IT'S CAPABLE OF DOING, AND IT'S MUCH MORE FAR-REACHING AND MUCH MORE INVASIVE. SO FOR PEOPLE AT HOME, IT MEANS THAT EVEN EVERYDAY THINGS LIKE SOME OF THE SCAMS THAT THEY SEE ARE GOING TO JUST GET MUCH MORE BELIEVABLE AND VERY HARD FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON TO DISCERN WHETHER IT'S TRULY A SCAM. SO IT'S THESE SORT OF THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO IMPACT ON OUR DAY-TO-DAY LIFE. IF YOU LOOK AT INFORMATION, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON AT HOME TO BE ABLE TO DISSEMINATE BETWEEN DISINFORMATION AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH. AND WE SEE SOME OF THIS PLAY OUT WITH OUR ELECTIONS HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, BUT ALSO GLOBALLY AT THE MOMENT WITH A RANGE OF POLITICAL ISSUES. SO IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY FIGURE OUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY REAL AND WHAT ISN'T. LET'S BRING IT BACK TO THE EVERYDAY LEVEL FOR A NEW ZEALANDER AGAIN. LET'S TALK JOBS. A RECENT PEW STUDY FOUND THAT UP TO A FIFTH OF ALL JOBS IN THE U.S. WERE AT HIGH RISK OF AUTOMATION. A SEPARATE STUDY FOUND 80% OF JOBS COULD BE AT LEAST SOMEWHAT AUTOMATED. THAT COULD RADICALLY TRANSFORM OUR ECONOMY. ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY. IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS FOR GENERATIVE AI OR AI, IS I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE WE'VE GOT IS, WHAT JOBS ARE GOING TO BE DISPLACED? AND WITH ANY TECHNOLOGY, AS WE'VE SEEN IN MANY YEARS, OVER MANY DECADES, IS THAT THERE IS NATURALLY A DISPLACEMENT OF SOME SECTORS AND SOME JOBS AND SOME ROLES. AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE NOW, THOUGH, IS THAT THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AT A SCALE THAT HAS BEEN UNPRECEDENTED BEFORE AND IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. SO IF YOU` AND I THINK FOR PEOPLE AT HOME, IT'S UNDERSTANDING WHAT PART OF YOUR ROLE CAN THE AI ACTUALLY DO. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS SO YOU CAN DETERMINE WHETHER YOU'RE ACTUALLY OK WITH THIS OR NOT, AND WHETHER, YOU KNOW... WHAT IS THE TRANSITION PLAN FOR YOURSELF, FOR YOUR WHANAU, FOR YOUR COMMUNITIES, IF YOU HAVE TO MOVE TO A DIFFERENT AREA ALTOGETHER. BUT THAT SOUNDS LIKE A PRETTY SCARY PROPOSITION. YOU'RE SAYING AN UNPRECEDENTED CHANGE IN A VERY SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME. SO JUST MAKE THAT REAL FOR PEOPLE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF JOBS LOST, WHAT, WITHIN FIVE YEARS? THAT'S A REAL POSSIBILITY. I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS GOING TO BE IS HOW DO WE MANAGE THE TRANSITION? RIGHT? IT'S NOT NECESSARY THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON IS GOING TO LOSE THEIR JOB OVERNIGHT. BUT IT MAY JUST MEAN FOR SOME PEOPLE, THERE ARE MORE TOOLS AND MORE PRODUCTIVITY TOOLS AVAILABLE THAT MAKES THEIR JOBS EASIER TO DO. SO YOU MAY` 10% OF YOUR JOBS MAY CHANGE, WHILE IN SOME OTHER AREAS, WE MIGHT SEE A MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT CHANGE. WELL, THAT'S SCARY ENOUGH. THOUSANDS OF JOBS LOST IN A SHORT SPACE OF TIME. BUT OTHER PEOPLE ARGUE THERE'S MORE TO WORRY ABOUT, THAT GENERATIVE AI AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE POSES AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO HUMANITY. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT? SO I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT SORT OF A LOT OF THE NARRATIVE AND A LOT OF THE CONVERSATION THAT'S OUT THERE, IT'S VERY BINARY, RIGHT? IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, OR ACTUALLY, THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE, AND LIFE IS GOING TO BE BEAUTIFUL AND NORMAL AND PERFECT. I THINK THE REALITY IS GOING TO BE SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN. AND IT'S GOING TO DEPEND ON INDIVIDUAL SCENARIOS. AND PROBABLY DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES ARE GOING TO EXPERIENCE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF RISK THAN OTHERS. SO IT'S HOW DO WE NAVIGATE THIS? JUST TO PUT A FINER POINT ON THAT EXISTENTIAL QUESTION, THOUGH, A SURVEY OF AI RESEARCHERS LAST YEAR ASKED WHAT CHANCE THEY GAVE THAT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LITERALLY ENDED HUMAN CIVILISATION, AND THEY SAID THE AVERAGE CHANCE WAS 10% THAT HAPPENED. THAT SEEMS LIKE AN UNACCEPTABLE LEVEL OF RISK. SO, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE. BUT I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO NOT FORGET HERE IS AI IS NOT HAPPENING TO US. WE ARE STILL PART OF THIS, AND HUMANS HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY HERE. AND I THINK A LOT OF THE CONVERSATIONS NOW, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE U.S. IS GOING AND CHINA, THE EU AND UK SUMMIT AT THE MOMENT, IT'S LOOKING AT WHAT ARE THOSE` WHAT ARE THE ROLES THAT WE NEED TO PLAY NOW? WHAT ARE THE INTERVENTIONS? WHAT ARE THE MEASURES WE CAN PUT IN PLACE SO THAT THOSE THREATS DON'T BECOME A REALITY. AND I THINK` BUT JUST TO BE CLEAR, DO YOU THINK THAT IS A POSSIBILITY? IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING, THERE IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO HUMANITY? I THINK THERE IS CERTAINLY SOME EXISTENTIAL THREATS THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS. WELL, YOU TOUCHED ON INTERNATIONAL REGULATION THERE. THE U.S. IS MOVING, THE EU IS MOVING. WE HAVE YET TO PUT IN ANY REGULATION. WHAT SHOULD OUR GOVERNMENT BE DOING TO PREPARE FOR THE THREAT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE? YOU KNOW, TALKING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND AND GLOBALLY AS WELL IS I THINK THIS IS A REALLY DIFFICULT SPACE TO NAVIGATE BECAUSE YOU'RE TRADING OFF THE ECONOMIC AND, YOU KNOW, AND TRADE AND OPPORTUNITIES WITH SOME OF THE RISKS AROUND THE SOCIAL IMPLICATIONS, THE THINGS THAT WE` WHAT'S A TANGIBLE THING WE COULD DO QUICKLY? FOR EXAMPLE, SHOULD WE HAVE A MINISTER FOR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT? SO, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK, YOU KNOW, IS HAVING A CROSS-SECTOR GOVERNMENT HAVING ENGAGEMENT ACROSS A WIDE RANGE OF COMMUNITIES AND REPRESENTATION FROM THE VARIOUS PARTIES THAT ARE GOING TO BE AFFECTED BY THIS. IT'S A SIGNIFICANT STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE HERE AND WITH OTHER EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES SUCH AS SYNTHETIC BIO, QUANTUM AND THE LIKE, IS IT IS MOVING RAPIDLY, AND WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHATEVER REGULATION WE PUT IN PLACE HAS TO BE AGILE, HAS TO BE ADAPTIVE, AND HAS TO KEEP UP WITH WHERE THIS TECHNOLOGY IS GOING. AND THAT IS NOT SOMETHING WE'RE FACING ALONE. WELL, JUST ON EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, YOU'VE DEVELOPED YOUR OWN FRAMEWORK FOR ANALYSING EMERGING TECHNOLOGY. VERY SIMPLY, HOW DOES IT WORK? SO THE DRIVER BEHIND THE FRAMEWORK WAS BECAUSE WE REALISED THERE'S A GAP BETWEEN THE PRINCIPLES WHICH WE'VE TALKED ABOUT AND THEIR APPLICATIONS, WHICH IS THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORKS AND SOME OF THE POLICY IMPLEMENTATIONS. SO THE IDEA AROUND THE FRAMEWORK IS TO BRIDGE THAT GAP. AND IT'S WIDE-RANGING, FROM THE SOCIAL IMPACTS, LOOKING AT THE IMPACT ON SOCIETY, LOOKING AT THE IMPACTS ON INDIVIDUAL, WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF AI OR GENERATIVE AI ON THE FUTURE OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES? IT'S ALL OF THOSE DIMENSIONS THAT NEED TO BE CONSIDERED. A FINAL QUESTION HERE. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT A LOT OF SCARY STUFF ALREADY. LET'S END ON A POSITIVE NOTE. WHAT MOST EXCITES YOU ABOUT THE POTENTIAL USES OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE? WELL, I THINK THERE'S A LOT THAT EXCITES ME. I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY IS GOING AND FROM WHERE IT'S BEEN IS THERE IS A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES IN TERMS OF HOW IT COULD GENUINELY HELP PEOPLE. IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE` IF WE TAKE AI AND APPLY IT TO THE HEALTH CARE SECTOR, IS WE HAVE A STRUGGLING HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT IN NEW ZEALAND, BUT ALSO GLOBALLY. WHAT AI COULD DO IN THE HEALTH CARE SECTOR IS PROVIDE BESPOKE SOLUTIONS, AND IT COULD SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE HOW HEALTH CARE IS DELIVERED TO THE PEOPLE THAT NEED IT THE MOST. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EDUCATION SECTOR, THERE'S A LOT OF KIDS THAT ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH THE WAY IN WHICH EDUCATION IS DELIVERED. YOU'D BE ABLE TO PROVIDE BESPOKE EDUCATION SERVICES TO KIDS. IT MEANS THAT WE HAVE IMPROVED LITERACY. WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRING OUR KIDS ALONG ON THIS JOURNEY AND SO THAT NO ONE'S LEFT BEHIND, AND SO THAT WE CAN ENSURE THAT OUR CHILDREN ARE ADEQUATELY PREPARED FOR THIS NEXT WAVE OF TECHNOLOGY THAT IS COMING. SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF POSITIVE IN TERMS OF THE SOCIAL GOOD THAT IT CAN DO. I THINK THE CHALLENGE WE'VE GOT IS FIGURING OUT HOW DO WE BALANCE AND ENSURE THAT WE LEVERAGE ALL OF THE GOOD THAT COULD COME FROM IT AND MITIGATE THE NEGATIVE. IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING, WHAT'S THE NIGHTMARE SCENARIO? I THINK THE NIGHTMARE SCENARIO IS THAT WE A) DON'T HAVE ANY COHESION ON THIS, AND WE HAVE A BREAKDOWN IN THE WAY OUR SOCIETY OPERATES, AND WE HAVE` DISINFORMATION IS EVERYWHERE, AND NO ONE REALLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATOU. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, THE SEGMENT WHERE WE GET TO KNOW WHAT BROUGHT OUR MPs TO A LIFE IN POLITICS. THIS WEEK, WE MEET A FORMER HELICOPTER PILOT WHO ALSO WAS ONCE THE PERSONAL ASSISTANT TO PRINCE WILLIAM. THIS IS NEW NATIONAL MP TIM COSTLEY'S BACKSTORY. SO I GREW UP IN PALMERSTON NORTH. MUM AND DAD WERE BOTH SCHOOL TEACHERS; MUM WAS HOME WITH THE KIDS; IT'S THE 1980S; IT'S MEAT AND THREE VEG. DAD TAUGHT AT THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL, WHICH WAS GREAT UNTIL I WAS ALSO AT THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL. AND THEN MUM WORKED THERE PART TIME AS WELL. I'M THE MIDDLE CHILD, SO LIFE WAS HARDEST FOR ME. I GOT THE WORST OF EVERYTHING ` OR IN MY VERSION OF HISTORY I DID. I GUESS MY EARLIEST MEMORY IS GOING TO THE OHAKEA AIRSHOW WITH DAD, AND HE TOOK US OUT THERE WHEN I WAS LIKE 7 OR 8. AND I REMEMBER HIM SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT HIS DAD ` MY GRANDPA ` DID DURING THE WAR. HE WAS ON A BOMBER CREW. AND I REMEMBER LOOKING UP THERE AT THE PILOTS, GOING, 'THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO. I WANT TO` I WANT TO DO THAT ONE DAY.' I'D LOVE TO HEAR SOME OF HIS STORIES FROM THE WAR AND WHAT THEY GOT UP TO, BECAUSE YOU GET THIS` THE SANITISED VERSION. BUT, LIKE, THE PHOTO I'VE GOT OF HIM STANDING OUTSIDE A PUB WITH HIS MATES AND A COUPLE OF YOUNG WAITRESSES AND THEY'VE GOT A PINT` I'M LIKE, 'YES, THAT'S THE KIND OF` 'I WANT TO HEAR THOSE STORIES FROM THE WAR.' SO I JUST LOVE THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT THE CONNECTION` THAT'S HIM BACK IN THE DAY. HE LOOKS WAY COOLER THAN I DO. BUT I WAS JUST ALWAYS GOING TO BE AN AIR FORCE PILOT, AND I NEVER GAVE UP ON THAT. I APPLIED FOR THE AIR FORCE, AND I GOT THROUGH THE TESTING AND THEN THE INTERVIEW, AND YOU GO UP TO AUCKLAND FOR THE FINAL SELECTION, AND I GET TO THE END AND THEY SAID, 'NO, YOUR LEADERSHIP IS TOO TASK-ORIENTATED.' AND I THINK WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS` 'YOU NEED TO GO AND GROW UP.' AND IF I LOOK BACK AT ME AS A 17-YEAR-OLD, I WOULD SAY, 'YEAH, YOU NEED TO GO AND GROW UP.' SO I WENT TO UNIVERSITY, GOT THREE YEARS OF LIFE EXPERIENCE AND JUST GROWN UP, AND APPLIED AGAIN. AND, YEAH, FROM THERE, MUCH, MUCH BETTER. SOMETIMES THINGS TAKE ME TWO GOES IN THREE YEARS, BUT IT WORKS OUT. (PLAYS PIANO) YOU JUST FEEL TOM CRUISE GETTING CLOSER, CAN'T YOU? I ALWAYS ENJOYED MUSIC, AND I WAS ALWAYS RELATIVELY GOOD AT IT, AND NEVER` NEVER THE BEST, BUT ALWAYS PRETTY SOLID. AND I COULD PLAY DIFFERENT INSTRUMENTS, AND I CAN SORT OF` TAUGHT MYSELF GUITAR AND, YOU KNOW, AND PLAYED IN THE BAND. BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED IT. YOU KIND OF WANT GOOSE TO COME IN AND, YOU KNOW... # YOU SHAKE MY NERVES AND YOU... # AND WE ARE INTO IT. I REMEMBER` SO FLYING DOWN TO BLENHEIM TO START TRAINING ON DAY ONE, AND HAD TO FLY THROUGH WELLINGTON, AND TAKING OFF OUT OF WELLINGTON THE AEROPLANE ROLLS TO THE LEFT. I'M SITTING ON THE LEFT BY THE WINDOW AND I WAS LIKE, 'OH.' AND I WAS LIKE, 'OH CRAP, I CAN'T FEEL LIKE THAT. 'I'M JOINING THE AIR FORCE TO BE A PILOT, 'AND HERE I AM WORRIED ABOUT A BASIC LITTLE TURN.' AND A MONTH LATER, YOU GET PUT IN THE COCKPIT FOR THE FIRST TIME AND YOU GO FLYING AND UPSIDE DOWN. AND IT WAS JUST` YEAH, IT WAS AMAZING. # I'M A PILOT, YEAH A PILOT, YEAH. # WE WERE IN AUSTRALIA SITTING AROUND THE BAR AT NIGHT, AND I JUST HAD A GUITAR, AND I WAS JUST SINGING, MAKING UP STUPID SONGS ABOUT ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON AT THE TIME. SO IT ENDS UP ON THE INTERNET, AND IT JUST WENT VIRAL. YOU KNOW` (LAUGHS) DID I THINK IT THROUGH AT THE TIME THAT THIS WOULD BE WHAT MY KIDS GROW UP SEEING? MAYBE NOT, BUT I FIGURED IT'S BETTER TO HAVE ALL YOUR SKELETONS ON YOUTUBE THAN IN THE CLOSET. I ENDED UP IN AFGHANISTAN WORKING FOR OUR SPECIAL FORCES OVER THERE, WHICH WAS AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY. I WASN'T FLYING THERE. I WAS ON THE GROUND. I WAS THE FIRST KIWI SENT OVERSEAS IN RESPONSE TO THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE. MY PHOTO ALBUMS ARE FILLED WITH PHOTOS OF HELICOPTERS AND PLANES. BUT ACTUALLY ALL THE STORIES ARE REALLY ABOUT THE PEOPLE. AND THE ONE THING I KNOW THAT I WILL MISS THE MOST AND THAT I WILL TREASURE THE MOST FROM MY AIR FORCE TIME IS THE PEOPLE. AFGHANISTAN WAS PROBABLY THE ONE TIME I ACTUALLY WAS A LITTLE BIT EMOTIONAL. I REMEMBER LUCY, OUR OLDEST GIRL, WAS 6 MONTHS OLD AT THE TIME. I JUST REMEMBER SITTING THERE ` EMMA HAD GONE TO BED ` AND LUCY'S ASLEEP, LIKE, TWO NIGHTS BEFORE I LEFT, AND JUST WRITING THEM A LETTER JUST IN CASE, YOU KNOW, THIS MIGHT BE THE ONLY THING SHE'LL EVER HAVE TO REMEMBER ME BY. AND THAT KIND OF GETS YOU A BIT, RIGHT, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT. AND ONE OF THE GUYS THAT I WAS WITH DID` (EXHALES) TEARFULLY: SORRY. YEAH, IT WAS WHEN I'D BEEN IN AFGHANISTAN A WEEK, THAT... THAT WE GOT THE MESSAGE THAT A FRIEND HAD BEEN KILLED BACK HOME IN A PLANE CRASH IN 2010. IT WAS WELL PUBLICISED AT THE TIME. A GUY CALLED NICK, WHO I HAD SPENT A LOT OF MY CAREER WITH. I'D SORT OF FOLLOWED HIM THROUGH. JUST ALWAYS A COUPLE OF STEPS BEHIND. HE WAS` WHEN I GOT TO HELICOPTERS, HIS NEW CO-PILOT; HE WAS A NEW CAPTAIN. WHEN I DID MY FLYING INSTRUCTOR COURSE, HE WAS THE ONE TEACHING US HOW TO BE FLYING INSTRUCTORS. AND IT WAS ON THAT COURSE THAT WE WERE BOTH HAVING OUR FIRST KIDS AT THE SAME TIME. IT WAS AFTER NICK'S DEATH THAT I FOUNDED THE MISSING WINGMAN TRUST, WHICH IS THE CHARITY THAT LOOKS AFTER AIR FORCE FAMILIES WHEN SOMEONE'S KILLED, INJURED, WOUNDED OR ILL. BECAUSE I REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, SITTING BY MYSELF OVER IN A COALITION BASE IN AFGHANISTAN THINKING, YOU KNOW, THERE'LL BE ALL THIS SUPPORT AROUND THEM RIGHT NOW, BUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN 18 YEARS? AND SO I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WAS THERE; THAT THERE WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT COULD HELP OUT ` AND WILL NEVER TAKE THE PLACE OF NICK, BUT COULD MAYBE JUST FILL A LITTLE BIT OF THAT GAP. MY WHOLE LIFE IS RUN BY WOMEN, RIGHT? MY WIFE, MY THREE KIDS, MY MUM. I'VE GOT NO CHANCE. BUT THEY ARE AWESOME. AND THEY'RE ALL SO DIFFERENT. YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT ONE THAT'S JUST INTO EVERYTHING. GIVE EVERY SPORT A GO. ONE IS SO` HER LEVEL OF EMPATHY AND COMPASSION. AND ONE THAT'S JUST FULL OF JOY. WILL FIND THE FUN IN ANY SITUATION. SO BETWEEN THE THREE OF THEM, I JUST LEARN SO MUCH. BYE. HAVE A GOOD DAY. BYE. MY VERSION OF THE STORY IS I PLAYED IT REALLY COOL, AND I MIGHT HAVE MENTIONED I WORKED AT OHAKEA. DEFINITELY DIDN'T SAY I WAS A PILOT. HER VERSION IS 'HI, I'M A PILOT'. AND WE JUST KEPT IN TOUCH, BUT JUST CLICKED. I MEAN, LITERALLY, THE REST IS HISTORY. SHE IS JUST AMAZING. I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS. SHE WOULD HATE ME TALKING ABOUT HER, BUT PHENOMENAL. SHE'S THE ONE THAT HOLDS IT ALL TOGETHER. WE ARE A LOUD FAMILY. DINNERTIME IS LOUD. I'M LUCKY, LIVING A BIT CLOSER, THAT MAYBE THERE WILL BE THE ODD MORNING WHERE I'M AT HOME AND CAN SEND THE KIDS OFF TO SCHOOL, BUT I'M ALSO REALISTIC ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THEY'LL BE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN. DOES THE HAT STILL FIT? YEAH. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A SQUEEZE, BUT IT'S NOT REALLY` IT'S NOT SOMETHING I WEAR EVERY DAY JUST WALKING AROUND THE HOUSE. 'HOW DO YOU END UP WORKING FOR PRINCE WILLIAM?' I HAVE NO IDEA. A VAGUE EMAIL GOT SENT OUT TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE. I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY SELECTED THAT GROUP, AND SAID, 'THERE'S A JOB NEXT YEAR FOR A LITTLE BIT. 'IT MIGHT INVOLVE A VISIT OR SOMETHING. IS ANYONE INTERESTED?' AND I WENT, 'YEAH.' AND THEN I GET A CALL ON CHRISTMAS EVE SAYING 'ON JANUARY Xth, BE IN QUEENSTOWN.' THIS IS WHAT PRINCE WILLIAM AND PRINCESS CATHERINE AND EVEN BABY GEORGE GAVE ME AT THE END OF MY TIME WORKING FOR THEM. SIGNED PHOTO OF THE THREE OF THEM. I REMEMBER GETTING TO CAMBRIDGE AND WE DRIVE INTO THE MIDDLE OF TOWN, AND THE CROWD IS JUST GOING CRAZY; IT'S JUST LOUD. AND AS THEY GO TO OPEN THE DOOR, WHEN THEY GET THE ALL CLEAR, THE WHOLE CROWD, THIS HUSH JUST COMES OVER THE CROWD. I REMEMBER ONE COOL STORY. WE WERE LEAVING THE WIGRAM AIR FORCE MUSEUM. WE'D BEEN DOWN THERE, AND THEY WOULD BREAK OFF FROM GOING TO THE VEHICLES, AND THEY'D GO ALONG THE CROWD, BECAUSE PEOPLE TURN UP WITH FLOWERS. BUT INEVITABLY, THE SECURITY DRAGGED THEM BACK. 'NO, COME ON, YOU MUST JUMP IN THE CAR.' AND I SAW THIS ONE LITTLE GIRL THAT HAD BEEN MISSED AT THE END OF THE LINE, STANDING THERE WITH HER FLOWERS. AND I JUST RUSHED OVER AND I KNELT DOWN NEXT TO HER AND I SAID, 'WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GIVE THOSE FLOWERS TO THE PRINCESS?' WHISPERS: 'OH, YES, PLEASE.' AND THEN ON THE PLANE ON THE WAY BACK TO GOVERNMENT HOUSE, I COULD GIVE THEM TO THE PRINCESS. 'HEY, THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL 'THAT WOULD JUST LOVE YOU TO HAVE THESE FLOWERS.' YOU KNOW, AND THAT'S KIND OF BEEN THE STORY OF MY LIFE, WHETHER IT'S BEEN THAT OR THE CHARITY OR NOW, AS, I HOPE, AS AN MP. AND I CAN'T MAKE A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE. I CAN'T CHANGE THE WORLD; I CAN'T FIX EVERYTHING. BUT THERE'S ALWAYS ONE LITTLE PERSON THAT YOU CAN HELP. AND IF I CAN DO THAT` IF I CAN METAPHORICALLY TAKE SOME FLOWERS TO A PRINCESS FOR A LITTLE GIRL, THAT WOULD BE AMAZING. THAT'S ALL FROM US. NOW ALL WE NEED IS A GOVERNMENT. I GUESS WE'LL COME BACK NEXT WEEK. WE'LL SEE YOU THEN. NGA MIHI NUI. TENA TATOU KATOA. CAPTIONS BY KATE MCCULLOUGH AND SAM BAKER. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023