- Korihi e aku manu topatopa ki runga ki te rangi. Takiri mai ana te ata ki runga i te toi huarewa o nga ariki. Ka tiariaria ka tuarehu Matarua i te angaanga. Kapua tairangi ka oti atu. Haramai, te toki. Haumi e, hui e, taiki e! This week on The Hui ` Ngai Tahu are managing their own whitebait season in Canterbury and restoring this customary right for their people. - So we start earlier than the recreational and we finish later than the recreational. - But it's not without its challenges. - There's been a lot of hate from certain parts of the community. - And with the special votes in, we're back talking politics with our panel of experts. (PUORO WHITAWHITA) Nga mate tuatinitini o te wa, haere mai, haere. Tatou e whakaurupa mai nei i a ratou ma ki te hinengaro, Tihewa mauri ora and welcome back to The Hui. Whitebait may be a delicacy, but it's also a taonga species for the South Island iwi of Kai Tahu. However, overfishing and habitat loss is a threat to whitebaiting. A customary season for Canterbury hapu Kai Tuahuriri is now underway, which is getting whanau back on the water, although not without some ripple effects. Mea nei te purongo o Meriana Johnsen. - MERIANA JOHNSEN: The Waimakariri River in Te Wai Pounamu. Keen whitebaiters get in early to secure the best spots. The closer you are to the river mouth, the better. - The guys at the front, they get the first lift so they get the big lifts and hopefully they leave some for us. - For these die-hard whitebaiters, this is what it's all about. - Gotta have those big lifts, you know? It's all about them. - The thrill of the catch draws out hundreds every year. However, the tide is turning. - Everyone with dollars in their eyes. People are out there to make money, and it really impacts on being able to get on the awa and just catch a simple feed. We get pushed out of spots. We can't fish. We're competing against syndicates that are rotating around the clock. So for me, growing up as a young child, some of my first memories right here on this awa with my father, learning how to whitebait, we would come and live seasonally. We would spend months here. What came from that was the learning of the harvesting and the respect for those species, but also their relationships they have within our natural environment. - These waterways are the lifeblood of the Kai Tuahuriri people. Rakahuri, Kaiapoi and the mighty Waimakariri. - Ki uta ki tai ` from the mountains to the ocean. - But they haven't always been able to enjoy this bounty. Maori used kupenga, or nets, woven from harakeke to catch whitebait. In the mid-1800s, colonial settlers introduced trout, which were given special protections and kupenga were banned. - Our whanau were being prosecuted for catching trout in their nets. We were being blocked from access to these rivers, our main ancestral harvesting areas. And even myself growing up as a teenager, at times I'd have the police come up and move me off the river because there was no understanding of customary rights. - Kai Tahu's 150-year battle to have rights recognised was finally settled in 1997. Now, backed by DOC, they're managing their own whitebait season. - So we start earlier than the recreational and we finish later than the recreational. And that gives us that time to carry on our customs of being who we are, and our place to pass on to our future generations. - But they've had some backlash. - There's been a lot of hate from certain parts of the community. Straight out racist, you know, horrible threats. There is a really large element of the community that don't know New Zealand's history. They've only had the propaganda that they've been taught over the 170 years, and they don't truly know how Maori and mana whenua have been impacted. All they see is what they call us having the 'privilege', but it's actually us just accessing our rights. - Makarini decides who can get a permit for the customary season. - So those whanaus that still hold ahi ka, they're the whanaus will have access to a permit. - Upstream on the smaller rivers, and tucked away off side roads are the quieter fishing spots. - You should be able to see them coming because they kind of dance on the surface of the water. - Pauline Crofts and son Joseph Hullen first started coming to Three Streams over 50 years ago. - Used to be the best watercress over there too, before they put the subdivision in. - Pauline, who's in her 80s, is back out on the water for the first time in decades. She got a customary permit. So you don't whitebait during the recreation season? - Oh, no, because it's too hard to get on the river. - For our whanau, there's one permit. Mum's the permit holder. The permit entitles us to one net, and so it's limited. It's not a wholesale right for us to come down and just empty out as much as we can. - Overfishing is one of the reasons four out of six whitebait species are threatened. There's also loss of wetlands where the whitebait spawn. The hapu, alongside the council, are focused on restoring these wetlands ` with a little help from Mother Nature. - With the earthquakes back in 2011, it dropped the land and the land was originally wetlands. So what came back are really great spawning habitat for a lot of our species, and we are seeing that as a plus for our inaka. - Joseph is also involved in wetland restoration. - We've got a 200-year vision to restore it to a fully-functioning indigenous ecosystem, complete with native species, whether they be birds or aquatic. - That includes the Rakahuri Estuary, a significant place for mahika kai. Today, it's also a classroom for these year seven and eight students from here Tuahiwi School. There's no whitebait running, so instead, a bit of history. - About five years ago, this bank was out there where that shingle was and that's how much the floods and that have taken away from us. - Ivan Rupene comes up here for the whitebait season. He keeps an eye on things. - They've been here two days in a row now. - Right. - That means there must be a bit of bait there. - OK, that's a good sign. - It is. - Not everyone on the river is respectful. - The most annoying that we're having is these bloody idiots, rich little buggers and their flash four wheel drives coming down there on the other side. The wildlife, they're killing them. - Aw. He's hoping these tamariki walk away with respect for this mahika kai. (PUORO MAKOHA) Further south, Makarini's cousin, Te Marino is sharing some of his catch. - It looks like about a pound there, cuz. - Nice, nice. Oh, nice, look at that. (KAI SIZZLES) - How often do you guys eat whitebait during the season? - Funny enough, this season I've had maybe two feeds because I just make sure everyone else is fed. - Yeah. - 70, 80% of my catch goes to other people. Yep. - Yep. - Yeah, I feel lucky to be able to do it. Have people like Maka, my cousin here, to teach me and uncles and that and for it to still be here. This is about us living the life our ancestors wanted us to live, and we haven't had the freedom to do that. It's really important for us to recognise that no rights exist without responsibilities, that it's not just about coming and taking ` it's coming and taking to give. - All right, ready? Taste test. No white bread. We don't need it. - It's not too hot, is it? - No, it's perfect. That is so good. - Ta matou noho ki konei he ngawari ki te whatoro atu ki nga kai hei oranga mo te tinana, a te whanau te wairua. - E kia nei te whakatauki o Kai Tahu, mo tatou, a, mo ka uri a muri ake nei. - E mihi ana ki te iwi ra. Kia tau nga hua o Te Potihanga whai muri ake i te whakatairanga nei. After the break, we have a political panel of experts and their reaction to the final vote count from election 2023. Professor Ella Henry, Guyon Espiner and Lara Greaves join us after this. In our house, it's not Christmas without reindeer pancakes for breakfast. Those look really... Good? Good. Yeah! Dad always tries to guess what he's getting. Bacon has to be in everything. And we always have Nana's mince pies. Apparently you use fruit mince but we use beef. It's kind of weird. VOICEOVER: However you do Christmas, we've got you sorted at New World. (PUORO WHITAWHITA) - Hoki mai ano, e hoa ma. Welcome back. Ko Te Hui tenei e wetewete ana i nga korero nui, whai muri i Te Potitanga. We have our revered and respected rank of reputable political respondents here with us now. She is the professor of international business strategy and entrepreneurship at AUT University, Ahorangi Ella Henry, tena koe. - Kia ora. He is an investigative journalist at RNZ and a political commentator extraordinaire on the reputable and sublime RNZ political podcast, The Caucus, Guyon Espiner. KA KATA: Tena koe, e hoa. - Tena koe. - Nau mai. And she is the associate professor at the School of History, Philosophy, Political Science and International Relations at Victoria University, Te Herenga Waka. Dr Lara Greaves, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Tena koutou katoa. - Kia ora. - Welcome. OK, wow. Maori Party ` special votes. What the heck happened there, Professor? - Well, we talked before the election about the inclination in the past for a more left-leaning vote, and I guess that came through. But I think for the Maori Party, what it also showed is that Maori were being very strategic. They were voting for the candidate of their choice, but they were still giving their Party vote to Labour. So I think that was a strong message to the Labour Party. 'We're still with you, but you need to do some work.' - And you saw that in Tai Tokerau ` three candidates. Huhana Lyndon on the list in the Greens, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, obviously, for the Maori Party as a candidate and now the MP, and of course Kelvin Davis got in on the list of Labour. - And some absolutely extraordinary talent who over time, I think are going to mature into really important leaders of the future politically. So I think Maori won many things. - I have to give you your dues. You said that the Maori Party would get 5% and I laughed and then they got six out of seven seats. - She's the correct` Out of all of us, I'm like, 'Oh, yes.' - (KA KATA) So I just wanted to give you your dues. Guyon Espiner, as much as a dream for the Maori Party the result was, this is a nightmare for Chris Luxon, isn't it? Because he now has to deal with Winston Peters? - Oh, it is. This is the nightmare scenario. This is the one ` Remember, I mean, it seems a long time ago that they were warning about, 'You could have another election' because` and this is the scenario that has been delivered to him where he can't move without New Zealand First and Act. And so it becomes very, very difficult for him. And you can already see with Winston Peters and David Seymour sort of playing a game of chicken in the middle of the road and seeing who'll blink or who will respond to a text message. Winston obviously thought David's were fake. It's not a great start, to be honest, for Christopher Luxon. I think he's really gonna have his work cut out managing these two. - How bad could this get, do you think? - Pretty bad. - Really? - Yeah, I do. Because also you saw in that '17 to '20 period, where Winston had Labour over a barrel in terms of numbers, that every now and again, three strikes is a good example, where Andrew Little was gonna pull it through and knock three strikes off the statutes. Suddenly, Winston Peters and New Zealand First decided, nah, it's not gonna happen. So he can sit there and sniper's alley and pick off policies. He can still do that because they need his eight votes to actually govern. And I think that's gonna make it very difficult for Christopher Luxon, in my view. - The opportunity is there, isn't there, Dr Lara Greaves, for a really strong left-leaning coalition in opposition here. You know, the Maori Party with six members, the Green Party with I think four Maori members on the list and of course Labour with all its Maori members. I mean, there is the opportunity here, if Winston and ACT really push to do something against Maori policy here for a really strong opposition to organise themselves, coordinate well before the next election. - Yeah, and I mean, one of the moments in the election for me, thinking of sort of the key moments was when Debbie Ngawera-Packer and Marama Davidson high-fived one another in that Powerbrokers' Debate because it is showing that they're kind of quite similar in policy there on the left. So there is an opportunity now for there to be cooperation and for there to be opposition. I think we've kind of learnt through MMP and through recent, say, like, the Labour leadership struggles post-Helen Clark and, of course, the struggles for National, we've kind of seen that parties can tear themselves to pieces and we've seen that time and time again, like, there's clear evidence base for that so I mean, for Labour's sake, I hope that they figure out what to do around the leadership and have a peaceful transition of power, or whatever it is, because I think it's` the model for being opposition is evolving over time and it's a bit clearer now. - You've gone exactly where I was gonna go to in the next break, but that's OK. We can do it now. I mean, is Christopher Hipkins the guy that Labour needs as an opposition leader, given it seems like what people wanted was more left-leaning policy, and you've got a guy who raced to the centre in the election campaign? - Yeah, I think it's a hard one because when there was the leadership contest, if you think back to ` what was it? I don't even know, it's all happened so quickly ` when Ardern resigned is that when we were thinking names off the top of our head, actually, a lot of those people like Kiri Allan and Michael Wood, the next generation of leader, are gone. CHUCKLES: Like, they're not really` They're not there. So you can't` it's hard to think of where Labour will go next and whether it is a case of Hipkins staying in as a safe pair of hands, he's committed to the Party and just sitting there and being the leader and trying to be effective opposition versus them trying to roll the dice with someone more inexperienced, and then there's that possibility they would then have that instability, that leaking, the caucus attacking one another and all that kind of drama. - Yeah. The special voters could also count against someone like Peeni Henare who I think sees himself and others see him as a leader, potential leader for the Labour Party. Does he, by the way, go for a recount? Only four votes, or should he leave it as is, given... - I think they would be mad if they didn't because it's a procedural opportunity to them. I don't think it would change much, but at the end of the day, we've got two very strong candidates in different parties in Parliament, and if the Labour Party is able to spend the next couple of years being introspective and going back to its flax roots about what it represents and who it represents, I think it will come out of this process much, much stronger. - Can I ask a question about who do you think` (CLEARS THROAT) Let's talk about the Maori seats here. I mean, Willie Jackson was a Maori electorate campaign manager, right? Kelvin Davis, a deputy leader of the Party. You could argue that they had a really poor performance given they've lost. They've only won one seat, which is the one they had the least time to campaign for. - I think it's balancing poor performance, on the one hand, with extraordinary performance on the other. Let's be very clear. I believe the Maori Party galvanised the rangatahi vote. I mean, we'll have to wait a while to see. But if you look at the voting patterns, which I want to in more depth, as you will, around those parts of West Auckland, South Auckland, the Maori-strong, where there is a high level of rangatahi, I guarantee you we're going to find very high representation and that's what we want for the future. We want engaged rangatahi who care politically because by the next election they're going to still be there in the mix. - I wanna talk about policy in the next break, but Guyon, I just wondered, how is this talk between Luxon, Seymour and Peters, how is this gonna work? - (CHUCKLES) I think` - I mean, Luxon and Seymour and Peters can't stand each other. - No, they can't. And I think, again, Seymour has been` I think he overplayed his hand in the campaign. And I think some of the things that he said about Winston Peters, he'll be regretting. I mean, Peters is a revenge guy. He has a long memory. And, you know, I think that might be some of the reason that David Seymour is not getting his calls or his text messages being answered right now. - They talk about wanting to be in the same room with each other and, you know, and talk to each other and try and negotiate something. I mean, how long is this gonna take? - Well, they wanna get cracking pretty soon. So I think most of that depends on how Winston Peters plays his hand, I really do. I think David Seymour's ready to get cracking and obviously National and ACT are pretty close and had a good working relationship. They wanted to be, you know, in the marriage on their own. Now there's a third person in the marriage and it just really depends how Winston Peters plays his hand. One of the big things that I'll be really fascinated to see is whether ACT gets this referendum question on the Treaty through. I think it could it could poison and contaminate Luxon's whole term and already you've got politicians with real mana like James Shaw and Willie Jackson saying it could be a very violent and toxic brew. I don't think Luxon wants that. So for me, that'll be one of the key things that I'm looking out for, to see whether or not he will allow that through from ACT, who have taken that as a bottom line. - And JT signalled that as well the day after the election, actually, on our coverage. We'll come to that after the break. Some more to talk about ` we'll talk about the referendum and whether or not that will happen after this ` stay with us. We have more from our political panel of experts on The Hui after the break. (PUORO WHITAWHITA) (PUORO WHITAWHITA) - Oh! Kia ora mai, ano. We're back, we're bad. Mea nei te tapui torangapu o taumata okiokinga o te Hui. We have Professor Ella Henry, Mr Guyon Espiner and Dr Lara Greaves with us. We were talking about the referendum before the break from Guyon. Is the referendum gonna happen, do you think, Dr Greaves? - It's hard to see it happening, but I think because, like, I've been teaching indigenous politics and I've been looking at all these different referenda that have been happening around the world, like the Australian Voice to Parliament one, and really been reflecting on like, what a horrible experience it would actually be for everyone. And like when I grew up, honestly, the foreshore and seabed and the Orewa speech were actually quite formative in my political years as a teenager observing that, and I think about what would happen if rangatahi Maori, the ones that Dr Henry was saying, like that` are kind of becoming politicised and getting into voting, what that would do to everyone. And I think about that demographic shift that's happening that, like Maori are a young population, one-in-three children and 2040 born in this country will be Maori. And just the impact that that would have on them politically and have on their then-view of National and thinking that that would be National's fault. In the New Zealand election study, we see around the Don Brash Orewa speech, you know, Maori viewing National this way and then... dip. Like, honestly. And they've been rebuilding back in that time but it's, still, it was the Orewa speech in that, that disunity and hate. - And then there's the point about what is the question gonna be? I mean you just can't say, 'Treaty, yes or no?' - (KA KATA) - Well, you could. You could. (KATAKATA) It would be provocative. I mean, what I see out of that whole scenario is a return to the protests of 2004, 2005, you know, and how it was galvanised. And you're quite right ` there will be a new generation of empowered activists coming out of that kind of thing, and it's going to be very, very ugly moving into the next election cycle. So I don't know that Luxon would want that on his plate. - I don't think Luxon wants it at all. And in fact he's been very clear, hasn't he, before the election that he didn't want it. I mean, you might, if you were National, be able to nudge ACT in the direction of, 'Well, maybe you should initiate a citizens-initiated referendum or some other mechanism', and ACT can run around the country campaigning on that, even for 2026. I think Luxon will be doing everything in his power to make sure that this doesn't happen, because it could suck up all the oxygen. He wants to be talking about the economy, law and order. He doesn't wanna be faced with this, which would be a real spill-over toxic brew in my view. - We also know that Winston isn't necessarily a fan of tax cuts. I mean, will we still see tax cuts in some way, shape or form? - I think that we will, is my view. - Yeah. - OK. - I think that Luxon will get Nicola Willis as Finance Minister and the bulk of his economic program through ` there may be some modifications to the tax cuts, but I think he's campaigned too hard on it. - Absolutely. - Didn't he basically say he would resign if he didn't have cut` - And Nicola Willis. - And Nicola Willis, yeah, yeah. - I just don't think that the smaller parties will be able to deny him. - The dilemma is how they're going to afford it, and which parts, which arms of government are going to be sacrificed to pay for that, because that's where I think we're going to have the most negative impact for our Maori, our disadvantaged and most poor and vulnerable. - And a cut to bureaucracy ` decentralisation. - Well, which bureaucracy? That's the trick. - Well, I think he's talking about calling them all in for at least a five or 6% haircut, isn't he? And ACT wants a lot more than that. So yeah, at a time of rising, unemployment ` it's still low, but it's ticking up ` that isn't gonna be welcomed either. - And what about also, you know, there was talk of a raise in superannuation entitlements, raise in age. Is that going to happen? I think with Winston in there` - I think that's` I feel like anything to do with superannuation, anything to do with that, that foreign home buyers coming in with the $2 million to raise money for the tax cuts, anything around those kind of key pillars of sort of Winston Peters, I guess him as a word cloud and him as, like, sort of policies over the last, 30, 40 years, you know, it's like you think you think anything immigration, foreign homebuyers and anything superannuation and like grey power. You know, the other one, of course that's interesting in that is anything provincial growth fund and like regional development because that's another thing they seem to vibe with. - Yeah. - Yeah. I think raising the age of eligibility for Super as ACT and National wanted to do is gone. - Gone. - Winston Peters won't allow that. My own view is that he would allow the foreign buyers tax mechanism in. I can't see him dying in the ditch over that. He will not allow the super entitlement age of eligibility to rise in my view. - Can I, Professor, ask a question about Ikaroa-Rawhiti? - Mm. - What happened there? I mean, would the Maori Party have been better off to keep Heather Te Au-Ski` I know I'm going back, sorry, but` - No, no, no. - But Heather Te Au-Skipworth, to keep her as the candidate, because if they had, she would have won, wouldn't she? - I mean... (STAMMERS) if we look at each of these electorates as own discrete entity, which to a large extent they are, there are different whakapapa politics at play in all of them. And I think that that is something that they'll have to go away and have a think about, you know, because whakapapa politics is very, very powerful. It's very potent in te ao Maori. And we can see that happened in a number of other places as well. - So the reason I ask this is, and I think this has been mentioned by the person actually, who ran the Labour Party campaign in the Maori electorates, about a strategic partnership or something, an agreement being done with the Maori Party by the Labour Party, which basically says, 'All right, you fullas have the electorates, we'll get your Party vote, and that will strengthen 'our collective hand and position before the next election.' I mean, could that happen? - I think it'd be a masterstroke. It would be a politically adroit. I'm not sure. - But then you just get the overhang removed, in terms of electoral politics, because that's` then people would be outraged the moment anyone thinks that Maori are doing anything like... like, pretty much the moment Maori are doing, like, literally just fulfilling basic rights in the system, everyone thinks Maori are playing the system, right? So then they're gonna say, 'Oh, Maori are getting special rights and privileges with the overhang,' and then they'll get rid of it. That's what they would do. - I thought it was fascinating that Willie Jackson did say that, but I think Labour would be trying to bank on getting them back when the tide comes back in, because, look, we are talking` I mean, it's an extraordinary result, right, what the Maori Party did this time, but let's remember that Who had all the Maori seats in 1996? a party called New Zealand First. And where did they all go in '99? All back to Labour. Then they lost them when the Maori Party and Tariana Turia came in in the mid-part of that decade. So Maori will chuck you out if you're not seen to be delivering. So I think, my own view, is that if the tide comes back in for Labour in a term or two, they may well get those seats back. I mean, I think the strategic partnership stuff is an interesting idea; I can't see Labour going for it. - But with the Greens, like, maybe, Te Pati Maori and the Greens should get together. Because if you look at Te Tai Tokerau and Tamaki Makaurau, the two kind of closer ones, in the end they had Green candidates running and getting two, 3000 votes. So maybe that's time for the Greens. They've never run a full suite of candidates in the Maori seats. - Both their candidates in Tamaki Makaurau and Tai Tokerau made it on the list as well. That's right. E mihi ana, kia koutou. Tena koutou katoa. Herenga korero. No reira tena ki mihi a koe. Kia ora mai ra koutou katoa. That was, of course, Professor Ella Henry, Mr Guyon Espiner and Dr Lara Greaves. E haere ake i ta tatou hui ` Coming up next week on The Hui. (PUORO KAHA) Gangs of Aotearoa... Side-by-side, bitter rivals... - There's gangs like the Mongrel Mob in here, the Black Power, the Killer Beez, the Head Hunters, the Bloods, the Crips. - ...once divided, now doing it together. More than 200 gang members, most just out of jail, healing the body, mind and spirit. (ROPU CALLS) - We may be the only organisation that has a number of different colours under the one umbrella and there's harmony. (ROPU CHANTS) - Kua paenga a nga mahi a ta tatou hui ki konei tenei wa. You can watch all our stories on Facebook and YouTube platforms, as well as at Newshub.co.nz. Kia mau ki te turanga o Taputapuatea. Haumi e! Hui e! Taiki e! Na Kitty Wasasala nga kupu hauraro i hanga. Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa nga kupu hauraro i tautoko. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2023