CAPTIONS BY JAMES BROWN AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` NANAIA MAHUTA ON FOREIGN POLICY, LABOUR'S MISTAKES, AND WHY SHE NEVER JOINED TE PATI MAORI. I THINK, FUNDAMENTALLY, HAVING A POLITICAL PARTY BASED ON IDENTITY CAN BE A CHALLENGE SPACE. THEN ` WHAT HAPPENS TO CHATHAM ISLANDS LIFE WHEN THE LIFELINE TO THE MAINLAND GETS CUT? SO WE HAD TO DESTROY 400 CATTLE, WHICH YOU'VE SEEN EVIDENCE OF. AND THAT WASN'T A VERY NICE THING, BUT THEY WERE PUT DOWN BECAUSE THERE WAS NOWHERE ELSE TO SEND THEM. AND WE'RE IN PORT WAIKATO, AS ONE PARTY LOOKS TO PULL OFF A BY-ELECTION UPSET. DO YOU KNOW WHICH PARTY SHE'S FROM? NO. NATIONAL, ARE YOU? NEW ZEALAND FIRST. OH, BRILLIANT! GOOD GIRL. WE'LL HAVE THAT SHORTLY. BUT FIRST, IT PROBABLY HASN'T ESCAPED YOUR ATTENTION THAT SIX WEEKS SINCE POLLING DAY, AND 16 DAYS SINCE THE FINAL RESULTS WERE ANNOUNCED, WE STILL DON'T HAVE A GOVERNMENT. CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND WINSTON PETERS HELD IN-PERSON TALKS AT AN AUCKLAND HOTEL YESTERDAY, AND INSISTED THEY'RE CLOSE. WE HONESTLY ARE IN THE LAST STAGES. WE'RE JUST TRYING TO GET THAT LAST BIT OF UNDERSTANDING AND AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE PARTIES. I HONESTLY THINK THE MINISTERIAL APPOINTMENTS AND STUFF WILL BE FAIRLY QUICK, AS I SAID ` I DON'T THINK THAT'S A BIG TOPIC OF CONVERSATION. EVERYBODY HAS HIT THIS WITH THE RIGHT MENTALITY, WHICH IS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, ALIGN ON POLICY. WE'RE GOING AS FAST AS WE POSSIBLY CAN. (CHUCKLES) AND I KNOW EVERYBODY'S IMPATIENT, BUT WE'VE JUST GOTTA GET THIS FINISHED. IT'S WORTH NOTING IT TOOK 32 DAYS, FROM POLLING DAY, FOR THE LEADERS OF THE THREE NEGOTIATING PARTIES TO SIT IN A ROOM TOGETHER. 1 NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER BENEDICT COLLINS IS KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON DEVELOPMENTS. WHAT IS HAPPENING? I WAS STATIONED OUTSIDE THOSE HOTELS FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS THIS WEEK, AND IT IS NOT CLEAR HOW FAST THINGS ARE PROGRESSING. CHRISTOPHER LUXON WAS TELLING US THEY WERE IN THE FINAL STAGES. DAVID SEYMOUR SAID THEY WERE MAKING GREAT PROGRESS. ON SATURDAY THEY SAID THEY WERE IN THE LAST STAGES OF CUTTING A DEAL. THEY ARE MEETING AGAIN TODAY. DO WE KNOW WHAT THE STICKING POINTS ARE? WE KNEW GOING IN, THERE WOULD BE A COUPLE OF TRICKY THINGS. THE CALL FOR A REFERENDUM ON THE TREATY OF WAITANGI, WHICH CHRISTOPHER LUXON SAID WOULD BE DIVISIVE. CONCERN AROUND THE NATIONAL PARTY'S TAX PLAN, PARTICULARLY AROUND ALLOWING FOREIGN BUYERS TO BUY PROPERTIES. IT IS NOT CLEAR WHETHER THEY HAVE RESOLVED THESE THINGS, OR ARE FOCUSING ON OTHER THINGS. CHRISTOPHER LUXON INDICATED TO REPORTERS YESTERDAY THEY WERE LEAVING THE CABINET APPOINTMENTS TO THE LAST STAGE OF NEGOTIATIONS. IS THAT A SURPRISE? NO, I THINK THEY HAVE MADE THAT CLEAR THROUGHOUT NEGOTIATIONS. LOOKING BACK, IT WAS AN INTERESTING STRATEGY FROM CHRISTOPHER LUXON. AFTER THE ELECTION, HE WAS SAYING HE WOULD MAKE THIS A FAST DEAL. HE WAS CONFIDENT HE COULD DO THIS QUICKLY. HE WAS KEEN TO GET TO APEC ON THE WORLD STAGE. NONE OF THIS HAS HAPPENED. I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT CHRISTOPHER LUXON WOULD TRY TO PUT THIS TIMEFRAME ON THESE TALKS, WHEN CLEARLY IT IS NOT AN ACT OR NEW ZEALAND FIRST INTERESTS TO RUSH THESE DEALS. IT IS SOMETHING YOU CAN LOSE SIGHT OF. WHAT THEY AGREE TO HEAR HERE WILL AFFECT THE NEXT THREE YEARS. THESE PARTIES CAN'T POP UP IN A FEW WEEKS TIME AND SAY THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THIS WILL AFFECT EVERYTHING THEY CAN DO FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS. IT IS IMPORTANT THEY TAKE THEIR TIME AND GET AS MUCH AS THEY CAN, AND GET A GOOD DEAL, SO THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR THEM FEEL THEY GOT THEIR VOTE'S WORTH. YOU GET THE SENSE COLLECTIVE IMPATIENCE IS BUILDING. HOW IS PUBLIC PRESSURE AROUND THE TIME THE STEELERS TAKING THIS DEAL IS TAKING LIKELY TO AFFECT NEGOTIATIONS? I WAS AROUND THE COUNTRY EARLIER THIS WEEK, AND EVERYONE YOU TALK TO SAYS HOW ON EARTH CAN TAKE THIS LONG? ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE NATIONAL PARTY STRONG ELECTION NIGHT PERFORMANCE. NEW ZEALAND FIRST JUST GETTING OVER THE THRESHOLD. THIS IS MMP. THE BIG PARTIES HAVE TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE SMALLER ONES. A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC LOOK AT THIS, LIKE HOW ON EARTH CANNOT TAKE THIS LONG? ESPECIALLY GIVEN ACT HAVE BEEN WORKING ALL YEAR DISCUSSING HOW THEY MIGHT FORM THIS GOVERNMENT. LIKE I SAY, THE COLLECTIVE IMPATIENCE, WILL IT MEAN PARTIES MAKE GREATER CONCESSIONS THAN THEY MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE MADE? AND IF SO, WHICH PARTIES? THE BALL IS IN CHRISTOPHER LUXON'S COURT, GIVEN HE TALKED UP THE QUICK DEAL, WHETHER THEY HAVE TO COMPROMISE MORE. I UNDERSTAND FROM TALKING TO PEOPLE CONNECTED WITH THE TALKS, THE LEADERS ARE INSULATED AT THE MOMENT. THEY ARE FOCUSED ON THESE DEALS, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GETTING PUBLIC FEEDBACK THAT THE OBLIGOR IS GROWING IMPATIENT, I THE PUBLIC IS GROWING IMPATIENT, I THINK THEY KEPT FROM WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WIDER WORLD. IN A MONTH OR SO, IF THEY CAN SORT OF GOVERNMENT IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS, IN A MONTH OR SO WILL IT REALLY MATTER? NO, I GUESS FOR THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT, CHRISTOPHER LUXON HAS TALKED UP A BIG GAME ABOUT HOW MUCH SHE WANTS TO GET DONE BEFORE CHRISTMAS. IF THESE TALKS GO ON FOR ANOTHER FEW DAYS, WE COME INTO A RUSHED SCHEDULE IN PARLIAMENT, TRYING TO GET DIFFERENT INITIATIVES INTO LEGISLATION, PASSING THEM THROUGH PARLIAMENT. THAT IS WHERE IT WILL GET TRICKY FOR NATIONAL. THEY ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME BEFORE CHRISTMAS. THE CONVERSATIONS YESTERDAY WERE HELD IN AUCKLAND. WHAT ARE YOU EXPECTING ONCE THEY REACH A DEAL, IN TERMS OF PROCESS FOR FORMING THE NEXT GOVERNMENT? I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHETHER THEY HAVE FIGURED IT OUT THEMSELVES YET, BUT I SPEAK THEM TO STAY IN AUCKLAND. GIVEN THAT DAVID SEYMOUR AND CHRIS DEVELOPS AND DIDN'T MEET YESTERDAY, AND LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE SQUARED AWAY THAT SIDE. ONCE THEY ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT, THEY WILL COME BACK DOWN TO WELLINGTON ANNOUNCED THE FORMATION OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT DOWN HERE. GIVEN THIS IS THE CAPITAL AND PARLIAMENT, WE WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THEM DOWN HERE AND GET THINGS ROLLING IN PARLIAMENT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. GOOD LUCK FOR THE NEXT FEW DAYS OR WEEKS OR MONTHS. NANAIA MAHUTA HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR 27 YEARS. AFTER FIRST ENTERING AS A 26 YEAR OLD ON LABOUR'S LIST BACK IN 1996, SHE WENT ON TO HOLD THE TE TAI HAUAURU AND HAURAKI WAIKATO SEATS, BECOMING A SENIOR CABINET MEMBER ALONG THE WAY. BUT IN LAST MONTH'S ELECTION, AS TE PATI MAORI SWEPT SIX OF THE SEVEN MAORI SEATS, NANAIA MAHUTA MISSED OUT ON BEING RETURNED TO PARLIAMENT. THIS WEEK I TRAVELLED TO KING COUNTRY AND THE WHENUA OF NGATI MANIAPOTO. I SAT DOWN WITH NANAIA MAHUTA AT TE TOKANGA-NUI-A-NOHO WHARENUI. I BEGAN BY ASKING HOW SHE'S THINKING ABOUT THE ELECTION RESULT. WELL,... (SIGHS) DEMOCRACY AND THE VOTERS HAVE SPOKEN, SO YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THE OUTCOME EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T THE OUTCOME YOU HOPED FOR. FOR ME PERSONALLY, I GET A CHANCE TO GO HOME AFTER 27 YEARS OF SERVICE WHICH HAS BEEN AN ABSOLUTE PRIVILEGE, AND I AM DOING A LOT OF REFLECTION ABOUT... MY TIME IN PARLIAMENT, THE UPS AND THE DOWNS, BUT ALSO THE LAST ELECTION AND WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM IT. OK. I WANNA KNOW WHAT YOU CAN LEARN FROM IT FIRST OF ALL. WELL, I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA HAS PLAYED ITS PART IN QUITE A SIGNIFICANT WAY, IN VARIOUS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, AND THAT AMPLIFIES PRETTY MUCH THAT PEOPLE ARE CONSUMING THEIR INFORMATION FROM DIFFERENT PLACES, WHERE PREVIOUSLY IT USED TO BE THE NEWSPAPER. SO WE HAVE TO BE REALLY ALERT TO THAT. ALSO THAT IN THE MAORI ELECTORATES, A YOUNGER VOTE DID TURN OUT, SO WE HAVE TO BE ALERT TO THE FACT THAT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF MAORI IS YOUNG AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING. AND THEN POSSIBLY... IN A MORE POLITICAL SENSE, UH, WHAT PEOPLE STAND FOR AND WHAT THEY VALUE HAS TO BE VERY CLEAR AND VERY DIFFERENT, AND YOU CAN'T KIND OF HOMOGENISE VALUES; YOU HAVE TO ACCENTUATE WHERE YOU DIFFER. AND WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR IS HOPE AND VISION AND LEADERSHIP. SO I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS TAKEN TOGETHER GIVE US SOME SALIENT LEARNING POINTS. DO YOU THINK ` ON THAT FINAL POINT THERE ` THAT LABOUR PLAYED TO THE CENTRE TOO MUCH? I THINK SO, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CENTRE IS A VOTE THAT WILL GO WITH ITS INTERESTS, ITS PRIMARY INTERESTS, AT HEART, WHATEVER THAT LOOKS AND FEELS LIKE. BUT WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO IS DEFINITELY SPEAK TO OUR VALUES AND THE THINGS THAT WE STAND FOR, AND WE NEEDED TO ABSOLUTELY ASSURE OUR CORE VOTE THAT WE WERE CONTINUING WITH THE TYPE OF PROGRESS THAT WAS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THEM ` WORKING PEOPLE, BUT ALSO PEOPLE WHO HAVE ASPIRATION FOR THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY ` AND THEN OFFER A FUTURE, OFFER A VISION FOR WHERE WE WANTED TO TAKE THE COUNTRY. AND SO IN A POLICY SENSE, WHAT MIGHT THAT ALTERNATIVE HAVE BEEN? WELL, I THINK THERE WAS VERY MUCH A FOCUS ON BREAD-AND-BUTTER ISSUES, WHICH ALWAYS SPEAKS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE MAORI ELECTORATE, BUT PERHAPS DIDN'T ACCENTUATE IT IN A WAY THAT PEOPLE FELT THAT WE WERE HEARING HOW PEOPLE WERE HURTING. SO PERHAPS THERE'LL BE SOME REFLECTION ON THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE. BUT ALSO, GIVEN THAT TIMES ARE FORECAST TO GET A LOT MORE HARDER, THE ASPIRATION PART IS, THEREFORE, HOW ARE WE GOING TO ADDRESS THE BREAD-AND-BUTTER ISSUES BUT STILL SEEK OUT THE TYPES OF OPPORTUNITIES THAT WILL GUARANTEE PEOPLE JOBS, BETTER WAGES, NOT COMPROMISING THE ENVIRONMENT, AND ALSO BEING VERY PROGRESSIVE AND CONTINUING TO BE PROGRESSIVE AROUND OUR ASPIRATIONS FOR MAORI, FOR PASIFIKA AND FOR OUR DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. TAX? YEAH, TAX ` I THINK THAT HAS BEEN A POINT OF REFLECTION. GST OFF FOOD DIDN'T REALLY SPEAK TO THE VOTERS, AND THAT WAS SHOWN TO BE THE CASE. FUNDAMENTALLY, GOING DOWN A ROAD WHERE WE'RE GOING TO TACKLE SYSTEMIC CHALLENGES WITHIN OUR TAX SYSTEM MEANS WE DO HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD ON THE CAPITAL GAINS TAX. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT TE PATI MAORI THAT BROUGHT OUT SO MANY YOUNGER MAORI VOTERS? I THINK THE MESSAGE OF AOTEAROA HOU SPOKE TO A NEW GENERATION. WHAT THAT REPRESENTS IN REAL TERMS I THINK IS YET TO BE DETERMINED. BUT THE FACT THAT YOUNGER VOTERS GOT OUT` AND AS I SAID EARLIER, SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS DID HAVE AN INFLUENCING IMPACT ON CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS, AND THE YOUNG VOTER WAS AN AREA WHERE WE DID SEE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS PLAYING ITS PART. DO YOU THINK TE PATI MAORI HAVE THE EXPERIENCE AND STRATEGY AT THIS STAG TO BE ABLE TO WORK THE LEVERS OF POWER WITHIN PARLIAMENT? WELL, THEY'RE SITTING ON THE OPPOSITION BENCHES, SO THEY DON'T HAVE ANY ACCESS TO LEVERS OF POWERS EXCEPT BEING A PART OF A STRONG OPPOSITION. YOU BROUGHT UP SOCIAL MEDIA A COUPLE OF TIMES. OUTSIDE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH SOCIAL MEDIA WAS USED TO CONNECT WITH YOUNG MAORI VOTERS, WHAT DO YOU MEAN SPECIFICALLY BY THE OTHER INFLUENCES IT HAD IN THE ELECTION? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT OPPOSITION TO LABOUR? I THINK THAT WAS A CASE` I CERTAINLY DID EXPERIENCE A LOT OF PERSONAL OPPOSITION THROUGH VARIOUS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS. AND ALSO, PEOPLE WERE CONSUMING THEIR INFORMATION FROM, YOU KNOW, VERY DIVERSE CHANNELS, AND PERHAPS WE UNDERESTIMATED A SOURCE OF TRUTH THAT WOULD COUNTER SOME OF THAT MIS- OR DISINFORMATION, AND THAT'S SOMETHING TO BE ALERT TO GOING FORWARD. AND I THINK FOR ALL POLITICAL PARTIES AND EVEN POLITICAL COMMENTATORS AND THE MEDIA, WE HAVE TO TURN OUR MINDS TO GREATER INTEGRITY IN THE INFORMATION THAT PEOPLE CONSUME TO HELP THEM MAKE DECISIONS, ESPECIALLY DURING ELECTION TIME. LABOUR WAS HAMMERED BY CRITICS AND OPPOSITION PARTIES FOR POLICIES LIKE CO-GOVERNANCE AND THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, MANY MAORI VOTERS HAVE SUPPORTED A PARTY WHICH HAS AN EVEN STRONGER STANCE THAN LABOUR WHEN IT COMES TO A TIRITI-CENTRIC AOTEAROA. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE LABOUR'S MAORI CAUCUS? WELL, LABOUR'S MAORI CAUCUS IS IN A VERY STRONG POSITION. BECAUSE IT REPRESENTS MAORI INTERESTS ACROSS A BROAD PLATFORM OF ISSUES, WITH THE TREATY AT ITS HEART. BUT IF WE THINK ABOUT THE WORKING POPULATION AND THE NEED TO PROTECT WORKERS' RIGHTS, THEN THE LABOUR PARTY ARE STILL THAT PARTY, IN MY MIND. WE'RE ALSO REBUILDING OUR TEAM, SO WE'VE GOT NEW TALENT THERE; WE WANT TO GROW THAT TALENT, AND WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE FUTURE-FIT FOR THE FIGHT THAT WILL BE REQUIRED TO, AGAIN, SECURE THE CONFIDENCE OF VOTERS AND BECOME GOVERNMENT TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY FORWARD. DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE LABOUR MAORI CAUCUS MADE SACRIFICES OR COMPROMISES IN THE INTERESTS OF THE WIDER TEAM? WELL, WHEN YOU'RE IN POLITICS, EVERY POLITICIAN KNOWS THAT COMPROMISE AND SACRIFICE ACTUALLY GOES HAND IN HAND WITH POLITICS. SO WAS IT WORTH IT? AND I THINK THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT WILL LEARN THAT VERY QUICKLY TOO. (CHUCKLES) WAS IT WORTH IT, THEN? IF LABOUR'S MAORI CAUCUS HAD TO... MAKE COMPROMISES WITHIN THAT WIDER CAUCUS, AND YOU LOOK AT THE RESULT OF THIS ELECTION, WAS IT WORTH IT? WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE ACHIEVEMENTS, ABSOLUTELY, AND WE WOULDN'T RECOIL FROM THAT. WE HAVE A DEDICATED DAY TO RECOGNISE OUR FIRST MAORI PUBLIC HOLIDAY THAT ACKNOWLEDGES MATAURANGA MAORI, AND THAT'S MATARIKI; SUPPORTING MAORI WARDS, ESTABLISHING THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY AND FOCUSING ON EQUITY OF HEALTH OUTCOMES FOR MAORI, FOR PACIFIC, FOR REMOTE COMMUNITIES AND FOR YOU KNOW, AND ELDERLY. WE'VE DONE SO MUCH DURING OUR TIME IN GOVERNMENT ` SUPPORTED TE REO DEVELOPMENT, AND IT'S... YOU KNOW, IT'S BEGINNING TO THRIVE IN WAYS THAT ARE SHAPING THE FABRIC OF OUR NATION. THOSE ARE ALL POSITIVE GAINS, AND THERE ARE MANY MORE. YOU ENTERED PARLIAMENT IN 1996, SO YOU'VE BEEN BOTH THE BABY OF THE HOUSE AND THE MOTHER OF THE HOUSE. TAKE ME BACK TO 2004. CAN YOU TALK US THROUGH HOW YOU NAVIGATED THE DEBATE OVER THE FORESHORE AND SEABED ACT? WELL, IT WAS DIFFICULT, BECAUSE LABOUR WAS THE GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME, AND CHALLENGING DECISIONS WERE MADE BY OUR ATTORNEY-GENERAL WHICH, AS A MAORI MP IN THE GOVERNMENT, WE HAD TO DEFEND AND CONTEST WITHIN... WITHIN OUR OWN WHARE, IF YOU LIKE. SO IT WAS A REALLY DIFFICULT TIME. AND THEN YOU HAD THE KIND O THE PUBLIC BACKLASH AND THEN YOU HAD THE KIND OF THE PUBLIC BACKLASH AROUND IWI VS KIWI, THE DON BRASH SPEECH, AND THINGS WERE BEING INFLAMED RACIALLY AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. YOU ASKED ME HOW I NAVIGATED IT ` WITH SOME CHALLENGE. I FOUND IT DIFFICULT, BUT I ALSO KNEW THAT I HAD TO USE THE POLITICAL PROCESS AND MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS TO ANCHOR IN INTERESTS THAT WOULD, TO THE BEST EXTENT POSSIBLE, SUPPORT THE ASPIRATIONS OF MY ELECTORATE. WE STILL HAD OUTSTANDING CLAIMS FOR THE WAIKATO RIVER, FOR THE WEST COAST HARBOURS, AND THEN THERE WERE OTHER TREATY SETTLEMENT CLAIMS THAT HAD ELEMENTS OF WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY THE FORESHORE AND SEABED. SO I USED THE PROCESS, SECURED SOME GAINS, TOOK MYSELF OFF THE LIST, PUT THAT MANDATE BACK TO THE ELECTORATE AND SAID, 'LOOK, I THINK I'VE DONE THE BEST THAT I CAN, 'BUT IT'S UP TO YOU.' AND THEY PUT ME BACK IN TO KEEP DOING THE MAHI, AND I DID THAT. HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO JOINING TARIANA TURIA? NOT AT ALL. PEOPLE HAVE SINCE ASKED ME THE QUESTION TOO ` WOULD I EVER JOIN THE MAORI PARTY? AND THAT'S NOT REALLY BEEN SOMETHING THAT I'VE GIVEN THOUGHT TO. I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY, HAVING A POLITICAL PARTY BASED ON IDENTITY CAN BE A CHALLENGE SPACE, AND IF WE... I GET IT ` THAT HAVING AN INDIGENOUS PARTY IS A POSITIVE SIGNAL FROM A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND. I GET THAT. BUT IF WE THINK ABOUT THE CHANGING DIVERSITY OF OUR DEMOGRAPHIC HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WE HAVE OTHER POPULATION GROUPS SAYING THAT WE WANT AN IDENTITY-BASED POLITICAL PARTY, WE'VE GOT TO ASK OURSELVES ` IS THAT THE FUTURE WE SEE FOR NEW ZEALAND? NOW, I COULD BE PROVEN WRONG ON THAT, AND I'M HAPPY TO BE. BUT ACTUALLY, I WOULD'VE HOPED THAT NEW ZEALAND IS THE KIND OF COUNTRY THAT BY AND LARGE HAS A VIEW WITH` ACROSS THE CENTRE OF PUBLIC OPINION THAT ASKS THE BIG QUESTIONS LIKE, WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY DO WE WANT TO BE, IN TERMS OF OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY? HOW DO WE BRING MAORI, AS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, AND THE REST OF NEW ZEALAND CLOSER TOGETHER RATHER THAN FURTHER APART? HOW DO WE ARTICULATE THAT? WHAT'S THE CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS FOR ALL OF THAT? AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE I THINK MUCH OF THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE, SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON SO THAT WE DON'T LOSE OUR WAY AND GET PULLED BY EXTREME OPINIONS. WE ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AROUND THE WORLD AND SEE HOW EXTREME OPINIONS HAVE DENTED THE FABRIC OF DEMOCRACY BUT ALSO DENTED THAT SENSE OF NATION-BUILDING, SOCIAL INCLUSION, RESPECT FOR GREATER DIVERSITY. THIS IS JUST A REALLY INTERESTING POINT, AND SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY. YOU'RE SAYING YOU THINK A PARTY THAT IS BASED ON IDENTITY IS POTENTIALLY PROBLEMATIC? I'M SAYING THAT IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I'VE ENTERTAINED, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT MAORI ACROSS NEW ZEALAND HAVE VERY DIVERSE POLITICAL VIEWS. AND WHILE I GET THE FACT THAT AN INDIGENOUS PARTY IS A POSITIVE REFLECTION FOR NEW ZEALAND ABOUT HOW WE'VE EVOLVED, IF THAT INDIGENOUS PARTY IS NEVER IN A POSITION TO EXERCISE INFLUENCE OVER THE WAY THAT THE COUNTRY CAN GO, THEN WHAT IS THE POINT? BECAUSE YOU CANNOT JUST SIT IN OPPOSITION. AND WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IN MY WHOLE TIME OF SERVING MY ELECTORATE IN PARLIAMENT IS UNLESS YOU HAVE THOSE POLITICAL LEVERS TO BE ABLE TO SECURE GAINS AND BE ABLE TO PROMOTE POLICIES AND IDEAS THAT WILL TAKE YOUR PEOPLE FORWARD, WHY ARE YOU IN PARLIAMENT? AND I THINK THAT'S GONNA BE A BIG CHALLENGE. I'M SURE THE MAORI PARTY` BECAUSE IT HAS HAD AT LEAST TWO ITERATIONS OF ARTICULATING ITS ASPIRATIONS, I'M SURE THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW, AND IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW THAT EVOLVES GOING FORWARD. DO YOU THINK THAT LABOUR'S HANDLING OF THE CO-GOVERNANCE PROVISIONS IN THREE WATERS CONTRIBUTED IN ANY WAY TO A SENSE THAT THEY WERE BEING SNEAKY ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF CO-GOVERNANCE? NO. LOOK, IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE DEBATE AND HOW IT UNFOLDED, THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT SECTOR THEMSELVES, OR A PORTION OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT SECTOR, MISCHARACTERISED THE PROVISIONS OF THE WATER REFORM THAT I WAS PROMOTING. BECAUSE IN TERMS OF THE PROFESSIONAL BOARDS THAT WERE BEING ESTABLISHED, THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY SKILL BASED, AND SO FROM A GOVERNANCE POINT OF VIEW, SKILL-BASED METRIC BEING APPLIED TO THESE PROFESSIONAL BOARDS FOR WATER MANAGEMENT AND INVESTMENT. THE JOINT DECISION-MAKING BODY THAT WAS ESTABLISHED, MADE UP OF IWI AND COUNCILLORS, BASICALLY REFLECTED WHAT MANY COUNCILS ALREADY HAVE. COULD THE MESSAGING HAVE BEEN SIMPLER, THOUGH? YES, ABSOLUTELY. COULD I HAVE GOT MORE SUPPORT FROM A BROADER RANGE OF SENIOR MINISTERS DURING THE TIME OF PROMOTING THOSE REFORMS? ABSOLUTELY. YOU DIDN'T FEEL LIKE YOU HAD THE SUPPORT WITHIN CABINET? WELL, AGAIN, WHEN PEOPLE LOOK BACK AT THE DEBATE, AT THE PASSING OF THE LEGISLATION THROUGH THE HOUSE, THEY WILL HAVE SEEN THAT I WAS PRETTY MUCH ALL CARRYING THAT LOAD. IT WAS RECOGNISED BY JACINDA, WHO PRIOR TO HER DEPARTURE SAID, 'LOOK, YOU'VE CARRIED A PRETTY HEFTY LOAD THERE; 'WE'RE GONNA... I WANT YOU TO FOCUS ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,' AND THAT WAS FOLLOWED THROUGH BY CHRIS HIPKINS. SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS HEAVY GOING. WE ESTABLISHED A WATER QUALITY REGULATOR IN TAUMATA AROWAI; THE ARRANGEMENTS AROUND THE REFORM PROGRAMME, DONE IN TWO TRANCHES OF LEGISLATION, AND INITIATED ECONOMIC REGULATORY REFORM TO GET THE WHOLE SYSTEM RIGHT. NOW, THAT WAS DONE PRETTY` THE POLICY ELEMENTS OF THAT WAS DONE OVER FOUR TO FIVE YEARS, WHICH IS A LOT OF HEAVY LIFTING. AND I'M PROUD OF` LOOK, EVEN NOW, YOU CAN'T UNSEE WHAT YOU'VE SEEN, AND THE NUMBERS MAKE SENSE, IN TERMS OF SCALE AND AGGREGATION TO DEBT FINANCE INFRASTRUCTURE. BUT THAT'S ONLY PART OF THE SOLUTION. IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, THEY ARE ALL IMPLEMENTING A SIMILAR TYPE OF MODEL. HOW DID IT AFFECT YOU NOT HAVING THE SUPPORT YOU FELT YOU NEEDED AND DESERVED WHEN TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH THOSE REFORMS? WELL, I THINK IF I DWELL TOO LONG ON THE SUPPORT I DIDN'T GET, THEN I WOULDN'T DO THE THINGS THAT I NEEDED TO DO TO MAKE CHANGE HAPPEN. BECAUSE IF YOU DWELL ON WHAT'S NOT HAPPENING RATHER THAN FOCUS ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, YOU BECOME DISTRACTED. SO I JUST CARRIED ON. IT MUST HAVE IMPACTED YOU AT THE TIME. I'D... I PROBABLY... IT PROBABLY DID, IN ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS. BUT AGAIN, WHAT I KNOW, HAVING BEEN A MINISTER AND HAVING OBSERVED A NUMBER OF MINISTERS ` I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THE KIND OF MINISTER THAT JUST SAT ON MY HANDS AND THOUGHT, 'NAH, THIS IS ALL TOO HARD; I'LL TAKE THE EASY PATH.' YOU SAID THAT JACINDA HAD ACKNOWLEDGED THE LOAD YOU'D CARRIED WITH THOSE REFORMS. COULD SHE HAVE SUPPORTED YOU IN A MORE MEANINGFUL WAY EARLIER? I THINK A CRITICAL ASSESSMENT OF HER IN PARTICULAR AND HER ACTIONS ` YOU WOULD'VE SEEN THAT SHE DID SUPPORT ME VERY EARLY ON, AT ALL KEY JUNCTURES WHERE CORE SIGNALS NEEDED TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE SECTOR AND WITH NEW ZEALAND THAT THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT CAN'T LINGER, AND WE CAN'T KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD. SO, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE, HER LEADERSHIP RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IN TERMS OF SUPPORTING WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ACHIEVE. AFTER THE BREAK ` AS FOREIGN MINISTER, NANAIA MAHUTA WAS CRITICISED FOR HER INITIAL RESPONSE TO THE HAMAS ATTACK. I ASK HER WHAT HAPPENED. WELCOME BACK. FOR THE SECOND PART OF OUR INTERVIEW WITH NANAIA MAHUTA, I ASKED ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY. DO YOU TRUST CHINA TO BE A RESPONSIBLE INTERNATIONAL PLAYER? THEY'D PROBABLY ASK THE SAME THING OF US. AND WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER? YOU KNOW, IN A VERY COMPLEX AND CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT, WE HAVE TO NAVIGATE THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH CARE AND CONSIDERATION, BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME BIG PLAYERS IN OUR REGION ` NOT JUST CHINA; THE U.S. ` THAT REQUIRE VIGILANCE AND ONGOING MANAGEMENT. AND THAT'S WHY I USE THE ANALOGY OF THE DRAGON AND THE TANIWHA. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING THE BIGGEST PLAYER IN THE FIELD OR THE BIGGEST, YOU KNOW, DRAGON ` OR TANIWHA, FOR THAT MATTER; IT'S UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER TO THE DEGREE THAT A RESPECTFUL RELATIONSHIP ENABLES YOU TO HAVE A ROBUST RELATIONSHIP AND TO STILL ACHIEVE SOME SHARED OUTCOMES. AND I SAY THAT VERY DELIBERATELY, BECAUSE EVEN WHEN WE SENT THE SIGNAL TO OUR KEY EXPORTERS THAT THEY NEEDED TO DIVERSIFY THEIR EXPORT PLATFORM AND NOT BE TOTALLY RELIANT ON CHINA, AFTER COVID, EXPORTS WENT UP TO CHINA. SO WE'RE KIND OF CAUGHT AS A GOVERNMENT, AS A NATION ON WHAT OUR EXPORTING COMMUNITIES WANT AS WELL, AND SO WE HAVE TO MANAGE THIS PARTICULAR RELATIONSHIP WITH CARE. THAT WAS A VERY DIPLOMATIC ANSWER. IT'S THE ANSWER THAT MATTERS FOR ALL OF US. TO NOT GIVE THAT RELATIONSHIP CARE LIKE WE GIVE CARE TO THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S... LIKE, OVER TIME, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE RELATE TO THE NEW FORMATION OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH INTERESTS ACROSS THE INDO-PACIFIC; WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE A LOT MORE AGILE IN MANAGING COMPLEX RELATIONSHIPS IN A MORE VIGILANT WAY. IS IT GOING TO BE A BINARY CHOICE ` U.S. OR CHINA? I WOULD HOPE NOT. AND IN FACT, IF WE LOOK AT THE WAY IN WHICH THE EUROPEAN STATES ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, THEY ARE DE-RISKING THEIR RELATIONSHIP RATHER THAN DECOUPLING BECAUSE THEY TOO ARE DEALING WITH THE SAME CHALLENGES. AND WE CANNOT HAVE A WORLD THAT HAS GREATER DIVIDES. WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO CONNECT AND WORK TOGETHER. SO, DOCUMENTS RELEASED UNDER THE OIA SHOW YOU REJECTED ADVICE FROM MFAT OFFICIALS ON A TWEET THAT YOU POSTED REGARDING THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT. SO, THE ADVICE YOU RECEIVED WAS TO SEND AN INITIAL TWEET THAT ACKNOWLEDGED THE TERROR AND ROCKET ATTACKS ORIGINATED IN GAZA, AND YOU REJECTED THAT ADVICE, AND TALKED ABOUT CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA. WHY WAS THAT? YEAH. ONCE I GOT FURTHER INFORMATION, I QUICKLY CLARIFIED THAT AND CONDEMNED THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS. AND THERE WAS A TIME DELAY IN TERMS OF WHEN THE INFORMATION CAME THROUGH, WHEN I SAW IT AND WHEN THE TWEET WENT OUT. BUT THAT SAID, WE HAVE, AS A COUNTRY, AND DURING MY TIME AS MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DRAWN A LINE UNDER SOME KEY STATEMENTS ` FIRSTLY, CONDEMN THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS, CALL FOR THE UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE OF PRISONERS HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS; WE'VE SUPPORTED ISRAEL TO DEFEND ITSELF IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW; WE'VE ALSO CALLED FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE IN ORDER FOR HUMANITARIAN AID CORRIDORS TO BE OPENED UP. AND WE'VE IDENTIFIED THAT THE HUGE LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIVES IS UNACCEPTABLE AND IS HARROWING AS WE CONTINUE TO SEE THIS CONFLICT UNFOLD. WAS IT A MISTAKE TO SEND THAT TWEET? OH, LOOK, I CAN'T DWELL ON MISTAKES. WE DREW A LINE AS SOON AS WE GOT MORE INFORMATION AROUND CONDEMNATION OF THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS. AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATEMENTS OF THE UN SECRETARY GENERAL ` ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT COMPARABLE ` HE TOO GOT PILLORISED FOR COMMENTS THAT WERE SEEN TO BE TOO SOFT; AND THEN, AGAIN, HE CLARIFIED THOSE COMMENTS. SO IF I GET TOO CAUGHT UP ON ORIGINAL TWEETS BASED ON INFORMATION I HAD AT THE TIME BUT HAVE SINCE CLARIFIED, THEN WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE WRONG THING, JACK. OK. LAST QUESTION ON THIS, THOUGH. BASED ON INFORMATION YOU HAD AT THE TIME ` YOU HAD OFFICIAL ADVICE FROM MFAT. THEY DRAFTED THE TWEET, AND YOU REJECTED THAT ADVICE FOR YOUR OWN WORDING. THE INFORMATION CAME TO ME THROUGH ANOTHER PARTY. WHO WAS THE PARTY? THE INFORMATION CAME TO ME THROUGH ANOTHER PARTY. SO ALL I'M SAYING IS I DREW A LINE UNDER THAT, IN TERMS OF CLARIFYING THE ACTIONS OF HAMAS AND CONDEMNING THEM. AND THAT'S ALL I'LL SAY ON THE MATTER. BECAUSE DO YOU KNOW WHAT? TOO MANY INNOCENT LIVES ARE BEING LOST FOR US TO FOCUS ON THINGS THAT ACTUALLY WE SHOULD BE, WHICH IS OPENING UP DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS AND CALLING FOR HUMANITARIAN PAUSE FOR AID TO FLOW TO GAZA ` PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT FOOD, WATER, ENERGY OR MEDICAL SUPPLIES; AND WE ALSO NEED TO ENSURE THAT THERE'S AN ACCELERATION OF TALKS, REAL TALKS AROUND THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION. AND THAT'S GOT TO BE THE ABSOLUTE FOCUS OF ANY DISCOURSE THAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT AROUND ISRAEL AND GAZA. AND WE ARE A PART OF AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THAT CAN BRING PRESSURE TO BEAR ON THAT COURSE OF ACTION. SORRY ` THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE LAST QUESTION. WAS IT AN OFFICIAL SOURCE, THIS THIRD PARTY THAT GAVE YOU INFORMATION? LOOK, I'VE MADE MY COMMENT. AT THE END OF THE DAY, I CLARIFIED FOR THE PURPOSES OF PUBLIC POSITIONING FOR NEW ZEALAND THAT WE CONDEMNED THE TERRORIST ACTIONS OF HAMAS. BUT I THINK IF WE STEP BACK FROM THE TWEET OR A TWEET, WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES ` CAN WE CONTINUE TO PLAY A STRONG AND INFLUENTIAL ROLE ALONGSIDE INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS ABOUT AN END GAME HERE? WE HAVE TO BE A PART OF DE-ESCALATING AND CALLING FOR ISRAEL AND HAMAS TO GO INTO OTHER TYPES OF TALKS THAT WILL NOT LEAD TO THE FURTHER LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIVES. IT'S A CATASTROPHE FOR HUMANITY TO SEE THE INCREASED LOSS OF LIVES, MOST OF WHOM ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN. IT'S HORRIFIC. YOU CRITICISED THE SUPREME COURT DECISION TO OVERTURN ROE VERSUS WADE AS 'DRACONIAN', BUT YOU VOTED AGAINST TAKING ABORTION OUT OF THE CRIMES ACT. SO HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT CIRCLE? WELL, THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, ABORTION IS A CONSCIENCE ISSUE HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, AND POLITICIANS MAKE THAT DECISION; THE ROE VERSUS WADE DECISION WAS MADE BY THE JUDICIARY. AND I THINK THAT THAT IN ITSELF PRESENTS A CHALLENGE, BECAUSE YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES, IN MY MIND, SHOULD BE LEADING THE DEBATE. AND I ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF PARLIAMENT WHEN A VOTE IS MADE. I WOULDN'T BE THE TYPE OF POLITICIAN THAT WOULD TRY AND OVERTURN A DECISION SUCH AS THAT, ESPECIALLY ON A CONSCIENCE ISSUE. SO IT WAS REALLY AROUND THE ROLE OF THE JUDICIARY ON AN ISSUE LIKE THAT. THAT WAS THE DRACONIAN ELEMENT, RATHER THAN...? YEAH, THAT WAS THE DRACONIAN ELEMENT. ...THE NATURE OF THE DECISION? RIGHT. SO WOULD YOU STILL SUPPORT HAVING ABORTION IN THE CRIMES ACT? I THINK IT'S A HEALTH ISSUE. I THINK IT IS A HEALTH ISSUE. YOU'LL SEE THAT ONE OF THE OTHER VOTES THAT I MADE WAS TO CREATE SAFE SPACES AROUND ABORTION CLINICS SO THAT THOSE WOMEN WHO ARE MAKING DECISIONS WOULD BE TREATED WITH RESPECT FOR THE DECISION THAT THEY HAD MADE. BUT IF IT IS A HEALTH ISSUE, SHOULD IT BE IN THE CRIMES ACT OR NOT? UM... (SIGHS) PROBABLY NOT. (CHUCKLES) SO THERE'S REFLECTIONS, EH? THERE'S REFLECTIONS AND REFLECTIONS. BUT THIS IS THE THING THAT YOU HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH WHEN YOU... I THINK IT'S ABORTION AND ALCOHOL ISSUES ARE GENERALLY THE ISSUES THAT ARE CONSIDERED CONSCIENCE ISSUES. WOULD YOU SUPPORT NEW ZEALAND BECOMING A REPUBLIC? YES. AND I'VE BEEN ON THE RECORD... FOR A LONG TIME SAYING THAT THAT, IN MY VIEW, IS THE FUTURE DIRECTION THAT WE SHOULD BE GOING ` IF WE CAN UNDERPIN THAT DECISION WITH A STRONG DISCOURSE AROUND OUR CONSTITUTIONAL ARRANGEMENTS, THE PLACE OF THE TREATY. AND WHAT SHOULD THAT BE, DO YOU THINK? HOW WOULD WE GO ABOUT NAVIGATING THE PLACE OF THE TREATY IF WE WERE`? PROBABLY WITH SOME DIFFICULTY. BUT IT'S A FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE PLACE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION THAN A REFERENDUM ON THE TREATY. A REFERENDUM ON THE TREATY WILL MEAN THAT THE MAJORITY OF NEW ZEALANDERS, POTENTIALLY, MIGHT SEE NO FUTURE FOR THE TREATY IN THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY, WHEREAS A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVERSATION AROUND THE PLACE OF THE TREATY WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF A REPUBLIC IS A HEALTHY DEBATE, AND WE SHOULD BE OPENING UP THOSE DOORS. AND IT'S A LONG CONVERSATION, BUT IT COULD BE A FOCUSED CONVERSATION. SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT WE WOULD USE TE TIRITI AND THE PRINCIPLES OF TE TIRITI TO INFORM A CONSTITUTION UNDER A NEW ZEALAND REPUBLIC? ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY WE WOULD. AND, YOU KNOW, WE WILL HAVE ACADEMICS, WE WILL HAVE IWI, WE WILL HAVE NEW ZEALANDERS, WE WILL HAVE VARIOUS STAKEHOLDERS WHO WILL WANT TO OPEN UP A CONVERSATION THAT PLAUSIBLY ENABLES US TO CONTEMPLATE WHETHER OR NOT THE TREATY SHOULD BE A FORMAL PART OF A WRITTEN CONSTITUTION OR WHETHER IT SHOULD REMAIN WITH SOME CONTINUED MORAL OBLIGATION ALONGSIDE A FORMAL CONSTITUTION, OR SOME OTHER KIND OF ITERATION. BUT THE POINT IS ` IT'S ABOUT, HOW DO WE BUILD A NATION BASED ON THE FOUNDATION THAT WE HAVE INHERITED? NOT, HOW DO WE IGNORE THE FOUNDATION THAT WE INHERITED AND THEN CREATE THIS KIND OF SENSE OF NATIONHOOD? I DON'T THINK THAT PATH WILL EVER SERVE US VERY WELL. I WANT TO FINISH UP WITH SOME REFLECTIONS, THEN, AND I KNOW IT WILL BE HARD, WHEN YOU THINK BACK OVER YOUR PARLIAMENTARY CAREER, TO PUT ONE THING AT THE TOP OF THE LIST, BUT IS THERE A PROUDEST MOMENT? IS THERE A PROUDEST ACHIEVEMENT, SOMETHING YOU FEEL PARTICULARLY CONNECTED TO? I THINK THERE ARE SO MANY, IT WOULD BE REALLY DIFFICULT. I DON'T THINK I'VE CHANGED AS A PERSON. I THINK PEOPLE WHO KNEW ME WHEN I FIRST STARTED IN PARLIAMENT AND THEY HAVE KNOWN ME SINCE AND NOW THAT I'VE LEFT PARLIAMENT, THEY'LL SAY, YOU KNOW, 'SURE, YOU MATURED, 'GAINED A LOT MORE INFORMATION, 'BUT ESSENTIALLY YOUR CHARACTER AS A PERSON REMAINED THE SAME.' WHICH IS AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR A PERIOD IN PARLIAMENT OF THAT TIME. I DON'T LEAVE BITTER. I LEAVE HAVING FELT VERY PROUD ABOUT THE ACHIEVEMENTS THAT I HAVE MADE. AND I'VE HAD TWO BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN ALONG THE WAY, AND THEY'VE SEEN ME GROW AND FLOURISH, AND I'VE SEEN THEM GROW AND FLOURISH DURING MY TIME IN SERVICE. BUT I'VE ALSO REMAINED KIND OF CLOSELY CONNECTED TO MY ELECTORATE AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT I'VE FORMED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, AND I'LL CONTINUE TO HONOUR THOSE RELATIONSHIPS. BUT AS A PERSON, I HAVEN'T CHANGED. I'M NOT BITTER. IS THERE SOMETHING AT THE TOP OF THE LIST WHEN IT COMES TO UNFINISHED BUSINESS? IS THERE SOMETHING YOU REALLY WISH YOU JUST HAD A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME OR SUPPORT TO..? I THINK STAYING TRUE TO THE SPIRIT OF WHY I WENT INTO PARLIAMENT, AND THAT WAS DURING THE` AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TREATY SETTLEMENT PROCESS. IT WAS TO ENSURE THAT ALL THE TREATY SETTLEMENTS ACROSS TAINUI WAKA COULD BE COMPLETED, AND THE ONLY OUTSTANDING BIG SETTLEMENT OF AN IWI, UH, DEGREE THAT STILL NEEDS TO BE KIND OF PASSED THROUGH THE HOUSE IS THE HAURAKI COLLECTIVE OF SETTLEMENTS, AND THAT'S TO GET TO COMPLETE THEIR LEGISLATION. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN SO THAT THE SELF-DETERMINATION ASPIRATIONS OF THE IWI WITHIN TAINUI WAKA CAN BE ACHIEVED AND THEN THEY CAN START TO LOOK FOR COOPERATIVE WAYS OF WORKING TOGETHER TO STRENGTHEN THEIR ASPIRATION OR THE FUTURE WITHIN THIS PART OF THE COUNTRY. WHEN DO YOU THINK WE'LL HAVE THE FIRST MAORI ELECTED PRIME MINISTER? SOON, I HOPE. IS THERE SOMEONE IN PARLIAMENT YOU THINK, 'OHH, MAYBE'? PROBABLY SOME... PROBABLY THERE ARE MANY CANDIDATES, AND, YOU KNOW, A DAY'S A LONG TIME IN POLITICS; SO IS A WEEK. BUT I WOULD HOPE THAT YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS SEE THEMSELVES AS A PART OF OUR POLITICAL FUTURE AND THAT IT DOESN'T BURN THEM OUT. I'M A BIT WORRIED ABOUT SOME OF THE TOXIC ASPECTS THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY BURN PEOPLE OUT BEFORE THEY EVEN GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, SO WE HAVE TO PUT A LOT OF SUPPORTS IN THERE, I'M PRETTY SURE. BUT, YEAH, I DON'T THINK WE'RE TOO FAR OFF, JACK. I RECKON WE MIGHT BE FAIRLY CLOSE TO OUR FIRST ELECTED MAORI PRIME MINISTER. AND HOW ABOUT YOU? YOU DON'T SEEM LIKE MUCH OF A THUMB-TWIDDLER. HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT FEW YEARS MIGHT ENTAIL? PROBABLY A LOT OF SERVICE, TO DO A LOT OF THINGS AS WELL. LOOK, I'VE JUST SAID A LOT OF WHANAU, I'M GONNA JUST TAKE THIS TIME TO DO ME, DO MY LITTLE FAMILY, REST, UNPACK A LOT OF THINGS IN MY MIND, BUT ALSO LITERALLY, AND THEN LET'S SEE WHAT THE NEW YEAR BRINGS. BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M READY FOR A NEW CHAPTER. AS I SAY, I'M NOT BITTER. I WILL WATCH WITH INTEREST THE PROGRESSION OF THE INCOMING NEW GOVERNMENT ` BUT ALSO HOW THOSE IN OPPOSITION CONTINUE TO DO THEIR ROLE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO DO THEIR ROLE REALLY WELL. AND THEN, FOR THE MOST PART, DOING MUM STUFF AS WELL. I HOPE YOU CAN ENJOY THAT. OH, I WILL. I WILL. YEAH. NANAIA MAHUTA. WE SPOKE AT TE TOKANGA-NUI-A-NOHO WHARENUI IN TE KUITI EARLIER THIS WEEK. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, X OR ON FACEBOOK. COMING UP ` IF YOU'VE GOT ELECTION CAMPAIGN FATIGUE, SPARE A THOUGHT FOR THE VOTERS AND CANDIDATES IN PORT WAIKATO. BUT AFTER THE BREAK ON Q+A ` THE GOVERNMENT PROMISED A NEW SUPPLY BOAT FOR THE CHATHAM ISLANDS, BUT RESIDENTS ON THE ISLAND ARE STILL WAITING, AND THE IMPACT HAS BEEN MASSIVE. FRUSTRATION IS GROWING ON THE CHATHAM ISLANDS OVER THE LACK OF PROGRESS ON A NEW CARGO SHIP USED TO SUPPLY ESSENTIALS. THE GOVERNMENT PROMISED $30M IN LAST YEAR'S BUDGET FOR A NEW SHIP. THE CURRENT VESSEL IS RAPIDLY APPROACHING 40 YEARS OLD. IT'S PRONE TO BREAKDOWNS AND SUPER-UNRELIABLE, WHICH IS LEADING TO ALL SORTS OF HEADACHES. HERE'S CUSHLA NORMAN. 800km FROM THE MAINLAND, THE CHATHAMS COME INTO VIEW ` POPULATION 660. TOUCHING DOWN AMONG THE TOURISTS, THE NEW MP JULIE ANNE GENTER, FROM THE GREENS, SWAPPING OUT FOR PAUL EAGLE, FORMERLY OF LABOUR, WHO IS NOW THE CHATHAMS COUNCIL CEO. WELCOME. MADE IT! (CHUCKLES) YOU MADE IT. THIS IS WAITANGI, THE ISLAND'S NERVE CENTRE. IT ALL FEELS A LONG WAY FROM WELLINGTON. DIESEL POWERS THE ECONOMY, AND LIVELIHOODS DEPEND ON ONE OLD, UNRELIABLE CARGO SHIP THAT'S NOT DOCKED WHEN WE VISIT. AND THIS FAMOUS BOAT THAT YOU RELY ON SO MUCH ` THE VESSEL, IT COMES INTO HERE. YUP. YUP. SOUTHERN TIARE. BUT THERE WAS NO SOUTHERN TIARE FOR FOUR MONTHS THIS YEAR; IT WAS AWAY GETTING FIXED UNTIL AUGUST. THE ISLAND NEARLY RAN OUT OF DIESEL. WE HAD ABOUT A COUPLE OF DAYS LEFT OF DIESEL LEFT, UM, TO KEEP THE GENERATORS GOING UNTIL THE ACTUAL SHIP ACTUALLY ARRIVED. THAT MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY TERRIFYING. WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT? THERE WAS NOTHING WE COULD DO. BECAUSE... YOU COULDN'T GET AN ALTERNATIVE. YEAH, YOU COULDN'T GET AN ALTERNATIVE SHIP HERE IN TIME. WE CALLED THE NAVY; THEY COULDN'T GET HERE TILL NEXT YEAR. YOU COULD BRING IN A PLANE, BUT THEY COULD ONLY BRING A SMALL SUPPLY` YOU KNOW THE HERCULES, SO` BUT ONLY A SMALL SUPPLY OF DIESEL. SO... ESSENTIALLY, WE WOULD` THE LIGHTS WOULD HAVE GONE OUT. AND THAT WOULD'VE HAVE BEEN DISASTROUS. THE ISLAND SHOULD GET THE SHIP TWICE A MONTH, BUT IT'S MORE LIKE EVERY THREE WEEKS ` AND THAT'S IF THINGS ARE GOING WELL; BREAKDOWNS ARE COMMON. YOU CAN'T RUN A BUSINESS AND YOU CAN'T RUN A FARM IF IT KEEPS STAYING THE SAME. SO WE WANT CHANGE. I'M JUST GONNA SORT THESE OUT. THERE ARE TWO SHOPS ON THE ISLAND. WE'VE RUN OUT OF, YOU KNOW, MILK, CREAMS, YEAST, FLOUR ` THE BASICS. PET FOOD. WHAT HAPPENED THIS YEAR WHEN THE BOAT DIDN'T COME FOR FOUR MONTHS? WE GOT REALLY, REALLY LOW. THAT'S WHEN THE PLANE PICKED UP THE SLACK FOR US. WE WERE LUCKY ENOUGH IT WAS OUT OF TOUR SEASON, SO WE MANAGED TO GET A BIT OF FREIGHT THROUGH, BUT OF COURSE, THE PRICE INCREASE REFLECTED THAT. AND THINGS ARE PRICEY. FOR A 2L BOTTLE OF MILK, YOU'RE LOOKING AT NEARLY $15, AND FOR A BLOCK OF BUTTER ` WELL, THAT'S NEARLY $13. SO PRICES ARE DOUBLE, IF NOT MORE THAN DOUBLE OF WHAT IT WOULD BE ON THE MAINLAND. IT'S NOT JUST IMPORTS; THE ISLAND'S LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTS ARE ALSO AT THE MERCY OF THE SHIP. FARMERS HAVE SHIFTED FAR LESS STOCK THIS YEAR ` AND WE DISCOVER THE CONSEQUENCES. SO, STEVEN AND I HAVE BEEN DRIVING ALONG THIS ROAD, AND WE'VE PROBABLY SEEN ABOUT HALF A DOZEN CATTLE CARCASSES. (SOMBRE MUSIC) THESE CATTLE WERE PUT DOWN BY TONY ANDERSON. HIS FARM WAS OVERSTOCKED WITH ANIMAL THAT COULDN'T GET ON THE SHIP. HE SAYS THEY WOULD HAVE STARVED. SO, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE GRASS. SO WE HAD TO DESTROY... 400 CATTLE, WHICH YOU'VE SEEN EVIDENCE OF. AND THAT WASN'T A VERY NICE THING, BUT... AND THEY WERE PUT DOWN BECAUSE THERE WAS NOWHERE ELSE TO SEE THEM. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU COULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY? WAS THIS A CASE OF POOR FARM MANAGEMENT, PERHAPS? OH, I'M SURE I'VE GOT PROBLEMS. MOST OF OUR ANIMALS WILL GO PRIME, WHICH MEANS THAT THEY'RE WELL CARED FOR, WELL LOOKED AFTER, AND IF THEY GET OFF DOWN AT THE RIGHT TIME, WE DON'T` OUR SYSTEMS ARE FINE. I'VE SEEN THOSE BODIES BY THE LAGOON WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM? THEY'LL ROT AWAY. THEY WILL TURN INTO FERTILISER. THAT'S JUST WHAT HAPPENS? YOU DON'T PICK THEM UP AND TAKE THEM ANYWHERE? THEY'RE DEAD. THAT'S PRETTY BRUTAL. IT'S A BRUTAL PLACE. THE MINISTRY FOR PRIMARY INDUSTRIES IS AWARE SOME ANIMALS HAD TO BE HUMANELY CULLED DUE TO LIMITED FEED. IT'S NOT AWARE OF ANY BREACHES OF ANIMAL WELFARE STANDARDS ON THE CHATHAMS DURING THE SHIP'S OUTAGE. THERE ARE 42 FARMS ACROSS THE CHATHAMS. FEW ARE MAKING A PROFIT. TONY'S ONCE-VALUABLE LAMBS COULDN'T GET ON THE SHIP WHEN IT MATTERED; NOW THEY'RE MUTTON. SO, WE'VE GONE FROM A GROSS OF ABOUT $140 DOWN TO ABOUT ` AT THE MOMENT, IN TODAY'S MARKET ` PERHAPS $60. BUT IT COST $40 FOR SHIPMENT TO NEW ZEALAND. SO YOU MAKE 20 BUCKS PER ANIMAL? SO, WE'VE JUST LOST $200,000. AN ABATTOIR HAS BEEN FLOATED AS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION, BUT WHAT PEOPLE HERE WANT MOST IS A RELIABLE SHIPPING SERVICE. THE SOUTHERN TIARE IS OWNED AND RUN BY THE CHATHAMS ENTERPRISE TRUST. IT'S 35 YEARS OLD, AND IN LAST YEAR'S BUDGET, $30m WAS SET ASIDE TO REPLACE IT. THE TRUST HAS YET TO SEE THAT MONEY. WE SO BADLY NEED OUR NEW VESSEL. OUR CURRENT VESSEL... SINCE SURVEY HAS SUFFERED MECHANICAL AND PHYSICAL FAILURE; OUR SCHEDULE IS CONSISTENTLY BEHIND TIME. OUR ISLAND IS REALLY STRUGGLING BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A RELIABLE, TIMELY SHIPPING SERVICE AT THE MOMENT. AND WE ARE AT RISK OF A BREAKDOWN WITH ANOTHER SERVICE OUTAGE, WHICH WOULD JUST CRIPPLE OUR ISLAND. YOU'RE MEANT TO HAVE A NEW SHIP BY 2025. DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN? I THINK IT IS ENTIRELY UNREALISTIC THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A REPLACEMENT VESSEL TRADING BY 2025. AND SO WHY HAS THIS STALLED? I WISH I COULD ANSWER THAT EASILY. WE NEEDED TO DEMONSTRATE TO THE GOVERNMENT THAT WE HAD A, UH... AN OWNERSHIP PLAN, A GOVERNANCE STRUCTURE AND AN OPERATING MODEL THAT WAS SUITABLE` YOU'VE DONE THAT? ABSOLUTELY ` IN SPADES. IN A STATEMENT, THE TRANSPORT MINISTRY TOLD Q&A ` THAT'S A PRETTY AMAZING WALK OUT THERE. THE NEW MP FOR THE CHATHAMS ` WHICH IS IN FACT PART OF THE RONGOTAI ELECTORATE ` IS SCHOOLING UP ON THE ISLAND'S HISTORY AND CHALLENGES. JULIE ANNE GENTER'S PRIORITY IS FINDING OUT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE REPLACEMENT SHIP. IT IS SOMEWHAT MYSTERIOUS TO ME WHY MONEY APPROPRIATED IN 2022 HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD TO A PROCUREMENT PROCESS, BECAUSE PROCURING A BOAT TAKES SOME TIME, YOU WANT TO GET ON WITH IT QUICKLY, COS IT WILL STILL BE YEARS BEFORE THEY GET A NEW BOAT ONCE THAT PROCESS STARTS. SO YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THAT MONE TO HAVE BEEN DRAWN DOWN BY NOW? AS THE LOCAL MP, I'LL BE ASKING QUESTIONS AND CERTAINLY CONTACTING THE PUBLIC SERVICE TO TRY AND FIND OUT WHAT NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD. IT MUST BE LIKE CHRISTMAS DAY DOWN HERE WHEN THE SHIP COMES IN. (CHUCKLES) IT SURE IS. AND THE OTHER THING ` WHEN YOU ORDER, YOU CAN FORGET THE ONE BASIC THING, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT FOR ANOTHER, SORT OF, THREE WEEKS. AFTER THE BREAK ` ASIDE FROM A WIN IN THE PORT WAIKATO BY-ELECTION, WHAT ELSE IS ANDREW BAYLY CHASING? DESPITE CONCERNS VOTER TURNOUT IN THE PORT WAIKATO BY-ELECTION WOULD BE LOW, THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION REPORT A CRACKING FIRST WEEK OF ADVANCED VOTING. IT'S ONE OF THE BLUEST ELECTORATES IN THE COUNTRY, WITH INCUMBENT ANDREW BAYLY HOLDING THE SEAT FORMERLY KNOWN AS HUNUA FOR THE LAST NINE YEARS. WITH LABOUR, ACT AND GREENS NOT STANDING CANDIDATES, BAYLY'S MAIN COMPETITION IS NEW ZEALAND FIRST. REPORTER WHENA OWEN CHECKED IN ON THE CAMPAIGNS. RIGHTO, THERE'S A CRACKING PEN OF LAMB. RIGHTO, START 'EM AWAY THERE. GONNA TO BE WHAT? GONNA BE 135 TO GO. AT THE TUAKAU SALEYARDS, THE TALK IS ABOUT THE LOW PRICES FARMERS ARE GETTING FOR THEIR LAMBS. 32. FIVE AND ONE. 32. THREE. THE INCUMBENT MP FOR PORT WAIKATO, NATIONAL'S ANDREW BAYLY, HAS COME ALONG TO CHEW THE FAT ` AND SPRING INTO ACTION WHEN LIVESTOCK ARE ON THE LOOSE. (LIVELY BANJO MUSIC) JUMPING BUGGER. HE'S ALSO THERE TO REMIND THESE GUYS TO VOTE. YOU'RE GONNA VOTE, EH? ABSOLUTELY. WE KNOW WHO WE'RE VOTING FOR, TOO, EH? ABSOLUTELY. BUT HE'S WORRIED HIS POTENTIAL VOTERS WILL BE COMPLACENT. IT'S DOUBLY WORSE, BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO WIN, AND UNLESS THEY TURN OUT AND VOTE, WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOING TO WIN. (THE DOOBIE BROTHERS' 'TAKING IT TO THE STREETS') THE PORT WAIKATO ELECTORATE STRETCHES FROM THE MANUKAU HEADS DOWN TO TE KAUWHATA. IT TAKES IN TOWNS LIKE POKENO, WAIUKU AND PUKEKOHE. NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S CASEY COSTELLO IS CONSIDERED ANDREW BAYLY'S MAIN CHALLENGER. SOME OF THE OTHER PARTIES HAVE SAID THIS IS UNWINNABLE. YOU'RE ALREADY SAFELY IN PARLIAMENT ` YOU'RE NUMBER THREE. SO WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS? IT'S MY TOWN. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME. THIS IS WHERE I POLICED. THIS IS WHERE I LIVE. THIS IS WHERE I'VE LIVED MOST OF MY LIFE. THIS IS WHERE MOST OF MY FAMILY LIVE. IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME THAT WE GET A STRONG LOCAL REPRESENTATION. FOR STARTERS, COSTELLO AND BAYLY HAVE HAD TO SPREAD THE WORD THAT THERE'S A BY-ELECTION GOING ON. IT WAS REALLY FUNNY, BECAUSE WHEN WE STARTED PUTTING SIGNS UP, I STARTED GETTING MESSAGES AND EMAILS FROM PEOPLE SAYING, YOU KNOW, TRYING NOT TO GET ME IN TROUBLE, SORT OF LIKE, 'DO YOU KNOW YOUR HOARDINGS ARE STILL UP,' 'COS, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTION'S OVER?' AND I HAD TO EXPLAIN THAT WE'VE ACTUALLY GOT A BY-ELECTION. LOOK AT THIS. VOTE 13. IS THAT YOUR GRAFFITI, ANDREW? I WISH IT WAS, BUT THANKFULLY, SOMEONE'S DONE IT. OFFICIALLY, NINE CANDIDATES ARE STANDING IN THIS BY-ELECTION. BUT ONE HAS NOW DEFECTED. THAT'S SCOTTY BRIGHT FROM DEMOCRACY NZ. IT'S ABOUT THE PORT WAIKATO ELECTORATE AND REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE HERE TO THE BEST THAT WE CAN. AND WE THINK NEW ZEALAND FIRST HAS GOT THE BEST ABILITY TO DO THAT. I HEARD THAT YOU'D BEEN ON THE PHONE TO SOME OF THE OTHER CANDIDATES, TRYING TO CONVINCE THEM TO GO WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST. WELL, IT WASN'T REALLY TRYING TO CONVINCE THEM. I WAS JUST TELLING THEM MY POSITION. I THINK THAT IT'S CRAZY STANDING IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CHANCE IN THIS ELECTORATE. YOU'RE JUST ATTRACTING THE VOTES. I THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A FARCE, AND IF THEY DON'T, THEY NEED TO ACTUALLY GO AWAY AND DO SOME RESEARCH. BUT KIM TURNER TOLD HIM SHE'S STAYING LOYAL TO NZ LOYAL. AND NEW ZEAL'S ALFRED NGARO AS BUSY SELLING HIS STRATEGY. ANDREW BAYLY IS ALREADY IN. HE'S ON THE LIST. CASEY COSTELLO'S GREAT. SHE'S ON THE LIST AS WELL. YOU GET A CHANCE TO VOTE IN A THIRD ELECTORATE MP. JILL OVENS FROM THE WOMEN'S RIGHTS PARTY WANTS TO FILL IN THE GAPS. SO I'M ASKING THOSE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT LABOUR, GREENS OR ACT TO CONSIDER VOTING FOR ME. ALL THE BEST, ANDREW. HOPE YOU GO WELL. CAN I SAY WHO I'M VOTING FOR? YEAH. YEAH. NATIONAL. YOU'RE A GOOD PERSON. DO YOU KNOW WHO THE NATIONAL MP IS? YEAH, ANDREW BAYLY. WHEREABOUTS IS HE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE? IS IT YOU? YEAH. SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM YOUR PHOTO. CAN I ASK YOU WHO YOU'RE VOTING FOR? NEW ZEALAND FIRST. SO YOU'RE VOTING FOR CASEY COSTELLO? I SURE AM. IF YOU'RE IN THIS AREA, VOTE FOR CASEY. PORT WAIKATO ELECTION ` BY-ELECTION. GOOD FUN. FOR A WHILE, CASEY COSTELLO WAS THE MYSTERY NEW ZEALAND FIRST CANDIDATE WHO SUDDENLY APPEARED AT NUMBER THREE ON THEIR LIST. HER WORKING BACKGROUND IS IN POLICE, ON THE BEAT AND LATER AS A CIB DETECTIVE. THEN SHE WENT ON TO SECURITY. I WENT DOWN TO PARLIAMENT TO RUN SECURITY AND OPERATIONS. AND, YEAH, I WORKED FOR A FEW YEARS THERE. THEN BACK HERE AS A PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, EXPOSING CASES OF MIGRANT EXPLOITATION. AND LAST MONTH SHE WAS BACK IN PARLIAMENT AS AN MP. I WALKED UP TO THE FRONT DOORS AND IT JUST, LIKE, YOU KNOW, TO THINK THAT I WAS GOING THERE AS AN MP ` JUST AMAZING, JUST INCREDIBLE. JUST SO HUMBLING. I JUST I FEEL JUST SO PRIVILEGED TO BE ABLE TO BE IN THAT POSITION. DO YOU KNOW WHICH PARTY SHE'S FROM? NO. NATIONAL, ARE YOU? NEW ZEALAND FIRST. OH, BRILLIANT! GOOD GIRL. THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST CANDIDATE IS FROM A LARGE NGAPUHI FAMILY. TWO OF HER ANCESTORS SIGNED THE TREATY. BUT SHE HAS VIEWS SOME FIND CHALLENGING ON THE STATUS OF MAORI. YOU WERE A SPOKESPERSON FOR HOBSON'S PLEDGE, AND THERE'D BE PEOPLE WHO WOULD DISMISS YOU AS RACIST BECAUSE OF THAT. ARE YOU RACIST? THAT'S WHAT I FIND SO ASTOUNDING, IS THAT ONE OF THE STRONGEST POSITIONS I'VE HAD IS THAT WE HAVE LOST THE ABILITY TO LOOK AT PEOPLE AS THEIR INDIVIDUAL. AND AS SOON AS WE START PUTTING EVERYBODY INTO GROUPS AND NOT ALLOWING INDIVIDUALS TO BE HEARD FOR WHO THEY ARE AS PEOPLE... AND THAT'S ALL I WANTED, WAS TO ENSURE THAT EVERYBODY HAD EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW. MITIGATING COASTAL EROSION AND ELITE HORTICULTURAL LAND GOING INTO HOUSING... THAT'S BEAUTIFUL SOIL. ...ARE SOME OF THE ISSUES LOCALS WANT ACTION ON HERE. I'M VOTING FOR ANDREW. HE CAME TO MY DOOR YESTERDAY. SO YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED IN VOTING IN THE BY-ELECTION? NOT THIS TIME. WHY IS THAT? ARE YOU TIRED OF IT? YEAH, YOU JUST GET SICK OF THE SAME OLD THING. SO YOU WERE IMPRESSED THAT HE CAME AND KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR? ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. WHO WANTS TO DO THAT ON A SUNDAY? THAT'S A KILLER DOG. HE MOST ASSUREDLY IS. IF ANDREW BAYLY KEEPS THE SEAT, HE'LL BRING IN NANCY LU, WHO'S NEXT ON THE PARTY'S LIST. AND THAT'S HOW WE GET TO 123 SEATS IN PARLIAMENT. AND FOR A NATIONAL COALITION, IT MEANS WE'RE A STRONGER GOVERNMENT. I HOPE YOU VOTE, DARLING. I WILL DEFINITELY VOTE. BAYLY, 14th ON THE LIST, HAS TRADITIONAL NATIONAL PARTY CREDENTIALS ` HE WAS A FARMER, A MERCHANT BANKER ` BUT THERE ARE ALSO SURPRISES. THIS IS A MAN WHO DRAGGED SLEDGES TO THE POLES FOR KICKS. HE WAS WITH THE PARACHUTE REGIMENT OF THE BRITISH ARMY. HE SPENT ONE SUMMER HOLIDAYS TREKKING ON REINDEER WITH A TRIBE IN MONGOLIA. WE DECIDED TO FOLLOW THE ROUTES OF LAWRENCE OF ARABIA ON CAMELS. NO ONE HAD EVER DONE IT BEFORE. LOOK AT THAT. ISN'T THAT FABULOUS? BEAUTIFUL. BUT THE TREKS ARE NOW BEHIND HIM, AND RIGHT NOW, HE'D RATHER ADMIRE THE TUAKAU RIVER VALLEY AND HOPE HE CAN CONTINUE HIS WORK AS THE MP FOR PORT WAIKATO. THAT'S WHENA OWEN REPORTING FROM PORT WAIKATO. VOTING IS OPEN UNTIL 7 O'CLOCK ON SATURDAY NIGHT. HEI AKUANEI ` WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. JUST BEFORE WE GO, A QUICK UPDATE. 1 NEWS UNDERSTANDS NATIONAL WILL BE DOING THINGS BY PHONE THIS MORNING. CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND NATIONAL WILL NOT BE AT THE CORDIS HOTEL, WHERE HE HAS BEEN BASED OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS. WE'LL BRING YOU UPDATES AT 1NEWS.CO.NZ THROUGHOUT THE DAY AND ON 1 NEWS AT 6 TONIGHT. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY JAMES BROWN AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023.