TENA TATAU KATOA. I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU. WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. well, CHRISTOPHER LUXON SHOULD BE AT APEC THIS WEEKEND. INSTEAD HE'S ENTERING A 15TH DAY OF TALKS TRYING TO FORM A GOVERNMENT. COULD HIS FOREIGN BUYERS TAX BE DEAD? MEANWHILE, IT'S A NEVER-ENDING CAMPAIGN FOR THE PEOPLE OF PORT WAIKATO. WE ARE WITH THE LEADING CANDIDATES. AND THE NEW GREEN MP WHO WAS ONCE AN ACTOR IN A MEMORABLE TV COMMERCIAL. THAT'S COMING UP ON BACKSTORY. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 WELL, IT'S FIVE WEEKS TODAY SINCE KIWIS VOTED, BUT STILL NO GOVERNMENT. THE THREE MEN TASKED WITH FORMING IT DID FINALLY APPEAR TOGETHER, BUT BEHIND THE SMILES IN THE PHOTO THEY SUPPLIED, THERE IS A TOUGH BATTLE BEING FOUGHT. WE'RE HEARING THAT A RECKONING IS TAKING PLACE BETWEEN CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND WINSTON PETERS OVER THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX. MILKING FOREIGN BUYERS IS A CRUCIAL FUNDING ELEMENT OF NATIONAL'S CAMPAIGN PROMISE TO VOTERS ` A FULLY-FUNDED TAX CUT PLAN. HERE IS CHRISTOPHER LUXON ON THAT. SO ARE THERE ANY CONDITIONS THAT WOULD MAKE YOU RETHINK YOUR TAX CUT POLICY? NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. BY VIRTUE OF THE WAY THAT WE SAID WE WOULD DESIGN IT A LONG TIME AGO, WE SAID ALWAYS THAT WE WOULD MAKE SURE WE HAVE A FULLY SELF-FUNDED TAX PLAN. I'M ACTUALLY TAKING IT FROM PEDRO TO PAY PAUL, BECAUSE I'M TAKING IT FROM FOREIGN BUYERS, AND I'M SAYING IF YOU WANT TO PURCHASE A HOUSE HERE IN NEW ZEALAND, YOU WILL PAY A 15% TAX. THAT MONEY IS GOING STRAIGHT TO HARD-WORKING KIWIS WHO DESERVE A TAX BREAK. I THINK THAT'S A FANTASTIC PLAN, AND VOTERS LOVE IT. AND` DO THEY? YEAH. THEY APPRECIATE THAT WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THEM TAX RELIEF AND THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO FIND A WAY TO BE ABLE TO FUND IT COMPLETELY IN A STANDALONE TAX PLAN. I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S GREAT ABOUT THE IDEA. WINSTON PETERS, HE'S IN IF YOU NEED HIM, ISN'T HE? NO, I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT WINSTON PETERS AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN IN PARLIAMENT, AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CONSISTENTLY ABOVE THRESHOLD. I AM CONFIDENT I CAN FORM A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL BE VERY STABLE, VERY ALIGNED, AND GET THINGS DONE FOR THE NEW ZEALAND PEOPLE. WITH WINSTON PETERS. DISAGREE. BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE NOW, AND EITHER CHRISTOPHER LUXON SACRIFICES THE CONTROVERSIAL FOREIGN BUYERS TAX OR WINSTON PETERS COMPROMISES HIS VALUES AND GOES AGAINST NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S FOUNDING PRINCIPLE NUMBER ONE ` 'TO PUT NEW ZEALAND AND ALL NEW ZEALANDERS FIRST.' HE HAS CAMPAIGNED AGAINST FOREIGN COMPETITION FOR KIWIS IN AREAS LIKE HOUSING FOR DECADES. SO IT IS LUXON... OR PETERS, AND WHAT WE'RE HEARING IS THAT THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX IS NOW BASICALLY DEAD. THAT WOULD LEAVE LUXON WITH A $2.8 BILLION DOLLAR HOLE IN HIS 'FULLY-FUNDED' TAX PLAN OVER FOUR YEARS. THERE ARE NO SIMPLE WAYS TO FILL IT. NATIONAL CAN BORROW THE $2.8 BILLION TO FUND THEIR TAX CUTS, IT GO EVEN DEEPER WITH ITS PUBLIC SERVICE CUTS, OR DEFER THE TAX CUTS ` SOMETHING IT HAS EXPLICITLY RULED OUT. SO WE UNDERSTAND BOTH PARTIES HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR A RABBIT TO PULL OUT OF THEIR HAT THIS WEEK AND SNIFFING AROUND THE DIGITAL SERVICES TAX AS A POSSIBLE WAY TO GENERATE SOME OF THAT REVENUE. BUT NO RABBIT YET, AND THE PRESSURE IS MOUNTING FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON TO CLOSE THE DEAL. MATTHEW HOOTON HAS WORKED ON POLITICAL STRATEGY FOR BOTH NATIONAL AND ACT OVER THE YEARS, AND HE JOINS US NOW IN THE STUDIO. GOOD MORNING, MATTHEW. GOOD MORNING. THIS ISN'T HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO, IS IT? CHRISTOPHER LUXON SHOULD BE AT APEC THIS WEEKEND, BUT HE'S RIGHT NOW IN LIMBOLAND. IT HAS BEEN AN HUMILIATING FIVE WEEKS FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON. HE SAID THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION THAT HE WAS A MAN OF ACTION, THAT HE KNEW ABOUT MERGERS AND ACQUISITIONS, ABOUT NEGOTIATIONS, AND HE WOULD GET CRACKING THAT AFTERNOON, HAVING A MEETING WITH A STRATEGY PEOPLE, BUT NONE OF THAT HAS HAPPENED. BUT PERHAPS... TO BE FAIR TO HIM, WHAT IS GOING ON IS THAT HE IS PREPARED TO SUFFER THOSE HUMILIATIONS... IN ORDER TO FOCUS ON THE CONTENT. IF HE COMES OUT WITH A DEAL WHERE NATIONAL MAINTAINS CONTROL OF FISCAL POLICY, OF TAX POLICY, THE BROADER DIRECTION OF FOREIGN POLICY, THE APPOINTMENT OF JUDGES, CONTROLS AUDITOR GENERAL'S OFFICE, STATE` PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION, SFO, AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, AND DOESN'T UNRAVEL THE TREATY OF WAITANGI SETTLEMENT PROCESS, WHICH NATIONAL HAS LEAD FOR 30 YEARS, THEN HUMILIATIONS WILL HAVE BEEN WORTH IT. AND HE WOULD MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT TO SUFFER THOSE HUMILIATIONS IN EXCHANGE FOR GOOD POLICY. AND IN THE END, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY... HE WON'T PERHAPS SELL IT AS BEING HUMILIATING. THIS IS A PART OF POLITICS. IT IS PART OF COALITION DEALS. HE'S TALKED ABOUT HIS MERGERS AND ACQUISITIONS EXPERIENCE, BUT COALITION BUILDING IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, ISN'T IT? WELL, IT IS BECAUSE IT'S THE BIG PARTY THAT MUST CLOSE. IF YOU ARE UNILEVER BUYING A COUPLE OF SMALL COMPANIES, UNILEVER COULD WALK AWAY, AS HE DID IN THE VIRGIN AUSTRALIA DEAL. BUT YOU CAN'T. THIS WOULD BE LIKE IF THOSE SMALL PARTIES DON'T AGREE TO MERGE WITH YOU, THEN UNILEVER GOES BROKE. (LAUGHS) THE DYNAMICS ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, AND I'M NOT SURE HE UNDERSTOOD THAT, BECAUSE REMEMBER, HE LEFT NEW ZEALAND IN 1995 BEFORE THE FIRST MMP ELECTION. HE DIDN'T COME BACK UNTIL JOHN KEY WAS PRIME MINISTER. HE DIDN'T SEE THE '96 SITUATION OR THE 2005 SITUATION, AND DIDN'T THINK HE THOUGHT THROUGH THAT IT WAS HE WHO WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAD TO DO THE DEAL. WINSTON PETERS AND DAVID SEYMOUR COULD STILL WALK AWAY. ABSOLUTELY. IT LOOKS LIKE IT HAS BEEN A TOUGH PROCESS GOING ON BEHIND THOSE FOUR WALLS. IT IS A TOUGH SPOT CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS IN, PARTICULARLY WITH THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX, BECAUSE NATIONAL DID NOT FACTOR WORKING WITH WINSTON PETERS IN THEIR FOREIGN POLICY DEVELOPMENT, AND YET HERE HE IS AT THE TABLE. THERE WAS NO RISK ANALYSIS FOR THAT, NO PLAN B. I ACTUALLY THINK, TO BE FAIR TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON... (CHUCKLES) I THINK IT IS IN HIS ADVANTAGE THE WAY IT HAS TURNED OUT, BECAUSE THAT WAS A RIDICULOUS POLICY. IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT INDUSTRY, SKYCITY CASINO. IT DIDN'T` EVERY ECONOMIST CRITICISED IT. IT WAS NOT FULLY-FUNDED. NATIONAL SAYS ITS TEAM CAME UP WITH IT, BUT IT WAS WIDELY CRITICISED. IT WAS GOING TO BE HIGHLY INFLATIONARY, INTRODUCE $20-SOMETHING BILLION OF EXTRA DEMAND INTO OUR ECONOMY, WHICH IS WHY ACT OPPOSED IT. NEW ZEALAND FIRST CAN'T ALLOW THAT BAN TO BE LIFTED. AND... I THINK HE GETS TO AVOID IT, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TERRIBLY INFLATIONARY, AND WOULD HAVE DONE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE AND RAISED IN INTEREST RATES, AND NOW HE'S GOT AN EXCUSE FOR IT NOT TO GO AHEAD. THOSE WERE ALWAYS THE RISKS, WEREN'T THEY? MAYBE WE WILL NEVER KNOW IF IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL, IF IT IS AXED. HE COULD CLAIM THAT, I SUPPOSE. WINSTON PETERS IS A STRONG HAND WALKING INTO NEGOTIATIONS. HIS PLAN B WOULD HAVE BEEN TO SIT ON THE CROSSBENCHES AND KILL THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX FROM THERE. SO HE HAD A VERY STRONG HAND WALKING INTO THAT ROOM, EVEN THOUGH HE ONLY HAS 6% OF THE VOTE. THAT'S RIGHT. ALL THREE HAVE TO AGREE. DAVID SEYMOUR HAS MADE OVER AND OVER AGAIN THE POINT. HE'S DONE... I THINK IN THE ABSENCE OF THE INCOMING PRIME MINISTER GIVING DAILY UPDATES, DAVID SEYMOUR HAS STEPPED INTO THAT ROLE. AS HE SAYS, ALL THREE ARE REQUIRED TO AGREE. THERE IS NO WAY THEY WERE GOING TO AGREE ON THE NATIONAL TAX POLICY. WAS THAT A MISSTEP BY CHRISTOPHER LUXON TO SAY, 'WE WERE TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY'? HE HAD BEEN UNIMPRESSED BY PREVIOUS COALITION DEALS, AND IT WAS BEING DONE VERY MUCH SORT OF IN SECRET. THEY WERE TRYING TO ACTIVELY HIDE AT THE OUTSET OF NEGOTIATIONS. BUT DAVID SEYMOUR HAS BEEN PRETTY OPEN THROUGH THIS PROCESS TO THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC ABOUT WHERE THEY ARE AT, WITHOUT REVEALING CONFIDENTIAL DETAILS. WELL, THIS HAS BEEN QUITE LEAKY. IN THE PAST... I DON'T REMEMBER ANY LEAKS IN 1996, WHICH WAS THE FIRST I OBSERVED. THIS HAS LEAKED` ONE PARTY BASICALLY BRIEFS THE MEDIA OFF THE RECORD EVERY EVENING, AFTER THEY'VE JUST LEFT, AND ANOTHER DOES SOMETHING SIMILAR. IT HAS BEEN MORE LEAKY THAN MOST COALITION NEGOTIATIONS, EVEN THOUGH CHRISTOPHER LUXON WANTED IT TO BE MORE SECRET. I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY CALL. HE ESSENTIALLY CRITICISED JIM BOLGER, HELEN CLARK... JOHN KEY, BILL ENGLISH, AND JACINDA ARDERN FOR HOW THEY HAD CONDUCTED COALITION TALKS OVER THE LAST QUARTER CENTURY, AND SAID HE HAD A BETTER WAY. WELL, AS IT'S TURNED OUT, UNLESS THIS IS PART OF THE STRATEGY THAT HE LEARNT WE HEARD, IN BUSINESS, IT HAS TAKEN LONGER THAN ANY NEGOTIATIONS SINCE THOSE FIRST ONES IN 1996 WHEN NO ONE KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. WHERE POOR OLD NATIONAL AND LABOUR HAD THE ALLIANCE, AND ACT, AND HAD PETERS, AND IT WAS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED. BUT PRESUMABLY... HE HAS MADE SURE BY STRETCHING THEM OUT, THAT HE IS NOT CONCEDING THINGS TO THESE VERY SMALL PARTIES, WHICH SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI OR CONTROL THE SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE OR APPOINT JUDGES. THEY ARE NOT THE SORT OF THINGS THAT 6% PARTIES SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO. AND THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT FATAL... YOU KNOW, FIVE WEEKS IS NOT 15 WEEKS, BUT IT'S NOT FATAL FOR LUXON TO TAKE MORE TIME THEN HE THOUGHT IT MIGHT. DEPENDING ON THE DEAL. YES. IF WINSTON PETERS COMES OUT AS FOREIGN MINISTER, AND DAVID SEYMOUR AS TREASURER, AND WINSTON PETERS IS IN CHARGE OF THE SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE, THEN IT WOULD BE A DISASTER, BUT WE AREN'T THERE YET. HE HAS BEEN A PRETTY QUICK LEARNER. CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS INEXPERIENCED IN POLITICS, BUT HAS RISEN TO PRIME MINISTER ELECT VERY QUICKLY. HE IS A QUICK LEARNER WHEN IT COMES TO THE STUFF. OH, OK. (CHUCKLES) YOU DISAGREE? I DON'T SEE THAT. HE HAS CHANGED STRATEGY. HE HAS STARTED TO BRIEF THE MEDIA, JUST TO PROVIDE TO THOSE COMFORTING WORDS. I DON'T THINK THEY MEAN MUCH, BUT THE PUBLIC IS THINKING, 'WHAT IS GOING ON EARTH IS ON WITH OUR COUNTRY? 'WE'VE GOT WINSTON PETERS IN CHARGE AGAIN? 'WE HAVE THIS VERY RIGHT WING ACT PARTY INVOLVED.' THE PUBLIC WANT SOME COMFORT. FROM THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY, WHICH HE IS NOW. CHRIS HIPKINS IS FORMALLY PRIME MINSTER, BUT ON ELECTION NIGHT, HE HANDED THE STAGE TO CHRISTOPHER LUXON. CHRISTOPHER LUXON BECAME OUR LEADER, AND I THINK IT'S BETTER, THE WAY HE'S BEEN CONDUCTING THINGS IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, THAN OVER THE PREVIOUS FOUR-AND-A-BIT WEEKS. WELL, LET'S HOPE WE GET A DEAL, PERHAPS THIS WEEKEND. MATTHEW HOOTON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS. THANK YOU. PLEASURE. AFTER THE BREAK, ANOTHER CONTROVERSIAL POLICY THAT COULD BE DEAD ` ACT'S TREATY REFERENDUM. THAT'S NEXT. PLUS ` THEY'RE STILL VOTING IN PORT WAIKATO. WE JOIN THE CANDIDATES ON A MARATHON OF A CAMPAIGN. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES ACT CAMPAIGNED ON WAS ITS POLICY FOR A REFERENDUM ON THE PRINCIPLES OF TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. NATIONAL HAS SAID A REFERENDUM WOULD BE 'DIVISIVE AND UNHELPFUL' AND THAT IT WOULDN'T BE PART OF COALITION NEGOTIATIONS, BUT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. SO HOW DO ACT'S PROPOSED TREATY PRINCIPLES DIFFER AND WHAT EFFECT COULD A RE-WRITE HAVE? LADY TUREITI MOXON IS A LAWYER AND MAORI HEALTH ADVOCATE WHO ALSO CHAIRS THE NATIONAL URBAN MAORI AUTHORITY. TENA KOE. TENA KOE. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. LET'S GO THROUGH ACT'S PROPOSED PRINCIPLES. NUMBER ONE, ALL CITIZENS OF NEW ZEALAND HAVE THE SAME POLITICAL RIGHTS; ALL POLITICAL AUTHORITY COMES FROM PEOPLE WITH DEMOCRATIC MEANS, INCLUDING UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE; AND NEW ZEALAND IS A MULTI-ETHNIC LIBERAL DEMOCRACY WHERE DISCRIMINATION BASED ON ETHNICITY IS ILLEGAL. HOW WIDELY DO THESE PROPOSED PRINCIPLES DIFFER FROM THE EXISTING INTERPRETATION? RIGHT NOW WE HAVE THE THREE Ts ` PARTNERSHIP, PARTICIPATION AND PROTECTION. THOSE ARE THE PRINCIPLES THAT CAME OUT OF THE LANDS CLAIM IN 1987. SO THEY'VE BEEN DEVELOPED A LONG TIME. THAT'S RIGHT. SINCE THEN WE HAVE HAD THE WAI 2575 CLAIM, THE HAUORA CLAIM, AND THEY ADDED MORE TO THAT, WHICH IS EQUITY OPTIONS AND THE GUARANTEE OF RANGATIRATANGA. ARE ANY OF THOSE COVERED BY WHAT ACT IS PROPOSING? NO. WHAT ABOUT PARTICIPATION? THEY'RE SAYING EVERYONE HAS DEMOCRATIC MEANS TO TAKE PART. DOES THAT NOT REASSURE YOU? IN ACTUAL FACT, A LOT OF THE POLICIES AND ACTS WE HAVE HAD IN LEGISLATION HAVE BEEN VERY DETRIMENTAL TO MAORI, AND IT HAS ALWAYS SUPPORTED THE STATUS QUO. WHAT WE'RE SAYING HERE IS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, WE ARE SAYING VERY CLEARLY TO EVERYONE THAT WE HAVE A TREATY PARTNERSHIP HERE IN AOTEAROA, AND WE NEED TO BE BRINGING EVERYONE TOGETHER TO SEE WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FORWARD FOR US ALL. I GUESS WHAT ACT HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO ` THESE TREATY INTERPRETATIONS HAVE BEEN EVOLVING UNDER LAW SINCE THE LANDS CASE. WOULD DEFINING THESE PRINCIPLES GIVE MORE CLARITY FOR WHEN THEY ARE APPLIED? IT'S THE PARLIAMENT TO CREATE THE LAWS, IT IS THEIR COURT TO INTERPRET THE LAWS, AND THE POLICE TO ENFORCE THE LAWS. SO WHAT DO WE NEED HERE? WE HAVE OUR WAITANGI TRIBUNAL THAT HAVE JURISDICTION TO HEAR BREACHES OF TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE 1975. WHAT WE NEED ISN'T ANOTHER REFERENDUM OR A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT TE TIRITI JURISPRUDENCE MEANS. WE NEED TO BE LISTENING TO EXPERTS WITHIN THE TREATY, AND LISTENING TO EXPERTS WITHIN OUR COURT SYSTEM. I UNDERSTAND THAT. I UNDERSTAND YOU BELIEVE THAT JURISPRUDENCE AND THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM HAS BEEN DEFINING THEM OVER TIME. DAME ANNE SALMOND HAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ON THIS, AND SAID ACT'S PROPOSAL IS UNFAIR AND CORROSIVE, BUT SHE SAYS THERE IS ROOM FOR INQUIRY INTO RECENT INTERPRETATION OF THE TREATY. DO YOU SEE ANY MERIT IN THAT? WHAT I SEE IS THAT MAORI HAVE TO BE AT THE TABLE WHEN THEY DISCUSS THIS AND WHEN THEY WORK THROUGH WHAT THAT MEANS. THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL, WHO ARE THE EXPERTS, NEED TO BE AT THE TABLE. WE HAVE HAD THE ELLIS CASE, WHICH DEMONSTRATED THAT TIKANGA WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR LAWS IN OUR COUNTRY, AND PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF TE TIRITI. DO YOU FEAR THIS COULD RIP US DOWN THE MIDDLE? DO YOU HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THIS REFERENDUM IF IT WERE TO COME INTO FORCE? I DON'T THINK IT IS NECESSARY AND WE HAVE ENOUGH EXPERTISE AND KNOWLEDGE TO WORK TOGETHER TO BRING ABOUT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE REQUIRED AND NEEDED FOR BOTH PARTNERS. THIS IS A PARTNERSHIP UNDER TE TIRITI. THIS INTERPRETATION DOES NOT MENTION PARTNERSHIP AT ALL. IT MAY BE IN THE ACTIONS OF THE INCOMING GOVERNMENT AS WELL. IN TERMS OF THE HEALTH AREA, THEY ARE PLANNING TO SCRAP TE AKA WHAI ORA, THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. THAT PARTNERSHIP MAY DISAPPEAR. HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF OVER AND OVER. WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS IS THEY USE TE TIRITI AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL, AND MAORI OR 'RACE-BASED POLICIES' AS A POLITICAL FOOTBALL TO WHAKAMANA THEMSELVES TO CREATE A DIVISION IN SOCIETY THAT IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. WHAT DO YOU FEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT TE AKA WHAI ORA MAY BE SCRAPPED? WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT SINCE 2008 TO CHANGE THE WAY THE HEALTH SYSTEM HAS BEEN RESPONDING TO MAORI, PARTICULARLY GIVEN WE ARE THE POOREST OF ALL THE GROUPS OF ETHNICITIES IN THIS COUNTRY, THE SICKEST IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE THE LEAST EDUCATED, AND IT GOES ON AND ON. NOBODY DISPUTES THOSE STATS, BUT THE WAY TO MAKE THEM EVEN OR EQUAL, OR EQUITABLE, IS THE WAY FORWARD, AND ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS IDEA ABOUT EQUALITY DOESN'T ACTUALLY MEAN EQUITY? NO, IT DOESN'T. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO GO BACK TO. WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS THAT WE ARE ALL EQUAL AND ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD; WE ALL HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES. WE KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE. THE INEQUITIES IN THIS COUNTRY ARE STIFLING. THE RACISM IN OUR COUNTRY IS STIFLING. IT CONTINUES AND NEVER EVER STOPS. IF YOU HAD ONE CHANCE TO GIVE A MESSAGE TO THOSE THREE MEN AROUND THE NEGOTIATION TABLE, WHAT WOULD IT BE? MAORI NEED TO BE AT THE TABLE, BECAUSE WE ARE A PARTNER UNDER TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE AND THAT'S WHAT WE'LL ALWAYS BE. IT IS THE FOUNDATION DOCUMENT OF THIS COUNTRY, IT MEANS AND IS THE REASON WHY WE ARE HERE TOGETHER IN AOTEAROA. LADY TUREITI MOXON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. TENA KOE. KIA ORA. SO MUCH TO DISCUSS THIS WEEK, DESPITE BEING WITHOUT A GOVERNMENT. WITH ME IS JOURNALIST AND COMMENTATOR CARMEN PARAHI AND BEN THOMAS, WHO HAS WORKED FOR NATIONAL AND NOW WORKS FOR CAPITAL IN PR. GOOD MORNING TO YOU BOTH. MORENA. MORENA. I WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT DISCUSSION. WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT COALITION TALKS EARLIER IN THE PROGRAMME. IT LOOKS LIKE DAVID SEYMOUR IS CLOSE TO GETTING A DEAL, BUT SOME SPECULATION IS COMING OUT AROUND THAT HIS REFERENDUM ON DEFINING THE TREATY OF WAITANGI PRINCIPLES IS NOT` HE'S NOT GOING TO GET THAT. THE QUESTION IS WHAT REPLACES THAT. WHAT ARE YOU HEARING, CARMEN? WHAT WE COULD REPLACE IT WITH IS A BIT OF PUBLIC EDUCATION. NON-MAORI AND MAORI ARE ACTUALLY IGNORANT ABOUT WHAT IS TE TIRITI, HOW DO WE MAKE IT WORK, WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF IT; HOW DID IT BECOME PART OF OUR LAW. THOSE PRINCIPLES WERE PURPOSEFULLY KEPT QUITE LOOSE AND ABLE TO BE ADAPTED OVER TIME, THROUGH ALL OF OUR LEGISLATION AND THROUGH HOW THE COURTS LOOK AT THEM. THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ARGUMENTS AMONGST ACADEMICS AND EXPERTS AROUND IT. NEW ZEALAND IS ACTUALLY IGNORANT AROUND HOW THE TREATY WORKS AND HOW IT SHOULD WORK, BUT WE SHOULD BE IN CONTROL OF HOW WE WANT IT TO WORK. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT REFERENDUM, BECAUSE IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE PLATFORM OF DISCRIMINATION. THEY TALK ABOUT DISCRIMINATION; THAT MAORI SHOULD NOT GET ALL THESE RIGHTS, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE CURRENT SYSTEMS ARE DISCRIMINATORY AGAINST MAORI, AND DISCRIMINATE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE IN OUR LOW SOCIO-ECONOMIC GROUPS. THIS IDEA OF DISCRIMINATION IS COMING FROM A PAKEHA PERSPECTIVE, AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE MANA AND WEALTH. IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WEALTH AND PRIVILEGE WHO DETERMINE THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING DISCRIMINATORY IN OUR PRACTICES AND POLICIES. IT IS JUST NOT TRUE. THERE NEEDS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE DISCRIMINATION THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS IN ALL THE SYSTEMS THAT GOVERN AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND. THIS IS A DISCUSSION WE HAVE TO HAVE AS A COUNTRY. WHAT DO YOU SEE` WHAT ACT WANTS IS A MASSIVE DEPARTURE FROM HOW THE TREATY HAS EVOLVED OVER TIME IN LAW. IT IS COMPLETELY AHISTORICAL. IT DOESN'T REFLECT AT ALL ANY CONCEPTION OF WHAT THE TREATY WOULD HAVE MEANT TO THE PEOPLE SIGNING IT OR HOW THE PRINCIPLES HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED, OR HOW WE HAVE LIVED WITH IT. IT IS AN ATTEMPT TO REWRITE THE TREATY AS YOU WOULD WANT IT AS A LIBERTARIAN CLASSICAL LIBERAL PARTY. THAT IS NOT WHAT THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY ARE. DUE TO THAT JURISPRUDENCE THERE IS A LOT OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. IT IS BAD POLICY AND BAD POLITICS. THIS WOULD SWALLOW UP THE FIRST THREE YEARS OF THIS GOVERNMENT FOR VERY LITTLE GAIN. THAT IS NOT TO SAY THERE AREN'T THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. WE TALK ABOUT THE PETER ELLIS CASE ` COURTS ARE MEANT TO DECIDE THE CASE IN FRONT OF THEM, AND INSTEAD WE HAD THE SUPREME COURT THINKING OUT LOUD ABOUT THE APPLICATION OF TIKANGA TO A DEAD PAKEHA MAN WHO DID NOT AT ALL ADHERE TO PRINCIPLES OF TIKANGA IN HIS OWN LIFE, AS A WAY OF THINKING OUT LOUD ABOUT THOSE TOPICS. A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE SYMPATHETIC TO THE IDEA THAT THERE DOES NEED TO BE REINING IN OF THE JUDICIAL ACTIVISM THAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS SPACE, AND THAT IS SOMEWHERE WHERE ACT AND NATIONAL AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST COULD MUCH MORE PROFITABLY SPENT THEIR TIME. ALSO, HOW EXPENSIVE IS IT GOING TO BE? HOW DO YOU DRAW IT OUT` IF THIS REFERENDUM GOES AHEAD, AND WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN REFERENDUMS ` IT IS PEOPLE WHO ALWAYS VOTE WHO GET WHAT THEY WANT. WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT THE END RESULT OF A REFERENDUM WILL BE, NO MATTER WHAT THE QUESTIONS ARE AND HOW DIVISIVE IT GETS, GETTING TO THE POINT OF A REFERENDUM, IF WE DO ` AS THE EXPERTS HAVE ALREADY SAID, IT IS A WASTE OF TIME AND A POLICY THAT DOES NOT NEED TO EXIST, BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED. HOW EXPENSIVE WILL IT BE? HOW DO YOU DRAW OUT ALL OF THAT LAW OUT OF OUR COURT SYSTEM AND LEGAL SYSTEM ` OUR BUSINESSES USE PRINCIPLES; IT IS EVERYWHERE. WE ARE PAST THAT POINT. WE NEED TO HAVE MUCH MORE MATURE NATIONAL CONVERSATIONS AROUND TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. AND NATIONAL ` IT IS ONE OF THEIR VALUES THAT THE TREATY OF WAITANGI IS A FOUNDATIONAL DOCUMENT OF NEW ZEALAND. IT IS IN THEIR VALUES. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THEY DON'T JUST PAY LIP SERVICE TO THAT. IF THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT BEING GOOD TREATY PARTNERS, IT SHOULD NOT JUST BE WAIATA PRACTICE AND TE REO LESSONS AT LUNCHTIME. A KARAKIA TO START THE MEETING. A $40,000 POWHIRI FOR YOUR OWN STAFF MEMBERS. THAT DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY; IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT HELP MAORI. THAT PART OF THE GOVERNMENT CULTURE HAS GOTTEN OUT OF CONTROL. THAT IS SOMETHING THEY CAN CHANGE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT. THERE IS AN ARGUMENT FOR EQUITY. YOU HAVE TO DO MORE TO GET EQUALITY. AT SOME POINT, IF WE HAD ADHERED TO THE TREATY RIGHT FROM THE START, THE WAY MAORI HAD SEEN IT IN THE TE REO MAORI VERSION OF THE TREATY, HOW WE ARE NOW, SEEING NON-MAORI USING MORE TE REO MAORI, USING KARAKIA, DOING WAIATA AND HAKA ALL OVER THE WORLD; ALL OF THESE THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF OUR CULTURE MORE BACK THEN, RATHER THAN NOW. MORE AND MORE WE ARE SEEING ALL NEW ZEALANDERS EMBRACE TE REO MAORI AND CULTURAL PRACTICES OF MAORIDOM, WHICH BELONG TO THIS COUNTRY, THIS LAND, AND EVERYONE WHO ARE PART OF THIS LAND. I WILL SWITCH OVER TO NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND NATIONAL. AS WE HEARD AT THE START OF THE SHOW, THERE IS A BATTLE OF WILLS TAKING PLACE BETWEEN CHRISTOPHER LUXON AND WINSTON PETERS, PARTICULARLY OVER THE FOREIGN BUYERS TAX. IS THERE AN ELEGANT WAY OUT OF THIS FOR EITHER MAN, OR WILL SOMEONE HAVE TO SWALLOW THE DEAD TAX RAT? I THOUGHT THIS WOULD PROVIDE AN ELEGANT WAY OUT FOR CHRISTOPHER LUXON. THERE HAS BEEN SPECULATION OVER WHETHER THAT FOREIGN BUYERS TAX ` I THINK MOST PEOPLE ACCEPTED IT IN THE FIRST YEAR BECAUSE OF PENT-UP DEMAND; BECAUSE OF THE FOREIGN BUYER BAN YOU MIGHT KIND OF HIT THOSE TARGETS. BUT A LOT OF DOUBTS. IN THE FUTURE, IF THEY ASSUME THE TREASURY BENCHES FOR THE MINI BUDGET, WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN SCALED DOWN IN EXPECTATIONS NOW; WE ARE NOW CLOSER TO SOMETHING LIKE AN UPDATE OR ANNOUNCEMENT ` BUT IF THEY WANT TO BOOK THAT INCOME FROM THAT PROPOSED TAX, THEY HAVE TO GET IT PAST TREASURY. THAT WILL BE MUCH HARDER THAN THE BULLET TRAIN APPROACH THAT WAS TAKEN DURING THE ELECTION OF SAYING 'IT'S A GOOD TAX PACKAGE.' I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT USING THE COALITION AGREEMENTS, USING THE PARLIAMENT THAT VOTERS DELIVERED AS A REASON TO COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE WAS A GOOD OPTION. LUXON AND PETERS ONLY HAVE TO PICK UP THE PHONE ` DAVID SEYMOUR HAS A HUGE LIST OF WAYS YOU CAN SAVE MONEY AS A GOVERNMENT. HE NEEDS TO GET HIS GOVERNMENT SORTED OUT, BUT HE ALSO DOESN'T NEED TO BE DESPERATE. ONE THING YOU LEARN IN BUSINESS WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO FILL POSITIONS AND DO GOOD WORK, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN PLACE AND THE RIGHT POLICIES AND OUTCOMES IN PLACE. AS FAR AS EVERYONE SAYING 'HURRY UP' ` WE KNOW WHO THE PRIME MINISTER IS; THOSE OTHER MINISTERS WILL COME IN TIME, BUT THEY NEED TO GET THOSE` THEY PROMISED US TAX CUTS AND MORE REVENUE THROUGH TAX ` THEY HAVE GOT TO DELIVER ON THOSE. THERE ARE OTHER IMPORTANT THINGS, LIKE BUSINESS CONFIDENCE, CONFIDENCE IN THE ECONOMY. AND NATIONAL WAS VOTED IN BECAUSE WE ALL THINK THEY ARE THE ONES TO TAKE CARE OF US WHEN IT COMES TO ECONOMIC ISSUES. THEY NEED TO MAKE THAT OUR FOCUS, BECAUSE RETAIL SPEND` IT IS DIRE OUT THERE. AND BEING AT STUFF AND BEING IN OUR BUSINESS AND SEEING THE MEDIA INDUSTRY, IT IS SO MUCH HARD WORK. THERE IS NOT A LOT OF MONEY AROUND, AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO STIMULATE OUR ECONOMY? HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HELP THOSE THAT HAVE TWO INCOMES BUT ARE RIGHT ON THE BREADLINE? IT IS THOSE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS. IN THE FIRST THREE YEARS, FOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT WILL HELP THE ECONOMY AND HELP ALL OF US TO GET PAST THIS DIFFICULTY WHICH IS POST-COVID AND EVERYTHING ELSE. I JUST WISH THEM LUCK. IT IS THE CONFIDENCE. WE HAVE SEEN SOME RISES IN CONFIDENCE IN THE NEW GOVERNMENT. WE JUST NEED THEM TO CONTINUE TO BUILD THAT. IF THEY DON'T PUT THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN THE RIGHT PLACES WITH THE RIGHT POLICIES, WE WILL LOSE THAT. SOMEONE WHO TURNED UP THIS WEEK WHICH MADE ME THINK THIS IS A PRETTY SPRAWLING CLUSTER IS DAMIEN O'CONNOR AT APEC, BEHIND JUSTIN TRUDEAU, JOE BIDEN AND XI JINPING. HE IS HAVING THE TIME OF HIS LIFE. BUT WE HAVE GOT TO GET ON WITH IT. IT IS A WEIRD WORLD WE ARE LIVING IN, ISN'T IT, BEN? I THINK DELAY IS THE FRIEND OF THE SMALLER PARTIES. WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF THESE SOFTER DEADLINES LIKE APEC WHIZ BY. WINSTON PETERS DOESN'T MIND TURNING UP TO THE PULLMAN EVERY DAY, OR NOT ` OR TURNING UP TO A DIFFERENT CITY. AND THE PRESSURE GOES ON. THE MINI BUDGET HAS NOW BEEN SCALED BACK. THERE IS NO TIME BEFORE CHRISTMAS. SO PART OF THIS WILL SHADE INTO TACTICS, BUT I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT THE PUBLIC PRONOUNCEMENTS AND THE TALK ABOUT WHO WAS IN WHAT ROOM AND HOW MANY TIMES THEY HAVE MET; IT IS NOT DETERMINATIVE OF HOW THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE GOING. THIS IS ALL BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH SOME UPDATES. I THINK WE CAN PROBABLY EXPECT SOMETHING SOON. WONDERFUL. THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING. HOPEFULLY WE WILL HAVE A GOVERNMENT TO DISCUSS SOON. A MURI AKE NEI ` WE MEET ANOTHER NEW MP ON BACKSTORY. PLUS ` SIMON IS BACK ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN PORT WAIKATO. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. IF IT SEEMS LIKE THE COALITION TALKS ARE DRAGGING ON SPARE A THOUGHT FOR THE VOTERS AND CANDIDATES OVER IN PORT WAIKATO. THE DEATH OF A CANDIDATE MEANS THE INITIAL VOTE WAS SCRAPPED, AND THE CAMPAIGN IS BACK ON. IT'S LONG BEEN A NATIONAL PARTY STRONGHOLD, BUT A RISING STAR IN NEW ZEALAND FIRST IS KEEN TO SOAK UP SOME OF THE SPOTLIGHT AND PINCH SOME VOTES. 20, 20, 20, BIDDING AT 20... THE TUAKAU SALEYARDS ` PLENTY OF KILOS OF PRIME DAIRY AND BEEF UP FOR GRABS, AND MAYBE A FEW VOTES FOR NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S CASEY COSTELLO. I SEE YOUR PHOTO ON THE... OH YEAH, IT'S EVERYWHERE. I'M SICK OF MY FACE. (BOTH LAUGH) COSTELLO'S A LOCAL, BUT A NEW POLITICAL FACE, SUDDENLY BOOSTED TO NUMBER THREE ON THE LIST, RIGHT AFTER WINSTON PETERS AND SHANE JONES. HOW'S THAT POSSIBLE? LAUGHS: YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. PEOPLE WILL BE WONDERING WHO YOU ARE. I SUPPOSE I'VE BEEN ON THE PERIPHERY OF A LOT OF DIFFERENT ISSUES WITH TAXPAYERS UNION, HOBSON'S PLEDGE, THOSE SORT OF THINGS. SO I'VE KIND OF BEEN ON THE` IN THE LOBBYING ENVIRONMENT, I SUPPOSE, BEHIND THE SCENES. YEAH, I'LL BE AROUND. NOW SHE IS FRONT AND CENTRE, AND STRAIGHT INTO PARLIAMENT. SO WHY IS SHE STANDING FOR PORT WAIKATO? IT'S REALLY SIMPLE. THIS IS MY TOWN, YOU KNOW, AND I JUST THINK` I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE KNOW THAT I'M HERE, THAT I'M PART OF THIS COMMUNITY, THAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE THINGS GETTING MOVING. ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT SHE IS RUNNING HERE? I AM A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED. IT'S A VERY EXPENSIVE CAMPAIGN, AND SHE'S A NEW CANDIDATE, OBVIOUSLY. BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE A CHOICE. NATIONAL'S ANDREW BAYLY HAS WON PORT WAIKATO FOUR TIMES, BUT THIS CAMPAIGN IS DIFFERENT. HOW YOU GOING? VERY WELL, THANK YOU. ANDREW BAYLY. YES. IN THE LEAD-UP TO THE OCTOBER 14 ELECTION DAY, ACT'S PORT WAIKATO CANDIDATE, NEIL CHRISTENSEN, SUDDENLY DIED, SO THE CANDIDATE VOTE WAS ABANDONED AND A BY-ELECTION SET DOWN FOR NOVEMBER 25TH. WHEN WE VOTED ON THE FIRST DAY, AND IT DOESN'T COUNT... YEAH. WELL, IT'S NULL AND VOID. YEAH, WELL, THAT PART WAS NULL AND VOID. THAT'S WHY WE'VE GOT THE BY-ELECTION. YEAH, WELL, THAT'S WHY WE SHOULD BE VOTING AGAIN FOR... NO, BECAUSE THEY STILL COUNTED ALL THE PARTY VOTES. SECOND TIME AROUND, THERE ARE PLENTY OF FRINGE PARTIES STANDING CANDIDATES, INCLUDING NEW ZEAL, NZ LOYAL, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, AND ANIMAL JUSTICE. BUT ACT, THE GREENS, AND LABOUR HAVEN'T BOTHERED, AND NEITHER WILL SOME VOTERS. IT'S A DONE DEAL. THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING WHEN THEY COME IN ` THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO BOTHER. SO YOU'RE A PORT WAIKATO LOCAL. YEAH. AND YOU VOTED IN THE FIRST ROUND OF THE ELECTIONS. YEAH. AND WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT YOU HAVE TO VOTE AGAIN? RIDICULOUS. YEAH, BLOODY RIDICULOUS. ARE YOU AFRAID THAT PEOPLE WON'T TURN OUT BECAUSE IT IS THE SECOND TIME AROUND? YEAH, LOOK, I CERTAINLY WAS INITIALLY WHEN I WAS STANDING ON THE DOORSTEPS OF PEOPLE, AND THEY WERE SAYING, 'LOOK, ANDREW, WE VOTED FOR YOU, DIDN'T WE?' 'TICK BAYLY TODAY.' ISN'T THAT BEAUTIFUL? IT MEANS HE'S BEEN CAMPAIGNING FOR THREE MONTHS AND HAS EVEN DRAGGED IN A FORMER NATIONAL PARTY LEADER TO FRESHEN UP THE HOARDINGS. DO YOU MISS IT? (LAUGHS) NO. DON'T WANT TO BE OUT DOING THE HOARDINGS AGAIN? NO, I DO NOT. IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT FEELING WHEN YOU'RE JUST TURNING UP HELPING WITH A FEW SCREWS AND A BOARD. BUT, NO, NOT AT ALL. PORT WAIKATO'S AN INTERESTING ELECTORATE. ITS FAMOUSLY FERTILE VOLCANIC SOILS AROUND PUKEKOHE MADE IT THE FOOD BASKET FOR AUCKLAND, BUT EXPANSION OF THE SUPER CITY MEANS IT'S BECOME THE RURAL-URBAN DIVIDE. POPULATION GROWTH HERE HAS BEEN OUTSTRIPPING THE NEW ZEALAND AVERAGE, GETTING UP TO ABOUT 3% A YEAR, AND IT'S ALSO THE SECOND RICHEST ELECTORATE WHEN YOU MEASURE FAMILY INCOMES BETWEEN $100,000 AND $150,000 A YEAR. THIS ALL GOES TO SHOW, 3 O'CLOCK, PUKEKOHE MAIN STREET, IT'S HARD TO GET A PARK. THAT DOESN'T MEAN COST OF LIVING ISN'T AN ISSUE. PEOPLE AREN'T SPENDING AT THE MOMENT. NO, THEY'RE NOT SPENDING. LIKE, WE ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE DRIVE UP OUTSIDE AND DON'T COME IN. THEY'LL HAVE A LOOK AND DRIVE AWAY AGAIN. BUT THAT NEVER USED TO HAPPEN. BUT PORT WAIKATO IS A DIVERSE ELECTORATE FULL OF LOCAL ISSUES. I NEVER TALK ABOUT PUKEKOHE ISSUES IF I'M DOWN IN MARAMARUA, FOR INSTANCE. RIGHT, SO THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE HOUSING BEING BUILT IN PUKEKOHE AND POKENO AND THINGS? NO, NOT AT ALL. IT IS LOCAL, LOCAL, LOCAL. CASEY COSTELLO GREW UP IN POKENO, WORKED IN THE SOUTH AUCKLAND POLICE. SHE ALSO WHAKAPAPAS TO TWO CHIEFS WHO SIGNED TE TIRITI O WAITANGI. SO IT'S HER WORK AS A SPOKESPERSON FOR HOBSON'S PLEDGE THAT HAS SPARKED SOME CONTROVERSY ` AN ORGANISATION THAT LOBBIES AGAINST RACE-BASED POLICY AND FOR EQUALITY, BUT NOT EQUITY. DOES EQUALITY ACTUALLY MEAN EQUITY FOR IN TERMS OF SERVICE DELIVERY AND PEOPLE'S RIGHTS? I THINK THAT'S WHERE I GET A BIT CONFUSED, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT EQUITY OF OUTCOME. EQUITY OF OUTCOME HAS SO MANY VARIABLES. I MEAN, EQUITY OF OUTCOME RELIES ON YOUR INDIVIDUAL CAPABILITY. EQUITY OF OUTCOME RELIES ON YOUR DRIVE, YOUR DETERMINATION, WHAT YOU'RE INTERESTED IN. AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT EQUITY, WE'RE TRYING TO SAY, WELL, EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME. WELL, THAT'S JUST NOT` THAT'S UTOPIA. THAT DOESN'T EXIST. SO I JUST THINK WE'VE GOT TO SHIFT AWAY FROM THE EQUITY IDEA AND ACCEPT THAT WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS, THAT WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT OUTCOMES ` THAT'S THE NATURE OF A SOCIETY ` BUT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS MAKE SURE WE ARE SUPPORTING AND REPRESENTING THE MOST VULNERABLE AND MOST IN NEED, AND ENSURING THAT THE ESSENTIALS ARE BEING DELIVERED WHERE THEY NEED TO BE DELIVERED. BE IT ISSUES OF EQUALITY OR ROADING, CASEY COSTELLO'S CAMPAIGN FACES A MAMMOTH TASK. SHE MIGHT BE A RISING STAR, SHE MIGHT STEAL SOME VOTES, BUT PORT WAIKATO HAS ALWAYS BEEN A NATIONAL STRONGHOLD. THEY HAVE TO VOTE ON NOVEMBER 25. E WHAI AKE NEI ` THE PRIME MINISTER ELECT HAS ARRIVED AT TODAY'S COALITION NEGOTIATIONS AT THE CORDIS IN AUCKLAND. AND WE WILL TAKE YOU THERE. AND THE NEW MP WHO YOU MIGHT JUST REMEMBER PARTYING HARD IN A VIRAL TV AD. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, WHERE WE GET TO KNOW OUR POLITICIANS A LITTLE BETTER. RIGHT NOW OF COURSE, PARLIAMENT IS CHOCK-FULL OF FRESH FACES, AND ONE OF THOSE IS KAHURANGI CARTER. CARTER WON HER SEAT ON THE SPECIAL VOTES, MAKING HER ONE OF OUR VERY NEWEST MPS. WE CAUGHT UP WITH HER AT HOME IN AN ICONIC HOUSING COLLECTIVE IN OTAUTAHI CHRISTCHURCH. KIA ORA, KO KAHURANGI TAKU INGOA, TE URI AHAU O RANGINUI RAUA KO PAPATUANUKU. NO NGATI MANIAPOTO NO TAINUI AHAU. MY MUM RAISED MY SIBLINGS AND I IN A SMALL FARMING COMMUNITY IN THE WAIKATO. WE WERE REALLY RICH IN WHANAU, AND I JUST REMEMBER BEING AROUND LOTS OF KIDS, MY COUSINS, AND GOING ON ADVENTURES. I'M THE ELDEST OF SIX KIDS. WE WERE REALLY LUCKY TO HAVE A LOT OF SUPPORT IN OUR LIVES, WHETHER THAT WAS TEACHERS, COACHES, WHANAU, WHICH MEANT THAT WE COULD BE THE BEST VERSIONS OF OURSELVES. EVERYONE WAS ALWAYS WELCOME IN OUR HOME AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I'VE REALLY TRIED TO CONTINUE IN MY LIFE. MY MUM IS A REALLY EARTHY PERSON ` WOULD TAKE US TO TREE PLANTING AND WOULD MAKE US PICK UP RUBBISH BY THE SIDE OF THE RIVER AND ALWAYS LEAVE A PLACE BETTER THAN WE FOUND IT. WHEN WE WERE HAVING A MOMENT AS KIDS, SHE WOULD ALWAYS SAY 'GO OUTSIDE, STAND IN THE GRASS 'AND RECONNECT WITH NATURE.' AND I GUESS THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I DO WITH MY CHILDREN AS WELL. LIKE, 'YOU'RE BEING HOHA. GO STAND OUTSIDE AND REGROUND YOURSELF 'WITH THE EARTH.' AT SCHOOL, I GUESS I WASN'T THE MOST ACADEMIC PERSON, BUT I WAS A BIT OF A JOCK. I PLAYED LOTS OF SPORTS, WHICH IS FUNNY, BECAUSE I'M NOT THE MOST COMPETITIVE PERSON. I DIDN'T WIN, LIKE, ANY ACADEMIC AWARDS OR SPORTING AWARDS, BUT I DID WIN SCHOOL SPIRIT, WHICH I THINK IS PROBABLY MORE TRUE TO MY NATURE. (LAUGHS) MUM WOULD JUST PACK US UP AND TAKE US FOR LONG DAYS AT THE BEACH. LOOK AT THIS. ISN'T THIS SO SWEET? MY BABY BROTHER THERE, JUST HANGING OUT IN THE SAND. LOOKS LIKE HE WAS EATING SOME AS WELL. (LAUGHS) I HAD MY KIDS IN MY EARLY 20s, AND I WAS ONE OF THOSE MUMS WHO TOOK MY TODDLERS TO SPLORE. (LAUGHS) I GUESS YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF ENERGY WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG. I WAS JUST READY TO BE A MUM. I LOVED HAVING KIDS WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, AND IT REALLY WORKED FOR ME. WE HAD FRIENDS AND WHANAU WHERE THE KIDS WERE ALWAYS WELCOME, NO MATTER WHERE WE WERE. YEAH, I WAS THAT MUM WHO TOOK MY TODDLERS TO SPLORE, BUT THEN I WAS ALSO THAT MUM THAT TOOK THEM BACK A MONTH LATER AND DID SOME TREE PLANTING ` PLANTING NATIVE TREES TO GIVE BACK TO THE PLACE THAT HAD GIVEN US SO MUCH AND SO MANY WONDERFUL MEMORIES. OH, THAT'S RHUBARB. WHEN MY KIDS WERE YOUNG, WE LIVED IN THE COUNTRY. I REALLY WANTED THEM TO GROW UP IN THE CITY AS WELL, HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE. AND WE LOVE CHRISTCHURCH. CHRISTCHURCH IS AN AMAZING CITY. MY SISTER'S HOUSE IS TWO MINUTES THAT WAY. MARGARET MAHY PLAYGROUND IS A FOUR MINUTE WALK THAT WAY, WHICH IS WHERE I LIKE TO TAKE MY BABY NIECE, AND MY KIDS CAN JUST WALK TO SCHOOL. WE ARE SO LUCKY THAT WE LIVE IN THIS BEAUTIFUL COMMUNITY IN THE CENTRE OF CHRISTCHURCH THAT WAS ACTUALLY FOUNDED BY ROD DONALD, WHO FOUNDED THE GREEN PARTY. SO I GET TO WAKE UP EVERY MORNING AND SEE ROD'S VISION IN REALITY, AND THAT IS JUST AN AMAZING THING TO EXPERIENCE. WE ALL HAVE OUR DIFFERENT ROLES THAT WE PLAY HERE IN THE COMMUNITY. WE DO AN HOUR OF SERVICE EACH WEEK. WE HAVE POTLUCK DINNER EACH WEEK WHERE WE GET TO HANG OUT AND HAVE A GOOD TIME TOGETHER, BUT IT ALSO MEANS THAT NEIGHBOURS CAN SUPPORT EACH OTHER WHEN YOU NEED IT. WHEN YOU LIVE HERE, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE RENTING, YOU HAVE A HOME FOR LIFE, SO YOU DON'T EVER HAVE TO MOVE OUT. YOU DON'T HAVE A FINISH DATE ON YOUR LEASE. AND THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THAT` AND BEING IN THIS SANCTUARY AND BEING ABLE TO CALL IT HOME, FEELING CONNECTED TO A PLACE AND TO PEOPLE. I AM SOMEONE WHO'S ALWAYS BEEN DRAWN TO ARTISTS AND ART. I LOVE THE WAY THAT ARTISTS TOUCH THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF PEOPLE, AND THAT THEY CAN BE A CATALYST FOR CHANGE. I ALSO AM ON THE BOARD OF ONE OF THE LOCAL ART GALLERIES HERE, THE PHYSICS ROOM CONTEMPORARY ART GALLERY. I FEEL LIKE ARTISTS GIVE ME SO MUCH. THAT'S WHY I WANTED TO GIVE BACK TO THE ART COMMUNITY AS WELL. IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL. MY MUM IS A WEAVER, AND I GUESS I'VE LEARNT A LOT OF THINGS THROUGH HER ART. THE WAY THAT SHE CARES FOR A HARAKEKE BUSH BEFORE SHE HARVESTS THE LEAVES, AND THEN ANYTHING THAT IS LEFT, SHE WILL TAKE BACK TO THAT PLANT AND PUT IT AT THE ROOTS TO HELP NURTURE AND REJUVENATE THE PLANT. AND THAT'S THAT RECIPROCITY. AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT SHE REALLY INSTILLED IN US KIDS. SHE'S AN AMAZING LADY. I WAS A TRAINED ACTOR. WELL, I AM A TRAINED ACTOR, AND THERE WERE A LOT OF DIFFERENT ADVERTS AND MOVIES AND EXPERIENCES THAT I GOT TO HAVE. AND THERE WAS ONE PARTICULAR AD THAT STICKS IN PEOPLE'S MINDS, AND IT WAS CALLED THE 'GIGANAIRE'. # GI-GI-GI-GI-GI-GI-GIGANAIRE. # SUCH A FUN DAY. WE HAD KIDS ON SET, AND YEAH, I THINK MY CHILDREN WERE AT KURA KAUPAPA THEN WHEN THEY WERE REALLY LITTLE, AND ALL OF THE KIDS THOUGHT I WAS SO COOL, AND ALL OF THE ADULTS THOUGHT I WAS SO CRINGE. (LAUGHS) GOOD TO SEE YOU. GOOD TO SEE YOU TOO. WHEN I'M IN WELLINGTON, I WON'T FORGET THE PEOPLE WHO PUT ME THERE, AND I WON'T FORGET WHERE I CAME FROM. I WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE TO THAT PRIVILEGE, AND THE LOVE AND SUPPORT THAT I'VE HAD IN MY LIFE. AND THE GREAT THING ABOUT COMING FROM A BIG FAMILY IS THAT THEY KEEP YOU HONEST. AND WE ARE COMMUNITY PEOPLE, SO I LOVE BEING AROUND PEOPLE. I LOVE TALKING TO THE COMMUNITY AND MAKING SURE WE KNOW THE ISSUES THAT ARE ACTUALLY HAPPENING AT THE FLAX ROOTS IS GOING TO BE SO IMPORTANT TO KEEP GROUNDED AND TO STAY TRUE TO MY VALUES ` MY CORE VALUES OF MANAAKITANGA AND AROHA. BEAUTIFUL. MM. KAHURANGI CARTER THERE. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US, WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO, WELCOME BACK. ELECTION 2023 WAS CONTESTED JUST AS FIERCELY ONLINE AS IT WAS ON THE TRAIL, AND NATIONAL DOMINATED LABOUR WITH A SLICK SOCIAL MEDIA STRATEGY. BUT ARE THERE DANGERS TO DIGITISING DEMOCRACY? FINN HOGAN WITH THIS REPORT. (CHEERS) FROM THE BILLBOARD TO THE BROWSER, THE FACE OF POLITICAL ADVERTISING IS CHANGING. WE'VE NEVER SEEN AN APP LIKE TIKTOK BEFORE, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE PACE OF ITS GROWTH, THE CULTURAL GRAVITY THAT IT'S ASSERTED AND THE WAY THAT FOR YOUNG PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR, IT'S BECOME ALMOST EVERYTHING. THE NATIONAL PARTY SPENT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS ON ADS LIKE THIS ON FACEBOOK. LET'S GET OUR COUNTRY BACK ON TRACK. BUT IT WAS TIKTOK ADS THAT CUT THROUGH. NATIONAL'S TIKTOK GARNERED 17 MILLION VIDEO VIEWS IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN PERIOD, NEARLY TEN TIMES LABOUR'S TIKTOK TOTAL. I THINK IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF TIKTOK TO OUR POLITICAL MESSAGING. THE SCALE OF THE NATIONAL PARTY WIN THERE, WE DON'T YET HAVE DEMOGRAPHIC INFORMATION ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT COHORTS VOTED. BUT I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT HAVING AN EXCELLENT TIKTOK GAME MIGHT HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM SOME OF THOSE TRADITIONAL LEFT/RIGHT, YOUNG/OLD SORT OF PARADIGMS THAT WE UNDERSTAND. SOMETIMES YOU JUST WANT TO CUT LOOSE A BIT AND GO PINK. WHILE BUDGET VIDEOS OF LUXON GETTING DRESSED MIGHT SEEM SILLY TO SOME, COPYWRITER MARK EASTERBROOK SAYS THE AWKWARDNESS IS INTENTIONAL. DOING THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOUR OPPONENTS MIGHT THINK ARE CRINGE OR AWKWARD, THAT'S A TECHNIQUE FOR INJECTING YOURSELF INTO THE ONLINE CIRCLES THAT YOU'RE NOT PART OF. YOU DO SOMETHING REALLY AWKWARD OR UNLIKEABLE, AND YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS, OR THE VOTERS WHO AREN'T GOING TO BACK YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO SHARE THOSE WITH PEOPLE AND SAY, 'OH GOD, LOOK AT THIS FOOL,' BUT YOU'RE SPREADING YOUR` THE IMPRESSIONS YOU'RE GETTING. YOU'RE SPREADING YOUR VISIBILITY. AND NEW MEDIUMS ARE CHANGING THE PARTY'S MESSAGES. AND THAT PLAYS INTO THIS IDEA OF THE PRESIDENTIALIZATION OF NEW ZEALAND CAMPAIGNS; THE GROWING IMPORTANCE OF THE PARTY LEADERS, AND ESPECIALLY THE MAJOR PARTY LEADERS TO THE CAMPAIGNS THEMSELVES. THE MORE PERSONAL SIDE OF THINGS, THEIR LIKEABILITY; YOU KNOW, DO WE SORT OF SEE OURSELVES IN THEM. THOUGH WHEN POLITICS GETS MORE PERSONAL, IT ALSO GETS MORE POINTED. TRADITIONALLY IN NEW ZEALAND, NEGATIVE COMMUNICATION, NEGATIVE ADVERTISING HAS TENDED TO BE A LITTLE BIT GOOFIER, A LITTLE BIT MORE SORT OF FUNNY, IN A WAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR KIND TAXATION AD FROM 2005. JUST THESE SORTS OF THINGS ` THE FART TAX AD FROM 2017. THOUGH EXPERTS WARN AS TIKTOK GROWS MORE PROMINENT, ITS CLOSE TIES TO THE CCP MUST BE SCRUTINISED. I STILL DON'T PARTICULARLY UNDERSTAND WHY TIKTOK ISN'T TAKEN MORE SERIOUSLY IN TERMS OF THE CHALLENGES IT REPRESENTS. YOU CAN'T CONFIDENTLY SAY THAT THE APP ISN'T OR WON'T BE USED FOR MALIGNED REASONS BY STATE ACTORS OR THEIR PROXIES. BUT EMERGING AI TECHNOLOGY MEANS BY NEXT ELECTION, THE LINE BETWEEN POLITICAL ADVERTISING AND MISINFORMATION COULD COMPLETELY DISAPPEAR. WE WILL SEE A PROFUSION OF INCREDIBLY COMPELLING, INCREDIBLY REALISTIC VIDEO THAT MISREPRESENTS PUBLIC FIGURES. WE SIMPLY WON'T KNOW WHAT IS AND ISN'T REAL. A NEW PROBLEM WHICH COULD REQUIRE FRESH PORTFOLIOS. A NEW MINISTRY, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A NEW MINISTER WHO LOOKED AT THE SECTOR MORE HOLISTICALLY IS PROBABLY A REALLY GOOD PLACE TO START. SO AS OUR CAMPAIGN TRAIL SHIFTS FROM HERE TO HERE, THE QUESTION OF WHERE IT WILL BE IN 2026 COULD CHANGE THE FACE OF CAMPAIGNING. WELL, PRIME MINISTER ELECT CHRISTOPHER LUXON ARRIVED AT THE CORDIS IN AUCKLAND A FEW MINUTES AGO FOR NEGOTIATIONS ` LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. NO, WE` LOOK, WE'RE IN THE FINAL STAGES. WE'RE REALLY CLOSE. WE'VE GOT A MEETING THIS MORNING WITH WINSTON PETERS, AND WE'VE JUST GOT SOME THINGS TO WORK THROUGH. AND SO WE JUST KEEP WORKING OUR WAY THROUGH IT. THE TOPIC OF CONVERSATION GETS NARROWER AND WE'RE GETTING CLOSE. (OVERLAPPING QUESTIONS) ... TODAY TALKING ABOUT POLICY` STILL TALKING ABOUT POLICY, OR ARE WE TALKING ABOUT CABINET POSITIONS TODAY? LOOK, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REALLY JUST CLOSING OUT A COUPLE OF ISSUES ON POLICY AND MAKING SURE WE REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE ALL SIGNING UP FOR. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. AS I SAID, WE STARTED THIS PROCESS LOOKING AT ALL THREE PARTIES' MANIFESTOS, A LOT OF DETAIL, GONE THROUGH LINE ITEM BY LINE ITEM. AND AS I SAID, WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF ISSUES TO CLOSE OUT. AND THAT'S WHAT I'LL KEEP WORKING THROUGH TODAY. THEY'RE THORNY ISSUES THOUGH, AREN'T THEY? NO, NOT NECESSARILY. I MEAN, THEY'RE ISSUES WHERE WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE UNDERSTAND WHERE EVERYONE'S AT, AND WE'VE GOT A FORM OF LANGUAGE AND WORDS THAT WE CAN ALL SUPPORT. SO WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT AS THOUGH YOU ARE ON SIMILAR WAVELENGTHS, BUT YOU JUST NEED TO CLARIFY WORDING, OR ARE YOU AT DIFFERENT POSITIONS? WHAT I'D SAY IS, LOOK, AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, THE PARTIES ACTUALLY HAVE HAD VERY GOOD ALIGNMENT AROUND THE GOALS. A LOT ABOUT THE MECHANISMS BY WHICH WE DELIVER THOSE GOALS OR THE POLICIES THAT DELIVER THOSE GOALS HAS BEEN A LOT OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT. AND I KNOW IT'S TAKING TIME, BUT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE GET GOOD UNDERSTANDING AND GOOD SOLIDITY IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE POLICIES ARE. DO YOU EXPECT THE MEETING TO TAKE AS LONG AS IT HAS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS? NO, I MEAN, WE'RE JUST REALLY IN THE FINAL STAGES, SO IT'S JUST MAKING SURE WE'RE FULLY ALIGNED AND THEN THERE'S SOME PROCESS WORK TO DO AFTER THAT. IS PROGRESS FURTHER ALONG WITH ACT THAN IT IS WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST? LOOK, I'M NOT GETTING INTO THAT. BUT YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF ISSUES TO CLOSE OUT WITH BOTH. BUT AS I SAID, WE'RE IN THE FINAL STAGES. WILL YOU HAVE A MEETING WITH ACT TODAY? NOT SURE. WE'LL WORK THAT THROUGH. WE MIGHT` WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO RESOLVE WITH BOTH PARTIES, ACTUALLY. A LOT OF ISSUES WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO VIA PHONE, TELEPHONE CONFERENCE CALLS OR WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO VIRTUALLY THROUGH EMAIL AND OTHER THINGS. IN TERMS OF THE FINAL AGREEMENT, ARE WE LOOKING AT SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO BE ALL THREE PARTIES TOGETHER, OR ONE WITH NATIONAL AND ONE WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST? I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THAT. I'LL TALK ABOUT THE FORMAT WHEN WE'RE READY TO ANNOUNCE. DO YOU THINK THE MINISTERIAL POSITIONS WILL BE ABLE TO GO THROUGH QUITE QUICKLY? YES, I DO. YEAH, I JUST THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK I'VE GOT A GOOD SENSE OF WHERE WE NEED TO GO, AND I'M HOPING WE CAN MOVE THOSE ISSUES THROUGH VERY QUICKLY WITH THE PARTIES. AND WILL THEY BE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT THEY WANT? AGAIN, NOT GETTING INTO ANY OF THAT AT THIS STAGE. WHEN DO YOU HOPE TO RECONVENE PARLIAMENT? LOOK, AS FAST AS WE POSSIBLY CAN. I MEAN, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO. PART OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A JOINT GOVERNMENT 100-DAY PLAN. WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO GET GOING WITH THAT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. AND AS I SAID BEFORE, WE'RE GOING TO RUN PARLIAMENT RIGHT UP UNTIL CHRISTMAS, SO WE CAN GET STUFF DONE. OBVIOUSLY IT'S TRICKY TO GIVE` OBVIOUSLY IT'S TRICKY TO GIVE A TIMELINE, BUT DO WE EXPECT TO HAVE A GOVERNMENT MAYBE EARLY NEXT WEEK? AGAIN, I WON'T GET INTO THAT. I JUST DON'T WANT TO MAKE A COMMITMENT AROUND TIMING. IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES, AND I APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S PATIENCE WITH THE PROCESS. BUT WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO HERE IS FORM A GOVERNMENT THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REALLY STRONG FOUNDATION, THAT HAS GOOD ALIGNMENT. WE'RE THREE PARTIES. WE'RE IN AN MMP ENVIRONMENT IN COALITION. YOU KNOW, I THINK WE JUST BE THANKFUL THAT IT'S NOT 10 MONTHS OF NEGOTIATION LIKE IT WAS IN THE NETHERLANDS RECENTLY. WHAT DO WE READ INTO THE FACT THAT YOU'RE NOT WEARING A TIE TODAY? THINGS A BIT MORE RELAXED IN THERE? (LAUGHS) NO, IT'S JUST` IT'S SATURDAY, AND SO THIS IS ME BEING CASUAL. (CHUCKLES) ALL RIGHT, TEAM. SEE YOU LATER. FAIR ENOUGH, TOO. THAT IS CHRISTOPHER LUXON THERE, SPEAKING AS HE GOES INTO NEGOTIATIONS. WE HAVE SENIOR REPORTER ISOBEL EWING ON STAKEOUT DUTY. ISOBEL, I UNDERSTAND WINSTON JUST ARRIVED TOO? THAT IS RIGHT, REBECCA. JUST BEFORE 10 O'CLOCK, WE HAD WINSTON PETERS ARRIVE AHEAD OF HIS MEETING WITH NATIONAL AT 10 O'CLOCK. I CAN TELL YOU THAT WINSTON PETERS WAS WEARING A TIE ` NO CASUAL SATURDAY VIBES FOR HIM. AS YOU MIGHT ALSO EXPECT, NOT KEEN TO GET INTO QUESTIONS FROM MEDIA, DIDN'T REALLY GIVE ANY NEW INFORMATION WHEN I ASKED TO HIM WHAT IS THE UPDATE FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE AT HOME WONDERING WHEN THINGS MIGHT BE WRAPPED UP. WITH BIG GRIN, HE SAID, 'WELL, WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT UNTIL NEGOTIATIONS ARE WRAPPED UP.' SO, FAIR ENOUGH, I GUESS. BUT A BIG SMILE AS HE HEADS INTO TALKS WITH NATIONAL TODAY. HAPPY AND RELAXED, THEN. WHAT IS EXPECTED TO HAPPEN TODAY OR THIS WEEKEND? WELL, IT HAS BEEN 15 DAYS SINCE THOSE SPECIAL VOTES WERE COUNTED. STARTING TO FEEL A BIT LIKE GROUNDHOG DAY FOR JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR ANY UPDATE, ANY NUGGET OF INFORMATION. WE SAW DEPUTY NATIONAL LEADER NICOLA WILLIS HEADING OUT EARLIER AT ABOUT 9.30 TO THE DAIRY. SHE SAID TO GRAB A POWER DRINK. THAT SENTIMENT MAY BE REFLECTED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN NEGOTIATIONS AND JOURNALISTS OUT HERE. WHAT WE DO UNDERSTAND IS HAPPENING TODAY IS THE TALKS BETWEEN NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND NATIONAL, WE UNDERSTAND GOOD PROGRESS WAS MADE YESTERDAY. THEY REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF POLICY ISSUES BUT STILL NEED TO GO THROUGH SOME. THERE HAS BEEN A DIFFERENT STYLE OF NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN ACT AND NATIONAL. THEY HAVE BEEN NEGOTIATING VIA CORRESPONDENCE. WE UNDERSTAND THAT ACT AND NATIONAL HAVE MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS, BUT STILL NEED TO CROSSCHECK THAT PROGRESS WITH NEW ZEALAND FIRST. ACT AND NATIONAL ARE POTENTIALLY CLOSE TO AN AGREEMENT, BUT A LOT TO BE WORKED THROUGH TODAY. WE ASKED CHRISTOPHER LUXON EARLIER ABOUT THE MINISTERIAL POSTS, AND HE SEEMS TO THINK THAT MIGHT BE WORKED THROUGH QUICKLY. A MIX OF OPTIMISM, BUT RELUCTANCE TO GET INTO ANY SORT OF TIMELINE. WE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE MIGHT BE A GOVERNMENT EARLY NEXT WEEK, BUT I WOULD NOT, LIKE EVERYBODY INVOLVED, WANT TO BET ON THAT. ABSOLUTELY. A BIT OF AN UPDATE. ABSOLUTELY. THANK YOU SO MUCH, ISOBEL EWING, AND FOR YOUR STAKEOUT DUTY THIS WEEKEND TOO. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE IN THOSE COALITION TALKS ` LET'S HOPE WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT SOON. NGA MIHI NUI, WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY KATE HARRIS AND KATE MCCULLOUGH. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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