TENA KOUTOU NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO OUR FIRST SUNDAY MORNING Q+A FOR 2024. I'M JACK TAME. THIS MORNING, CHLOE SWARBRICK AND HER PLAN FOR GETTING THE GREENS INTO GOVERNMENT. I DON'T THINK, SOLELY, THAT ELECTORAL SUCCESS IS THE ONLY WAY TO FACILITATE CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY. THEN ` WELLINGTON'S WATER WOES PUT A DAMPENER ON SUMMER IN THE CAPITAL. SOMEWHERE ALONG MY ROUTE, I'LL SEE A NEW LEAK POP UP; THERE'S BEEN ONE FURTHER UP, THERE'S BEEN A COUPLE IN A ZIGZAG. SO YOU NEED TO WEAR GUMBOOTS TO WORK, REALLY, DON'T YOU? I'M JUST, LIKE, ALL THIS LEAKING WATER! BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT. WITH FRESH UNEMPLOYMENT STATS OUT THIS WEEK, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT'S COMMITTED TO GETTING MORE PEOPLE OFF BENEFITS AND INTO WORK. LOUISE UPSTON IS THE NEW MINISTER FOR SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND EMPLOYMENT. CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR APPOINTMENT, AND WELCOME TO Q+A. THANK YOU. GIVE US YOUR VISION. WHAT YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE? I AM REALLY CLEARLY FOCUSED ON SUPPORTING JOBSEEKERS INTO WORK. UNFORTUNATELY THE REPORT THAT WE ARE SEEING THIS WEEK, PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, IF SOMEONE GOES ON TO WELFARE UNDER THE AGE OF 20, THIS RECENT REPORT HAS SAID ON AVERAGE, THEY WILL SPEND 24 YEARS ON WELFARE. I HAVE BEEN A SOLO MUM FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. IT IS REALLY THE TOUGHEST TIME OF MY LIFE. I WANT TO SEE MORE NEW ZEALANDERS CONNECTED WITH THE OPPORTUNITIES OF WORK. PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE JOBSEEKER BENEFIT. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT PEOPLE ARE IN WORK, THEY ARE BETTER OFF, NOT JUST ECONOMICALLY, BUT SOCIALLY, SOCIAL CONNECTIONS, BETTER HEALTH, BETTER MENTAL HEALTH. THAT IS MY PRIORITY ONE, SUPPORTING MORE PEOPLE OFF THE JOBSEEKER BENEFIT AND INTO WORK. ACCORDING TO THE LATEST STATS FOR THE QUARTER ENDING DECEMBER, 109,000 PEOPLE ARE ON THE WORK READY JOB. BENEFIT OR THAT THE UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT? I FOCUS ON THE TOTAL JOBSEEKER NUMBERS. I DO THAT BECAUSE ALTHOUGH THERE IS TWO CATEGORIES, THERE IS WORK READY IN HEALTH CONDITION AND DISABILITY, THOSE ON HEALTH CONDITION AND DISABILITY, THE ATTENTION IS THAT THEY BE READY FOR WORK IN TWO YEARS. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE TEAM AT WORK AND INCOME START WORKING WITH THEM NOW, SO THEY ARE READY, SO THEY ARE PROVIDING TRAINING OPPORTUNITIES, AND THEY ARE BUILDING THE SKILLS AND CAPABILITIES, SO THEY ARE READY TO BE IN WORK IN THE FUTURE. THE TOTAL JOBSEEKER NUMBERS ARE 190,000. WHAT WILL THEY BE UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT? THE INCREASES WON'T BE WHAT THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT ALLOWED TO HAPPEN. 20,000 IN THE LAST YEAR ALONE. YOUR GOVERNMENT, WHAT WILL YOU ACHIEVE? 190,000; WHAT IS YOUR NUMBER? I HAVE A TARGET. THE GOVERNMENT IS WORKING ON WHAT WILL BE A SERIES OF MEASURES THAT WE CAN DEMONSTRATE TO NEW ZEALAND THAT WE ARE DELIVERING AS COUNTRY. WHAT IS THE TARGET? I AM WORKING ON IT. THE FIRST THING IS TO STOP THE MASSIVE INCREASES THAT WE HAVE SEEN UNBELIEVERS WATCH. WE ARE FACING SOME CHALLENGING ECONOMIC TIMES. TREASURY HAS FORECAST THAT NUMBER WILL KEEP GOING UP UNTIL JANUARY NEXT YEAR, PEAKING AT JUST UNDER 200,000. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT NUMBER IS COMING DOWN. WE WILL SEE WHAT THE TARGET IS. IT WON'T BE FAR OFF. YOU SAID YOU WILL ASSIST PEOPLE INTO WORK WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF A 90 DAY WILL TRIAL PERIOD. THOSE TRIAL PERIODS, HOW WERE THEY HELP PEOPLE ON BENEFITS INTO WORK? A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON WELFARE, ON THE JOBSEEKER BENEFIT, THEY HAVE LUMPS AND BUMPS. THERE MIGHT BE CHALLENGES THAT HAVE KEPT THEM OUT OF THE WORKFORCE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD A JOB FOR TWO YEARS, OR MORE, IT WILL BE CHALLENGING FOR YOU TO RECONNECT. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EMPLOYERS ARE WILLING TO GIVE SOMEONE A CHANCE. AS MINISTER OF CORRECTIONS, WE GOT 2000 PRISONERS INTO WORK. IT IS THAT BALANCE OF MAKING SURE EMPLOYERS ARE WILLING TO TAKE A CHANCE ON SOMEONE. FOR SOME BUSINESSES, THAT 90 DAY TRIAL WAS SUFFICIENT BARRIER. NOT HAVING THAT BARRIER. WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT THOSE 90 DAY TRIAL PERIODS ARE AN EFFECTIVE WAY OF GETTING PEOPLE FROM BENEFITS INTO WORK? IF YOU LOOK AT THE GROUPS THAT ARE OVERREPRESENTED ON WELFARE STATS, THEY TEND TO BE WOMEN, THEY TEND TO BE MAORI, PRISONERS. WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE A 90 DAY TRIAL PERIOD AS AN EFFECTIVE WAY OF DOING IT? ANY EMPLOYER I HAVE SPOKEN TO RECENTLY WHO TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT IS ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT STOPS THEM FROM TAKING ON STAFF. EMPLOYER FEEDBACK? THAT IS WHAT I AM REFERRING TO. UNDER PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS, THERE WAS A REPORT ON THE 90 DALE TRIAL. PERIOD HAVE YOU READ THAT? I HAVEN'T. PAGE 5, ' WE FIND NO EVIDENCE THAT THE 90 DAY TRIAL INCREASES THE PROBABILITY OF WORK.' THAT WAS A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. TREASURY PROVIDES ADVICE ALL THE TIME. WHAT DID THEY GET WRONG? MINISTERS MAKE DECISIONS. I AM CLEAR; MY PRIORITY IS TO SUPPORT JOBSEEKERS INTO WORK. TRIAL PERIODS. FROM WHEN NATIONAL WAS LAST IN GOVERNMENT, YOU HAVEN'T READ IT. THE AUTHORS SAY THAT YOUR POINT IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG. THERE IS NOT ONE THING THAT IS GOING TO SUPPORT US GETTING THOSE NUMBERS DOWN. 190,000 NEW ZEALANDERS ON A JOBSEEKER BENEFIT, THEY ARE MISSING OUT ON THE OPPORTUNITIES AND CHOICES THAT WORK BRING. THERE IS NO ONE THING. THE SUPPORT UNDER THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT HAD A SIMILAR POLICY IN PLACE, THEY SAID THIS ONE THING IS TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE. TIME WILL TELL ON THAT. I AM RELENTLESSLY FOCUSED ON HOW WE SUPPORT PEOPLE INTO WORK. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WILL BE DOING IS FOCUSING ON BUSINESSES AND EMPLOYERS. I HAVE MET WITH THE AUCKLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. WE ARE KEEN TO WORK TOGETHER ON HOW WE CAN SUPPORT SMALL BUSINESSES. THAT IS WITH A 90 DAY TRIAL WORKS WITH EMPLOYERS. I AM TWO MONTHS AND. THERE IS A MASS OF REPORTS. THAT IS NOT ONE THAT I HAVE READ. I AM CLEAR ABOUT THE SOCIAL OUTCOMES REPORT THAT HAS COME OUT THIS WEEK. IT SAYS 24 YEARS FOR A YOUNG PERSON ON WELFARE. THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS ACCEPTABLE. NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT. ANOTHER WAY THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HELP TO BRING PEOPLE FROM RECEIVING BENEFITS INTO WORK IS WITH A NEW SANCTION SYSTEM. IT IS A TRAFFIC LIGHT SYSTEM. WILL THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE SANCTION BY YOUR GOVERNMENT INCREASE WOULD DECREASE? FOR PEOPLE, WE WILL EXPLAIN WHAT SANCTIONS ARE. THERE IS A MUTUAL OBLIGATION FOR SOMEONE RECEIVING WELFARE TO DO THEIR BIT. FOR SOMEONE ON A JOBSEEKER, IT MIGHT BE HAVING AN UP-TO-DATE CV, PARTICIPATING IN TRAINING, APPLYING FOR JOBS, GOING TO A JOB INTERVIEW. YOU HAVE TO MAKE AN EFFORT. THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE SANCTIONED INCREASE OR DECREASE? I WILL EXPECT IT WILL INCREASE. IT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF PEOPLE NOT TAKING ACTIONS THAT HELP THEMSELVES. IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY DECREASED UNDER THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT RELATIVE TO THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. 50%. WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT SANCTIONS WORK? WE NOW HAVE 190,000 PEOPLE ON THE JOBSEEKER BENEFIT. 67,000 MORE THAN SIX YEARS AGO. IF WE LOOK AT THE USE OF SANCTIONS, CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE NOT TAKING THE STEPS THEY NEED TO TAKE TO FIND WORK, THAT IS 50% MORE. YOU HAVE READ THE REPORT FROM THE WELFARE EXPERT ADVISORY GROUP. ' THERE IS LITTLE EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF USING OBLIGATIONS AND SANCTIONS TO CHANGE BEHAVIOUR. THERE IS RESEARCH INDICATING A CAN POWER SOCIAL HARM AND DISCONNECTEDNESS.' THERE IS A RANGE OF RESEARCH. I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. WHAT DID THEY GET WRONG ABOUT THAT? THERE IS A RANGE AROUND CONSEQUENCES. WHAT WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT LINE FROM THE WELFARE ADVISORY GROUP? I AM NOT SAYING IT IS WRONG. YOU AGREE WITH THEM THAT THERE IS LITTLE EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF SANCTIONS? THERE IS A RANGE OF VIEWS. MY VIEW IS CLEAR. YOU AGREE WITH OUTLINE. WE HAVE SEEN AN ABSOLUTE BLOWING OUT OF WELFARE DEPENDENCY UNDER THE WATCH OF THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT. THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THE TRAFFIC LIGHT POLICY ISN'T JUST ABOUT SANCTIONS. PART OF HAVING A SYSTEM LIKE THAT IS TO LOOK AT WHAT IS THE RISK THAT SOMEONE IS GOING TO BE LONGER TERM ON WELFARE? IT IS ALSO ABOUT WHAT ADDITIONAL SUPPORT TO THE NEED? WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE GETS THE RED LIGHT, THE WORST SCENARIO, THEY HAVE THE BENEFIT SUSPENDED. WHAT HAPPENS? THERE IS A GRADUATED SERIES OF SANCTIONS. THEY ARE AT THE RED LIGHT, THE WORST END. PART OF THE ADDITION TO THE SANCTIONS REGIME THAT WE ARE PROPOSED, THERE ARE TWO NON-FINANCIAL SANCTIONS. ONE IS MONEY MANAGEMENT, SO THEY WOULDN'T GET THE BENEFIT CUT OR REDUCED. THAT IS PARTICULARLY OF INTEREST TO FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN. THE MAXIMUM IS THAT THERE COULD BE A 50% REDUCTION. FOR FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN, BUT BENEFICIARIES WITHOUT CHILDREN, THE MAXIMUM IS THE MAXIMUM. WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE HAS THE BENEFIT TOTALLY CUT? WHAT HAPPENS WITH MANY OF THEM AS THEY THEN, 88%, COMPLY WITH THEIR OBLIGATIONS. WHAT ABOUT THE 12%? THAT AS A CONSEQUENCE. THE THOUSANDS OF LOW-INCOME TAXPAYERS THAT ARE ASSISTING TO FUND THE WELFARE SYSTEM, THEY THINK IT IS ACCEPTABLE THAT PEOPLE PLAY THEIR PART TO FIND A JOB. THAT IS COMMON SENSE. IF SOMEONE HAS THE BENEFIT CUT, IN AN ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO, HOW WOULD THEY PAY TO SURVIVE? THERE WILL BE A RANGE OF OPTIONS. WHAT ARE THOSE OPTIONS? IF THEY DO NOT FULFIL THE OBLIGATIONS, IT IS CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE WELFARE SYSTEM WILL NOT SUPPORT THEM BEYOND THAT POINT. WHAT OTHER OPTIONS? THEY MIGHT GO WITH FAMILY, THEY MIGHT GO WITH FRIENDS. THERE MIGHT BE OTHERS THAT LOOK AFTER THEM FOR COMMUNITY. THE REPORT YOU AGREE WITH SAID IT EMPOWERS SOCIAL HARM AND DISCONNECTEDNESS. 50% SANCTION ON APPARENT, WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPACT ON A CHILD IF A PARENT HAD THE BENEFIT CUT? THAT IS WHY I HAVE PROPOSED TWO ADDITIONAL NON-FINANCIAL OPTIONS. YOU STILL HAVE THAT OPTION FOR 50% CUT TO A PARENT BENEFICIARY. IN THAT WORST CASE SCENARIO. I AM NOT ANTICIPATING THAT WILL BE USED IN THE SAME RANGE THAT IT WAS. IT WILL BE USED? IT IS USED NOW. THAT WAS USED UNDER LABOUR. WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE CHILDREN? THEIR FAMILIES, 88%, THEN COMPLY WITH THEIR OBLIGATIONS. IT AS A FINAL RESORT. IT AS A LAST RESORT. I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS VERY OFTEN. IT DOES HAPPEN, AND IT WILL HAPPEN UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT. IT DOES, AND IT IS A FINAL STEP. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORK AND INCOME FRONTLINE STAFF, THEY WORK INCREDIBLY HARD SUPPORT PEOPLE TO DO THEIR BIT. THERE WILL BE SOME THAT REFUSE TO. THEY SHOULD BE A CONSEQUENCE. FOR THE CHILDREN AS WELL? THAT IS ONLY FAIR TO TAXPAYING NEW ZEALANDERS THAT THERE IS A CONSEQUENCE. AS A PARENT, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PARENTS WITH CHILDREN TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY. THE OPTION IS THAT THEY COMPLY WITH THE OBLIGATIONS. THEY ARE NOT UNUSUAL, AND THEY ARE NOT OWNER'S OBLIGATIONS. THAT IS THE IMPORTANT PART OF IT. ARE BENEFIT LEVELS AT THE CURRENT RATES ENOUGH FOR BENEFICIARIES TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY? IT IS CHALLENGING TO LIVE ON A BENEFIT, AT WHATEVER RATE, WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE COMMITTED TO END ALL INCREASES. ARE THEY ENOUGH TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY AT THE CURRENT LEVELS? I DO. WE HAVE SEEN ANNUAL INCREASES. THEY WILL CONTINUE TO BE INCREASED ANNUALLY. YOU ARE CHANGING THE WAY THE BENEFIT INCREASES ARE CALCULATED FROM INDEXING FROM WAGE INCREASES TO INFLATION. ON THE CURRENT PROJECTIONS, WILL THAT MEAN BENEFICIARIES THIS TERM RECEIVE MORE OR LESS MONEY THAN THEY WOULD HAVE UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM? IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS. ON CURRENT PROJECTIONS? CPI IS LIKELY TO BE SLIGHTLY LESS. FOR SOME, IT MIGHT MEAN TWO DOLLARS OR ONE DOLLAR A WEEK. WELL BENEFICIARIES UNDER THE CHANGES YOU HAVE MADE RECEIVE MORE OR LESS MONEY THIS TERM ON CURRENT PROJECTIONS THAN THEY WOULD HAVE UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM? MARGINALLY LESS. IN TERMS OF INDEXING, 31 YEARS OF THE LAST 35, WE HAVE INDEXED INCREASES TO BENEFITS BASED ON CPI. THAT IS TO ACCURATELY REFLECT THE COSTS THAT BENEFICIARY HOUSEHOLDS FACE. WIDELY INDEX SUPERANNUATION TO WAGES? THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. WHY? IF IT IS GOOD ENOUGH TO INDEX BENEFITS TO CPI, WHY IS IT OKAY TO DO SUPERANNUATION? SOUPY ORATION FOR BENEFICIARIES IS LINKED TO THE REAL COSTS THAT THEY FACE. TO PEOPLE TRADITIONALLY OVER THE DECADES YOU HAVE CITED, WHAT THEY RECEIVE MORE MONEY AS BENEFICIARIES OF THE INCREASES HAVE BEEN INDEXED TO WAGES OR CPI? I DON'T HAVE THAT FIGURE IN FRONT OF ME, BUT I DO KNOW TRADITIONALLY, CPI IS USED. IT WAS INTERESTING WITH THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT, THEY MOVE FROM CPI TO WAGES, AND THEN THEY MOVED BACK TO CPI, THEN WERE GOING TO DECIDE. THEY MOVED IT TO WAGES BECAUSE WAGES WOULD GIVE BENEFICIARIES MORE MONEY. CONSISTENCY IS REALLY IMPORTANT. CONSISTENCY IS IMPORTANT FOR CHANGE. WAGE GROWTH IS PREDICTED BY TREASURY, THE RESERVE BANK, THE ECONOMIC UPDATE IN DECEMBER. WAGE GROWTH WAS PREDICTED TO OUTSTRIP CPI. BENEFICIARIES WILL BE MORE THAN $30 WORSE OFF EVERY WEEK BY THE END OF THIS TERM, $50 BY THE END OF THE DECADE THAN UNDER THE PREVIOUS SYSTEM. THAT IS YOUR DECISION. I WANT TO HAVE LESS PEOPLE IN BENEFICIARY AND MORE AND WORK. THEY WILL HAVE BETTER OUTCOME FOR THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN. AT A TIME WHEN BOTH TREASURY AND THE RESERVE BANK ARE FORECASTING A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN UNEMPLOYMENT, YOU ARE CUTTING THE INCREASES TO BENEFITS. WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOUR GOVERNMENT'S VALUES? OUR GOVERNMENT'S VALUES IS CLEARLY, WE WANT TO HAVE FEWER PEOPLE ON WELFARE. WE WILL NOT TOLERATE FULL BEING STUCK INDEPENDENT ON WELFARE FOR A FEW DECADES. WE SUPPORT PEOPLE OFF . WELFARE PEOPLE BEING UNEMPLOYED, ON BENEFITS FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE TIME THEY EXPERIENCE THAT, YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS MADE A CHANGE MEANING THEY WOULD HAVE LESS MONEY. THE REALITY OF THE ECONOMIC TIMES WE ARE IN IS THAT THERE ARE ALSO HOUSEHOLDS THAT ARE DOING IT TOUGH ON LOW AND MIDDLE INCOMES. THE COST OF LIVING IS AFFECTING KIWIS ALL OVER NEW ZEALAND. WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE ANNUAL BENEFIT INCREASES REFLECT THE ACTUAL COSTS AND INCREASES IN COSTS THAT PEOPLE FACE. MY PRIORITY IS TO HELP PEOPLE INTO A LIFE OF MORE OPPORTUNITY AND CHOICE THAT COMES FROM WORK. WE ARE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOOD LUCK. WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THOSE TARGETS. THANK YOU. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH 'NZQANDA', AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE GREENS' PATH TO GOVERNMENT. AS JAMES SHAW STEPS DOWN, A GREEN PARTY MEMBER IN DUNEDIN IS CHALLENGING MP CHLOE SWARBRICK FOR THE PARTY'S CO-LEADERSHIP. SWARBRICK IS STILL WIDELY CONSIDERED THE FRONTRUNNER, HAVING WON AND THEN HELD THE AUCKLAND CENTRAL ELECTORATE, AND CONSISTENTLY FEATURED IN PREFERRED PRIME MINISTER POLLS. I ASKED HER WHY SHE'S THE BEST PERSON TO BECOME THE NEW CO-LEADER. I BELIEVE THAT THE ROLE OF POLITICIANS IS TO HOLD A MIRROR OUT TO SOCIETY AND TO EMPOWER THE CITIZENSHIP, BASICALLY, TO SAY TO NEW ZEALANDERS THAT, HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT? DO NOT LEAVE POLITICS TO THE POLITICIANS. BECAUSE POLITICS IS MADE TO LOOK INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED. AND IN FACT, THAT'S HOW WE'VE ENDED UP ALIENATING AND OSTRACISING MANY PEOPLE FROM BEING ENGAGED IN DECISIONS THAT IMPACT AND SATURATE OUR DAILY LIVES, THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHICH WE SEE REPRESENTED IN THE GREATEST INEQUALITY THAT WE'VE EVER SEEN ON RECORD, THE HOUSING CRISIS, THE BIODIVERSITY CRISIS, THE CLIMATE CRISIS, AND OF COURSE, THE ISSUES CURRENTLY CONFRONTING US WITH REGARD TO POLARISATION. SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY RIGHT NOW TO UNIFY AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND AND TO PUSH FOR THE KIND OF COUNTRY AND SYSTEMS THAT ALL OF US DESERVE, WHICH ULTIMATELY UPHOLD PEOPLE AND PLANET, AS OPPOSED TO EXPLOITING THEM. BUT WHY ARE YOU THE BEST PERSON TO DO THAT? BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE DEMONSTRATED OVER THE PAST TWO ELECTIONS, IN 2020 AND 2023, DOING WHAT EVERYBODY THOUGHT WAS IMPOSSIBLE ` OBVIOUSLY AGAINST THE RED WAVE AND THEN THE BLUE WAVE, BUILDING OUR BASE FOR AUCKLAND CENTRAL AND THE COMMUNITY ALONG THE WAY, AND IN DOING SO, WE'VE ALSO BUILT THE CAPACITY OF OUR ACTIVISTS AND OUR COMMUNITY TO SOLVE MANY OF OUR OWN PROBLEMS, IN TURN KIND OF MICRODOSING HOPE AND SHOWING PEOPLE THAT THINGS ARE POSSIBLE ` BETTER THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WHEN ALL OF US WORK TOGETHER. AND IN TURN, WE'VE CONTINUED TO BUILD POWER, AND THAT'S DEMONSTRATED IN THE FACT THAT WE NOW HAVE THE LARGEST EVER GREEN CAUCUS THAT WE'VE EVER SEEN. DIDN'T JAMES SHAW DO THE IMPOSSIBLE BY GETTING THE ZERO CARBON ACT THROUGH WITH THE SUPPORT OF NATIONAL? ABSOLUTELY. AND, YOU KNOW, I'M A BIG FAN OF THAT WORK. SO WHAT QUALITIES DISTINGUISH YOU FROM JAMES SHAW? WELL, I THINK THAT JAMES AND I HAVE SIMILARITIES WITH REGARD TO OUR ABILITY TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE. BUT I WOULD SAY THE THING WHICH JAMES AND I HAVE ACTUALLY ALSO DISCUSSED ` WITHOUT GIVING AWAY TOO MUCH OF THOSE DISCUSSIONS ` IS THE FACT THAT I HAVE VERY MUCH STAKED MY CLAIM IN POLITICS WITH MOVEMENT BUILDING. THAT IS THE THING THAT I AM MOST INTERESTED IN ` MY VERY STRONG THEORY OF CHANGE. AND ONE OF THE REASONS, THE MANY REASONS, THAT I'M IN THE GREEN PARTY, ALONGSIDE THE ALIGNMENT OF KAUPAPA, IS THE FACT THAT I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE PERSON CAN MAKE CHANGE ALONE, AND THAT MEANS EMBOLDENING AND WORKING WITH AND BUILDING UP CAPACITY OF CIVIL SOCIETY TO BE ABLE TO HOLD POLITICIANS TO ACCOUNT, TO MOVE THINGS FORWARD. OK, THEN, LET'S TALK ABOUT MOVEMENT BUILDING. WHAT IS THE GREENS' PATH TO GOVERNMENT? OUR PATH TO GOVERNMENT IS BUILDING AN EVER-STRONGER MANDATE, AND THAT MEANS WINNING MORE SEATS. AND HOW WE DO THAT IS BY GROWING OUR GREEN PARTY MEMBERSHIP. I ALSO THINK THAT AS PART OF THAT PROCESS OF BUILDING THE GREEN PARTY MEMBERSHIP, IS THAT I ALSO WANT TO SEE MORE OF OUR LOCAL BRANCHES IN PROVINCES AROUND THE COUNTRY BUILDING UP CAPACITY TO BUILD LOCAL CAMPAIGNS AND TO WIN LOCAL CAMPAIGNS. SO HOW MANY MORE SEATS ARE WE TALKING? WELL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT TAKES TO LEAD A GOVERNMENT, JACK. AND WHAT DOES IT TAKE? WELL, OBVIOUSLY WE NEED AT LEAST 61 TO FORM A GOVERNMENT, AND THERE'LL BE ANY KIND OF ITERATION OF WORKING WITH OUR ALLIES, WHETHER THAT BE TE PATI MAORI OR OF COURSE OUR FRIENDS IN LABOUR. AND TO THAT EFFECT, IT'S ABOUT BUILDING THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE GREEN MANDATE FOR THAT CHANGE. SO HOW MANY SEATS SHOULD THE GREEN PARTY HAVE WITH YOU AS CO-LEADER AT THE NEXT ELECTION? I THINK THAT THAT'S KIND OF A BIT OF A HERE-NOR-THERE ARBITRARY` NO, YOU'RE THE ONE WHO WANTS TO BUILD A MOVEMENT. YEAH, I DO WANT TO BUILD A MOVEMENT. SO GIVE ME SOME QUANTIFIABLE MEASURES AS TO WHAT THAT MOVEMENT SHOULD LOOK LIKE. I THINK THIS IS WHERE WE LOSE SIGHT OF THE WOOD FOR THE TREES, TO BE QUITE FRANK WITH YOU, JACK. WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN IS REMINDING PEOPLE OF THE POWER THAT THEY THEMSELVES WIELD OUT THERE IN CIVIL SOCIETY IN THE TOWNS AND CITIES ACROSS OUR COUNTRY TO HOLD POLITICIANS TO ACCOUNT. WHAT POWER DOES THE GREEN PARTY HAVE RIGHT NOW? I JUST WANT TO FINISH THIS ANSWER, JACK, BECAUSE I THINK IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE. I DON'T THINK SOLELY THAT ELECTORAL SUCCESS IS THE ONLY WAY TO FACILITATE CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY. SO IF YOU'LL INDULGE ME AND I CAN JUST UNPACK THAT THEORY OF CHANGE` YOU THINK IT'S GOOD TO BE IN OPPOSITION? THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING AT ALL. I THINK THAT THERE ARE TWO MAIN WAYS THAT YOU CAN GO ABOUT BRINGING ABOUT CHANGE. ONE IS OF COURSE THE FOCUS ON STRUCTURAL AND SYSTEMIC CHANGE ` THAT'S OUR LEGISLATION, REGULATION, FUNDING, TAXATION, INCENTIVES, SUBSIDIES ` THE PULPIT. YOU'RE A PARTY IN PARLIAMENT. YES, EXACTLY. BUT WHAT I DON'T THINK WE SPEND ANYWHERE NEAR ENOUGH TIME TALKING ABOUT IS CULTURE. CULTURE, FROM A DESIGN THINKING PERSPECTIVE, IS ABOUT A SHARED SET OF VALUES. AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE ARE HAVING EXPLICIT ENOUGH DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE KINDS OF VALUES THAT WE WANT LEADING OUR COUNTRY. SO IF WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE ENGAGE AND WHAT THE LEVERS OF POWER ARE TO CHANGE OUR CULTURAL LANDSCAPE, THEY ARE THINGS LIKE EDUCATION; THEY ARE THINGS LIKE COMMUNITY-BUILDING; THEY ARE THINGS LIKE MEDIA, INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA ` THE CAPACITY TO DISCUSS THESE IDEAS AND TO INFORM OURSELVES. AND WHEN YOU FOCUS ON BUILDING POWER IN THAT CULTURAL SPHERE, ALL OF US DECIDING THE KIND OF FUTURE THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE, THEN WE CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT CONDUCIVE TO THAT STRUCTURAL AND THAT SYSTEMIC CHANGE. SO I'M FOCUSED ON REMINDING NEW ZEALANDERS OF THEIR POWER, THAT POLITICIANS WORK FOR THEM, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. OK, LET'S TALK ABOUT STRUCTURAL CHANGE AND WORKING WITHIN THE PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM. SO, APART FROM A GRAND COALITION, THE GREENS AND NATIONAL WERE THE ONLY PARTIES WITH ENOUGH SUPPORT AT THE LAST ELECTION TO FORM A TWO-PARTY COALITION. WOULD YOU PERSONALLY HAVE SUPPORTED ENTERING NEGOTIATIONS WITH NATIONAL? LOOK, I THINK THAT WE'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT WE'RE OPEN TO DISCUSSIONS. WE ALWAYS HAVE AN OPEN DOOR. SO YOU WOULD HAVE DONE THAT? I THINK THAT I WANT TO BE REALLY CAREFUL HERE, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT A CLICKBAIT HEADLINE THAT POPS UP SAYING THAT CHLOE SWARBRICK IS SAYING THAT WE WOULD ENTERTAIN SOME FORM OF WORKING WITH A RIGHT-WING PARTY THAT HAD COMMITTED TO REOPENING OIL AND GAS DRILLING IN MAUI DOLPHIN HABITATS, TO MINING ON CONSERVATION ESTATE, TO SCALING BACK OUR CLIMATE CONTRIBUTIONS ` TO NATIONALLY DETERMINED CONTRIBUTIONS. SO LET'S THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED IF YOU'D ENTERED THAT TWO-PARTY COALITION. YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED, POTENTIALLY, NATIONAL FROM REOPENING OIL AND GAS IN AN AREA THAT YOU SAY IS AFFECTED BY MAUI DOLPHINS. YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED THEM FROM SCALING BACK SOME OF THEIR CLIMATE COMMISSIONS, YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED THEM FROM SCRAPPING THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED THEM FROM INTRODUCING THE TREATY PRINCIPLES BILL, YOU COULD HAVE STOPPED THEM FROM PARING BACK OUR WORLD-LEADING TOBACCO LEGISLATION THAT DISPROPORTIONATELY CAUSES HARM AND DEATHS IN THE COMMUNITIES YOU PURPORT TO REPRESENT. WHY WOULDN'T YOU REACH ACROSS THE AISLE? WHY WOULDN'T THE NATIONAL PARTY REACH ACROSS THE AISLE, IN MUCH THAT SAME VEIN? IF WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT HOW WE GO ABOUT BUILDING COALITIONS? BECAUSE THE NATIONAL PARTY HAS OPTIONS. THE NATIONAL PARTY CAN GO WITH ACT, THE NATIONAL PARTY CAN GO WITH A THREE-PARTY COALITION WITH ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST, WHOSE POLICIES MANY OF WHICH YOU ABHOR. THE GREENS HAD NO OPTION. AND I WANT TO TAKE US BACK TO FIRST PRINCIPLES, HERE, RIGHT` NO, NO, NO. TAKE THAT` NO, THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT, BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT HOW THE GREEN PARTY MAKE DECISIONS, RIGHT? WE ARE THE MOST FUNDAMENTALLY DEMOCRATIC PARTY INSIDE OF OUR PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM, SO THIS WOULD NOT BE A DECISION FOR OUR CO-LEADERS ALONE, NOR JUST FOR OUR CAUCUS, IT WOULD BE A DECISION FOR OUR LEADERSHIP. BUT AS CO-LEADERS, YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LEAD IT. SO I'M ASKING, WHY WOULDN'T YOU REACH ACROSS THE AISLE TO TRY AND STOP SOME OF THOSE CHANGES? WE WOULD HAVE THOSE SAME DISCUSSIONS IN PUBLIC AS WE WOULD HAVE IN PRIVATE. AND I THINK THAT YOU CAN SEE FROM MY TRACK RECORD AS A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AS AN ACTIVIST AND AS AN ADVOCATE, THAT I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN WILLING TO SAY THE SAME THING IN PUBLIC AND IN PRIVATE. SO, HEY, IF THE NATIONAL PARTY WERE INTERESTED IN SCRAPPING ALL OF THEIR INCREDIBLY REDUCTIVE, REACTIVE AND BACKWARD-LOOKING AGENDA, THEN THEY'D BE A DIFFERENT PARTY, AND OF COURSE WE'D BE WILLING TO TALK TO THEM. IF YOU HAD BEEN CO-LEADER AT THE LAST ELECTION, WOULD YOU HAVE REACHED ACROSS THE AISLE AND CONTACTED NATIONAL? I WOULD ASSUME THAT THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVERSATIONS. BUT IF YOU WERE THE CO-LEADER AND YOU HADN'T HEARD ANYTHING FROM NATIONAL, WOULD YOU TAKE THE INITIATIVE TO REACH OUT TO NATIONAL? AGAIN, JACK, I THINK THAT YOU'RE KIND OF MISSING THE POINT HERE, WHICH IS THE AGENDA THAT ALL OF US COME TO PARLIAMENT IN ORDER TO PROGRESS. YES, IT'S ABOUT YOUR LEADERSHIP, AND IT'S ABOUT THE POLICIES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOU. SO, IF FACED WITH THAT SCENARIO, A VERY REALISTIC SCENARIO, WOULD YOU, AS CO-LEADER, REACH OUT TO THE NATIONAL PARTY TO CONSIDER NEGOTIATIONS? SURE. JACK, WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT I WOULD ABSOLUTELY REACH ACROSS THE AISLE TO THE NATIONAL PARTY IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, TO SAY THAT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO THEIR AGENDA TO POUR OIL AND GAS ON THE CLIMATE CRISIS FIRE. THESE ARE THE NEGOTIATIONS YOUR PARTY COULD HAVE HAD BUT DIDN'T, BECAUSE MANY IN YOUR PARTY ARE SO OPPOSED TO THE IDEA, THE MERE IDEA, OF WORKING ALONGSIDE THE NATIONAL PARTY. I THINK THAT YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT WHICH I RAISED IN MY PREVIOUS ANSWER, WHICH IS ACTUALLY HOW WE GO ABOUT BUILDING POWER IN THIS COUNTRY. I THINK WE SPEND FAR TOO MUCH TIME TALKING ABOUT POLITICAL PARTIES AND POLITICAL PARTY LEADERS. AND I THINK THAT THAT MISSES THE POINT OF THE POWER THAT EXISTS` CHLOE, YOU'RE IN PARLIAMENT. THIS IS A PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM. IF YOU WANT TO CREATE CHANGE WITHIN THE PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM ` I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT GRASSROOTS-LED LEADERSHIP AND ABOUT CULTURE CHANGE FROM RELATIVELY DISEMPOWERED COMMUNITIES COMING TOGETHER, BUT YOU'RE IN PARLIAMENT. THIS IS HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS. AND DEALING WITH THE CHIPS AS THEY FALL, ABSOLUTELY, I TAKE THAT ON BOARD. BUT THE BROADER MESSAGE THAT I WANT TO GET OUT HERE IS THAT I THINK THAT WE SPEND FAR TOO MUCH TIME, ESPECIALLY IN THE MEDIA, TALKING SOLELY ABOUT POLITICAL PARTIES AND POLITICAL PARTY LEADERS, AND NOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO PUT THEM THERE, AND ABOUT THE POWER THAT EVERYDAY PEOPLE HAVE TO FORCE CHANGE EVERY SINGLE DAY, BECAUSE THAT CHANGE, POLITICS, DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN EVERY THREE YEARS WITH A GENERAL ELECTION. AND THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT YOU WILL SEE FROM THE GREENS IN THE COMING THREE YEARS, UNDER AND IN RESPONSE TO THIS INCREDIBLY REACTIONARY, CRUEL GOVERNMENT, IS WE WILL BE MOBILISING PEOPLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THAT AGENDA. IN NOVEMBER LAST YEAR, SPEAKING TO A CROWD OF SUPPORTERS, YOU LED THE CHANT, 'FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE.' AT THE TIME YOU USED THAT PHRASE, WERE YOU AWARE THAT MANY JEWISH PEOPLE CONSIDER IT DEEPLY INFLAMMATORY, HATEFUL AND OFFENSIVE? SO, IF I MAY UNPACK THE CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS THAT LED UP TO MY UTILISATION OF THAT STATEMENT, WE HAD PREVIOUSLY HEARD AT THAT RALLY FROM DAYENU ` DAYENU IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM THE JEWISH DIASPORA WHO ARE OPPOSED TO THE OCCUPATION AND THE GENOCIDE THAT IS CURRENTLY PLAYING OUT IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES. WE HAD A MEMBER OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY SPEAKING TO THEIR LIFE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING FELT AS THOUGH THEY, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, WERE INDOCTRINATED AND FELT AS THOUGH THEY HAD IDEOLOGICAL BLINDERS ON AND HAD FEAR OF THAT STATEMENT ALONGSIDE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND THAT IN COMING TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND UNDERSTAND WHAT HAD OCCURRED AND THE HISTORY OF, FOR EXAMPLE, 1948 WITH THE NAKBA AND THE DISPLACEMENT OF THE BETTER PART OF A MILLION PEOPLE, THE MANY DEATHS AND DEVASTATION THAT CAME WITH THAT, THAT THEY CAME TO UNDERSTAND THAT PALESTINIAN FREEDOM AND LIBERATION DID NOT HAVE A PREREQUISITE OF VIOLENCE, AND THAT TO HOLD TO THAT VIEW THAT PALESTINE WILL BE FREE OR FREEDOM FOR PALESTINIANS SOMEHOW INVOLVES VIOLENCE IS AN INCREDIBLY RACIST AND PROBLEMATIC TROPE. SO, THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHEN YOU USED THAT PHRASE, WERE YOU AWARE THAT MANY JEWISH PEOPLE CONSIDER THAT TO BE A HATEFUL AND INFLAMMATORY PHRASE? AND I TAKE MY LEAD FROM PALESTINIAN AND JEWISH PEACE ACTIVISTS. THAT DOESN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION. WERE YOU AWARE THAT MANY JEWISH PEOPLE CONSIDER THAT TO BE A HATEFUL AND INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT? YES, JACK, I AM AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MANY DIFFERING VIEWS ON THIS. SO AT THE TIME YOU USED THAT STATEMENT, YOU WERE AWARE THAT MANY IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY CONSIDERED IT INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL ` NOT NECESSARILY THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, BUT THAT MANY IN THAT COMMUNITY CONSIDER IT INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL. WHEN YOU USED THAT PHRASE, YOU WERE AWARE OF THAT? YES, AND I WANT TO TALK TO THE BROADER CONTEXT, JACK. OK. NO, NO, WE'LL BRING UP THE BROADER CONTEXT. YOUR COLLEAGUE RICARDO MENENDEZ-MARCH USED THE PHRASE ON SOCIAL MEDIA BACK IN 2021, AND YOU WERE TAGGED IN THE POST AT THE TIME. ACCORDING TO THE NEW ZEALAND JEWISH COUNCIL, AFTER THEY EXPRESSED THEIR CONCERNS, YOU UNTAGGED YOURSELF FROM THAT POST, IS THAT CORRECT? I DON'T RECALL. IS IT TRUE THAT AFTER THEY EXPRESSED CONCERNS, YOU MET WITH STUDENTS AND TEACHERS AT THE KADIMAH JEWISH SCHOOL IN YOUR AUCKLAND CENTRAL ELECTORATE? YES. PEOPLE WITH KNOWLEDGE OF THAT MEETING SAY YOU WERE TOLD BY THE SCHOOL IN YOUR ELECTORATE THAT THAT PHRASE WAS INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL, AND COULD EVEN BE INTERPRETED AS CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. IS THAT CORRECT? AT THAT MEETING. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO RECALL THE SPECIFICS OF THAT, BUT I ALSO RECALL THAT I CONTINUED TO HOLD TRUE TO THE KAUPAPA THAT PALESTINIAN FREEDOM IS NECESSARY IF WE ARE TO HAVE LONG-STANDING PEACE AND JUSTICE. I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS OPPOSING THAT STATEMENT. IT'S WHETHER OR NOT USING THE PHRASE THAT YOU CHOSE TO USE COULD BE INTERPRETED AS BEING INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL. SO I WANT TO KNOW WHEN YOU HAD THE MEETING WITH THE KADIMAH SCHOOL IN AUCKLAND CENTRAL, PEOPLE WITH KNOWLEDGE OF THAT MEETING SAY YOU WERE TOLD IT WAS INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL. WHAT DO YOU RECALL? I RECALL THAT THAT WAS` YES, ALONG THOSE LINES, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE VIEWS THAT WERE EXPRESSED, BUT, JACK` NO, NO, NO. HANG ON. THE GREEN PARTY HAS LONG EXPRESSED CONCERNS ABOUT HATE SPEECH. GIVEN THE WIDESPREAD AND EXTREMELY WELL-DOCUMENTED CONCERNS WITH THE TERM THAT YOU USED, DO YOU BELIEVE IT WAS HATE SPEECH? NO. AND IF I MAY HAVE A MOMENT TO UNPACK PRECISELY THAT, AS I WAS ALLUDING TO BEFORE, I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC AND INTENTIONAL MISUNDERSTANDING THAT IS BEING PAINTED ACROSS THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HERE, WHEREBY THERE IS SOME PRESUPPOSITION THAT FREEDOM FOR PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING UNDER OCCUPATION FOR DECADES NOW AND ARE PRESENTLY BEING SUBJUGATED TO A GENOCIDE ` WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN MURDERED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, APPROXIMATELY HALF OF THEM CHILDREN ` AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ADVOCATING FOR THEIR FREEDOM, AND THAT FREEDOM IS BEING PAINTED SOMEHOW AS VIOLENCE. NO, SEE, THIS IS THE PROBLEM, RIGHT? YOU HAD AN OPTION WHEN YOU WERE THERE, WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING IN PUBLIC, YOU HAD BEEN WARNED BY JEWISH PEOPLE THAT THE PHRASE COULD BE INTERPRETED AS BEING INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL. YOU'D GONE TO A MEETING WITH A JEWISH SCHOOL IN YOUR ELECTORATE, IN WHICH PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN ELECTORATE HAD SAID THAT TERM COULD BE INTERPRETED AS BEING INFLAMMATORY AND HATEFUL, AND YET YOU CHOSE TO USE IT. YOU COULD HAVE USED AN UNAMBIGUOUSLY NON-OFFENSIVE TERM IN SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE. 'TWO-FOUR-SIX-EIGHT, PALESTINE SHOULD HAVE A STATE.' IT IS NOT SO COMPLICATED. BUT YOU CHOSE IN THAT MOMENT TO USE A TERM THAT IS INTERPRETED BY MANY AS BEING HATEFUL. AND PERHAPS THAT DISCOMFORT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD LEAN INTO. BECAUSE, AGAIN, I THINK THAT NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH FOCUS HAS BEEN PAID TO THE GENOCIDE WHICH IS LITERALLY PLAYING OUT RIGHT NOW AND IS DECIMATING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. WHEN YOU SAY THAT DISCOMFORT SHOULD BE LEANED INTO, IN WHAT WAY? HOW DO YOU MEAN? IN THE SENSE THAT THERE IS FAR MORE FOCUS ON A STATEMENT THAN THERE IS ON THE VIOLENCE THAT IS PLAYING OUT AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. BUT THAT'S ON YOU. YOU USED THE STATEMENT WITH KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE STATEMENT WOULD BE INTERPRETED. SO I SEE THAT YOU HAD JUSTIFIED IT BY SAYING YOU TAKE YOUR LEAD FROM PEACE ADVOCATES, AND JEWISH PEACE ADVOCATES. BY THAT LOGIC, IF I WERE TO PUBLICLY USE A TERM WHICH SOME PEOPLE IN THE RAINBOW COMMUNITY THOUGHT WAS HATEFUL, BUT A FEW OF MY GAY FRIENDS SAID WAS HARMLESS, ARE YOU SAYING THAT WOULD BE OK, BY THAT LOGIC? I THINK THAT THAT'S AN INCREDIBLY REDUCTIVE WAY TO PROGRESS THIS ARGUMENT, JACK, BECAUSE IF I MAY AGAIN` BUT IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME LOGIC. NO, BUT THE LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE OF WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR HERE, FOR ME TO BACK DOWN FROM UTILISATION OF A STATEMENT WHICH IS USED THE WORLD OVER ` AND MIGHT I SAY THE PUSHBACK AGAINST HAS BEEN USED TO SILENCE ADVOCATES FOR PALESTINIAN FREEDOM ` IS THAT I WOULD THEN BE EXPOSING ADVOCATES, ACTIVISTS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY IN THEIR USE OF THAT STATEMENT WHEN THEY ARE COMING TO RALLIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO ADVOCATE FOR PALESTINIAN FREEDOM. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THE SEMANTICS OF THAT STATEMENT. I AM INTERESTED IN USING THE PRIVILEGE OF MY PLATFORM TO ADVOCATE FOR FREEDOM OF PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, LEAST OF ALL AGAINST THE GENOCIDE THAT IS PRESENTLY PLAYING OUT AGAINST THEM. 'I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THE SEMANTICS OF THAT STATEMENT' ` THAT GOES AGAINST THIS STATEMENT OF CHLOE SWARBRICK, MAY 17 2019 ` 'WORDS HAVE CONSEQUENCES.' WORDS DO CONSEQUENCES. I AGREE WITH THAT. AND I'M GRAPPLING WITH THOSE CONSEQUENCES, INCLUDING RIGHT NOW IN HAVING THIS DISCUSSION WITH YOU, JACK. AND I HOLD TRUE TO THE FACT THAT WE SHOULD LEAN INTO THAT DISCOMFORT AND WE SHOULD INTERROGATE IT. WHY IS IT THAT THAT STATEMENT OF PALESTINIAN FREEDOM CAUSES SO MUCH DISCOMFORT? BECAUSE, IN FACT, I BELIEVE THAT IN INTERROGATING THAT` BECAUSE PEOPLE INTERPRET IT AS CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. AND THAT'S AN INTERPRETATION THAT WE SHOULD INTERROGATE WHOLESALE. IS IT CORRECT YOU ATTENDED MEDIATION WITH THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION? AS IT'S BEEN REPORTED, BUT AGAIN, I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT HERE TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION PROCESSES ARE CONFIDENTIAL. WHAT WAS THE RESULT? CAN YOU TELL US THAT MUCH? I CAN'T DISCLOSE THAT, JACK. IT'S A CONFIDENTIAL PROCESS. OK. 2� YEARS REMAIN IN THIS PARLIAMENTARY TERM. YOU TALKED ABOUT THE POWER OF MOVEMENTS EVEN OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT. WHAT WILL BE THE PRIMARY CLIMATE OR ENVIRONMENTAL FOCUS FOR YOUR PARTY OVER THE REMAINDER OF THIS TERM? SO, I THINK THAT WE ONLY NEED TO LOOK AT THE GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA TO HAVE REALLY CLEAR CLUES OF WHAT THE WORK IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO AND WHAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MOBILISE, UNFORTUNATELY, PARTICULARLY AGAINST. AND ONE OF THE KEY PIECES OF THAT AGENDA IS, OF COURSE, ROLLING BACK` OR RATHER THE GOVERNMENT'S INTENTION TO RESTART OIL AND GAS DRILLING IN FOR EXAMPLE, MAUI DOLPHIN HABITATS. SO WE ARE GOING TO SEE, I THINK, A MASSIVE MOBILISATION OF PEOPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY. WE'VE ALSO ALREADY SEEN IT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE MOVEMENT FOR UNITY AGAINST THIS GOVERNMENT'S VERY DIVISIVE APPROACH TO ATTEMPTING TO REWRITE TE TIRITI AS WELL. WHAT CAN PEOPLE EXPECT TO SEE FROM THE GREEN PARTY IN RESPONSE TO THAT BILL, ONCE IT'S INTRODUCED? I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO ACTUALLY RECONCILE WITH THE REALITY THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A LOT TO FIGHT FOR BEFORE THAT BILL IS INTRODUCED. AND ONE THING THAT I WAS REALLY HEARTENED BY UP AT WAITANGI OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS WAS JUST HOW UNIFIED PEOPLE ARE AGAINST THAT DIVISIVE AGENDA. YOU KNOW, I FIND IT REALLY FASCINATING THAT WE HAVE THE ACT PARTY AND OBVIOUSLY THIS GOVERNMENT GOING AFTER TINO RANGATIRATANGA, HE WHAKAPUTANGA AND TE TIRITI O WAITANGI, WHICH TO ME REPRESENTS A PHENOMENAL PATHWAY FOR SYSTEMS CHANGE FOR US AS A COUNTRY, NOT ONLY OBVIOUSLY TO UPHOLD OUR INTERNATIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES, LET ALONE OUR DOMESTIC ONES WITH REGARD TO INDIGENOUS RIGHTS, BUT ALSO TO ADDRESSING THE DUAL CRISES OF CLIMATE AND INEQUALITY. THAT'S CHLOE SWARBRICK. PARTY MEMBER ALEX FOULKES HAS ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY FOR CO-LEADERSHIP. NOMINATIONS CLOSE ON WEDNESDAY, WITH A RESULT TO BE ANNOUNCED ON MARCH 10TH. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT ME OR THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI ` YOU CAN EMAIL US; YOU CAN FIND US ON X OR ON FACEBOOK. COMING UP ` WELLINGTON'S WATER RESTRICTIONS REMAIN IN PLACE. BUT JUST WAIT UNTIL WE TELL YOU JUST HOW MANY LEAKS ARE CURRENTLY DRAINING OUR CAPITAL CITY. THERE'VE BEEN RENEWED CALLS FOR INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONERS TO OVERSEE WELLINGTON CITY COUNCIL, AS FRUSTRATION GROWS OVER THE HANDLING OF WELLINGTON'S WATER ISSUES. THE COUNCIL INSISTS IT'S ON TOP OF THE ISSUE. REPORTER WHENA OWEN SHORTENED HER SHOWERS AND DONNED HER GUMMIES TO GAUGE THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM. ANOTHER DAY, ANOTHER LEAK ` THIS ONE IN WADESTOWN HAS BEEN DRIBBLING AWAY FOR A WEEK, BUT GOT WORSE OVERNIGHT. AND HERE COME THE ROAD CONES. WELLINGTON PEDESTRIANS ARE USED TO THE PUDDLES. SOMEWHERE ALONG MY ROUTE, I'LL SEE A NEW LEAK POP UP. THERE'S BEEN ONE FURTHER UP; THERE'S BEEN A COUPLE IN THE ZIGZAG. SO YOU NEED TO WEAR GUMBOOTS TO WORK, REALLY, DON'T YOU? I'M JUST, LIKE, ALL THIS LEAKING WATER! STANDING HERE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY HEAR THE SOUND OF THE WATER JUST BELOW THE TAR SEAL. LISTEN TO THIS. (WATER RUSHES) THIS LEAK IS ONE OF AROUND 1770 LEAKS RIGHT NOW IN WELLINGTON CITY AND SUBURBS. WE'LL CHECK IN LATER IN THE DAY TO SEE IF THIS ONE'S BEEN PRIORITISED. THE START OF THIS YEAR, IT CERTAINLY FELT LIKE A WATER CRISIS. YOU DON'T THINK IT'S A WATER CRISIS? I DON'T. WELLINGTON'S MAYOR, TORY WHANAU, IS UPBEAT. SHE SAYS HER MEETING WITH MINISTER SIMEON BROWN WENT WELL, THE CITY HAS STAVED OFF FURTHER WATER RESTRICTIONS, AND THE COUNCIL HAS THROWN $2.5M AT FIXING LEAKS OVER SUMMER AND COME UP WITH A LONG-TERM PLAN TO TACKLE AND FINANCE ITS WATER NETWORK PROBLEMS ` PROBLEMS THAT WHANAU INSISTS HAVEN'T BEEN IGNORED BY COUNCIL IN THE PAST. WE'VE REALLY PUT IT TO THE TOP OF OUR PRIORITY LIST FOR THIS YEAR, MOVING FORWARD. SO YOU THINK YOU WERE PRIORITISING IT? WE WERE, IN THE BACKGROUND ` YES. YOU WERE. SO IT WASN'T A CASE OF YOU THINK, 'WELL, THREE WATERS IS COMING TO SAVE US ` WE'LL RELY ON THAT, 'SO WE'LL JUST SPEND A BIT MORE MONEY ON CYCLEWAYS'? NO. NO, NO, NO. I MEAN, THAT INVESTMENT WITH CYCLEWAYS WAS ALWAYS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN, BUT I THINK WE WERE HOPING THAT WE WOULD HAVE WIDER REFORM AND BE ABLE TO PUT WATER INFRASTRUCTURE OFF OUR BALANCE SHEET. THE CEO OF MASTER PLUMBERS NZ, GREG WALLIS, RECKONS THE ORDER IS WRONG ` CYCLEWAYS WILL NEED TO BE RIPPED UP, AT A COST, IN ORDER TO REPLACE THE AGEING PIPE NETWORK. HE'S OFFERED UP AN ARMY OF PRIVATE CONTRACTORS TO HELP WITH THE LEAKS, BUT BEEN REJECTED. SO, WE'VE GOT SOLUTIONS, AND WE WANNA WORK WITH THE COUNCIL, BUT WE'RE ALSO FRUSTRATED THAT WE'RE HAVING TO SEE THIS ACROSS OUR CITY. I THINK THE COUNCIL IS GUILTY OF DITHERING ON THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT. I THINK THAT THEY COULD HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS IN FRONT OF THEM AND THE NEED FOR ACTION. DARRAN PONTER HEADS WELLINGTON REGIONAL COUNCIL, WHICH PROVIDES DRINKING WATER TO THE FOUR COUNCILS IN THE REGION, UP TO 45% OF WHICH IS LOST IN LEAKS. ALTHOUGH THE COUNCILS HAVE ALL RECENTLY MADE THE RIGHT NOISES ABOUT PRIORITISING INFRASTRUCTURE, HE STILL SEES A NEED FOR WELLINGTON CITY COUNCIL'S AFFAIRS TO BE EXTERNALLY MONITORED. I DO THINK THAT THEY COULD BENEFIT FROM AN OBSERVER WHO COULD BETTER GUIDE THEM. OBSERVER AND COMMISSIONER ` THAT HAS JUST BEEN RAISED BY, WELL, I DON'T KNOW ` IT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE MINISTER, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT US. IT'S BEEN RAISED BY THE CHAIR OF THE REGIONAL COUNCIL. YEAH, AND I'VE SAID PUBLICLY THAT HE'S COMPLETELY WRONG. GREG WALLIS HAS TAKEN IT A STEP FURTHER ` THIS WEEKEND HE'S WRITTEN TO SIMEON BROWN, ASKING HIM TO CALL AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONERS. I DON'T THINK THE COUNCIL AND WELLINGTON WATER ARE TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY ENOUGH TO REALISE THE EFFECT ON THAT CITY ` WE CAN'T OPERATE A CITY WITHOUT WATER. ACROSS THE LEAKY CITY, WE'RE WITH THOSE WHO HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT. (GASPS) IT'S BEEN RUNNING ALL THE WAY DOWN THE ALLEYWAY THERE, HERE AT ISLAND BAY. IT SEEMS EVERY WELLINGTONIANS GOT THEIR OWN WATER-LEAK STORY, INCLUDING ME. ON A SCORCHING HOT DAY A FEW WEEKS AGO, I TURN ON THE TAPS ` NO WATER. TO REPORT A NEW WATER OR DRAINAGE FAULT, PRESS 1. WELLINGTON CITY COUNCIL TELL ME IT'S A BURST PIPE ACROSS THE SUBURB. I GET THERE BEFORE THE WELLINGTON WATER CREW. IT'S ALREADY BEEN RUNNING LIKE THIS FOR A FEW HOURS. MAY BE THE CAUSE OF IT ` A BIT OF TAR SEA HAS ERUPTED. LOOK AT THAT. AND ALL THAT WATER'S COMING THROUGH. WELLINGTON WATER ARRIVES. EVENTUALLY THEY'RE ABLE TO PLUG THE LEAK, AND THAT'S GREAT, SORT OF. ULTIMATELY, WE'RE JUST BAND-AIDING A SYSTEM THAT'S GONNA TO CONTINUE TO LEAK AND LEAK, AND THIS CITY IS GOING TO BE AT RISK OF RUNNING OUT OF WATER. WHEN YOU SAY FIX THE LEAKS, MAYOR, YOU REALLY MEAN PATCH THE LEAKS, DON'T YOU? YEAH, BUT, YOU KNOW, MAINTENANCE, PATCHING UP THE PIPES, BUT DEFINITELY NEED, AND THAT'S WHAT CAN BE DONE IN THE SHORT TERM. IT WOULD BE BETTER TO COMPLETELY REPLACE THE PIPES, WHICH IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN PLACES LIKE TARANAKI ST. BUT THAT IS GONNA TAKE YEARS TO COMPLETE. AND A TON OF MONEY. MUCH OF IT WILL COME FROM RATES. AND THE COUNCIL WILL VOTE NEXT WEEK ON WHAT CAPITAL PROJECTS THEY'LL PAUSE. THE COUNCIL'S ONE OF SIX THAT FUND WELLINGTON WATER. VERY TRICKY SUMMER. WELLINGTON WATER'S CEO, TONIA HASKELL. WE'VE GOT PEOPLE WHO ARE, RIGHTLY, FRUSTRATED THAT WE'RE ASKING THEM TO CONSERVE WATER, WHEN THEY SEE IT RUNNING DOWN THE STREET. AND, YOU KNOW, WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THAT'S A REALLY TOUGH THING TO DO. BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THINGS, I'M SEEING SOME GREAT RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PUTTING THEIR SHOWER HEAD IN A BUCKET, WHILE THE SHOWER WARMS UP. BUT YOU NEED MORE MONEY TO FIX THE LEAKS. ULTIMATELY, WE'RE LOOKING FOR MORE FUNDING. THE REGIONAL COUNCIL PLANNED TO BUILD MORE WATER-STORAGE LAKES, BUT WON'T DO IT, ITS CHAIR SAYS, UNTIL COUNCILS GET ON TO THE LEAKS AND BRING IN WATER METRES. THE PUBLIC ARE HAVING TO DO WHAT COUNCILS ARE DOING, AND THAT IS FACE THE REALITY OF THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES. AND CARRYING ON AS WE ARE IS PROBABLY JUST NOT TENABLE. BACK WHERE WE STARTED THIS MORNING AT THE WADESTOWN LEAK, IT'S ALL DRY. WELLINGTON WATER HAVE BEEN AND GONE AND LEFT THEIR PITCH. WHENA OWEN REPORTING THERE. IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, ON WAITANGI DAY, WE PUT TOGETHER A SPECIAL EPISODE OF Q+A, CONSIDERING THE GOVERNMENT'S IMPENDING BILL ON THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI. YOU CAN SEE IT BY LOOKING UP THE Q+A PAGE ON TVNZ+. AFTER THE BREAK ` IMAGINE IF KIWI COMEDIAN TOM SAINSBURY WENT FROM MOCKING OUR POLITICIANS TO LEADING OUR COUNTRY THROUGH A BLOODY WAR. YES, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY HAS LIVED AN EXTRAORDINARY LIFE, BUT IS HIS INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT RUNNING OUT? (CELL PHONE RINGS) HELLO? GOOD MORNING, MR GOLOBOROSHKO. CAN I CONNECT YOU WITH ANGELA MERKEL? YES, YOU CAN CONNECT. HELLO. MY CONGRATULATIONS. WE DECIDED TO TAKE YOUR COUNTRY TO THE EUROPEAN UNION. OH (BLEEP)! I AM SORRY. OH WOW! WHOO! I AM SO HAPPY. YES! (BEETHOVEN'S 'ODE TO JOY') THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ALL THE UKRAINIANS AND ALL OF OUR COUNTRY, WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS, SO MUCH TIME. UKRAINIANS? YES, UKRAINIANS. OH, I AM SO SORRY. THAT'S A MISTAKE. I WAS CALLING MONTENEGRO. (MUSIC FADES) FROM SATIRISING HIS COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT TO TAKING THE REINS FOR REAL AS A WARTIME LEADER, UKRAINE PRESIDENT VOLODOMYR ZELENSKYY HAS LIVED AN EXTRAORDINARY LIFE. BUT ALMOST TWO YEARS SINCE THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE, THIS WEEK ZELENSKYY FIRED HIS ARMY CHIEF IN THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SHAKE-UP SINCE THE WAR BEGAN. TIME MAGAZINE CORRESPONDENT SIMON SHUSTER HAS COVERED PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IN DEPTH, IN HIS NEW BOOK. I ASKED HIM WHAT THE SACKING OF GENERAL VALERII ZALUZHNYI MEANS. WELL, THIS DECISION HAD BEEN A LONG TIME COMING. THE TENSIONS BETWEEN THESE TWO MEN BEGAN TO EMERGE, REALLY, IN THE FIRST MONTHS OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION IN 2022, AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY DEVELOPED HIS OWN IDEAS AND PRIORITIES FOR HOW TO FIGHT THIS WAR ON THE BATTLEFIELD. WHERE TO ATTACK, WHEN TO ATTACK, HOW TO USE UKRAINE'S LIMITED MILITARY RESOURCES. AND THEY WERE NOT ALWAYS ALIGNED WITH THE IDEAS OF THE GENERAL, OF HOW TO USE THOSE RESOURCES AND HOW TO PUSH THE RUSSIANS BACK. SO THE CLASHES BETWEEN THEM WERE PLAYING OUT BEHIND THE SCENES. I WAS HEARING ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME ` INSIDE THE PRESIDENTIAL COMPOUND, INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION, I WAS HEARING ABOUT THE TENSIONS FROM THE MILITARY COMMANDERS, AND THEY WERE QUITE DISTRACTING, I WOULD SAY. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE IS HOPE NOW THAT THE HIERARCHY OF THE STATE UNDER PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY MAY WORK MORE SMOOTHLY, NOW THAT THESE TENSIONS HAVE BEEN SET ASIDE. LUCKILY, THERE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE ANY TENSION REMAINING AFTER THE GENERAL WAS DISMISSED. THEY PUT OUT IMAGES OF THEM SHAKING HANDS AND EVEN EMBRACING, SO IT SEEMS LIKE THEY HAVE SET ASIDE THE BAD BLOOD. TAKE US BACK A COUPLE OF YEARS. YOU FIRST BEGAN SPENDING TIME WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY A FEW MONTHS BEFORE HE WAS APPOINTED. AS SOMEONE WHO HAD BUILT HIS REPUTATION AS AN ANTI-PERKS EVERYMAN, HOW DID HE TRANSITION INTO POWER? HE KIND OF STUMBLED INTO IT. WHEN I MET HIM IN THE SPRING OF 2019, HE WAS STILL A COMEDIAN, A COUPLE OF MONTHS INTO HIS PRESIDENTIAL RUN, AND I MET HIM BACKSTAGE OF HIS COMEDY SHOW, ACTUALLY ` HIS COMEDY SHOW IN KYIV ` AND WE WENT BACKSTAGE AFTER THE SHOW TO HIS DRESSING ROOM TO TALK, AND I ASKED HIM THE BASIC QUESTIONS OF WHAT HE INTENDED TO DO, HOW HE INTENDED TO ADDRESS THE VERY GRAVE CHALLENGES THAT UKRAINE FACED AT THE TIME, DEALING WITH THEN-PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE, TRYING TO NEGOTIATE WITH PUTIN IN THE KREMLIN. AND HE DIDN'T HAVE VERY CLEAR IDEAS. HE SEEMED QUITE NAIVE IN HIS ABILITY, AS HE PUT IT TO ME, TO FIGURE IT OUT. HE SAID, 'DON'T WORRY, SIMON, 'WE'LL FIND PROFESSIONALS WHO CAN GIVE ME GOOD ADVICE, 'AND I'LL CERTAINLY DO A BETTER JOB 'THAN THESE GUYS WHO HAVE BEEN IN POWER BEFORE ME.' SO THAT WAS KIND OF HIS ATTITUDE ` VERY HAPPY-GO-LUCKY, VERY OPTIMISTIC, QUITE A BIT OF NAIVETE THERE TOO. THAT WAS THE MAN I MET. BUT HIS EVOLUTION, HIS TRANSFORMATION INTO THE KIND OF STEELY WARTIME LEADER WE SEE TODAY IS REALLY QUITE DRAMATIC AND MAYBE UNIQUE TO HISTORY. HOW DID THOSE DRAMATIC EARLY STAGES OF THE INVASION AFFECT HIM PERSONALLY? WELL, HIS PERSONAL LIFE ` ONE THING I SHOULD SAY IS THAT HIS WIFE AND THEIR CHILDREN HAD TO FLEE KYIV, AND THEY WENT ON THE RUN INSIDE UKRAINE, MOVING BETWEEN A NUMBER OF SAFE HOUSES, SURROUNDED BY ARMED GUARDS ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO HIDE FROM POTENTIAL AIR ATTACKS, BOMBARDMENT, IN BASEMENTS AND SHELTERS. SO HE WAS IMMEDIATELY SEPARATED FROM HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN, AND HE WENT TO LIVE, HIMSELF, FOR THE MOST PART, IN A NUCLEAR BUNKER UNDERNEATH THE PRESIDENTIAL COMPOUND IN KYIV. HIS LIFE BECAME, WELL, A SERIES OF MEETINGS, PHONE CALLS, TO TRY TO CONVINCE THE WEST, THE WESTERN WORLD AND THE WORLD AT LARGE TO STAY BY UKRAINE'S SIDE. HE BECAME THIS KIND OF WARTIME DIPLOMAT, AND A WARTIME LEADER. AT FIRST HE LEFT THE FIGHTING MOSTLY TO THE GENERALS. BUT PERSONALLY, HE WAS LIVING IN THESE VERY CRAMPED QUARTERS. AS ONE OF HIS AIDES DESCRIBED IT TO ME, IT FELT LIKE A SUBMARINE IN ENEMY WATERS. AND AM I RIGHT IN THINKING HE WAS PARTICULARLY SKILLED IN RALLYING INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, AT LEAST IN THOSE EARLY STAGES? YEAH, I THINK THE SKILLS THAT HE DEVELOPED OVER 20 YEARS IN ENTERTAINMENT AND SHOW BUSINESS DID HELP HIM RALLY SUPPORT IN A WAY THAT I THINK OTHER LEADERS WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO. AND I'M TALKING IN PARTICULAR ABOUT HIS TENDENCY TO SPEAK NOT ONLY TO OTHER HEADS OF STATE OVER THESE KIND OF SECURE-LINE TELEPHONE CHANNELS THAT THEY OFTEN USE TO COMMUNICATE, BUT HE, ZELENSKYY, ONCE THE INVASION WAS UNDERWAY, TRIED TO SPEAK TO ALL OF US, TO THE VOTERS WHO ELECTED THOSE LEADERS IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES. HE SPOKE, YOU KNOW, AT THE GRAMMY AWARDS. HE SPOKE DIRECTLY TO LARGE GATHERINGS OF PEOPLE IN EUROPEAN CAPITALS, USING A KIND OF LARGE VIDEO SCREEN, AND HE WOULD APPEAR BEFORE THEM AND ADDRESS THEM AND TRY TO INSPIRE THEM TO BUILD PRESSURE FROM THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL THAT WOULD MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEIR ELECTED LEADERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES TO TURN AWAY FROM UKRAINE AND NOT PROVIDE THE SUPPORT UKRAINE NEEDED. SO THAT KIND OF SHOWMANSHIP, THAT ABILITY TO REALLY ROUSE EMOTIONS, TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING QUITE UNIQUE THAT HE BROUGHT TO THIS WAR EFFORT, AND IT REALLY, I BELIEVE, HELPED UKRAINE SURVIVE. SIMON, IT'S COMMON THAT DURING WARTIME CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE ERODED. ZELENSKYY'S GOVERNMENT HAS SUSPENDED SEVERAL RIVAL POLITICAL PARTIES, TAKEN TV CHANNELS OFF AIR, AND BECAUSE OF THE ONGOING STATE OF MARTIAL LAW, FOR NOW, THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS HAVE BEEN INDEFINITELY POSTPONED. I KNOW THAT THE CONFLICT IS ROUTINELY FRAMED AS ONE OF UKRAINIAN DEMOCRACY VERSUS RUSSIAN AUTOCRACY. HOW WOULD YOU ASSESS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY? I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE ALL HAVE TO WATCH. I MEAN, HIS POSITION IS VERY CLEAR WHEN WE'VE DISCUSSED THIS. YOU KNOW, HE SAYS, LOOK AT THE UKRAINIAN CONSTITUTION, LOOK AT THE WORDING OF MARTIAL LAW ` THAT IS A DOCUMENT; THAT IS A LAW. AND IT LAYS OUT THAT UNDER... DURING WARTIME, THE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO CONTROL THE AIRWAVES. HE USES THAT ABILITY TO WAGE THE INFORMATION WAR. AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, I THINK MORE THAN MOST LEADERS, UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORTANCE OF, AGAIN, WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS THROUGH THE INFORMATION WAR. AND HE WANTS TO USE EVERY INSTRUMENT AVAILABLE TO HIM. SO IN TERMS OF CONTROLLING THE MEDIA INSIDE UKRAINE, HE'S ADAMANT THAT THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN AS LONG AS THE WAR IS GOING ON. HE SAYS, QUITE SIMPLY, 'LOOK, I'M COMMITTED TO DEMOCRACY. 'WHEN THE WAR ENDS, WHEN WE ACHIEVE VICTORY, 'WE LIFT MARTIAL LAW AND WE GO BACK TO EUROPEAN DEMOCRATIC NORMS 'AND INSTITUTIONS, AS BEFORE.' I THINK... I END THE BOOK ON A NOTE OF CONCERN, MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THE HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS. SO ABSOLUTE POWER IS DIFFICULT TO PART WITH, AND IT ALWAYS BECOMES QUITE INTOXICATING. SO I THINK IT'LL BE A CHALLENGE FOR HIM TO GO BACK TO DEMOCRACY AS NORMAL, TO GIVE BACK CONTROL OF THE AIRWAVES TO PRIVATE OWNERS THAT CAN CRITICISE HIM AGAIN, AS THEY DID BEFORE THE INVASION STARTED. I THINK THAT'LL BE A FRAUGHT TRANSITION, BUT IT'S ONE I THINK HE'S COMMITTED TO CARRYING OUT AFTER UKRAINE ACHIEVES ITS VICTORY. SIMON, YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE UKRAINIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVE OVER THE NORTHERN SUMMER ESSENTIALLY FAILED, AND MANY ANALYSTS SEE THE WAR AS NOW BEING IN A STALEMATE OF SORTS. HOW DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY VIEWS HIS COUNTRY'S PROSPECTS FROM THIS POINT? WILL HE BE PREPARED TO COMPROMISE WHEN IT COMES TO TERRITORY? AT THIS POINT, NO, THAT IS A NON-STARTER. THE MAIN REASON FOR THAT, I THINK, APART FROM HIS OWN COMMITMENT TO WINNING BACK ALL THE TERRITORY THAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE OCCUPIED, IS THAT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO ALL THE POLLING THAT WE'VE SEEN, VERY CONSISTENTLY, DO NOT WANT TO TRADE LAND FOR PEACE. I THINK IF PUBLIC OPINION WERE TO CHANGE ` AND THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL ` BUT IF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE WERE TO GROW SO EXHAUSTED WITH THE WAR THAT THEY DO BEGIN TO SAY IN PUBLIC OPINION POLLS THAT THEY ARE READY FOR THAT KIND OF COMPROMISE, THEN I THINK ZELENSKYY WOULD SHIFT. HE IS RESPONSIVE IN THAT WAY TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. I DON'T THINK HE'S DOGMATIC ON THAT QUESTION. IN MANY WAYS, THAT IS WHAT RUSSIA IS COUNTING ON ` FOR THE WAR TO EXHAUST THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, TO FORCE THEM INTO A COMPROMISE. SO ZELENSKYY IS DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO AVOID THAT, TO PREVENT IT. HE'S ALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW WAYS TO DEMONSTRATE VICTORIES, WHETHER IT'S THESE KIND OF DRONE ATTACKS DEEP BEHIND ENEMY LINES THAT WE'VE SEEN RECENTLY, WITH RUSSIAN OIL TERMINALS BLOWING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, SENDING THESE HUGE FIREBALLS INTO THE SKY. THESE ARE THE KINDS OF ATTACKS THAT ZELENSKYY FAVOURS, AND HE SEES THEM AS A WAY TO REMIND HIS PEOPLE AND THE WORLD THAT UKRAINE IS NOT GIVING UP, UKRAINE IS STILL FIGHTING. SO I THINK IN THE COMING MONTHS WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE OF THAT KIND OF ATTACK AND THAT FOCUS ON BEHIND-ENEMY-LINES, LONG-RANGE DRONE ATTACKS, MISSILE ATTACKS, THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT'S SIMON SHUSTER. HIS NEW BOOK IS 'THE SHOWMAN'. HEI AKUANEI ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, IT'S SO GOOD TO BE BACK, BUT FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024.