CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, NEW ZEALAND'S FIRST EVER MINISTER FOR MENTAL HEALTH. SHOULD WE AS NEW ZEALANDERS EXPECT THE SAME LEVEL OF SERVICES FOR MENTAL HEALTH AS WE DO FOR PHYSICAL HEALTH? OF COURSE. AND THIS HAS BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, THAT MENTAL HEALTH HAS BEEN THE POOR SECOND COUSIN TO PHYSICAL HEALTH. WE'LL LOOK AT THE DEMISE OF THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. AND WHAT WOULD THE END OF NEWSHUB MEAN FOR THE BROADER STATE OF NEWS JOURNALISM? I DON'T THINK THAT WARNER BROTHERS DISCOVERY CARES ABOUT THE NEW ZEALAND MARKET, AND IT MOST CERTAINLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE NEWS MARKET IN NEW ZEALAND. FOUR YEARS SINCE JACINDA ARDERN ANNOUNCED $1.9B TO IMPROVE MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, MANY IN THE SECTOR SAY THERE HAVE BEEN FEW, IF ANY, IMPROVEMENTS. BUT NOW, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, NEW ZEALAND HAS A MINISTER FOR MENTAL HEALTH. AND MATT DOOCEY COMES TO THE ROLE AFTER A CAREER IN THE MENTAL HEALTH SECTOR. WELL, IN MY LATE TEENS, I HAD A BAD CAR ACCIDENT WHERE I WAS THROWN OUT OF THE BACK WINDSCREEN OF A CAR AS IT FLIPPED END-ON END. I ACTUALLY ENDED UP RECEIVING HEAD INJURIES. I WAS IN HOSPITAL FOR A NUMBER OF WEEKS. AND WHAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING, GOING BACK TO SORT OF MIDDLE TO LATE '80S, WHEN I WAS DISCHARGED, I HAD A NUMBER OF FOLLOW-UP APPOINTMENTS, BUT THEY WERE ALL ABOUT BROKEN BONES. NO ONE EVER SAID TO ME, 'YOU'VE HAD A HELL OF A KNOCK TO YOUR HEAD. YOU SHOULD WATCH OUT.' AND SO WHAT HAPPENED OVER A COURSE OF A NUMBER OF YEARS ` NOW I KNOW I HAD THINGS LIKE ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION, BUT I STRUGGLED TO CONCENTRATE, I GOT FRUSTRATED VERY EASY, I WAS GETTING ANGRY, MORE AND MORE ISOLATED. THINGS WEREN'T GOING WELL. AND EVERYONE SAID, 'LOOK, YOU NEED TO GET SOME SUPPORT AROUND THIS.' SO, I WAS A A YOUNG BLOKE, AND I SORT OF REFUSED TO DO THAT FOR A WHILE, BUT IT GOT TO A POINT WHERE I NEEDED TO GET SOME HELP, AND I REACHED OUT, AND I ALWAYS SAY THAT WAS LIKE THE LIGHTBULB MOMENT. YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY DID I GET THE SUPPORT THAT HELPS ME TODAY, FORM A BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH MY MENTAL HEALTH, BUT I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, I WANT TO DO WHAT THAT PERSON DOES. SO I TRAINED IN COUNSELLING PSYCHOLOGY, WORKED IN NEW ZEALAND, AND THEN I WENT OVER FOR MY OE AND WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO WORK FOR THE NHS AND DID A NUMBER OF YEARS WITH THE NHS WHEN I WAS OVER THERE, PRIMARILY IN THE EAST END, WHICH WAS A REAL BLESSING, BECAUSE IT'S QUITE A HARD END OF THE SPECTRUM IN EAST END, BUT IT WAS A PLACE I GOT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE, REAL RICH EXPERIENCE FROM. WHY DOES NEW ZEALAND NEED A DEDICATED MINISTER FOR MENTAL HEALTH? YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, BECAUSE THE FIRST THING I'D SAY IS JUST GETTING A JOB DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. CLEARLY, I'LL BE MEASURED ABOUT WHAT I DO IN THIS JOB TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. BUT LOOK, WHEN WE WENT INTO OPPOSITION, I REMEMBER TALKING TO BILL ENGLISH, OUR LEADER AT THE TIME, SAYING I THINK IT'S TIME WE HAVE A STANDALONE MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER. HEALTH MINISTERS OF ALL COLOURS ARE GOING TO GET VERY DISTRACTED BY PHYSICAL HEALTH. MENTAL HEALTH HAS ALWAYS BEEN A POOR SECOND COUSIN TO PHYSICAL HEALTH. AND I LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, AND SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAD DONE IS CREATE A MENTAL HEALTH MINISTRY. I DIDN'T THINK WE NEED TO DO THAT. IT WOULD SILO MENTAL HEALTH MORE. BUT THERE'S A ROLE, ACTUALLY, THAT AUSTRALIA INTRODUCED A FEW YEARS AGO ` I THINK IT'S BEEN QUITE SUCCESSFUL ` A STANDALONE MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER THAT NOT ONLY WORKS WITHIN HEALTH BUT GOES INTO THE OTHER GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS. WHAT ARE WE DOING ABOUT BETTER MENTAL HEALTH IN EDUCATION, IN CORRECTIONS, IN SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND HOUSING AND SO ON AND SO ON? HOW MANY OF THE ACTIONS IN YOUR GOVERNMENT'S 100-DAY PLAN WERE FOCUSED ON MENTAL HEALTH? YEAH, THERE'S NOTHING ACTUALLY IN THAT 100-DAY PLAN FOR ANY OF MY PORTFOLIOS ` MENTAL HEALTH, ACC, TOURISM AND YOUTH, BUT` IS MENTAL HEALTH NOT... DOESN'T WARRANT PRIORITY STATUS? WELL, I THINK IT SENDS A VERY CLEAR SIGNAL THAT IT IS A PRIORITY` WHAT SENDS A CLEAR SIGNAL? WHEN YOU ESTABLISH NEW ZEALAND'S FIRST MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER. BUT NOT WHEN YOU HAVE IT IN THE 100-DAY PLAN. SO, MY FIRST 100 DAYS THAT I WANTED TO LOOK AT WAS SETTING UP THE ROLE. AND THEN GOING INTO GOVERNMENT, I WANTED TO LOOK UNDER THE HOOD. I WANT TO KNOW WHERE THAT $1.9 BILLION WENT. I WANT TO KNOW WHERE WE SPENT THE $2.5 BILLION RINGFENCED FUNDING EVERY YEAR FOR MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS. I WANTED TO WORK WITH OFFICIALS TO UNDERSTAND WHY DID THE LAST GOVERNMENT HAVE THE IMPLEMENTATION ISSUES THAT THEY DID? AND THEN ALSO, I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE CURRENT CAPACITY AND CAPABILITY OF THE SECTOR TO STAND UP SERVICES AND PROGRAMMES TO RESPOND TO THE GROWING NEED? SO THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS. LET'S START WITH SOME REAL BASICS, THEN. WHAT PUBLICLY FUNDED MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES SHOULD NEW ZEALANDERS EXPECT UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT? YEAH, WELL, I THINK WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE IS A PRIMARY MENTAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS IN PRETTY MUCH REAL TIME ` IN A MATTER OF A WEEK. AND THEN FOLLOWED FROM THAT, THOSE WHO NEED A SPECIALIST SERVICE, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS THAT WITHIN A NUMBER OF WEEKS AS WELL. WHAT I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO DO, THOUGH, WHICH IS THE REAL CRUX OF THE ISSUE IN NEW ZEALAND, WE HAVE SOME REAL CONSTRAINTS ABOUT OUR PUBLICLY FUNDED MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK ABOUT HOW WE GET SOME OF THAT MONEY OUT OF WELLINGTON INTO THE GRASSROOTS ORGANISATIONS WHO ARE ALREADY DELIVERING, AND WHEN I VISITED THEM, THEY TELL ME THEY'RE PRIMED FOR GROWTH. THEY'VE GOT A WORKFORCE SEPARATE TO THE PUBLICLY FUNDED MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM, AND WE CAN OFFSET SOME OF THAT DEMAND BY UTILISING OUR NGO AND COMMUNITY SECTOR. SO, IN ESSENCE, WE WOULD HAVE A COMMUNITY LEVEL SUPPORT, THEN A PRIMARY LEVEL SUPPORT AND AN ACUTE OR SPECIALIST LEVEL SUPPORT. VERY MUCH SO. SO SHOULD WE, AS NEW ZEALANDERS, EXPECT THE SAME LEVEL OF SERVICES FOR MENTAL HEALTH AS WE DO FOR PHYSICAL HEALTH? OF COURSE. AND THIS HAS BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, THAT MENTAL HEALTH HAS BEEN THE POOR SECOND COUSIN TO PHYSICAL HEALTH. AND I'LL TELL YOU WHAT ` THE ADDICTION SECTOR WILL TELL YOU THEY'VE BEEN A POOR COUSIN TO MENTAL HEALTH AS WELL. WE'VE GOT TO ELEVATE THAT, BECAUSE LOOK WHAT HAPPENS AT THE MOMENT AROUND MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS CALL-OUTS. IF YOU HAVE A PHYSICAL HEALTH CRISIS, YOU CALL 111, YOU GET A HEALTH RESPONSE. WHEN YOU CALL 111 WITH A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS, YOU GET A CRIMINAL JUSTICE RESPONSE. SO ACTUALLY WE'VE GOT TO RESPOND DIFFERENTLY TO MENTAL HEALTH, ENSURING WE GET PEOPLE A MENTAL HEALTH RESPONSE. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT HAS BEEN LACKING. ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT POLICE AREN'T GOING TO BE RESPONDING TO THOSE CALLS? WELL, WHAT I CAN SAY IS I'M THANKFUL FOR THE POLICE TO THE LEVEL OF RESPONSE THEY GIVE. WE DON'T WANT TO END UP LIKE IN THE UK, WHERE THE METROPOLITAN POLICE HAVE ISSUED AN INSTRUCTION THAT VERY SOON THEY WON'T BE GOING OUT TO MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS CALL-OUTS. BUT POLICE HAVE SAID THEY ARE GOING TO BE RESPONDING TO THOSE CALLS LESS THAN IN THE PAST. THAT'S ONE OF THE NEW FOCUSES. AND THAT'S A PIECE OF WORK THAT WE'VE GOT AT THE MOMENT TO LOOK AT WHAT I CALL THE CRISIS PATHWAY. WHAT ARE WE DOING WITHIN THE DISPATCH CENTRE? I'VE SAID QUITE OPENLY, MAYBE IT'S A TIME WE HAVE A FOURTH OPTION ` YOU CALL UP, YOU GET AMBULANCE, POLICE, FIRE OR MENTAL HEALTH. I THINK WE NEED TO TRIAGE BETTER THERE. AND THEN, BASED ON THE LEVEL OF RISK TO THAT PERSON AND PEOPLE AROUND THEM, IS THAT A POLICE AND A MENTAL HEALTH RESPONSE? MAYBE IT'S A MENTAL HEALTH RESPONSE, AND THEN WHERE DO WE TAKE THEM? IS IT SOLELY THE ED? OR AUSTRALIA IS DOING A LOT BETTER IN RESPITE CENTRES IN THE COMMUNITY. SOMETHING WE ALSO NEED TO DO IN NEW ZEALAND, I THINK, JACK, IS NOT ALL DISTRESS IS A MENTAL ILLNESS. SO SOME OF THOSE CALLS FOR MENTAL DISTRESS IS NOT ABOUT A MENTAL ILLNESS, EITHER. SO WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE RESPOND TO DISTRESS IN NEW ZEALAND AS WELL. I'LL TALK ABOUT THAT DISTINCTION A LITTLE BIT MORE IN A MOMENT. WORKFORCE SHORTAGES ARE MASSIVE, AS YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE MENTAL HEALTH SECTOR. WE HAVE A SHORTAGE OF NURSES, A SHORTAGE OF PSYCHIATRISTS AND OF COURSE OF PSYCHOLOGISTS AS WELL. IN FACT, BY SOME ESTIMATES, WE ARE 1000 PSYCHOLOGISTS SHORT IN NEW ZEALAND. IN YOUR ELECTION MANIFESTO, YOU PROMISED TO DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGISTS BEING TRAINED IN NEW ZEALAND TO 80 A YEAR. YEAH. HOW MANY WERE TRAINED LAST YEAR? I THINK WE'RE AT ABOUT 50 OR 60. WHAT'S REALLY CONCERNING TO ME AT THE MOMENT, JACK, IS THAT I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE WORKFORCE MODELLING. AND IT'D BE FAIR TO SAY IT'S NOT ACTUALLY THERE YET, BUT SOMETHING I WAS ABLE TO GET IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IS THAT THE DATA IS SHOWING WE ARE STARTING TO MOVE UP TO 70 OR 80 PSYCHOLOGISTS UNDER THE NEW CLINICAL INTERNSHIP HUB MODEL. I MEAN, THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH MADE IT CLEAR THAT THE 80 THAT YOU WANT TO SEE BEING TRAINED WERE TRAINED LAST YEAR. YEAH. YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGISTS BEING TRAINED FROM 40 TO 80. THEY SAY WE'RE ALREADY AT 80. YEAH, BUT THE INTENT WAS TO DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF PSYCHOLOGISTS THROUGH INTERNSHIP HUBS. BUT I THINK THE REAL POINT HERE, JACK, IS THAT THE DATA I'VE HAD RECENTLY, THE MODELLING HAS SAID WE NEED TO TRAIN 350 PSYCHOLOGISTS A YEAR TO MEET THE VACANCY RATES OF HEALTH NEW ZEALAND. NOW, AT THE MOMENT WE ARE ONLY TRAINING UP TO 80. SO MY POINT BEING IS THAT YES, WE CAN GROW THE CLINICAL INTERNSHIP PLACEMENTS, WHICH WE WILL DO, BUT ACTUALLY WE'VE ACTUALLY GOT TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, BECAUSE` THE NUMBER OF INTERNSHIP PLACEMENTS ` SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU ` HAS MORE THAN QUADRUPLED SINCE 2019, AT THE MOMENT. YES. SO IN TERMS OF ACTUAL STUDENTS ` CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY STUDENTS IN FINAL YEAR ` WHAT WILL WE EXPECT UNDER YOUR GOVERNMENT? ARE YOU GOING TO DOUBLE IT FROM 80, WHERE IT'S AT AT THE MOMENT, TO 160? WELL, I'LL TELL YOU WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT AT THE MOMENT, IS ABOUT 500 TO 600 PEOPLE WHO GRADUATE AT AN UNDERGRADUATE PSYCHOLOGY LEVEL. NOW, WHEN THEY DON'T GET ONE OF THOSE 50 OR 80 PSYCHOLOGY INTERNSHIP PLACEMENTS, THEY DISAPPEAR. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS THAT WHETHER WE CAN ESTABLISH, AS THE UK HAS DONE, A NEW REGISTERED PATHWAY FOR ASSISTANT PSYCHOLOGISTS THAT WE CAN THEN USE THAT 500 TO 600 PEOPLE WHO GRADUATE. I'VE ALREADY VISITED A COUPLE OF UNIVERSITIES. IT'S BEEN A POSITIVE CONVERSATION. SO YEAH, I WANT TO GROW THE NUMBER OF CLINICAL INTERNSHIP PLACEMENTS, BUT I'LL BE VERY CLEAR ` IF THE MODELLING OF RECEIVES SHOWS WE NEED 350 A YEAR, I THINK WE NEED TO DO DIFFERENT PATHWAYS AS WELL. SO HOW MANY WILL YOU FUND? THIS IS FROM HEALTH NEW ZEALAND. 'FURTHER INCREASES TO THE PSYCHOLOGY WORKFORCE WILL REQUIRE 'UNIVERSITY PROGRAMMES TO SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THEIR INTAKE 'AND AN ASSOCIATED FUNDING INCREASE.' YES. HOW MUCH? THEY'RE GOING TO BE ANNOUNCEMENTS I'M GOING TO BE MAKING SOON ` WHAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DOING IN THE WORKFORCE, SPECIFICALLY PSYCHOLOGY. BUT LET'S BE VERY CLEAR, AS THE AUDITOR GENERAL IN HIS REPORT, ANNOUNCED ONLY TWO WEEKS AGO, SAID WE ARE DESPERATELY IN THE NEED OF A WORKFORCE PLAN. WE DON'T HAVE A WORKFORCE PLAN FOR MENTAL HEALTH. YOU MENTIONED YOU'RE INTERESTED IN MENTAL HEALTH, IF YOU LIKE, WAS SPARKED IN THE WAKE OF A CAR ACCIDENT WHICH CONTRIBUTED TO ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION. WOULD SEEING A PSYCHOLOGIST FOR THAT BE COVERED NOW UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM? PROBABLY NOT. PROBABLY WHAT YOU WOULD GET COVERED BY NOW IS GOING TO AN ACCESS AND CHOICE PROGRAMME WITHIN THE GP. BUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULD BE COVERED UNDER ACC. EXCEPT THAT ACC DOESN'T COVER MENTAL HEALTH, RIGHT? YEAH, THERE IS THE ISSUE AROUND THAT. BUT I JUST WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT MY POINT IS WE'RE NOT` EVERYONE WHO HAS SOME MENTAL DISTRESS DOESN'T NEED TO SEE A PSYCHOLOGIST AND A PSYCHIATRIST. THERE IS A RANGE OF WORKFORCE OUT THERE. AND WHAT ALSO GETS LEFT OUT IS OUR LIVED EXPERIENCE PEER SUPPORT WORKFORCE AS WELL. YOU SAID AT THE START OF THIS INTERVIEW THAT MENTAL HEALTH SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE PHYSICAL HEALTH. SO SHOULD ACC COVER MENTAL HEALTHCARE? WELL, I THINK THAT'S AN OPTION WE CAN EXPLORE. SHOULD IT? WHAT'S YOUR POSITION AS MINISTER. YEAH, WELL, I'M SEEKING ADVICE ON THAT. YOU'RE SEEKING ADVICE ON WHETHER ACC SHOULD COVER MENTAL HEALTH? WELL, I'M MORE SPECIFICALLY SEEKING ADVICE ON THE AREA AROUND FIRST RESPONDERS AND THE ISSUE FOR THEM AROUND BEING EXPOSED TO MULTIPLE EVENTS. SO, I'M ASKING ABOUT ACC, THOUGH. SOMEONE WHO EXPERIENCES A TRAUMATIC EVENT, SHOULD THEY BE SUPPORTED FOR MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT AFTER THAT? YEAH, I'M KEEN TO EXPLORE THAT, JACK. I'M NEW IN ROLE. I'M NEW AS THE ACC MINISTER AS WELL. BUT YOU HAVE BEEN THE OPPOSITION SPOKESPERSON FOR SIX YEARS. NO, NO. NO, HOLD ON. I WASN'T THE OPPOSITION SPOKESPERSON FOR ACC. FOR MENTAL HEALTH YOU WERE, THOUGH. LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT AS WELL. FOR MENTAL HEALTH. WHY IS I AM HOPE EXEMPT FROM THE USUAL SERVICE PROCUREMENT PROCESSES? I THINK WE ALL AGREE MIKE KING DOES AN AMAZING JOB, AND I'M NOT DISPUTING THE SERVICES THEY PROVIDE. WHY SHOULD THAT ONE ORGANISATION BE EXEMPT FROM THOSE REGULAR PROCESSES? YEAH, SO IN THE COALITION AGREEMENT, WE AGREED TO FUND I AM HOPE, OR GUMBOOT FRIDAY, BY $6 MILLION. ONE OF THE REASONS WE DECIDED TO DO THAT IS THE GUMBOOT FRIDAY PLATFORM HAS OVER 400 MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS ON THAT PLATFORM. THEY CAN TAKE REFERRALS FOR YOUNG PEOPLE AND BE SEEN WITHIN 48 HOURS. PART OF WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO DO IS TAKE SOME OF THE DEMAND AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM AND ASK THE NGO AND COMMUNITY SERVICE TO PICK THAT UP. NOW, NOT ONLY DO I THINK BY GIVING THEM $6 MILLION THEY'LL BE ABLE TO OBVIOUSLY INCREASE THE NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE THEY'LL BE SEEING, I'M VERY INTERESTED FOR THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE ON A WAITLIST FOR SPECIALIST SERVICES, WHETHER SOME OF THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE CAN BE SEEN BY GUMBOOT FRIDAY TO KEEP STABLE IN THAT TIME. I WAS TALKING TO MY COUNTERPART IN AUSTRALIA YESTERDAY AFTERNOON, MINISTER EMMA MCBRIDE. AND SHE'S THE MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER AT A FEDERAL LEVEL. THEY HAVE A SIMILAR ISSUE ABOUT WAIT TIMES FOR SPECIALIST YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AND ARE LOOKING AT HOW THE COMMUNITY AND NGO SECTOR CAN COMPLEMENT THAT. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING BY FUNDING GUMBOOT FRIDAY. SO, I'M NOT DISPUTING THE WORK THAT GUMBOOT FRIDAY DOES. AGAIN, I THINK EVERYONE CAN SEE IT DOES SOME REALLY, REALLY VALUABLE AND IMPORTANT WORK. BUT IT DOESN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION ` WHY SHOULD IT BE EXEMPT FROM REGULAR PROCUREMENT PROCESSES? WELL, I'M NOT SURE IT IS EXEMPT. WHAT OTHER MENTAL HEALTH SERVICE PROVIDERS ARE YOU FUNDING THROUGH THE COALITION AGREEMENT THAT AREN'T GOING THROUGH ANOTHER PROCUREMENT PROCESS? AS AN EXAMPLE, WHAT HAPPENED UNDER THE LAST GOVERNMENT` WHAT ABOUT YOUR GOVERNMENT, THOUGH? I KNOW, AND I'LL COME BACK TO THAT, BUT I WOULD USE AN EXAMPLE OF THE PIKI PILOT. THAT WAS DIRECTLY FUNDED BY THE LAST GOVERNMENT AS WELL FOR SPECIFICALLY THE WELLINGTON REGION. AND IS THAT GOOD POLICYMAKING, TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ORGANISATIONS WON'T BE SUBJECT TO REGULAR PROCUREMENT? YEAH, WE'VE GOT THE FUNDING TO GUMBOOT FRIDAY. YEAH, I UNDERSTAND THAT ` SO IS THAT GOOD POLICY, TO JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ORGANISATIONS GET THE MONEY? I DON'T THINK ANYONE WOULD DISAGREE ABOUT FUNDING GUMBOOT FRIDAY AND THE RESPONSE THAT THEY CAN MAKE. BUT THEY MIGHT DISAGREE ABOUT THE PROCESS, RIGHT? BUT THAT WAS A DECISION WE MADE IN THE COALITION AGREEMENT. THE SECOND THING I'D SAY` SO, AGAIN, I'M ASKING IF IT'S GOOD POLICY JUST TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ORGANISATIONS ARE EXEMPT FROM REGULAR PROCUREMENT. WELL, I THINK THAT IF YOU ARE SAYING, IS GOOD POLICY GETTING MONEY TO THE FRONT LINE OF AN ORGANISATION...? THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION, THOUGH, MINISTER. THE QUESTION IS, IS IT GOOD POLICY TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ORGANISATIONS DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH REGULAR PROCUREMENT? BUT ALSO YOU'RE FORGETTING THAT WE ANNOUNCED THE MENTAL HEALTH INNOVATION FUND, JACK. MINISTER, CAN YOU JUST ANSWER THAT ONE QUESTION? IS IT GOOD POLICY TO PICK AND CHOOSE ` FOR ANY GOVERNMENT ` WHICH ORGANISATIONS ARE EXEMPT FROM REGULAR PROCUREMENT PROCESSES? WELL, IF IT'S A GOOD POLICY TO GET $6 MILLION TO GUMBOOT FRIDAY, I'LL SAY YES. THE SUICIDE RATE FOR MAORI MEN BETWEEN THE AGES OF 15 AND 24 IS MORE THAN TWO TIMES HIGHER THAN NON-MAORI OF THE SAME AGE GROUP. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? YEAH, WELL, THAT CONCERNS ME. AND ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT PART OF THE JOBS IS I MEET A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE EITHER ATTEMPTED SUICIDE THEMSELVES OR HAVE BEEN BEREAVED BY SUICIDE. AND I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CLEARLY DO A LOT BETTER IN THAT SPACE. WHEN YOU LOOK ABOUT MAORI AND THE RATE VERSUS NON-MAORI, I THINK IT'S ABOUT 18 PER 100,000 THAT COMMIT SUICIDE IN NEW ZEALAND WHO ARE MAORI; NON-MAORI ARE ABOUT 10 PER 100,000. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? WELL, I THINK MAORI ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN THOSE STATISTICS. I THINK THROUGH THINGS LIKE POVERTY, DISCRIMINATION, STIGMA, I'D EVEN GO AS FAR AS TO SAY COLONISATION AS WELL. AND I THINK WE HAVE TO BE OPEN TO ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE EXPERIENCES MAORI EXPERIENCE AND THE IMPACTS THAT HAS CLEARLY ON OUR SUICIDE RATES. SO WHAT AGENCY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OVERSEEING THE RESPONSE TO MAORI SUICIDE? WELL, AT THE MOMENT WE'VE GOT THE SUICIDE PREVENTION OFFICE. AND I MUST SAY, IT'S A SENSITIVE AREA. BUT ACTUALLY, FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN, I'VE BEEN QUITE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE SUICIDE PREVENTION OFFICE. I THINK IT HASN'T HAD THE LEADERSHIP THAT IT SHOULD HAVE HAD. I DON'T THINK IT'S GOT THE PROFILE OF ACTUALLY DIRECTING WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO. THE SUICIDE PREVENTION ACTION PLAN IS UP FOR REVIEW THIS YEAR, AFTER FIVE YEARS, AND I WANT TO LOOK AT THAT. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE WORKFORCE ISSUES WITHIN OUR SUICIDE PREVENTION WORK. BUT I ALSO WANT TO UNDERSTAND, AGAIN, HOW WE CAN USE OUR NGO AND COMMUNITY SECTOR, BECAUSE I'LL GIVE YOU A GOOD EXAMPLE ` MOST PEOPLE WILL CONNECT WITH THIS EXAMPLE. THE CONSTRUCTION SECTOR HAS THE HIGHEST SUICIDE RATE OUT OF ANY SECTOR. MOST PEOPLE WILL KNOW WHAT MATES IN CONSTRUCTION IS. AND THAT'S HOW WE WILL GET THAT MESSAGE OUT THERE. WHAT ABOUT THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY? IT'S EXPANDED MAORI SUICIDE PREVENTION FROM NINE PROVIDERS TO 23 PROVIDERS NATIONWIDE. YES. SO WHAT OFFICIAL ADVICE HAVE YOU HAD ABOUT THE IMPACT OF SCRAPPING THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY ON MAORI SUICIDE RATES? SO, THE SUICIDE PREVENTION OFFICE WAS REMOVED FROM THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH OR SHIFTED INTO THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. I HAVEN'T GOT ANY ADVICE UNDER THAT, OTHER THAN TO SAY I AM A BIG SUPPORTER OF BY-MAORI-FOR-MAORI SERVICES. I THINK IT IS ABOUT, IN SUICIDE PREVENTION, DEVOLUTION, LOCAL SOLUTIONS FOR LOCAL NEEDS. SO WHAT ADVICE HAVE YOU HAD, THEN, ABOUT THE IMPACT OF SCRAPPING THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, WHICH IS COMMISSIONING ALL OF THOSE SERVICES, AND IS COMMISSIONING A LOT IN THE SUICIDE SPACE? BUT I THINK YOU'RE CONFLATING TWO ISSUES, JACK. THE SCRAPPING OF THE BUREAUCRACY OF THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY IS DIFFERENT THAN THE SERVICES. WE ARE PUTTING THOSE SERVICES BACK INSIDE ONE SYSTEM, THE HEALTH SYSTEM. SO ALL OF THOSE SERVICES WILL CONTINUE TO BE FUNDED? YES, VERY MUCH SO. ALL 23? AND I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, WE ACTUALLY NEED TO DO MORE. BECAUSE WHEN I MEET IWI ` AND I WAS RECENTLY MEETING NGATI HINE UP IN WAITANGI, WHEN I WAS UP THERE, THEY TALK OF STORIES WHEN THE CAT TEAMS ARE CALLED FOR PEOPLE, AND THE CAT TEAM ISN'T ABLE TO GO OUT. AND THE IWI TAKES IT UPON THEMSELVES AND SAID, ACTUALLY, WE WILL GO OUT. AND THEY GO OUT AND SEE THEIR PEOPLE. THAT IS WHAT MENTAL HEALTH IS ABOUT. THERE'LL BE A LOT OF RANGE OF VIEWS ABOUT THE CENTRALISATION APPROACH OF THE HEALTH REFORMS. YOU COULD ARGUE A HIP REPLACEMENT IN CHRISTCHURCH IS THE SAME AS A HIP REPLACEMENT IN WELLINGTON. MENTAL HEALTH IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. IT'S ACTUALLY GOT TO BE LOCALISED. HOW WE RESPOND TO SUICIDE PREVENTION WHERE I AM TODAY IN NORTH CANTERBURY, FOR MIDDLE-AGED MALE DAIRY FARMERS, WILL POTENTIALLY BE VERY DIFFERENT THAN YOUNG MAORI IN SOUTH AUCKLAND. AND SO THAT'S WHY THIS ROLE IS ABOUT BRINGING THAT FOCUS AND THAT DETAIL TO THOSE ISSUES. AFTER THE BREAK, TOURISM PIPPED AGRICULTURE AS OUR BIGGEST EXPORT INDUSTRY BEFORE THE PANDEMIC. AND NEW NUMBERS SUGGEST IT'S BACK ON TRACK. MENTAL HEALTH, ACC, YOUTH, AND TOURISM ` AS A FIRST-TIME MINISTER, MATT DOOCEY IS JUGGLING A LOT OF VARIED PORTFOLIOS. FOR THE LAST PART OF OUR INTERVIEW, I STARTED BY ASKING ABOUT DRUG HARM AND ADDICTION. WHAT DRUG CAUSES THE MOST HARM IN NEW ZEALAND? OH, I'D HAVE TO SAY, UM, ALCOHOL ` IF YOU WOULD CALL THAT A DRUG, I WOULD, OBVIOUSLY, UM, SMOKING AS WELL. IT'S CERTAINLY A DRUG, YEAH. SO DO YOU SUPPORT GREATER RESTRICTIONS ON ALCOHOL ADVERTISING AND SPONSORSHIP? WELL, I THINK I` ACTUALLY, TO BE HONEST, I HAVEN'T REALLY LOOKED AT IT THAT MUCH IN DETAIL. I THINK WHETHER... I MEAN, ADDICTION IS A MASSIVE PART OF MENTAL HEALTH. YEAH, BUT I THINK SOMETIMES THE DEBATE AROUND, UM, ALCOHOL OR CANNABIS CAN GET A BIT BINARY ABOUT WHETHER IT'S LIBERALISED OR THE PROHIBITION. THE REALITY IS, WHATEVER THE REGIME IS, PEOPLE WILL STILL HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THAT SUBSTANCE. I WAS ABLE TO WORK` EXCEPT THAT, I MEAN, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW AN AD FOR CANNABIS ON TELEVISION? YEAH, WELL, I MEAN, THAT'S OBVIOUS WHY WE DON'T HAVE AN AD FOR CANNABIS. SO WHAT` NO, BUT MY POINT` HANG ON. THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, THE MINISTERIAL FORUM ESTABLISHED UNDER THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT WAS EXPLICIT IN ITS ADVICE ` THE NUMBER-ONE` THE NUMBER-ONE POLICY THEY SAID WE COULD INTRODUCE TO REDUCE ALCOHOL HARM IN NEW ZEALAND WOULD BE TO INTRODUCE GREATER RESTRICTIONS ON SPONSORSHIP AND ADVERTISING. AND YOU, AS THE MINISTER FOR MENTAL HEALTH, HAVEN'T GIVEN IT MUCH THOUGHT? WELL, NO, BECAUSE A, THA` THAT IS NOT MY DECISION; AND B, I WOULD SAY IT'S MORE OF AN EDUCATION. YOU'RE A MEMBER OF CABINET. YEAH, JACK, BUT YOU'RE ASKING ME THE QUESTION, AND WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU IS THAT YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE REGIME ` I ACCEPT THAT, MY OWN EXPERIENCE IN WORKING IN ALCOHOL AND DRUG SERVICES, BUT ACTUALLY, WHATEVER THE REGIME IS, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEMATIC USE. FOR ME, THAT IS ABOUT EDUCATION. THAT'S ABOUT BUILDING THE SKILLS OF THEM PEOPLE THAT'S ABOUT BUILDING THE SKILLS WITHIN PEOPLE AND THE SUPPORT SERVICES FOR THOSE WHO NEED TO REACH OUT AS WELL. WE TALKED AT THE START OF THIS INTERVIEW ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MENTAL DISTRESS AND MENTAL DISORDERS. SHOULD PEOPLE WITH MENTAL DISORDERS BE IN PRISON? WELL, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, AND I SUPPOSE HAS SOMEONE COMMITTED A CRIME THAT RESULTS IN THEM GOING TO PRISON, THE ANSWER IS YES. AND IF THE MENTAL DISORDER IS A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN THAT CRIME, SHOULD THEY BE IN PRISON? YEAH, WELL, I THINK THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING THING TO EXPLORE. YOU'D ASK YOURSELF AT THE MOMENT, 'ARE WE SCREENING OR ASSESSING 'PEOPLE IN PRISON?' I WOULD SAY NOT ENOUGH. AND WE'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE UNDERSTAND THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THIS PERSON HAS AND HOW IT CONTRIBUTES TO THE OFFENDING. SO IF YOU ARE SAYING THE POINT OF PRISON IS TO, A, KEEP THE PUBLIC SAFE, BUT ALSO USE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO REHABILITATE PEOPLE, THEN YES, WE SHOULD HAVE GOOD MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTION SERVICES IN THERE. CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOUR VISION FOR TOURISM IN NEW ZEALAND DIFFERS FROM THE CURRENT REALITY? FROM THE CURRENT REALITY? WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING QUESTION. FROM THE CURRENT REALITY? WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I MEAN, WHAT I WOULD SAY TO YOU IS THAT IT WAS VERY CLEAR UNDER NICOLA WILLIS' ANNOUNCEMENT LAST YEAR WHEN SHE OPENED UP THE BOOKS WE'VE GOT YEARS OF DEFICITS AHEAD OF US. SO QUITE RIGHTLY, ANY GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO CUT ITS CLOTH, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING, LIKE ANY FAMILY IN BUSINESS HAS DONE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT EQUATION IS, HOW DO WE THEN GROW THE ECONOMY? TOURISM AND HOSPITALITY IS ONE OF OUR BIGGEST EXPORT EARNERS, SO WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS GROW TOURISM. AND I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THE FIGURES THAT WERE ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY AND SHOWED THAT TOURISM HAD BOUNCED BACK TO OUR SECOND BIGGEST EXPORT EARNER. THE DATA TO MARCH 2023 SHOWED THAT TOURISM EXPENDITURE WAS ABOUT $37 BILLION, ONLY ABOUT $4 BILLION SHY OF THE 41 BILLION IT WAS AT PRE-COVID. SO IT SHOWS THAT THE TOURISTS ARE COMING BACK. AND AS I TRAVEL AROUND THE COUNTRY AS A NEW TOURISM AND HOSPITALITY MINISTER, IT'S REALLY EXCITING, AND I LOVE MEETING ALL THE COLOURFUL CHARACTERS, OUR TOURISM OPERATORS, AND THEY'RE LOVING THE ABILITY TO SHOWCASE NEW ZEALAND TO OUR INTERNATIONAL VISITORS. SO BACK TO MY QUESTION, THOUGH, HOW WOULD YOUR VISION FOR TOURISM AND NEW ZEALAND CHANGE THINGS? IN NEW ZEALAND CHANGE THINGS? WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY? WELL, AT THE MOMENT WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS GROW TOURISM. HOW MUCH BIGGER SHOULD IT BE, DO YOU THINK? WELL, THAT'S NOT FOR ME TO SAY. I MEAN` COULD IT BE NEW ZEALAND'S LARGEST EXPORT INDUSTRY AGAIN? WELL, POTENTIALLY. BUT WHEN I SAY I WANT TO GROW THE VALUE OF TOURISM, I WANT TO DO IT WITH SOCIAL LICENCE. I WANT COMMUNITIES TO BE PART OF THAT DISCUSSION. I'M REALLY ENCOURAGED AT THE MOMENT OF THE STRUCTURE WE HAVE IN NEW ZEALAND. WE HAVE OUR REGIONAL TOURISM ORGANISATIONS, WHO PUT TOGETHER WHAT'S CALLED DESTINATION MANAGEMENT PLANS. THAT'S PART OF COMMUNITIES DECIDING DO THEY WANT TOURISM, WHAT ATTRACTIONS DO THEY HAVE TO OFFER, AND WHAT LEVELS DO THEY WANT COMING IN? SO IT'S NOT FOR ME OUT OF THE BEEHIVE TO TELL AREAS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IN TOURISM, OTHER THAN I THINK A GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IS TO CREATE THE SETTINGS THAT TOURISM OPERATORS CAN GROW, INVEST ANOTHER DOLLAR, EMPLOY ANOTHER PERSON, AND THEN GET OUT OF THEIR WAY SO THEY CAN GO ON AND DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO. SO IS IT GOOD FOR PRODUCTIVITY, FOR GROWING WAGE RISES, THAT KIND OF THING? YEAH, WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOSPITALITY AND TOURISM, IT'S A WAY OF BRINGING JOBS INTO SOME OF THE SMALLER RURAL TOWNS` BUT IS IT GOOD FOR PRODUCTIVITY? WELL, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT IS ABOUT JOBS AND INCOMES THERE, JACK, AND THAT'S WHAT TOURISM CAN DO ` IT CAN BE A REAL ECONOMIC CATALYST FOR RURAL AND REGIONAL NEW ZEALAND. MBIE IS OF THE VIEW THAT UNMANAGED TOURISM GROWTH OVER THE MEDIUM TO LONG TERM IS UNLIKELY TO TACKLE NEW ZEALAND'S BROADER ECONOMIC CHALLENGES, INCLUDING PRODUCTIVITY AND LIFTING PER CAPITA INCOMES. YEAH. THAT'S FROM YOUR BRIEFING AS THE NEW MINISTER. BUT I'D SLIGHTLY PUSH BACK ON THAT, JACK. WHAT I'M ACTUALLY SEEING FROM OUR TOURIST OPERATORS ` AND I THINK REALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VALUE OF TOURISM TO OUR GDP, THE LATEST STATS SHOWED ABOUT 3.7 BILLION ` I THINK WE SHOULD BE PATTING OUR TOURISM OPERATORS ON THE BACK AND THANKING THEM FOR BEING PART OF OUR ECONOMIC RECOVERY, AND WHAT THEY ARE TELLING ME IS THAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT THEIR PRODUCTS NOW, AT THEIR SERVICES, AND LOOKING AT HIGHER VALUE OF WHAT THEY ARE ACHIEVING WITH THE INTERNATIONAL VISITORS. I THINK THAT WILL DRIVE PRODUCTIVITY, AND I THINK THAT SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED. AND FOR ME, WHEN YOU LOOK AT TOURISM, IT'S LARGELY PRIVATE CAPITAL, WE SHOULD BE CREATING THE SETTINGS THAT OUR TOURIST OPERATORS CAN GO ON AND FLOURISH, AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT IS. THAT IS MATT DOOCEY, IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE.KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER OR FACEBOOK. NEXT, WE'LL ASK IF A LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN THE FUTURE WILL REVIVE THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY. AND THEN WHAT NEWSHUB'S PROPOSED CLOSURE SAYS ABOUT THE STATE OF NEWS MEDIA IN NEW ZEALAND? WE CAN CHOOSE FORM OR FUNCTION. I CHOOSE FUNCTION. WE CAN CHOOSE ACTIVISM OR ACTIONS. I CHOOSE ACTIONS. WE CAN CHOOSE OUTRAGE OR OUTCOMES. I CHOOSE OUTCOMES. I COMMEND THIS BILL TO THE HOUSE. AND JUST LIKE THAT, COME JUNE 30TH ` TWO YEARS SINCE ITS LAUNCH ` TE AKA WHAI ORA THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY WILL BE NO MORE. TE AKA WHAI ORA, THE MAORI HEALTH, AUTHORITY WILL BE NO MORE. IN A COUNTRY WHERE MAORI LIFE EXPECTANCY IS SEVEN YEARS SHORTER THAN THAT OF NON-MAORI, SUPPORTERS SAW TE AKA WHAI ORA AS A STEP TOWARDS CLOSING THE GAP, BUT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS A SEPARATE AGENCY IS DIVISIVE AND UNNECESSARY. LABOUR'S ASSOCIATE HEALTH SPOKESPERSON IS PEENI HENARE. HUGELY DISAPPOINTING. IT WAS AN ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THE HEALTH SECTOR FOR THE FUTURE. BUT, YOU KNOW, I ACCEPT THE GOVERNMENT'S DONE WHAT THEY'VE DONE, AND OUR JOB NOW IS, AS MR RETI HAS SAID, THAT HE WANTS TO SEE OUTCOMES THAT WE'LL BE HOLDING TO ACCOUNT. LET'S TALK OUTCOMES A LITTLE BIT. WHAT HEALTH OUTCOMES RESULTING FROM THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY ORDER, TE AKA WHAI ORA, ARE YOU MOST PROUD OF? THERE ARE TWO THAT ARE` THE FIRST ONE IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE DIRECT WORK OF TE AKA WHAI ORA, THERE WAS JUST UNDER A 16% INCREASE IN MAORI TAMARIKI GOING FROM SCHOOL INTO THE TERTIARY SECTOR TO WORK IN HEALTH ROLES. I THINK THAT'S A REALLY EASY WAY TO MEASURE SOME OF THE IMPACT THAT THEY'VE HAD IN THE TWO YEARS, OR 18 MONTHS, THAT THEY HAD. AND FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH THAT, HOW DID TE AKA WHAI ORA FACILITATE THAT CHANGE? YEAH, IT'S SUPPORTED THROUGH A KAUPAPA CALLED PUHORO, WHICH IS TO FOCUS ON STEM SUBJECTS FOR MAORI WHICH IS TO FOCUS ON STEMM SUBJECTS FOR MAORI AND PACIFIC TAMARIKI AT COLLEGE, AND WE CAN HAND ON HEART SAY DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF OUR INVOLVEMENT WITH TE AKA WHAI ORA THROUGH THAT PARTICULAR KAUPAPA, WE SAW A REINVIGORATED SENSE AMONGST OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED IN HEALTH WHERE WE NEED WORKERS. IS PUHORO DEAD? NO, PUHORO'S STILL GOING. THERE'S STILL A LITTLE BIT MORE PUTEA IN THE TANK TO ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE TO DO ITS WORK. AND SO WILL IT CONTINUE TO BE FUNDED UNDER HEALTH NEW ZEALAND? THAT'S WHAT WE'LL BE PUSHING HEALTH NEW ZEALAND AND EVEN THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN DO THAT. IT'S SORELY NEEDED. SO EVEN THOUGH THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY` FOR THIS EXAMPLE, THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, HAS BEEN SCRAPPED, THE PROGRAMME THAT WAS FACILITATED THROUGH THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY MAY STILL RECEIVE PUTEA, WHICH MAY STILL ALLOW MAORI STUDENTS TO ENTER THOSE STEM SUBJECTS. WHICH MAY STILL ALLOW MAORI STUDENTS TO ENTER THOSE STEMM SUBJECTS. YES, THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING, AND CERTAINLY IF ANYTHING CHANGES IN THE NEAR FUTURE, WE'LL BE CHALLENGING THAT, BECAUSE IT'S SO SUCCESSFUL. RIGHT. WHAT WAS THE OTHER EXAMPLE? THE OTHER EXAMPLE IS THE MAORI HEALTH PROVIDER NETWORK ACROSS THE COUNTRY REPORTED AN UPTICK OF 12% IN THEIR CPI, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HASN'T HAPPENED FOR THE MAORI HEALTH SECTOR IN JUST OVER TWO DECADES. SORRY. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT IS CPI? IT'S AN INCREASE IN THE ABILITY FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE SERVICES, IN PARTICULAR AROUND SOME OF THEIR CAPITAL ASSETS. FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN TO SOME DOCTORS OF MAORI HEALTH PROVIDERS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE DELIVERED OUT OF PRETTY AVERAGE BUILDINGS. WE LEARNED THROUGH COVID THAT THE JOB ACTUALLY WAS TO GET OUT IN THE COMMUNITY. SO THERE WAS SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT TO HELP THEM WITH MOBILE CLINICS, ETC., TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN SERVICE OUR COMMUNITY, AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT HASN'T BEEN SEEN IN THE MAORI HEALTH SECTOR FOR JUST OVER 20 YEARS. AGAIN, COULD THAT CONTINUE TO BE FUNDED UNDER HEALTH NEW ZEALAND? WELL, THAT'S THE HOPE. THAT'S THE HOPE. AND AS I SAID, DR RETI'S KEEN ON OUTCOMES, AND WE'RE KEEN TO SEE OUTCOMES TOO. SO OUR JOB WILL BE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BABY ISN'T THROWN OUT WITH THE BATHWATER IN THIS INSTANCE, AND WE HAVE THE CHANCE TO CONTINUE TO DRIVE FOR BETTER HEALTH. THAT'S THE KIND OF FUNDAMENTAL POINT WITH ALL OF THIS, RIGHT? AND THIS WOULD BE THE GOVERNMENT'S ARGUMENT ` THEY WOULD SAY, 'OK, THE OVER-BRANCHING ORGANISATION, 'IF YOU LIKE, THAT IS TE AKA WHAI ORA, THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, 'IS GONE, BUT ACTUALLY ALL OF THESE SERVICES 'ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE FUNDED THROUGH HEALTH NEW ZEALAND, 'SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?' SO ONE OF THE BIG ROLES OF TE AKA WHAI ORA WAS TO HOLD HEALTH NEW ZEALAND TE WHATU ORA TO ACCOUNT. WHAT WE KNOW IS MAORI HEALTH SECTOR LOOKS LIKE TE AKA WHAI ORA, THE MAORI HEALTH PROVIDER NETWORK, BUT FOR MOST MAORI, THE FIRST TIME THEY GO TO THE DOCTOR IS WHEN THEY GO TO THE EMERGENCY WARD, OR THEY'VE DESPERATELY NEEDED HELP WITH THEIR HEART, ETC., AND USUALLY BY THE END IT'S TOO LATE. SO TE AKA WHAI ORA, ONE OF THE KEY ROLES WAS TO HOLD TE WHATU ORA TO ACCOUNT, BUT ALSO TO BE ABLE TO BE PART OF THE PLANNING FOR FUTURE GENERATIONAL HEALTH IN NEW ZEALAND. AND WHAT WE SAW DURING THE WEEK WAS A REPEAL THAT TOOK OUT THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY'S WORK IN SUPPORTING NEW ZEALAND TO PLAN FOR OUR HEALTH OUTCOMES. IN TERMS OF THE BIG PICTURE, ALL WE REALLY HAVE TO ASSESS AT THIS STAGE WHEN IT COMES TO TE AKA WHAI ORA'S EFFECTIVENESS OUTSIDE OF INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES AND ANECDOTES AND STUFF WAS THAT OFFICIAL REPORT BY THE HAUORA MAORI ADVISORY COMMITTEE. NOW, YOU COMMISSIONED THAT REPORT, RIGHT? TRUE. NOW, LET'S BE CLEAR. THE REPORT WAS COMMISSIONED IN THE VERY EARLY DAYS OF TE AKA WHAI ORA EXISTING... CORRECT. ...BUT NONETHELESS, IT WAS SCATHING, QUOTE, 'THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY'S INABILITY TO PUT IN PLACE 'THE NECESSARY LEVEL OF CAPABILITY AND CAPACITY TO PROGRESS 'ITS KEY FUNCTIONS HAS HAMPERED ITS PERFORMANCE.' DO YOU ACCEPT TE AKA WHAI ORA FELL SHORT OF ITS STATED GOALS? WHEN WE DID THE REVIEW, IT WAS CLEAR THAT WHEN YOU UNDERTAKE SUCH FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT AND CHANGE, IT'S IMPORTANT YOU GET IT RIGHT, WHICH IS WHY WE DID THE REVIEW, SO THAT WHERE WE COULD IDENTIFY EARLY WHERE THERE ARE CHALLENGES, HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT AND INFLUENCE IT FOR THE BETTER SO THAT WE DO GET TO WHERE WE WANT TO GO? I ACKNOWLEDGE, THOUGH, THAT IN THE HEALTH SECTOR IN PARTICULAR, FINDING CAPABILITY AND CAPACITY WAS JUST EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AFTER COVID-19 ` A WHITE-HOT LABOUR MARKET AND PLUS, YOU KNOW, HEALTH WORKERS WHO WERE BURNT OUT, EFFECTIVELY. SO THERE WAS A CHALLENGE THERE. I HAND-ON-HARD ADMIT THAT, BUT AS I'VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED, TE AKA WHAI ORA WAS A GENERATIONAL CHANGE. BUT THE THING WAS THAT REPORT MADE CLEAR THAT SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES TE AKA WHAI ORA WERE NOT BEING MET. I MEAN, ARGUABLY THE COMMISSIONING OF SERVICES, RIGHT, THAT YOU JUST REFERENCED BEFORE WAS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF THE AGENCY, QUOTE, 'THIS IS AN AREA OF SIGNIFICANT CONCERN ` 'COMMISSIONING ACTIVITY AND MAORI PROVIDER SERVICE PROVISION 'IS TRACKING BEHIND GOVERNMENT COMMITMENTS.' YEAH. SO COMMISSIONING IS IMPORTANT, AND AS A FORMER MINISTER OF WHANAU ORA COMMISSIONING WORKS THROUGH WHANAU ORA, THE INTENTION HERE, WHICH IS WHY I'M REALLY KEEN TO SEE WHAT DR RETI DOES, IS HE'S KEEPING THE IWI-MAORI PARTNERSHIP BOARDS THAT WE CREATED WITH TE AKA WHAI ORA. THE HOPE WAS THAT WE COULD COMMISSION THROUGH IWI-MAORI PARTNERSHIP BOARDS AT A LOCALITY, WHICH IS WHAT DR RETI IS TALKING ABOUT TODAY, AND, YOU KNOW, BUILDING THOSE WAS DIFFICULT. BUT I MEAN, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THE AGENCY AND THE CAPACITY FOR THE AGENCY TO ACTUALLY AFFECT CHANGE, IF EARLY ON IT COULDN'T EVEN COMMISSION SERVICES? IT STARTED COMMISSIONING SERVICES. BUT IT FELL SHORT OF THE BUDGET. YOU GAVE IT MONEY, AND THEY COULDN'T EVEN SPEND IT. THAT'S RIGHT. BUT IT STARTED COMMISSIONING SERVICES, AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT WAS A CASE OF ONCE WE HIT THE GREEN BUTTON, EVERYTHING WAS A-OK. THAT'S WHY WE DID THE REVIEW ` SO THAT IT COULD BE BETTER, IT COULD BE STRONGER IN ITS FOUNDATIONS. DID THE AGENCY PRIORITISE HIRING MAORI PEOPLE OVER PEOPLE WITH RELEVANT SKILLS? NO, THAT'S NOT MY UNDERSTANDING. WHEN I SPOKE WITH THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE, RIANA MANUEL, AT THE TIME, AND I MET WITH A NUMBER OF THE STAFF, IT WAS THE PERSON FOR THE JOB, AND AS I SAID, THE HURDLES WERE A WHITE-HOT LABOUR MARKET AND A VERY, VERY TIRED, FATIGUED SECTOR. 'IT WAS THE PERSON FOR THE JOB,' THIS IS A LINE FROM THAT SAME REPORT THAT YOU COMMISSIONED ` 'DISCRETIONARY CHOICES MADE BY THE BOARD AND EXECUTIVE 'HAVE OCCASIONALLY DETRACTED FROM TE AKA WHAI ORA'S DELIVERY 'OF ITS CORE FUNCTIONS. 'A KEY EXAMPLE RELATED TO STAFF TRANSFERS, 'WHEREBY TE AKA WHAI ORA'S PRIME FOCUS 'WAS ON ACQUIRING MAORI PERSONNEL 'INSTEAD OF STAFF WITH THE NECESSARY SKILLS AND EXPERIENCE, 'E.G., COMMISSIONING AND CONTRACT MANAGEMENT.' THERE WAS A LARGE NUMBER OF STAFF THAT CAME OVER FROM TE WHATU AND OTHER FUNCTIONS WITHIN THE HEALTH SECTOR ` DHBs, FOR EXAMPLE ` AND WE WERE QUITE CLEAR, THOUGH, THAT IT HAD TO BE THE BEST PERSON` THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED THOUGH, RIGHT? LOOK, THAT'S WHY WE HAD TO SET THE FOUNDATION. I ASKED YOU BEFORE IF PEOPLE WERE HIRED BECAUSE THEY WERE MAORI RATHER THAN BECAUSE THEY HAD THE RELEVANT SKILLS, AND YOU SAID THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BUT THE REPORT SAYS IT DID. WELL, OUR EMPLOYMENT` SO IT WAS THE TRUTH? OUR EMPLOYMENT LAWS ARE QUITE CLEAR ` YOU CAN'T DISCRIMINATE WHEN YOU HIRE. SO I'M MORE THAN CONFIDENT WHEN I SPOKE WITH THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE RIGHT SKILLS WERE SOUGHT AFTER, AND WHERE WE COULD, WE'D APPOINT THEM. SO YOU REJECT THE FINDINGS OF THE REPORT THAT YOU COMMISSIONED? IT CERTAINLY WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE WHEN I WORKED AND MET WITH THE STAFF. THAT REPORT, THE HAURORA MAORI ADVISORY COMMITTEE HAS PEOPLE LIKE PAREKAWHIA McLEAN, DR MATIRE HARWOOD, DR JIM MATHER, RAHUI PAPA, TA MARK SOLOMON. YOU'RE SAYING YOU REJECT THAT POINT? I CERTAINLY DO. THE POLITICAL NATURE OF THE AGENCY WAS SUPER RELEVANT FROM THE WORD GO, RIGHT? ANYONE WITH, I THINK A SCINTILLA OF POLITICAL NOUS COULD SEE THAT, RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, TE AKA WHAI ORA HAD A VERY, VERY SHORT WINDOW WITHIN WHICH TO PROVE THE KINDS OF CHANGE THAT IT MIGHT AFFECT FOR TE IWI MAORI. IF THE AGENCY WAS GETTING BASIC STUFF WRONG AND NOT FOR COMMISSIONING, EVEN WITH THE TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT YOU'D PUT ASIDE TO IT, WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THAT THEY DID HAVE THE CAPACITY TO AFFECT LONGER-TERM CHANGE? WHEN TE WHANAU ORA WAS SET UP UNDER THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT OF ITS DAY ` AND THEN ME HAVING SERVED AS MINISTER FOR SIX YEARS ` IT TOOK A FULL CLOSE TO A DECADE TO FULLY GET THOSE FUNCTIONS UP AND RUNNING AS WE SEE IT AND HOW SUCCESSFUL IT IS TODAY. I WAS UNDER NO ILLUSION THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE A DIFFICULT TASK FOR TE AKA WHAI ORA, BUT AS WE'VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED THROUGHOUT THE HEALTH REFORM, IT WAS A ONCE-IN-A-GENERATIONAL CHANGE. YES, WE WERE HAMPERED BY COVID-19. THE CASE WAS BUILT OFF THE HEALTH AND DISABILITY REPORT. WE CAMPAIGNED ON IT GOING INTO 2020, AND WE KNEW THAT WE HAD TO GET THE WORK DONE AND THAT THEY HAD TO GET IT RIGHT, WHICH IS WHY THE REVIEW WAS IMPORTANT. DO YOU RECKON THERE'S ANYTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE AS THE ASSOCIATE MINISTER TO BETTER FUTURE-PROOF THE ORGANISATION? OH, LOOK, I THINK WE` YOU KNOW, HINDSIGHT IS A WONDERFUL THING, BUT IF WE WERE TO PERHAPS HAVE DRIVEN IT EVEN HARDER, WHO KNOWS? IT MIGHT HAVE` WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN PRACTICE? WELL, I MEAN, A BIG PART ABOUT THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY AND FOR THOSE WHO HAVE FOLLOWED ITS JOURNEY ` EVEN BEFORE 18 MONTHS, TWO YEARS AGO ` THEY ALL KNOW THAT THE HOPE WAS AND THE DESIRE WAS TO HAVE INDEPENDENCE THERE BUT OF COURSE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TAXPAYER DOLLARS. SO WE HAD TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS WITHIN THE SYSTEM WHERE WE COULD CONTINUE TO MONITOR AND ACCOUNT FOR THOSE DOLLARS AND GET THE OUTCOMES THAT WE WANT. IF THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER, OF COURSE IT WOULD BE TO DRIVE IT EVEN HARDER. BUT AS I SAID, THE REVIEW WAS FUNDAMENTAL TO GET THE FOUNDATION RIGHT. BUT DRIVING EVEN HARDER ` JUST WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN PRACTICE? YEAH, LOOK, ON THE GROUND, IT LOOKS LIKE JUST FAR GREATER HANDS ON WITH RESPECT TO OUR MAORI HEALTH PROVIDERS AND THE WORK THAT WE GET. DR RETI ACKNOWLEDGED IN OUR DEBATE DURING THE WEEK THAT WHAT WE ALL KNOW AFTER COVID-19 IS IMMUNISATION RATES RIGHT ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR MAORI AND PACIFIC KIDS IS SO LOW. WE SET SOME TARGETS, WE SET SOME FUNDING, BUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE WE DID WITH COVID, SOMETIMES YOU'VE LITERALLY JUST GOT TO STAND RIGHT OVER THEIR SHOULDER AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE GETTING THE WORK DONE. THAT'S HOW WE DROVE THE VACCINATION RATE. YEAH, RIGHT. SO AS YOU SAY, DR RETI SAYS, 'JUDGE US BY OUTCOMES 'RATHER THAN INPUTS.' IS THERE ANY PROGRAMME OR PIECE OF WORK THAT WAS BEING DRIVEN BY TE AKA WHAI ORA THAT, IN YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WILL NOT CONTINUE NOW THAT IT'S BEING MOVED TO HEALTH NEW ZEALAND? SO SOME OF THE UM IWI-MAORI PARTNERSHIP BOARDS` BECAUSE THEY WERE IMPORTANT AS PART OF LOCALITY PLANNING, INSTEAD OF THE BROKEN DHB MODEL WE HAD, WE LOOK TOWARDS LOCALITIES. THE MINISTER MADE IT CLEAR IN HIS DEBATE THAT LOCALITIES HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED FOR NOW, WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION THEN WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF HOLDING ON TO THE IWI-MAORI PARTNERSHIP BOARD IF THEY'RE NOT PART OF THE HEALTH ENVIRONMENT IN THAT REGION? AND THAT'S THE CHALLENGE THAT I PUT TO THE MINISTER, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO HOLDING HIM TO IT. IN TERMS OF ACTUAL SERVICES, THOUGH, IS THERE ANY SERVICE THAT HAS BEEN CUT TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? WELL, THE MAORI HEALTH PROVIDER NETWORK HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE. THAT'S BEEN LONG BEFORE TE AKA WHAI ORA. THE JOB WAS TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT IT AND GROW IT INTO THE FUTURE. RIGHT NOW, THE MINISTER HASN'T INDICATED ANY CUT. AND THE OTHER POINT, THOUGH` AND SAYS, THOUGH, TO BE FEAR THAT THAT MONEY DEDICATED AND SAYS, THOUGH, TO BE FAIR, THAT THAT MONEY DEDICATED TO MAORI SERVICES WILL REMAIN DEDICATED TO MAORI SERVICES AT THIS STAGE. THAT'S RIGHT. AND THE BILL DOESN'T COME INTO FORCE TILL JUNE 30TH, WHICH IS WHY WE PRESSED THE GOVERNMENT ON WHAT'S THE RUSH? YEAH ,SO THE PROOF OF THE PUDDING IS IN THE EATING, I SUPPOSE, IS MY POINT. IF THERE WAS CONCERN IN ANY QUARTERS THAT SERVICES IMPROVING THE HEALTH OUTCOMES FOR TE IWI MAORI WERE GOING TO BE CUT, THEN THAT THAT WOULD BE WORTHY OF YOUR ATTENTION. WOULD A LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN THE FUTURE REINSTATE THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY? OUR LEADER, CHRIS HIPKINS, WAS ASKED THAT VERY QUESTION IN WAITANGI ON THE MARAE AND COMMITTED TO REINSTATING IT. THERE WAS A CLEAR CASE MADE FOR IT IN THE HEALTH AND DISABILITY REVIEW. ALL THE EVIDENCE STACKS UP. AND HE MADE A CLEAR COMMITMENT THEN. BUT OF COURSE WE'VE GOT A JOB TO DO OVER THE COMING 2� YEARS, BUT OF COURSE, WE'VE GOT A JOB TO DO OVER THE COMING 2� YEARS, NOT JUST TO HOLD THE GOVERNMENT TO ACCOUNT, BUT ALSO TO DO THE POLICY PLANNING REQUIRED AS WE BUILD FOR THE 2026 ELECTION. IS THERE ANY OTHER AREA OF PUBLIC SERVICES ` EDUCATION, FOR EXAMPLE ` THAT YOU THINK WOULD WARRANT HAVING A SIMILAR ORGANISATION OR AUTHORITY? NOT FROM MY VIEW AT THE MOMENT. AND WE WERE QUITE DELIBERATE WITH HEALTH, THAT IF WE COULD GET IT RIGHT IN HEALTH, PERHAPS MAYBE THERE'S A CASE FOR IT ELSEWHERE. BUT CERTAINLY RIGHT NOW, IN MY VIEW, AND GIVEN NOW THAT IT'S BEEN DISPOSED OF, OH WELL, IT'S ALMOST BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD. HOW MANY CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING HELD WITHIN THE LABOUR MAORI CAUCUS AT THE MOMENT AS TO A STRATEGY FOR WINNING BACK SOME OF THOSE MAORI SEATS AT THE NEXT ELECTION? YEAH, LOOK, WE'VE GOT A PLANNING DAY COMING UP VERY SOON AS A CAUCUS, THE MAORI CAUCUS, IN PARTICULAR, THE LIKES OF OUR SENIOR MEMBERS ` WE'VE LOST A FEW. BUT WITH MYSELF, WILLIE JACKSON AND OTHERS, WE ARE, EVERY WEEK, SITTING DOWN AND STRATEGISING NOT JUST ABOUT THE ELECTION, BUT JUST TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT OUR PEOPLE. OUR PEOPLE ARE FEELING UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW. AND IT'S OUR JOB TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN SUPPORT THEM THROUGH THIS. PERSONALLY, DO PEOPLE HIT YOU UP AND ASK YOU IF YOU WANT TO BE PARTY LEADER? (CHUCKLES) LOOK, I'VE ALWAYS MADE IT CLEAR, I SUPPORT CHRIS HIPKINS. HE'S VERY GOOD. THERE WASN'T MY QUESTION, THOUGH. DO PEOPLE HIT YOU UP AND ASK YOU? THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION, THOUGH. DO PEOPLE HIT YOU UP AND ASK YOU? YEAH, PEOPLE DO ASK ME. HOW OFTEN? I DON'T KNOW. SORT OF MAYBE EVERY ONCE A WEEK, OR TWICE A WEEK, MAYBE. A LOT OF WHANAU. THAT'S QUITE OFTEN, EH? A LOT OF WHANAU. BUT LOOK, I APPRECIATE IT. I'VE BEEN IN POLITICS NOW FOR COMING UP 10 YEARS. I CONSIDER MYSELF A SENIOR MEMBER OF THE LABOUR PARTY. BUT AS I'VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED, I SUPPORT CHRIS HIPKINS. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO AS A PARTY. AND I LOOK FORWARD TO DOING THAT. IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO STICK AROUND, IS IT SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD ENTERTAIN? LOOK, THAT'S ENTIRELY UP TO HIM AND HIS CHOICE. FOR ME... OBVIOUSLY. I MEAN, IF HE DIDN'T WANT TO STICK AROUND. FOR ME, LOOK, LIKE I SAY, I CONSIDER MYSELF A SENIOR LEADER IN OUR TEAM, AND I'LL BE THERE TO PLAY MY PART. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH NZQandA, AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. AFTER THE BREAK ` AS A GLOBAL MEDIA GIANT PROPOSES CLOSING DOWN A SIGNIFICANT LOCAL NEWS OUTLET, WILL THE GOVERNMENT DECIDE TO STEP IN TO TRY AND PROP UP THE INDUSTRY? THERE ARE NOW MULTIPLE CATS AMONG THE PIGEONS, AS THE GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS SUBMISSIONS ON THE FAIR NEWS DIGITAL BARGAINING BILL, WHICH WOULD FORCE META AND GOOGLE TO PAY LOCAL NEWS PRODUCERS. ON FRIDAY, META ANNOUNCED IT WOULD NOT BE RENEWING ITS DEALS UNDER SIMILAR LEGISLATION IN AUSTRALIA AND WILL BE PAYING FOR NEWS, ANYWHERE, WORLDWIDE. AND WITH THE PROPOSAL FROM WARNER BROTHERS DISCOVERY WHICH WOULD CLOSE NEWSHUB NEWS OPERATIONS, NEWS PRODUCERS HERE FACE AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE. PETER BALE IS A JOURNALIST AND FORMER MEDIA EXECUTIVE. I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE NEWSHUB ANNOUNCEMENT. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A HIDEOUS INEVITABILITY ABOUT IT. I DON'T THINK THAT WARNER BROTHERS DISCOVERY CARES ABOUT THE NEW ZEALAND MARKET, AND IT MOST CERTAINLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE NEWS MARKET IN NEW ZEALAND. IT HAS ENORMOUS IMPLICATIONS, OF COURSE. IT'S INTERESTING. I THINK POLAND IS THE ONLY COUNTRY, AS FAR AS I KNOW, WHERE WARNER BROTHERS DISCOVERY HAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN... ANY NEWS OPERATION OTHER THAN CNN. SO I THINK IT WAS AN INEVITABILITY. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE LOSS OF NEWSHUB ISN'T BOTH IMPORTANT, NOT JUST TO JOURNALISTS ` BECAUSE WE CAN BE A BIT KIND OF SELF-REGARDING ABOUT THIS ` BUT IT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT THE DIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND MEDIA AND ALSO THE ADVERTISING MARKET. WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE ROLE THAT TELEVISION NEWS ` AND I USE THAT TERM TELEVISION IN THE LINEAR SENSE ` WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE ROLE OF THAT IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY, RELATIVE TO 15 OR 20 YEARS AGO? WELL, HAVING LIVED OVERSEAS A LOT AND COME BACK TO NEW ZEALAND RELATIVELY RECENTLY AND SEEING THE EXTRAORDINARY TRUST THAT THE 6 O'CLOCK NEWS ON TVNZ COMMANDS, IT IS A REMARKABLE AND AN UNUSUAL MARKET IN THAT REGARD, IN THAT THAT 6 O'CLOCK BULLETIN IS STILL A KIND OF POINT OF INTEREST FOR THE COMMUNITY. IT IS A TRUSTED BRAND. IT DOES ITS JOB VERY, VERY WELL. AND I THINK THE 5.30 SHOW ON NEWSHUB DID VERY WELL. NEWSHUB NATION, LIKE YOUR SHOW, THE ONE WE'RE ON NOW, WAS ONE OF THE FEW KIND OF WEEKLY POINTS WHERE YOU TAKE THE TRUE ECONOMIC, BUSINESS, GOVERNMENT CONCERNS OF THE COUNTRY AND ACTUALLY HAVE A GOOD CONVERSATION ABOUT THEM. I MEAN, WE USED TO HAVE THAT WITH PAUL HOLMES AND OTHERS OVER THE YEARS. WE'VE KIND OF LOST THAT DAILY EXAMINATION OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN POLITICS, AND I THINK THAT'S A GREAT PITY. SO ANYTHING THAT DETRACTS FROM THAT AND DETRACTS FROM THE DIVERSE VOICES OR THE DIVERSITY OF VOICES ` I MEAN, NEWSHUB WAS PUNCHY. YOU KNOW, IT WAS A LITTLE BIT RAW AND READY SOMETIMES AND HAD A DIFFERENT VOICE, AND THAT'S A GREAT PITY THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THERE, OR APPEARS NOT GOING TO BE THERE. THAT'S RIGHT ` IT'S A PROPOSAL AT THIS STAGE. BUT I THINK WE CAN ALL READ INTO TO THAT. THE PROPOSALS ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY HAVE HUMAN RESOURCE CONSULTATIONS THAT ARE REQUIRED. I DO THINK THERE ARE SOME INTERESTING IDEAS THERE, SLIMMING IT DOWN ` MARK JENNINGS, THE FORMER HEAD OF TV3 NEWS, HAS SOME VIEWS ABOUT IT. I HAVE SOME OPINIONS ABOUT IT, WHICH IS THAT IF I WERE WARNER AND I WANTED TO RESURRECT SOME, PUBLIC FAITH IN THIS AND I WANTED TO RESURRECT SOME PUBLIC FAITH IN THIS OR PUBLIC RESPECT IN THIS, I MIGHT CONSIDER WAYS OF DEPLOYING THE CNN BRAND HERE. THEY HAVE A NUMBER OF JOINT VENTURES IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD ` THE CZECH REPUBLIC, FOR EXAMPLE, GREECE. YOU COULD DO SOMETHING WITH THAT, AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE REALLY INTERESTING, BUT I DOUBT THAT THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE THINKING AT THE MOMENT. TVNZ POSTED A SIGNIFICANT HALF-YEAR LOSS THIS WEEK. SO TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THE NEWSHUB PROPOSAL IS A CANARY IN THE COALMINE OF SORTS FOR THE WIDER NEWS INDUSTRY? I THINK IT IS. WELL, IT'S A BIT MORE THAN A CANARY, ACTUALLY. IT'S SLIGHTLY MORE ILL THAN THAT. IT'S A BIGGER LOSS THAN A CANARY. THE NEWS INDUSTRY IS FACING A NUMBER OF CRISES, AND SOME OF THEM ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. I MEAN, BOTH TELEVISION NEW ZEALAND AND TV3, NEWSHUB HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE EXTORTIONATE COST OF DISTRIBUTING LINEAR BROADCASTING OVER NEW ZEALAND. TRANSMISSION COSTS. YEAH. IF THE GOVERNMENT WERE TO REMOVE THE TRANSMISSION COSTS FROM CORDIA, WHICH IS A PROPERLY STATE-OWNED VENDOR, THEN I THINK THAT WOULD HELP IMMENSELY. I'VE HAD THAT FEEDBACK FROM BOTH TV3 AND FROM TVNZ FOR A PROJECT THAT I'M DOING WITH SIR PETER GLUCKMAN AT KOI TU ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE THE LOSS OF THESE VOICES REALLY DAMAGES, POTENTIALLY, THE DEMOCRATIC FABRIC OF NEW ZEALAND, AS WELL AS THE MEDIA FABRIC ` I MEAN, THEY KIND OF INTERACT. AND WE IN JOURNALISM CAN BE A LITTLE BIT TOO PRECIOUS ABOUT THAT SOMETIMES. BUT WE WANT DIVERSE VOICES. WE WANT VOICES THAT REFLECT NEW ZEALAND AS IT IS NOW, NOT NECESSARILY AS IT WAS. AND SO ANY LOSS IS DIFFICULT. BUT TELEVISION IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION. I MEAN, COMMERCIAL OPERATORS OFTEN SAY THAT TVNZ AND RNZ ARE THEIR TWO BIGGEST COMPETITORS, IN A SENSE. AND IN A WAY, THEY ARE. TVNZ IS A REALLY EFFECTIVE PUBLIC BROADCASTER ` NOT A STATE BROADCASTER ` BUT IT'S AN UNUSUAL PUBLIC BROADCASTER, IN THAT IT'S COMMERCIALLY FUNDED ` IT HAS A MODEL OF... BUT OWNED BY THE GOVERNMENT. YES, EXACTLY. BUT ON THE PUBLIC'S BEHALF. I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT THAT DISTINCTION ABOUT WHAT PUBLIC BROADCASTING IS, PUBLIC MEDIA IS AND ALSO PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM, SO THAT WE REALISE THAT WE'RE NOT ALL INSTRUMENTS OF THE STATE, NO MATTER WHAT. THERE SEEMS TO ME TO BE A TENSION WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE MULTIPLE CRISES THAT YOU DESCRIBED IN THE NEWS INDUSTRY, IF YOU LIKE. ONE IS THAT, INCREASINGLY, YOU HEAR NEWS PRODUCERS CALLING FOR SOME FORM OF POLICY OR GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN THEM. THEY SAY THAT THE CURRENT ECONOMIC MODELS OR THE TRADITIONAL ECONOMIC MODELS ARE NO LONGER APPROPRIATE. HOWEVER, OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WE HAVE SEEN SIGNIFICANT DISINTEGRATION WHEN IT COMES TO TRUST IN THE NEWS MEDIA. AND I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT ANY SIGNIFICANT GOVERNMENT POLICY COMES AT A COST OF TRUST, WHEN COMES IN THAT NEWS MEDIA. HOW DO YOU GET PAST THAT? I THINK WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IN WHOSE INTEREST IS IT FOR TRUST IN MEDIA TO DIMINISH. AND VERY OFTEN THAT'S POLITICIANS, PARTICULARLY ON THE RIGHT WING. I MEAN, DONALD TRUMP IS THE GREATEST EXPONENT OF THIS ` CONSTANT REPETITION OF THE IDEA OF FAKE NEWS DOES START TO BITE. THE NEWS MEDIA NEEDS TO WORK HARDER TO DEFEND THAT POSITION OF TRUST, TO NOT BE ARROGANT, TO SPEAK TO ITS AUDIENCES MORE CLEARLY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK IN NEW ZEALAND IS A PARTICULAR PROBLEM, BUT IT'S NOT JUST IN NEW ZEALAND, IS BEING CLEAR ABOUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN OPINION, COMMENTARY AND HARD FACTS. AND I THINK BEING MORE TRANSPARENT, BEING CLEAR ABOUT THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. BUT WE SHOULD REALLY THINK ABOUT IN WHOSE INTEREST IT IS THAT THE CONFIDENCE IN THE MEDIA IS DIMINISHED. AND VERY OFTEN THAT'S POLITICIANS. WE SAW THE WAY ALSO THAT THE ANTI-VACCINE, ANTI-VACCINATION MOVEMENT AND VARIOUS OTHERS KIND OF CAPTURED THIS DURING COVID. MY IMPRESSION, HAVING COME BACK TO NEW ZEALAND JUST AS THAT STARTED, WAS THAT, IN GENERAL, THE NEW ZEALAND MEDIA DID AN ASTOUNDING JOB, AS DID THE GOVERNMENT, IN A SENSE, OF TRYING TO EXPLAIN A FAST-MOVING PROBLEM THAT WAS IMMENSE, THAT WAS GLOBAL, AND WHERE THERE WAS A PHENOMENAL AMOUNT OF MISINFORMATION, DISINFORMATION AND JUST LACK OF INFORMATION, OF REAL FACTS. AND I THOUGHT THEY DID A REMARKABLE JOB. THEY POSSIBLY COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HARDER IN QUESTIONING SOME OF THE GOVERNMENT'S TACTICS. BUT THE GOVERNMENT BARELY KNEW WHAT IT WAS DOING AND WAS REACTING IN REAL TIME AS WELL. AND WE'LL SEE SOME OF THAT COME OUT WITH THE COVID INQUIRY. AND I HOPE THE COVID INQUIRY ADDRESSES THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA. BUT, IN GENERAL, I THINK THAT TWO THINGS COMBINED THERE. ONE WAS THE SPREAD OF MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION ABOUT COVID ITSELF, THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW THE MEDIA WAS IN CAHOOTS WITH THE GOVERNMENT, AS OPPOSED TO TRYING TO USE ITS POWER TO COMMUNICATE THE BEST INFORMATION IT HAD, WHICH I THINK WAS THE TRUTH. AND THEN THERE WAS THIS FALLOUT, THE WEAPONISATION OF THE PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM FUND, WHICH HAS BEEN USED ` AND I'M REALLY PLEASED THAT THE NEWS PUBLISHERS ASSOCIATION IN NEW ZEALAND NOW HAS A MUCH MORE BOLD, SPOKESMAN ON THIS, BECAUSE THE NEWS INDUSTRY DID NOT DEFEND ITSELF ADEQUATELY, I THINK, ABOUT THE CRITICISM OF THE PIJF. THE GOVERNMENT IS CURRENTLY CONSIDERING THE FAIR DIGITAL NEWS BARGAINING BILL, WHICH IS A BILL THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY FORCE THE BIG DIGITAL PLAYERS ` META, WHICH OWNS FACEBOOK, AND GOOGLE ` TO PAY LOCAL NEWS PRODUCERS FOR THEIR CONTENT. OF COURSE, SIMILAR LEGISLATION IS ALREADY IN PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, CANADA, PLACES LIKE THAT. ON FRIDAY, META ANNOUNCED THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE DOING THOSE DEALS AND PAYING LOCAL NEWS PRODUCERS IN AUSTRALIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES WORLDWIDE. THEY'RE GOING TO BE LOSING THE NEWS TAB FROM FACEBOOK. THAT, COMBINED WITH THE NEWSHUB NEWS THIS WEEK, HOW DO YOU THINK THE MINISTER IS GOING TO BE APPROACHING THAT? I THINK SHE'S PROBABLY GOING TO KEEP IT QUITE SEPARATE. I THINK THEY ARE QUITE SEPARATE. THEY'RE SORT OF TWO HALVES OF THE SAME COIN, IN THAT FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE AND THE PLATFORMS DO DOMINATE DIGITAL ADVERTISING. THERE IS A TAXATION ASPECT OF THERE. IF YOU COULD COME UP WITH SOME KIND OF DIGITAL ADVERTISING TAX THAT WAS PERHAPS FUNNELLING SOME MONEY FROM THAT TAX TAKE TOWARDS, SAY, NZ ON AIR. A BROADER APPROACH, WHICH WERE THE SUBMISSIONS THAT WERE MADE FOR THE BILL. BUT THE IDEA OF A LINK TAX OR THAT FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE SOMEHOW OWE THE NEWS BUSINESS A LIVING, IT'S UNPOPULAR WITH MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES, AND IT'S CERTAINLY UNPOPULAR WITH PEOPLE I'VE WORKED WITH HERE. I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY DO OWE THE NEWS BUSINESS A LIVING. THEY HAVE DELIVERED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF VALUE TOWARDS THE NEWS BUSINESS OVER THE YEARS. AND PARTICULARLY IN FACEBOOK OR META'S CASE, THE NEWS INDUSTRY HAS BEEN RATHER DISINGENUOUS WITH THIS. YOU'VE HAD THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF NEWS CORPORATION AND MARK ZUCKERBERG ON THE SAME PLATFORM, SAYING, WE'VE JUST GOT THIS AMAZING PACT ` IT'S GOING TO HAVE THE NEWS TAB, ALL OF THIS. AND THEN YOU'VE GOT NEWSCORP LOBBYING VERY, VERY HARD IN AUSTRALIA FOR THE AUSTRALIAN REGULATIONS. AND I'M AWARE THAT MARK ZUCKERBERG IS REALLY SICK OF THAT. FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, IT'S A POLITICAL BURDEN AND AN AGGRAVATION HE DOESN'T NEED. AND I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT. BUT FACEBOOK IS... WE HAVE TO BE ON THAT PLATFORM TO SOME EXTENT. BUT CAN FACEBOOK REALLY BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU OR I POST THERE AS INDIVIDUALS, OR WHAT BUSINESSES POST THERE? THE NEWS TAB WAS A SOP, TO SOME EXTENT, TO THE NEWS INDUSTRY. IT WAS A WAY IN WHICH FACEBOOK COULD QUARANTINE AN AGREED STREAM OF NEWS THAT IT COULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR AND DO TRANSACTIONS WITH MEDIA BUSINESSES. AND THEN WE STILL WOULD THEN LOBBY OUR GOVERNMENTS TO GET EVEN MORE. GOOGLE HAS TAKEN A SLIGHTLY MORE SUBTLE APPROACH, BEEN A LITTLE LESS AGGRESSIVE. BUT GOOGLE HAS DONE ITS OWN AGREEMENTS WITH BUSINESSDESK, NZME AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS IN NEW ZEALAND TO PUT THEM INTO A KIND OF TAB ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH SERVICE, SPECIFICALLY SO THAT THEY CAN SAY, 'HERE WE ARE HELPING NEWS.' THAT'S PETER BALE. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU ` THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING, SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9am. CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND JAMES BROWN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024