- E te iwi e tawharautia mai ki te kore he whakakitenga mai, ka mate e te iwi e. Ko wai hei rangatira mo tatou, ko wai, ko wai, ko tatou ano. Ko te hui tenei e tawharau nei a tatou i tenei wa. This week on the Hui ` Up in smoke. The government is set to repeal key smokefree reforms. We talk tobacco harm and the impacts of this backwards step on tangata whenua. - It's just devastating that the government has put profit over people. - Plus, taking the traditional forward. We see how a passion for tukutuku turned into a thriving online business. - I would sell out and make $26,000. - And I know it'll never be lost because they're here carrying it through. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Nga mate o te wa, o te ra. Tu a tini, tu a mano. Haramai, haere. Tatou e maho iho nei ki te ahuatanga o te whenua, tihewa mauri ora. And welcome back to the Hui. Changes to anti-smoking legislation rushed through last month have left a bad taste in the mouths of many Maori health workers. They want to see smoking stubbed out for good and fear the coalition government's actions will leave many whanau addicted for longer. Mea nei te purongo a Meriana Johnsen. - The habit that has its hooks in Maori. While the overall adult smoking rate is just under 7%, for Maori, it's 17%. - I've seen the harm it's done with my parents, who were smokers ` lifelong smokers ` the expense it was and how it affected them because they ended up with emphysema from the smoking. - Both of them ended up`? - Both of them. So yeah, it was pretty hard on our family. - Thankfully, most of my whanau have turned to vapes. Us smoking is just getting a bit too expensive. And I think it's more for our tamariki, eh, you know, cos` I'm not saying that vapes are any better. - Many young people, they just want to try it. But sometimes when they try it, they can't get off it. So if they don't have it in the first place to try it that young, I think it's good for the government to stop it so they don't get hooked too early. - I wouldn't want my children to smoke or my mokos to smoke. I think how the laws were before, with the gradual increase in age able to buy smokes, was good. So those that are growing up now wouldn't have the chance to buy smokes or purchase it. - Praised by health officials internationally, new smokefree laws have now been scrapped. They included slashing the number of outlets that could sell cigarettes, removing most nicotine from them and creating a smokefree generation. But now that's all gone up in smoke. - The last government was moving towards an untested regime with a focus on prohibition. - Minister in charge of the law change ` Casey Costello. - Also, the impact on retailers and crime was being ignored, or, at the very least trivialised. - As the bill was pushed through, the house erupted. - I commend this bill to the house. - Thank you, Madam Speaker. Don't know any lobbyists. - Tobacco is the most harmful consumer product in New Zealand. It kills 50% of the people who use it. It is the leading preventable cause of death in New Zealand. - It was making sure that our tamariki and our mokopuna ` don't grow up around cigarettes because we know that once they do, they are hooked. And what this government is actually doing is making it far more accessible. - Despite smoking rates for rangatahi aged 18 to 24 more than halving in the last decade to 7%, it's still an issue. Do you have many friends that smoke? - I do, yeah. Mm. - Some young people are using cigarettes to get off vaping as opposed to vaping to get off cigarettes because they don't like the taste of cigarettes, whereas vapes are quite sweet. So very real possibility that we will have more young people taking up cigarette smoking as well as vaping. - Jacqui Harema is the chief executive of Maori public health group Hapai Te Hauora. - It's just devastating that a government has put profit over people. I just think the harm that we're going to see for our whanau over the next generations is going to be horrific. - It's blown out the time frame for Maori to reach smokefree. - So under the previous legislation that they repealed, the modelling suggested that Maori would have reached the target in 2026, 2027. But now 2040 is when they're looking` that modelling has suggested we will reach that target. - The government insists they're still committed to meeting the Smokefree 2025 goal, which these whanau desperately want to see. - I don't want my kids to be second-generation smokers. - It's a regression, uh, backwards where we're trying to go forwards with it and be smokefree. - So where do we go from here now? Joining us now is our panel of experts. They include former MP for the Mana Party leader and smokefree advocate, Hone Harawira. E kara, tena koe. - Tena koe. - We're also joined now by the regional manager of Takiri Mai Te Ata stop smoking service, Catherine Manning. Tena koe. - Tena koe. - And also joining us is research fellow with the Department of Health at the University of Otago and co-director of Aspire Aotearoa Research Centre, Anaru Waa. Tena koe e hoa. - Tena koe. - Nau mai. Tena koutou katoa. Nau mai ra. What do you say, Hone, to this government who many believe has removed what is considered world-leading smoking legislation? - Well, it's bullshit, quite frankly. I mean, it'd be different if they actually laid out their policy and says, 'This is what we're gonna do so we can scrap that.' But they're just scrapping it and then can make something up afterwards ` something that Shane Reti has already admitted they're taking from tobacco industry-funded retailers. They're taking from innuendo about black market. They're taking it from non-evidence-based research about crime. They don't have anything. All they're doing is killing the Smokefree bill so they can hang on to that bloody tax to give to their mates who they promised all of these tax breaks. They didn't have the money for it. Now they've got it. - But the associate health minister has said that they are still committed` - Who's this? - This is Casey Costello who says they're still committed to an Aotearoa Smokefree 2025 nation ` Aotearoa Smokefree 2025. - Yeah, but if they take away this bill, what do they have? So they don't have one, do they? Have you heard what they've got there, Jules? - And this is the question` - Cos we haven't. - So this is the question ` what is the impact? What is the impact on the ground, Catherine, of this move? Under urgency ` so it didn't go to a select committee, didn't seek public feedback on what this coalition government has done. - Well, it says quite a loud picture, doesn't it, about the lack of value of our voices. We followed the process. We went to select committees. We put our written submissions in, and we echoed the voices of our people. And then we're told, 'It doesn't matter. 'We're gonna repeal this, not for any other reason, but because we have a deal with our partners, 'with our coalition partners. And what that will do on the ground ` it seems a very clear picture ` 'Don't engage with us. Don't come and talk to us 'when you want to co-design a programme that fits your needs 'and services that fit your needs. We will design it for you. We don't know what that looks like. 'And yes, you've been very successful,' but it's because the likes of us and those who have stood before us have stood beside the government of and successive governments in designing programmes and designing things that fit our people. - Not just previous governments, but also previous National governments. - Well, the National government, as Hone said, was, you know` they're the architect alongside the` they're the architect. And how do you take down the building you built? You know, that's really quite confusing for our people. - Anaru, the question comes to mind ` was the Smokefree` the previous Smokefree Aotearoa 2025 policy ` the policy introduced by the previous Labour government ` was it working? Would it have achieved the goals expressed by Aotearoa Smokefree 2025? - I think in terms of the smoking, it absolutely would have. It would've brought it down through to very minimal levels. There was also the issue around vaping, but in terms of getting rid of the smoking, surely it would have, and I can't see anything that the government will introduce will make any difference to it now. So I don't think there is an alternate plan. I think the plan will come straight from the tobacco industry if you ask me. - OK, we'll pick up vaping in the next part. Let's come back to what you just said. People have said that this will cost lives. Is that true? - Yep, absolutely. So we know that cigarette smoking costs thousands of lives every year. Some of the modelling is predicted up till 2040. There are over 3000 Maori lives that would be saved and over 8000 general population lives as well. So we know that you can quibble about how accurate that is, but it doesn't matter if it's 100, 200, 300, 400. How many lives need to be lost before you make a change? - What do you say in response to a government they might say, 'Well, those figures are` they are quibbling numbers. They might not be true numbers'? What do you say in response to a government that says something like that? And how do you respond when you hear that? - We absolutely know right now people die and are harmed by cigarettes and all these other products. We know that Maori are being exploited in particular. So it's not just the health harm; it's the costs. It's the loss of our whanau. You know, in terms of production and just our social networks, we see it on our pipeline and all that sort of thing. So I think it's a huge loss, and I'm disgusted at what this government has done. - But, Hone, people will say, and it has been said, I think, by members of the panel themselves, that actually, the previous government policy wasn't exactly what Maori wanted. What they wanted was greater advocacy by Maori for Maori. Maori-led tobacco policy. - Sure. Sure. That's fine. Um, that's what we wanted. But, you know, we were prepared to help drive this one because it was pushing the numbers down. And at the end of the day, Maori-led policy and all the rest of it ` we still wanted to see those numbers get down below the 5%. And the states say, the research says that the policies that had been enacted by Labour government were going to get us there. In terms of the numbers of people dying ` you know, we laud the accomplishments of the Maori Battalion. We mourn the loss of the 650 who died over there in that six-year World War II, uh, period. More than that die` Maori` die every single year from tobacco. More than they die every single year from tobacco. This is a huge... It's a huge kaupapa, and it's something that we've gotta be doing something about. I mean, they talk about their 100-day plan. If the numbers are right` And we don't make up the numbers; they come from the Pakeha statistics. If the numbers are right, in the 100 days that they've been in government, 200 Maori have lost their lives to tobacco. And they're doing nothing, absolutely nothing to try and change that trajectory. - We'll have more from our panel. Stay with us. We'll also talk about vaping, and we'll also talk about what the actions should be undertaken now in response to this government's policies on smokefree legislation. That is coming up after the break ` kia ita tonu mai. Hoki mai ra koutou ki ta tatou hui. E hikohiko nei. We have our panel with us ` Hone Harawira, Catherine Manning and Anaru Waa ` talking smokefree legislation. Now, I said we were going to talk about vaping. I think we should talk about it here, because it has been mentioned in dispatches by the associate health minister that vaping has had an impact in terms of driving down and declining the rates or decreasing the rates of smoking in New Zealand. So what about vaping? Isn't that something that can help, you know, achieve Aotearoa Smokefree 2025? - No. - Why not? - Because we didn't ask to be addicted. We didn't ask. We didn't` It wasn't an aspiration of ours to maintain addiction. What we asked for was to eliminate the harm that was being caused by the use of tobacco. So transferring on to another product, there is no doubt in our minds that it has helped some people quit vaping. But what it has also done is one vape into our whare is a vape for our tamariki and our mokopuna. - What are the rates on vaping? I mean, people say that it's at epidemic proportions. For rangatahi Maori. Is that true? - Uh, 12, 13 years ago, we had to call all of our whanau together at our kura and our senior school to talk about how serious smoking was at our school. Now, it's exactly the same problem, but it's all vaping. It's an absolute epidemic. Certainly within Maori rangatahi circles. Not just my kura, all around the country. Uh, and it's gotten a hold on our kids in a worse way than bloody tobacco did. Because with tobacco, you could smell it from a long way away. This stuff ` all you can tell is a puff, and it disappears. And you gotta get up close to smell whether it's candy or caramel. You know what I mean? - Yep. - But it's a huge epidemic, and it's really hard to root out of there. We've got really awesome kids at our kura, best kids in the country, actually. But still... - I beg to differ. (CHUCKLES) - But still, they've been hooked into this um... into this vaping, and it's addicting them. - Anaru, I thought the science on vaping wasn't settled. - The science on vaping is still` The science is still out on whether how harmful vaping is. And there's vapes, And then we've got heat not burns, which is a different type of product. Then we've got oral tobacco. So there's a whole range of products that are potentially gonna to be on the market. We don't know the harm for vaping just yet, especially for our rangatahi, but we do know about 22, just over 22% of our rangatahi use vaping daily, and that's three times higher than non-Maori. So even among non-Maori, it's high. When you think about their smoking rates, it's about 1%. And for rangatahi Maori, it's about 3%. So it's huge. And I think on a world scale, I heard recently that our vaping rate's amongst the highest in the world. It's just out of control. And what we don't hear from the government is a recognition of these inequities. So among Maori, we have higher smoking rates. They say we're almost there for the Smokefree 2025 goal. It's 6% or 7% for the general population. It's still at 17% Maori. It's colour-blind policy. Vaping is a lot worse. - And the government still says, though, that we have to recognise the impact that vaping has. So what's your immediate response when you hear that? - Then who has asked for it? Cos we didn't ask for it. If you look at every kura, as Hone said, ask any iwi what is it we want? We don't want addiction for our kids. - Look, the studies are only inconclusive because it hasn't been around long enough, but where it has been around long enough is in the United States. And this we do know from the United States experience. Um, vapes have the same harmful and toxic chemicals as cigarettes. They are even more unregulated and more addictive than cigarettes, because there's no control mechanisms over the use of nicotine. They can still cause stroke, heart attack and heart disease. They can harm the respiratory system. They can cause gum, mouth, throat diseases. This is stuff we're getting from the United States. They can cause cancer, and they do affect the brain development of under-25s. Big tobacco. Here's the other thing. Big tobacco getting smashed in smoking is buying up all of the vaping companies. So they're leading that as well. They are opposing the vaping regulations in all of the states in exactly the same way they opposed smoking. And the one other thing is, is now 40 states out of 52 in the US have introduced legislation to ban the use of vaping. - The accusation, many have said, is that this government has been captured by lobbyists and in particular lobbyists on behalf of big companies, tobacco companies. But they say that's not true, Hone. They say it's not true. - I don't see transparency in this government. We know that the speaker of the House has actually closed down on disclosing who the lobbyists are. I know Hone in his time and in Parliament, and I'm sure he also have something to say about it. Would've seen a lot of lobbyists coming through those doors, and those lobbyists aren't public health people. - Catherine? - You just have to ask ` who is asking for these policies? Cos the community isn't asking. It isn't coming from anywhere else. And when asked the question, and I heard it in the house, 'Who has asked for this?' there's crickets. - The government also says that its amendments now ` this policy that has been passed into law ` also removes the threat of danger to isolated dairies and shops who are selling tobacco that would drive a black market. - That's rubbish. - Why is it rubbish, Hone? - It's rubbish because Shane Reti has taken the advice of those` of those dairy owners who happen to be ` and you can see it at the bottom of their protest signs ` funded by the tobacco industry. You know, the tobacco retailers who are kicking up all of this fuss ` 'Oh, there's gonna be crime. Da-da, da-da, da-da' ` they brought a march to Wellington. Hello. We thought, 'Where can these little dairy owners afford to do that?' Actually, they're funded by the tobacco industry. Shane Richie has taken his advice from dairy owners who are funded by the tobacco industry. So that's the first thing. The other one about the black market, it's just a statement. No research, no evidence. The police aren't saying it. Nobody's saying it, just the government. So they're throwing stuff out there that has no basis in reality. - It's an old tobacco industry argument. We've heard it time and time again. - Yeah, my colleagues call it zombie argument. So they come up` It's out of the tobacco industry playbook. There's been research that looked at the illicit market. If anything, it's reducing. Overseas evidence suggests that tobacco on the illicit market is usually put in there by the industry itself anyway. - Catherine, what do we do now? I mean, we know this government supports iwi partnership boards. Certainly done that now with Te Aka Whai Ora. And now that's gone. But it still believes in iwi partnership wards. It says it wants to work with iwi. Is that an avenue by which we can get advocacy on behalf of Maori, particularly when it comes to Aotearoa Smokefree 2025? - Our people have to speak up. They have to have a voice about what it is they need. And I mean, the Whanau Ora services, which I work for, you know, that's our one-stop shop. And we talk about the whole person. Smoking's not the issue for our people when they walk through our door. There's a multitude of` multi layers of issues that they come through our doors for, And I think seeing them and valuing who they are first, before you start looking at the drivers that made them come through our door is really the solution, you know ` making sure that services are well funded. Actually, the government ` resource well our enforcement agencies, our clients. You want to say you want to put a stop to these single sales and the other stuff that's going on in our community. I don't see` Control purchase operations are happening throughout our community, and they're breaching all the time, weekly. So put resources into our enforcement officers; make sure they can do their job and do their job well; protect our communities. - Hone Harawira, Catherine Manning, Anaru Waa, tena koutou. Tena koutou katoa. Thank you very much for being a part of our panel here tonight. Really appreciate it. Nga mihi nui ki to tatou tapui tamaka. Kia ita tonu mai e te iwi ` after the break ` taking the past into the future through tukutuku. Ko te hui he whakapaho ake nei i tenei ka whakatau. You all good, mate? You warm enough? (LAUGHS) SONG: # Like an endless dream... # Nearly there, mate. # Wrap me in your arms... # GIRL: Oh! So that's the difference between Courier and Economy. - Hoki mai ano e hoa ma. Taking the traditional forward ` Te Hiku o te Ika descendant Awhina Murupaenga has built a thriving online business selling kits for making your own tukutuku panels. Under the mentorship of her kuia, she's helping to revive the traditional art practice, which was at threat of being lost 50 years ago. But Awhina is doing it in her own style. Mea nei te purongo a Meriana Johnsen. (UPBEAT MUSIC) - I have always wanted to run my own business and be an entrepreneur. Yeah, I had some pretty, like, big goals. - Awhina Murupaenga wasn't always so sure of herself. - I wasn't the person I am now 10 years ago. I was, like, quite closed, and, you know, I was lost. I had heaps of skills and heaps of dreams, but didn't know which one I wanted to pursue or follow through on. - West Auckland born and raised and third generation urban Maori. So growing up in Tamaki, did you know much about home? Did you know much about Ahipara? - Not at all. They were just words that I had learnt to recite for my pepeha. But I didn't know the ripples of our moana and the hau blowing of te ara wairua. I didn't know. They were just words. And then I'd get a phone call from a Ahipara from one of my best friends who asked me to move home and run our art gallery on our marae. - Ahipara, nestled in the far reaches of the winterless north. Population ` 1200. - It was a huge culture shock for me to move home. I had grown up in the city of busyness. Everything at your disposal. And I would move back to Ahipara. And the isolation was deafening. - But she also found something the city couldn't give her. - Moving home at 25, if I had a moved home at 35, 45, 55, 65, I would have missed out on that kuia, kaumatua ` meeting them, hearing their stories. - Whaea Pareaute Nathan, an expert weaver, took Awhina under her wing. Why did you choose Awhina to mentor? Did you see something in her? - (LAUGHS) She just came up here as a teenager, and she wanted to live the marae life. Because she'd been brought up in Auckland. She had the reo and everything else, but she wanted real grassroots stuff. - Just above the pene, yep. - It takes teamwork to weave tukutuku. - You have two people working together, and it's gotta be people who can work together. (CHUCKLES) And you have one in the front and one in the back. The one in the front ` they drive the pattern. And the one at the back ` just guide it from the back. - This is the gallery Awhina was called home to run, opened in 2010. - When we set this place up, we were putting it out there to market their wares so they get something back. - They responded to the need for employment in a really remote area. Learning about the entrepreneurial ahua within my tupuna was such a cool, cool experience. - While running the gallery, Awhina was also teaching tukutuku in schools. Then COVID hit three years ago, and inspiration struck to package her workshop into a craft kit for people to do at home. Over the next two months, she would build a social media presence before launching Whatu Creative. - I would sell out 200 toi kits in one hour and make $26,000, which was a lot of money. That would have been more money than I had made in that whole year. We had to come up with a real quick way to mass make these kits, because there was obviously a demand. I had to draw on all my whanau and friends to start our business. You're going to go through the front, just on the top corner. - As a Maori business, there are unique challenges. - Cos I had a huge fear when I started my Instagram page, like, 'Oh my God, I'm, like, profiting off matauranga Maori. People are gonna hate me.' - The commercial use of Maori language, designs and symbols has become a hot topic in recent years. - I think it's when you forget where you got that matauranga in your pakihi journey that you might get swayed by traditional business values. Just like you get an accountant, a lawyer ` just like you seek those out, it should be the same to find experienced Maori practitioners to guide you in your mahi. - Two years on from launch, and Whatu is going strong. - I've had like 0.01% of bad feedback. - Awhina is one of seven female business owners from Aotearoa selected for a global entrepreneur programme. She's received a $100,000 boost to her small business. So with that investment, what are you hoping to do with Whatu? - The main use of that putea will be to see Whatu Creative in most shops. I would like to be the leading Maori creative product sort of seller. - And she's not stopping there. - When you're raised by these bold women, um, you sort of pick up a few of their traits as well. I want to build more Te Whare Whiti Toi and ultimately a central hub to build an indigenous art school. - And she's backed by her own, who are happy to see the traditional art form given new life. - And I know it'll never be lost, because they're here carrying it through. - Haramai Ahipara. Whatu nehe, whatu hou. Coming up next week on the Hui ` Fatal dog attacks in Northland. - I just think about how scared he would have been. They were big dogs, and he was a small man. He had no chance. - Animal rescues at breaking point. - We have no power to do anything, so we just go back to the same brick wall and bang our head against it. - Are authorities stepping up? - I think council's doing as much as council can do at the moment. - Shut up and listen to our people, what they're saying. This has gotta be changed. - That's next week on the Hui. You can find our stories on all our usual social media pages and platforms, or indeed at newshub.co.nz. Join us next week for more. Kia mau, ki te turanga o taputapuatea, haumi e, hui e, taiki e. Captions by Jessie Puru. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Ko te reo te take. - Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa te Hui i tautoko.