CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, FORMER FINANCE MINISTER GRANT ROBERTSON REFLECTS ON HIS TIME IN PARLIAMENT, AS HE PREPARES FOR HIS FINAL SPEECH IN THE HOUSE. I THINK I'M GONNA CRY. (LAUGHS) REALLY? YEAH, I DO. THEN I SIT DOWN WITH THE HEAD OF ARGUABLY THE U.N'S MOST POLITICISED AGENCY. I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP. WHEN` (GIGGLES) SORRY. WE'LL HAVE THAT INTERVIEW SHORTLY, BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH THE NEW HEALTH MINISTER. SHANE RETI COMES INTO THE ROLE WITH A WORKFORCE UNDER HUGE STRAIN, DR SHANE RETI COMES INTO THE ROLE WITH A WORKFORCE UNDER HUGE STRAIN, AND ONE OF HIS FIRST STEPS AS MINISTER HAS BEEN TO RESTORE HEALTH TARGETS FAVOURED BY THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. MINISTER SHANE RETI, GOOD MORNING. WAVE YOU INTRODUCE THE HEALTH TARGETS? THEY SET A VERY CLEAR AGENDA FOR OUR HEALTH SYSTEM. THEY ALSO HOLD ACCOUNTABILITY IN ALL AREAS OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM AND ALL THOSE THINGS ARE GOOD FOR OUR HEALTH SYSTEM. LOOKING AT THE FIVE TARGETS THAT YOU ARE PUT FORWARD, LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAITING TIMES. HE SAID THOSE GIVE A SNAPSHOT OF THE HEALTH SECTOR. IN EMERGENCY ROOMS GAIN IN THE SYSTEM? THERE ARE NUMBER OF ARTICLES PRINTED ABOUT THAT. RAMPING AND TURNING THE CLOCK ON WHEN THEY ARRIVE. THEY WOULD KEEP PEOPLE IN THE AMBULANCE AND THEN THE CLOCK WOULD START WHEN THEY MOVED , IN SO RAMPING WAS ONE EXAMPLE. WITH KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT SOME OF THE GAMING WAS, I'M WATCHING VERY CAREFULLY. THERE WAS A STUDY BY OAKLAND UNIVERSITY RESEARCHERS IN 2019, AND THEY FOUND THAT... THEIR RESEARCH ESTABLISHED THAT GAME BEHAVIOUR WAS COMMON ACROSS ALL 4K STUDIES. IT WASN'T JUST RAMPING; DECANTING PATIENTS TO SHORTSTAY UNITS OBSERVATION BEDS, CLOCK STOPPING ` WHAT WE DO TO STOP THAT? ALSO CAME UP WITH MITIGATIONS AROUND THAT. AS HE SAID, YOU CAN START THE CLOCK AT DIFFERENT TIMES, AND ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT THE GAMING IS, YOU CAN MAKE IT VERY CLEAR. MOVEMENT FROM HERE TO THERE IS NOT THE END OF THE CLOCK FOR EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS, IT ACTUALLY ENDS WHEN THE PATIENT MOVES TO THE AWARD, SO THE ACTUAL CAME UP FOR SOME SOLUTIONS AS WELL. THE KEY RECOMMENDATION WAS TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION UNIT THAT IN PARTICULAR, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED ? IN IT IS NOTHING THAT I'VE HAD IN MY WORKS LIMIT THIS POINT. WE'VE GOT ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT GAMING WILL LIKE AND HOW WE WILL MITIGATED, THAT IS NOT TO SAY AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE WE WILL NOT. WE KNOW WE COUNT RAMPING HOURS. SO THE SHORTSTAY UNITS, JUST USE THIS ED EXAMPLE, IF YOU SET UP A ROOM AS A SHORTSTAY UNIT, SO YOU BRING PEOPLE THROUGH THE ED AND SAY THAT WE WILL SEE THEM AND WE WILL PUT THEM IN THIS ROOM, TECHNICALLY, THEN THE CLOCK STOPS. HOW DO YOU CHECK ON SOMETHING LIKE THAT? THERE ARE A NUMBER OF UNITS ALONGSIDE MOSTLY ROOMS CALLED ACUTE MEDICAL ASSESSMENT UNITS. THEY ARE ACTUALLY LEGITIMATE EXTENSIONS OF EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS. YOU CAN HAVE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT STAFF WORKING IN BOTH OF THEM. I WOULDN'T SUGGEST THAT THE CLOCK STOPS WHEN THEY GO THERE. YOU ARE STILL IN YOUR STABILISATION STAGE. A LARGE PART OF THAT WILL BE WHAT PART OF THE JOURNEY ARE WE CLASSIFYING A STOP AND START, AND BEING REALLY CLEAR ABOUT IT. YOU WOULDN'T SUPPORT AN INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION UNIT IN PRINCIPLE? I BELIEVE WE KNOW HOW TO NAVIGATE WHAT SOME OF THE BEHAVIOURS ARE. AROUND AVOIDING THE TARGETS. IF WE FIND PROBLEMS, I WILL NOT TAKE THAT OUT OF THE MIX. THOSE FIVE TARGETS ` CANCER TREATMENT, KIDS KIDS IMMUNISATION, IMMUNISATION IS THE PRIME TARGET. 95% AT YEAR TWO, THAT IS PRIMARY CARE. THAT'S NOT THE ONLY REASON PEOPLE GO TO THE GP. NO, BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE TOO MANY TARGETS. THAT IS THE ONE ANY PRIME TO DO WELL. QUESTION IS BEING RAISED - IS ITS AMBITIOUS ENOUGH? WE HAVE NEVER REACHED 95%. I'M NOT DISPUTING THE MERIT IN HAVING THE TARGET AROUND IMMUNISATION AROUND KIDS. SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN SEE THAT THERE IS A LOT OF MERIT IN THAT IDEA, BUT GPS DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS. IT IS THE PART OF THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM LUCKY REACHES THE MOST. UNDERNEATH THESE TOP FIVE TARGETS ARE A RANGE OF LESS REPORTED TARGETS, SUCH AS PHOs, KEEPING CHILDREN OUT OF HOSPITAL, WHAT ABOUT A TARGETS FOR KIWI SEEING THEIR GP? THIS MAY WELL BE A TARGET THAT WE BRING AS WELL FOR PRIMARY CARERS. PARTICULAR AROUND WORKFORCE. WE NEED NEEDS TO BE ACHIEVABLE. SO IT IS TOO HARD? IT IS CERTAINLY CHALLENGING. ISN'T THAT THE POINT OF A TARGET? AS I SAID, VERY AMBITIOUS. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A BROAD TARGET FOR THE PART OF A HEALTH SYSTEM THAT THEORIES ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH THE MOST? THE PHOs HAVE THOSE TARGETS. ACCORDING TO HEALTH NEW ZEALAND, I'M PUTTING ON A SPOTTER, DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY NEW ZEALANDERS COULD GET AN APPOINTMENT WITH THEIR GP LAST YEAR? I WOULDN'T HAVE THAT FIGURE. IT IS ABOUT HALF A MILLION ADULTS AND 73,000 CHILDREN. WHY NOT STRUCTURE A TARGET AROUND THAT? THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION ON PRIMARY CARE AS TO WHAT THEY WILL THINK IS A REASONABLE TARGET. THOSE DISCUSSIONS ARE STILL TO BE HAD, PARTICULARLY IN THE CONTEXT THAT WE HAVE IN THE MOMENT WITH THE CONSTRAINT OF THE WORKFORCE. IT IS NOT A TARGET THAT I WOULD TAKE OUT MYSELF A DEEP DISCUSSION WITH THE PRIMARY CARE SECTOR. WHY HAVEN'T YOU HAD THAT THE DISCUSSION YET? OBVIOUS IN THE PRIMARY WORKFORCE IS UNDER HUGE STRAIN OF THE MOMENT. PRIMARY CARE IS TELLING US THAT STABILISING THE PARAMETER BAR AND IS THE FIRST CONCERN, AND I WERE THAT MEANS IS THAT ITS WORKFORCE AND ITS NUMERATION, SYSTEM MAY STABILISE THE WORKFORCE, AND THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT BE ACHIEVABLE TARGETS ONCE WE HAVE THE GOOD JOB WITH THAT. THE NEW ZEALAND MEDICAL JOURNAL FOUND THAT ALMOST 80% OF GP RESPONDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY EITHER CLOSED OR LIMITED THEIR ENROLMENTS FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS. THERE ARE MANY THOUSANDS OF KIWIS WHO CAN'T ACTUALLY GET ENROLLED WITH THE GP AT THE MOMENT. IS THE GENERAL PRACTICE MODEL FOR PURPOSE? IT IS BROKEN, IT IS BEEN BROKEN FOR A WHILE. I THINK MOST PRIMARY CARE PRACTITIONERS ARE LANDING IS WITH SOME OF THE PRINCIPLES FROM THE REPORT FROM 2022. IT SAID THAT THE FUNDING THAT WE DO HAVE DOESN'T GO TO THE RIGHT PLACE. YOU ARE THE HEALTHIEST PERSON IN NEW ZEALAND IN A CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHIC, AND THEN YOU ARE THE ELLIS PERSON IN NEW ZEALAND, PRACTICES RECEIVE THE SAME FUNDING FOR EACH. THAT MAKES NO SENSE. THAT INCENTIVISES GPS NOT TO TAKE ON PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MORE COMPLEX POSITION? YOU THINK THAT HAPPENS/ I THINK PRACTICES WILL RECEIVE PATIENTS WHO ARE IN NEED REGARDLESS, IS MY VIEW, BUT IT ALSO COMES BACK TO SAYING WHERE THE WORK IS DONE IS WHETHER FUNDING SHOULD BE. SO THAT REDISTRIBUTION OF CAPITATION FUNDING IS ONE PART. JUST TO BE CLEAR ` YOU BELIEVE THAT THE CURRENT FUNDING MODEL INCENTIVISES GPS NOT TO TAKE ON PEOPLE WITH MORE COMPLEX HEALTH ISSUES? I DO NOT BELIEVE MY COLLEAGUES WILL INTENTIONALLY CREAM SKIM. WHEN WILL YOU CHANGE THAT FUNDING MODEL? THERE IS NEW FUNDING AND REDISTRIBUTION OF THE EXISTING FUNDING, AND THAT IS QUITE COMPLEX. IT WILL HAVE IMPLICATIONS FOR LIKE THE VLCA PRACTICES. I DON'T WANT TO WAIT TOO LONG, AS I UNDERSTAND THE GENERAL PRACTICE` GIVE US A TIMEFRAME. IN THE NEXT WATER 15 MONTHS WE WILL BE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGING THE STRUCTURE OF PRIMARY CARE. WHAT YOU DO TO STOP NURSES GOING TO AUSTRALIA? THAT IS A CHALLENGE. LARGE CHALLENGE OF THEM ACTUALLY MOVE ON TO AUSTRALIA, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE HAD A LARGE NUMBER OF IQ ENDS COMING IN HERE. SO DON'T EVEN COME HERE, THEY REGISTER IN THE UK, THEY DON'T STEP FOOT IN NEW ZEALAND. I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO THE NURSING COUNCIL. THAT IS A CHALLENGE. MAY BE OUR GREATER ATTENTION SHOULD BE FOR OUR DOMESTIC NURSES. WE HAVE ALL HAD INVESTMENT IN THEM, AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE LOOKING TO MIDDLE AUSTRALIA. HOW YOU KEEP IN HERE? AND THERE IS A WAGES AND SALARY PART AND THERE IS A TERMS AND CONDITIONS PART. TERMS AND CONDITIONS ARE THINGS LIKE SCOPE EXTENSION, ARE YOU VALUED IN YOUR JOB, CAREER OVER A LIFETIME. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE TERMS ARE COMMISSIONS. WAGES AND SALARY ` COURSE AT THE FEATURE. WHAT ARE YOU IMPROVING? WE ARE IMPROVING ALL OF THESE AREAS. YOU ARE IMPROVING PAY? NOT TO GO INTO THAT. WERE STILL NOT COMPARABLE WITH AUSTRALIA, BUT THAT IS A READY IMPROVED. THIS GOT MORE NURSE PRACTITIONERS COMING INTO THE WORKFORCE, SCOPE EXTENSION. IN YOUR CAMPAIGN, YOU PROMISED $30 MILLION TONEW HOSPITALS ` ARE YOU STILL COMMITTED TO THAT? HAWKE'S BAY AND WHANGAREI REMAIN PRIORITIES. THAT HAVE NOT HAPPENED YOUR GOVERNMENT? I HOPE SO. ESTIMATED ANNUAL REQUIREMENT FOR PROFITABLE VENTURES ALMOST EQUIVALENT TO A NEW DUNEDIN HOSPITAL EVERY YEAR FROM 2013 3 TO 2052, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THAT? HEALTH HAS FUNDING NEEDS, EDUCATION SWANAGE, THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF GET UMM-E-HANI BACK ON TRACK. THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF GETTING THE ECONOMY BACK ON TRACK* ONE OF THE BENEFITS BEING ABLE TO SEE ACROSS THE WHOLE ENTERPRISE FOR INFRASTRUCTURE. DHBS WHO ARE DOING THEIR OWN THING NOW THEY CAN SEE ACROSS THE WHOLE OF THE COUNTRY, THAT IS USEFUL FROM A PLANNING PERSPECTIVE. THAT WILL HELP US PRIORITISE. READING THE INFRASTRUCTURE COMMISSION REPORT, ALL OF THE INFO STRUCTURE THEY CONSIDER A NEW ZEALAND, HOSPITALS WERE ONES THAT HAD BEEN MOST UNDERFUNDED ` HUNDRED AND $15 BILLION, THAT IS A FANTASTICAL SUM, SHOULD RESPEC TO SEE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS FROM THE COALITION GOVERNMENT OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS? YOU HAVE SEEN OUR ENDEVOURS AROUND FAST-TRACK CONSENTING, ACROSS ALL OF THE COVENANT, YOU'RE SEEN OUR OMISSIONS SUCH, AND I AM PLEASED THAT HOSPITALS WRITE THEMSELVES AS BEING HIGH PRIORITY. IN THE CAMPAIGN, NATIONAL SPECIFIED 13 CANCER DRUGS THAT FIGURE AND WILL DIRECTLY FUND, WHAT IS TO STOP THE DRUG COMPANIES CHARGING WHATEVER THEY WANT? CANCER CONTROL AGENCY CONTROLS WHATEVER THESE MEDICINES WILL BE. WHAT WE ALSO SAID DURING THE CAMPAIGN WAS THAT WE WILL FUND THAT WOULD BE FUNDING OF CO-PAY. WE NEED TO 1ST FUNDED, THEN WE WILL RELOOK AT THAT MODEL. OUR AMBITION HERE IS TO HAVE MORE ACCESS TO ONCOLOGICAL` I UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT IS TO STOP THOSE DRUG COMPANIES CHARGING WHATEVER THEY WANT? WE WILL BE CONSISTENT WITH THE FUNDING MODEL. WE WANT TO ANYTHING` THE WHOLE THING IS NOT CONSISTENT. WITH OUR PLANS. WE WON'T DO ANYTHING THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE FUNDING MODEL. I HAVE PROMISED WE WILL FUND. AT THAT POINT IN TIME IT IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUSTRALIA. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE NEGOTIATION. WE ARE GOING TO FUND THESE DRUGS, BUT FOR NATIONAL. AFTER THE ELECTION, YOU FULFIL THE PROMISE. THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES KNOW YOU ARE COMMITTED TO FUNDING THOSE DRUGS. WHAT IS TO STOP THEM CHARGING WHATEVER THEY LIKE? THAT IS NOT THE ONE DRUG WE WILL BE PROVIDING. THEY WANT OTHER PARTS OF THE SCHEDULE, SO THEY WANT TO BE COLLABORATIVE. I DON'T JUST WANT TO LOCALISE; THEY MAY WELL HAVE OTHER PREPARATIONS THEY WANT FARM ACTUALLY PART OF. WHAT WOULD THEY CONSIDER THAT? THEY CONSIDER A RANGE OF PRODUCTS. THAT CAN BE DISTRIBUTED THEY WILL SAY YOU OVERCHARGE US FOR ONE OF THE 13 DRUGS THE NATIONAL PARTY PROMISED TO FUND DURING THE CAMPAIGN, SO WE WILL WITHHOLD FUNDING FOR ONE OF THESE OTHERS. THIS IS A BUNDLE OF MEDICINES THAT YOU HAVE. THIS IS ONE OF THE CANCER MEDICINE THAT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT. KIMMY WRAP ALL THAT TOGETHER? IN PRINCIPLE, IS A GOOD PRACTICE FOR POLITICIANS TO DICTATE WEATHER WITH ADVICE WITH THE AGENCY OR OTHERWISE, IS A GOOD PRACTICE FOR POLITICIANS TO DICTATE MEDICINE/ THE CANCER CAN TRAWL AGENCY CHOSE THEM. THEY COULD HAVE CHOSEN A DIFFERENT SET. IT IS A GOOD IDEA FOR POLITICIANS TO GO OUTSIDE THE USUAL PROCESS? IT IS A GOOD IDEA FOR POLITICIANS WHEN THEY SEE A GAP BETWEEN AUSTRALIANS IN NEW ZEALAND. AS SOMEONE WHO HAS GIVEN HIS LIFE TO BETTERING HEALTH IN THE COMMUNITY, HOW MANY LIVES WOULD THE SMOKE-FREE LEGISLATION HAVE SAVED? 4 TO 8000 HAS BEEN REPORTED IN THE MEDIA. WHAT WE HAVE SAID IS THE SMOKE-FREE RATES ARE COMING DOWN, ONE OF THE BIGGEST GAPS WE HAVE EVER HAD. WE REMAIN COMMITTED TO DRIVING THEM DOWN. THAT IS THE CONTEXT FOR THE SMOKE-FREE. YOU REMAIN COMMITTED TO DRIVING THEM DOWN. HOW WE DRIVE THEM DOWN? THAT IS WORK THAT IS STILL IN FRONT OF COMMITTEES THAT I CAN'T DISCUSS HERE. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO BRING THAT FORWARD. THE PREVIOUS SMOKE-FREE LEGISLATION WAS SET TO COME INTO FORCE IN JULY. WILL YOUR WORK BE DONE BY THEN? WE ARE LOOKING TO CERTAINLY HAVE PARTS OF THE LEGISLATION THAT WILL BE OUR SOLUTION, ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS FOR DISCUSSION. THE MODELLING FOR THE SMOKE-FREE LEGISLATION IT INDICATED BETWEEN FOUR AND 8000 LIVES WOULD BE SAVED. WOULD YOUR TOBACCO POLICY SAFE MORE OF YOUR LIVES? IF WE CONTINUE TO DRIVE DOWN THE SMOKING RATES, THE EXPECTATION IS YEARS. YES TO WHAT? YES TO REDUCING RATES. THE QUESTION WAS MORE OR FEWER? WE WOULD NEED TO MODEL THAT. YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU ARE WORKING ON SMOKING LEGISLATION THAT ULTIMATELY MAY SAVE FEWER LIVES ACCORDING TO MODELLING THAN THE PREVIOUS LAWS THAT WERE IN PLACE? I NEED TO SEE THAT MODELLING MYSELF. THAT IS NOT IN MY PURVIEW. YOU ARE THE HEALTH MINISTER. THIS IS A VITAL POINT. WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THIS IS A COLLECTIVE CABINET DECISION. THIS IS VITAL. GIVEN YOUR EXPERTISE IN THE SPACE, YOUR LIFETIME OF WORK SEEKING TO BETTER THE HEALTH OF YOUR COMMUNITIES, WILL THE SMOKE-FREE WORK THAT YOU PUT IN PLACE HAVE BEEN SCRAPPED THE PREVIOUS SMOKE-FREE LEGISLATION SAVE MORE OR FEWER LIVES THAN THE PREVIOUS LEGISLATION WAS MODELLED TO SAVE? THAT WILL NEED TO BE MODELLED ON THE PROPOSALS THAT WE ARE BRINGING FORWARD. WE ARE COMMITTED TO DRIVING DOWN SMOKING RATES. WILL YOU SUPPORT IT IF YOU'RE MODELLING SUGGEST THAT YOUR SMOKE-FREE WORK WILL SAVE YOU A LIVES? I WOULD NEED TO SEE THAT TO MAKE THE DECISION. IT IS NOT A HYPOTHETICAL. WE REMAIN COMMITTED TO DRIVING DOWN SMOKING RATES. WE HAVE HAD ONE OF THE BIGGEST DROP WITHOUT THAT REGISTRATION. WHETHER OR NOT YOURS IS GOING TO SAVE MORE OF YOUR LIVES? HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONTACT WITH TOBACCO LOBBYISTS? NO. NOT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. BECAUSE LIKE. AFTER THE BREAK ` REFLECTING ON THE COVID RESPONSE, GRANT ROBERTSON TELLS US WHAT HE'D DO DIFFERENTLY WITH HIS TIME AGAIN. ON WEDNESDAY, GRANT ROBERTSON WILL MAKE HIS VALEDICTORY SPEECH AS HE PREPARES TO LEAVE PARLIAMENT FOR HIS NEW ROLE AS VICE-CHANCELLOR OF OTAGO UNIVERSITY. ROBERTSON WAS FINANCE MINISTER FOR TWO TERMS, AND AT A CRITICAL JUNCTURE IN MODERN NEW ZEALAND HISTORY, OVERSEEING THE PANDEMIC'S ECONOMIC RESPONSE. I SAT DOWN WITH HIM IN PARLIAMENT'S GRAND HALL AND REFLECTED ON HIS 15 YEARS AS AN MP. CAN I BE CHEEKY AND JUST CHECK IF THE SHACKLES ARE OFF IN THIS INTERVIEW OR NOT? (CHUCKLES) IS TAKING GST OFF FRESH FRUIT AND VEGETABLES A GOOD PIECE OF PUBLIC POLICY? WELL, IT DIDN'T WORK, DID IT? (LAUGHS) IS THAT A NO? OH, LOOK, I MEAN, I THINK I CAN UNDERSTAND 100% WHERE CHRIS HIPKINS WAS COMING FROM WITH THAT. IT WAS A WAY OF MAKING COST OF LIVING RELIEF REAL. PEOPLE WILL BE WELL AWARE ABOUT WHAT I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT POLICY. LET'S GO BACK. WHEN YOU MADE YOUR MAIDEN SPEECH IN THE HOUSE, YOUR GRANDDAD WAS SITTING UP IN THE PEWS. I THINK HE WAS 89 YEARS OLD AT THAT TIME. HE HIMSELF WAS A FORMER LABOUR CANDIDATE, AND YOU SPOKE ABOUT YOUR SHARED AMBITION TO MAKE NEW ZEALAND A FAIRER AND MORE EQUAL PLACE. IT IS A BIG QUESTION, BUT IF YOU LOOK BACK AT THE NEW ZEALAND OF 2008, WHEN YOU STARTED HERE, AND COMPARE IT WITH THE NEW ZEALAND OF TODAY, IS IT A FAIRER AND MORE EQUAL PLACE? IN SOME WAYS, YES, AND IN SOME WAYS, NO. BECAUSE THE BIG EVENT THAT OCCURRED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW WAS THE NINE YEARS OF THE JOHN KEY-LED GOVERNMENT. AND IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME, WHAT WE SPENT AS A COUNTRY ON THE THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE US FAIRER REDUCED SIGNIFICANTLY. AND WHEN WE CAME IN IN 2017, THINGS WERE FURTHER BACK FROM WHERE WE WERE, SO IS IT FAIRER BECAUSE WE BUILT A LOT MORE SAFE HOUSES? YES, I THINK IT IS. WE DID LIFT A LOT OF KIDS OUT OF POVERTY, AND THEN WE BANGED IN TO THE INFLATION ` THE BIG INFLATION SPIKE ` WHICH HAS CAUSED SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS TO COME BACK A LITTLE BIT, BUT WE DID DO GOOD THINGS THERE. WE RESTORED THE RATES OF MAIN BENEFITS TO WHERE THEY WERE AT THE EQUIVALENT LEVELS BEFORE THE MOTHER OF ALL BUDGETS IN 1991. SO WE DID GOOD THINGS TO MAKE THE COUNTRY A FAIRER PLACE. BUT THERE'S AN OLD SAYING IN LABOUR PARTY POLITICS THAT THE JOURNEY TO SOCIAL JUSTICE NEVER ENDS, AND THERE'S STILL A LOT MORE TO DO THERE. ARE YOU A REGRETS GUY? NOT REALLY, NO. OK, WELL, REFLECTING ON YOUR TIME AS FINANCE MINISTER WITH THE USUAL CAVEAT THAT YOU FELT YOU MADE THE BEST DECISIONS WITH THE INFORMATION YOU HAD AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, WHAT DECISIONS STAND OUT AS BEING THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT DO DIFFERENTLY? I'M NOT A REGRETS GUY, AND THEREFORE, I DON'T REGRET THIS, BUT I THINK I'VE CHANGED MY MIND, AND THAT'S AROUND THE LEVEL OF PUBLIC DEBT THAT'S SUSTAINABLE. THIS IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO EXCITE THE VIEWERS ENORMOUSLY, BUT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. IN 2017, WE HAD TO PROVE OUR BONA FIDES ON RUNNING THE ECONOMY, AND JAMES SHAW AND I ACTUALLY CAME UP WITH THE BUDGET RESPONSIBILITY RULES TOGETHER FOR LABOUR AND THE GREENS, AND THAT MEANT THAT WE WERE GOING TO KEEP OUR LEVEL OF NET DEBT AT 20% OF GDP. THAT'S HISTORICALLY BEEN SOMETHING GOVERNMENTS HAVE TRIED TO DO. AND NEW ZEALAND DOES NEED A LOWER LEVEL OF PUBLIC DEBT THAN SOME OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE HAVE NATURAL DISASTERS AND WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY. BUT KEEPING SLAVISHLY TO A PERCENTAGE LIKE THAT MEANS WE'RE NOT INVESTING ENOUGH IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE. AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. WE SHOULD USE OUR BALANCE SHEET MORE AND BETTER TO INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE, AND OVER TIME, WE DID INCREASE THAT. AND YOU'LL HEAR A LOT FROM THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT ABOUT WHERE THE LEVELS OF DEBT ARE AT. BUT WHAT INCREASING OUR DEBT HAS DONE HAS ENABLED US TO INVEST MORE IN TRANSPORT, MORE INTO HEALTH AND EDUCATION CAPITAL, MORE INTO THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO UNDERPIN THE KIND OF SOCIETY AND ECONOMY WE WANT, AND I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR TO ME NOW THAT IF WE WERE TO EVER GO BACK DOWN TO THOSE SORTS OF PERCENTAGES OF DEBT, WE WOULD BE DENYING FUTURE GENERATIONS THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED. THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING. YOU ARE DOUBLING DOWN ON SPENDING, BECAUSE IF YOU GO BACK TO THAT INITIAL COVID RESPONSE, RIGHT, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE AGREED AT THE TIME THAT THE BEST FISCAL APPROACH WAS TO SPEND TO TRY AND AVOID THE KIND OF HORROR SCENARIO THAT TREASURY WAS POINTING OUT YOU COULD BE FACING ` 10% UNEMPLOYMENT, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT IN THE YEARS AFTER COVID, EVEN WHEN THE BOOKS WERE PRETTY GOOD AND UNEMPLOYMENT WAS AT 3-POINT-SOMETHING, YOU KEPT ON DELIVERING BUDGETS WITH MASSIVE DEFICITS. DID NEW ZEALANDERS GET VALUE FOR MONEY FOR THAT SPEND? I THINK WHAT NEW ZEALANDERS GOT IS WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO, WHICH IS INVEST IN PUBLIC SERVICES, INVEST IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, PAY TEACHERS PROPERLY, MAKE SURE WE RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE PAST ON PAY EQUITY DEALS. JACK, WE MEASURE THINGS IN NEW ZEALAND AS A PERCENTAGE OF GDP. AND THE REASON WE DO THAT IS SO YOU CAN DO IT CONSISTENTLY OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT WE WERE SPENDING ON, YOU KNOW, CORE CROWN EXPENSES, WHEN WE CAME IN IN 2017, IT WAS 27% OF GDP. IT'S SITTING UP AROUND SORT OF 32%, AND IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN A BIT. IF WE KEEP SPENDING AROUND THAT 27%, THAT'S AUSTERITY. THAT MEANS THERE'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY. AND WHEN PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE HEALTH SYSTEM, THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW LONG THEY MIGHT HAVE TO WAIT IN AN EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR KIDS' SCHOOL, THAT'S CAUSED BY US NOT INVESTING ENOUGH. AND SO I DO STAND BY WHAT WE DID THERE. WERE THERE THE ODD THING WHERE, YOU KNOW, THINGS DIDN'T PLAY OUT THE WAY WE WANTED? SURE. LIKE WHAT? THAT HAPPENS TO EVERY GOVERNMENT. IT HAPPENS TO EVERY GOVERNMENT, AND IT'S A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. WHAT STANDS OUT FOR YOU? THERE'S NOT A PARTICULAR EXAMPLE` BUT IT'S THE QUALITY OF THE SPEND, RIGHT? YOU SAY THAT THE SPEND IS IMPORTANT WHEN IT COMES TO PUBLIC SERVICES, BUT THE QUALITY OF THE SPEND IS THE THING THAT CONCERNS A LOT OF CRITICS. LET'S TAKE A THINK ABOUT, LIKE, HOSPITALS, HEALTH CAPITAL. I REMEMBER JACINDA SAYING TO ME ONCE, YOU KNOW, 'DO I REALLY HAVE TO GO TO THE OPENING 'OF ANOTHER KIND OF ELEVATOR?' BECAUSE WE WERE DOING THE BASICS. WE WERE HAVING TO GO BACK AND REINVEST IN THERE. AND I'D SAY ONE THING ABOUT THAT, WHICH IS I THINK WE NEED TO BE CLEARER WITH PEOPLE ABOUT THE LENGTH OF TIME, THE REBUILDING, FOR EXAMPLE, OF THE HEALTH SYSTEM'S GOING TO TAKE. YOU KNOW, WE WERE BEING JUDGED AS SOON AS WE'D DONE THE REFORMS ` WHERE IS THE IMPROVEMENT? AND THE REALITY IS THAT IT'S A 10-YEAR PROGRAMME TO GET THAT HEALTH SYSTEM BACK. SO WE COULD'VE BEEN BETTER AROUND EXPECTATION MANAGEMENT ON SOME OF THAT, FOR SURE. WHAT ABOUT STUFF LIKE THE COST OF LIVING PAYMENT? YEAH, I MEAN, 98-POINT-SOMETHING PERCENT OF THE COST OF LIVING PAYMENT WENT TO WHERE EXACTLY WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE, AND 1-POINT-SOMETHING PERCENT WENT TO PLACES` TO PEOPLE IT SHOULDN'T HAVE. INFLATIONARY? NO, I WOULDN'T SAY SO. AND IF IT WAS, NO LESS SO THAN` SORRY, NO MORE SO THAN ANY OTHER FORM OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING. THIS IS SOMETHING I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, JACK, WHICH IS THE CONTRIBUTION OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING TO INFLATION. THERE ARE A LOT OF FORCES IN WHAT IS CAUSING INFLATION. AND THE POLITICAL DEBATE CAN BE TURNED INTO A CARTOON ABOUT IT'S THE GOVERNMENT SPENDING THAT'S THE BIG FACTOR IN THAT. THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT FORCES ON THAT, AND THAT LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING ON THE COVID INCOME RELIEF PAYMENT IS MINUSCULE IN TERMS OF THE WHOLE ECONOMY AND WHAT CAUSES INFLATION. SO HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY DO YOU TAKE FOR THE INFLATION SPIKE? WE WERE PART OF A GLOBAL SITUATION WHERE INFLATION WAS RISING. SURE ` RESERVE BANK PLAYS A ROLE AS WELL. WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY? WE INVESTED SIGNIFICANTLY IN COVID, AND THIS IS WHERE YOU DON'T GET TO DO THE GOVERNING IN HINDSIGHT THING THAT ACTUALLY WE TOOK THE DECISIONS WE TOOK, AND IN THOSE YEARS WHEN COVID FINISHED ` BUDGET 2022, BUDGET 2023 ` WE WERE REBUILDING PUBLIC SERVICES. BUT YOU WERE DOING THINGS LIKE TAKING MONEY FROM THE COVID FUND TO PAY FOR CAMERAS ON FISHING BOATS. WHAT WE WERE` TANGENTIALLY RELATED AT BEST. YEAH, SO THAT WAS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. AND THAT WAS PART OF THE COVID RESPONSE AND RECOVERY FUND. AND YOU DO HAVE TO TAKE YOURSELF BACK, JACK, TO THOSE TIMES. WE WERE THINKING ABOUT A SITUATION WHERE NOT ONLY WERE WE GOING TO HAVE TO RESPOND TO COVID, BUT WE WERE GOING TO SEE THE ECONOMY REALLY SLOW DOWN. AND WE DID INVEST IN A NUMBER OF AREAS THAT WERE ABOUT STIMULATING RECOVERY. I STAND BY THOSE DECISIONS, AND ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU GO OUT INTO PROVINCIAL NEW ZEALAND AND YOU SEE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE DID, THEY'VE HAD REALLY GOOD, POSITIVE BENEFITS. I GUESS THE POINT AT LARGE IS THAT AT SOME POINT, ALL OF THAT DEBT, WHICH YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE HIGHER THAN YOU INITIALLY THOUGHT WHEN YOU TOOK OVER AS FINANCE MINISTER, HAS TO BE REPAID AND THE DEBT HAS TO BE REPAID BY YOUNGER GENERATIONS WHO DON'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE ASSETS THAT OLDER GENERATIONS HAD. AND THOSE ARE THE OLDER GENERATIONS THAT BENEFITED FROM MASSIVE ASSET INFLATION, IN PART BECAUSE OF YOUR POLICIES IN THE COVID RESPONSE. WE DEFINITELY HAVE TO SPREAD THE COST OF INVESTING IN IMPORTANT ASSETS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT FUNDAMENTAL POINT? THAT ONE RESULT OF NEW ZEALAND'S ECONOMIC RESPONSE WAS A WEALTH TRANSFER TO HOMEOWNERS WHO ARE OVERWHELMINGLY LIKELY TO BE OLDER, WHILE TENS OF BILLIONS IN DEBT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE REPAID OVER YOUNGER PEOPLE'S WORKING LIVES. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT POINT? I ACCEPT THE FIRST PART OF THAT POINT, PARTICULARLY. I DO ACCEPT THAT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT IN MAKING SURE THAT WE BOLSTERED THE MARKETS IN NEW ZEALAND, IT DID HAVE THE EFFECT OF THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE ASSETS, SEEING THOSE ASSETS RISE IN VALUE. AGAIN, I'D INVITE YOU TO HAVE A LOOK AROUND THE WORLD AND SEE WHETHER THAT WAS REALLY ANY DIFFERENT ANYWHERE BECAUSE OF THE WAY MONEY MARKETS WORK. BUT REMEMBER, WE WERE GETTING REPORTS MARCH, APRIL 2020 THAT TOLD US THAT FINANCIAL MARKETS AROUND THE WORLD WERE COLLAPSING, BOND MARKETS WEREN'T ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND. AND WE DID NEED TO DO WHAT WE DID. NOW, YOU'VE POINTED YOURSELF OUT, THE RESERVE BANK MADE THOSE DECISIONS. WE GAVE THEM THE TOOLS TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AND YOU LOOK AT IT NOW, IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT VIEW FROM WHERE WE WERE IN 2020. THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS BY FAR THE GREATEST BENEFICIARIES OF THE FISCAL RESPONSE WERE WORKERS AND SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS AND SOLE TRADERS, BECAUSE THEY WERE THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MADE` GOT THEIR BUSINESSES TO BE ABLE TO CARRY ON. THE BIG BUSINESSES ` SURE, THEY GOT SOME BENEFIT. THE HOMEOWNERS ` THEY GOT SOME BENEFIT. BUT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY BREAK DOWN THE NUMBERS, SMALL BUSINESSES, PEOPLE KEEPING THEIR JOBS AND HAVING SOLE TRADERS, ARTISTS AND OTHERS, WHO COULD ACTUALLY ACCESS THAT FUNDING, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REALLY BENEFITED. THE WELFARE EXPERT ADVISORY GROUP RECOMMENDATIONS, TAX REFORM, THREE WATERS, THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY, THE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT REFORMS, INCOME INSURANCE, AUCKLAND LIGHT RAIL, TE PUKENGA, MEDIA REFORMS. A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL LOOK BACK AT THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT AND NOTE THAT EVEN WITH AN HISTORIC MAJORITY, THERE WAS A HUGE AMOUNT OF STUFF YOU EITHER DIDN'T TACKLE OR ULTIMATELY DIDN'T STICK. WHY? WELL, SOME OF THOSE THINGS DIDN'T STICK BECAUSE WE LOST THE ELECTION. SOME OF THEM DIDN'T STICK BECAUSE THE ECONOMY DIDN'T GROW THE WAY THAT WE WANTED IT TO, AND THERE WERE OTHER PRIORITIES THAT HAD TO COME ALONG, AND YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT WHEN YOU'RE GOVERNING. SOME OF THAT, COVID GOT IN THE WAY AND MEANT THAT WE DIDN'T GET AS FAR ON A PROJECT AS WE WOULD HAVE LIKED. IT IS THE REALITY OF BEING IN GOVERNMENT THAT NOT EVERYTHING YOU TRY ENDS UP FINISHING. YOU WON'T WANT ME TO DO IT NOW, BUT I CAN START DOING THE COUNTER LIST OF THE NUMBER OF STATE HOUSES AND THE NUMBER OF APPRENTICES` THOSE ARE MASSIVE PROJECTS, THOUGH. ...AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS. AND I SUPPOSE THE UNIQUE THING IS THAT YOU HAD A MAJORITY, AND I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT FROM YOUR POSITION OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, IT HAS BEEN A PRETTY GALLING EXPERIENCE TO SIT THERE AND WATCH THE SWORD OF DAMOCLES FALL ON ALL OF THOSE BIG PROJECTS. ARE THE LESSONS FOR THE LABOUR PARTY IN THE FUTURE WHEN GOVERNING THAT WOULD MAKE SOME OF THOSE BIG REFORMS MORE LIKELY TO STICK? I'M ALWAYS REALLY INTERESTED BY WHAT PEOPLE THINK THE MANDATE WAS THAT WE GOT IN 2020. I MEAN, WE GOT A MANDATE ON THE BASIS OF A POLICY PLATFORM THAT WE PUT FORWARD ` IT WASN'T A MANDATE JUST TO DO ANYTHING. JUST BECAUSE WE HAD THE MAJORITY DIDN'T MEAN WE COULD GO... 'FORGET WHAT WE CAMPAIGNED ON. 'LET'S JUST DO A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS.' WE HAD A PARTICULAR MANDATE, AND WE TRIED TO DRIVE FORWARD ON THAT. IN TERMS OF WHAT THE LESSONS ARE THAT ARE LEARNED, I DO THINK IT'S VALID TO SAY WE PROBABLY BIT OFF MORE THAN WE COULD CHEW, BUT THAT'S THE NATURE OF BEING IN THE LABOUR PARTY. AND FUNNILY ENOUGH, IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I LIKE BEING IN THE LABOUR PARTY IS BECAUSE WE DO CHASE DOWN THE BIG ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE SOLVED, AND ULTIMATELY, THIS GOVERNMENT WILL NEED TO RESOLVE THREE WATERS. THEY WILL NEED TO WORK OUT HOW THE VOCATIONAL EDUCATION SYSTEM CAN WORK BETTER. WE WILL, OVER THE LONG TERM, HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE DO TO CREATE SOMETHING MORE PERMANENT FOR PEOPLE WHEN THEY LOSE THEIR JOBS ` THOSE THINGS AREN'T GOING AWAY, AND I'M PROUD TO HAVE BEEN PART OF A LABOUR GOVERNMENT THAT HAD A GO AT THEM, DIDN'T SUCCEED ON ALL OF THEM, BUT DID A LOT OF OTHER GOOD THINGS IN THE MEANTIME. UPON REFLECTION, DO YOU THINK THERE WAS TOO MUCH OF A FOCUS ON MAINTAINING POLITICAL CAPITAL AT TIMES, AT THE EXPENSE OF PROGRESSING, ENDURING CHANGE? THAT IS A VERY TRICKY BALANCE. YOU DO HAVE TO MAINTAIN POLITICAL CAPITAL, BECAUSE ONE OF THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION YOU'VE JUST ASKED ME IS, WHY DIDN'T WE FINISH THINGS? BECAUSE WE GOT VOTED OUT AFTER SIX YEARS, NOT NINE OR NOT 12. SO YOU'RE ALWAYS TRYING TO BALANCE HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN STAY HERE, AND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN ACHIEVE CHANGE? AND THERE WILL BE` THERE WILL BE OCCASIONS AND PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY, YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS, YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT. I REMAIN PROUD OF WHAT WE DID, BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY UNFINISHED BUSINESS. SO DO YOU THINK YOU STRUCK THAT BALANCE RIGHT? I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, YEAH. THERE WERE TIMES WHEN YOU DIDN'T? OH, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN IT WAS HARD. I MEAN, WELL, PEOPLE KNOW. I MEAN, I PROPOSED THE INCOME INSURANCE SCHEME, YOU KNOW. THERE ARE THINGS THAT I WANTED TO SEE HAPPEN ` THE TAXATION CHANGES. BUT I'M ALSO REALISTIC, JACK, ABOUT THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN AND THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT TO BRING NEW ZEALANDERS WITH US IF WE WANT TO MAKE THESE CHANGES. BEING THE POLITICAL BOFFIN YOU ARE, DO YOU THINK IF YOU'D GONE TO THE ELECTION WITH THOSE TAX CHANGES AS YOU WANTED THEM, THE RESULT WOULD'VE BEEN ANY DIFFERENT? I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK LABOUR WOULD'VE WON. BUT DO YOU THINK IT WOULD'VE BEEN DIFFERENT? IT MIGHT'VE BEEN SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. I DON'T THINK LABOUR WOULD'VE WON. HOW DIFFERENT? JUST EXPLAIN HOW` OH, LOOK, YOU KNOW, MY VIEW IS THAT I THINK HAD WE BEEN ABLE TO GO FORWARD WITH A MORE CONCRETE TAX POLICY ABOUT WHERE WE WERE GOING, THAT WOULD HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE RECEIVE TAX CUTS ON THE BASIS OF OTHERS, PARTICULARLY THE WEALTHIER END` LIKE A WEALTH TAX. ...PAYING MORE, THAT WOULD'VE GIVEN US SOMETHING VERY CONCRETE TO CAMPAIGN ON, BUT LIKE YOU SAY, I'VE BEEN AROUND POLITICS A LONG TIME. I'VE BEEN THROUGH A LOT OF ELECTIONS. MY GUT FEELING IS LABOUR STILL WOULD NOT HAVE WON THE ELECTION. AFTER THE BREAK ` WAS GRANT ROBERTSON'S POLITICAL CAREER ULTIMATELY HELD BACK? WHILE IT WAS RARE FOR HIM TO TALK ABOUT IT IN PUBLIC ALL THAT MUCH, GRANT ROBERTSON IS THE MOST SENIOR OPENLY LGBT POLITICIAN IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY. TWICE YOU FORMALLY STOOD FOR YOUR PARTY'S LEADERSHIP ` 2013 AND 2014. THIS IS A BIT OF A DELICATE QUESTION. (CHUCKLES) DO YOU THINK IF YOU WEREN'T GAY, YOU WOULD'VE BEEN LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY AT SOME POINT? IT'S A REALLY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER. I'M NOT SO WORRIED ABOUT IT BEING DELICATE. I THINK IN 2013, IT WAS AN ISSUE IN THE CAMPAIGN INTERNALLY WITHIN THE LABOUR PARTY. AND I DO THINK IT PROBABLY AFFECTED THAT, ALTHOUGH WHETHER I WOULD'VE BEEN ABLE TO WIN THAT ONE, EVEN WITHOUT THAT, I'M NOT SURE. BY THE TIME WE GOT TO 2014, IT WAS LESS OF AN ISSUE THE SECOND TIME ROUND, BUT IT CONTINUED TO BE THERE. BUT, LOOK, I'M NOT GOING TO DWELL TOO MUCH ON THAT. I THINK NEW ZEALAND'S CHANGED A LOT IN THE DECADE SINCE THEN, WHICH IS GREAT. I STILL THINK THERE'S SOME DISTANCE TO GO FOR US TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN BE WHO THEY WANT TO BE, LIVE THEIR LIVES FREELY, AND BE APPRECIATED FOR WHO THEY ARE IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT IN A POLITICAL SENSE, YEAH, I THINK A LOT'S CHANGED IN THOSE 10 YEARS. DID THAT AFFECT YOU? IT MUST HAVE AFFECTED YOU AFTER THAT TIME. IF YOU FELT THAT THAT WAS LIKE MAYBE A DETERMINING FACTOR. I'M NOT SURE I'D SAY DETERMINING. I'M TRYING TO BE REALLY STRAIGHT... (CHUCKLES) UP WITH YOU, SO TO SPEAK, ON THIS` ZA-ZING. (LAUGHS) ...WHICH IS THAT IT WAS A FACTOR ` I KNOW THAT. BUT I'M NOT SURE IT WAS EVERYTHING. THERE WAS A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON AS WELL. EXCEPT THAT THE MARGINS ` ESPECIALLY IN 2014 ` BY WHICH YOU LOST WERE JUST... ...WERE VERY SMALL INDEED. ...JUST FINGERNAILS, RIGHT? THE DAY AFTER I LOST THAT 2014 LEADERSHIP ELECTION, I REMEMBER SITTING DOWN AND SAYING, 'I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT AGAIN.' AND I ACTUALLY DIDN'T COME TO POLITICS TO BE THE LEADER OF A PARTY. I CAME TO ACHIEVE SOME THINGS IN SOME AREAS, AND I'M GOING TO FOCUS ON DOING THAT. AND THEN I BECAME THE FINANCE SPOKESPERSON, WHICH GAVE ME AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY AND PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO WORK ON THOSE ISSUES. AND I GENUINELY PUT IT OUT OF MY MIND. AND THEN WHEN JACINDA TOOK THE LEADERSHIP IN 2017, I WAS ABLE TO BE THERE AND SUPPORT MY FRIEND IN DOING THAT. THAT WAS ALL ENORMOUSLY FULFILLING. AND SO I'M NOT SITTING HERE THINKING MUCH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2013 OR 2014. WHEN JACINDA ARDERN ANNOUNCED SHE WAS GOING TO STAND DOWN... COME ON, YOU MUST HAVE CONSIDERED IT. OH, FOR SURE ` ABSOLUTELY. AND SO WHAT WAS THE DETERMINING FACTOR? DID YOU POLL IT? NO, NO. WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THE PARTY DID, BUT I CERTAINLY DIDN'T. YOU DON'T KNOW IF THE PARTY DID? I DON'T THINK THEY DID. THEY DIDN'T HAVE TIME. (CHUCKLES) LOOK, JACINDA` AS IS ON THE RECORD, JACINDA AND I HAD BEEN TALKING TOWARDS THE END OF 2022 ABOUT WHAT SHE WANTED TO DO. AND SO CLEARLY, I ALSO WENT AWAY OVER THE SUMMER TO HAVE A THINK ABOUT WHAT I WANTED TO DO. AND I'D BEEN UP CLOSE TO THAT JOB, AND I KNEW EXACTLY WHAT IT TOOK TO DO IT, AND I KNEW THAT I DIDN'T HAVE THAT. I WANTED TO CONTRIBUTE STILL, BUT I KNEW WHAT THAT JOB MEANT FOR ME, FOR MY FAMILY, FOR THE COMMITMENT THAT WAS REQUIRED. AND I KNEW I DIDN'T HAVE IT, AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE DISHONEST TO CHASE A JOB THAT I KNEW I COULDN'T GIVE THE 110%, 120% THAT WAS REQUIRED. AND I WAS ALSO CONFIDENT IN CHRIS HIPKINS' ABILITY TO DO THE JOB. SO I WENT THROUGH ALL OF THAT, AND, OF COURSE, I THOUGHT ABOUT IT. BUT IN THE END, YOU KNOW, I FELT THE RIGHT DECISION FOR ME, FOR MY FAMILY, FOR THE PARTY, WAS NOT TO PUT MYSELF UP. WE HOSTED THREE WOMEN'S WORLD CUPS UNDER YOUR WATCH ` THE RUGBY, CRICKET AND FOOTBALL WORLD CUPS ` CODES IN WHICH THE MEN'S GAME HAS TRADITIONALLY DOMINATED. WAS THERE PUSHBACK THAT WE DIDN'T SEE FROM THOSE WHO FELT THAT HOSTING WOMEN'S EVENTS WASN'T REALLY WORTH IT? WE'VE NEVER HAD A WOMEN AND GIRLS IN SPORTS STRATEGY UNTIL WE BECAME GOVERNMENT AND I BECAME MINISTER, AND THERE WAS PUSHBACK FROM SOME WITHIN THE COMMUNITY ABOUT ALL THE ELEMENTS OF THAT STRATEGY ` HOSTING THE BIG EVENTS WAS ONE OF THEM. BUT ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS WE DID WAS ASK ALL NATIONAL SPORTING ORGANISATIONS TO HAVE AT LEAST 40% WOMEN ON THEIR BOARDS. THERE WAS DEFINITELY PUSHBACK ON THAT, AND I FELT REALLY` FROM WHICH CODES? I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHICH ONES, BUT I FELT REALLY VINDICATED WHEN I WAS AT AN EVENT LAST YEAR IN A FAIRLY TRADITIONAL CODE, AND ONE OF THE BOARD MEMBERS CAME TO ME AND SAID, 'WE MAKE BETTER DECISIONS NOW 'BECAUSE WE'VE GOT THAT DIVERSITY ON OUR BOARD.' AND WE DID LINK IT TO FUNDING, AND THERE WAS ONE ` RUGBY ` WHO DIDN'T QUITE MAKE IT, BUT THEY HAVE NOW, AND I'M REALLY PROUD OF ALL OF THAT. THOSE EVENTS, THOSE PINNACLE EVENTS, WERE INCREDIBLE, BUT THE STUFF THAT ACTUALLY GIVES ME THE MOST PLEASURE IS WHEN I SEE THE PLAYER NUMBERS THAT HAVE INCREASED IN GIRLS' CRICKET AND WOMEN'S FOOTBALL AND WOMEN'S RUGBY, AND I... I LOVE SPORT. IT'S SUCH A GREAT WAY OF BRINGING OUR COMMUNITIES TOGETHER, AND I ALWAYS FELT UNCOMFORTABLE IF WE WERE SORT OF EXCLUDING HALF THE COMMUNITY FROM THAT AMAZING OPPORTUNITY. AND I THINK WE'VE DONE AMAZING THINGS. MORE TO DO, BUT I'M REALLY, REALLY PROUD OF THAT WORK. WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME THE FINANCE SPOKESPERSON, YOU THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THE FUTURE OF WORK. SOCIAL INSURANCE IS PERHAPS A MATERIAL POLICY THAT EVOLVED FROM SOME OF THAT THINKING. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT AI IS GOING TO DISRUPT THE FUTURE OF WORK IN NEW ZEALAND? IT'S HUGE. AND EVERY INDUSTRY, INCLUDING THE ONE I'M GOING TO IN TERMS OF UNIVERSITIES, HAS TO BE CLEAR-EYED ABOUT WHERE AI FITS. WE CAN'T STOP IT. THERE'S NO ONE` THERE'S NO WAY OF SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO ENGAGE WITH IT. WE HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH IT AS A COUNTRY AND, AS IN MY CASE, IN THE UNIVERSITIES. I THINK THE BEAUTY OF THAT FUTURE OF WORK PROJECT WAS THE THING THAT I HEARD TIME AND TIME AGAIN FROM CEOS AND OTHERS WAS THE TECHNICAL KNOWLEDGE WASN'T SO MUCH WHAT THEY CARED ABOUT. WHAT THEY CARED ABOUT WERE THE SKILLS THAT THE PEOPLE BROUGHT, THE SO-CALLED SOFT SKILLS, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU GOOD AT ANALYSING PROBLEMS? ARE YOU RESILIENT? HOW DO YOU WORK WITH OTHERS? CAN YOU SEE SOMETHING OUT ` A CREATIVE SOLUTION? I WANT TO LOOK AT AI IN THAT WAY AND SAY, WELL, IT'S HERE. WE HAVE TO OBVIOUSLY PUT REGULATION AROUND IT, DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO, BUT LET'S FOCUS ON HOW WE CREATE THE GREAT HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO USE AI FOR GOOD. WHAT MORE WOULD YOU HAVE DONE ON WELL-BEING? HUH. SOME OF IT'S QUITE TECHNICAL, BUT... GIVE US THE BROAD THEMES. LAUGHS: YEAH. I'D LIKE TO SEE GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS WORK TOGETHER A LOT MORE ON THE BIG, MESSY, COMPLEX PROBLEMS THE WORLD'S FACING, YOU KNOW, CLIMATE CHANGE, CHILD POVERTY, HOUSING. WE STARTED THAT WORK. BUT STUFF'S STILL PRETTY SILOED. IT IS ` VERY. AND, YOU KNOW... BUT WHERE WE HAVE BROUGHT PEOPLE TOGETHER, WE'VE SEEN GREAT OUTCOMES. WE NOW FUND ALL OF OUR JUSTICE AGENCIES ` YOU KNOW, POLICE, THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE, COURTS, CORRECTIONS ` ON A THREE-YEAR ROLLING BASIS WITH ONE SET OF PRIORITIES. AND IT WAS AN AMAZING THING TO BE PART OF. YOU KNOW, TO HEAR THE POLICE GO, 'WE DON'T WANT THAT FUNDING. 'WE'D RATHER IT WENT HERE TO PREVENT SOMEONE ENDING UP IN FRONT OF US.' NEW ZEALANDERS DON'T CARE WHICH AGENCIES ARE PROVIDING THE SERVICES THAT THEY GET. THEY JUST WANT THEM PROVIDED. AND THAT BREAKING DOWN OF THE SILO ON THE BASIS OF WHAT ARE THE KEY THINGS IN OUR WELL-BEING, WE MADE SOME REALLY POSITIVE STARTS, BUT THAT WAS A COVID INTERRUPTUS MOMENT FOR US. AND I REALLY HOPE, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT MIGHT BE ASSOCIATED WITH ME OR WITH LABOUR, THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY DOES CARRY THAT ON. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE GAS TO TAKE ON THE PM JOB, BUT YOU DO HAVE THE GAS TO BE THE VICE-CHANCELLOR OF A MAJOR UNIVERSITY. WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET THE TERTIARY SECTOR IN NEW ZEALAND SORTED? BETTER COLLABORATION. WE'RE A SMALL COUNTRY. WE'VE GOT FANTASTIC UNIVERSITIES, ACTUALLY, AND WE ACTUALLY, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, RANK QUITE HIGHLY IN THE WORLD IN THEM. BUT THAT SMALL COUNTRY NEEDS TO SEE THOSE UNIVERSITIES BUILD ON THEIR STRENGTHS AND WORK TOGETHER MORE, AND THEN TAKE THAT OUT TO THE WORLD AS WELL. SECONDLY, I THINK WE'VE GOT TO REALLY VALUE TERTIARY EDUCATION AND THE STAFF WHO WORK WITHIN IT. WE'VE GOT EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE, JACK. I KNOW YOU DO INTERVIEWS AROUND THE COUNTRY ` THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE BUSINESS SECTOR AND OUR TERTIARY SECTOR NEEDS TO IMPROVE. BUT THE AMAZING WORK THAT'S DONE BY OUR RESEARCHERS AND OUR TEACHERS AND OUR UNIVERSITY NEEDS TO BE HIGHLIGHTED. I'VE GOT A BIG JOB TO DO AT OTAGO. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE STRESSES ACROSS THE UNIVERSITY SECTOR FINANCIALLY, BUT THERE'S SO MUCH OPPORTUNITY, AND I THINK IF WE CAN ACTUALLY GET A MORE COLLABORATIVE SECTOR GOING, WE'LL GO A LONG WAY TO HARNESSING THAT OPPORTUNITY. OUTSIDE OF YOUR CAUCUS, WHO IS THE BEST DEBATER IN THE HOUSE? OUTSIDE OF THE LABOUR CAUCUS? JAMES SHAW. HOW'S IT GOING TO FEEL STANDING UP THERE FOR THE LAST TIME? ARE YOU A SENTIMENTAL KIND OF GUY? I THINK I'M GOING TO CRY. (LAUGHS) REALLY? YEAH, I DO. I'VE BEEN DRAFTING UP MY VALEDICTORY SPEECH, AND THERE'S BITS OF IT THAT I THINK ARE GOING TO BE... INTERESTING TO DELIVER. I'VE BEEN IN AND AROUND THIS BUILDING FOR TWO DECADES. I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE POLITICAL WORLD FOR A LONG TIME. I CARE ABOUT WHAT WE DO HERE, AND I'M READY TO GO. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T MAKE ME EMOTIONAL THINKING ABOUT LEAVING. WHAT BITS ARE GOING TO MAKE YOU CRY? AH, YOU'LL HAVE TO WATCH THE SPEECH, JACK. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOOD LUCK. CHEERS. GRANT ROBERTSON. AFTER THE INTERVIEW, WE TOOK A FEW MINUTES, AND HE SHOWED ME ONE OF HIS FAVOURITE SPOTS IN PARLIAMENT. THE RAINBOW ROOM CELEBRATES CONTRIBUTIONS OF LGBT MPs FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AND THE PROGRESS THAT HAS BEEN MADE FROM HOMOSEXUAL LAW REFORM THROUGH TO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE. YOU CAN SEE THAT EXCHANGE ON OUR YOUTUBE PAGE. AFTER THE BREAK ` IT'S NOT OFTEN YOU GET AN EYE ROLL ROM THE HEAD OF A U.N. AGENCY ` FIND OUT WHY IN A MOMENT. WOMEN AND GIRLS' HEALTH AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ARE ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL TO THE PROGRESS OF HUMANITY ` THAT'S THE VIEW OF THE UNFPA, THE UNITED NATIONS POPULATION FUND, WHICH WORKS TO END THINGS LIKE GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AND FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION, WHILE IMPROVING MATERNAL AND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH. THE HEAD OF THE UNFPA WAS BRIEFLY IN NEW ZEALAND THIS WEEK. I ASKED DR NATALIA KANEM TO ASSESS PROGRESS FOR WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD. THIS IS A MOMENTOUS YEAR ` 30 YEARS FROM A BIG MEETING IN CAIRO, THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT, WHERE MEMBER STATES OF THE UNITED NATIONS ALL DECLARED THAT PUTTING WOMEN AND GIRLS AT THE CENTRE OF DEVELOPMENT WAS A GOOD IDEA. AND IN FACT, IN THOSE 30 YEARS, WE'VE SEEN HUGE PROGRESS, AND WE WANT TO CLAIM THE JOY AND HAPPINESS FOR FAMILIES THAT FEWER WOMEN ARE DYING DURING CHILDBIRTH, FOR EXAMPLE. AND THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE INTERIM. YET AND STILL, IT'S 2024, AND WE FIND OURSELVES IN A PLACE WHERE WE HAVE TO DEFEND THE RIGHTS AND CHOICES THAT WOMEN AND GIRLS AND EVERYONE ACTUALLY WOULD MAKE ABOUT THEIR REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING. WHERE ARE YOUR MOST PROMINENT CONCERNS, IN TERMS OF REGIONS AROUND THE WORLD? YOU KNOW, IT'S AN EXCITING TIME, JACK, BECAUSE, LIKE, RIGHT NOW, THE WORLD IS AT A JUNCTURE WHERE IF YOU ARE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE PEACE IN YOUR COUNTRY AND IN YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, YOU'RE MAKING GIANT LEAPS AHEAD. I MEAN, THINK ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND TELEMEDICINE. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN TRAIN A MIDWIFE TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER A BABY, TO BE ABLE TO GIVE COUNSELLING OVER THE PHONE, OVER A TABLET. PARENTHESIS ` THERE ARE ALSO DANGERS OF MISUSE OF TECHNOLOGY. AND WHAT WORRIES ME A LOT IS THAT WHILE WE'VE MADE HUMAN PROGRESS IN MEDICINE, AND BEING A DOCTOR MYSELF, VERY PROUD OF SOME OF THE NEW INTERVENTIONS WE CAN MAKE, WE'RE TAKING SOME STEPS BACKWARDS, IN TERMS OF ESPECIALLY GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE, VIOLENCE IN THE HOME AND, OF COURSE, THE BIG PEACE ` WAR AND PEACE. WHAT ARE THE MOST PRESCIENT ISSUES FACING WOMEN IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD? AND BY THAT, I MEAN IN THE PACIFIC REGION BROADLY. WELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT A BEAUTIFUL REGION! AND REALLY PROUD TO BE IN NEW ZEALAND, AS WE CELEBRATE THIS 30TH ANNIVERSARY, BECAUSE THERE'S A HARMONY TO YOUR REGION THAT I ACTUALLY ADMIRE. AND I THINK NEW ZEALAND AND THE PACIFIC NATIONS, THE COHERENCE THAT YOU HAVE, THE WAY THAT YOU WORK IN CONCERT, THAT'S REALLY GOOD FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS; IT'S GOOD FOR BOYS AND MEN AND FOR EVERYONE AS WELL. I WORRY A LOT ABOUT TWO THINGS ` ONE IS THE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS ON HEALTH. WE'RE SEEING SOME BACKTRACKING, WHERE I WOULD WISH WE WOULD BE MOVING FORWARD. ONE PRIDE THAT THE REGION CAN HAVE IS THAT MANY MORE WOMEN AND ADOLESCENTS, IF PREGNANT, ARE DELIVERING IN FACILITIES, RATHER THAN STRUGGLING AT HOME, GOING THROUGH LABOUR WITH DIRE CONSEQUENCES. SO THAT'S REALLY GOOD, COS YOU'VE GOT THOSE CHALLENGES OF BEING ABLE TO TRANSPORT PEOPLE SAFELY. ONE THING THAT I ALSO EMPHASISE IS THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THIS REGION ARE LOOKING AHEAD. THEY'RE LOOKING TO A FUTURE OF SELF-SUFFICIENCY, OF BEING ABLE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO WORK TOGETHER. AND THIS POINT ABOUT RESPECT FOR PEOPLE AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE IS CRUCIAL FOR THE REGION, IT'S CRUCIAL FOR THE WORLD. BUT I THINK WE DO SEE SOME HIGH RATES OF VIOLENCE IN THE HOME, AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUNG MEN, SPORTS GUYS, WHOEVER ` YOUR PARLIAMENTARIANS, WHO ARE WELL AWARE OF THESE ISSUES, THAT MEN SPEAK UP TO SAY RESPECT WOMEN AND GIRLS, LET'S PUT AN END TO VIOLENCE, AND LET'S BRING PEACE INTO THE HOME, IN THE COMMUNITIES AND INTO OUR COUNTRIES. RELIGION PLAYS A REALLY, REALLY SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN MANY PACIFIC COUNTRIES. HOW DO LEADERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES AND THOSE COMMUNITIES, FEEL ABOUT EFFORTS TO IMPROVE ACCESS TO THINGS LIKE CONTRACEPTIVES? WELL, YOU KNOW. PART OF THE BEAUTY OF BEING IN A FAMILY, A BIOLOGICAL FAMILY, BUT ALSO A FAMILY OF NATIONS, IS THAT RELIGION IS AN EXPRESSION OF YOUR IDENTITY, OF WHO YOU ARE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE HOLD VERY CLOSE TO THEIR HEARTS. AND THE BEAUTIFUL THING ABOUT RELIGION IS IT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER TO LOOK FOR SOLUTIONS. SO WHETHER IT'S A QUESTION OF CONTRACEPTION, A WOMAN IS GOING TO LOOK FOR GUIDANCE FROM HER RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY. AND HERE UNFPA WORKS VERY HARD, IN CONCERT WITH MANY OF THE RELIGIOUS GROUPS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, TO GIVE A GOOD EXPLANATION OF WHY IT'S PROTECTIVE, IF A WOMAN CAN CHOOSE HOW TO SPACE HER CHILDREN, WHEN TO TIME HER CHILDREN. AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOUR REPRODUCTIVE YEARS, WHEN YOU'RE MAKING A FAMILY, ARE THE SAME AS YOUR PRODUCTIVE YEARS ` WHEN YOU'RE OUT THERE WORKING, IN THE WORKPLACE, IN YOUR FARM; WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING. SO, AGAIN, THIS IS LIFE-SAVING INFORMATION. IT'S ALSO AN EXPRESSION OF CARING, TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE WHAT'S RIGHT FOR THEM, AND THEIR FAITH IS A BIG PART OF THAT. BUT HOW IS THAT MESSAGE RECEIVED IN THE PACIFIC? WELL, YOU HAVE A LOT OF VARIABILITY IN THE COUNTRIES OF THE PACIFIC, AND I WOULD NOT DARE TO SAY THAT THERE'S UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT ON A LOT OF THE ISSUES ON REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND REPRODUCTIVE JUSTICE. SO UNFPA, WORKING WITH THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE PACIFIC, THE LEADERSHIP UP TO AND INCLUDING BUSINESSES ` YOU KNOW, WHOEVER IT IS THAT WE CAN ALLY WITH, WE HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF HAVING BEEN IN THE REGION FOR QUITE A WHILE AND WORKING CLOSELY, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE FAMILY PLANNING ASSOCIATIONS, INCLUDING SEXUAL HEALTH AND WELLBEING, AOTEAROA HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. SO WE TAILOR OUR PROGRAMMES PRETTY CAREFULLY, IN CONCERT WITH PEOPLE ON THE GROUND WHO KNOW WHAT ARE THE BIG ISSUES AND WHERE DO WE FOCUS. WE FOCUS, FOR EXAMPLE, ON HELPING TEEN GIRLS NOT TO BECOME PREGNANT, BECAUSE WE HAVE A WHOLE WEALTH OF EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS IF WE HELP TO PROTECT HER, IF WE CAN INSPIRE HER TO FINISH HER EDUCATION, IT'S GOING TO BE BETTER FOR HER AS AN INDIVIDUAL, BUT ALSO FOR THE ENTIRE FAMILY AND THEIR ECONOMIC BENEFITS. BUT THERE ARE ALSO BENEFITS FOR HER TO BE ABLE TO SHOW HER LEADERSHIP, SO GIVING YOUNG PEOPLE THE RESPECT THAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR AND ENTRUSTING THEM WITH INFORMATION, NOT LEAVING THEM BEING IGNORANT, RIGHT, BUT ALSO BEING SURE THAT WE WORK IN AGE-APPROPRIATE WAYS THAT GUIDES. AND AGAIN, THIS IS FOR THE GUYS AS MUCH AS FOR THE GIRLS, RIGHT? IT TAKES TWO. SO WE WANT TO BE SURE THAT WE EXPLAIN, AT THE RIGHT TIME, HOW FAMILY LIFE EDUCATION IS GOING TO REALLY HELP TO MAKE STRONGER COMMUNITIES. YOU'VE BEEN MEETING WITH THE MINISTERS OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT IN NEW ZEALAND ` WHAT WAS YOUR MESSAGE TO THOSE MINISTERS? WELL, I'M HERE FOR A PERIOD, AND I HAVE ALREADY MET WITH ACTING MINISTER OF WOMEN'S AFFAIRS, AND I'LL BE MEETING WITH THE MINISTER OF HEALTH. VERY EXCITED TO BE IN NEW ZEALAND ` YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A BIG PARTNER OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE WORLD STAGE, AND OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF YOUR SUCCESS, THE WAY YOU'VE MANAGED SOME HEALTH CRISES UP TO AND INCLUDING COVID, HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD. MY MESSAGE IS A BIG MESSAGE OF THANK YOU TO THE GOVERNMENT AND TO THE PEOPLE OF NEW ZEALAND, WHO EXPRESS INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY IN REALLY PRACTICAL WAYS, LIKE CONTRIBUTING TO THE LOGISTICS OF GETTING CONTRACEPTIVE SUPPLIES ACROSS THE BROAD PACIFIC REGION ` YOU NEED TO PLAN, YOU NEED TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ENTHUSIASTIC, BUT ALSO KNOW THE DETAILS, SO THAT WHEN THE MEDICINES ARRIVE, THEY'RE CURRENT ` THEY'RE NOT GOING TO EXPIRE; WE'VE GOT THE TRANSPORT CHAIN. SO THESE ARE SOME OF THE DETAILS THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FROM WISHING THAT THINGS ARE BETTER TO ACTUALLY CONCRETELY WORKING TOGETHER TO IMPROVE LIVES, ESPECIALLY FOR SOME OF THE ISLAND COMMUNITIES. YOU KNOW, THE LOGISTICS IS A CHALLENGE, AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE NEW ZEALAND'S INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY. I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP. SORRY. WHEN HE WAS IN OFFICE, HIS ADMINISTRATION SUSPENDED FUNDING, CLAIMING THE UNFPA SUPPORTED, 'A PROGRAMME OF COERCIVE ABORTION OR INVOLUNTARY STERILISATION.' OBVIOUSLY, YOUR AGENCY STRENUOUSLY DENIED THOSE ALLEGATIONS, BUT HAVE YOU MADE CONTINGENCY PLANS, IN CASE MR TRUMP BECOMES PRESIDENT AGAIN? WELL, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID EARLIER, WE WORK WITH OUR MEMBER STATES UNDER THEIR GUIDANCE. AND IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER TO THE UNITED NATIONS WHO IS IN POWER IN A PARTICULAR ADMINISTRATION. HOWEVER, YOU HAVE CORRECTLY OBSERVED THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS A HUGE FUNDER AND SUPPORTER AND ACTUALLY AN ORIGINATOR OF UNFPA, WE'RE 54 YEARS OLD NOW, THE REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS TEND TO RESTRICT FUNDING, SPECIFICALLY TARGETING UNFPA, BECAUSE OF OUR INSISTENCE THAT REALLY AS PART OF HUMAN RIGHTS, YOUR SEXUAL WELL-BEING, YOUR ABILITY TO CHOOSE IS FUNDAMENTAL ` WE HAVE EVERY EVIDENCE IN THE WORLD TO PROVE THAT POINT. BUT AGAIN, IT'S AN ISSUE OF DIALOGUE. FOR ME, SPEAKING PERSONALLY, IT'S LAMENTABLE WHEN THE USA WITHDRAWS FUNDING TO HELP PRESERVE LIFE. MATERNAL MORTALITY IS SUCH A BIG ISSUE IN THE WORLD, AND PART OF THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT SEXUAL AND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND RIGHTS ARE NOT UNIVERSAL. NEW ZEALAND HAS AN ADVANTAGE, WHERE WE'VE STUDIED YOUR MATERNITY PROGRAMMES ` THAT'S BUILT IN, YOU KNOW, YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT AN ISSUE WHEN YOU'RE PREGNANT. I'M SO SORRY TO TELL YOU THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRIES IN AFRICA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE A LOT OF MATERNAL DEATH OCCURS; IN AFGHANISTAN, IN MYANMAR, THESE ARE HUGE CHALLENGES. SO ALWAYS, AS A DOCTOR MYSELF, I'M QUICK TO POINT OUT THAT WE CAN'T WISH THE WORLD TO BE A CERTAIN WAY ` WE HAVE TO PROCEED ON SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE; WE HAVE TO PROCEED ON THE KNOWLEDGE THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE THAT'S BEEN HARD WON OVER TIME, AND UNFPA WILL NEVER BACK AWAY FROM THE PROPOSITION THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT, WOMEN ARE REALLY SMART; THEY HAVE RIGHTS, AND THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXPRESS THOSE RIGHTS IN EVERY WAY THAT THEY SEE FIT. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH NZ Q+A, AND WE'LL POP RIGHT UP. HEI AKUANEI. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9am. 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