Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2024 - Tonight on Sunday ` it could be you, it could be me, anyone is vulnerable ` why New Zealand is a scammer's paradise. - I said, 'Look, is this really for real?' And they said, 'Absolutely. You have been scammed.' - Loss, devastation, guilt, panic, all of those things. - Are they exploiting vulnerable people... - Absolute cretin. - They're not going to stop. They'll do every trick under the sun. - ...or vulnerable banks? - I didn't know about this scam, the bank did. What did they do to protect me? - You're talking about really, really sophisticated criminals here. There's no silver bullet to this. - And it's perhaps the ultimate experiment ` find a cure for death. - It's scary, and if we're successful even in part, you make history. - The guinea pigs are willing... - There's always a risk, but the alternative is eternal blackness. - ...but is this frozen future more of a farce? - I remain to be convinced that it's anything other than an extreme expression of wishful thinking. - Kia ora, I'm Miriama Kamo. Strong, trustworthy and secure ` that's what we expect from our banks So why are ordinary Kiwis losing hundreds of millions each year to increasingly sophisticated scams? We're told to be careful online, and the people you're about to meet believed they were, yet they were swindled out of their life savings. So who's protecting us? Are banks really doing everything they can to keep our money secure? Here's Conor Whitten. - I said, 'Look, is this really for real?' And they said, 'Absolutely, there's no question in our minds that you have been scammed. - How much money had you invested? - Uh, I invested $400,000. - This is bank-enabled scams. It's their systems that have made this happen. - Will you commit to refunding people who suffer that kind of fraud? Meet two very different Kiwis ` Tim Michalik on his lifestyle block in Kerikeri, Beth Pottinger-Hockings by the New Plymouth coast. The two have never met, but they share much in common. How much money were you looking to invest? - 1000 grand. 100,000's what I had, and that was about a third of my retirement. - We were looking for something that was really safe, you know, a lower-risk investment fund. - The money was mine and my husband's; it wasn't just kind of mine ` and I lost my husband four years ago. EMOTIONALLY: The thing that I miss most about him is his sense of humour. He was a bit like the life and soul of the party. He was very funny. - Yeah, we look back on it as a really fantastic time of our lives. - Tim spent two decades earning his nest egg, travelling the world as a superyacht captain. It's not an easy life, is it? - No, you work very hard. You, um... You're on the boat 365 days of the year sometimes. You primarily do it to better the lives of yourself and your family. - Two separate paths with one common goal. - I was kinda running scared in terms of putting money into funds because I didn't wanna lose it ` that's the 'ironical' piece. - We were fortunate to have put some aside and saved really hard over the years, and unfortunately, we knew more about boats than we did about investing our money safely, yeah. - They both did their homework, shopping for options on sites that compare the best interest rates. - I was just doing some online stuff with regards to looking for investments ` what are good investments and so on. I actually did a search for 'best interest rates in New Zealand' or something to that effect, and I clicked that link. That was the start of it. - I left my e-mail and my phone number and my name, completely forgot about it, and a day later, I had a call from what I thought was a person at HSBC New Zealand. - So within a few days, someone did contact me, a very well-spoken English man who seemed to be very knowledgeable about what was going on. - Tim had a different caller, but the MO was the same. - He spent the first few phone calls just building up a relationship, explaining... um, what sort of services HSBC was offering. He was a well-polished British accent, but he explained to me in great detail how he'd received his job with HSBC in New Zealand. - I remember at one point in time, I even said to him, 'How do I know you're not a scammer?' He just said, 'Go and check me out, go and do your due diligence.' I already had, found he was a staff member, you know, at Citibank. He had a LinkedIn profile, you know, all those sorts of things. - Tim and Beth's so-called brokers had all the documents to back their pitches ` emails and forms on official letterhead, many with signatures and names which matched those of real bank staff. Did you talk to your bank about it? - Yeah, I did. I have a personal banking manager at ASB, and I asked him how safe it was to invest with HSBC New Zealand, and he said, 'It'd be fine if you check their credit rating. 'Go away and check their credit rating,' which I did. - Everything seemed to add up. It was time to invest. - I rang my bank to make sure that I had the capacity to do a transfer of a 100,000 all in one go. - Beth transferred her money from her ANZ account to a new account she'd been told was set up in her name. They even sent her a login so she could check on her investment. - So that I could actually see where it was. Sure enough, within a day or so, that had been set up, and so I could see that the money was in a portal in Citibank. - Tim transferred his funds too. It all looked seamless Until a week later, he and his wife decided to call HSBC ` that was the moment it all fell apart. What did HSBC tell you? - They told me that the alias that I was enquiring about was a known... alias and that they were aware of scammers using that alias to impersonate themselves. - How did that feel? - I could describe it as your whole world coming crashing down. - What was the moment you realised you'd been scammed? - When the bank rang me. - What did they say? - EMOTIONALLY: I was at... my step-son's cremation, so I missed the call. - Just weeks beforehand, tragedy had struck. A fire at Loafer's Lodge in Wellington ` five people killed, 20 injured. Beth's step-son, Liam, was one of the dead. - These were his last` some of his last Facebook posts only hours before he died. READS: 'I grew up with Steve Jobs, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope. 'Now there's no jobs, no cash and no hope. 'Please don't let anything happen to Kevin Bacon.' (BOTH LAUGH) - He obviously had a sense of humour. - He had a sense of humour He was kind, and he was definitely, you know, a... a part of the family who was very... very loved. - So you had this unbearable tragedy and then this huge financial loss... it must have felt like blow after blow. - SOBS: Yeah, it kinda did. - The bank confirmed Beth's worst fears. - I said, 'Look, is this really for real?' And they said, 'Absolutely, there's no question in our minds that you have been scammed.' And then they said, 'And we can't recover it.' - ASB told Tim his money was gone too. How much money had you invested? - Uh, I invested $400,000. It's a feeling of complete and utter loss, devastation, um... guilt, um... panic, all of those things. Worst day of my life. It's been the worst year of my life since then. - Coming up ` Why has New Zealand become a target for these scammers? - It's because our banks have soft security. We're becoming the low-hanging fruit, the lolly shop for the crooks. - Do you think your bank should have stopped this? - Yes. Yes, I do. - The buck stops where? Aotearoa's biggest bank fronts up. Will you commit to refunding people who suffer that kind of fraud? (DRAMATIC MUSIC) - New Zealand banks are among our richest companies, making billions every year. - They're very, very profitable, and they live in a low-regulation environment. - Former fund manager Janine Starks lives between England and Aotearoa. She claims the difference between them on banking security is like night and day. - And I could see just how outdated and how far behind we were, and that made me really angry, and it also made me really frightened when I did my own banking here. We're becoming the low-hanging fruit, the lolly shop for the crooks, and they're targeting us much more than other countries. - Scams are proliferating, and they're harder to spot. - In the old days, you'd think somebody with a strange accent would call you from an overseas number, want you to put money in an overseas account. They'd have some forms with some dodgy logos that'd be a bit fuzzy and loads of spelling mistakes. That's not how it works anymore. Now they can mirror-image that investment process, every step of it, so slickly. (PHONE LINE RINGS) - And this is how it starts. - PHONE: Good morning. You're through to Hillier Finance. - Hi, it's Janine Starks speaking. Can I speak to Adam, Adam Godfrey? - Oh, hello there, Mrs Starks. Thank you for calling back. You're through to Adam. - Hillier Finance is a real company, but they don't sell investments directly to clients ` and Adam Godfrey is an actual banker, but this isn't him. - We're a fully licensed regulated FMA brokerage. - Right. - Also, you've got as well is the $100,000 coverage, so you basically can't lose any money. - That $100,000 guarantee is a lie. - And also just adds that level of security so you know that, obviously, the funds are fully protected, which is important. - OK, Adam, thanks for that. - No problem, my pleasure. Take care. Speak soon. All the best. - Bye. - Bye-bye. (HANGS UP) - Absolute cretin. There was some false information in it, but if that was my mum on the phone or most of the people I know, they wouldn't spot the false information. - Once they've got you on the hook, its all about getting the money, but is it you or the banks the criminals are after? - When you're a criminal, what are you targeting? You're targeting the cash, and you need that money to be paid. You need for there to be a hole in the banking system, a flaw, that you can convince somebody to walk through. - The bank flaw, she says, is the lack of a technology here called 'confirmation of payee'. - So, overseas, when you put in a name and a number, the system goes and sets off an alarm and says. 'That doesn't match. You can't do that.' In New Zealand, it will process the payment no matter what you put in the box. - Here, the name of the person you're paying is never checked against the account number. It could belong to anyone. - If you type in on the bill payment system who it's going to, you believe that got checked, but it doesn't, and that's the biggest open door for criminals in New Zealand. That's one of the fundamental things they design scams around. - And once they've convinced you to make a payment, the scammers also need boots on the ground ` Kiwis to help them move the money offshore. - That's how these criminals get the money into their own accounts ` they tell you you're paying someone like Citibank or HSBC, and you're not; you're paying Mickey Mouse, the money mule from somewhere, and that person is getting paid by an offshore crime gang. - This is New Zealanders who are receiving New Zealanders' money. They're keeping a large portion of it for themselves, and they're sending the rest overseas to, uh... to international scamming conglomerates. - What do you think of that? - Uh, it makes me sick. - You'll remember Tim Michalik, who lost $400,000. The alleged money mule who received his funds is going on trial in two months' time. - I would love to close this whole chapter of my life tomorrow if I could. Getting the money back is a part of it, and stopping this for future victims is the bigger picture for me. - Tim believes he'd still have his money if he'd had better protection from his bank. - Well, if I could have matched up... the account that I thought I was paying into with the account that I was actually paying into, I would have seen that they were completely different. So there's absolutely no way I would have made that payment. - Do you think your bank should have stopped this? - Yes. Yes, I do. - Allegations Tim and Beth's banks, ASB and ANZ, won't answer directly, because the alleged mules are before the courts. - My faith in the banking system's been completely shattered, and the way that they have dealt with me as not just a customer, but the victim of a real serious crime, uh, has been (SCOFFS)... appallingly bad. - Beth Pottinger-Hockings thought she'd put her money in a Citibank account a broker had set up in her name, but the account wasn't hers, and she lost $100,000. - You used to write a cheque out and cross it and present it to the bank. There is no way it could go into any other account other than that person that was named on there ` and if they didn't match, you'd be told. I've spoken to now dozens of people who look at me... with horror that this isn't done. - It's hard to fight against the banks; the banks have very deep pockets, and most of these victims have no money because they've lost all their money to these scammers. - Scott Russell is a commercial lawyer considering a class action on behalf of scam victims. - The only way that we can really get the banks to do the right thing is by either public pressure, government pressure or this legal pressure through a class action. - Government pressure in the UK prompted new regulation, forcing banks to refund victims like Tim and Beth, but in New Zealand it's a different story. - They said, 'It's gone. You will not get this back.' - So-called 'authorised fraud', where the victim makes a payment willingly, doesn't have to be paid back by New Zealand banks. - The UK have, since 2020, have been required to have confirmation of payee. They've also got a reimbursement scheme that requires banks to reimburse up to $1 million for all fraud victims. - Right now, Tim and Beth have nowhere to turn. Tim did get back about half his money recovered from his mule's Kiwibank account. He complained his bank, seeking the rest. ASB told him they weren't liable, but they suggested a resolution. - ASB offered me $2000. - Sorry, so you're still out of pocket nearly $200,000... - Correct. - ...and ASB offered you 2000? - $200,000, yep. - My question of them is ` what did they do to protect me? What did they actually do? They knew about the scam. I think it's appalling. Honestly, I think that the banks have got a lot... to answer for, I really do. - Beth and Tim complained to the Banking Ombudsman about red flags they believe their banks missed. Their appeals were denied. They won't see a cent. So where is the technology they say could've saved them? ASB and the Banking Association wouldn't front for this story, but ANZ CEO Antonia Watson did. So is New Zealand bank security up to world standards? - Absolutely. I mean, every country does something slightly different. But, you know, it's an arms race, and we're constantly investing to keep ahead of technology. - Technology like confirmation of payee, first announced in the UK in 2018. How much profit has ANZ made since 2018? - I'm sure you've added it up, and you can tell me. - Yeah, its $11.5 billion. Couldn't ANZ afford to make these changes sooner? - We can` We can afford to make the changes, and we are. We're spending tens of millions of dollars on this sort of stuff. Confirmation of payee is something that we're working on, but that's not a silver bullet either. - The Ombudsman says confirmation of payee would be, quote, a 'game-changer'. - It is not a game-changer. It's not a silver bullet. It is a` - So you disagree with the Banking Ombudsman? - That it's a game-changer? Absolutely. There is no game-changer. - Last month, the Commerce Minister wrote to the banks, telling them to take 'immediate' action to roll out a 'confirmation of payee' system by the end of this year. Is that what it takes ` the threat of regulation? - No, we announced that last September, so it was before the before that the minister's letter to the banks. - But they've given you a deadline by the end of the year ` will you meet that? - We have committed to start rolling it out by the end of the year. - The government's also asked the banks to set up a voluntary scheme to reimburse victims of authorised fraud. That scheme is going to be voluntary, so will you commit to refunding people who suffer that kind of fraud? - We` At this stage, no. There's a lot of work to go. Committing to a full refund is the UK model. What we've seen there is the scammers have targeted the UK because they know that the people involved will get a full refund. People have not been as careful. - Do you have any evidence for that? - Yeah, the increase in scams in the UK. - Can you hand-on-heart say that New Zealand banks are doing everything they can to protect customers from scams? - I can hand-on-heart say we are working very, very hard to do everything we can to protect customers from scams. - People are still getting scammed. It's just beyond belief, to be quite honest. Honestly, they need to... (SIGHS) QUIETLY: They need to get their shit together. They really need to get their` get their (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) shit together. - Out of pocket and out of patience... all Beth and Tim want now is change. - I think it's really worth highlighting the mistakes that the banks have made. These lovely-branded big-named banks that we all grew up with in New Zealand and have known to love and cherish over the years are actually not working for your everyday New Zealander; they're working for themselves. - What are you fighting for? - I mean of course I'd like to be paid out, but that's not really why I'm doing this. I'm actually doing this because every New Zealander needs to know the holes in the system that you can drive a bus through, honestly. I think people need to know it. - Well, Commerce Minister Andrew Bayly says he's disappointed banks haven't updated their code of practice to reflect the increase in scams. The government says it's watching closely and expects rapid progress on a reimbursement scheme for victims and confirmation of payee. E whai ake nei ` a crucial and little-known weapon in the scammer's arsenal... - How much money did you receive in your bank account? - I believe $660,000. - But you never got suspicious? - She had a reason for everything, an excuse for everything. - ...an unwitting accomplice to an unbelievable fraud. - They totally used me. - Hoki mai ano. They're known as money mules, and they're a key ` and sometimes unwitting ` part of scams. The man you're about to hear from has been charged with moving hundreds of thousands of dollars through his bank accounts. He was also tricked out of thousands of his own. We can't show his face, but he wants to share his story so that it doesn't happen to anyone else. - How did you meet this person that you knew as Cherlyn? - I met on a dating site called Hi5. - And what did she tell you about herself? - Her business is in New Zealand, and, uh, she has just temporarily gone to Malaysia. - Did you ever see her face? - Well, I asked many times to have a video call with her, and, um, she said her camera wasn't working, so... (CHUCKLES) - When did she first ask you for money? - Well, at first, she was saying her dogs in New Zealand... were being looked after because they're a bit sick, so for me to send $1000 to somebody in New Zealand. So I did that. And then she mentioned that, um, she was stopped at the airport. She hadn't declared her taxes on her goods... and she can't get back to New Zealand and asked me if I could help her. - How much money was she looking for? - It would start off at 5000 and then said her taxes were 35,000, so I sent over those funds. - Did you ever get suspicious about what the money was for? - Oh no, I believed her... 100% at the time. - How much of your money did you give her altogether? - Within about a month, I would have loaned her about... it must have been 110,000. - $110,000? - Yeah, 60K from myself... and the others was in loans. - So you borrowed $50,000... - Yes. ...to help this woman? - Yes. - How difficult was that to repay? - Well, very difficult, because it was my understanding that she'd be back in New Zealand within three weeks, and next minute, um, I'm paying, um... must have been 340 a week back in loans. I went to the police station and complained, uh, a bit concerned I've seen all this money overseas. They told me to fill out a form and bring it back after I get some photocopies off the messages. And, yeah, so I went away, and obviously, that was good for the scammers cos then they can` she can continue to convince me that everything's fine. - When did the conversation turn from her asking you for money to asking you to help move some money around? - That's when she mentioned her business, and, um, to help out a business... and with the clients. - So why did she say that her clients' money needed to go through your account. - The understanding I had at the time was that, um, the funds were good to her. Now she's a licensed importer. She dealt in high-end goods. So I was believing that I was helping her with the business. - How much money did you receive in your bank account altogether? - Over the period of a year that had been happening, I believe 660,000. - 660,000? But you never got suspicious. - We came to the point where I was basically arguing against everyone who was trying to tell me otherwise. She had a reason for everything, an excuse for everything. The bank were trying to tell me that those funds are fraudulent, and I didn't believe them. - How did you realise that you had been scammed? - Uh, I hate to say it, but, um, even when the police came in and visited me, I was still helping her. It was not until I realised, um... I've gone to court, and she's not there to support me. Then I realised that, OK, I'd been had. - What do you know about where that money coming into your account really came from? The judge said one of them was a solo mum... - Mm-hm. - ...another received the money after a partner had died. If they were listening right now, what would you say? - Well, I really apologise for what had happened, because, um... I really believed this person, and these were clients, turns out to be all fake. - You were a victim too. - Yes, definitely. And she exploited my trust, my patience. They totally used me. - Last year, I think you learned some more about the people who actually scammed you. - Yes. She is one of the big players, and they're operating from many different countries. And it is a business that she's got, but it's not a legal one. And also, I'm not the only boyfriend she's got` online boyfriend. I'm just one of many. - So she's still out there... - She's still doing it. - ...still scamming people. - She's going as hard as ever. - So what is your advice to people? - If you're looking for love, um, don't do it online. Um, go join a social group, a sports club... a church. Just go out. - Something face to face. - Face to face. But if you do happen to go online, if they ask for $100, block them. If they say they're overseas or something, block them. Block everything, because they're not going to stop. They'll do every trick under the sun. - Well, Harry was convicted of money laundering late last year. Sentencing notes show that harry has autism, giving context to why he continued to offend, despite police and bank warnings. The judge said he showed a desire to please others after being isolated and manipulated by the scammer. E haere ake nei ` are we done with death? - There's no 'til death do us part' here. No, we'll be here holding hands like this forever, whichever way it goes. - A brave new world... - If we had to do a patient tomorrow, we could do it. - ...where hope runs hot and cold. - How confident are you that the science will exist? I'm at somewhere between the uh... let's say 20%; 20%, 30%. - Nau mai ano. Perhaps the only ironclad truth about life is that it ends in death. But as our scientific knowledge increases, more and more are choosing to believe that this too will become a grey area. They say that death could one day be considered a curable disease. So is the prospect of living forever possible ` or even desirable? Tonight, advocates of cryonics tell Amelia Adams that it's time to start getting ready for life after life. (SERENE MUSIC) - AMELIA ADAMS: Allan and Barbara Pease don't know what the future holds, but they're certain about one thing ` they don't want to end up here. After 35 years of wedded bliss, they've decided 'till death do us part' isn't long enough. They want their love story to continue into eternity. Seeing you two together and seeing the way you live, you have a fantastic life. So do you` - Well, we want more of it. That's the point, isn't it? We want more` want more of it. We can't imagine giving it up. - So, no, death doesn't` We don't think about it. We just live in the moment and enjoy every second joy. Enjoy our kids, our grandkids, ourselves. We just love exploring life. - But you just don't want this life to end. - No. - Well, reality is it will, but there'll be the next life, whatever that may be, and it's the unknown to a large extent, because we don't really know what it'll be. - But a conventional burial or cremation won't allow them to find out, leaving just one option. They've signed up to be cryopreserved at Australia's first-ever cryonics facility. - They've got the technology to put us in, but they haven't quite figured out how to bring us out yet. And there's always a risk, but the alternative is eternal blackness. I mean, that's not an alternative for us. - When the time comes for each of them, their bodies will make a final journey from their home in Queensland's Sunshine Coast hinterland to the small country town of Holbrook, halfway between Sydney and Melbourne, where Southern Cryonics owner Peter Tsolakides is almost ready to open the doors after 14 years of planning. - We're at a stage where if we had to do patient tomorrow, we could do it. It would be our first one, but we could do it. We have members who are who are in their 80s and late 80s. We have to assume that within the next year or so, something will happen. - It's a lovely old country town, but, um, it's perhaps an unlikely place for a cryonics facility. Why Holbrook? - We're looking for a place low earthquake, low fire danger, low flood danger. They were the important things. (CURIOUS MUSIC) - In this 100m2 concrete shed, bodies will be cooled to subzero temperatures. Then they'll be put into a tank like this one, where they could spend hundreds of years until science and technology evolves to somehow bring them back to life. How confident are you that science will exist? - I'm at somewhere between the, um, let's say the 20%, 20% or 30%. - It's a long shot, but Allan and Barbara think there's very little to lose. - Cryo's like if you're on an aeroplane flying over the Alps, and the captain comes on and says, 'Unfortunately, the engines are all conked out. We're going to crash in the next 50 minutes. 'However, we do have onboard experimental parachutes. 'They've never been used. We've worked on them for years. We think they're going to work. 'And even if you bail out and hit the ground, we don't know what's down below.' Would you take the parachute? - You'd take the parachute. Everybody says, 'Yeah, I'll take the parachute.' Well, that's cyrosuspension is. It's a parachute. - Let me show you a little bit about what we're doing. - Well, look at him. - So far, 50 Australians, from doctors to bus drivers in their 30s to their 80s, have paid $150,000 to secure a spot here. - This is what we call the cooling chamber. The importance is that we need to bring them down to liquid nitrogen temperature very slowly. - There's only one tank here right now, but the plan is to fill the shed with them. Each tank will hold four bodies. - And I look at it and I think, 'Well, we're going to be here for a long time, but we won't know.' We won't know we're going to be there. It'll be just like going to sleep. And whether it's 20 years, 50 years, 100 years or however long it takes, it'll feel like five minutes. And if something goes wrong and we don't come out of it, we won't know. - It's an unlikely sort of a cemetery, isn't it? - Yeah. - I want a photo of Allan and I on our little cylinder (LAUGHS) so the kids can go, 'Hey, Mum.' - I wanted to put a glass window so we could have our eyes open, smiling, looking out. (BOTH LAUGH) - Do you think about if you came back and some of your children were gone, the world's a different place? I mean, is that appealing to you? - Look, I think the world will definitely be a different place, but I'm excited by that. To actually come back and have our babies and grandbabies here would be amazing. - And even if we knew nobody, so what, eh? - As long as we've got each other` - It's like exploring, isn't it? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Pioneers. - On the other side of the world, American Kim Suozzi wanted to be a pioneer too. Diagnosed with brain cancer at just 23, the budding neuroscience student chose to be cyropreserved. - KIM: It's not that I'm scared of dying, but I don't want to die knowing that they could have done something more. - For boyfriend, Josh Schisler, memories of Kim's sudden diagnosis are still incredibly raw. - It was like a pretty big shock. They basically told her she was going to die in two years. We discussed cryonics, like, pretty immediately just cos it was something we had already established, like, throughout college. But at that point, it's just theoretical, right? You're not thinking you're going to die. - But Kim was dying, and cryopreservation isn't cheap. The Alcor Life Extension facility in Arizona charges up to $300,000, so she turned to the internet to raise the funds. - I'm totally, totally shocked by the response that I've had from both my friends, my family and the cryo community. - Less than two years later, in 2013, Kim and Josh made a final journey to the cryo building. - She declined, like, really rapidly. So I was scared that... I got really scared that she was going to die before we got there. It was really good to get here and to be here, and it was, like, the last leg of a... of a horrible journey. (POIGNANT MUSIC) - Kim got her dying wish ` suspended in liquid nitrogen for who knows how long. But 11 years since her death, the science of cryonics remains unproven. - I remain to be convinced that it's anything other than an extreme expression of wishful thinking. - Yes, a note of caution. E haere ake nei ` is the cryo community listening? - It's kind of crazy to think that she's in there. - Yeah, we don't have evidence it works yet, but there's actually zero evidence that it wont work. - You'd rather be in the tank than in the ground? - Oh yeah, absolutely in the tank, yeah. - Absolutely. Got options then, (EASY-GOING ACOUSTIC MUSIC) - On the outskirts of Phoenix in Arizona sits the world's longest-running cryonics facility, Alcor Life Extension Foundation. Well, this is really impressive, James. How many people/patients do you have in here? - We have approximately 200, a little more than that, and people from all walks of life, different ages, you know, different circumstances, different nationalities, all over the world. - James Arrowood is co-CEO of Alcor... and a paying member, which means when he dies, he'll be stacked in one of these enormous steel and aluminium tanks called dewars. Each one holds four bodies, and as grim as it sounds, several decapitated heads. Because some people choose to preserve only their brains in the hope that one day, science may be able to engineer them a new body. - It's scary, but you're part of history. And if we're successful, even in part, you make history, and your body contributed to that. - It's almost like we're on the set of a kooky science-fiction movie, but the residents entombed here are real, and this is their sombre resting place. And how long will these patients be in the tanks? - Well, the good news is, is that the storage here can be indefinite, OK? So at the temperatures we're at, nothing occurs, nothing happens. That's the goal. - Like, hundreds of years? - Could be hundreds of years. - Kim Suozzi is among them ` diagnosed with brain cancer when she was 23, the neuroscience student was determined to be cryopreserved when she died. That was 11 years ago. Her brain is now suspended at minus-196 degrees here at Alcor... in the hope that one day, she might be revived. For Kim's brother, John Suozzi, and her boyfriend, Josh Schisler, this room full of tanks is the closest thing they have to a cemetery. - It's kind of crazy to think that she's in there, probably sharing it with a lot of other people, huh? - Yeah. It's, uh... I guess nicer than a coffin or any other thing that I could think that she could have done. It's nice to visit and remember, uh... that Kim was able to get what she wanted. - I think the whole idea of cryopreservation is better than rotting or being cremated. (DRAMATIC MUSIC) - And this is where it all happens. We're in the trauma room at Alcor. The process is a military-style operation. In fact, many of the medics on the team are former US Navy Seals. - Generally, we look for about a two-hour window to deploy our team anywhere in the world. And when they deploy, they have to take specialised kits that you see in front of you, and these kits have things that don't exist pretty much anywhere else in the world. - The teams are up against the clock. - Again, you're trying to control the time, the temperature, and you're trying to have very little variance. So you don't want to have the body suddenly drop 50 degrees. - OK. The aim is to prepare the body for the antifreeze agent, a very expensive, unproven chemical called cryoperfusate. - It's an experimental chemical, doesn't exist anywhere else, really, and that is used to replace the blood in your body, and that prevents freezing of cells. - For all this optimism about the possibility of life after death, the reality is much more subdued. - There's no way the body, let alone the brain, can be adequately protected with the antifreeze. - Clive Coen is a world-renowned professor of neuroscience. At Britain's esteemed King's College in London, Prof Coen teaches students the intricate workings of the brain, and he's extremely cynical about cryonics. Is there any way to pause the process of the brain dying? - Somebody who has died, by definition, has a heart that can no longer be restarted, and therefore there is no way that the organ of our identity, the brain, can get that oxygen back in there again and keep the system functioning. - Well, OK, yeah, we don't have evidence that works yet. right, in terms of the brain coming back, fully acknowledge that. - Right. - Uh, but there's actually zero evidence that it won't work, and people are familiar with this in the terms of, like, IVF and an embryo I mean, you have a human that's walking around that was the result of a similar liquid nitrogen kind of storage process. The difference is one of scale. - It's not just a matter of scale. So, it's a completely different, um... category from the matter of sperm and eggs and eight-cell embryos. - While the prospect of eternal life is clearly compelling to cryonics investors and members, Prof Coen and many others in the science community are keenly waiting for evidence. - I don't see how this exercise could make significant contributions to science. What would make a contribution to science would be if they could test the whole proposition in a small mammal first, and show that it works. - So what do you say then to your critics who say you're peddling false hope? - To our critics who say we're peddling false hope, I say don't do it. I'm not selling it to you. We're a non-profit; I don't make extra money if you sign up. You have got to want to do this. (GENTLE ACOUSTIC MUSIC) - John Suozzi and Josh Schisler are glad their beloved Kim made the choice to be cryopreserved. - I mean, I think she would be happy that we're hanging out and going to see her, right. - Yeah. I mean, I guess... there's two scenarios ` one where she gets revived; and when she gets revived, I'm sure she's got to feel pretty cool about the decision. - (LAUGHS) - You know, like, 'I told you.' But there's also the scenario where she doesn't get revived. And in that scenario, what's the difference between that and what would have naturally happened? - And also she won't know. - Right. (ALLAN PLAYS SOFT PIANO MUSIC) - BOTH: # I love you. # I honestly love you. - Here in Australia, devotees of the nation's first cryonics facility Allan and Barbara Pease won't let the critics undermine their conviction ` or change the tune of their love song. - # ...maybe it's better left unsaid. - They're determined to continue their adventures well beyond this life. # I honestly love you. # - BARBARA: There's no 'till death do we part' here. - No, we'll be together, holding hands like this forever, whichever way it goes. You look out across at the cemetery, and you go, 'They're not coming back. They don't have any choice, none at all.' We've got an option of coming back, and if it doesn't work, well, we won't know. - But you'd rather be in the tank than in the ground? - Oh yeah, absolutely in the tank, yeah. - Absolutely. Got options then. - Yeah, well, the future's unknown, but... why not? It's exciting, you know. When you don't know, that's the excitement. That's a bit we like about it, hey, Barb? - Well, Australia's Southern Cryonics facility says it can hold up to 40 patients. They already have 27 signed up. They say these people have invested in an experimental lifesaving treatment, rather than an expensive funeral. That's our show for tonight. We'd love to hear from you, particularly if you've been a victim of bank scams. Find us on social media or send us an email ` sunday@tvnz.co.nz. And you can watch our stories on the Sunday page at TVNZ+. Thanks for joining us. Nga mihi nui, hei kona.