The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 04, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: …try to stop traffic across the bridge. Plus, a Texas National Guard member is under arrest, accused of trying to smuggle a migrant near the border. The police of a video of a high speed chase that led to the arrest. And leading this hour, President Biden trying to lay down the law today with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Biden making new demands, warning of consequences if Israeli forces do not take concrete steps to try to protect civilian lives in Gaza. The 30 minutes call was the first conversation between the leaders since Israel's strike Monday in Gaza that killed seven aid workers from the World Central Kitchen, the nonprofit started by celebrity chef Jose Andres. The killings touching off a new level of frustration from the president with the way Israel is waging this campaign against Hamas. Later this hour, I'm going to talk to Senator Bernie Sanders, a critic of Netanyahu. But let's start this hour at the White House with CNN's MJ Lee. MJ, what are we learning about today's call between President Biden and the Israeli prime minister? MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, for now, we do appear to be at a bit of a turning point in this war because for the first time since October 7, President Biden has threatened that unless Israel changes the way that it is conducting this war, the U.S.'s policies could change when it comes to the war. The White House saying that Israel must take specific concrete and measurable steps to alleviate the humanitarian crisis and the civilian suffering, and if not, the U.S. would reconsider its policies. But these are steps, Jake, that we have heard the White House talking about for weeks and sometimes too little effect. And what is not clear at all right now is how the White House would actually measure the effectiveness of these changes that they are calling for. This is a little bit of my exchange with White House spokesman John Kirby a little earlier this afternoon. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LEE: You're not specifying what concrete steps Israel must take. JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: I gave you some -- a broad sense of it. We want to see more crossings opened up. We want to see more trucks getting in, particularly from Jordan. We want to see tangible steps at the mitigation of civilian harm. LEE: That's language we've heard for weeks now. You're not talking about sort of telling us how exactly you will measure those measurable steps. Right? KIRBY: What I said was we're going to -- we're going to examine our policy approaches based on our assessment of the way the Israeli side modifies their behavior, modifies their policy and decision making processes. (END VIDEO CLIP) LEE: And just as importantly, Jake, the White House has not elaborated at all on what kinds of U.S. policy changes are potentially on the table. Of course, up until today, the White House has been clear and has repeated that they are not considering the possibility of conditioning U.S. aid to Israel. Now, one thing that the White House also says that they didn't get into the two leaders in this phone call are details of these Israeli strikes that resulted in the deaths of those seven aid workers. They are saying that they are still waiting on the full results of Israel's investigation into the matter and how that aid convoy ended up being targeted in the first place, Jake. TAPPER: There has been serious concern from some in the U.S. that the Israeli military is going to press ahead with this ground incursion into Rafah despite pleas from the Biden administration that they don't do it. Did Biden bring that up? LEE: Yes, you know, actually, I asked that question precisely to John Kirby as well. And he actually said that in this phone call today, that was not a main topic of discussion. This is, of course, something that Israeli officials, as you said, have been saying is basically inevitable despite U.S. officials repeatedly saying that that would be completely unacceptable without a plan to protect civilians in the region. Of course, this was a big point of discussion in the virtual meeting that U.S. officials had earlier this week with an Israeli delegation. But this does stand to be sort of the next big test of the U.S. Israel relationship as this war goes on is whether Israel decides to go ahead with this ground military operation into Rafah despite those repeated warnings from U.S. officials, Jake. TAPPER: All right, MJ Lee, thank you so much. Let's bring in Leon Panetta. He served as the former defense secretary and former CIA director during the Obama administration. Thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it. Both Biden and Netanyahu are facing considerable political pressure as the war continues. What's your reaction to Biden telling Netanyahu that an immediate ceasefire is needed? [17:05:00] LEON PANETTA, FORMER OBAMA ADMIN. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, I think it was very important to make that request, that if anything is needed right now, it is an immediate ceasefire. It is an effort to try to exchange the hostages, and it is an effort to try to improve humanitarian aid. Look, I think this war has going on for almost six months, and I think to some extent, both President Biden and Netanyahu have been talking past each other when it comes to their concerns. I think that's changed. I hope that's changed today as a result of what happened with these aid workers and as a result of this conversation that they understand that things cannot continue the way they've been. TAPPER: What is your response when you criticize how Israel is conducting this war and you hear from supporters of Israel, as I do? Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, it's right in their charter. Hamas started this on October 7 with their attack on civilians and their kidnapping. Hamas could end this war today if they turned over the hostages and surrendered, which is traditionally what you do when you're losing. And Hamas doesn't care about the lives of the Palestinian people. I don't -- I'm not disputing any of those claims. But what's your response when people say that as if that means Israel can conduct the war any way it wants? PANETTA: Well, I think that's the answer. It doesn't give them a license to not pay attention to humanitarian needs, not pay attention to not misfiring on innocent aid workers. It doesn't give them a license to basically not pay attention to the larger issue here, which is, are you going to get a ceasefire, are you going to be able to get your hostages exchanged, and are you going to be able to establish real lines of communication for humanitarian aid? No one questions Israel's right to defend themselves. No one questions their right to go after Hamas. That's understandable. We went after al-Qaeda after 9/11. Nobody questioned the fact that we could go after them, but we also went after them in a targeted way. It took a long time, but we eventually got those that were responsible for 9/11. The same thing can happen with Israel if they use targeted efforts to go after Hamas and if they do it in a way that does realize that humanitarian aid is necessary here in order to save lives. TAPPER: Today, Secretary of State Blinken said that if the U.S. does not see changes by the Israeli military and the Israeli government to take further steps to protect innocent civilians in Gaza, there will be changes in our own policy, that's the quote, there will be changes in our own policy. Like what? What do you think the U.S. should do if Netanyahu and the IDF continue to wage the war in a way that Biden disapproves of? PANETTA: Well, look, I don't think there's any question that we'll have to apply conditions to the military aid that we're providing to Israel. Congress is already considering that possibility. So I think it's pretty clear that if they just continue as they are now and we see no change with regards to how they're dealing with humanitarian aid, how they're dealing with innocent victims there in Gaza, then I think there is no question in my mind but we're going to start having to apply condition, and that will make it that much more difficult on Israel to conduct this war. But it is the consequence of not working with us to try to deal with what happened in that horrific attack to make sure that we are paying attention to innocent lives. TAPPER: Is there any way that Netanyahu will conduct this war in a way more pleasing to the president of the United States and the Biden administration as long as Netanyahu depends upon the participation in his government of these right wing zealots, Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, these individuals who want Palestinians to leave Gaza, who want to take the West bank and make it part of Israel, who are anti-Arab racists. I mean, Netanyahu depends on their participation in his government for his political survival. Is there any way forward as long as he cares more about them, Netanyahu caring more about Smotrich and Ben-Gvir than he cares about Biden? [17:10:00] PANETTA: Look, there's one thing that Netanyahu will pay attention to, which is whether or not he will survive. You know, he is a survivor. I think the first time I met Netanyahu, it was back in the Clinton administration, and throughout that period of time, somehow he's always been able to survive. I think his biggest concern, his biggest is his political situation in Israel. There are now 100,000 people who are demonstrating in Israel because they want to cease fire and they want to see the hostage's exchange. I think ultimately, if Netanyahu does not change the way he's dealing with the situation, that it is going to end his term as prime minister. So, that is the one thing that I think is an incentive for Netanyahu to change. TAPPER: When I spoke with you near the start of the Israeli ground invasion in Gaza, you said that you were confident it would be, quote, "A well-planned operation, not something that they pull out of their hat," unquote. We're now almost at the six month mark of this war. Tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians have been killed. The U.N. is warming, warning of a catastrophic famine because not enough aid has been allowed into Gaza. Did you anticipate the scale of the humanitarian crisis that we're seeing? PANETTA: No. I really thought that this war would move a lot faster than it did. And what we've seen now is what, almost 33,000 lives of innocent Palestinians that have been lost. But at the same time, look, Israel has made progress with regards to dealing with Hamas. Hamas does not have the capability, at least at this point, to conduct another October 7 attack. But what I never sensed was that there was a clear mission that had been established, that it would be clear could be achieved by Israel. Netanyahu keeps saying, we're going to destroy Hamas. Look, you're not going to destroy Hamas. Hamas is going to be around. What you can destroy is the leadership that was involved by Hamas in the attack on October 7. And I don't think he's made that clear, that ultimately this is about killing the leadership of Hamas, not just wiping out Hamas. If we had a better sense of mission here, I think we'd have a better sense of how this work could come to an end. TAPPER: Leon Panetta, thank you so much, as always, for your time. PANETTA: Good to be with you. TAPPER: We're also going to get reaction to all of this from Independent Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, who will join me soon. Plus, we're learning of an incredible close call, a Southwest Airlines flight midair with passengers flying dangerously close to air traffic control at New York's LaGuardia Airport. How in the world that happened. That's next. Plus, the language used in an email from Independent candidate Robert F. Kennedy junior, who's running for president, that his campaign is now trying to walk back. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:21] TAPPER: Another close call in the air. The FAA is investigating a Southwest Airlines flight from last month that might have flown too close to the air traffic control tower when trying to land at New York's LaGuardia Airport. CNN's Pete Muntean is with me. Pete, this wasn't a close call on a runway. It wasn't a close call between two planes. It was between a plane and an air traffic control tower, which is fairly stationary, as I recall. How did this happen? PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: This could have been a lot worse. And this flight was coming in from Nashville landing at LaGuardia. The visibility in the weather was pretty poor at the time, only about three quarters of a mile of visibility. They were doing something called the ILS, which is called an instrument landing system that's essentially a radio beam that glides a plane down on the glide path gets you lined up on the runway. This flight had to go around once before because they had a bit of a tailwind, they said the approach wasn't like what they wanted, so then they came back around and tried to land again. And I just want you to listen now to the soundbite from LiveATC.net captured the audio from the air traffic control tower. Clearly, this plane was about to hit it. Here's what they said. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go around, go around. Fly runway heading. Climb and maintain 2,000. Climb and maintain 2,000. Two thousand. Continue climbing Southwest 147, and when able state a reason why you were like not on the approach. (END AUDIO CLIP) MUNTEAN: So the plane clearly was not lined up with the runway, instead lined up a little bit east of the path that they were supposed to be lined up with. This is the graphic from Flightradar24, the tracking site that gets all of the open source data from these airplanes that put out the radio beam. You can see in the photo there, that yellow strip, that's the path of the plane. The tower is a little bit to the right of it. Flightradar24 says this plane's wingtip came -- the plane itself came within 250 feet of the tower. But when you factor in the position of the antenna, this may have been closer to about 65 feet away horizontally from the wingtip. So, this was a very, very close call. And the FAA says it's now looking into this to see if this plane ultimately did come that close to the control tower. The NTSB, which typically investigates only the most serious infractions in the sky. They say they're gathering data right now to see what the deal with this was. This flight ultimately did divert because the weather was so bad there at LaGuardia went to BWI instead. TAPPER: All right. Pete, I also want to get into your reporting. Since last week's bridge collapse, we're learning a Maryland advisory group is calling for added protections to the bridge. You told us about yesterday that people are worried about the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. You're reporting yesterday about concerns about that. Tell us about that. MUNTEAN: Well, this is really interesting. Because they've actually cited the reporting that I did, along with CNN's investigation team, that said that the Bay Bridge was essentially vulnerable to the same type of ship collision that took down the key bridge in Baltimore. Interestingly, both of those bridges are on the same shipping channel used by the MV Dali, 55 million tons of cargo go under the Chesapeake Bay bridge as well each and every year. And so, what this advisory group said is that we're essentially a sitting duck. And they said, for the record, somebody needs to look at that when it comes to the Bay Bridge. [17:20:25] This may be good timing, though, because there's been a committee that's looked at putting a new bridge in different places across the Chesapeake Bay. They are putting a third span in eventually at the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. So, maybe they could intercede here and ultimately get some protections on the bridge known as dolphins to sort of defend from a ship collision. TAPPER: Yes, and credit to them for acknowledging your reporting and acknowledging that it's real and a serious problem. MUNTEAN: No doubt. TAPPER: Because a lot of times government officials are like, oh, nothing to see here. So good on them for that at least. There's also new audio out today that you're bringing us, providing a clearer picture of what the workers, those poor workers on the Francis Scott key bridge might have known in the minutes before that horrific collapse. What does the audio suggest? MUNTEAN: This essentially sort of points to maybe some of the communications issues that were taking place on the Key Bridge at the time. And some of the audio is a little bit garbled, but I want you to listen now. This is from a maintenance radio frequency where folks on the bridge were essentially hearing what the dispatch was saying about that there was a ship coming in that could be errant. Listen. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you say? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to get a message out. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you say? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to get a message out. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still don't understand you buddy, slow down and speak. They're just holding traffic because ship lost the steering. That's all. (END AUDIO CLIP) MUNTEAN: So a bit of a window into the early response there. We know that the actions of first responders and the radio call from the bridge of the ship, MV Dali, ultimately did get the bridge, the Key Bridge cleared relatively quickly when it came to vehicular traffic. No real smoking gun here. And it's not totally clear if the six construction workers who were on the Key Bridge doing pothole repairs who perished from this, not totally clear if they heard this message. TAPPER: All right, Pete Muntean, thank you so much for that excellent reporting. A Texas National Guard member is accused of trying to smuggle a migrant near the border. Dash cam video just in shows the high speed chase that led to his arrest. We'll show it to you next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …