The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 16, 2024 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. … (COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the challenge at the U.S. Supreme Court that could upend cases some 350 Capitol riot defendants' cases. … The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 16, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The issue, a single obstruction charge. The debate and arguments today that could even impact Donald Trump's January 6 criminal case. Plus, the rather dramatic delivery on Capitol Hill today. House Republicans sending two articles of impeachment against Department of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas over to the U.S. Senate for trial. The underlying message House Republicans are trying to send about one of the biggest issues dividing America right now. And leading this hour, day two of the New York hush money cover up case against Donald Trump going long. And on a very critical day, court was supposed to wrap for the day about half an hour ago. Let's go right to CNN's Brynn Gingras in New York. She's outside the court. Brynn, what are you hearing? Why are they still in session there? BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Still trying to find that jury, Jake. You know, at the beginning of the day, it was sort of unclear if there was going to be a single juror seated. And now by today, at this moment, there are six that are seated, including a foreperson. So the process is continuing at this very hour. Some of the details about the six people that we know about so far, of course, they remain anonymous, but one is originally from Ireland. That person is already declared the foreperson when this case goes to trial. There's an oncology nurse, there's a corporate lawyer. There's one person who actually told the courtroom that he found Trump fascinating. There's another person who says that they appreciate Trump's candor but didn't really have strong political views. All different ages, marriage -- not -- married, not married, different sort of, you know, group of people that are right now sitting on the jury. And before that, though, there was quite a process. We know that the jurors who went through this process had to answer 42 questions. You know, where did they get their news from? What sort of -- you know, have they gone to a Trump rally? Sort of those questions. But after that, that's when both the prosecution and Trump's attorneys could really ask deeper questions to get some answers. Well, they did that. And then after a short break in court, Trumps attorneys came back and its clear that they were digging through the social medias of some of these people who were prospective jurors. In one case, they found that one juror had put on Facebook to lock him up. He was dismissed on cause by the judge. Another juror, there was video of that woman somewhat celebrating in a video posted to Facebook when Joe Biden won the election in 2020, that person was dismissed by the former president's attorneys. But all in all, remember that each side has 10 strikes and so far with the numbers, Trump's team has struck four jurors and prosecutors have struck three. Jake, this is a continuing process, right now we're going late because they're continuing with more jurors. A fresh group of 96 people went into the courtroom and they're starting that process, but likely we'll be wrapping up soon. But, Jake, big news here, six jurors now seated for this criminal trial. TAPPER: And Brynn, Judge Merchan admonished Donald Trump at one point, what happened? GINGRAS: Yes, this was in that process where they brought jurors back in to ask further questions. And Trump's attorneys asked one person a question about their social media. And Trump had a, what we're being told is a visible and somewhat audible reaction to this person's answer. Once that prospective juror left the courtroom, the judge immediately told Trump's attorneys to basically, you know, keep control of him. He said, quote, "I will not have jurors intimidated in my courtroom." So, certainly got a scolding there. For the most part, though, Jake, Trump has been very much involved. Sometimes he's sitting back, leaning back and listening, but he has been sort of corresponding with his defense attorneys throughout this entire process. TAPPER: All right, Brynn, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Let's discuss it all with former federal prosecutor Gene Rossi. He's the former assistant U.S. attorney general in the eastern district of the great commonwealth of Virginia. So, Gene, six jurors have been seated. The Trump team is frustrated. One juror was dismissed today for having a pro-Trump bias. They're upset about that because they're already afraid that the heavily Democratic makeup of Manhattan is not going to work in their favor. Will -- do you think their goal is to find the fairest jury possible or is their goal ultimately to find at least one person that could deadlock the jury? GENE ROSSI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't think they're shooting for an acquittal. I think they're trying to get one, two, or three jurors that will hang. And here's the goal of any prosecutor defense attorney, whether it's a civil case or criminal case, you want a juror that can put aside their biases and prejudices, their biases for Trump, or prejudice against them, and apply to law to the facts as they see them. And they have to focus on that mission like a laser beam, both sides. But I got to tell you this, if I were President Trump, I see encouraging signs that he could possibly get a fair and impartial, simply (ph), fair and impartial juror. And for the prosecution, this is moving much faster than I thought. I this would be a two week process and it's possible we could have opening statements this coming Monday. [17:05:03] TAPPER: Interesting. Let's play a little game of hypothetical seat the jury -- ROSSI: I love that. TAPPER: -- where you examine what some potential jurors said today in court and judge what you thought -- ROSSI: Yes. TAPPER: -- of what they said. So Trump attorney Todd Blanche tried to elicit one potential juror's view about Donald Trump. What do you think of Donald Trump? And the man said, my view doesn't matter, quote, "If were sitting in a bar, I'd be happy to tell you. But in this room, what I feel about President Trump is not important or imperative." He then, you know, acknowledged that he was a Democrat, which is something that's just a matter of public record. ROSSI: Right. TAPPER: Would you, if you were on Trump's team, would you seat that person? ROSSI: I would probably -- I'd be at equipoise. But I love that juror's response. That gives me a hope that we have a fair trial here. TAPPER: Yes, that's what they're supposed to think. ROSSI: I know, but the way this juror said it, to me, I think this juror really meant it. And this is what I love about trials, I've done almost 100 jury trials, when the jurors get in that jury box and the doors to the courtroom are closed, and it's only the judge, the participants, and the audience, I love when jurors are able to put out all the crowd noise, the noise on the street and focus on what comes out of the witness box and what the documents show. That is a beautiful thing. And that's going to happen here, where they can just put everything aside and just focus on the facts as they see them. It's a beautiful part of the criminal justice process. TAPPER: So another potential juror works with a Bronx district attorney, says he knows that the Manhattan DA is going to have to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. He notes that he has, quote, "a lot of friends in law enforcement who are pro-Trump." But he says he doesn't have an opinion himself about national politics. What do you think if you're -- ROSSI: If I'm the Trump team, go on. OK. First off, I don't want -- this is a prosecutor, you said? I don't want attorneys on my jury. TAPPER: Yes. Well, he works for the Bronx district attorney. But yes, I mean. ROSSI: Well, he's affiliated. TAPPER: Right. ROSSI: I would strike him in a New York -- TAPPER: Because he's affiliated with the prosecutor. ROSSI: -- a New York man and he would be struck if I were Trump. TAPPER: Here's some others, there's some interesting ones. So, these are people who were seated. The first seated juror, the foreperson, a man originally from Ireland, he works in sales, he has some college education, married, no kids, reads the "New York Times" and the Daily Mail, watches some Fox News and MSNBC. ROSSI: I would probably keep him if I were Trump. That's not a bad juror. I think this person could look at the evidence and be fair. That one I'd keep. TAPPER: Somebody who watches Fox and MSNBC is intriguing. ROSSI: Well, they're ambidextrous. TAPPER: The fifth juror, these are people who are already seated. These ones -- ROSSI: Exactly. TAPPER: -- that I'm reading here right now, a young black woman, she teaches English language in a public charter school. She has a master's in education. Unmarried, no kids. She says as a person of color, she has friends who have strong opinions on Trump. But personally, she's not political. She says she tried to avoid political conversations, doesn't read the news, didn't know that Trump is under trial in other jurisdictions. And in terms of Trump's candor, she said, quote, "President Trump speaks his mind. And I'd rather that than somebody who's in office who you don't know what they're thinking." She's seated. ROSSI: OK. That's a beautiful juror for President Trump. TAPPER: Really? ROSSI: Yes. And when I had my oath keeper trial, there were jurors that really didn't know what happened on January 6, believe it or not. And this trial was in D.C. This person puts aside all the crowd noise, only focus on life, and she's not influenced by the judge, Aileen Cannon or the other two cases beyond the New York City walls. TAPPER: So, third seat a juror is a corporate lawyer, originally from Oregon. He gets this news from the "New York Times," the Wall Street Journal, and Google. Younger man, no wife, no husband, no kids. ROSSI: OK. I would say that's leaning towards Trump. If I had a bet -- TAPPER: Just because -- well, we did say -- ROSSI: Well, Wall Street Journal. TAPPER: Yes. ROSSI: Reads the Wall Street Journal. TAPPER: Reads the Wall Street Journal. ROSSI: And he has no kids. And you know, I got to tell you, younger people like Trump for his outrageousness, his ability to speak his mind. That's a juror that may lean possibly towards Trump. TAPPER: Here's another one that's interesting. Older Puerto Rican man, married with adult children and grandkids. When asked about his hobbies, he says, I guess my hobby is my family. He is an IT business for training and consulting. He did one year of college. He told the court he finds Trump fascinating and mysterious. Quote, "So many people are set off one way or the other." And that this is interesting to me and said, really? This one guy can do all of this? Wow. He said Trump, quote, "makes things interesting." He said he doesn't have any strong feelings about his politics. ROSSI: I would say that's a good juror for Donald Trump. Because the jurors that you should want on this panel, not only ones that are going to be fair and impartial, but the ones that don't hate Trump, that are fascinated by Trump and that appreciate that he is frank and open about his feelings whether you agree with him or fervently disagree, those are the ones you want. [17:10:02] TAPPER: Fascinating stuff. All right. Well, that's just the first -- ROSSI: I love this. TAPPER: That's the first -- we'll have you back. There's more. Gene Rossi, thanks so much. Appreciate it. As Trump again today rails against this case and this judge, the political problem this case could pose with so many American voters not really paying attention to what's going on. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Right now, court is running longer than expected in New York City where jury selection is underway in Donald Trump's hush money cover up case. Six jurors have been seated. Other potential jurors are being questioned right now. Dan Pfeiffer joins us now. He's the former Obama White House communications director and co-host of "Pod Save America." Dan, good to see you. So some Republicans say no one's going to care even if Donald Trump's found guilty since it's a Democratic DA in a liberal city. On the other hand, you have Democrats worrying that Trump is Teflon. You disagree with both. You say, quote, "Neither candidate can afford to lose voters. [17:15:04] That's even more true for Trump who came up short last time. He must cling to every vote from his former presidency and find tens of thousands more. It's absurd to believe a criminal conviction doesn't make that task more challenging," unquote. So, you think the trial or the conviction is going to hurt him? Both or just to convict? DAN PFEIFFER, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Both. The trial. There's no -- there's an opportunity cost, right? Right now, Donald Trump is sitting at a defendant table in Manhattan while Joe Biden is campaigning on the economy in Scranton, Pennsylvania. That hurts Trump. Being in the news has generally been bad for Trump since he left the White House. Right? The more people see Trump, the less comfortable they are with him coming back to the White House. And now he's in a high profile trial where he has to be in court every single day or be arrested in the media capital of the world. A conviction would hurt him even more, obviously, right? And the people who say that voters don't care aren't reading the polls because in the "New York Times" poll that came out this weekend, 23 percent of Republicans -- sorry, 23 percent of Trump's 2020 voters, people who voted for him in 2020, say that the charges in this trial are very serious. TAPPER: This particular trial. PFEIFFER: So only a fraction of him -- this particular trouble, paying hush money payments to Stormy Daniels is the way they phrase the question. And so, even if a fraction of those people decide -- most of them come home to Trump, of course, even a fraction of them stay home or vote for Biden, that's ballgame in an election this close. TAPPER: Do you think, as a political observer, as somebody who obviously wants Joe Biden to win, do you think that one of these cases is more serious than the other? And how concerned are you about the fact that I don't know that they're going to be any other trials other than this one? PFEIFFER: Right. Right. If you were -- if I was rank ordering which of Trump's very serious crimes, I'd like to see him be held accountable before the election, common sense and the polling shows that voters are most concerned about the January 6 trial, what he did to try to overturn the election. Second is absconding from the White House with nuclear secrets and hiding them in your beach house. That's also very serious. This is probably the less serious of them, but the polls show people still take it very seriously. And in the exit polls from the Republican primary, they just ask people -- republican primary voters, will you -- you know, would you see Donald Trump as fit for the presidency if he's convicted of a crime, not either of these specific crimes. And around 30 percent of them said no, right? That's a problem for Trump. It just has to be. TAPPER: Do you -- why do you think Joe Biden is -- I know the polls have narrowed, even the "New York Times" poll that was problematic for him a few -- about a month ago has narrowed. But why do you think it is still such a struggle for Joe Biden to put this away, given all of Donald Trump's weaknesses and all of these trials? PFEIFFER: It's the economy. It is absolutely the economy. And in that "New York Times" poll, Donald Trump has a 60 -- a 63 point advantage on economic approval comparing how people feel about the economy during Trump's presidency and Biden's presidency. It's everyone's number one issue. And why the economy, it specifically is inflation, the cost of living, the cost of groceries. And President Biden's going to have to make a case as to why he's going to better to deal with that than Trump. But that is what is propping Trump up. It's these nostalgia for the cost of eggs and milk from 2019 is the foundation of his success. Whether that will remain true as more and more voters tune into this election and learn more about what he's saying and doing every day is an open question. But as of right now, that is what is keeping him afloat. TAPPER: And do you agree with the comments that Ron Klain was recorded and Politico reported on former White House chief of staff for Biden, Ron Klain, that he thinks Biden is, quote, "out there talking too much about bridges," unquote, and not enough about milk and eggs and rising day to day prices. Do you agree with that? That he needs to be talking more about groceries and stuff? You know what I mean. Cost of living stuff? PFEIFFER: Yes, I do. Yes, I agree with Ron's follow up to Politico after they found that recording that since the state of the union, the president has -- had a very middle class focused message that talks about the cost of living, I think he should do that. What he did today in Scranton was very good. Infrastructure is one of those issues. It's a huge accomplishment for the president. It's a place where he succeeded and Trump failed. It is often one of those issues that voters say they care about but isn't a major driver of their decision on whom to vote for. But going forward, doing what he did in the state of the union, doing what he did today, drawing a sharp contrast between who Trump is going to cut taxes for, who Joe Biden's going to fight for, that is the right thing to do. I think they're on the right path right now. TAPPER: Dan Pfeiffer, good to see you. Thanks for coming by. Appreciate it. To Capitol Hill next, where we watch this dramatic formality, House Republicans walking over to the U.S. Senate carrying articles of impeachment against the Homeland security secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas. The divisive issue behind this special delivery, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:24:00] TAPPER: And in our law and justice lead, you are looking live at the Manhattan courthouse where court is still in session, running longer than expected as prospective jurors are being questioned in Donald Trump's hush money trial. Six jurors have been seated so far. It's a third of what's needed for this trial to get underway, with 12 jurors and six alternates. In our politics lead this afternoon, House Republicans delivered the articles of impeachment against Department of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, walking them to the U.S. Senate as is customary. Republicans are blaming Mayorkas for the high number of border crossings as the Republican Party faces pressure from its base to hold the Biden administration even more accountable for that crisis. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MARK GREEN (R-TN): Despite clear evidence that his willful and systemic refusal to comply with the law has significantly contributed to unprecedented levels of illegal immigrants entrance, the increased control of the southwest border by drug cartels, and the imposition of enormous costs on states and localities affected by the influx of aliens, Alejandro N. Mayorkas has continued in his refusal to comply with the law. (END VIDEO CLIP) [17:25:08] TAPPER: The Democratic controlled Senate is expected to either dismiss this impeachment trial right away or they may hold an abbreviated trial that's expected to wrap by the end of the week. Democratic Strategist Karen Finney and former Trump White House Communications Director Mike Dubke are back with me. And, Mike, a cabinet secretary has not been impeached in 150 years. So this is historic. MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It is. TAPPER: Do you think that House Republicans did the right thing? And what do you think Senate Democrats should do? DUBKE: Well, let me focus on the 21 times that articles of impeachment have been walked across the Capitol, 21 times the Senate has decided to have a trial. And I think what might be historic here is if the Senate decides that they're not going to have a trial, if they're not going to take what the representatives from the House brought over seriously enough to have a conversation about it. Do I think he'll be convicted? Absolutely not. But they should have a trial. TAPPER: Karen. KAREN FINNEY, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think we -- this is a perversion of the Constitution. We do not use our constitution to have policy disagreements. And that's really what this is about. Also, as I said before, this is about distort, distract, divide. This is not about -- this is a distraction from the fact that they couldn't actually get a deal. Many of the things in that clip that he just cited were in the deal that Republicans walked away from. So, this is just more showmanship. TAPPER: This does come at a time when the House GOP is in turmoil. They're united on this for the most part. DUBKE: For the most part. TAPPER: But the House GOP is in turmoil and Speaker Johnson, now a second Republican, Congressman Massie is threatening to join Marjorie Taylor Greene and oust Speaker Johnson. And I'm wondering whether and how you see the Mayorkas impeachment in that context. I mean, was this done basically just to try to unite the party around something? DUBKE: Well, no. I mean -- TAPPER: Not that the border isn't a crisis. DUBKE: No, absolutely not. Earlier, I think others have said, you know, that, you know, Massie and Taylor Greene have said that Johnson's not conservative enough. This has been something that the more conservative wing of the Republican Party has wanted for a while. And under Speaker Johnson -- TAPPER: The impeachment. DUBKE: The impeachment, yes. And under Speaker Johnson, they've moved forward on this. So, what I'm seeing is, you know, individuals picking and choosing what they want him to move forward on and what they don't want him to move forward on. But at the end of the day, the aid for Ukraine, for Israel, for Taiwan, all of those are policies that the majority of the Republican conference wants to move forward. And the speaker is reflecting that. TAPPER: So, Karen, we have a live picture of the Manhattan courthouse where jury selection is running longer than expected. Six jurors have been seated so far. I just want to get your reaction to this moment. We're in selecting jurors -- FINNEY: Yes. TAPPER: -- for the first criminal trial against a former president. I don't know if you -- FINNEY: Yes. TAPPER: -- if I have any sodium pentothal. If I had sodium pentothal and I stuck it in your arm, would you admit that you wished it was for maybe Dan Pfeiffer said, like he said, the more important cases, the January 6 case, as opposed to this one? FINNEY: Sure, but I -- but I will -- TAPPER: Wouldn't even need the sodium pentothal. FINNEY: You didn't need the sodium -- I'll always be honest with you, Jake, but at the same time, I do. And I think that within all these cases, it's important and Democrats haven't yet done this, create one narrative about what do they all tell us about what Donald Trump means for you, the American voter? In my mind, this is the beginning of a pattern we saw that played out in 2020 where Trump was willing to do whatever it took to keep information from the American people when they -- that could be damaging when they were making their decision. And I think if you establish it as a fact pattern in the minds of voters, that becomes, you know, a more interesting conversation than talking about, you know, who he had an affair with, which I think a lot of folks, they're not interested in that part. It's really about what matters to me in my life. TAPPER: Do you -- what do you think? So Dan Pfeiffer, former communications director -- DUBKE: Right. TAPPER: -- for the Biden White House, he was just on, and he said that he thinks anyone saying that these trials aren't bad for Trump is not telling the truth or doesn't read the polls, said of course it's bad for Trump, this is a game of addition, and these trials don't add any votes. What do you think? DUBKE: Well, I can't -- I can't remember another presidential election which we had one of the major candidates sitting in a courtroom and the other having to force to use the short stairs case on Air Force one because of, you know, his aides are afraid that he's not going to be able to make it on the tall staircase. FINNEY: At least he stays away. DUBKE: Well, he's -- TAPPER: You're the little reference. FINNEY: I'm just saying. DUBKE: You really need to be. I'm sure they have video -- FINNEY: I'm just saying. DUBKE: -- that would cause that into -- FINNEY: Not waiting on trial. DUBKE: Look, this was the first trial -- TAPPER: Both of those fellows. DUBKE: This -- TAPPER: -- are prone to nod off every now and then. DUBKE: Yes. Yes. Well -- TAPPER: Maybe one more than the other. But anyway, go on. DUBKE: This is the first -- this was the first indictment. This was the first time that a former president had been indicted. And this is the first trial that we're now coming to the fore. I think most legal experts will say that the D.A. in this instance, really is reaching to find a crime. But this is the start of a number of trials. And to Pfeiffer's (ph) point, you know, I would much rather be on the campaign trail than sitting in a courtroom if I was President Trump. [17:30:26] TAPPER: Fair enough. Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. …