CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024. TENA KOUTOU NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, WE'RE DOING THINGS A BIT DIFFERENTLY. WITH TENSIONS CONTINUING TO INTENSIFY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, MUCH OF OUR SHOW WILL BE DEDICATED TO ONE INTERVIEW. THE WAR IN GAZA HAS NOW BEEN RUNNING FOR MORE THAN SIX MONTHS. THE FIGHTING WAS SPARKED BY THE OCTOBER 7TH ATTACKS, IN WHICH HAMAS KILLED MORE THAN 1300 ISRAELIS. ISRAEL'S MILITARY RESPONSE AND EFFORTS TO TARGET HAMAS HAS CAUSED WIDESPREAD DESTURCTION AND KILLED AN ESTIMATED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GAZANS. OF COURSE, HAMAS IS BACKED BY IRAN; BUT THIS WEEK, THE CONFLICT REACHED A NEW MILESTONE AS IRAN AND ISRAEL EXCHANGED DIRECT ATTACKS. ON THURSDAY, I SAT DOWN IN THE ISRAELI EMBASSY WITH ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO NEW ZEALAND. I BEGAN BY ASKING RAN YAAKOBY ABOUT IRAN'S STRIKE ON ISRAEL. I WAS SURPRISED PERSONALLY... OF THE FACT THAT IRAN ACTED THIS TIME FROM... IRAN'S TERRITORY PER SE. IRAN HAS BEEN ACTING FOR ITS IDEOLOGICAL REASONS FOR OVER FOUR DECADES. AND VIA PROXIES. AND VIA PROXIES, NOT DIRECTLY. THE WEAPONS COME FROM IRAN PER SE, BUT IT'S SHIPPED IN VARIOUS MEANS, ALSO THROUGH EUROPEAN PORTS, TO ITS PROXIES. ITS PROXIES ARE, UNFORTUNATELY, OUR NEIGHBOURS ` THE HEZBOLLAH IN LEBANON; HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD... IN GAZA ` PART OF THEM ALSO IN... THE AREAS OF RAMALLAH, WEST BANK, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY. WE HAVE RECENTLY GOT INTRODUCED TO THE HOUTHIS IN YEMEN, AND THERE ARE A FEW MILITIAS IN IRAQ. WE HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED AN ATTACK THAT IS SO MASSIVE AND DIRECTED BY IRAN. IN A WAY, THE PUPPETEER CAME TO THE FRONT. AS SOMEONE WHO HAS WORKED IN DIPLOMACY FOR MANY YEARS NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IT VIOLATES INTERNATIONAL NORMS FOR A COUNTRY TO BOMB ANOTHER COUNTRY'S DIPLOMATIC QUARTERS? I GUESS IT'S ALL A QUESTION OF 'WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?' IF YOU REFER TO THE BOMBING IN DAMASCUS THAT ISRAEL DID NOT YET ASSUME EVEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR, AND THEN... IT WAS A MEETING OF ONLY MILITARY PERSONNEL, WHICH BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION TURNS ANYTHING, FROM HOSPITAL TO DIPLOMATIC MISSION, INTO A LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGET. IT WASN'T THE CONSULATE. IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT THE PICTURES ` AND PEOPLE TRY TO IGNORE IT ` THE CONSULATE, AS WE SPEAK, STILL STANDS SURROUNDED BY A FENCE. AND THE BUILDING NEXT DOOR OUTSIDE THE PERIMETER THAT WAS RENTED BY THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS IS THE ONE THAT WAS HIT. AND IF PEOPLE WANT TO DWELL INTO THE VIENNA CONVENTION ON DIPLOMATIC RIGHTS, IT SAYS THAT THE HOSTING COUNTRY NEEDS TO PROTECT THE PREMISES OF ANY DIPLOMATIC MISSION. THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T PROTECTED MAY MEAN THAT IT WASN'T A DIPLOMATIC MISSION AND THE RESPONSIBILITY IS OF THE HOSTING COUNTRY ` SYRIA, NOT ISRAEL. THERE'S NOWHERE ` ANY TEXT IN ANY CONVENTION ` ABOUT A THIRD PARTY DURING WAR AIMING AT THE HEADQUARTER OF THE ENEMY. AND I THINK NO ONE WOULD DENY THE FACT THAT IRAN DECLARED ITSELF ALREADY FOUR DECADES AGO AS THE ENEMY OF ISRAEL. AND THE OCTOBER 7 WAS BASICALLY AN IRANIAN OPERATION VIA A PROXY. HOW WOULD ISRAEL RESPOND IF WHAT IT CONSIDERED TO BE ONE OF ITS DIPLOMATIC PREMISES WAS BOMBED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY? IF IT WAS USED FOR PERPETRATING THE KILLING OF OTHER PEOPLE, OR IF IT'S JUST AN INNOCENT, HONEST-TO-GOD DIPLOMATIC PREMISES? THIS IS THE QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CONTEXT, AND THE CONTEXT IS WHAT WAS THIS BUILDING FIRST, HOW IT WAS DECLARED. I DON'T THINK IT WAS A DIPLOMATIC EMBASSY OR CONSULATE OR PREMISES. AND WHAT WAS... IT USED FOR? IT WAS USED AS A HEADQUARTERS OF ONLY THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS THAT BY SOME COUNTRIES LIST IS A TERROR ORGANISATION ENGAGED IN WAR WITH THE WEST. SORRY, TO MY QUESTION, THOUGH ` HOW WOULD ISRAEL REACT IF A PREMISES WHICH IT CONSIDERED TO BE DIPLOMATIC QUARTERS WAS BOMBED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY? I CAN'T TELL YOU. IT DEPENDS ON, AGAIN, THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND WHICH IS THE COUNTRY AND WHAT ARE THE REASONS` ISRAEL WOULD REACT, THOUGH, RIGHT? AND, YES, THERE WOULD BE A REACTION, BUT THE REACTION... NEEDS TO BE LINKED TO... THE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND, AGAIN, I THINK YOU ARE TAKING APPLE AND TRY TO COMPARE IT TO AN ORANGE. IT'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. TAKE US BACK TO OCTOBER 7TH. WHAT DO YOU THINK, REFLECTING ON THE LAST SIX MONTHS, PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL PERHAPS DON'T APPRECIATE ABOUT THE SCALE AND THE HORROR OF THAT ATTACK? I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN. FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT WAS GOING ON ON THE OCTOBER 7, THEY PROBABLY HAVE FOLLOWED THE NEWS AND DWELT A BIT INTO THE PICTURES. MAYBE WE SHOULD BEGIN ON THE FEW HOURS BEFORE. ON THE OCTOBER 6, THERE WAS A CEASEFIRE UPON THE REQUEST OF HAMAS FROM THE LAST CYCLE OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS, WHICH CONTROLS GAZA. ON THE 7TH OF OCTOBER, THIS CEASEFIRE, THAT IN A WAY NUMBED ISRAEL. AND THIS SHOULD BE DEFINITELY INVESTIGATED... POST-WAR. WITH A VERY PLANNED, WELL-PRACTISED... ATTACK, THE NUKHBA FORCES, WHICH IS THE COMMANDER OF HAMAS, PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD, GANGS FROM ALL OVER GAZA ` THEY HAVE WEAPONS ` AND JUST PRIVATE CIVILIANS WHO FOLLOWED... AROUND 1400 PEOPLE WERE BUTCHERED. AND IT'S A MORNING SHOW, SO WE WILL NOT GET DOWN INTO THE DETAILS, BUT... SOME WAS MENTIONED IN INTERNATIONAL MEDIA ` DECAPITATIONS, BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE, RAPES, GANG RAPES, IN TWO DOCUMENTED CASES BY THE UN INVESTIGATION TEAM... TWO CASES OF NECROPHILIA... ON BODIES OF WOMEN. MALES WERE MUTILATED, CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN THE FRONT OF THE PARENTS, PARENTS IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN, IN SO MANY HORRIBLE WAYS OF DEATH TO INSTIL DEATH, TO INSTIL TERROR, WHICH IS WHAT A TERROR GROUP AIMS AT. THIS IS WHAT` TERROR COMES FROM EXACTLY THAT. AND THEN THEY HAVE RETREATED AFTER SOME GUNFIGHTS WITH... MM. ...ISRAELI ARMED POLICE AND SLOWLY THE MILITARY STORMING IN. WITH HUNDREDS OF HOSTAGES THAT WERE TAKEN INDISCRIMINATELY ` NOT ONLY SOLDIERS ` MOSTLY NOT SOLDIERS ` WOMEN, CHILDREN; THERE WERE A FEW HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS; SICK PEOPLE WERE DRAGGED IN THE WHEELCHAIRS; SOME BODIES; SOME INJURED. WE KNOW IT BECAUSE WE FOUND SOME` ONCE WE ENTERED WITH OUR MILITARY, WE FOUND SOME OF THE BODIES THROWN ALONG THE SANDS OF GAZA ON THE WAY TO THE TUNNELS. AND I THINK THE MAJOR SHOCK WAS THAT THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE ATTACKED WERE COMMUNITIES INVOLVED IN PEACEFUL ACTIVITY, NOT ONLY IN THEIR DAILY LIVES ` FARMERS, PEOPLE WHO JUST, YOU KNOW, WANTED THE BIT OF ISOLATION LIVING IN THE NEGEV, IN THE DESERT, ETC, BUT MANY OF WHICH WERE PEACE ACTIVISTS. SOME OF THE PEOPLE MURDERED, SOME OF THE PEOPLE KIDNAPPED, WERE THOSE WHO TOOK PALESTINIANS ` AND WE HAD 20,000 TO 30,000 PALESTINIANS COMING DAILY FROM GAZA TO WORK IN ISRAEL ` TOOK SICK ONES FREE OF CHARGE TO HOSPITALS, STAYED BY THEIR BEDSIDE, DEMONSTRATED AGAINST THE RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL FOR PEACE WITH THE PALESTINIANS. THERE WAS NO MERCY. SOME OF THE VICTIMS AND KIDNAPPED STILL ARE ISRAELI MUSLIMS, BEDOUINS, NEPALESE AND THAI AND FILIPINOS AND OTHER NATIONALS WHO CAME TO TOUR ISRAEL OR ENJOY ISRAEL IN A... IN A PARTY WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE DANCED ` JUST, YOU KNOW, A SUNRISE PARTY. 350 YOUNG PEOPLE WERE BUTCHERED, AND SOME WERE KIDNAPPED. THE SHOCK AND AWE STILL LINGERS, STILL LASTS. AND WHAT SHOCKS MORE IS THE DECLARATION OF THE LEADERSHIP OF HAMAS THAT, GIVEN THE CHANCE, THEY WILL DO A SECOND AND A THIRD AND A FOURTH AND A MILLIONTH ` I'M QUOTING ` OCTOBER 7TH. AND THIS IS I THINK WHAT IS MORE SHOCKING THAN ANYTHING. IS IT SURPRISING? I DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IRAN AND HAMAS HAVE ALWAYS SAID. I'M NOT SURE WE WERE LISTENING VERY CAREFULLY IN THE WEST. AFTER THE BREAK ` GAZA. WHAT IS ISRAEL'S OBJECTIVE? AND HOW MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE MIGHT DIE? WELCOME BACK. IT HAS BEEN A BLOOD-SOAKED SIX MONTHS FOR GAZA, AS ISRAEL HAS RESPONDED TO HAMAS' SURPRISE ATTACK. FOR THE SECOND PART OF OUR INTERVIEW, I ASKED AMBASSADOR RAN YAAKOBY WHAT ISRAEL ACTUALLY WANTS TO ACHIEVE WITH ITS INCURSION. TWO OBJECTIVES WERE DECLARED IMMEDIATELY. ONE IS TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES. I THINK IT'S AN OBLIGATION OF EVERY NATION TO ITS CIVILIANS, SOME OF THEM ` THE MINORITY, BUT THERE WERE SOME SOLDIERS THERE ` TO BRING THEM BACK HOME. PERIOD. THIS IS THE OBLIGATION OF ANY GOVERNMENT. AND WHAT ABOUT HAMAS? AND THE SECOND WAS TO DISMANTLE HAMAS, BECAUSE IF HAMAS DECLARED THEY WILL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND THEY SO GLEEFULLY ` ALL WHAT WE KNOW IS NOT BECAUSE I INVENTED OR READ ABOUT ` I WAS WATCHING CLIPS THAT, BY THE WAY, WE SHOWED HERE THE EMBASSY TO JOURNALISTS WHO CONFIRMED ` SOME WROTE ABOUT IT; NOT ENOUGH, I THINK... I THINK THE ONLY CONCLUSION WAS THAT INSTEAD OF CYCLES AND CYCLES, AND THIS TIME IT WAS MAYBE THE BIGGEST POGROM OF JEWS AND OTHERS SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WE WILL NOT ALLOW IT AGAIN. RIGHT. AND IN ORDER NOT TO ALLOW IT AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO DE-WEAPONISE. I DON'T THINK THE AIM WAS OR IS TO GO TO THE LAST COMBATANT OF HAMAS OR PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD. SEE, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? DE-WEAPONISE THEM IN ORDER TO ALLOW GAZA BE WHAT IT POTENTIALLY CAN BE, WHAT WE TRIED FOR YEARS ` AND MAYBE THIS IS WHAT NUMBED US. WE THOUGHT THAT HAMAS HAVING THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SEWAGE AND FOR RATE... COLLECTING AND ETC, WOULD, UH... FOCUS` ...ON GOVERNANCE RATHER THAN ON WEAPONS. AND PROVING TO THE WORLD THAT THERE IS A CHANCE FOR A PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD. CAN I ASK, THOUGH ` DO YOU ACCEPT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ENTIRELY DESTROY HAMAS? YES. AS YOU MENTIONED, ALMOST 1400 ISRAELIS DIED IN THAT APPALLING ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7. HOW MANY CIVILIANS HAVE DIED IN GAZA FROM ISRAEL'S MILITARY INCURSION? I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THE ONLY NUMBERS DURING THE FOG OF WAR, UH... THERE'S NO ONE REALLY SERIOUS GOING AND COUNTING PEOPLE. WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT AROUND 14,000 COMBATANTS ` WHY DO WE CALL COMBATANTS? BECAUSE THEY DON'T WEAR UNIFORM, AND THEY EMBED THEMSELVES WITHIN A CIVILIAN POPULATION ` WE KNOW THAT 14,000 PEOPLE WHO SHOT AT US, OR AT OUR FORCES, WERE SHOT BACK AND KILLED. AND WE HAVE HUNDREDS, MAYBE NOW THOUSANDS MORE OF PRISONERS THAT ARE UNDER INTERROGATION IN ISRAEL. I UNDERSTAND. SO WHAT WOULD BE YOUR BEST ESTIMATE AS TO THE NUMBER OF CIVILIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED AS A RESULT OF ISRAEL'S MILITARY INCURSION IN GAZA? I DON'T KNOW. MY GUESS AND YOUR GUESS ARE AS GOOD AS ANYONE'S. SO GAZA'S HEALTH` I AM NOT TAKING... THE HAMAS ESTIMATIONS. SO` BECAUSE OUR NUMBERS ` AND I WILL GIVE YOU NAMES OF PEOPLE KILLED ON OUR SIDE` I APPRECIATE THAT. ...OR CAPTURED ` I WILL GIVE YOU THE NAMES. AND NONE OF WHAT I SAW PUBLISHED BY THE 'HEALTH MINISTRY' OF HAMAS SEEMS MORE THAN PROPAGANDA. ALSO, THERE ARE A FEW ARTICLES THAT STATISTICALLY ANALYSE IT. SO, 34,000. AT THE MOMENT, THIS IS WHAT` THIS IS WHAT HAMAS SAYS. THIS IS WHAT GAZA'S HEALTH` SO THE GAZA HEALTH MINISTRY` WE HAVEN'T SEEN NAMES. THERE ARE NO LISTS. ...SAYS 34,000. YES. IT SAYS THAT 70% OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED ARE EITHER WOMEN OR CHILDREN, THAT ALMOST 13,000 CHILDREN HAVE DIED IN GAZA. DO CHILDREN IN GAZA DESERVE TO DIE? NO. DO CHILDREN IN ISRAEL DESERVE TO DIE? NO. SO CHILDREN DON'T DESERVE TO DIE. SO HOW CAN`? NOW, THE QUESTION IS` NO, NO, NO. SORRY, NO, HERE'S THE QUESTION` FROM THE DINOSAURS' TIME UNTIL TODAY` I'LL ASK THE QUESTIONS. SORRY, AMBASSADOR. WHAT WAS THE WAR IN WHICH CHILDREN DID NOT DIE? AMBASSADOR, SO... SO 1400 ISRAELIS WERE BUTCHERED ON OCTOBER 7TH. BY THE BEST ESTIMATE WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT, 13,000 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA. MM-HM. HOW CAN ISRAEL POSSIBLY JUSTIFY A RESPONSE THAT KILLS 13,000 CHILDREN? ISRAEL OPERATES BY THE INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE INTERNATIONALLY ACCEPTED CONVENTIONS, INCLUDING ON THE RULES OF COMBAT AND RULES OF WAR. NATIONS SET AND PHRASED THOSE CONDITIONS. ON OUR SIDE, THERE ARE LAWYERS ` MILITARY LAWYERS ` WHO SIT WITH THE UNITS BEFORE AND AFTER AND DURING EACH OPERATION, AND SOMETIMES, THEY STOP THE OPERATION. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN EACH OPERATION? I CANNOT TELL YOU. I DON'T THINK ANYONE CAN TELL YOU DURING THE WAR... THE ESTIMATES ARE 13,000. ...AND YOU DON'T NEED TO JUSTIFY` BY THE WAY, YOU DON'T NEED TO JUSTIFY, BY INTERNATIONAL LAW OR BY THE RULES OF PROPORTIONALITY, THAT PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND, AND THEY TAKE PROPORTIONALITY AS YOU WOULD TAKE IT IN A SPORTS MATCH, IN A RUGBY GAME. ARE WE... TRYING TO COMPARE? SHOULD WE... TRY TO LOCATE A PARTY IN GAZA AND GANG RAPE AND BUTCHER EXACTLY 350 PARTYGOERS? ARE WE SUPPOSED TO ENTER HOMES AND GANG RAPE... THE SAME NUMBER OF WOMEN IN ISRAEL AND CHILDREN WHO WERE RAPED. SO HOW FAR`? NO, THE PROPORTIONALITY IS... WHAT DAMAGE AND WHAT CASUALTIES CAN YOU PREVENT BY A MILITARY ACTION? AND THIS IS DOWN TO... A, THE MILITARY COMMANDER ON THE GROUND ` HE KNOWS WHAT THREATENS HIM ` AND TO HIS COMMANDERS WHO KNOW WHAT IS THE THREAT IF THIS MILITARY ACTION OR ACTIVITY WILL NOT HAPPEN. I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YOU CAN'T DO AN EXACT LIKE-FOR-LIKE` ABSOLUTELY. ...WHEN IT COMES TO PROPORTIONALITY, BUT YOU CAN STILL CONSIDER THOSE FUNDAMENTAL NUMBERS AND CONSIDER IT IN A MORAL CONTEXT. BY THE BEST NUMBERS WE HAVE, FOR EVERY ISRAELI WHO WAS BUTCHERED ON OCTOBER 7TH, MORE THAN 10 CHILDREN HAVE DIED IN GAZA. HOW FAR DO YOU BELIEVE ISRAEL'S MORAL JUSTIFICATION EXTENDS? HOW MANY CHILDREN WOULD BE TOO MANY CHILDREN? I DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS THE WAY TO CALCULATE... THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE IN WAR. THE QUESTION IS, HOW MANY CHILDREN... ON BOTH SIDES WILL HAVE BEEN SAVED AT THE ENDGAME? HOW MANY CHILDREN ` AND CIVILIANS ` ON BOTH SIDES? HOW MANY CHILDREN ON THE ISRAELI SIDE AND CIVILIANS ARE SAVED BY NOT ALLOWING HAMAS TO REPEAT IT? OR ARE WE SIMPLY... DONE AND OVER WITH, AND WE HAVE TO ALLOW THIS... CREATURE FROM HELL COME AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN? BECAUSE THIS CREATURE USES CIVILIAN POPULATION ON BOTH SIDES. IT'S A DOUBLE WAR CRIME ` SHOOTING FROM WITHIN CIVILIAN POPULATION ON TO CIVILIAN POPULATION. AND THIS METHOD NEEDS TO STOP NOW` YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HUMAN SHIELDS, RIGHT? YES. IF NO ONE ELSE` BY THE WAY, ISRAEL WAITED THREE WEEKS. NO ARMY IN THE WORLD HAS GIVEN SO MANY WARNINGS, LEAFLETS AND SMS MESSAGES, ETC, TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE COMBAT ZONE. IF HAMAS DID NOT ALLOW THEM, IT'S JUST A PROOF OF ITS USING ITS OWN CITIZENS. HOW MANY CITIZENS IN GAZA WERE INVITED TO THE 750KM OF TUNNELS IN GAZA BY HAMAS? SO, AMBASSADOR... IF WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THE LIVES THAT WILL BE SAVED IN THE FUTURE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE JUSTIFICATIONS FOR ISRAEL'S INCURSION, ARE YOU SAYING THAT UNDER THAT THINKING, ISRAEL WOULD THEORETICALLY BE JUSTIFIED IN KILLING EVERY CHILD IN GAZA IF ULTIMATELY THAT DESTROYED HAMAS? ABSOLUTELY NOT. SO WHERE IS THE LINE? THE LINE IS NOT EVEN` HOW FAR DOES... HOW FAR DOES THE MORAL JUSTIFICATION EXTEND? JACK... LET'S AGREE ON ONE THING. ONCE HAMAS LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS, MORE CHILDREN WILL BE SAVED ON BOTH SIDES ` MORE CIVILIANS ` AND THE REGION AT LARGE WILL CALM DOWN. EVERYTHING WILL DE-ESCALATE. I WILL AGREE` I WILL AGREE` SO, I THINK THE BURDEN` THE BURDEN LIES ON` I WILL AGREE WITH THAT POINT IF YOU WILL AGREE WITH MINE, AND THAT IS THAT ISRAEL STILL HAS AGENCY. YES, HAMAS MIGHT USE THE CIVILIAN POPULATION FOR BARBARIC PURPOSES. MM-HM. IT MIGHT SHELTER WITHIN CIVILIAN COMMUNITIES. BUT ULTIMATELY, ISRAEL IS STILL THE ONE HITTING THE BUTTON, DECIDING TO DISCHARGE A 2000-POUND BOMB IN ONE OF THE MOST DENSELY POPULATED COMMUNITIES IN THE WORLD. IT IS STILL AN ISRAELI MUNITION THAT IS BLOWING APART A CHILD'S BODY, TEARING LIMBS OFF IT, THAT IS DESTROYING BUILDINGS, THAT IS CRUSHING PEOPLE. ISRAEL HAS AGENCY IN THESE DECISIONS. ABSOLUTELY. AND THOSE DECISIONS ARE EXAMINED BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER BY LEGAL EXPERTS WHO ARE SPECIALISED IN INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE LAW OF WARFARE. AND YOU HAVE TO ALWAYS CONSIDER... THE RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENCE, AND WE CLAIM THIS IS PART OF OUR RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENCE. THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KILL EVERYONE IS DEFINITELY WRONG. AND IT'S NOT OUR IDEA, BUT THE IDEA THAT` SO WHY HAVE YOU KILLED SO MANY THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE? WHY? BECAUSE FOR THE REASON HAMAS IS HIDING UNDER THEM, NOT EVEN AMONG THEM, SOMETIMES. BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE... SCHOOLS` I UNDERSTAND. ...COMMUNITY CENTRES TO SHOOT ROCKETS FROM. NOW, TO STOP THOSE ROCKETS` IT'S BARBARIC. IT'S BARBARIC. ...DO WE HAVE OR DON'T WE HAVE... IN ORDER TO STOP ROCKETS FROM BEING SHOT FROM A SCHOOL, A UN COMPOUND, TO SHOOT BACK? OR ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DIE? A UN COMPOUND, TO SHOOT BACK, OR ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DIE? IT WILL MAKE THE WORLD CALM WHEN WE DIE? NO ONE IS DEFENDING` NO. I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS DEFENDING THEE USE OF HUMAN SHIELDS. SO, IT'S NOT THE CASUALTIES. BY THE WAY, IN URBAN WARFARE, WHICH IS A VERY SPECIAL KIND OF WARFARE` SORRY, AMBASSADOR, CAN I JUST ASK A QUESTION? JUST AS A MORAL EXERCISE, WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE HUMAN SHIELDS ISSUE ` AGAIN, NO ONE... IS FORGIVING HAMAS' ACTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY EMBED THEMSELVES WITHIN CIVILIAN POPULATIONS, BUT JUST AS A MORAL EXERCISE HERE, IF A GUNMAN WERE TO TAKE... SOMEONE IMPORTANT TO YOU ` A CHILD THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO YOU ` AND HOLD A GUN TO THEIR HEAD, THE AUTHORITIES RESPONDED BY SHOOTING DEAD BOTH THE GUNMAN AND THE CHILD, AND WHEN YOU ASK THEM, THEY SAID, 'WELL, IT WAS A HUMAN SHIELD,' WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT RESPONSE? IF THIS IS WHAT THE BEST TACTICAL OPTION WOULD BE OF THE COMMANDER ON THE GROUND? UNFORTUNATELY, YES. IF YOUR LOVED ONE WAS KILLED? YES. AS AN EX-SOLDIER, I CAN TELL YOU THE SPLIT SECOND IN WHICH YOU SAVE LIFE OR LOSE LIFE IS SOMETHING NONE OF US CAN, HERE IN THIS AIR-CONDITIONED ROOM, EVEN GET INTO. AND THE CONCEPT OF WHAT YOU ARE SAVING AND PROTECTING ` YOUR NATION, YOUR PEOPLE ` IS BIGGER THAN YOUR OWN OR THE OWN OF THE OTHER SIDE. AT THE END, WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT ARE WE FOR? ARE WE FOR THOSE MONSTERS WHO HIDE BEHIND CIVILIANS? BY THE WAY, CIVILIANS WHO ELECTED THEM. HAMAS WON ELECTIONS IN 2006 IN GAZA. SO 18 YEARS AGO, THERE HAVE BEEN NO ELECTIONS SINCE. THEY DIDN'T WIN A MAJORITY` AND YOU BLAME ISRAEL? THEY WON A PLURALITY OF THE VOTE. NO. I'M MERELY SAYING` THEY ALSO THREW THE OPPOSITION OF ROOFTOPS, AND ISRAEL ASSISTED POLITICIANS WHO WANTED TO ESCAPE TO RAMALLAH. IT'S HARDLY A THRIVING DEMOCRACY. SO WHAT AGENCY DOES THE CHILD HAVE, THOUGH? STILL TODAY, BY THE WAY, THEY HAVE 85% OF SUPPORT FOR THE OCTOBER 7TH. DO CHILDREN IN GAZA VOTE FOR HAMAS? NO. DID CHILDREN IN ISRAEL VOTE TO BE RAPED BY HAMAS? NO, OF COURSE NOT. BUT THE POINT IS THAT UNLESS` I THINK WE ARE GETTING DOWN TO THE DETAILS OF THE HORRORS OF WAR. YEAH. WHICH ARE HORRIBLE, BUT... EXCEPT THAT ISRAEL HOLDS ITSELF TO A HIGHER MORAL STANDARD THAN HAMAS. YES, AND THIS IS WHY WE WORK WITH LEGAL ADVICE. RIGHT. AND THIS IS WHY WE CHOOSE TO... UNTIL NOW, IT'S AROUND 620, 630. AND I'M APOLOGISING THAT BY THE TIME IT WILL BE ON AIR, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY THE NUMBER OF SOLDIERS DYING IN ORDER TO... NOT HURT CIVILIANS, IN ORDER TO... ENTER BY FOOT. WE COULD HAVE, IN 24 HOURS, FLATTENED GAZA. SO ALL THOSE WHO BLAME ISRAEL TO INDISCRIMINATELY ATTACK OR TO USE THE WRONG WEAPONS OR TO, YOU KNOW, NOT CONSIDER CIVILIAN LIVES, ARE IGNORING THE FACT THAT ISRAEL HAS ACTED, IN THIS CASE OF... ASYMMETRIC URBAN WARFARE, I WOULD CLAIM, IN THE MOST MORAL WAY, IN THE MOST 'MILITARY' ETHICAL WAY. IT'S NOT A LESSON ON ETHICS IN UNIVERSITY. AND IF YOU WILL COMPARE IT, AND THERE ARE EVEN ARTICLES SUPPORTING THIS CLAIM, TO ANY OTHER MODERN... URBAN WARFARE IN THE WORLD, THE RATIO OF CIVILIANS PER COMBATANTS WHO HAVE BEEN HIT IN THIS WAR IS THE SMALLER ` NOT THE BIGGER, AND NOT IN THE MEDIUM ` IT'S THE SMALLER RATIO IN FAVOUR OF COMBATANTS DYING. SO IF ISRAEL HAS ACTED SO RESPONSIBLY, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FAMINE? I DON'T THINK THERE IS FAMINE AT LARGE. THERE ARE A FEW POCKETS. A FEW POCKETS OF FAMINE? YES. I CAN SHOW YOU CLIPS AND THE VIDEOS OF THE MARKETS IN SOUTH GAZA, IN NORTH GAZA, WHERE THE IDF HAS ASKED PEOPLE TO EVACUATE. THE UN IS INCAPABLE, SIMPLY INCAPABLE. THERE ARE, AS WE SPEAK NOW, AND MAYBE ON THE WEEKEND, THERE WILL BE MORE THERE, OVER 700 TRUCKS IN GAZA, PARKED WITHIN GAZA, THAT ISRAEL HAS AUTHORISED, WITH FOOD WAITING FOR THE UN TO DISPERSE. THE UN IS INCAPABLE OF DISPERSING THIS FOOD IN THE SAME RHYTHM IT HAS ENTERED, AND IT HAS DOUBLED ITSELF FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, BECAUSE IT'S A LEARNING CYCLE. PERHAPS AID WORKERS DON'T WANT TO BE IN GAZA BECAUSE THEY DON'T TRUST THEY WON'T BE BOMBED BY THE IDF. WE HAD ONLY ONE CASE IN WHICH IN WHICH WE MADE A MISTAKE. WE HAD ONLY ONE CASE IN WHICH` IN WHICH WE MADE A MISTAKE. WE ADMITTED IT IMMEDIATELY AFTER INVESTIGATION AND... THE SECOND DAY AFTER, A JOINT COMMAND FOR THE... AID AGENCIES, THE IDF AND THE UN WAS CONSTRUCTED ON GROUND TO COORDINATE THOSE CONVOYS. THERE IS NO BOOK THAT I KNOW OF WHERE YOU CAN GET INSTRUCTIONS OR A RECIPE FOR SUCH A WAR. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE WORLD HAS ENCOUNTERED IT, AND ISRAEL IS THE FIRST TO GET IT. SO WE ARE LEARNING ON THE GO, AND WE ARE IMPROVING, AND WE ARE LEARNING FROM MISTAKES. SHOW ME A MILITARY OR A NATION THAT DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES REQUIRING INVESTIGATION AND LEARNING ABOUT IT. SO YOU'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE EFFORTS THAT ISRAEL GOES TO TO UPHOLD INTERNATIONAL LAW THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS INTERVIEW. HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE RULED IT, QUOTE, 'PLAUSIBLE' THAT ISRAEL'S ACTS COULD AMOUNT TO GENOCIDE? PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE LEGAL TERMS. WHAT IS PLAUSIBLE IN LEGAL TERMS? PLAUSIBLE IS THAT IF... THINGS WILL NOT... PROCEED IN A CERTAIN WAY, THERE'S A PROBABILITY, IT IS PLAUSIBLE, THAT SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN. SOUTH AFRICA, BY THE WAY, THAT DID NOT CONDEMN HAMAS FOR THE OCTOBER 7TH, THAT BLAMED ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 8TH PUBLICLY FOR THE OCTOBER 7TH EVENT, WENT TO THE ICJ. THE ICJ WAS ASKED TO ORDER IMMEDIATELY STOP OF THE WAR AND IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE. IT DID NOT SO BECAUSE IT DID NOT FIND THAT ISRAEL IS VIOLATING ANY REGULATION, ANY CONVENTION. BUT IT DID FIND IT PLAUSIBLE THAT ISRAEL'S ACTS AMOUNT TO GENOCIDE. YES, BECAUSE IT'S NOT EVEN THE RESULT. THE CASE WILL GO ON MAYBE FOR MONTHS. THE RESULT OF THE HEARING IS THAT THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR ISRAEL TO CEASE. THERE IS A PLAUSIBLE ` OF COURSE, EVERY WAR HAS A PLAUSIBILITY THERE IS A PLAUSIBLE` OF COURSE, EVERY WAR HAS A PLAUSIBILITY OF A CERTAIN ACT IN INTERNATIONAL CRIMES ` AND THE ONLY REQUEST THAT CAME OUT UNTIL NOW FROM THE ICJ FOLLOWING THE SOUTH AFRICAN CLAIM, WAS TO ASK ISRAEL TO DO EVERYTHING NOT TO COMMIT A GENOCIDE AND TO ALLOW THE INVESTIGATION OR THE EXAMINATION OF ITS ACTIONS, WHICH IT'S DONE. THE COURT ALSO ASKED ISRAEL TO, QUOTE, 'TAKE IMMEDIATE AND EFFECTIVE MEASURES TO ENABLE THE PROVISION 'OF URGENTLY NEEDED BASIC SUPPLIES AND HUMANITARIAN AID.' THAT WAS TWO MONTHS AGO. USAID SAYS THE FAMINE HAS STARTED SINCE THEN, SO CLEARLY ISRAEL HAS NOT HELD UP. ON THE DAY OF THE ICJ... INTERIM RULING, THERE WERE ABOUT 200-PLUS TRUCKS COMING DAILY INTO THE GAZA. YESTERDAY, I JUST READ THE STATISTICS ` 510 TRUCKS ENTERED GAZA. IT'S NOT ENOUGH, THOUGH, IS IT? NO, SO... IF THERE'S STILL FAMINE IN PARTS OF GAZA... AS I SAID, THERE'S NO BOOK TO RUN SUCH A CASE. BOATS FILLED WITH... AID ARE COMING FROM CYPRUS BECAUSE WE HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE GROUND WAYS FOR SOME PARTS OF GAZA ARE DIFFICULT. ABOUT 60% OF CONVOYS ARE BEING HIJACKED BY HAMAS, LOCAL FORCES, GANGS, ETC. THEY TRADE THIS FOOD, THEY SELL THE FREE FOOD. BY THE WAY, THEY ALSO THROW IT WHEN IT EXPIRES, INSTEAD OF GIVING IT ON TIME TO THE POPULATION. BECAUSE WHAT THEY CANNOT SELL, THEY DON'T GIVE. SO YOU HAVE THE PORT. YOU HAVE THE U.S. AIRDROPS` YOU HAVE THE AERIAL. ISRAEL HAS OPENED` WE'VE OPENED TWO MORE PASSAGES. YEAH, RIGHT. AGAIN, WE ARE TRYING TO` AND A FAMINE IS STILL UNDERWAY. I DISAGREE. WELL, THIS IS FROM USAID. A SIX MONTH OF FAMINE WOULD HAVE PRODUCED PEOPLE DYING FROM FAMINE. IT'S LIKE THE STORY OF GENOCIDE. THE POPULATION OF` THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION AROUND THE WORLD AND IN GAZA, JUDEA, SAMARIA, HAS... TREMENDOUSLY INCREASED SINCE THE ERECTION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL '48 OR SINCE THE '67 WAR. IS THIS A GENOCIDE? THEN WE ARE REALLY FAILING AT THIS GENOCIDE. AS THE ISRAELI DEFENCE FORCE MULLS AN INCURSION INTO RAFAH, THERE IS A CENTRAL QUESTION AT THE HEART OF THEIR MILITARY STRATEGY ` WHAT WILL THOUSANDS MORE CIVILIANS' DEATHS DO TO THE PROSPECT OF PEACE? HALF OF GAZA'S POPULATION ARE CHILDREN. HOW DO YOU THINK THE CHILDREN AND SURVIVING FAMILY MEMBERS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA OVER THE LAST SIX MONTHS ARE LIKELY TO FEEL ABOUT ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE? ABOUT ISRAEL? MM. I GUESS IT WILL NOT BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY FELT UNTIL NOW. THEY WERE FED AND EDUCATED TO HATE. EXCEPT THAT THEY'VE BEEN BOMBED NOW. ABOUT THE FUTURE ` YOU ASKED ABOUT TWO THINGS ` ISRAEL AND THE FUTURE. HOW WILL THEY FEEL? ABOUT ISRAEL, I THINK IT WILL NOT CHANGE MUCH. THIS IS WHY I DON'T THINK ISRAEL SHOULD STAY THERE FOR THE LONG TERM. I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD FEEL MORE ASSURED ABOUT THE FUTURE. WHAT CAN ASSURE THEM ABOUT THE FUTURE? NOT AN ISRAELI PRESENCE ` MAYBE ISRAELI HELP, AND WE ARE A WORLD FAMOUS FOR OUR TECHNOLOGIES, ETC. WE HAD SOME PLANS FOR A TRAIN STATION, DISTILLATION ` WATER DISTILLATION ` ELECTRICITY PLANTS AND OTHER THINGS IN GAZA. UNFORTUNATELY, EVERYTHING WENT DOWN UNDER. BUT ABSOLUTELY VITAL TO THE FUTURE IS SOMEHOW BREAKING THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE. YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. OK. HOW DO WE DO THAT? SO, I JUST I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND ` WHY WON'T ISRAEL'S RESPONSE AND APPROXIMATELY 34,000 DEATHS, APPROXIMATELY 13,000 CHILDREN'S DEATHS, ULTIMATELY LEAD TO MORE TERRORISM AGAINST ISRAEL. BECAUSE THE... RADICAL ELEMENTS NEED TO BE REPLACED BY... THOSE WHO HAVE MANAGED TO A, ACCEPT THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WITH ISRAEL, BECAUSE THE CLAIM THAT ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST WILL ALWAYS CREATE THE NEXT GENERATION TRYING TO ERASE ISRAEL. SURE. AGAIN, THOUGH, TO MY QUESTION ` HOW WILL BOMBING GAZA STOP PEOPLE FROM BECOMING RADICALISED IN THE FUTURE? IF YOU ARE` JUST IMAGINE FOR A MOMENT YOU ARE A CHILD` WE'RE NOT BOMBING GAZA. YOU HAVE SEEN DESTRUCTION FROM ISRAELI MUNITIONS, YOU HAVE SEEN FAMILY MEMBERS ` INNOCENT FAMILY MEMBERS ` KILLED, WHY WOULDN'T YOU BECOME RADICALISED? CAN I SHARE A PERSONAL STORY? IF YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION, PLEASE, AMBASSADOR. IT WAS... 2022 THAT I WAS SITTING IN A BAR IN JERUSALEM. A SUICIDE` PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBER ENTERED, EXPLODED THEMSELF, KILLING 12 PEOPLE, INJURING MANY, INCLUDING THEM MYSELF. I LOST TWO FRIENDS. WHY DID IT NOT MAKE ME HATE THE PALESTINIANS FOREVER? WHY DID IT EVEN ENCOURAGE ME PURSUING CONFLICT RESOLUTION, DIPLOMACY, AND THE PROMOTION OF REGIONAL PEACE? BECAUSE VIOLENCE IS NOT THE ANSWER. BECAUSE HATE ` HATE AND THE KILLING OF YOUR FRIENDS ` CAN LEAD YOU TO TWO THINGS, OR MAYBE MORE. BUT IF YOU ARE NOT INDIFFERENT, EITHER HATE OR THINK OF HOW TO RESOLVE THE CONFLICT. AND I HOPE THAT WITH... MODERATE FORCES IN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, INCLUDING GAZA, AND WE SPEAK NOT OF AMERICANS OR KIWIS OR ISRAELIS, BUT OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM ARAB MODERATE COUNTRIES WHO WILL ENTER AND DO SOME ORDER IN THE PLACE, THE CHILDREN WILL SEE THAT YOU CAN BE STILL ARAB, MUSLIM AND LIVE ALONG THE JEWISH STATE. BUT IF YOU ARE OBSESSED... WITH THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE, OF COURSE, THIS WILL LEAD TO MORE. AND IN ORDER FOR IT NOT TO LEAD TO MORE, WE HAVE TO DE-WEAPONISE... THIS FUTURE GENERATION, BECAUSE MORE GANGS AND MORE ISLAMIC PROXIES OF IRAN DEFINITELY WILL NOT LEAD TO A BETTER FUTURE FOR GAZA. IT SOUNDS LIKE AN AWFUL AND TRAUMATIC THING TO HAVE LIVED THROUGH, SO I'M SORRY FOR YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THAT. WHATEVER DOESN'T KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER. THAT BEING SAID, THOUGH, YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T HATE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. ABSOLUTELY NOT. BUT DO YOU HATE PALESTINIAN EXTREMISTS, BE THEY HAMAS...? I DON'T HATE. I UNDERSTAND NOW EVEN MORE THAT... I CANNOT ALLOW LIVING SIDE BY SIDE WITH THIS VICIOUS... BEAST. BECAUSE` YOU DON'T HATE, BUT YOU CALL THEM A VICIOUS BEAST? OF COURSE. BECAUSE TRYING TO APPEASE THE BEAST ONLY NUMBS ME. BUT THE POINT IS THAT IF 36,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA` IT WAS 34,000 LAST TIME YOU SAY. BUT IT'S OK. HAMAS DOES THE SAME. THANK YOU. THEY INCREASE EVERY TIME. IF IT WAS 34,000 PEOPLE KILLED IN GAZA, CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THAT BREAKS THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE FOR THE FUTURE? AGAIN. I DON'T GO TOO FAR. HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR, IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR? AND STILL, EUROPE IS UNITED. YOU CAN OVERCOME DIFFERENCES. YOU CAN OVERCOME` BUT THERE'S WAR IN EUROPE. ...FATALITIES. YES, BUT YOU WANT TO TALK ALSO ABOUT THE RUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN WAR? NO, BUT EUROPE IS NOT UNITED. THERE IS WAR. THERE IS THE EUROPEAN UNION, BESIDES THE BRITS WHO MADE THEIR OWN DECISION AND SPLIT UP` THE VICTORS OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR ARE CURRENTLY` ABSOLUTELY. ...HAVING A PROXY OF SORTS. YES, BUT THE GERMANS AND THE FRENCH ARE CELEBRATING THE ELYSEE EVERY YEAR, SO... YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT OTHER EXAMPLES AND UNDERSTAND THAT... VIOLENCE IS NOT THE END MEAN. ISRAEL DOES NOT BOMB GAZA IN ORDER TO BOMB GAZA. ISRAEL DID NOT WAKE UP ON THE 7TH OCTOBER AND SAY, 'GUYS, LET'S BOMB GAZA.' NO. BUT ISRAEL IS TARGETING... ITS ENEMIES, AND THOSE ENEMIES HAPPEN TO BE HIDING BEHIND CIVILIANS NOW. IF YOU DON'T HIT THEM NOW, YOU WILL HAVE TO HIT MANY MORE IN THE FUTURE, AND AFTER MORE PEOPLE WILL BE HEARD ALSO IN ISRAEL. IT STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN` DOESN'T ANSWER MY FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION. MY FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS WHY WILL A CHILD WHERE THEY HAVE INNOCENT FAMILY MEMBERS KILLED BY ISRAELI MUNITIONS WHO SURVIVES AN EXPERIENCE WHEREBY THEIR ENTIRE COMMUNITY IS DESTROYED, WHERE THEY HAVE INNOCENT FAMILY MEMBERS KILLED BY ISRAELI MUNITIONS WHY WILL THEY NOT HATE ISRAEL IN THE FUTURE? AND I THINK THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION THAT REMAINS UNANSWERED. I'VE DONE SO. I HAVE A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS` LET'S LEAVE IT UNANSWERED BECAUSE, I... I KNOW CHILDREN, INCLUDING MY MOTHER WHO IS A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR WHO MANAGED TO GROW OUT OF HER PAINS AND ANGUISH AND LIVE A FULL LIFE` SHE DIDN'T HAVE A NAZI STATE` ...AND MAKE PEACE` ...WHICH SHE WAS LIVING NEXT DOOR TO ANY MORE, DID SHE? SHE CHOSE NOT TO, BUT MANY JEWS CHOSE TO LIVE` BUT THERE WAS NOT A NAZI STATE THAT EXISTED AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR. BUT THERE WAS STILL GERMANY. AND THERE WILL BE GAZA. GAZA WILL EXIST. I HOPE SO. I GUESS SO. SO REPORTING THIS WEEK SHOWS THAT ISRAEL HAS SPED UP SETTLEMENT BUILDING IN EAST JERUSALEM SINCE THE GAZA WAR BEGAN. HOW DO YOU THINK THE CONTINUED SETTLEMENT EXPANSIONS POTENTIALLY UNDERMINE PROSPECTS FOR PEACE IN THE FUTURE? I DON'T SEE IT AS UNDERMINING. THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW ATTEMPTS TO NEGOTIATE OVER THAT ` PROCESSES ON THE GROUND AND DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTS. BY THE WAY, THE SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY STARTED WITH THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL. IF YOU REMEMBER YITZHAK RABIN AND SHIMON PERES, LEVI ESHKOL BEFORE THEM. IT'S NOT AN INVENTION OF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT. ARE SETTLEMENTS IN THE INTEREST OF PEACE, EXPANDING SETTLEMENTS IN THE INTERESTS OF PEACE? SETTLEMENTS ARE NOT A HINDRANCE TO PEACE, BECAUSE SOME OF THE... PACKAGES DISCUSSED WERE ALSO TERRITORIES INSIDE ISRAEL AS REPLACEMENT TO TERRITORIES ON WHICH SETTLEMENTS HAVE BEEN BUILT. WE MAY EVEN... BE ABLE TO CONNECT THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING NOW AND HAPPENED IN '48 AND LATER IN '67. YOU CAN'T EXPECT... MM. ...TO ENGAGE IN WAR, WHICH WAS NOT DECLARED BY ISRAEL ` BY ARAB MILITARIES IN THE CASE OF '48, IN THE CASE OF '67; BY HAMAS AND IRAN BEHIND IT IN THE CASE OF 2023 ` AND COME OUT... LOSING, BUT WINNING. EITHER YOU LOSE, EITHER YOU WIN. THAT'S THE GAMBLE YOU TAKE WHEN YOU START A WAR. YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IN SOME SORT OF, UM... PEACEFUL FUTURE. WHY WON'T YOU SUPPORT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY'S PUSH FOR FULL MEMBER STATUS AT THE UNITED NATIONS? THERE ARE STAGES... IN LIFE AND ALSO IN THE LIFE OF A NATION. FIRST YOU HAVE TO HAVE A STATE WITH DEFINED BORDERS, DEFINED... GOVERNMENT, PARLIAMENT, POLICE, RIGHTS. YOU HAVE TO DEFINE YOURSELF AS A DEMOCRACY, MONARCHY, WHATEVER. AND THEN YOU HAVE TO BE RECOGNISED BY THE OTHERS FOR WHAT YOU ARE. WHAT ARE THE PALESTINIAN`? WHAT IS THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY OR STATE OR WHATEVER YOU MAY CALL IT? I THINK IT'S PUTTING THE CARRIAGE BEFORE THE HORSES. WHAT HAVE YOU MADE OF NEW ZEALAND'S RESPONSE TO THE EVENTS OF THE LAST SIX MONTHS? WELL, NEW ZEALAND HAVE CONDEMNED BOTH THE ATTACKING OF THE HAMAS ON THE OCTOBER 7TH, BOTH THE ATTACK BY IRAN. I THINK NEW ZEALAND DEFINITELY BELONGS TO THE LIKE-MINDED WESTERN-STYLE DEMOCRACIES. NEW ZEALAND SENT A SMALL COMPONENT, BUT STILL SIX REPRESENTATIVES TO THE COALITION FIGHTING THE HOUTHIS IN THE HIJACKING OF SEAS` OF SHIPS ON THE HIGH SEAS. I THINK NEW ZEALAND IS ON THE RIGHT PATH. I WOULD HAVE LOVED NEW ZEALAND TO... BE FASTER ON SOME TRACKS. IT TOOK NEW ZEALAND A WHILE TO DESIGNATE HAMAS AS A TERROR MOVEMENT IN ITS ENTIRETY. AND NEW ZEALAND STILL KEEPS THIS DISTINCTION ABOUT HEZBOLLAH. THE MILITARY WING IS TERRORISTIC. THE POLITICAL WING IS... I DON'T APPRECIATE THAT. LIKE, YOU KNOW, MOST BIRDS ` MAYBE NOT THE NATIONAL BIRD HERE, BUT MOST BIRDS NEED TWO WINGS TO FLY. SO THE MILITARY WING AND THE POLITICAL WING ARE ONE. YOUR MILITARY GETS ORDERS FROM THE POLITICIANS, I HOPE. OUR MILITARY TOO. AND THE QUESTION OF THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS ` AND WE SEE WHAT THEY DO IN THE WORLD... DO YOU WANT NEW ZEALAND TO CHANGE ITS DESIGNATIONS FOR THE IRANIAN REVOLUTIONARY GUARD OR SIMILAR? YES. IT'S ABOUT TIME. WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN? LIKE WITH HAMAS. LIKE SHOULD HAPPEN WITH HEZBOLLAH. I THINK THAT NEW ZEALAND SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THE REVOLUTIONARY IRANIAN GUARDS AS WHAT THEY ARE ` THE INSTIGATOR OF A LOT OF TROUBLE, NOT ONLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. THAT'S ONE. THE OTHER THING IS SANCTIONS. THE WORLD HAS FORGOTTEN TO SANCTION IRAN. WE DON'T HAVE AN EMBASSY IN IRAN. WE HAD UNTIL '79 ` THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION. NEW ZEALAND DOES. NEW ZEALAND DOES, AND ONE OF THE BIGGEST. I WAS JUST TOLD THAT IT'S ONE OF THE TWO BIGGEST EMBASSIES YOU HAVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. YOU DON'T HAVE AN EMBASSY IN ISRAEL, IN THE ONLY DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND I HOPE WE CAN AGREE ON THAT ` THAT ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRACY. NOW` WE'VE PROVEN IT IN FOUR YEARS, FIVE ELECTION CAMPAIGNS. YOU CAN'T BEAT THAT DEMOCRACY. I KNOW THERE ARE CALLS HERE TO NOT TAKE SIDES. THOSE TIMES ARE OVER. NEW ZEALAND NEEDS TO TAKE A SIDE. ARE THEY WITH THE LIKE-MINDED OR NOT? ARE YOU WITH LIKE-MINDED OR NOT? ARE YOU WITH THE COALITION OR NOT? AND TO WHAT EXTENT? THIS IS AN INTERNAL DECISION, BUT SITTING ON THE FENCE WHEN IT COMES TO WORLD PEACE ` AND IT'S NOT ISRAEL THAT DENIES THE WORLD FROM ITS PEACE. WE CAN JUST MAKE ` YOU WANTED TO DO WITH ME SOME MENTAL GAMES ` A LITTLE MENTAL GAME. ISRAEL PUTS DOWN ITS ARMS. WHAT'S THE FUTURE FOR ISRAEL? PROBABLY ANNIHILATION. THE PALESTINIAN ORGANISATIONS AND IRAN'S PROXY LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS. WHAT'S THE FUTURE FOR THEM? PROBABLY, WE GET CLOSER TO A REGIONAL PEACE AND STABILITY, AND NEW ZEALAND NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT SOUNDS LIKE THE DIME HAS NOT HIT THE GROUND YET HERE. ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO NZ, RAN YAAKOBY. A MINOR CORRECTION ` AMBASSADOR YAAKOBY MISSPOKE WHEN HE SAID HE WAS CAUGHT IN A SUICIDE BOMBING IN 2022; THAT EVENT TOOK PLACE IN 2002. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS WATCHING OUR SHOW ON TVNZ+, YOU CAN ALSO FIND ALL OF OUR INTERVIEWS ON YOUTUBE. JUST SEARCH NZ Q+A. WE'VE GOT A PLAYLIST THERE WITH INTERVIEWS WHICH RELATE TO THE ISRAEL-HAMAS CONFLICT. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE'RE CHANGING GEAR. AS THE GOVERNMENT ASSESSES THE VALUE OF THE FREE SCHOOL LUNCHES PROGRAMME, WE'RE BACK AT SCHOOL, DOING THE SAME THING. THE GOVERNMENT'S FREE SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAMME IS UNDER PRESSURE, WITH A REVIEW UNDERWAY AND THE POTENTIAL FOR FUNDING TO BE CUT OR SCRAPPED ENTIRELY. BUT ONE SOUTH AUCKLAND SCHOOL IS PUSHING BACK, SAYING FOR THEM, IT HAS BEEN TRANSFORMATIVE INDIRA STEWART REPORTS. (SMOOTH MUSIC) 2200 STUDENTS ENTER THESE GATES EVERY DAY AND MAKE UP THE LARGEST LOW-DECILE SCHOOL IN AOTEAROA. STAFF HERE SAY THEY'RE AMONG THE MOST RESILIENT KIDS IN THE FACE OF TOUGH CHALLENGES. HI, GUYS. KIDS: HI. YOU'RE WELCOME. LUNCH WILL BE SERVED IN 10 MINUTES. OH, THANK YOU, SIR. THANK YOU. OH, ALL GOOD. YOU'RE WELCOME. THEY'VE BEEN RECEIVING FREE SCHOOL LUNCHES SINCE 2019... YOU'RE WELCOME. BE CAREFUL, IT'S HOT. ...AND LIKE A THOUSAND OTHER SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THEY'RE WAITING ON ASSOCIATE EDUCATION MINISTER DAVID SEYMOUR'S DECISION THAT COULD SEE FUNDING FOR THESE MEALS CUT BY UP TO HALF. $350 MILLION EVERY YEAR, AND NOBODY HAS ASKED, DOES THIS PROGRAMME WORK? NOBODY'S LOOKED AT THE WASTE. THAT'S THE JOB THAT I NOW HAVE. AND SO MY JOB IS TO COME UP WITH A WAY OF GETTING AS MUCH BENEFIT AS WE CAN FOR KIDS WHO TRULY NEED IT, WHILE ALSO SAVING MONEY SO THAT WE CAN BALANCE THE BOOKS. DAVID SEYMOUR... OR DAVID SEE-LESS? (ALL LAUGH) I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO GIVE HIM OUR OWN PERSPECTIVES, UM, AND THAT WOULD KIND OF WIDEN HIS VIEWS ON THE SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAMME AND OUR OWN STRUGGLES, BECAUSE I THINK HE DOESN'T... HE DOESN'T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE. IN EARLY MARCH, WE ASKED SEYMOUR FOR AN HOUR OF HIS TIME TO MEET WITH SOME STUDENTS. HE WASN'T AVAILABLE UNTIL EARLY MAY. I'M SAYING, LIKE, HE WOULD HAVE MADE TIME EVEN IF IT WAS FOR HALF AN HOUR, LIKE, TO JUST COME AND HEAR FROM US, BUT, UM, YEAH, IT'S OK. HE MUST HAVE OTHER PRIORITIES. YEAH. YEAH. BUT LIKE I SAID, YEAH, IF IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HIM, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN HERE. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID TO HIM? I'D JUST GET STRAIGHT TO THE POINT ` ASK HIM A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAMME AND WHY HE WANTS TO CUT IT, UM, AND I'D ALSO WANT HIM TO SEE THAT, UM, BECAUSE AS YOU SAW EARLIER, ALL OUR LUNCHES WERE ALL` LIKE, IT ALL RAN OUT. I UNDERSTAND DIFFERENT POLITICIANS HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS. I CAN SEE THAT HE HAS A LOGICAL APPROACH TO, UM, THE SCHOOL LUNCHES, BUT I THINK IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS, WHEN WE'RE ACTUALLY DEALING WITH LIVES OF HUMAN BEINGS, UM, WE NEED TO BE A BIT EMPATHETIC. I THINK HE'S FROM EPSOM. UM, I BELIEVE THE... THE LIFESTYLE IN EPSOM COMPARED TO HERE IN MANUWERA, IT'S VERY DIFFERENT. HE HASN'T REALLY GOT IN TO OUR LEVEL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE REALLY GOING THROUGH... MM. ...FROM EPSOM. IT'S A VERY VULNERABLE TOPIC FOR OUR STUDENTS, AND I KNOW THAT THEY WON'T COME OUT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT BECAUSE SOME WOULD FEEL EMBARRASSED. MM. SOME OF THE STUDENTS IN OUR SCHOOL, UM, HAVING THESE LUNCHES, IT'S PROBABLY LIKE THE BEST MEALS THEY'VE HAD IN A WHILE. SO, UM, IT ALSO GIVES THEM... A POSITIVE OUTLOOK ON LIFE, EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE GOING THROUGH STRUGGLES RIGHT NOW. IT'S KIND OF LIKE A LITTLE REASSURANCE THAT THINGS WILL GET BETTER. YES, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A NEED, BUT ALSO, LOOK AT THE WAY WE'RE DOING IT. WE'RE DOING IT IN THE MOST POSITIVE, UPLIFTING WAY. PRINCIPAL PETE JONES WAS HOPEFUL SEYMOUR WOULD VISIT SO HE COULD SEE THE IMPACT THE FREE LUNCHES HAVE HAD ON THE SCHOOL. OUR KIDS ARE AMAZING. UH, OUR KIDS ARE, YOU KNOW, AS GOOD AS ANYONE, THE SAME POTENTIAL. I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS THEY DON'T ALWAYS START ON THE SAME START LINE. AND IF YOU'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED THAT, HOW DO YOU KNOW, AND HOW CAN YOU RELATE TO THAT? (SMOOTH MUSIC) KIA ORA, TEAM, HOW ARE WE DOING? ALL: HI! THIS KITCHEN PUMPS OUT THOUSANDS OF MEALS A DAY, NOT JUST FOR ITS OWN STUDENTS, BUT ALSO FOR NEIGHBOURING PRIMARY SCHOOLS HOMAI AND MANUREWA WEST. WELL, THIS IS MONDAY'S MEAL. SO WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'VE GOT A LOVELY BROWN RICE WITH QUINOA AND VEGES, AND THEN WE'VE GOT SOME VEGES ON TOP, A LOVELY MARINATED CHICKEN AND SERVED WITH MUSHROOM SAUCE HERE. 16 PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY ARE EMPLOYED, WITH 14 STUDENTS WORKING AND GAINING CREDITS IN THE KITCHEN EVERY DAY. WE'RE HERE TO MAKE OUR SCHOOL PROUD. HI, MUM. HI, DAD. I'M ON CAMERA. WE WORK AS A TEAM, STAY PROFESSIONAL ALL THE TIME WITH EACH OTHER. (ALL LAUGH) SO THERE'S NO FOOD FIGHT. YEP. FORMER BOARD MEMBER STEVE SMITH IS A CHEF BY TRADE. HE WORKED IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY FOR THREE DECADES. mADE REDUNDANT DURING COVID, HE WAS HIRED TO RUN THE SCHOOL'S LUNCHES SCHEME. HIS AIM AS TO WASTE NOTHING. EVERYTHING WE BUY, WE BUY TO THE EXACT AMOUNT, SO WE DON'T HAVE, UH, FOOD LEFT OVER AS SUCH FOR THE MEALS. WE JUST MAKE THE MEALS UP, AND THEN WE MAY FREEZE THEM DOWN IF THE, THE ROLE IS, UM... RAINY DAY AND YOU DON'T HAVE ALL OF IT THERE. WE'LL FREEZE THOSE DOWN. MOST DAYS, ALL MEALS ARE EATEN; IF THERE ARE A FEW LEFTOVERS, IT GETS GIVEN TO THE COMMUNITY. 2021 DATA FOUND UP TO 5% OF MEALS GO TO WASTE. SEYMOUR SAYS THE SCHEME IS WASTEFUL. MULTIPLE FOOD CONTRACTORS TOLD Q+A SOME WASTE IS INEVITABLE WITH A PROGRAMME THAT FEEDS MORE THAN 220,000 KIDS, AND 5% WAS A SUCCESS RATE. WE PUT A CALL OUT ON SOCIAL MEDIA ASKING ABOUT WASTE. STAFF FROM MORE THAN 50 SCHOOLS FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY SENT US THEIR FEEDBACK. ACCORDING TO THE FEEDBACK, HOT MEALS WERE POPULAR, SANDWICHES AND OTHER COLD FOODS WERE NOT. SCHOOLS THAT MADE LUNCHES INTERNALLY HAD LITTLE TO NO WASTE. BUT FIVE STAFF SAID SOME EXTERNAL CONTRACTORS CONTINUED SENDING UNPOPULAR MEALS DESPITE THEIR FEEDBACK, LEADING TO MORE WASTE. IF YOU GIVE THEM A SOGGY AND 'UNFLAVOURSOME' SANDWICH, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO EAT IT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE SEEN, PARTICULARLY WITH MANUWERA WEST, WHERE THEY'VE GONE FROM A DIFFERENT SUPPLIER LAST YEAR TO US, UH, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE WASTE ANYMORE. (INDISTINCT CHATTER) PRINCIPAL PETE JONES SAYS THE LUNCH SCHEME ISN'T WASTED HERE; IT'S MAKING A DIFFERENCE. ATTENDANCE RATES AT MANUREWA HIGH SCHOOL CONTINUE TO CLIMB SINCE COVID, AND THE SCHOOL'S MAORI AND PASIFIKA ACHIEVEMENT RATES ARE HIGHER THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE FOR THOSE GROUPS. EIGHT OF ITS BUILDINGS HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED BY THE EDUCATION MINISTRY DUE TO ASBESTOS. STUDENTS HERE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO KEEP USING THEM. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT NO MEMBER OF GOVERNMENT, WHATEVER PARTY THEY COME FROM, WOULD BE WORKING IN THOSE BUILDINGS. IF WE'RE IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF AOTEAROA, OF AUCKLAND, THERE'S NO WAY THE COMMUNITY WOULD BE PUTTING UP WITH THAT, AND IT'S JUST NOT FAIR. WE'RE HERE IN THE SCHOOL'S MARA, THE VEGE GARDEN, WHICH HELPS SUPPLY THE KITCHEN. IF YOU'D HAVE SEEN THIS A YEAR AGO TO SEEING IT NOW... (GENTLE MUSIC) BEFORE FREE LUNCHES, CHARITIES LIKE KidsCan AND KiwiHarvest PROVIDED FOODS LIKE BREAD AND BAKED BEANS, ENOUGH TOASTED SANDWICHES TO FEED ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE STUDENTS HERE WITHOUT FREE LUNCHES. THE REALITY IS WE'D BE GOING BACK TO THE LIKES OF KidsCan AND KiwiHarvest AND ANOTHER FOOD DONATION GROUPS TO SEE WHAT FOOD WE COULD GET IN. WE'D BE LOOKING TO FAST TRACK OUR PRODUCTION ON THE MARA. I'M PART OF A FARM AND BOARD OUT OF BROOKBY'S DONALD PEARSON FARM ` AMAZING PROJECT ` I'D BE LOOKING MAYBE TO GET A COUPLE OF COWS SO WE COULD PUT SOME MEAT ON THE TABLE AS WELL, I DON'T KNOW. SO BASICALLY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO STOP FEEDING YOUR KIDS? WE CAN'T. WE CAN'T. WE KNOW HOW IMPORTANT IT IS. WE JUST HAVE TO FIND WAYS, BUT WE SHOULDN'T BE HAVING TO DO THIS. WE SHOULDN'T BE STRESSING ABOUT EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT AND THINKING ABOUT IT; THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE INVESTING IN THIS. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. FA'AFETAI LAVA. HI. HI, GUYS. I'VE GOT MEATBALLS TODAY. ENJOY JOY. I'VE GOT MEATBALLS TODAY. ENJOY. TEACHERS SAY FREE LUNCHES HAVE HELPED IMPROVE ATTENDANCE, BEHAVIOUR AND LEARNING. SEYMOUR SAYS FUNDING WILL BE CUT AND PLANS TO ANNOUNCE HIS DECISION IN MAY DEEP DOWN, HE KNOWS, AND EVERYBODY ELSE KNOWS, THAT WE SHOULD BE FUNDING HEALTHY KAI FOR OUR KIDS. IT'S A NO-BRAINER. ANYTHING WE CAN DO AS A SOCIETY TO UPLIFT OUR PEOPLE, TO SUPPORT OUR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE MOST IN NEED, THAT'S GOT TO BENEFIT EVERYBODY. (CHUCKLES) THAT'S INDIRA STEWART REPORTING THERE. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER OR FACEBOOK. HEI AKUANEI ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI ` SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY TOM CLARKE AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024.