The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 29, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:59:41] (COMMERCIAL BREAK) JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper, and we are following the breaking news at college campuses across the United States. Protests against the war in Gaza, the IDF activities in Gaza are up. Universities are cracking down. Many schools bringing in law enforcement officials to curb the demonstrations, which the students insist are peaceful, though as a factual matter they have at times been disruptive. Some have been anti-Semitic. CNN's Ed Lavandera is watching all of this unfold on one particular campus, University of Texas, Austin, where Texas State Police moved in on protesters earlier and made some arrests. Ed, what is the latest there now? ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey Jake, well the camp just moments ago has essentially been cleared out of all of the protesters. I'll let our photographer kind of step in here through the crowd and kind of get a shot of what is left. There were dozens of protesters inside this circle that has been cordoned off by state troopers, UT police, as well as Austin police. And over the last two hours, Jake, we have seen several dozen people taken into custody. We don't have an exact number on the amount of people who have been arrested, but UT officials in a statement saying a short while ago that over the weekend, they started receiving threats from the group, which they did not specify, that was organizing the protests here on the UT campus. They also said that they believe that the majority of the people who have been taken into custody here at this protest are not students. But regardless, it has garnered and created a great deal of attention here on the campus, on the South Mall of the University of Texas campus, where now that the protesters have been cleared out of what they had described as a camp-liberated zone. Now the question becomes, what do the officers do now? Because there's a relatively large group of people who have been supporting the protesters, encircling the officers who were encircling the encampment. So, the question now becomes, what happens to this particular area? How do they clear out everyone else who is still here? University officials have made clear over the last week that they were not going to tolerate anybody trying to set up a campsite inside this area. So, if you look inside that camp area, you see a number of tents, and many of the protesters were able to set up camp areas or tents. And once university officials say they saw that, that's when they called in law enforcement, because as they said, they were not going to tolerate any kind of long-term encampment here. Many of the protesters here believe that the protesters who were here, were doing it peacefully, simply sitting on the grass on this lawn, and didn't deserve to be arrested. But that is the tension that we're seeing unfold here, and have seen unfold here this afternoon for several hours now, Jake. TAPPER: Ed, thanks so much. Appreciate it. I love being there in Austin. CNN's Omar Jimenez is at Columbia University, thousands of miles away in Manhattan. Demonstrators had been given by the college administration a deadline of 2:00 p.m. Eastern to clear out their tents and encampments. Omar, it appears that the majority of protesters ignored that deadline. So, what's happening at Columbia right now? OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, a number of those protesters and students chose not to adhere to that 2:00 p.m. deadline to clear the encampment or face suspension. You can see the encampment behind me. There's a good number of students in there right now. And actually, you can see a good number of them seem to be sitting in a circle at the moment right now, as they do at times, either sharing discussions or things like that. But bottom line, there are still folks inside the encampment. [17:04:58] That said, we have not seen any direct action from the university just yet, as far as even suspensions that have been announced or anything further than that. But to give you an idea, earlier today, essentially in this track space or this walkway here, students in protest of that deadline encircled the encampment, essentially to protect those from coming into the encampment and potentially either suspend the students in person or make them sign an agreement saying they would adhere to university policies. That, of course, has died down. But we also saw faculty link arms at the entrance of the encampment as well. So, this is where the encampment actually is. But I want to show you it has not just been pro-Palestinian support here. We've obviously seen many of these posters here posted up, of course, bring him, bring them home now in reference to the hostages, the Israeli hostages held in Gaza, many of them. And then, of course, on the other portions of grass leading into this other library here, we've had Israeli flags planted here as well. So, we've seen a number of even Jewish students who have come and almost counter-protested here, saying that they deserve to be on campus as much as those who are pro-Palestinian protesting here as well. And those have been the dynamics that we've seen. But the bottom line here, Jake, is while we do hear some protests happening outside the gates of the university right now, inside right here there is an air of calm, but we do expect an update from university officials this afternoon. And it remains to be seen the number of suspensions they may levy or any further action they actually take after, again, imposing that 2:00 p.m. deadline. TAPPER: Omar Jimenez on the campus of Columbia University in Barnard College, thanks so much. Joining us now, a professor from Columbia Business School, Robert Bontempo. He's an expert in negotiation. Professor Bontempo, help me out in understanding negotiation on this one topic, the administration of Columbia trying to negotiate with these student protesters. On Friday, the president of Columbia, Minouche Shafik, released a statement that said in part, quote, "We have our demands, they have theirs." And I heard from other folks in the world of university authorities that were surprised by that statement. Do you think as an expert in negotiation that President Shafik gave away leverage by suggesting basically that the university and the students are on some sort of equal playing field? ROBERT BONTEMPO, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA BUSINESS SCHOOL: Well, that's certainly a reasonable perspective. It's important to keep in mind that President Shafik is an experienced international diplomat. And in the early stages of this movement, I think she brought from her own historical background a mediation approach, trying to create a dialogue and let all the voices be heard, I think imagining that she could reach a resolution that would be satisfactory to all parties. But the breadth of this movement, I think, has taken us all by surprise. And she's now embroiled in a negotiation, which is a very different process. Now it's about proposals, counter demands and, frankly, power. Now it's a very different game. TAPPER: Yeah, I understand and appreciate being an international diplomat. I just also wonder if for an administration trying to balance freedom of speech with also allowing the other students, it seems like a majority of them, who just want to learn and go to classes and live their lives, that the smaller group, that free speech group in this, you know, simplification, has been given more opportunity, more power than the other group, with that approach of diplomacy as opposed to, I mean, a college president's not a diplomat. A college president's an authoritarian, really. BONTEMPO: Well, again, that's a judgment call. But the part of your comment is, and we can't undo the past, and it's easy to criticize when you're not in the room. But I think looking back, a negotiation approach would have been the right move, not a mediation. Hearing people's voices, there was no opportunity for persuasion here. She's facing a series of stakeholders that have multiple conflicting and sometimes not overlapping demands. The correct strategy is what she's doing now. Who are the key stakeholders I have to pay attention to? Who can I appease? And how can I thread the needle and come to a solution that will achieve our long-term goals? Now, to her credit, she's been very, very clear right from the start, clarifying her core values. Safety of the students on campus is non-negotiable. Freedom of speech is a core aspect of the mission of Columbia. And it's only when those two come into conflict, as you've been pointing out, that she faces a real dilemma. [17:10:02] But what's happening now is a little bit of a slow-motion train wreck, where the administration came out some days ago, arrested about 100 folks, then they backpedaled and promised not to use the police anymore. As of this morning, they've threatened to bring the police onto campus and clear out the tents. And that kind of inconsistency in her position, I think, is creating an unhealthy atmosphere among all the parties. TAPPER: What about the lines that are crossed when it comes to the free speech right of somebody to say something abhorrent, like, I support the October 7th attacks on civilians in Israel and the people who died committing those atrocities or freedom fighters, protected by the First Amendment, I've heard that said at Columbia, not just outside, at Columbia. But there's also the right of students who don't think killing civilians just because they're Israeli and or Jewish is okay or acceptable. What does a university president at a private university do? BONTEMPO: Well, Jake, you've already had free speech experts and lawyers dive into that. The devils in those details. We're all in favor of free speech until somebody says something we don't like. My personal conviction is the best way to fight a bad idea is with a better idea. And the best way to overcome bad speech is more speech. So, I stand as a free speech absolutist. But I certainly agree with you that calls to violence and incitement, there has to be a line. And she gets paid the big bucks to find out where that line is. And I'm going to defer to the lawyers and the experts on helping her back that up. My role as a negotiation, from the negotiation perspective, is how is she going to get out of this very difficult problem. And what she needs to do is find who are the key stakeholders. And let's not lose sight of these are very high stakes. There are many millions of dollars riding on these decisions. Donations from alumni, the economic impact of USC canceling their graduation, airfare, hotels, restaurants. These are very significant financial costs. And any negotiation analysis has to include both the institutional cost as well as the personal cost. Let's not lose sight of the fact that in 1968, a former president of Columbia, Grayson Kirk, lost his job because he called the police onto campus to deal with demonstrators. In that case, it was against the Vietnam War. So, there's a very rich legacy here, and this is all on her shoulders. TAPPER: Robert Bontempo, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today. Coming up, we're going to continue to stay on top of all these protests across the United States. I'm going to be joined by a former university president to get his take on the demonstrations, reaction to the canceled University of Southern California graduation, and whether he thinks other schools should do the same. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:15:00] TAPPER: Now we're back with more of the breaking news. Protests heating up on college campuses across the United States. I want to bring in CNN Senior National Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem. Juliette, we saw numerous arrests at the University of Texas, Austin. Is that an appropriate response to you based on what the students are accused of doing, which I suppose is these encampments that violate rules? JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I never think it's the good first approach, especially on colleges and universities where there is often tolerance for protests. So, these aren't the first protests. So, you want colleges and universities to be consistent, where there were no allegations of violence, at least at that stage, and where, most importantly, the use of law enforcement without any ability to essentially provide off-ramps, figure out whether things can be de-escalated, leads to the kind of conflict we have seen, leads to more people being energized, which is not great for the college or university. And I think significantly, as you're seeing, leads to other stakeholders like these faculties not loving this and doing these votes against the president. So, there's an appropriate role for law enforcement, in particular access control. I cannot believe how long it's taken for these colleges and universities to get serious about who is on their campuses and the swipe cards. We do them all the time where I teach. TAPPER: Why call-in state police over local police or campus police? KAYYEM: So, a variety of reasons. In some of these instances, campus police are not authorized to make arrests. They are simply sort of crowd control, parties, you know, making sure there's not a disruption. So, some of it is actually legal that the state police have authority on it. But once again, state police are not trained for this kind of interaction. And I think we've seen some of the errors, right. They are told, end this. Well, they only have one tool to end it, which is to arrest everyone. And I think what you're seeing, actually, Jake, is sort of a learning process over this week where there are attempts to de-escalate. There are attempts to isolate and to put these protests in perspective. And then at some stage, if necessary, utilize public safety. I think it's important that all students feel safe. I don't think graduations ought to be canceled. These are manageable safety and security incidents if the universities get smart about access, about off-ramps, you know, ratcheting it up. [17:20:00] And then ultimately outcomes for these students, including not getting their diplomas, not graduating, academic penalties. This matters to these students, and honestly, it matters to their parents. TAPPER: All right, Juliette Kayyem, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Joining us now, Frederick Lawrence, former president of Brandeis University. I want to get your reaction to these protests. There's a lot of passion on campus. People want the war in Gaza to end, understandably. There's a lot of civilians being killed. There's also a lot of rhetoric that crosses a line from critical of Israel to blaming Jewish students to saying Israel shouldn't exist to saying Jews should go back to Poland and on and on and on. Where does it become the responsibility of a university to weigh in on the speech itself? FREDERICK LAWRENCE, FORMER PRESIDENT OF BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY: What makes this hard is that two core issues are coming into conflict with each other. On the one hand, free expression, free inquiry, academic freedom. This is absolutely fundamental to the institution. Safety of the students, of the whole environment, is also important, but that's instrumental to that fundamental mission. So, you have to start with a presumption that we're going to protect expression, we're going to protect speech. Where there are actual threats, obviously that can't go. Where there's actual interference in the operation of the university, that can be precluded. But a fair level of discomfort, of unpleasant things being said, that can be addressed by the university in other ways, but not through punishment and not through discipline. TAPPER: So, I mean, you say that, but there was a student at Columbia who had said that he didn't think Zionists had a right to live. LAWRENCE: Right. TAPPER: And he was, I think, asked to leave the campus. LAWRENCE: He was asked to leave the campus, but you know, that's a good example of a case where he said something and then walked it back substantially. These are young people who are going to say lots of things, some of which are way beyond what they even think they're saying. And on further reflection, they want to step it back. You've got to remember the purpose of a university is to educate. It's not to discipline, it's not to punish. If you've got an actual threat being made, then it makes sense for campus security to step in, or in a situation where they can't, for law enforcement to step in. That's last resort stuff, and I think we're getting to that way too soon. TAPPER: So, I know -- I have good friends who have a child at Columbia, and that child is Jewish, feels vaguely threatened, but more important to that child's educational experience is he can't study. It's so loud. It's so noisy. There are people blocking his way to class. There are people pounding on drums at night. I am not saying that that is worse than what's going on in Gaza, okay. These are completely separate issues in many ways. But that student has a right to an education, and he's not able to get one. LAWRENCE: The technical legal term is time, place, and manner regulations. And what that means in this context is regulations can be set up that allows for the orderly running of the university. If people are actually blocking buildings, you can't get in, you can't get out, they can't be permitted to do that. But if they're demonstrating in front of the building so that it's unpleasant to walk through that, that, unfortunately, is the price of living in a free society. TAPPER: Well, here's the other thing. We're covering these protests, and we're covering free speech versus security on campus. We're covering anti-Semitic behavior and language. This is taking room from my show that I would normally be spending covering what is going on in Gaza or what is going on with the International Criminal Court talking about maybe bringing charges. LAWRENCE: Right. TAPPER: We were talking about the ceasefire deal. I mean, this -- so I don't know that the protesters, just from a media perspective, are accomplishing what they want to accomplish because I'm actually covering the issue and the pain of the Palestinians and the pain of the Israelis, not that they're protesting for that, less because of this. LAWRENCE: And by the way, some of the protesters are protesting for the release of the hostages and for the pain of the Israelis. TAPPER: A small -- not the -- LAWRENCE: Not the numbers that we're seeing. TAPPER: Yeah. Yeah. LAWRENCE: Quite right. Quite right. TAPPER: The fact that they'd be doing it differently and better, I think, I wonder. LAWRENCE: Well, they could certainly be doing it differently and better, but you could say that about student protesters of every generation. There's no question that student protesters during the late '60s, and a lot of reference to that has been made recently, took a lot of media coverage away from coverage of the Vietnam War. I think that most of those students -- TAPPER: And they got Richard Nixon elected and re-elected. LAWRENCE: Yes, they did, and ultimately the war did wind down. Cause and effect, way too complicated to do with this. Could they be doing this differently, better? Absolutely. But these are also young people who are passionate about what they're saying. TAPPER: Sure. LAWRENCE: I think the responsibility for a lot of what's happening, we start with the grown-ups and look at how they're handling some of these things. TAPPER: Well, speaking of the grown-ups, obviously there are some professors who are playing questionable roles here and there, but I have heard from a few -- a couple universities, neither of which I'm affiliated with personally, that they're worried about the role of outside groups, of NGOs, of groups that are explicitly anti-Israel, or supportive of Hamas, etc. [17:25:03] I don't know if that's a red herring, I don't know if that's a desire to blame someone else more so than the students and the faculty, but what do you make of that? LAWRENCE: I think that's a real concern, and it is hard to tell how much. The concern with outside agitators has always been used as a reason to break up demonstrations. So, I start with -- TAPPER: I hear it was -- I hear it was -- when you say outside agitators, I hear it in the voice of a southern sheriff talking about civil rights activists. LAWRENCE: No. And maybe that was intentional on my part, that's right. So, there is a certain skepticism that comes with that. But there are also ways of controlling for that. So those schools, for example, that have done a kind of arrest and then you show your student ID and you're released immediately, you can't show a student ID and then you are arrested, that's not a bad way of doing it. Those campuses that are already fenced off and you need a passkey, or a swipe key to get through, that's not a bad way to do it. So, campuses are not wrong to be concerned about this. But I haven't seen a lot of evidence that the overwhelming problem here is outside agitators. TAPPER: Last quick question for you. Columbia right now is saying to these kids after they violated the 2:00 p.m. curfew, they had to remove their encampments, you risk being suspended or maybe even expelled. Is that a good way to approach it or bad? LAWRENCE: Never think backing students into a corner is a good way of approaching it. And you never refer to the students in the third person, it's never the students they, it's never the faculty they, it's we. There's only one entity in the university, it's we. It's hard, of course its hard, passions are really high, but this is when it's important to focus on that. TAPPER: All right, Frederick Lawrence, former university president, thanks so much. As these protests unfold on campuses around the country, coast to coast in the United States, President Biden just got his lowest approval rating yet for his handling of the Israel-Hamas war. Can he turn things around with young voters? We're going to discuss that next, and hey, that's maybe an effect of these protests right now as we see all that live. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …