The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 30, 2024 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:00:00] … (COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: …90 years -- the United States, not Biden. Leading this hour, a bombshell interview from former President Donald Trump just dropped in "Time Magazine's" cover story called, "If He Wins". The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired April 30, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: …It features a wide ranging interview with Donald Trump tells the reporter and us in his own words what a second term could look like should he win his bid to retake the White House. In just a moment the editor behind the interviewer joins The Lead. So what is Trump saying he will do? Well, a lot. On immigration, Trump says plans are on to use the military to carry out a mass deportation of millions of undocumented immigrants. He's indicating he's willing to sidestep a law that prohibits using American troops against civilians. He says, quote, "Well, these aren't civilians. These are people that aren't legally in our country. This is an invasion of our country," unquote. Asked about the possibility of political violence if he were to lose the election to Joe Biden as he did in 2020, Mr. Trump said he was going to win, and then quote, "And if we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of an election," unquote. Asked if he would fire a U.S. attorney who refuses to follow his orders to prosecute someone he wants to prosecute. He said, quote, "It depends on the situation honestly." Asked if he would consider pardoning every single one of the nearly 800 rioters convicted of attacking the Capitol on January 6, Trump said, "I would consider that yes. Yes, absolutely." Joining me now to discuss more is Massimo Calabresi, the Washington bureau chief for TIME magazine. Massimo, thanks so much for joining us. So the title the cover story is "How Far Trump Would Go." And your reporter presses Trump in a wide ranging -- range of issues. He opens with this sense, Donald Trump thinks he's identified a crucial mistake of his first term. He was too nice. What does that signify to you? MASSIMO CALABRESI, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, it sets the tone for the whole piece, which is, this is the same Donald Trump we're all very familiar with. But he struck Eric Cortellessa, our reporter, and all of us involved into pieces more confident. That confidence, I think, comes from his own experience, but also from having a real plan for what he would do if he got in office. And it is, in some ways designed to be tougher than last time. TAPPER: And in addition to the article, you published a transcript of the interviews, a fact check for some of the claims Trump made in the interview. It's not -- I've been reading TIME magazine since the 1970s, it's not normally how these things are done. Why take these extra steps? CALABRESI: Well, we think the transcript is of historic significance. It was a long interview. The first -- TAPPER: Two interviews, really? CALABRESI: Two interviews, that's right. The first interview was more than an hour in Mar-a-Lago in person. The second interview was last Saturday, 20 minutes. And he gets into a lot. And we think there's a fair amount that we cover in the story, but we thought it was valuable for the transcript to be out there for everybody to have a look. TAPPER: So, I think a lot of people are concerned about the potential for political violence again, whether Trump wins or loses quite honestly. And in the lead up, Trump said on the subject, he thinks he's going to win and there won't be any violence. But when asked if he doesn't win, he said, as I quoted before, "If we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of an election. I don't believe they'll be able to do the things that they did the last time I don't think they'll be able to get away with it." First of all, fact check, nobody got away with anything last time. Donald Trump lost, fair and square and January 6 was a horrible moment in our nation's history. But what did you make of that answer, given the fact that he is literally facing charges in Georgia and in federal court for his activities on January 6, and related to January 6? CALABRESI: Look, I think it's another opportunity for voters and readers to make a judgment for themselves about this man as a candidate. He -- that kind of equivocation around very sensitive subjects is almost a trademark of Donald Trump as a politician. The context in which we're seeing it now is quite different. The trials as you say, but I do think it's an opportunity for people to take a look and see how, you know, what they feel about that. TAPPER: So your reporter asked Trump about this comment. He said to Sean Hannity during a Town Hall during -- on Fox last December, take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that I'm not a dictator. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Now, it's interesting, because when I heard Trump say that, I thought he's goofing around. He likes to play with attacks on him. I'm not justifying or defending it, but I never took it seriously. But his opponents, Joe Biden, and others have said, see, see he wants to be a dictator. He said in the interview, no, no, no, I was just joking around. I was being sarcastic. Your reporter says, don't you see why many Americans see such talk of dictatorship as contrary to our most cherished principles? [17:05:07] Trump says, "I think a lot of people like it." What's your take? CALABRESI: I mean, I don't really have a take. I would say he clearly wants people to think he was joking. I don't think he's necessarily wrong that people liked that kind of talk. What I liked most about the piece and this opportunity is that we got into a lot of policy steps that he says he would take that really get at the underlying question of just how strong or authoritarian a president would he be. So, there's a long section in the interview where Eric talks to him about the ways he would exert control over the Justice Department. DOJ, by far has more power than any other branch of government to curtail Americans freedoms. So, if you want to think about whether Trump has authoritarian tendencies, the place for you to look is in the transcript and in the story where he talks about the ways that he would use the Justice Department against people he thinks should be prosecuted for. TAPPER: Right. And if they don't carry out what he says he leaves it open for -- I mean, usually there is supposed to be some sort of independence. For instance, I don't think that President Biden particularly likes what special counsel Weiss is doing when it comes to bringing charges -- CALABRESI: Right. TAPPER: -- against his son Hunter, but there is supposed to be a respect for the system. And Donald Trump clearly saying that he's leaving it open about to firing them. CALABRESI: So, almost every president before him has recognized what the Founders knew, which was there's a kind of a wrinkle in our system, which is the law enforcement powers with the power to arrest and detain American citizens rise up to the president ultimately there in the executive branch. Out of tradition, presidents have tried to show deference to Senate approved prosecutors to use prosecutorial deference to pursue the law safely protected from the political or personal interests of a political leader. Trump is smashing right through that when he says that he might fire prosecutors who don't go after people he tells them to. TAPPER: And also the reluctance to accept facts as facts apparent. He talks about surging crime rates, how horrible the crime rate is. And look, any crime is horrible. But your reporter notes that the FBI statistic shows a 13 percent drop in homicides. In 2023, Trump responds, "The FBI gave fake numbers. I don't believe it. No, it's a lie. It's fake news." CALABRESI: So interesting thing there is that those numbers are actually compiled by state and local law enforcement and then fed up into the FBI, the FBI just takes them and packages them. So, yes, that's another example of why we had some fact check. TAPPER: And another issue of importance to a lot of people, he was asked if he's comfortable with states, because he says that should be left up to the states when it comes to abortion -- CALABRESI: Yes. TAPPER: -- is easy, comfortable states punishing women -- CALABRESI: Yes. TAPPER: -- who violate abortion bans. He says, quote, "I don't have to be comfortable or uncomfortable. The states are going to make that decision, the states are going to have to be comfortable or uncomfortable, not me." CALABRESI: So this is sort of an interesting whole subsection of the interview. There's a lot in this interview. This is obviously a very important issue in this campaign and for very important issue in America. The Republicans and Trump in particular have a problem with abortion, because a lot of states are going beyond where the political center is on that. And so, he's taking out what is a kind of a new and novel territory, which is an almost absolutist position on state control of abortion. In the most generous view, that means blue states do what blue states do, and red states do what red states do, but we wanted to kind of pin him down on what that would mean for everyday Americans. So Eric, rightly asked him, so if a state wants to monitor women's pregnancies, and then punish women who get pregnancies past the legal limit in that state, would you let that state do that? And he said he would. TAPPER: Yes, it's certainly going to be a lot of fodder for the election season. A fascinating interview. Thank you so much, Massimo Calabresi. Really appreciate it. Another major story we're following today, protests sweeping college campuses. Back on Capitol Hill, Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson announced a crackdown on antisemitism. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Antisemitism is a virus and because the administration and woke university presidents aren't stepping in, we're seeing it spread. We have to act. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill for us. Manu, in our -- in 2022, Republicans Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia and Paul Gosar of Arizona spoke at the white supremacist conference hosted by Nick Fuentes. They were condemned by House leadership at a time. That's an antisemitic organization. Nick Fuentes is an antisemitic person. Any mention of that or them in today's news conference? Is it only antisemitism on the left that's at issue here? [17:10:04] MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there was no mention of any of the past efforts, Jake. In fact, there's only discussion about these campus wide protests and what Republicans plan to do about it. In fact, there's not much discussion about winning concrete legislation that they plan to move ahead with. Instead, it was more about a number of congressional committees looking into federal funding, for instance, going to a number of universities as well as sending out letters and trying to get information about somehow the universities are peeking some action here, as well as hearings that we expect with university leaders, for instance, in the House Education and Workforce Committee, we expect Yale, Michigan and UCLA leaders to appear before that committees have been invited to appear by the end of May. So this is more of an oversight effort, Jake. The question is, how far do they take it? If they have to go after the federal funds to some of these universities, do they try to tie it, for instance, to government funding legislation to keep the government open in the fall? They could set up a showdown potentially with Democrats. We'll see if they decide to go that route. The speaker did not move ahead on that aspect of it. But Jake, this all comes at a key time for the speaker. He's trying to galvanize his conference behind this issue after months and months of infighting and acrimony. This is one in which Republicans are mostly on the same page on, Jake. TAPPER: Manu, House Democratic leaders took an unusual step today, they announced that if needed, they would save the speakership of Mike Johnson, the very conservative Louisiana Republican, if individuals like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others tried to oust him. How are lawmakers responding to that? RAJU: Yes, it's mixed views here, Jake. I mean, we do expect a wide number of lawmakers are probably overwhelmingly to vote to kill that effort to oust Mike Johnson. This is much different than what happened in that historic and unprecedented ouster of Kevin McCarthy last fall when all Democrats voted to kick out Kevin McCarthy along with eight Republicans. This time, we expect an overwhelming number of Democrats to save Mike Johnson, in large part because of him, his deals that he cut to keep the government open as also to provide aid to Ukraine, also the same deals causing problems with the far right. But even so, a number of Republicans and Democrats are indicated -- are indicating that they're willing to stand by the speaker, even if they disagree with his past deal making. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): We are passing the Democratic agenda each and every day that we're here. We have a slim majority in the House. And it's everything's being passed overwhelmingly with Democrat support. So, it makes no difference to me if it's Hakeem Jeffries's speaker or Mike Johnson right now. REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): I don't think it makes him weak. I mean, Mike's -- you know, he's under siege in a lot of different areas. And I think he feels that. RAJU: Are you comfortable with Democrats voting to keep Michael Johnson the speakership? REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): No, I'm not. RAJU: Why? BOWMAN: Because Hakeem Jeffries should be the speaker. (END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: And that last comment coming from progressive Democrat Jamaal Bowman, who disagrees with Hakeem Jeffries's approach on this. And Jake, Marjorie Taylor Greene plans to have a press conference tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. to announce her next step. She can call for votes as any one member can two out seek the ouster of a speaker. So, it could happen as soon as tomorrow, Jake. TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks so much. So much to talk about there from Trump's comments of TIME magazine to Speaker Johnson's calling President Biden to get involved in the campus protests, we're going to get into all of it right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:15] TAPPER: A lot to cover in our politics lead with House Democrats saying they're going to rescue House Speaker Mike Johnson, a conservative Republican, should Marjorie Taylor Greene or her ilk- trigger her effort to oust him. But first we're going to start with that blockbuster interview with Donald Trump and TIME magazine about his plans for a second term. Let's go straight to our political panel who's here. So, Sarah, first of all, let me just throw it over to you. What struck you most about the TIME magazine interview? SARAH LONGWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: How much Donald Trump talked about what he wanted to do going forward? I got to tell you this piece was -- it is terrifying, but also so important that everybody go read it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. LONGWELL: Because there has been so little attention paid to what Donald Trump says he's going to do in his next time, there's a lot of speculation, a lot of fear about what he's going to do. The things that were laid out in this piece show that people are right to be afraid. It's so funny, the juxtaposition and by funny, I don't mean funny haha, but terrifying, the way that he says, oh, I'm not going to be a dictator. I'm just joking. Also, let me tell you how I'm going to manipulate the Department of Justice and fire people who don't do exactly what they -- what I want and put a bunch of loyalists into the -- into all of these civil servant offices. Like that is exactly what people are saying when they're talking about dictator. And so, I was impressed by how much this reporter got out of him. And I think it's really important that we understand. Right now that the trials make us focus on sort of what Trump did before and we do have to, at some point, really start thinking about what Trump 2.0 is going to look like for this country. TAPPER: What about you? MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I mean, I totally agree, I think that he just laid out the differences between him and Joe Biden and what they're going to do when they go out and campaign or when this is -- what he's campaigning, because he's in trial every day. But I -- it is very scary, and it's fearful -- people should be fearful that he is going to be a dictator, just like he said he is going to do. TAPPER: It's interesting, like he did leave a lot like open in terms of like, he wouldn't rule out some of the harshest things that the reporter proposed, like, well, you use the military to actually build camps and deport 15 to 20 million undocumented immigrants and send them out? Maybe, I might. NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, yes. TAPPER: You know? HENDERSON: And listen, I think you have to take him at his word about -- TAPPER: Literally answers. HENDERSON: Literally and seriously, that was a mistake from 2016 that, you know, people sort of just said. There's no way he would do that. The other thing that would be different in a Trump presidency is that the guardrails are not there. He has completely at the top of to completely refashion the Republican Party in his own image on the House side on the Senate side, that seems likely, as well. And then at the state level, right, what were the guardrails in 2020 when he tried to overthrow the election? It was all of these Republicans, governors and secretaries of state have it prevented that from happening. It seems like a lot of these folks in the positions now would go right along with Donald Trump. So there is I think an added of fear that what he says he would want to do or which is motivated by anger and revenge and lunacy of the heat code and would want to put this stuff in place. [17:20:11] TAPPER: One of the most important issues the Democrats are counting on for 2024 is -- sorry, I just, uh, spending so much time today focused on 2015 and 2016, is for 2024 is abortion rights. And this reporter asked repeatedly, well, what about -- because he has said he thinks like Florida's abortion ban is going too far. But it's all up to the states. He's decided that this is where he's going to land, it's all up to the states. Are you -- would you be -- and the reporter says, would you be comfortable with this, with the state monitoring of what a woman's pregnancy? And we know, you know, people talk about people who are on the abortion rights community talk about, are they really going to like monitor women's menstrual cycles? Is this really what the big brother state is going to come in? And his answer is basically, it doesn't matter whether I'm comfortable with it, it's up to the states. Is that a tenable position? Will he be able to win over independents who might find the abortion issue a deal breaker on the on the pro-choice side, but he sounds like -- he's trying to sound reasonable. Might it work? LONGWELL: OK, so here's always the thing about Trump and abortion, voters do not think of him like they do like Mike Pence. Nobody thinks that Trump has any kind of sexual morality or is like -- they don't think he's pro-life, and that he would, you know, really -- that he cares a lot about implementing these things. And so, he's trying to live in that space where people -- they get what they got from him in terms of the judges, but they don't -- won't think that he's going to do anything terrible going forward. The problem for him is that's going to work in -- for the leave it to the states, it's fine for red states who want to do things that red states want to do, blue states that want to do -- what blue states want to do. The problem is in swing states and purple states, right, which is where this race is going to be won and lost. And it's going to be up to Democrats to make sure that the salience of abortion is extremely high, right? And so in Arizona, for example, right now, when they repeal that law, they put in the 1864 law, I just talked about Biden a bunch of focus groups where I listened to women from Arizona, they were extremely alarmed about the idea of Donald Trump -- TAPPER: Yes. LONGWELL: -- and Republicans in general now that that law is on the books. So that, I think is how he can't have it both ways if Democrats are going to really prosecute the case on abortion. TAPPER: And he is, other than Mitch McConnell, perhaps the individuals who was the single most responsible for Roe v Wade being overturned. I mean, just as a factual matter whether you like it or not. HAYS: He is the only person that is responsible. HENDERSON: Yes. HAYS: He put those justices on the court. But also this is going to be decided by 5 percent of the population who's not paying attention right now. So this article will jazz up his base that will raise him money, all the things, but when it comes down to getting -- to getting votes in November, this this article is going to really turn people the other way. HENDERSON: Yes, and I think particularly independent women, suburban, college educated women, they're not going to be like, well, I don't care about the women in middle Mississippi, their rights. They want, you know, sort of rights for abortion. And the idea that a president would essentially say he doesn't care about the lives of these women, the bodies of these women's in different states I think is pretty reprehensible to most women. TAPPER: Thanks to one and all. Appreciate it. Just moments ago, New York Governor Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, said students who breached an academic building at Columbia University must be held accountable. And Israeli student who was just elected president of one of Columbia's undergraduate schools is going to join me next week. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:27:42] TAPPER: And CNN continues to following the breaking news on college campuses where anti-Israel protests have disrupted academic life and learning across the United States. A silent protest earlier today at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill turned to this police physically pushing back a crowd, at one point police deploying a chemical irritant against the crowd. Classes and non-mandatory events are now canceled for the rest of the day. At UCLA, a Jewish student is posting videos of what he describes as campus protesters blocking him from entering a part of his own campus. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you move? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're not (inaudible). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we're going. We're going. I'm going in. I don't, I have my hands up. I'm not hurting them. I'm not hurting them. That's what they do. That's what they do, everybody. You guys are promoting aggression. You guys are promoting hate. Where you feel (ph) like students, we deserve to be there. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: CNN has reached out to the group in question for comments. A UCLA spokesperson called this a parent saying that the school has requested a law enforcement investigation. The school is warning any student responsible could be suspended or expelled. And then of course there is Columbia University, the epicenter of these protests today, the administration of the university saying it will expel students, expel them, the ones who are right now illegally occupying a campus building. Anti-Israel protesters early this morning took over Hamilton Hall. They smashed the windows on the front door, they secured a chain around it, they are preventing authorities from entering. All of this after Columbia yesterday gave protesters an ultimatum leave the encampment on the west lawn or face suspension. New York police officials estimate there are about 200 to 300 demonstrators at the encampment and in Hamilton Hall. The NYPD does not plan on going into Columbia University unless the school administration explicitly requests it. I want to bring in Maya Platek right now. This week, Maya became president elect of the student body of the Columbia School of General Studies. That's one of Columbia's four undergraduate colleges, and has been outspoken against Columbia students and faculty discriminating against Jews. Maya, congratulations on your election. For those of people who don't know, the School of General Studies was created for returning non- traditional students, and makes up about a quarter of the undergraduate student body. You won at a time when Israel and Jews are not necessarily having such a great time on the Columbia campus, Israelis and Jews. What do you make of your election during this moment? [17:30:25] MAYA PLATEK, STUDENT BODY PRESIDENT-ELECT, COLUMBIA SCHOOL OF GENERAL STUDIES: I mean, I think firstly, my election doesn't actually have that much to do with my nationality. I think a lot of people really resonated with my platform where I really encourage development of dialogue and unity on campus. I think a lot of people are looking for real solutions. And I'm hoping that I will be able to help bring them to like next year when I'm officially take over…