Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees Aired April 30, 2024 - 20:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [20:00:00] … ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining our special primetime coverage of the Trump hush money criminal trial. Day nine saw something remarkable: A former president held in contempt of court and threatened with jail time. And the lawyer who represented two of the women who alleged affairs with Trump testifying about the deals he made to buy their silence. The contempt ruling made history and made the man you see there a convicted criminal. Judge Juan Merchan finding he violated the gag order he's under nine times. Quoting from his ruling, "This Court rejects Defendant's arguments and finds that the People have established the elements of criminal contempt beyond a reasonable doubt." Criminal contempt, no sitting or former president has ever been found guilty of any crime before big or small until today. THE SOURCE's Kaitlan Collins was in the courtroom. In a moment, we'll talk with her about what she saw. Judge Juan Merchan fined the former president the maximum a thousand dollars for each count and warned him that further violations could land him in jail. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This gag order is not only unique, it's totally unconstitutional. You have a judge who's totally conflicted, totally, absolutely conflicted that he's rushing this case through. I'm supposed to be in Georgia. I'm supposed to be in New Hampshire. I'm supposed to be in Ohio and lots of other places and they have me sitting here for a Biden trial. It's a Biden trial. (END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: In fact, it's not. And there's no evidence that it is. The judge set Thursday for a hearing on four other alleged gag order violations. And testimony will continue Thursday from former Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels attorney, Keith Davidson, who was on the stand today as well. And as we talked about what he said on the stand today, we're also monitoring late developments at Columbia University where protesters are occupying one of the buildings and hundreds of New York police officers, members of the department's strategic response team, have just arrived outside campus. So we're going to continue to watch that closely and we'll bring you any updates. But the trial is where we turn now. With us tonight, New York's criminal defense attorney Arthur Aidala, bestselling author and former federal prosecutor, Jeffrey Toobin, former defense attorney and former Baltimore mayor, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, CNN's Kaitlan Collins, CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig and CNN's Kara Scannell, who is also in the court. So, Kaitlan and Kara, let me start with you. What were your impressions, Kaitlan? KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I mean, Kara knows this place like in the back of her hand. This is my first time inside the courtroom since the trial has started today. The first thing that stood out to me was who came inside the room with Trump, because I was told last week he was very sensitive to reporting that none of his allies were really there, that largely, with the exception of his defense team, he was kind of alone inside this courtroom. COOPER: None of his family had been there until today. COLLINS: None of his family had been there until today. Eric Trump was there today. But it wasn't just Eric Trump that was in the room. It was a slew of political aides and allies as well. We saw Trump's campaign manager, a campaign advisor. We also saw the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, the one that was facing impeachment a few months ago, that Trump publicly supported was in there. David McIntosh from the conservative Club for Growth was also in there. And so it was just a notable moment to see Trump surrounded by this front row of his aides, given that you had not really seen a ton of that. Some of his political advisors and other attorneys had been in there, but you hadn't seen that level of support. And clearly he was trying to change that kind of narrative that had emerged last week, that he was largely alone in the room. And Eric Trump was seated next to Susie Wiles. That's the Trump campaign manager who was in the room. They were paying very close attention as the evidence was being presented, as the text messages with Keith Davidson, the witness today, was on the screen. I was watching them and they were watching and reading along very closely with the rest of us in the courtroom. COOPER: Kara, what stood out to you? KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, those barrage of text messages were really telling between Keith Davidson and Dylan Howard of the National Enquirer, as they were - there were fits and starts, them trying to get these deals together. But also the impact on the campaign was something that we saw contemporaneously. These were the text messages they sent at the time. It was something they were actively concerned about, which is part of the prosecution's theory. But I also thought it was so interesting. We're already getting a sense of who Michael Cohen is by the adjectives and descriptions that several witnesses have used when talking about their interactions with Michael Cohen. COOPER: They're not exactly complimentary adjectives. SCANNELL: They are not. I mean, I wrote down a few. Jerk, a-hole, aggressive, barrage of insults and insinuations. [20:05:03] And Keith Davidson said, the moral of the story is no one wanted to talk to Cohen. So it's already giving the jury a sense of who this guy is. He comes in on the stand. They won't be surprised by his personality in case he does get defensive during some of this questioning. But I just think it was really interesting that you're getting the sense of who he is before you've even seen him. COLLINS: And Keith Davidson is a really compelling witness. This was his first time on the stand today. For people who don't recognize his name, he was the attorney who negotiated these deals for Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels. He no longer represents them. I think his ... COOPER: Yes. Karen McDougal was unhappy with her representation. COLLINS: Well, I mean, he said today that he took 45 percent of her six-figure cut that she got, so I don't know if that's ... COOPER: She said that everybody involved in the deal lied. COLLINS: Karen McDougal was also very upset with it and was upset when he later was putting pictures of her on his website to say that she was a former client. But that notwithstanding, I mean, it's a seedy world. And he was very blunt about it in text messages that he had sent. He was the one who sent the text message that said what have we done the night of the election, because he clearly thought that what they had done had benefited Trump. But he's a compelling witness in the sense that he makes jokes with the jurors at times. He was making fun - making very clear how he felt about Michael Cohen at times, comparing him to a squirrel, even at one point. COOPER: I read an account that you gave, just notes, that he was making eye contact with the jury, like Keith Davidson would actually address the jury. COLLINS: Yes. So when prosecutors would ask him a question, he - sometimes would look directly at the prosecutor, but often I would notice as Karen and I were both sitting in there, he would look directly at the juries. He was kind of telling a story. It wasn't just a yes or no answer. He was very genuine-seeming as he was providing this testimony. And he would sometimes get asked a question what did this person mean to you when they said that Trump is really, tight with money or something like that. And he would kind of pause and Trump is sitting there pursing his lips, and then he would say that Trump is very frugal. He also drew a through line between Trump and Michael Cohen and said he very much believed that Trump was behind these negotiations. COOPER: And Elie, just in my experience, prosecutors do encourage a witness to talk to the jury, if they can. ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So it's a really interesting tactical point. I never actually told a witness where to look. Because the last thing you wanted them to do is get cross-examined on. He told you everything, including where to look. But there's really two ways this happens. Some jurors don't want to break that fourth wall and so if, let's say, Toobin's cross-examining me, they're only looking at the lawyer back and forth. Others are looking right into the jury box and sort of communicating. And I obviously like the latter if the person is credible and personable. And based on Kaitlan and Kara's account, it sounds like Keith Davidson was. Now, if it's a really dangerous, scary, violent guy, then I don't want him looking in the jury box if he's my cooperating witness, because you don't want them freaked out. But it sounds to me, from your account, Kaitlan, like Davidson made a reasonable, legitimate connection with the jury, which you're happy with as a prosecutor. COOPER: Mayor, as a former defense attorney, would you encourage witnesses to - I mean, if you have a witness coming up like Michael Cohen who is abrasive and has been thuggish in the past in his behavior when he was working for Trump and clearly has lied, is it good that these prosecution witnesses are sort of giving advance warning that he's not that pleasant and all these things so that the jury isn't necessarily surprised that that's already built in? STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, (D) FORMER BALTIMORE MAYOR: Michael Cohen knows who he is. I don't think he's surprised at all about any of the a-hole, jerk, squirrel, he owns it. And I think it's important for the jury to have a sense of who is coming on. There were not - the prosecution is not trying to make Michael Cohen something that he is not. He - they are showing the jury, this is who he is - but these are the facts. So you might think he's an a-hole, squirrel, whatever, but he's telling the truth. And we have receipts. COOPER: Arthur, I mean, as an attorney, what it - does it take some of the sting out of, like, if a juror doesn't like Michael Cohen when he starts testify, if they've already been kind of forewarned, you may not like this guy, does that help? ARTHUR AIDALA, NEW YORK CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You start from the beginning. I mean, when I was in ADA, I had, like, literally crackheads from Brooklyn. They were - but they were my main witnesses and you would voir dire the jury and say, my main witness is someone who's going to tell you that they've been arrested five times, that the night in question they had a crack pipe in their pocket. But who do you think was going to be in the crack den when that guy at the defense table shot the deceased? So yes, I'm telling you right now. And Anderson, those of us who are old enough to remember John Gotti in that trial, who put him in prison? "Sammy the Bull" Gravano. He killed 19 people. So I mean, it's a hurdle, the Michael Cohen thing, but it's a hurdle that's gotten over. COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) large hurdle. AIDALA: Yes, but they got over it. COOPER: The "Sammy the Bull" hurdle. AIDALA: He was convicted. HONIG: To be clear, he conspired 19 times. He didn't shoot everyone. I mean, let's be fair to "Sammy the Bull." AIDALA: That he admitted to. HONIG: Right. AIDALA: That he admitted to. He knows what he really did. RAWLINGS-BLAKE: (INAUDIBLE) comparison. JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: But the thing with Michael Cohen, the question that the prosecution is certainly going to ask the jury is, yes, he was an a-hole. Yes, he was obnoxious. Yes, he was a squirrel, whatever that means. AIDALA: Thank you. I don't know about that means. [20:10:01] TOOBIN: Who was he doing it for? For whose benefit? Why was he so energetic? COOPER: Right. And by the way, who employed him for years and years and wanted him to be like that? TOOBIN: Exactly. So I think many of us here, I know Elie has, I had my own dealings with Michael Cohen when he worked for Trump and he screamed at me in a similar way. But it was very clear to me that it was because he was advocating for Donald Trump. And that's going to be the argument to this jury. AIDALA: Yes, but advocating, and you're right, he was advocating. But you - I say things of clients, but the client (INAUDIBLE) tell me to say, the client doesn't even know I'm saying, I'm advocating. And I would think one of the defenses here is going to be like, hey, Michael Cohen was a lone wolf. Michael Cohen, he had such a vested interest himself in making Donald Trump the president, because probably in Michael Cohen's mind, he thought he was going to be the attorney general of the United States of America or be on the Supreme Court of the United States or become a billionaire himself. So I think the defense has to embrace Michael Cohen's abrasiveness, embrace his lone Wolf attitude and say, Trump didn't tell him to do this. He was doing this on his own. COOPER: But ... COLLINS: But Keith Davidson did not testify that today. Keith Davidson testified that Michael Cohen made clear in every chance he got that he was working for Donald Trump and that he was doing things on his behalf. AIDALA: But of course, that's his strength. COLLINS: I'm not done yet and he also ... AIDALA: That's what "Sammy the Bull's" saying, hey, the boss told me to do this. COOPER: Let her ... COLLINS: I'm not done yet. He also testified that Michael Cohen, it was very clear, was acting on Trump's behalf, that Michael Cohen would not be able to act with his own authority, that he was acting on Donald Trump's authority that was given to him. COOPER: Yes. Let me - Jeff, I want to read part of the gag order ruling where the judge addresses Trump's claim that reposts of his comments or retweets are not violations, which is an argument Trump has made ad infinitum for years now. The judge said, "It is counterintuitive indeed absurd, to read the Expanded Order to not prescribe statements that Defendant intentionally selected and published to maximize exposure. This is not to say that a repost will always be deemed a statement of the reposter, as context is directly relevant. However, here, under the unique facts and circumstances of this case, the only credible finding is that the repost constitutes statements of the Defendant." You think this ruling is significant and also what occurred today is historic. TOOBIN: I think it is historic and I think we need to pause and recognize what a big deal this is. Not just in this trial, but in the in the broad scope of American history. Donald Trump today is a convicted criminal. This is not a civil judgment. This is not a slip - slap on the wrist. This is a finding of criminal contempt that had to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt and that's what the judge did. Will the voters care, beats the hell out of me. But this is something that I think is worth recognizing that has never come close to happening before in American history. COOPER: Elie, do you see it that way? HONIG: Yes, I think it's a fair point by Jeff. I think we had a very powerful ruling by the judge. I mean, we're waiting on this thing and the judge came through with, I think, exactly what he needed to do to reassert control of that courtroom. I mean, Trump had run wild with this, violated nine times. There's going to be a hearing on Thursday. I'm sure there will be four more violations. There's four more at issue. I'm sure the judge will find three or four of them. The judge had to get control and he's run a very good trial so far. He's run an efficient trial. He's keeping things moving within the courtroom itself. It's quite orderly. But Trump was going nuts on the outside and he was flagrantly violating this gag order. The judge put his foot down. And let's see what happens from here on out, because now the judge has said, if you do it again, I reserve the right. If necessary, he says, if necessary, big if, I will imprison you. But let's see, because Trump hasn't violated this thing in five or so days, so new record, I guess. SCANNELL: But just to ... COOPER: Yes, go ahead. SCANNELL: ... to the - to give a sense of how this judge runs this courtroom, he spoke and he said, I found Trump had violated the gag order nine times within the first 10 minutes, said, handed down the order, and then it was back to business, bring the jury in. So until you read the order, you didn't see the strength of the language in there. He just did it very matter of factly off the top and then brought the witnesses in and kept the jury and the case on track. COOPER: We're going to have more of this in a moment. We're going to take a quick break. A closer look next also at the trial transcript, including more on the testimony of Keith Davidson about Michael Cohen and his recollection back in 2018 of his first encounter with him. Also tonight, tension growing at Columbia University. There's a video we've just gotten of what it looks like right now on campus outside Hamilton Hall, which is the building that has been occupied by protesters. Protesters seem to have formed a barricade of sorts with themselves, with hundreds of NYPD officers just steps away, poised, it seems, to take action. We will be covering all of it in the hours ahead. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:18:31] COOPER: Looking at New York's Morningside Heights neighborhood and Columbia University, hundreds of New York police officers have gathered on Broadway outside the university, just steps away from Hamilton Hall, which is the building that protesters occupied late last night and continue to hold on to. We're going to continue to monitor the situation, break in with any new developments as they come in. Back to the trial, going through Attorney Keith Davidson's testimony, as we've been discussing already, it's not hard to feel the looming presence of Michael Cohen or anticipate how his testimony and demeanor may land with the jury. They got a pretty good sense of it today. But it was out there already back in 2018 with CNN's Sara Sidner talked to Davidson about his dealings with Cohen. He told Sara then that his first contact with Michael Cohen was in 2011, when Stormy Daniels asked Davidson to demand a website remove the story of her alleged affair with Donald Trump and Davidson called Cohen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What was that conversation like? KEITH DAVIDSON: Well, I think it was a lot of chest-pounding to the best of my recollection. It was a lot of how dare you and we'll chase you to the ends of the earth, and this is not a true story, and we're going to come and get you. And we said, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold your horses, and that's not at all the reason for our calling. And we said that Ms. Daniels does not want this story up and we're going to do our best to take it down. (END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Joining us now with more of what Keith Davidson said on the stand today, CNN's John Berman who has the transcript that gets released late in the day. So Davidson recounted that 2011 phone call on the stand today. [20:20:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. He said much the same thing on the stand that he said to my morning partner, Sara Sidner right there. He recounted being called initially by Gina Rodriguez, who was Stormy Daniels' publicist. And Keith Davidson said, "Gina called me up to tell me that 'some jerk called me and was very, very aggressive and threatened to sue me, and I am - I - would you like, Keith, to call this jerk back?'" The prosecutor asks, "I hate to ask it this way, but who was that jerk?" Davidson responds, "It was Michael Cohen." And then a little bit later, Davidson testifies, "I called. I was transferred to Michael Cohen. I introduced myself. And before I could barely get my name out, I was just met with like a hustle barrage of insults and insinuations and allegations. That went on for quite a while." Steinglass, the prosecutor asks, "What was the gist of what he was accusing you of?" Davidson says, "I don't think he was accusing us of anything. He was just screaming." And Jeffrey, I know you've reported on Kaitlan, I know you probably had a relation with Michael Cohen way back when. I mean, I covered Trump way back to 2012, and this is how Michael Cohen would interact with you when he spoke to you. It was generally screaming. COLLINS: Well, and Trump's attorney, I should note, was grinning at points when he was - when Keith Davidson was testifying that. I never saw Trump himself laughing, but even Trump's team was laughing. I mean, everyone who knows Michael Cohen knows how Michael Cohen is. And as he was saying that, when he - they had to say, you know, I hate to ask you a silly question, but who is that jerk and he made clear he was talking about Michael Cohen. It did kind of prompt a round of laughter in the courtroom. COOPER: By the way, that's the prosecution who's going to be calling him as their main witness, so - which is ... HONIG: Well - I mean, the jerk and angry and aggressive stuff that that's not good, but what's even a bigger problem for the prosecution is that this same witness said - that later he was talking to Michael Cohen and said, "I don't believe a word really that you say." I mean, if he's mean or a jerk, fine, who cares? But if the prosecution's own witnesses are saying, I don't believe a word this guy was saying to me. David Pecker earlier said he's prone to exaggeration. The banker who started off today said he basically lied to me about every aspect of this transaction. He was going around his wife's back, didn't tell me it was political. So the defense on closing, you guys - I mean ... AIDALA: So, yes, I mean ... HONIG: Stephanie and Arthur, you would have a field day with this. AIDALA: ... what you do, just the logistics of it as a criminal defense attorney, I'm old school. I'm not very digital. I'm very analog. So when these things are happening, I have a file that says Cohen on it, right? And all of these little lines, I'm just (INAUDIBLE) or I'll find the transcript that night and I just put it in, put it in, put it in, put it in. And then whatever it is, a couple of days - a week before Cohen's up there, you just start - trying to lock Michael Cohen. The way the prosecutor is laying this foundation in your cross- examination, you have to lay the foundation. And you did speak to Steinglass, and you did speak to this one. You did speak to that one. And then you can stick it up his nose in summation and just say, folks, we're going to go piece by piece. All of the prosecutor's witnesses. This isn't me, Mr. Aidala, telling you their witness is a liar. This is their witnesses telling you their witness is a liar. COOPER: But Mayor, the prosecution is clearly trying to get ahead of this, of his credibility issues, by trying to get as much corroborating evidence in as possible and that's why you have these documents that are not the most exciting things to look - hear about on the stand, but they actually back up some of the things Cohen is saying. RAWLINGS-BLAKE: A lot of this has been boring, but it is laying the foundation brick by brick. And that foundation seems to be very, very strong because they know at the top is going to be a very shaky witness. They can say he's a jerk. They can say he's a a-hole. They can say he's aggressive. He was Trump's bulldog and he was acting just in the way that Trump wants his current attorneys to act in very aggressive ways. So they are building this foundation, I think, very well to be able to support what Michael Cohen is going to say. TOOBIN: The classic prosecutor line in response to the attacks on a cooperator like this are, the - he's supposedly a liar. How can the prosecution ask you to rely on a witness like this? And the prosecutor says, we didn't choose Michael Cohen to be the witness. Donald Trump chose him to be the witness because he's the one who chose to do all these transactions with him. And, obviously, that doesn't work all the time. But there are lots of people in prison on the testimony of people who are a lot worse than Michael Cohen. COOPER: It's also interesting because, I mean, if I'm a juror sitting on this and just seeing the cavalcade of the AMI people, the Pecker, the Michael Cohen, all these people, the amount of sort of just sleazy underbelly ... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a Mount Rushmore (INAUDIBLE) ... COOPER: Yes. But that is the milieu that Donald Trump has been living in her - his entire life, basically, it seems like. These are the people he's fraternizing with in many - both sexually and socially. RAWLINGS-BLAKE: Allegedly. COOPER: Allegedly, yes. BERMAN: Look. And yes, and there's so much cross pollination every which way with all of these witnesses in all the various stories. Even Keith Davidson was asked about the Access Hollywood tape, for instance. It was very interesting because the prosecution use Keith Davidson to point out that there was a shift when the Access Hollywood tape came out. [20:25:06] Steinglass, the prosecutor, asks, "What impact, if any, did the release of the Access Hollywood tape have on interest in the Stormy Daniels story, so far as you were aware?" Davidson says, "So far as I'm aware, it had tremendous influence." Steinglass asked, "Can you explain that a little bit to the jury, please?" Davidson says, "Before - yes, before Access Hollywood, there was very little, if any, interest from what I understand." And Gina, " Gina Rodriguez, "was trying to sell the Stormy Daniels/Donald Trump story. It wasn't until Access Hollywood that interest sort of reached a crescendo." COOPER: Does it matter, do you think, for jurors that the former president, and I don't know if it's - it probably hasn't been admitted yet into evidence, but I assume prosecutors will at some point somehow, that the former president denies even knowing these two women, Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels. And you've already had David Pecker saying multiple times that Trump would repeatedly ask how's our girl, Karen, and even show that black and white photo of them walking in the White House, and according to David Pecker, at the time that photo was taken, Trump is asking her, how's Karen doing, and David Pecker's answering. I mean, does that - if he lied about that, as a juror, would that impact the way they see the former president? HONIG: For sure. This is important prosecutor evidence. RAWLINGS-BLAKE: And it was entered into the evidence today. HONIG: Exactly. The reason they had that C-SPAN witness and the court reporter was because they're starting to show - prosecutors are starting to show the jury videotapes of Donald Trump saying, I don't know these people, who are these people. And that's powerful for prosecutors because we don't know if Donald Trump's going to take the stand. I'm still on no, firmly no. But you still want the jurors to hear his voice, especially when he's lying. Now, it's not the ultimate end issue, but you want the jurors hearing him lying about what he knows about these people, because you say, why would he lie about this? If he had nothing to hide, why would he lie about this? So it's important evidence. AIDALA: And it's the worst when you're a criminal defense attorney (INAUDIBLE) ... HONIG: Yes. AIDALA: ... because you can't cross-examine it. HONIG: Right. AIDALA: It's your guy. It's a tape or a film or video, it's real. And you're like, wow. So in one situation where I was confronted with this, and it was really horrible evidence, in summation, I just took every single word and broke it down and try to play thesaurus with it and try to change the definition of what the person was actually saying. But Anderson, it is - when you're - I mean, there are times when you're a defense attorney, you just sit there like, oh, geez. COOPER: Yes. AIDALA: Like, how am I - what am I going to do here? What am I - especially when your client goes out of the courtroom and berates the judge and then you've got to go in and you're the lawyer the next day who's got to deal with them. COOPER: Do you want to say something? RAWLINGS-BLAKE: Oh, I was just going to say that the - we're showing that Trump is a liar, liar, liar, pants on fire. And one of the old sayings is, everybody can't be lying. COOPER: At a certain point, yes. RAWLINGS-BLAKE: Yes. COOPER: You can take it for what it's worth. More ahead on the history made in court today. Coming up next, though, the latest from Columbia University, where the school's emergency management team just sent out a text to students telling them to "shelter in place." We'll have live reports ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:32:10] COOPER: Moments ago, CNN learned that Columbia University's emergency management team has texted students to shelter in place. This, as a heavy police presence, has been building just outside the university gates the past several hours, after New York's mayor told protesters who took over a school building, quote, "this must end now." A short time ago, CNN reporters saw the arrival in New York Police Department's Strategic Response Unit outside Columbia's campus on Broadway, where the whole area has been shut down. Several reports now, starting with our Miguel Marquez. Miguel, explain where you are and what you're seeing. MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're at 114th and Broadway, sort of just down from the main gates of Columbia. I want to show you what's happening here. That's a massive number of police officers who are now moving in with the helmets, with the bats as well. And they are lining up on the East side of Broadway nearest the university. What's the mayor and NYPD has said all day is that they needed permission from Columbia to do this. Clearly, they have worked out a plan and they are waiting for that permission. And our Mark Morales tells us that NYPD says or Columbia says that they -- we'll be sending that permission, that letter for them to move in on both the encampments in the main lawn of Columbia and into Hamilton Hall where protesters broke into overnight and have been hanging banners throughout the day. One of them said, intifada, which the White House itself released a statement saying that that's is not a peaceful thing to do and said it was anti-Semitic and terrible rhetoric for them to do. Here at 114, I do want to show you, Ken, if you could just come around this way. There is a small number of protesters here who have been chanting at police who are -- who have shut off 114. But the main brunt of police, the police officers in front of us are keeping this road shut. But the main brunt of police officers, who have the helmets and their bats and flexi cups are on Broadway. Now, the closest way into where the encampment is just down 114. There are gates there that they would be able to get through. The bookstore for Columbia -- Ken, if you could just turn up Broadway here, that's 115th right up there. The bookstore is just up there. There's another way into the campus there. That's a direct access to where the encampment is. And we expect that we will see police moving in in several of these areas. We were up at 116th and Broadway, which is the main entrance to Columbia earlier. And that entrance, it's completely shut down. There was a large number of protesters there earlier. They marched up Broadway. It's not clear where they're marching to. Other protesters have stayed on the Amsterdam side, on the other side of campus. There's another big main gate there. Protesters are there, but that's nearest to where the building they took over is. But it looks like all of the activity and where police will go through is in here. [20:35:08] If I'm looking over here, it does look like police are bringing in even more barricades for hours and hours today. They've been bringing in these barricades to shut down Broadway. Broadway is shut down, both north and south. It's an extraordinary move by police to shut down this major intersection. So they clearly have been working on this plan for some time. It's just a matter of having that legal OK to do it. And it sounds like that is coming very -- students who are on the campus. The only people who can be on the campus are essential workers or students. Students say there's nothing happening on campus right now. It's very tense, but they are waiting like everybody else. Anderson? COOPER: All right. Miguel Marquez, stay right there. We'll come back to you. CNN Reporter Julia Vargas Jones is on the other side of the gates on campus outside Hamilton Hall that is currently being occupied. Julia, explain what the scene is there like right now and show us around. JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN PRODUCER: Sure, Anderson. We are right outside Hamilton Hall. I'm going to step away so you can have a better sense off the scene. This is the building that protesters have been occupying for almost 20 hours now. There's a human chain that's been formed by other supporters of these students and protesters that are inside of Hamilton Hall. Their aim is to not let police get to protesters that are inside the barricade. You can see this pulley system, Anderson. They're putting things in the -- water that's been going up and down all day. I've been here since about 6:00 in the morning and I could only get in because I am a student at the time students were allowed on campus at this point only if you live on campus or you're an essential worker, like you said, can actually be here or enter. There's very few people on campus, and the feeling, as I spoke to students, spoke to three undergraduate students, one of them Jewish, about the feeling of being caught in between what is bound to be a standoff. This, all around here, all of these are dorms. People live here. Students live here. They're just -- you can see people are just watching from their windows, waiting to see what happens. One of them said, you know, we are waiting to see the New York Police Department come in and arrest our -- potentially some of our classmates. Obviously, we don't know who is inside the building. We know that there was a lot of violence that happened to get into it, but some of them, we're hearing, are students, are affiliated with Columbia. And the big question is, what will the university do? COOPER: So, let me ask you, Julia, so it looks like -- VARGAS JONES: It seems like -- COOPER: It looks like there's about, maybe, I don't know, 50 students, or people, I don't know if they're all students, some of them are masked and hiding their identities, standing outside this door. Do you have any idea how many people are actually inside the building, barricaded inside? VARGAS JONES: Yes, Anderson, it's been really difficult to get information from the protesters because they won't talk to the media. So what I have heard and trying to speak to them is a few dozen, perhaps a couple dozen protesters inside. You can see them up there. You can see them up on the balcony. That some of the folks that stormed the building yesterday at about 12:30. Yesterday, by the way, there was also a human chain that was formed by other supporters to try and keep them in there all day. They're having people coming in and out and chanting and trying to prevent anyone else from getting in. COOPER: Let me also ask you, Mayor Adams and police officials said late today that they believe outside actors have co-opted or been involved with the protests there on campus. I know some like experienced protest organizers have been seen on campus. There's videos of that. What, if anything, have you seen or heard people say about that? Again, some of these people are masked, so it's very hard to identify who they actually are. VARGAS JONES: Yes, Anderson. I mean, you're touching on the point hearings (ph). People don't want us to know their identity. There's no, you know, usually we're going to interview someone. I ask them their first and last name. None of that is being shared with us. And, you know, I'm a student. I am a member of the Columbia community, even I am not trusted by some of the organizers here. So it's really difficult to get that kind of information on all we have is what we see. So we have been trying to be here as much as possible to see and witness. And I have been here all day, but this is all we can see. I don't know who the agitators are that I know that have been reports of that. I -- we don't know also because all of these people are inside. They've been coming out. They're thanking the food and the support, and that's it. That's all of the window that we have. [20:40:11] And then we see the mood from other students is basically just -- they feel caught in the middle. They feel like the administration has committed some mistakes in escalating the situation by allowing New York Police Department to come in and arrest more than 100 students about two weeks ago, when the situation was not so dire. And at the same time, they think that this is an escalation on the part of the protesters for a student that's just trying to go to class. This is finals week. We're a couple weeks away from graduation. I'm supposed to graduate. We have no idea what is going to happen. It is obviously a huge disruption, and it also changes the mood on campus. It's not really just the logistics. It's pitting people, it's dividing people and pitting people against each other, Anderson. COOPER: There have been reports on some college campuses of professors, people teaching classes, suggesting classes be on scene of protests in order to show solidarity with protesters. Have you heard of that at Columbia at all? And I'm wondering how that kind of thing is received. Like, to what degree are faculty involved in encouraging this? VARGAS JONES: There have been members of faculty and staff that were, for example, in the human chain that was formed around Hamilton Hall last night. Yes, I didn't see that. I wasn't here, but those are the reports that I heard from speaking to students that were here. And there are classes being held off campus. So all classes will move to a virtual zoom is what Columbia has been doing. But some professors have wanted to have students meet because it is a time of heightened tensions and it makes sense that people want to be together to also kind of figure it out and process all of this. Like I said, people are being pitted against each other. People are backing each other into corners. So, facilitating that dialogue might be important for the community to eventually become to heal, which seems so far from the possibility right now, Anderson. COOPER: Yes, Julia, I mean, I went to college in the 80s, there were, you know, a lot of anti-apartheid protests and encampments on the campus where I went to school at Yale. But it didn't pit students against each other. There weren't, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of disagreements, but there wasn't this kind of animosity and these incidents of, you know, hostility between -- and shouting matches between students. That's got to be really distressing. VARGAS JONES: It is. And we saw right at the beginning of the protest, we saw, you know, Israel flags and U.S. flags being flown right next to Palestinian flags and people in keffiyehs, in the traditional Palestinian scarf. It's difficult to observe that. And just to think, how do you move forward? How can you actually come to a solution here? And standing outside of Hamilton Hall, I don't know what is going to happen. How say these students are removed tonight by NYPD. What happens to the sentiment of all the other supporters? Of course, I'm sure that many people will be relieved to not have these sanctions on campus. But how do we go back to normal? And I think that that's a question that the university isn't really addressing yet. It doesn't seem like there's a plan, and now I'm speaking to you as a student. I haven't heard a plan of how do we move forward from this. I mean, for me, I graduate all of -- along with the other 15,000 people that are supposed to graduate in a couple weeks which, by the way, the commencement structure is already being set up in the lawn right across from here. Clearly, that's what's on the mind of the university. I don't know what happens to the people that have four more years at Columbia. COOPER: Julia Vargas Jones, thank you. Stay with us if you can. Please stay there. And if you could keep that camera live, if you're able to, on the people behind you, that would be great. Charles Ramsey, a former police commissioner in Philadelphia and police chief in Washington, D.C., joins us now. Commissioner, I mean, just from a policing standpoint, does the order to shelter in place from the university to students signal to you that something may happen imminently? CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, it does. I mean, you're trying to keep as many students away from that location as possible. I mean, this action is overdue in my opinion. The university has been very slow in responding to what's going on. There's no longer a peaceful protest, forced their way into the building. They've done damage inside that building. It's time for this to stop. And NYPD will be making entry once they get permission from the university. And, obviously, there'll be some confrontation in there. People in there had been already warned and told to leave. They refused to leave. [20:45:04] I imagine they barricaded doors and so forth. But the police will have to get them out of there as well as dismantle the encampment. COOPER: As we've said, CNN is reporting hundreds of officers from the NYPD's strategic response team are outside Columbia's campus tonight. I know you're seeing the -- I believe you're seeing the images that we are seeing on the left hand side of the screen of police officers. They have a, you know, riot helmets on -- looks like they probably have -- I'm not sure what else they would have on them. What kind of a response unit is that? Do you know? RAMSEY: Well, I mean, most large departments have something very similar to that. In D.C., we call a CDU, civil disturbance units. These are officers that are specially trained for crowd control and events. So that they're all over the city. They brought them in. You can't just strip anyone district because you still have 911 calls to answer. So there's a plan on how many people to bring in from the various districts and divisions they have throughout New York City. They're going to have a significant presence there to take care of this. In fact, you always try to have an overwhelming presence. It really does keep down the possibility of people getting injured. Now, the officers have their full gear on because they're going to get hit with projectiles. There's absolutely no question in my mind about that. This is not going to be easy and it's not going to look very pretty, but they're going to get it done. They'll use whatever force they have to use, but it'll be proportional, but it will not look good, but they will get it done. And this should have been done a couple of days ago, at least a couple of days ago. Universities been behind the curve on this from the beginning. COOPER: Yes. I mean, just from a, you know, tactical concern, the fact that you have people inside that building who have been there all day and people outside passing them things. I mean, we've just seen a bucket with, you know, whatever going -- being on a rope going up to them. And the reporter on scene was saying that that's been going on all day. If somebody inside wanted to have projectiles they could throw at law enforcement as they approach, they seem to have had time to have stuff brought in. If that is what they have, you know, we have no -- I mean, we don't know what their intentions are. There's a law enforcement source, an official -- and a law enforcement official tells CNN that they believe at least half of the demonstrators are not affiliated with the university. Would that surprise you? I mean, how -- and would that change the calculus for a potential law enforcement response? RAMSEY: It does not surprise me at all. In fact, I'd be surprised if the majority were students. Once they get in there, the people who are not students need to be arrested, charged with trespassing, damage to property. And any students that are part of that, in my opinion, should be expelled from the university. You have to make a strong statement. I mean, this is not unlike January 6, where they -- you just bum rush your way into a building, just forcibly take it over. You can't do that. That is not part of the protest that I have seen over the years and the fact that I have benefited from in my career. If it had not been for the civil rights protests of the 50s and 60s, I never would have served as police commissioner in Philly or Washington, D.C. I don't -- I appreciate protests, but lawful protests, not what you're seeing here. This is not lawful. It's got to stop. They got to take the action and they will take it tonight. COOPER: It is interesting, Chief Ramsey. I mean, I was looking up at sort of the history of protests in Columbia and, you know, in the 60s against the war in Vietnam, you did have buildings being occupied and in some cases even school officials being held or not allowed to leave those buildings that were being occupied by students. Negotiations would take place. I think that was the last time that police were actually called onto the campus by the university, I think in '68, to respond to some of that. RAMSEY: Well, you know, I started my policing career in Chicago in 1968, late 1968, became a sworn (ph) member in '71. So I was part of the group that had to deal with a lot of the Vietnam War protests, which got pretty violent at times. And so, I've seen it, and I've seen how these things can spin out of control. And this is a perfect example of something that is really spun out of control. It started off as a peaceful protest. Obviously, there were issues, anti-Semitism and things like that that should not be taking place. But it was relatively peaceful, but it didn't take long before you get outside agitators that attach themselves to legitimate protesters, I'll call that are just there because they do believe in a particular cause. The other folks are there to cause problems. And that's what you have right here. And so you're going to see it when they finally get the word to go in and they will go in and they will clear that building, they will clear that encampment. But it's going to take all night probably to really get it done. [20:50:13] COOPER: Chief Ramsey, hold on for us. I want to bring in also, as we continue to look at these images, the split screen of the hall that's occupied. You see other demonstrators outside forming a line. And then, obviously, you see the the growing police gathering outside. I want to bring in Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, former Baltimore mayor, who's sitting here with us. Mayor, as you are watching this, I'm sure you have dealt -- you've certainly dealt with a lot of demonstrations in Baltimore and even, I'm sure, the occupation of buildings. What do you see? What are the things that jump out at you? RAWLINGS-BLAKE: It's a little triggering because you see what I know is happening. When you have these instances, the -- you know, what the main thing is no longer the main thing. Like what the moral test that people are fighting for is being taken over by outside protesters that I think we're making a mockery of what many of the students are standing up for. A lot of this is pro-Palestine, but also anti-war. That people are very upset about the amount of loss of life. But when you take over the building, you lose that. You're losing the moral high ground. I have to ask myself, when is that worked when you destroy property and take over the building like that? So I think, you know, these outside protesters are co-opting what could have been a useful, productive conversation about Columbia's participation in Israel. And I think a lot of that is lost because of the way that this has really gone off track. COOPER: We're going to continue to monitor the situation around Columbia University. Bring you any developments as they happen. It seems like something may be happening soon. We're obviously going to bring to you live. We're going to also return to today's trial and more of the contest of wills between Judge Merchan and the former president who faces the possibility of jail if he continues to violate the judge's gag order. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: So as we continue to monitor developments at Columbia University, we're also bringing special continuing coverage of Trump's hush money trial. The first criminally charged U.S. president, now, also the first to be held in criminal contempt for multiple violations of the gag order. Nine to be exact out of 10 online posts in question. Judge Juan Merchan making that ruling this morning after taking a week to mull it over. Trump's punishment for attacking expected trial witnesses and others. 1,000 for each violation, the maximum, that's $9,000 in total. For now, there's another hearing scheduled Thursday for four more additional alleged violations. Meantime, the former president has responded online posting, "This judge has taken away my constitutional right to free speech. I'm the only presidential candidate in history to be gagged." He's only right on the ladder, but that's a result of his own actions. And if he keeps breaking the judge's rules, it could get worse. Quoting the judge now, "Defendant is hereby warned that the court will not tolerate continued willful violations of its lawful orders and that if necessary, it will impose their incarceratory punishment." I want to go to Miguel Marquez. It looks like the police may be moving in at Columbia. Let's go back. Miguel, what are you seeing? (OFF-MIC) COOPER: And Miguel, if you can hear us? MARQUEZ: I can hear you. I can hear you. COOPER: Go ahead. MARQUEZ: Can you hear me? COOPER: Yes, I got you now. MARQUEZ: So on Broadway, police have just moved us over to another location. On Broadway, you can see a large number of police, but they've just brought in many, many dozens more. You can see actually they're coming back toward us now. Dozens and dozens of police officers with the riot helmets, with their batons and with the flexi cuffs moving down 114 toward Broadway. Now they just moved down this way. [20:55:01] The closest you can get to where the encampment is, if you would come over here, Ken, is just down here, all the way down 114 on sort of the middle of the block between Amsterdam and Broadway. That's the closest you can get. That seems to be where police are setting up in the largest numbers. It seems that police here can -- actually come over here, this is actually interesting. So police are both on the streets. They're also on the sidewalk because a lot of this is student housing in here and students have come out to see what's happening on this side. There was a small knot of protesters on 114 on that side. It's a very chaotic situation, but it does sound like Columbia, which clearly had had it with the protesters once they didn't leave after the deadline yesterday at 2:00 p.m., and then took over a Hamilton Hall. They've been working with NYPD today clearly to sort this out. We expect that at any moment, they will have the legal authority from Columbia University in the form of a letter asking NYPD to come in and asking media -- police to come in and clear the protesters. This is interesting. So this is a building across the street from Columbia and police are now making entry into that building. It's not clear what's happening. Officer, do you know what's happening here? Why are they going in that building? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). MARQUEZ: So it sounds like this may have been a situation where students came out of a dorm, mixed it up with police and then police are now moving into that building to try to keep those crowds from hassling them. This was filled -- just a few minutes ago, this was filled, this 114th Street here, was filled with students and it is -- police have now moved everybody out back into their dorms and off the streets here. So clearly, they are -- it's one more step they are taking to lock down this entire area before they move into Columbia University proper to clear both the encampment -- COOPER: Yes. MARQUEZ: -- and Hamilton Hall. COOPER: And Miguel, hold -- well, let us know if anything develops. I just quickly want to go to our Shimon Prokupecz, who is nearby your location, but just a different vantage point. Shimon, tell us where you are, what you're seeing? SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So, we're on Broadway, Anderson. We're actually in an area where it's completely frozen, but we've been able to stay here because of a business here. We've been on their property because the police several times have asked us to move. So we're able to stay here. What's going on here is you have a group of protesters that have gathered here on 113th and Broadway. Police have been making several announcements for them to disperse, to leave, and so far they have not moved in to make any arrests. What's significant here, Anderson, is if you look at the shot that we have up here now, those are the search teams. They were some of the first officers to respond here. I would expect them to be some of the first officers inside the encampment. They are lining up. They were here earlier lining up. They left to go deal with something else and they have since come back. They have been discussing the strategy, the planning here. Their chief telling them, when you go inside, put your visors down because we expect to get things thrown at us. COOPER: Hey, Miguel -- PROKUPECZ: What you're also seeing, some of these other -- COOPER: Let me just quickly ask you, we're seeing on the right hand side of our scheme. We're seeing your shot on the left hand side and the right hand side, we're also seeing one of the Columbia gates with protesters sort of on top of it looking in. Are those -- do you know where that is? And is that near you? And are those protesters who are not able to get onto campus because they're not students? PROKUPECZ: I don't know, Anderson. COOPER: OK. PROKUPECZ: I don't know if that's for me, but I don't know where that is. COOPER: OK. Sorry, but -- PROKUPECZ: So -- COOPER: -- continue with what you're saying. I don't know where that is. Yes. So, the officers that are gathered here, it appears that they're here more to sort of protect the perimeter, because we're seeing people arrive here, protesters in the area. There are barricades everywhere, and officers just keep continuing to arrive. I mean, this is such a massive response. And now you're seeing here more surge. They're moving in, Anderson, now. We're seeing the surge officers here move forward. The other officers are now moving forward. We could see them moving. We're trying to get through some of these vehicles here that are blocking us with the police, appear to be moving. We're trying to get a sense of exactly where they're moving to. It's not entirely clear. COOPER: So, Shimon, can you tell us what street you're on? PROKUPECZ: So I'm now on 114 and Broadway. COOPER: OK. PROKUPECZ: and it seems the officers here -- we're trying to not get thrown out of here on this. COOPER: OK. PROKUPECZ: And so that's why I'm sort of trying to -- COOPER: All right. So let me just tell you -- our viewers, Shimon, that the gate we're seeing on the -- Shimon, on the left hand side of your screen is at 114th and Broadway. … The Source with Kaitlan Collins Aired April 30, 2024 - 21:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [21:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: …What you're seeing, on the right-hand side of your screen, that's another entrance to Columbia, a gate that's been closed. Protesters cannot get into, I assume, because they're not students. Identities are being checked. That gate is at 116th in Amsterdam Avenue. So that's at a different side of Columbia. Go ahead, Shimon. Continue to tell us what you're seeing. VOICE OF: SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, the significance here, being the strategic response officers. We're seeing more arrive now, and get in formation. The question now, obviously is when do they have the green light to go in? We don't know. We are expecting it at any moment. And we keep seeing the officers move around. But it's not entirely clear where they're going, so. COOPER: OK. Let me just-- VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: Anderson, we're just going to walk this way again. COOPER: All right. We're going to check in. PROKUPECZ: Because we don't want to get thrown out by officers (ph). COOPER: Shimon, keep us informed. We're going to check in with Julia Vargas Jones, who is on campus outside Hamilton Hall. PROKUPECZ: Yes. COOPER: Julia, I'm just wondering if any -- how are you -- what have the last few minutes been like, anything you've been seeing? JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN REPORTER: We saw a large movement, Anderson, of students all the way to the 114 gate. That's the one that Shimon was mentioning. There is police presence over there. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: On that side, you see people just walking, trying to see if this -- trying to figure out where police will come in from, and where they will be the safest, honestly. A lot of the -- a lot of the students that went that way, that kind of like dispersing a little bit now. VARGAS JONES: I think it was maybe a bit of a false alarm. Obviously, students are hearing inside, what we're reporting, what other outlets are reporting. Everyone is kind of just trying to figure out what happens next. And as they're scrambling, there's movement. There's a lot of running and stopping, and people asking, where's the police? This is why I was trying to figure out where Shimon is exactly. I believe we're just quite exactly in the -- in our diagonal here. COOPER: So, Julia? VARGAS JONES: So that's 114th-- COOPER: OK. VARGAS JONES: --on that side. COOPER: Yes, that's actually helpful. VARGAS JONES: That's Amsterdam. COOPER: OK. That's helpful. So, if you could tell us, so to your right, is the 114th gate on Broadway. Is that correct? VARGAS JONES: Yes, that's 114th. That -- I can't see that far. COOPER: Right. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: But there is -- there was a crowd of, a rush of, people that ran that way. COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: For a bit. COOPER: And then the 116-- VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: When we heard that NYPD were moving in. COOPER: And then Amsterdam is which direction from you? VARGAS JONES: Amsterdam is, is right here. So, this is the corner, where this building -- and I'm sorry for the turnaround here. I'll have my colleague, Kareem (ph) help me to show you. So, this is Hamilton Hall, right? So, Amsterdam is right on the other side. Shimon and others, our colleagues that have been live, from the outside of campus, they've been able to see the banners and all the color from Hamilton Hall, on the Amsterdam side. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: That's what they're seeing. Just over here, there's a wall. So, we can't really see what's going on right outside -- right outside the gates. I have -- I'm a little blinded in here. And honestly, all of these students will be in a corner, once police comes in. There's nowhere for them to go. It's a wall. It's a barricaded building. And then, I showed you before, that up here we see -- we see residences, students on the windows, just waiting to see what happens. And I want to pivot a little bit more, to the other side, just so you have an idea of the layout here, Anderson, is that these are tents that showed up this afternoon, moved from the south lawn, where all of this began, really a couple weeks ago. And this is where the rush has been going on. People were just kind of running out towards 114th, which is a gate -- all gates are closed, except for one actually. I don't know. Probably our colleagues on the outside will have a better sense of what it's like out there. But there's with only one gate open, everything else is closed. This is residences. I don't know where people will go, once police comes in. COOPER: Right. Julia, standby, appreciate what you are doing. I want to go to Miguel Marquez, where his location is the right-hand side of your screen. Miguel, I think you're around 114th and Broadway. Talk about what you've been seeing. Last we saw you, police were moving into what we believe was a dorm building that's slightly off campus. VOICE OF: MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Turn, Ken (ph), turn. COOPER: What's going on? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Anderson. Turn the camera around here, Ken (ph). [21:05:00] This is what we are seeing right now, just massive numbers of NYPD going in with helmets, many of them with batons and Flexi-cuffs. They are streaming in off Broadway. We're on 114th, just east of Broadway, so between Broadway and Amsterdam. The closest access to where the encampment is, is on just off 114th here. Around the corner from us, on Amsterdam, is where Hamilton Hall is, and where protesters have remained at that gate, the main gate at 116th and Broadway. We were there earlier, and there was nobody there. It doesn't seem that there's any activity there, right now. They blocked off that entire area. Broadway, this major road, in New York City, is blocked off for several blocks between 113th or so, and 120th, in both directions right now. And police clearly getting ready to go in. I've covered lots of this sort of stuff, around the world. And I've never seen this many police moving into one area. COOPER: OK. Let's talk about this shot we're now-- VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: It is not clear how many-- COOPER: Hey, Miguel, this shot we're seeing now was-- VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Yes. COOPER: --where is this? Control Room, where is this? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: This is 100 -- 114th Street, east of Broadway. So, they are as close to campus as you can get. There is an entrance to campus, just-- COOPER: OK. Miguel what we are seeing? We're seeing students-- VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: --200 feet (ph) from where we are. COOPER: We're seeing students trying to move metal barricades, around one of the entrances. That's that entrance on Amsterdam, and 116th, I believe. So that's? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: That-- COOPER: Go ahead. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: That sounds right. There was a -- there was -- there's been a protest there all day today. Dozens, when I got there. By the time we left to go chase other protesters, there were several dozen protesters outside Amsterdam Avenue. They had barricades set up there. There are very tall fences. Those gates are -- the barricades are short. But the gates around Columbia are about 10, 12 feet high. So it'd be very hard for them to get over that. Police are now going in. They are now going in to the Columbia campus on -- I can see them going into the campus on the 114th Street side. Even more, more police are even pouring into this area. (CROSSTALK) COOPER: Shimon. I want to go there, Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon, what are you seeing? PROKUPECZ: Anderson, we are right with them right now. They are moving in. They are walking. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: These are the search teams that we were with earlier. PROKUPECZ: They are now making their way towards the campus. We are just behind them. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, just stay, stay. PROKUPECZ: OK. They are walking in to the campus. They have now made a left here, Anderson. Evelio (ph), come over here, if you can get that shot. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, you have to stand on the side. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: No, no, no. We're fine. We're getting on the side. We're good. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand beside the tape. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: But that's the -- that right there-- COOPER: Julia Vargas Jones. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: --Anderson, you could see. COOPER: Go ahead, Shimon. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: They're making a left. That is them making their way. COOPER: OK. I want to go to Julia Vargas Jones, who's on campus, outside Hamilton Hall. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: That is them making their way into campus. COOPER: Julia, what are you seeing? VARGAS JONES: Anderson. Yes, we're good. We are hearing a lot of metal clanking. Some people are saying there might -- they're hearing ladders. I'm not sure. I can't see. Like I told you, I can't see anything. COOPER: There were gates being moved around. VARGAS JONES: Past that wall. 114th is this way. COOPER: Are you pointing to the 116th? VARGAS JONES: Right here, we're looking at 114th. COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: This is the 114th entrance. There they are. There they are. This is -- this is the library. This is the main library at Columbia. Butler. COOPER: So that's the police-- VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: And they've giving orders to disperse. COOPER: --on campus? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Police is on campus. The New York Police Department is on campus. COOPER: So where are they -- they're coming in. Now that they're in campus-- VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: They are walking. COOPER: --they're from 114th. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Yes. They came from another gate on 114th. And they're coming -- they're coming in our direction. So, I'm going to step to the side. Make sure that we are OK. But there's an order to disperse. Lots of -- lots of student media here, Anderson, you can see. But this is what we thought would happen. This is what we've been waiting to happen, really, all day. COOPER: And in terms of where Hamilton Hall is, can you just point in that direction? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: So. COOPER: Is that where they are headed now? VARGAS JONES: Yes. So, police is here. They're turning towards me. They're coming -- this is Hamilton Hall. COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: So. COOPER: So, Julia, you obviously need to get wherever you need to get to not-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear now. Let's go. COOPER: --getting. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I just -- I just -- OK. We're moving. We're moving. We're moving. We're moving. OK. So, here they are. VARGAS JONES: We're going to see. Come this way Kareem (ph). UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move into Columbia, and are heading towards-- VARGAS JONES: Show them. Show them. I got -- yes, OK. So, this is happening. They're going up the lawn. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Actually they're going to come where we are. We got to get out of the way. COOPER: So, Julia, about how many-- VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: They're staging just across the lawn. COOPER: --about how many police do you see? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: From -- [21:10:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: NYPD KKK. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I see a few dozen, only a few dozen for now. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: It seems like they're -- maybe they're staging. Stay wide. That I believe they're staging over here. And just around that -- in that corridor, in between. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). VARGAS JONES: And it seems like they're getting ready to come this way down. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Can you show this, Kareem (ph)? Just going down here and into Hamilton Hall, that's right there. COOPER: OK. Julia, stay with us, as long as you can. VARGAS JONES: They're still chanting. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: They're still. COOPER: So, that's -- there is Hamilton hall that you're showing us with. So the students are still outside. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Protesters are still chanting. They're outside. COOPER: So Julia-- VARGAS JONES: The protesters are still forming that human chain, Anderson. I showed you earlier. COOPER: So, it looks like, right now, the police are essentially staging. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: And police are just getting closer slowly. COOPER: Are staging outside kind of regrouping, at a slight distance from Hamilton Hall outside. Is that correct? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Yes. But it seems like there's still -- there's still different groups of police that are coming. I see another few dozen coming in. I don't know if our colleagues outside are seeing more people coming in, more officers come in. COOPER: OK. Let me quickly check in with Shimon Prokupecz. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: But that's what it looks like. COOPER: OK. Shimon, tell us where you are and what you're seeing. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: So, Anderson, the buses have just moved in. This is where they will likely take the -- once they start making arrests and start bringing people out. Those buses have now arrived. We're seeing additional Technical Assistance Response Unit is here. They're going to help with video and other things that perhaps the police will be looking to seize. So, they're now heading in to the campus. But its significance here, obviously, these buses now arriving. This is where they will bring the people that they arrested, eventually. They will bring them on the buses. And that's it, it seems, at this point. They have not moved in any extra officers into the campus. Out here, it's interesting enough, there's, you know, people just out here watching what's going on. And you're seeing some of the officers by standing around the buildings, keeping an eye on things. But at this point out here, what -- things are fairly under control for the police. And then, look, so much planning, Anderson, went into this. It's very obvious that the NYPD spent some time planning for this today. Certainly, the escalation when the -- when the group broke into the buildings. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys walk (ph). VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: OK. They're asking us, I think, to walk. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible). COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: OK. Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't push them behind (ph). VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: OK. Come on. We're going to walk. Come on. PROKUPECZ: Come on, Evelio (ph) let's walk. OK. We're going to walk. OK. We're going to walk, Anderson. It looks like they're going to bring us closer. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One by one. PROKUPECZ: Come on. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. PROKUPECZ: They're going to bring us closer. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go together (ph). COOPER: All right. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, you can get moving out. COOPER: Shimon, we'll come back to you. Let me quickly check in. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: Anderson, they're going to bring us closer. COOPER: All right. As soon as you get there, let us know. We're going to check with Miguel Marquez. Miguel, what are you seeing? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Yes, we are basically in the same place. But 114th Street. COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Hundreds of New York police officers, who are -- who had helmets and batons, entered the grounds of Columbia University. There are now buses parked outside on 114th Street-- COOPER: All right. Miguel, I want to go back to Julia. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: --to make any arrests. They're moving media now. COOPER: Miguel, I'm going to go back to Julia on campus. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julia, can you hear? COOPER: Julia, what are you seeing? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Can you hear me? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. COOPER: Yes. Julia, you're on the air. What are you seeing? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. VARGAS JONES: Can you hear me? COOPER: Julia, you're on the air. Can you hear me? VARGAS JONES: Guys, so police is moving right now. Police -- we're getting as close as we can to be safe, Anderson. But this is -- police are coming in, to where we just were, our last live shot. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're going in with them right now. VARGAS JONES: Live position. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're going in with them right now. VARGAS JONES: That was our live position. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there are they are. VARGAS JONES: Hamilton Hall. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NYPD officers making their way in front of Hamilton Hall. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: And they're telling people to disperse. I think you can see that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: They're moving -- they're moving protesters out of their way. They're moving students out of their way. Sorry, we're trying to get this. Just closer, over here, over here. We'll bring here. They're just pushing people out. And they're placing themselves between all the media and the protesters and that human chain. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible). UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). COOPER: So, Julia, there's still there's students there, linked arms, in front of the doors. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). COOPER: And then, there are protesters inside the building as well. Do you see protesters in the windows of that building at all? Or had they shut the windows? [21:15:00] VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I don't see them. (PROTESTERS SINGING) VARGAS JONES: I see them -- I see -- up there. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Clean up there, move -- behind that Palestinian flag, there's someone there. (PROTESTERS SINGING) VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: That's observing everything that's going on. That's where-- (PROTESTERS SINGING) VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: There they are. There they are up -- up there. (PROTESTERS CHANTING NYPD KKK) VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I mean, this is what you guys-- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible). COOPER: And they're chanting NYPD KKK, comparing the New York police to the Ku Klux Klan. Is that right? (PROTESTERS CHANTING) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Off the sides. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I believe that's what they're saying to NYPD. I believe that's what they're saying. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) COOPER: Bring in Chief Ramsey. Chief Ramsey, just in terms of tactics, they're clearly just trying to secure the area as much as they can, move off people, anybody who's not protesting, just trying to get a kind of an area of calm, correct? VOICE OF: CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, you're correct. I mean, you can see that the police are organized. They have a plan. They're trying to clear away as many people as possible. They'll be making entry (inaudible) people that are inside, and also with the encampment, start to dismantle that encampment. But they're trying to get some semblance of control in that immediate area. So, they're doing exactly what I would expect them to do, at this point in time. This is going to be a long drawn-out process. It's not going to end anytime soon. This is probably going to take most of the night. COOPER: Yes. VOICE OF: RAMSEY: Before they get it lately locked down. COOPER: We've seen-- VOICE OF: RAMSEY: And everyone inside that building. COOPER: Chief, on the right-hand side of your screen outside, we saw somebody being led away with their hands, zip ties. John Miller, former NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism is also monitoring this with us. John, what stands out to you at this point? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF AND LAE ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think what you're seeing is the end of a process, which is going to be the beginning of another much more tactical process, which is the NYPD has been putting this plan into place, over the last couple of days, particularly last 24 hours, when students took over Hamilton Hall, by going inside, barricading the doors, smashing the security cameras inside, to limit the view of the school, and their security people, to what was going on. The discussions between the NYPD and Columbia have been what are the tactics that are going to be used? What is the plan? Will it be in the daytime or the nighttime? But the NYPD wanted Columbia to agree to be the complainant, to be the one that called the police, to be the one that asked for this action. So, what we're going to see now is they will set their police perimeter, around the perimeter that the students had set, outside Hamilton Hall. They will issue the verbal warnings that you are to disperse, to the people outside. Those people will have a choice, which is they can stay in place, and face arrest for criminal trespass, or disorderly conduct. Or they can disperse. And they'll get that chance, when those warnings are given. Then they've got to make entry. And that's going to require the Emergency Service Unit, whatever cutting tools they need to use, to get past barricades that have been put in place. And then, those people, who are inside the building, will be arrested, charged with criminal trespass, suspended by the school, where they contemplate further action, including expulsion. But as Chuck Ramsey said, a moment ago, this isn't going to happen over five minutes. The warnings have to be given. They have to be given a chance to disperse. The entries have to be made. The building has to be searched, quite a large building, top to bottom, to look for people in place, people who may be hiding. Then the building has to be cleared. All of those people, who are charged, or arrested, are going to be taken to the Mass Arrest Processing Center, or MAPC, as they call it downtown. They have buses set up, where they'll begin to process them even before they're brought down there. And some will be issued summonses. Some may be held over for court. But this is an operation that as we look at it at 9:18 PM, is going to go on for the next several hours at least. COOPER: John, I want to bring in Judge Shira Scheindlin, former federal judge, not only for a legal perspective. But you actually were a student at Columbia in 1968, on campus, when students took over a building on campus in '68. Is that correct? VOICE OF: SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: Yes, indeed. They occupied Kent Hall, which was where the East Asian Institute was. SCHEINDLIN: And I was a student studying Chinese and Japanese history of all things. And so, having occupied the building, we were expelled from the building. We had classes in the park. And it was a dangerous situation, I remember it well. [21:20:00] COOPER: What is it like for you, to witness this, both from a former student there, who-- VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: Yes. COOPER: --lived through in '68, which I think is the last time police were called in to the campus. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: Right. COOPER: Other than recent days. And also just from the legal standpoint, as a judge. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: Well, from a legal standpoint, to take your second question first, it's one thing to have peaceful protests. But there are time, place and manner restrictions. And that's the beginning. And then there's civil disobedience. And if you do that, you can expect to be arrested. But at the third stage, there's simple lawlessness. And what troubles me about this is when you have people breaking and entering, property damage, trespass, and potential violence, that's a line that's been crossed. And I think the action being taken now is absolutely correct. This cannot be tolerated. And I'll tell you the real story is graduation. Columbia's graduation is May 15th. And it's always right where these tents are. And they're prepared. There are students, who have spent collectively, a billion dollars in tuition, who are graduating. And their families deserve to see those kids graduate. Those kids want to graduate. This timing is this was time for graduation. There's no question in my mind. If this protest was November, it could have been handled. But it's graduation time. So, there's lots -- there's lots going on here that doesn't immediately meet the eye. COOPER: I want to go back to Julia Vargas Jones, who's on campus. Julia, what's going on? VARGAS JONES: Mic? COOPER: Yes. VARGAS JONES: Look, Anderson, police has pushed all student press and all other students into -- is this Jay -- Jay -- John Jay Hall? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. VARGAS JONES: Yes. So, we are kind of pushed against -- this is where the cafeteria is. I'll show you there's, you know, this is where -- sorry, we're trying to figure out. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: They're going in to this huge -- this is also a student residence. I mean, you can see some faculty here as well. They've just cleared this entire area, where we walked past earlier. So, they just cleared all that and secured all that. And my understanding is that there's more police coming towards them (inaudible) they shut it. Are they -- are they closing those doors? I believe they're closing those doors, and keeping to that inside. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Folks, clear now. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Barricading them inside. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're in the wrong place. You got to go. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: OK. Which way should we go? Which way should we go? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All out the door (ph). VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: We entered through those doors. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please go and clear. Thank you. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: OK. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, please exit from here. VARGAS JONES: We'll leave. So, we're being told, Anderson, to leave. We have to leave towards-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you have to run. VARGAS JONES: I've been told that we should be able to go back into the Journalism school. That's what I was told to, to return to. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, thank you. VARGAS JONES: But the gates are now closed. The only way is through where -- where NYPD is taking us. COOPER: And Julia, so are other students-- VARGAS JONES: Inside the cafeteria. COOPER: --who have been told to shelter in place, are they staying inside their dorms? Are they allowed to come out now? Or they -- they all -- everybody's staying inside? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: I mean, no they're not allowed to come out. Everyone is supposed to be inside. They are-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody here, we're going to walk you outside this way. VARGAS JONES: Everyone is supposed to be inside. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you. Thank you guys. VARGAS JONES: OK. Going to be walked out towards, I believe, this is 114th that we're heading towards. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go. This way. We're moving this way. VARGAS JONES: It's very confusing, Anderson. I'm not sure. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right ahead. Let's go. Right ahead. Go. Let's go, please. VARGAS JONES: I'm not sure that there is a united message here. I'm so-- COOPER: So, you're heading out now to -- Julia, you're heading out to 114th and Broadway. Is that right? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Frankly no one here is left to document whatever might be-- VARGAS JONES: I'm heading towards those gates. They're opening the gates now, for us all, to leave. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone's barricaded inside of the-- VARGAS JONES: I'm not sure it's, you know, if they escort us out. We obviously will not be able to get back. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's sort of where they're going to head us. But I don't-- COOPER: OK. And as far as you can see, Julia, at Hamilton Hall? I don't know if you can still see Hamilton Hall. Is there any movement over there? Or you can't see anymore? VARGAS JONES: I'll show you what's happening from Hamilton Hall. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Now you see those officers coming out on the left side of the screen. They're coming from the direction of Hamilton Hall. COOPER: OK. VARGAS JONES: Right behind these -- these bleachers here, that's where Hamilton Hall is. Right there, that building up there, that's Hamilton Hall. We can't -- we don't have-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we can see that. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: We can't see it anymore. COOPER: Got it. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: And police is just pushing us out. COOPER: OK. Julia, remarkable work. I really appreciate it. We'll check in with you momentarily, as soon as you get situated. Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon, where are you? And what are you seeing? [21:25:00] VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: So I'm -- we're on 114th Street. We're just the -- NYPD has put us all in an area here, in expectation that we will see some people leaving. We're here on 114th Street, out -- just outside the gates, here in the front. And we're just waiting to see if anyone comes out. We have seen some very -- we have seen heavily-armed officers, and some big trucks arriving here, which is pretty significant. And right now, much of the law enforcement is just standing around. And as some of the students, who live in the dorms here-- COOPER: Shimon, let-- VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: --are just standing around. COOPER: Shimon, let me -- Shimon, let me ask you. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: They're not doing anything -- go ahead, Anderson. COOPER: We're looking at a shot, from Spectrum News New York 1, of officers, it looks like, gaining entrance to a building, on some sort of a crane, or looking into a window with a -- also riot shield, held up to the window. Are you seeing that? And do you know what that is? VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: Not on my side. I can't see. I know what that is. I have a shot of it from the feed. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: That is the Emergency Services Unit. I think John had been just talking about them. I believe that's who that is. They are the specially-trained heavily-armed, who go into these types of situations, barricaded situations, situations where people are inside homes, inside buildings, and are refusing to leave. And they are trained, specifically trained. You see there, one of them is holding a ballistic shield. You see several other officers there standing. I'm not sure about what those officers are doing. But this here now, this shot that I'm seeing from Spectrum News, you're seeing one of the officers, with a ballistic shield, the other officers are looking in to see -- to see what's in there. But these are the officers that are going in to this building, where several of the protesters broke in early this morning, and trying to arrest them. Remember this-- COOPER: So, is that the Hamilton Hall building? VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: That's what it appears to be, from-- COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: PROKUPECZ: --from what I can tell, Anderson. COOPER: Let me -- Shimon, let me bring in John Miller. John, with your experience with the NYPD, I mean, they're on a rather large armored vehicle that has sort of a crane-like arm that's brought them up to that window. And now, it looks like they're gaining entrance into that window. VOICE OF: MILLER: Yes. So, that's a BearCat. Normally, that's a bulletproof rescue vehicle that they use when people are pinned down by gunfire. Not the purpose here. The purpose is to use that feature of the vehicle, where it has this basically, cherry-picker type device that can reach up to a second or third floor window and allow entrance. They are anticipating, based on the information and the observations they've had, that the -- that the doors on the bottom level are heavily barricaded. So, they'll be entering from -- I think I lost the mic here. Hang on. They'll be entering from the bottom. But they will also be entering from above. And that shield is basically just because if they confront somebody, and something is thrown at them, sprayed at them, tossed at them, then they want to be prepared. COOPER: The -- it seems like John, they would be entering this. I mean, it looks -- do you -- I would imagine they're going to be entering this building from multiple locations, I mean. VOICE OF: MILLER: Yes. COOPER: One of the concerns that law enforcement has expressed is, how many of these people, inside this building, are actually students? And if they're not students, who are they? VOICE OF: MILLER: Yes. So, they're going to have to sort people out. And they're going to have to sort people from who is a Columbia student, who is an outsider, will they be charged the same or differently, depending on, if they were a student or not. But their first thing is to collect those people, put them into custody, get them to a central location, and then start to move them out. Because it's going to take a while, to clear that building, because they're going to take everybody into custody that they can see, who doesn't belong there. But then they're going to have to search the building to find out who may be hiding in some closet, some basement, some room, under a bed, either because they're frightened, or because they're trying to avoid the police. COOPER: John, as we continue to watch this, Tim Naftali, a Columbia University professor, and CNN Presidential Historian, also is joining us. Tim, I mean, you know Columbia well. I'm wondering what you make of what has been going on there, and what you're seeing right now? VOICE OF: TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I'm terribly concerned. And I'm pretty -- I'm very sad. I understand why the University saw the takeover of Hamilton Hall as an escalation. NAFTALI: I look forward to learning why they decided to move now. The building was taken over earlier today. Let's make clear to everybody. [21:30:00] VOICE OF: NAFTALI: Freedom of speech does not include vandalism. It does not protect you, if you take a building, or occupy a building. So, this is not -- what the students engaged in, the demonstrators, was not the exercise of their First Amendment rights, today. They escalated the situation. My concern, however, is that when you bring the police in, there are unintended consequences, I'm sure. And I worry about students getting hurt, not deliberately by the police. But things can happen. And it's very difficult to control a situation like this. John Miller will know better than me. But I worry about the health of my students. And I worry about the health of students, who've made mistakes. I am saddened, was saddened by the escalation that the student demonstrators engaged in today. It really was unjustified. Regardless of the moral outrage, one should have, about the effect on civilians in Gaza? That is not a justification, for engaging in violent acts, here in New York City. So, what has happened today is terribly worrying. And what we're watching now, because of the unexpected, and the role of accident could turn out very badly. So, I worry about the health and safety of the students, and of the police too. COOPER: Judge Scheindlin, when you were on campus, as a student back then, I mean, and there were -- there were the -- it was anti-war demonstrations. Was there this pitting of students against each other, which is what we have been seeing, this animosity of how Jewish students have been treated and others? VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: No, I don't think there was. I think there were activists and less activists. And the less activists simply stayed away from the protesters. But I don't think there was that internal dissent that you're seeing now, which is so pronounced. COOPER: Was there widespread support on campus in '68-- VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: I think there-- COOPER: --for the protests? VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: I think there was more widespread support than there is now. Now, it's a very different situation. It's very polarizing, as you can imagine, given the context of these protests. COOPER: Mayor, as you look at this? VOICE OF: STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, (D) FORMER BALTIMORE MAYOR: As I look at this, it's a hard balancing act, to gain control. But then, you just don't want to over-militarize your response. So, when I see this number of police officers, you just want to make -- you're praying that they get it right, that there're just enough officers, that they're able to control the situation, and not too many officers that it causes another escalation, where you see people responding to the response of the police. And that's what I thought we were seeing a little bit of that when you saw the barricades being thrown around, because that's what -- that's what happens. We've seen it in other jurisdictions, where the response, by the police, causes an escalation. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: But do you think that Columbia administration really had any choice at this point? There has been breaking into property, occupying a building. I mean, do you think they had any choice but to call on the police at this point? VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I think calling the police was appropriate. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: OK, yes. VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I think restoring order is appropriate. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: Absolutely. VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: I think that the challenge is once it rises to that level, making sure that you get it right. COOPER: Yes. VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: And protecting life at all costs. VOICE OF: SCHEINDLIN: Agree. COOPER: Miguel Marquez. Miguel, what are you seeing outside? It's interesting, Miguel, watching the officers, as they're gaining entry from that BearCat. They are not in full-padded riot gear or anything like that. They are relatively, it seems, I mean, they're wearing riot helmets and they have zip ties, but it doesn't look like they are, you know, there -- it seems like they're going in, in a very particular way. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Right. We're not -- we are not seeing any officers in full tactical gear. We're seeing all officers in helmets and batons and the cuffs. The BearCat that you're seeing, Hamilton Hall backs on to Amsterdam Avenue, which is sort of open to the city. That has windows there that they can get up to, and get into Hamilton Hall. They have -- the video that we've seen from inside Hamilton Hall, they were barricading doors down at the -- at the ground level. That's why they were pulling food up, all day long and drinks up to students all day long at Hamilton Hall. So, they are trying to make entry there. There are other ways into Hamilton Hall as well that police can probably make -- take advantage of. And right now, Ken (ph), look at this. There's -- there's yet another bus. This is the fourth large bus we've seen coming down 114th. The gate we are next to is the main gate that police officers entered in. Since we last spoke, dozens and dozens more police officers have gone -- gone in. [21:35:00] And Ken (ph), if you can just look down 14th, so these are all residents dorms, along 114th Street, police have taken up positions in front of the doors of every single domicile on the 114 Street, to keep students and residents in. You can hear some chanting, sometimes. We can hear a little bit right now. But we haven't seen any of the arrestees, anybody arrested coming out of 114th. There is -- oh, now we are seeing them actually. We are seeing people arrested coming up, down the streets, coming down. Another -- was another entrance down 114th, and they're starting to bring people out of the Columbia grounds, down 114th Street, and putting them on these buses that they've brought in to here. I saw -- I kind of, three or four. It is not clear how many people are participating in this. The assumption was there was about several hundred, maybe 300 or so in both the encampment, and in Hamilton Hall. I will tell you. This all kicked off two weeks ago, when there was one encampment. Police came and made arrests. They arrested 108 people. 70, 7-0 of those people were not Columbia students. So, I think police are going to be, and Columbia is going to be looking for that today. Clearly, police now control everything inside the campus. They have moved us, the media, down to this main gate, where they made entry into the campus. And they are arresting people inside, and then bringing them out another gate, just down the way. I see another one, perhaps two more people, who are in cuffs, being led to buses, right now, coming out of Columbia. So, we have a handful of arrests so far, less than a dozen so far, from this side anyway. It sounds like there were some arrests. But those were, it sounded like, those were protesters, who were outside the gates, on the Amsterdam side, who were arrested a little earlier tonight. Anderson. COOPER: John -- John Miller, as you watch this. And we're watching this split-screen, both on the left, of police, on the left side of the screen, in case you're just joining us, entering via a BearCat, through a window into Hamilton Hall, from Amsterdam Avenue. On the right, we're seeing another vantage point by the gate, one of the many gates into the Columbia campus. We no longer have a camera with eyes on the front entrance to Hamilton Hall, where there had been, John, a line of protesters, who had not gone into the building, who were sort of forming a human barricade. Those were likely, if they chose to stay there, were likely the first arrest. So, we can show the video from earlier, of what the scene was like outside Hamilton Hall, from our reporter, who was on the scene, Julia Vargas Jones, and her camera-person. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they came from a-- COOPER: So John, the -- what's not clear is if the -- if they've also now breached the entrance of Hamilton Hall, the front entrance. This is from moments ago, when the police were first approaching Hamilton Hall. Whether the people are being led out right now, are just being some of those who may have been arrested, who were out, sort of forming that human barricade on the front steps of Hamilton Hall. It's not clear to me whether police have actually entered Hamilton Hall through the front. We know -- we see them going in through a window, on what I guess is the second floor. But we don't know about the front, do we. VOICE OF: MILLER: No, because our vision is limited, because they have taken the media out and basically taken them off campus. But we do know that, they have the cooperation of the Columbia campus administration and security. So, when it comes to Hamilton Hall, they're able to enter from multiple sides. They'll have the keys. They'll have the access cards that will get them in. And what you want to do is, you want to come in from above, the demonstrators, if you can, at the same level they're at, and from multiple sides. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) VOICE OF: MILLER: So, wherever people attempt to flee or hide, they should be running into police, who were there, who are going to try to control that ground. But to get to the core of your question. Their plan was to form their perimeter, and then give people a chance to walk away, so that -- the group of students that were ringing the building, front with their arms locked, they'd be told, here's your warning, those who want to walk away can walk away now. Those who want to remain will be arrested. So, they get that choice. So, what we're likely seeing is people, who walked away, who are not charged, and then people who you're going to see in those Flex-cuffs that look like zip ties, those will be people who were taken into custody, because they remained after the warning. And then, police will remove whatever barricades are at those front doors, with ESU, the Emergency Service Unit, and go in through the front, as part of their kind of multi-entrance entry into this building. It's interesting about-- COOPER: Miguel Marquez. VOICE OF: MILLER: --how history repeats itself. COOPER: Hey, John, I want to check in with Miguel. Because Miguel, I understand you're seeing a lot more people being arrested now. [21:40:00] VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Yes, we are. And police are moving us again to the area, where they are coming out. I'm actually looking (inaudible) a bit of a squeeze here, it's going to get interesting. Police are now moving us down to where the people being arrested are coming out. If you look at these buses, you can see the number of people inside the buses there, many of them with Columbia sweaters, a lot of them wearing keffiyehs. I see at least -- watch your step. Watch your step. I see at least a dozen people in that bus. This bus has lots of police officers, who are with arrestees on this bus. It must be in the dozens, at this point. And here are more people, who are coming out of Columbia, right now. They are still moving us down. We're just going to keep moving, as quickly as possible. (PROTESTERS CHANTING) VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Here comes -- somebody else who has been arrested, two more. Two more arrestees. Police are still moving this down farther. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's two people in front (ph). VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Thank you. And this -- this is where they seem to be bringing out most of the arrestees, right through here, and they want to put us -- it sounds like they want to put us in these pens, right across here. We're going to stand right here for now, and see what happens. Watch your back there Ken (ph), move over to your -- they're going to move us, I think, in a second here. But we will stay here for now. But yes, so this -- this gate is as close as you can get to Hamilton Hall on 114th. They move -- moved us closer, basically, to Amsterdam Avenue. Look down this way, Ken (ph). If you'd look down, down 114th to Amsterdam, you can see. I can't tell if those are protesters or people just onlookers. But there is a massive number of people, down on Amsterdam as well. And I'm looking to see, because folks are running in the direction. It looks like it's just media coming down here, right now. This gate is the one that's going to see most of the protesters coming out, those who have been arrested will be coming through this gate. COOPER: And where are the-- VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: There are three or four buses here. And we've already seen, probably two to three dozen people arrested at this point. COOPER: Also watching this is Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, former Mayor of Baltimore. You worked, Mayor -- they're moving reporters, it looks like, to a location, to actually see people being brought out. VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: So, in the Command Center, what is happening is they're trying to figure out what are the flashpoints, what are the potential flashpoints? And we saw those students-- RAWLINGS-BLAKE: --and protesters arm-in-arm. That is a potential flashpoint. That means if the reporters were there, with the cameras on that, that's an opportunity for people to react-- VOICE OF: RAWLINGS-BLAKE: --to what you know is going to be an ugly scene, with the police probably having to drag the protesters, if they did not move on their own. What we will see probably later, because I'm sure they're all wearing body cameras, is exactly what that looked like. But by moving the press back, taking care of that situation, and only showing them when they are coming out, they removed a potential flashpoint, a potential opportunity for chaos in that area. COOPER: John Miller, it's interesting to see so many people hiding their faces, on campus, and now in the streets. I assume, some of these people in the streets are not students, because they weren't on campus, and weren't able to gain access to the campus. But I mean, is that an issue for police when, or even school administrators when protesters are not allowing themselves to be identified? VOICE OF: MILLER: Well, it's been interesting, because I was up at Columbia, last week, I was up at City College last week. And a lot of the demonstrators, even when the press who is there, our own cameras, which are there, to cover the demonstration that they are putting on, to bring attention to this, attempt to shoot them, they pushed the cameras back, they covered their faces, they're wearing masks. I think that they -- they have some belief that if there is something going on, like this, right now, and they're caught on video, that video will later be used as evidence in court. So, you've seen a lot of hoodies, a lot of masks, a lot of concealing. But at this point, as we learned, going by those buses, there's people on the buses, and there's police officers with them. Each one of those police officers may have two or three of those arrests, and they're going to have to articulate what they saw, and what they did that caused that arrests, so that they can testify to that. And that will be on their body cameras, and those people will be identified. COOPER: Hey, John. Columbia University just released a statement that reads in part, I'm going to read it to you right now. "A little after 9 PM this evening, the NYPD arrived on campus at the University's request. This decision was made to restore safety and order to our community. [21:45:00] We regret that protesters have chosen to escalate the situation through their actions. After the University learned overnight that Hamilton Hall had been occupied, vandalized, and blockaded, we were left with no choice. Columbia public safety personnel were forced out of the building, and a member of our facilities team was threatened. We will not risk the safety of our community or the potential for further escalation." The statement goes on to say, "We believe that the group that broke into and occupied the building is led by individuals who are not affiliated with the University. Sadly, this dangerous decision followed more than a week of what" has been -- "what had been productive discussions with representatives of the West Lawn encampment." The statement continues, "The decision to reach out to the NYPD was in response to the actions of the protesters, not the cause they are championing. We have made it clear that the life of campus cannot be endlessly interrupted by protesters who violate the rules and the law." And John, certainly that is what has occurred on campus, people drumming all hours of the day, chanting. There are for -- hundreds of protesters, there are thousands of students at Columbia, trying to study for exams heading toward graduation. VOICE OF: MILLER: Well, it's really interesting, because if you compare this to 1968, as Shira Scheindlin was talking about, the 1968 disorders at Columbia University, which some people call the Columbia Riots, started with the takeover of Hamilton Hall, by Black students protesting a segregated gym that was being built in a park, a public park, White students that were protesting the Vietnam, then in support of that took over three other buildings. The college administration was very hesitant to call in the police. COOPER: John, I think you lost your mic. VOICE OF: MILLER: Yes. And I -- second time, sorry. The college administration was very hesitant to call in police. And looking back on it, a lot of people felt they waited too long. And when police did come in, it was brutal. It was the Tactical Patrol Force. That's when they worked with helmets and wooden Nightsticks and dealt with resistance, in very different ways than they do today. And I think, they are looking back at history, and saying, what are the red lines? What are the points where we engage? And that statement from Columbia tells us a lot, which is we were negotiating with the students on the quad. We were in talks that had been going on for days. And we had held off on calling the police in for a second time. COOPER: Getting some of the protesters, I believe, the shot is. This is our -- this is not on the campus itself. This is just outside the campus, protesters still lighting flares. Julia Vargas Jones is joining us. Julia was on campus, when police moved in. She and her camera-person were then moved off, off-scene. She's now outside the campus. Julia, explain where you are and what you're seeing. VARGAS JONES: Yes. Anderson, I am -- I'm at 114th. This is 114th and Amsterdam Avenue. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Police just forcefully removed the protesters. They were sitting down on 114th, refusing to leave. Instead of arresting them though, they are just pushing them out. I think you can see that. I hope you can see what's going on. They were students that were making a human chain, outside of Hamilton Hall. They were pushed, just like we were, out to 114th Street. And now, they are being forcibly removed. COOPER: So that's interesting, Julia. So, these were the protesters, who had the human chain, who you were showing us earlier, on the steps of Hamilton Hall. VARGAS JONES: Yes, exactly. Exactly. COOPER: You're saying they weren't actually arrested immediately. They were actually just kind of herded off campus. And that's who these people are? VARGAS JONES: Yes. That's -- that's who these people are. And they also -- they stopped on 114th, on their way of -- from being forcibly removed. They stopped here. They were on the street on the ground, Anderson, locking arms again, trying to show them that they will not leave. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: But there's only so much that you can do against the NYPD. COOPER: So they've now been pushed off the street. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: To-- COOPER: You're at 114th and Amsterdam, I can see. So, they were pushed off. Interesting that they were not -- they were not arrested, and still haven't been arrested. VARGAS JONES: No, they were not arrested. They were just pushed out. They're out here, with everyone else. So, myself, hundreds of other students that were pushed out off campus. We're here on 114th and Amsterdam. I can't go back inside. A lot of people can't go back. 114th is completely closed off to traffic and (inaudible) traffic. We just saw a father, with his toddler daughter, trying to get home. Eventually, police let him go through. [21:50:00] But it's a nightmare, for everyone, anyone who lives here on the Upper West Side. There're lots of people trying to get from one side to the other, absolutely impossible. Now, we've been, like I said, we've been pushed on to Amsterdam. (inaudible) will eventually get back into campus. I'm at the -- at the Graduate School of Journalism. And we were told that we would have access back to campus. I'm out here, Anderson, with just my phone, AirPods, and a battery pack. So, I don't know how long we'll actually last. All of our things are inside. All of our belongings are inside. We didn't plan to be kicked out. We were told that we would have guaranteed entry, especially media. Students of this school would be able to go back and forth from campus and out. NYPD, saying absolutely not, there's no way that could happen. Just to understand why, I want to show you a little bit more of the action here. Can you get up here, Kareem (ph) a bit, and just show a little bit? VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: There's everything is stopped. And now, the protest has basically moved all to outside. COOPER: Yes. VOICE OF: VARGAS JONES: Everyone that was inside is now outside, the chants are the same. It's the same people, it's the same keffiyehs. Now we're just on 114th and Amsterdam. COOPER: Julia, you may only have an AirPod and a cell phone and a battery pack. I mean, you and your camera-person are doing a great job. We're going to continue to check in with you. Julia. Juliette Kayyem, CNN National Security Analyst is joining us as well. Juliette, I mean, it's kind of, the left side of on your screen, I mean, it's kind of a remarkable shot, a gate to Columbia. VOICE OF: JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. COOPER: You see some protesters. I don't know if they're students or not, who are on the outside. Well I'm not sure actually what side of the gate they are on. I assume -- our camera's on the outside. So, I assume maybe -- I don't know where they are. But with a flare-- VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Yes. COOPER: --on one of the front entrances to Columbia. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Right. This is -- so I've been on the phone with people at Columbia, and gotten family ties to it. I know people that are working for the University. This is -- this is, in an odd way, it's an odd way to describe it. This is a bit of a de-escalation, given the escalation that happened, which is to tell the students, to disperse first. This is the difference than what we saw two weeks ago. What the police need to do in all these situations, if they are used, which I have been saying, for the last two weeks, as a last resort, which is the case here, is you got to give these students an off-ramp. And it looks like that is actually what happened. They are off the campus. And now they are in public property, in which this kind of -- this kind of behavior, if it's disruptive, will be arrested. And you get the pool of people that the police are going to arrest on campus to be relatively small. And I think that's what you -- at least from the pictures, and what our reporters are saying, that is what you have that -- none of this is good or bad. COOPER: OK. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: But just in the pool of bad things that could happen-- COOPER: Hey, Juliette. Juliette, sorry. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Yes. COOPER: Let me just jump in. I just got a clarification that the shot on the left is actually at City College. That's not a Columbia gate. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Oh, OK, good. COOPER: So, that's where the confusion has been. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Yes, I didn't recognize it. Yes. COOPER: Yes. So, that is at City College which is about-- VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Yes. I've been on the campus. COOPER: --20 blocks north-- VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Right. And so this is-- COOPER: --from the Columbia gate. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: This is the dynamics of what we're experiencing now. Which is of course, all these schools are feeding off of each other, or the students are. So, of course, especially in New York, students or -- other campuses are going to have to pay notice. I want to do some good news here. Because this is stressful. And you do worry about, whatever you think about these kids, or these students, no one wants them dead, or violence to happen. And that is, as a parent, I'm saying that, as a parent of college students, I'm saying that. This protest, however, became a trespass and a criminal trespass. That is not appropriate. The college gave many off-ramps, and now is resorting to this. In the good news phase, I just have to say we are seeing, as I've been reporting for the last week, on sort of what's happening at these colleges and universities. There actually is tremendous de-escalation going on throughout the nation. So Columbia remains an outlier. The people -- and so hopefully, they can de-escalate this. But we do know that when colleges and universities are giving students off-ramps and engaging, they de-escalated it. And you look at the Wesleyans, the Browns, the Northwesterns, others. And so, as a national phenomenon, we are -- we are looking at it as sort of the attempt to isolate the problem at Columbia. [21:55:00] And then for the non-students, which it seems to me, schools have got to get better about access control. It's ridiculous that you have so many non-students able to penetrate these colleges and universities that they're under this threat environment, and to arrest those. But I don't -- I don't love any of this. But in terms of what I like what I'm seeing, they started with de-escalation -- de-escalation, dispersion. You saw students dispersing. They did not want to get arrested. And now, you've limited the pool of people, or students, or non-students that the police have to interact with. It's in my world, you're just looking for better news over bad news. And so far, the dispersal of this is going, as we would anticipate, which is, sort of a do not escalate too soon. This is what the police did a couple weeks ago. And we're seeing sort of lessons learned. Now, we can figure out how everyone got themselves into this position, another time. But nobody needs to get hurt tonight. That's the most important thing. I say that as a Security Analyst and as a mother. And so hopefully, we will continue to see this. COOPER: It is remarkable, just the reports of the number of non- students, who have been-- VOICE OF: KAYYEM: Yes. COOPER: --arrested, and who have been involved in these demonstrations. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: It is -- it is so inexplicable to me, knowing what all of these colleges and universities have known that they were, you know, access control became sort of not -- not the first option. Police are not the first option. Your first option is control the perimeter and protect all the students. And in particular, with students who aren't engaged with this at all, right? We're in finals. We have graduations coming up. And so, the basic security and safety protocols that we owe the students, and in particular, students that may feel intimidated by some of these protests, was not afforded. And I should also say protections for the protester. I have been on air. Lawful protest is OK. It's what we expect in at colleges and universities. We shouldn't lose our head about it. We also have to protect those students, who are lawful. This, overnight, got escalated. And the goal is to de-escalate it. And it's the responsibility of everyone-- COOPER: Yes. VOICE OF: KAYYEM: --that that's the primary goal. COOPER: Let's check in with Miguel Marquez, who has been outside monitoring police activity. Miguel, what are you seeing? Where are you in? And what are you seeing? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: We are on 114th, just near Amsterdam Avenue. Police have moved us down here. This is the gate, where most of the people being arrested so far have been coming out. We haven't seen any in the last 20 minutes or so. But if you look down Amsterdam Avenue -- sorry, guys, it will be a little -- little bit of a trick. There are protesters all the way down there. One of the buses -- there was one bus filled with arrestees that tried to get out. That's where Julia was, where they sat down and tried to block that bus from getting out. They cleared them out, and moved them on another bus, then went up Amsterdam Avenue. And that's where the gate on Amsterdam Avenue is. And Hamilton Hall is just, it's just up -- I'm going to step in front of the camera. MARQUEZ: It's just up that way on Amsterdam Avenue. And that's where most of the activity on that side of campus is. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: Down here, we still see buses that are waiting for more people, who have been arrested to be picked up. This comes at the worst time for Columbia. It was very clear they wanted to move this out. They had just finished their last day of classes. They're in the middle of finals. And commencement is in a couple of weeks. And as you know, that entire area where the encampment was, and the entire central lawn of Columbia University is set up for a massive commencement. Many of the people graduating this year, the administration has pointed out didn't have their high school graduations because of the Pandemic. So, they just really did not want to allow this to happen. And tonight, so far, while we hear chanting, up and down the streets. And if you could look at -- Ken (ph), if you -- if you move across to the -- to the buildings over here, you can see the number of police officers, who are still remain at the doors of every single one of the buildings, along 114th, because people are chanting, people are upset, along this corridor. Lots of students in these buildings. And they are chanting their displeasure to what's happening here. Hold on one second. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NYPD does not use tear gas, OK? VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: So-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And give distraction to-- VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: So, so-- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. VOICE OF: MARQUEZ: --NYPD is coming around to say that no tear gas has been used. Apparently, there's some reporting on social media that somebody may have used tear gas. They do say that they used flash -- flashbang grenades, or other sort of means, to deflect or to surprise anybody that they may encounter. But they do not use tear gas. They said they used -- they're using flashbang grenades in there. So, that gives you a sense of what is happening in Hamilton Hall, as they -- as they make their way in, and try to make arrests, and bring order back to Columbia University. Anderson. COOPER: Miguel, we are staying on this story, as it develops, throughout the night. Right now, I want to hand things over to my colleague, John Berman. CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip Aired April 30, 2024 - 22:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [22:00:00] … JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST (voice over): Thank you so much, Anderson. And on your screen right now, you can see what we have been watching develop over the last hour or so. Police have moved into Columbia University to move those pro-Palestinian demonstrators out of the building that they have occupied since last night, hundreds and hundreds of law enforcement you can see have swarmed onto the campus or, in the case of the screen you're looking at right now, the picture you're looking right now, just off campus. We have seen law enforcement move people onto buses, presumably under arrest. We've also seen the police simply move people off the campus and let them go on their way. We have seen no violent encounters between police and protesters as of now, and we have seen police move into Hamilton Hall itself. That is the building that was occupied overnight by these protesters. Let me read you a statement from Columbia University, which explains how this all has been taking place over the last hour. The statement reads, a little after 9:00 P.M. this evening, the NYPD arrived on campus at the university's request. This decision was made to restore safety and order to our community. We regret the protesters have chosen to escalate the situation through their actions. After the university learned overnight that Hamilton Hall had been occupied, vandalized and blockaded, we were left with no choice. Columbia public safety personnel were forced out of the building and a member of our facilities team was threatened. We will not risk the safety of our community or the potential for further escalation. The statement continues, the leadership team, including the board of trustees, met throughout the night and early into the morning consulting with security experts and law enforcement to determine the best plan to protect our students in the entire Columbia community. We made the decision, they say, early in the morning that it was a law enforcement matter and that the NYPD were best positioned to determine and execute the appropriate response. This is important, what they say next. We believe that the group that broke into and occupied the building is led by individuals who are not affiliated with the university. Sadly, this dangerous decision followed more than a week of what had been productive discussions with representatives of the west lawn encampment. They go on to say they've been moving people out all day, resulting finally in what you are seeing on your screen tonight. This is just one of the images that we have our eyes on right now. Again, this is just off campus. Let's go right to Julia Vargas Jones, CNN producer who was on campus for most of the day, right in front of Hamilton Hall, but was just moved off. Julia, tell us what you're seeing now. What's happening where you are? JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN PRODUCER: John, I'm just going to swing around a little bit so you understand where we are. This is Amsterdam Avenue and this is 114. So, up this way, I don't know how much you can actually be here. I'm sorry. We're just kind of walking through the crowd. This is where we were pushed. We were pushed out of Columbia University through those gates and pushed into this kind of -- it's not really a kettle because we're not getting arrested, but we were pushed into this area with barricades, myself, I'm a student at Columbia University and hundreds of others. People that were protesting inside were also pushed out. People that were making this human chain outside of Hamilton Hall, they were pushed out. They made another human chain outside 114th Street, and, eventually, NYPD just forcefully removed them. They did not get arrested. This is the key difference here. They looked like students to me, I can't tell you if they were or not. And then we got pushed into this little area. Right now it's a standstill. If I can go in to, you know, get my things. It's very difficult to understand where police wants us to go eventually right now. We're just sitting here at this corner in the middle of the protest with nowhere else to go. Up here, up this way, we have buses, NYPD buses. I can't tell if there are people inside those buses or not moving that way. And then now we see an emergency medical vehicle turning into 114th Street. They are going -- this is the way that they pushed all of all of the protesters and journalists. So, not sure all of this is blocked off and police is not letting us move anywhere else. This is where we have to stay for the time being. [22:05:01] BERMAN (voice over): Julia, hang on one second here, just so people understand. There is Amsterdam Avenue, which runs north and south. There is Broadway, which runs north and south. In between Broadway and Amsterdam is Columbia University, basically between 114th Street and 116th or 118th Street, if you go up a little bit further north of that. So, Julia is on one end of the university where people have been pushed out. Two questions quickly, Julia. One, it looks like it's raining now. If you can confirm, it's raining now, which may have an impact. It may have an impact on the crowds there, the people still outside. And who are the people? You're looking at a map right now, just what I was describing, you can see North, South, Broadway, who are the people standing beside you? JONES: John, there is no nowhere for us to go. I don't think that we can get out of here right now. Look, I see a lot of students, a lot of student press, a lot of people from the journalism school, which is where I what I'm affiliated with as well, and people that were, that were just outside Hamilton Hall protesting. So, it's a mix of, of students, people that were there protesting that we don't know and can't confirm if are affiliated with the university or not. This is just the situation that just pushed us all into the same corner at 114th and Amsterdam. BERMAN (voice over): All right. Julia Vargas Jones, stay safe. Don't go far. Let us know if there are any developments where you are. I want to bring in John Miller, CNN Senior Law Enforcement and Terror Analyst right now. John, I have to say, out of the corner of my eye, I saw you on the phone, which generally means you're finding out information. What's the latest you're hearing on what is happening up at Columbia? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (voice over): So, police obviously swept the group that was in front of Hamilton Hall off. Some of them who ended up on those buses are those are going to be people who are in custody. Those who are swept out through the gates are people who elected not to be arrested and agreed to leave. So, we're going to have some arrest numbers, but probably coming to us later because they're operating out of multiple locations to do that tally. They did make entrance into Hamilton Hall, from what I understand, and this is all preliminary. So you have to assume some of it could change, that there weren't a great deal of people in terms of numbers inside the building. When they made entry, they used distraction devices or what we would call flash bangs. These are things that go flash and then bang so that they could overcome any resistance, booby traps, or anything that was waiting for them inside. And then they did a floor by floor search, which did not produce a lot of people. They are going from the second to last floor now to the top floor. So, the building is nearly cleared in the first instance. They'll do a secondary search just to clean up behind that. But that's pretty much where we are now. So, you know, if you talk about what our reporter on the scene was saying about, you know, people were pushed out, they were put into pens, it feels like, from a tactical standpoint, they want to create a corridor, a portal, so that when they have these people who are under arrest on these buses, that the buses will have a clear path out and that the street will be open and not occupied and they can take them down to this mass arrest processing center. BERMAN (voice over): An unknown number of arrests, you say, so far. Dozens? Hundreds? Any sense? MILLER (voice over): I'm going to -- just based on the visuals, it appears to be at least dozens. That could trip the triple digits because there were a large number of people there. But, you know, as we learned from Ms. Vargas, a lot of them were pushed out of the gates. And those are people who decided to forego the process of being arrested. Now, you know, things have developed there over the last couple of days. Protest leaders from out of town people, like Lisa Fithian, who is the author of the book, Shut It Down, who is very adept at coaching groups on how to do protests, how to do disruption, how to do vandalism and physical damage, how to handle mass arrest situations, have been up there talking to them, working with them. So, a lot has changed over the past 48 hours in terms of where they were. BERMAN (voice over): All right. We are being told dozens have been arrested. That is so far. We also did get word from Julia Vargas Jones on the scene that a lot of people were simply moved away, pushed away. And I imagine it is to an officer's discretion whether to arrest or just remove people from the premises. John Miller just reporting that the police who did enter Hamilton Hall used flash bangs. [22:10:04] They moved through fairly quickly, and there were not a lot of people actually in Hamilton Hall, and they are close, they think, to clearing the building or at least seeing every part of the building. MILLER (voice over): One interesting point to add there, what we're seeing on social media is reports from students saying that tear gas was deployed. The NYPD almost never uses tear gas and saying that they did not use tear gas tonight. I think that's the smoke from the flash bangs that they're probably reading as that. BERMAN (voice over): Yes, and you're looking at police now walking kind of past one of our cameras right there in a mass movement. Unclear whether they are moving to Hamilton Hall or moving away from Hamilton Hall. With us now also is Felipe Rodriguez, a retired NYPD officer. And if you could just explain what John just said to us about using the flash bangs to get in. We did hear from a police spokesman a short time ago who did reiterate what John just said, which is that the NYPD does not use tear gas, but how do you imagine they went through that building? FELIPE RODRIGUEZ, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE (voice over): It's almost like a tactical situation where the almost thing is to get through it safely. So, a flash bang is just a very large concussion grenade, and what it's made to do is disorient the person. So, if they had a preemptive type of tactical thing that they were going to attack an officer, it now makes them also a little bit dizzy because it messes with their equilibrium. So, it does give the officers a tactical advantage. We never want to go in there with the use of excessive force. So, if we can mitigate that from the beginning, it was a good tactical choice to use them. It's just not often seen in New York City. BERMAN (voice over): Shimon Perez, if you are with us. I'm not sure if we have Shimon right now. Shimon, if you can hear me -- SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I am here. I'm here. BERMAN (voice over): Give us a sense of what you're seeing. PROKUPECZ: Okay, so we're on Amsterdam 116, so we're outside Hamilton Hall here. This is where the police went in. You know, it's just such strategic planning that went into this. And you just wonder what, how much time was the NYPD planning for this because the way they came in here just over my left shoulder -- I'm going to try to show you. Can we just show -- I just want to show this side over here. Is there a way to do that? The number of emergency services vehicles. John, I've never seen this kind of response at a scene. I mean, there are at least a dozen to 20 emergency services vehicles here. And then, of course, we saw many of them walk to this heavily armed truck. It's what they call a Bearcat. And then they walked up through that window and then entered Hamilton Hall. It's just stunning pictures, to think that this is a university Columbia, Columbia University, that the police were entering in such a way because the doors were barricaded. The group broke in the morning and it's been there all day. They unfurled flags here with signs here today. They were up on the roof at one point. So, the NYPD really spent the day planning for this and then surged, I mean, hundreds, if not at least a thousand officers here. I mean, you have officers from the search teams. You have officers from other precincts, the emergency services officers. The response was just enormous. And now most of the officers are just standing around. We're seeing some protesters. We're hearing the chants of students, are gathered outside here. Some are up here on a bridge or watching to see what's going to happen and what the next steps will be. But right now, you know, all eyes and everything is on Hamilton Hall as we await to see what the next steps are. Are the police going to bring anybody out from inside? And, you know, you can hear the protesters there. They're shouting shame at the officers every time a group of officers would move through an area. We would hear that shame, shame towards the officers, but, you know, this is such an escalation here. But what started it, we have to remember, is what happened here early this morning. You know, the fact that you had outside groups, the NYPD has said so, the college has said so, the fact that they broke into this hall, the fact that they snuck onto the campus, we believe some of them snuck on around 2:00 yesterday when the campus would allow the press, the media, to get on the campus of the college, they snuck on. And so they spent the morning, early morning planning this and they got inside, and this was a game changer, and just talking to sources all day, John, they were waiting. [22:15:02] They were waiting all day to get word from the college that they could do this. The NYPD wanted to do this. They felt it was necessary. It was needed. And there was a lot of concern that if they didn't do this today, this would only escalate. There were concerns for other members of outside groups coming in, trying to escalate this even further. So, in doing this, I mean, these are going to be images that are going to last a lifetime, right? I mean, this kind of response on a university in the United States, you know, in many ways, sometimes it's just unfathomable in such a, in such a situation. But that's exactly what happened here. The response was -- you know, John, I've covered so many protests through the years here in New York, especially. I've never seen a response like this. They came prepared, they came in force, and they came to send a message. And right now, we're just seeing so many of the officers still out here, standing around, things are calm, people are chanting we could even hear some, it sounds like chants that are coming from inside the campus as the police are just standing around. And right now, really, John, all eyes are on Hamilton Hall as we await to see if anybody is brought out and what the next steps are here. BERMAN (voice over): Yes. Shimon Prokupecz, who's on the street there, near that enormous police presence. I would just note that as big as the police presence and as many of these protests, as we've all covered, one thing that we have not seen here yet, that we often see, almost always see, is a rash of injuries or violent clashes. We haven't seen that yet with our eyes here. That's not to say it hasn't happened, and we won't learn of that shortly, but this has seemed fairly organized so far. Let's get right to Miguel Marquez right now. Miguel, just so people know, it's the right side of our screen where Miguel is. Tell us what you're seeing, Miguel. MARQUEZ: Yes. So, we are on a hundred and 14th Street, just near Amsterdam Avenue. This bus that you were looking at here, this is the second bus filled with arrestees that is now leaving this area. It's heading toward Amsterdam Avenue. When it gets down there, the last bus that tried to get out, you can see all the people on there that are arrested, still shouting, still yelling, many of them wearing keffiyehs. There's a large number of people who are trying to block the buses on Amsterdam Avenue as they get down there. Police move down there, a large contingent of police officers down there to control that crowd so that buses can get out. We have seen dozens of people arrested. The gates just here, where we're standing next to, if you go up that gate and took a right, you'd be basically at Hamilton Hall. So, It sounds like, if there weren't many people in there, that most of the people that we've already seen come out of these gates probably came from Hamilton Hall. What I'm curious about is the encampment. If you went up this gate and went left, you'd end up near Butler Library, which is here, and the encampment, which is in the center lawn of Columbia University. It's not clear how many people they've moved out of that encampment. Ken, if you would just move around, I don't know if you can see it, but there is a large number of police and protesters. They're trying to stop the bus down at the end of the street. The bus has gotten out though, it's not clear. So, there were protesters much of the day -- come back over here. There were protesters much of the day at Amsterdam Avenue. So, some of those people may have been arrested. There were also protesters at the main gate Columbia University main gate on 116th Street about four hours. They just marched off. There were 200 protesters and they just marched off when they went north. It sounds like they ended up at City College, which is about 20 blocks north, and they had the flares and they were they were going to City College. It sounds like it was a bit of coordination on the side of the protesters. Protesters on the 116th side, we were there, they were going through with everybody the tactics that they were going to use tonight and what to do if they were arrested and how it was all going to go. We may be bringing out more arrestees now out of this gate. This is where we've seen most of them come out. Some of them -- no, this just was like a faculty member or somebody who's coming out of the gate right now. There are workers that are coming out as well that we will see sometimes. But most of the arrests we've seen tonight have come out of this gate. We haven't seen any for quite some time now. But there may be arrests around the corner where Shimon is on Amsterdam Avenue. It looks like buses are moving over to that direction as well, so they can bring people out of that area as well. John? BERMAN (voice over): All right. Miguel, keep us posted as to what you see there, particularly if there are more people being brought out or arrested. Let's get back to Julia Vargas Jones to give us a sense, Julia, of what you're seeing. I'm glad we can see you on the right hand side of our screen. [22:20:00] JONES: John, two things. One, we're seeing a staging of NYPD coming out of 114th. You can see here behind me. Right behind them, I don't know if you can see, there are people coming out of windows from, I believe this is Hamilton Hall, coming out -- John Jay, John Jay. I'm sorry, this is John Jay Building. It's a building right next to it, showing just with their phone. This kind of speaks to the whole question, you know, something that I've mentioned before. It's like what does this mean for the Columbia community? And I'm speaking now also as a student here. It is unfathomable that this is happening on our campus, this level of division, this level of -- I mean, I know we said there haven't been violent altercations. That is true. I have not witnessed any violence happening here, but we did just see a bus with people, NYPD bus with people in it, they had keffiyehs on. I don't know, I'm guessing this is the people that were outside or inside of Hamilton Hall that just went up Amsterdam towards, I suppose, Miguel's location just a block north of us. Overall, I mean, now, finally, the good news is that it's stopped raining. So, it's giving us a little bit of a respite. But like I mentioned, we're kind of kettled here, John. There isn't really anywhere for us to go. We're waiting for orders from the NYPD of whether or not we can go back inside the Columbia campus. As of now, I'm really not sure. I mean, I have my student I.D. here and I don't know like what this will do if I can actually go back inside at all. I think we're gearing up to have a long night. And to Shimon's point earlier, this has been so organized and calm. And the level of police presence, you know, is giving me a little bit of flashback to 2020 and covering the (INAUDIBLE) across the U.S., except there are no altercations. There is no violence. It's been very common. Like I mentioned to you earlier, some of the students that did not want to leave the university perimeter instead of being arrested, they were just removed. So, the NYPD just grabbed a couple of people and pushed them out, meaning, I think that there is a level of concern for the optics of this as well. It really is an attempt to -- if this is really an attempt to de escalate, this has to be the approach that they take. BERMAN (voice over): Well, Julia, hang on one second. You may be interested in this information as a Columbia student. We're just getting word that Columbia University has made a request with the New York Police Department to retain a presence on campus through at least May 17th. They say that is to maintain order and ensure that encampments are not reestablished. That was from a letter sent by University President Minouche Shafik to Michael Gerber, the NYPD's Deputy Commissioner of Legal Matters. So, Julia, there will be a police presence at Columbia for some time for several weeks. And I should note that is through what I believe to be Columbia graduation, which is May 15th. So, the police will be there in some way until May 17th. How do you imagine that might go over with your fellow students at the university? JONES: Well, I mean, graduation is May 15th. That is my graduation as well, John. I have family coming from Brazil to come watch me, you know, walk across the stage and get my diploma. But -- and I hope, of course, as everyone does, that this can happen. But at the same time, is there a climate for celebration for graduation to move on? I mean, I think that, you know, I spoke to a lot of students on campus today and people were just feeling caught in between. And I don't really see celebration being something that we flock to in the coming weeks. And if police is going to be on campus, that will even dampen the mood even more. I can't imagine people wanting -- I'm interested to see who will actually attend graduation. Here's another bus. I can't quite see inside, but, yes, it looks like people with their faces covered could be us, another bus of protesters being taken away, presumably arrested. And you hear the protesters chanting shame at the NYPD. It is tough bias (ph), John. BERMAN (voice over): And, again, the news is, is that the New York Police Department will remain with a presence on campus through May 17th. May 15th, of course, is graduation where our Julia Vargas Jones will be walking, earning her degree. I have to say, you've more than earned your journalism degree over the last 24 hours or so, Julia. So, celebration or not, congratulations to you on that and all the work you've done. [22:25:02] We have much more coverage just ahead. We are just getting word that some of the protesters have moved about 20 blocks north. That's what you're looking at right there. That is City College for those who know New York well, the campus there. We're going to get a live report from there right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN (voice over): All right. Welcome back. This is CNN's special live coverage. Police have moved in to Columbia University, entering Hamilton Hall, where protesters had taken over the building, seized the building overnight last night. [22:30:07] The police have now moved through the building and we believe removed almost everyone from inside. We are told there have been dozens and dozens of arrests so far. Based on the buses we've seen leaving, it would be easy to assume that there have been over a hundred arrests so far but we don't have an exact number on that just yet. Let's get to Miguel Marquez who's standing by just on the outskirts of the university and just so people know what they're looking at on the screen on the, well, okay, let's get to Miguel first and then we'll reset with those other pictures in a second. Miguel, what are you seeing? MARQUEZ: Yeah, what you're looking at here is yet another person who's been arrested and brought out from the other gate, the gate that we were at earlier. We're on 114th Street between Broadway and Amsterdam. We're now closer to Amsterdam. We've seen lots of arrestees coming out of here. There's now another arrestee going into a fourth bus right in front of us and it is not clear. I'm watching that gate down there. Police appear to have formed a cordon coming out of that gate and they're pulling people out of, that may be people coming out of the encampment. It wasn't clear to us covering this earlier in the week how many people were in the encampment. They had lots of tents, but we think there were only maybe a couple dozen, few dozen people who were in the encampment. So, far tonight, we've seen in the dozens arrested. I don't think we're at 100 yet, but you know, it's hard to tell. We've seen three or four buses leave here now. There have been some arrests on Amsterdam Avenue, as well, around the corner from where we are, but it seems right now that there are at least several dozen arrests here at Columbia University. I will say two weeks ago when they made arrests, 108 arrests that then kicked off this backlash of encampments across the country, 70 of those 108 were not Columbia students. So, the university, NYPD, looking at that tonight as well. The protesters do seem to have their own coordination. They had been protesting on Amsterdam Avenue for much of the day. They remained there all night, and it seems that some of those protesters that were outside may have been arrested, as well. But there was a large group of protesters who went to the main gate on Broadway, 116th and Broadway. Police then shut down all of Broadway, both North and South, major thoroughfare. Those protesters went uptown, it seems to City College. And so, you had protesters sort of coordinating protests at different colleges all at the same time, John. BERMAN: Yeah, and again, we're seeing pictures up at City College, too, about 20 blocks north of Columbia right now. Miguel, thank you. Stand by for a moment, if you will. Joey Jackson, our legal analyst is here. Joey, we talk about dozens and dozens of arrests. What happens to these people on the buses? What does it mean to be put under arrest for tonight and for the next several days? JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, I think, John, the prosecutor here, Alvin Bragg, has a decision to make. And what that decision is, is what he's going to do. Is there going to be a distinction between students? And if so, do you criminalize this? Or do you offer them some resolution to the case which respects their right to protest, but again, you know, has some semblance of law that has to be mixed into it? And do you distinguish the students from the non-students, right? How they got onto the campus? What specifically did they do? Were they peaceful? And so in essence, what will happen is that they will go to this arrest processing location. At some point, they'll be arraigned. What that means in English is they'll be brought before a judge. They'll be formally charged with either disorderly conduct or criminal trespass or whatever the appropriate charges are, depending upon the specific conduct. At that time, they'll be released. There are bail reform laws in New York. There's nothing violent in nature. That is a blessing, right? We're seeing optics, not of any violence, not of any interactions of a negative variety, but of officers having taken control. I'm sure John Miller can give us a course on how they sat him down and said, look, this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. The optics need to be what they have to be. And I think they did that very successfully. Thank goodness for that. And so, John, what will happen is after their process and release, there'll be a date for them to return. In that interim period, prosecutors will make an assessment as to how to dispose of the case. Generally speaking, on a first arrest, you'll either get a disorderly conduct or something known as an ACD. What does that mean? An adjournment and contemplation of dismissal. You stay out of trouble. You do everything right. Your case will be dismissed. It'll be sealed. You'll go on with your life. That's how generally it'll be done in the absence of any aggravating factors which demonstrate that the protesters at issue did something that was, you know, aggravating other than being in a building, occupying it, and really peacefully protesting in the way they think was appropriate. BERMAN: And on the left-hand side of your screen is City College of New York, CCNY. [22:35:00] And before we had a shot of the arch there, and I'm told by people sitting with me here, that City University is actually often used as a facsimile for Columbia University in television shows and movies. So, if we get that picture of the building back up again, it may look familiar to you. It's actually about 20 blocks north of Columbia where a lot of these protesters have moved. So, that sound, those demonstrations you're seeing right now, not actually on the Columbia campus, which has more or less been cleared out by police over the last couple hours or so. With us here also is Professor Alexis Hogue-Forger, a Brooklyn Law professor, but also someone who did a fellowship at Columbia for two years. And look, there are legal questions. Now, I mean, Columbia faced legal questions before inviting the police in again today. And now, with the invitation for the police to stay until May 17th, there are more questions about how they will treat the situation there. ALEXIS HOAG-FORDJOUR, PROFESSOR: Exactly. And students have, all people have a right to peacefully protest, to speak freely about issues. And their rights do not, you know, go away once they approach this sort of college gates. And here we have quite literally the college gates. And there are sort of measures that a university can take, both private and public. Student speech cannot sort of disrupt or impact the main thrust of a university, which is learning. And this is an interesting period right now in the academic calendar. Many classes have ended. We are sort of in this sort of dead space when students are reading, they're preparing for exams, they're turning in papers. My understanding is that many of the classes have moved online, virtually. BERMAN: Hybrid classes for the last week or so. HOAG-FORDJOUR: Yes, it's the last week or so. Some classes are not even meeting. Many classes -- many exams can be taken virtually, not on campus. We dealt with this in academic institutions during the height of the pandemic. And so, I think, you know, what's happening, we've sort of recognized it, that with police force being on campus until May 17th, Columbia really wants to have a graduation. They wanted to clear off that lawn. That beautiful green lawn is where commencement happens each year. And so I feel, you know, for these students, they're engaged, they're young people, they know what's happening in this country and around the world. And the tools that they're using are their minds, their voices. Many are wearing keffiyehs, they've got signs, they're chanting. And they really want to show that the students at Columbia and on college campuses across this country, that students are concerned for what's happening in Gaza. Students are concerned with what's happening to Palestinians. And my knowledge is that many students, I'm a professor at Brooklyn Law School. I advise my students who are part of the National Lawyers Guild chapter, student chapter, students for justice in Palestine. They're all in conversation with each other and supporting each other for really a collective movement that we're seeing of young people. BERMAN: You're looking again at live pictures just outside the campus of Columbia University. The police have moved in there. They've moved the cameras out. We don't have any picture from inside the campus anymore, outside Hamilton Hall. Our Julia Vargas-Jones was outside Hamilton Hall all day reporting from the scene, providing really an exclusive look at what was going on. Julia, you've been moved off campus now, and we see you just outside where there have been, I think, some words, shall we say, between the demonstrators and police. JULIA JONES, CNN REPORTER: Some protesters are getting a little bit -- so it's getting a little touchy outside. But still, very much of a halt situation otherwise. It doesn't look like a halt. It doesn't look like a halt. But my -- BERMAN: All right, we're having a hard time hearing Julia right now. Julia, hopefully, if you can hear me, if you can get your microphone fixed, but I do believe what you were saying is there have been some shouts from the protesters toward the police, though the police were there standing. The police were standing there peacefully. The protesters, separate from them, also standing there on the right-hand side of your screen. We can see people, I believe, the police officers, I think, leaving Hamilton Hall, where they had gone in through the window, through that ramp. Actually, let's get to Miguel Marquez right now and tell us what you're seeing from where you are. MARQUEZ: So, we are just watching these buses as well, but I've turned myself around to look down Amsterdam. There are reports that there is smoke coming off the top of Hamilton Hall. We know that protesters were up on the roof of Hamilton Hall. [22:40:00] I don't think -- Ken, can you shoot this? Can you see this smoke coming off of that? The smoke, can you see this? We're live, Ken. You think it's just exhaust? So, there are reports that there is smoke coming off of Hamilton Hall. Some police have gone down to look at it. I don't see a ton of smoke coming off here. It may be just exhaust coming off of the hospital that's across the way from us, but there were protesters on the roof of Hamilton Hall earlier. Police said they used flash bang grenades, which could spark a fire if there is something combustible that they hit, but it's not really clear what's happening. It is a very clear, calm scene on this side on 114th. We haven't seen any more arrests for quite some time now. There is one more bus that they have down there that they are slowly moving people into, but we haven't seen a ton. And it doesn't appear to me that that is -- if it is smoke, it's not very heavy smoke. It looks more like exhaust, but I don't see anything coming off of Hamilton Hall right now. Julia is down on Amsterdam, and maybe Siobhan, they might be able to see more down there. Back to you. BERMAN: All right. We'll check in with them in a bit, Miguel. Keep us posted as to what you see. I'm going to bring back in our Chief Law Enforcement Analyst, John Miller, who's here with us as well. And John, anything new you're hearing? Before, you had heard that law enforcement had moved through almost all of Hamilton Hall, and there really weren't that many people inside. MILLER: That's right. So, you know, barricading the building, surrounding the building. There's two interesting possibilities here. One is that when it was clear the police were going to come and clear the building, the people inside might have gone outside. As Joey Jackson will tell you, the charge, you know, for being inside in criminal trespass might come with a burglary charge or more. So, that might have been a tactical legal judgment on their point. But what we're watching here is that truck is the big bear that has the ramp that they can use to do an entry into a location from an upper floor as opposed to from the ground floor. And they are wrapping that up to get their ramp back down. That building is effectively cleared now. What we looked at a minute ago was the emergency service units driving away. So, most of the tactical piece of taking that building back and clearing the inside appears to be complete just from what we're watching here. We've seen the buses, because they have pushed the crowd outside the gates and into pens, that the buses, police buses carrying the arrests have cleared the area and are on their way to MAPC or the Mass Arrest Processing Center down at headquarters. In terms of the demonstrators, you're going to see two things. A number of them will go up likely to City College, about 20 blocks north at 140th Street and Broadway or Amsterdam rather. And you'll see others go down to the Arrest Processing Center where they do a different kind of demonstration called jail support where they protest outside. BERMAN: All right, everyone stand by for a minute again. You're looking at live pictures on the right-hand side of your screen, Columbia University, where police have cleared out, we believe, almost all of Hamilton Hall and the left, City College, where there are still demonstrations. Our live coverage continues right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [22:48:08] BERMAN: All right, you are looking at live pictures. This is of City College in New York, which is about 20 blocks north of Columbia University. Of course, Columbia University, about an hour and 45 minutes ago, police moved in to remove the demonstrators who had taken over Hamilton Hall. Many of the protesters moved north to City College is what you're looking at right now. And we did just see a brief skirmish melee between the police and some protesters. It did look like a few arrests were made, but it was quick. And now, it appears that those clashes as they were are now over. We're going to keep our eye on that to see if the situation develops once again. In the meantime, I want to bring in Mahmoud Khalil. He is a second year graduate student who has been leading negotiations with the Columbia administration on behalf of the pro-Palestinian protesters. Mahmoud, thank you for being with us. I just want to know your reaction to what has happened tonight. MAHMOUD KHALIL, LEAD COLUMBIA STUDENT NEGOTIATOR ON BEHALF OF PROTESTERS: Hi -- Hi, John. Today, is yet another disgraceful and shameful day for the Columbia administration. On this day, this is the 55-year anniversary of the 68 demonstrations and protests that happened actually at the same building that the university brought the NYPD to invade and to arrest these peaceful demonstrators. And the university thinks that this would discourage students from calling for the end of the war in Gaza and the end of Columbia's investment in the companies that are investing in the genocide of the Palestinian people. [22:50:00] Since we started our negotiation last Friday, the university did not deal with this movement as an actual movement, an anti-war movement. Instead, they dealt with it as an internal student discipline matter. They've negotiated with us about bringing food and blankets to the encampment. They refused to acknowledge that this is actually more than that. This is a nationwide movement. This is a movement that asked Columbia to divest its investments from the companies that are fueling the war in Gaza right now. So, what I'm feeling right now, I'm feeling disgraced by this institution. BERMAN: Mahmoud, when Hamilton Hall was taken over, whether it was part of, as you say, a larger anti-war movement or an on-campus disciplinary matter, what was the expectation that Columbia would do once a building was seized and windows were broken and vandalized? KHALIL: The Autonomous Group decided to take that building when they felt that the university is not answering their demands, the university is not dealing with them seriously, and the university is actually just alienating them. So, they had to do something, so the university can actually take their demands seriously. These students have been demonstrating at Columbia since October. Every week they would demonstrate at campus. The university would answer only by more discipline and by suspension of these students. So, when they -- last week, when they established a very peaceful encampment on the East Lawn, the university did not wait a minute to bring the NYPD, which, in fact, the president herself said that this --that the first call for NYPD was somewhat not a wise decision and aggravated the issue at Columbia. Yet here we are again bringing more force, hoping that this movement wouldn't continue and would stop. And in fact, President Shafik of Columbia requested from the NYPD to stay on campus until May 17th after their graduation to make sure that no students are on campus to re-establish such encampments or to actually practice their first -- of protest. BERMAN: I have to let you go, Mahmoud. Will the protests continue even with the police presence until May 17th? KHALIL: I expect that. I'm not sure how the presence of the police would change this. The students will still have their rights to protest. And I'm very confident that students will continue this movement even after all this brutality against them. BERMAN: All right, Mahmoud Khalil, thank you very much for being with us. Do appreciate your time. With us here, been watching this is, is Felipe Rodriguez, former NYPD police officer. We did see a little while ago, those arrests up at City College. Just tell me what you've been seeing in terms of how the police and law enforcement has been behaving on the ground. RODRIGUEZ: You know what? They have to be commended. I saw a lot of restraint. We saw that team tactics was being done correctly. They were working together as a group. You know, we didn't see these wild swinging of batons like we've done in the past. You know, when the arrests had to be made, they worked together to take that person in with the minimum amount of force and to de-escalate by having a large presence of officers there at the scene. BERMAN: What's it going to be like for those officers who've got to be up there till May 17th? KHALIL: It's going to be difficult. It really is. It's going to wear them down. You know, but NYPD is one of the best police departments when it comes to dealing with, you know, large scale situations. BERMAN: And Professor Alexis Forger, you know, again, who was at Columbia for a couple of years, what's going to be the reaction on campus to a law enforcement presence until May 17th? And we don't know what it will look like yet. Maybe we can talk about that in a second. But what do you think the response will be on campus? HOAG-FORDJOUR: Yeah, I don't think it's going to be a comfortable place to be for students. I don't think it's going to be a comfortable place for families to come. It's not, you know, for graduation and celebration. The climate is going to be chilled. It's going to be a different place to be at. And really what Columbia has done in bringing in the NYPD is to overwhelm the student population with just the sheer presence and numbers of force. [22:55:00] Just being there is going to make a difference. I can imagine that students will still demonstrate in whatever way that they can. They feel very strongly about Columbia divesting from supporting what's going on in Gaza. And so, I don't imagine that that will end. It might look a little different, but I think we're still going to see students demonstrating. BERMAN: Our Miguel Marquez, still standing by just outside Columbia University. Miguel, I understand you've got some new information. MARQUEZ: Yeah, NYPD just briefed us a short time ago here on 114. They say it's done. There is -- Hamilton Hall has been cleared and is secured. The encampments that was out there for the last couple of weeks, that too has been cleared. The only thing out there right now are tents and their personal possessions. But everybody that didn't want to leave and didn't want to leave the campus was arrested. They also say there was no reports of anybody resisting arrest. There were no reports of anyone being injured, as well. This is now -- so, we've come down to Amsterdam Avenue. You can see all the police officers who are protecting this so that the buses bringing out the last few people who were arrested can get out. There are protesters behind us. They are also on the other side of Amsterdam Avenue. This is interesting, as well. So, this is John J. Hall just on the corner of 114 and Amsterdam. And you can see all the individuals hanging out their windows just watching what's going on out here. Hamilton Hall is just up the street here, another block. And that is now secured. There were reports that there was smoke off the top of Hamilton Hall earlier. Police say that that's not true. There were people who claimed that they were using a tear gas. Police say that is not true. They did use flash bang grenades. They said they went into Hamilton Hall, the doors were barricaded with tables, with chairs, with soda machines. They used the flash bangs to distract whoever was in there. And then they were able to open up those doors and get more officers in to clear out and check and then clear out the entire hall. But at this point, when this started around 9 P.M., it's done. The police will stay. The Colombians asked them, as I heard you talking about, until May 17th. Commencement is on May 15th. So, they certainly want to have that presence. What they don't want to have happen is what happened last time, that they clear the encampment, they clear the protesters, and then they re-establish themselves the next day or the following day. So, that's something that they are going to make sure doesn't happen. John. BERMAN: Miguel Marquez just outside Columbia University where police say it's done. The campus has been cleared. Hamilton Hall has been cleared. The encampment has been cleared. No injuries, the police say. Much more ahead. Our special live coverage continues right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) Laura Coates Live Aired April 30, 2024 - 23:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:01:05] UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is "CNN Breaking News." LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Our breaking news out of New York City, the NYPD says Columbia University property has now been cleared. Hundreds of officers on Columbia's campus tonight after the university asked them to clear out pro-Palestinian protesters who had set up an encampment and taken over a building just last night. Dozens of people who have already been arrested, zip-tied, and loaded onto buses. Columbia University putting out a statement, reading in part -- quote -- "We believe that the group that broke into and occupied the building is led by individuals who are not affiliated with the university. The decision to reach out to the NYPD was in response to the actions of the protesters, not the cause they are championing. Early Tuesday, protesters chose to escalate to an alarming and untenable situation -- including by vandalizing property, breaking doors and windows, blockading entrances, and forcing our facilities and public safety workers out." Now, Columbia tonight is asking the NYPD to maintain a presence on campus until at least May 17th. I want to bring in CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon, what are you seeing right now? And tell me, how did all of this go down? SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, it was so significant and the presence was just so enormous. You know, early in the night, we started seeing the arrival of the search teams from the NYPD, the strategic response teams, and that's when you really knew something was about to go down here. And it was just stunning to see the amounts of officers that started just descending on the campus, on to the area around the campus. And there were, you know, hundreds of officers that started moving in and then more units started moving in. And then really the most serious action, some of the most heavily armed, some of the most tactical officers from the NYPD, started arriving here on the Amsterdam side of the campus, outside of Hamilton Hall, to enter the building. It's clear that they had been planning for this since probably early this morning when things took a significant turn after several of the protesters stormed Hamilton Hall, got inside. The NYPD, you almost feel -- you get a sense that the entire day was spent planning this, just when you look at the enormous response. And so, the emergency services officers responded here. And then we saw that heavily armed vehicle, it's called a Bearcat. They went up against Hamilton Hall, going inside. Dozens of officers climbing up on the truck and going through the window into Hamilton Hall where they went room by room, clearing the hall, clearing the area, making several arrests, clearing the campus. They actually let some of the people on the campus -- they told them to leave. Some voluntarily left. Dozens of others were arrested. And just a short time ago, it all just came to an end. Many of those officers who went in with their tools, we saw things that would be used to cut through locks, we saw other things to break through doors, we saw other heavily armed equipment and shields, and all those dozens of those officers streamed out, got in their vehicles, and simply left. And now, it would appear that the entire campus has been cleared. The hall has been cleared. We have no reports of any injuries, Laura. But, you know, I've covered many protests here in New York City. I have never seen a response like this, a mobilization like this, the way the NYPD came in with such force, with such precision. [23:05:06] And it's clear, you know, in part, this was to send a message, in part to protect themselves. Something very significant happened here. It seems that they probably got some information. They got very concerned. They said that this was now a safety concern, and they had to take this extreme measure and essentially come on campus, use the tactics that they did to get inside Hamilton Hall. So significant. I mean, this is a university, right? This is Columbia University. Scenes like this, this is something that's going to be part of history, certainly for this city, for this university and, Laura, for the NYPD. I mean, this is so significant, what they did here and how they did it. And luckily right now, as far as we know, there have been no injuries. COATES: You know, Shimon, just thinking about the presence that we saw, the number of officers, it seemed as though there was at least -- just from looking, you don't see many students. You see an overwhelming presence of law enforcement officials. As you mentioned, the tactical teams that were involved there. What were you hearing as they went into these buildings, Hamilton Hall specifically? Were you hearing people react? Was there a presence on campus of students reacting to this overwhelming presence? What were you seeing on the ground in terms of seeing that presence from the community? PROKUPECZ: Yeah, there were some of the students. There's a bridge here just over my left shoulder. Some of the students were gathered up there. There were students behind this. They're actually screaming at the officers, shame, shame, saying -- you know, sort of calling them out for what they were -- for what they were doing. You know, many of the people here don't agree with this. Look, many of the faculty members, many of the students don't agree with the NYPD, having the NYPD come in on the campus. It was about a week and a half ago when Columbia first did this. And when they did that, when they did -- when they asked the NYPD to come on campus and clear the encampment the first time, it's very significant. And there was a lot of backlash on the university from the faculty and the students, this escalation. Why are you calling the NYPD in? And for days, we heard from the university, they didn't want to call the NYPD in again. But after what happened this morning, it really left the university with no choice. COATES: Hmm. PROKUPECZ: And in talking to sources at the NYPD, Laura, look, the NYPD wanted to end this. They were very concerned that this was going to escalate and it was going to get to a point where there was going to be something very serious happening here. And so, they felt the need, they needed to go in tonight, and it was really up to Columbia University. And finally, the university agreed to allow them to come in, to go through those windows here at Hamilton Hall, historic, go through those windows, get inside that building and clear it. COATES: Shimon, please stay on this. We're relying on you so much. Thank you so much. I want to bring in CNN's Miguel Marquez. Miguel, you're out with more protesters in the streets. We see a lot of people. And still, from what we're looking at earlier tonight, images of officers on the campus, of the area being cleared out, the sheer presence and volume, as Shimon has articulated, the number of officers that are there. What are you seeing now? MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're seeing two more people being arrested. That's what you're looking at right now. Those were people that were not on the Columbia campus, but they were just outside. Let me show you where we are. We're at 113 in Amsterdam. Ken, if you could come down this way. This way, Ken. This way, Ken. There's still a large number of students and protesters who have gathered here outside the area the police have closed off. Hamilton Hall is just up the way here, a couple of blocks up Amsterdam Avenue. Police made entry through the second floor of Hamilton Hall. They used flashbangs to distract whoever was in there. The doors were barricaded with tables and chairs and soda machines. There weren't many people in there. And at this point, police say it's done. There's nobody on the Columbia campus that shouldn't be there right now, which are essential workers and students who are living on the campus. I want to show you the police presence up here at 114th Street. The 114th is where the police went in, in massive numbers, as Shimon was saying. I mean, I've covered stuff like this all over the world. I've never seen this big of a police presence. They've handled it very quickly. I think we thought we'd be here for many more hours. But police now say it's completely done. The only thing left in there, in the encampment, are the tents and their personal possessions. But you can see the number of police officers who have moved here to 114th Street. The 114th is where the police went into the campus. And then they brought out most of the arrestees down to 114th. There's still one bus down there. [23:10:00] And as police go in and out -- so they're taking these two that were just arrested down to the bus that is down here. The remainder of the arrestees that were in Columbia, these people will now join them on that bus. But you can see the number of police officers that are protecting this area, and then protesters across the street here as well who are shouting at police. COATES: Miguel, where are you in relation -- MARQUEZ: Yeah, go ahead. COATES: Where are you in relation to Hamilton Hall? I mean, in terms of where officers were dispersed. MARQUEZ: I was just explaining. So, Hamilton Hall is just up the street here. COATES: Okay, got it. MARQUEZ: One more block up the street here. This is 114th, 115th, 116th. So, two blocks up, basically, is where Hamilton Hall is. Right next to us, if you can see these people hanging out the windows here, that's part of Columbia University. That's John Jay Hall, which is just down from Hamilton Hall. And people are actually hanging out, just watching what's happening on the street. These are people who live in the dorms here at the university. They're able to sort of just stand out on the windowsills themselves and watch everything going on. But it -- while it is done on the inside, it's certainly not done on the outside. Just a short time ago here at 113th, protesters are gathering. They're yelling at police and they -- you know, police are still trying to control the situation outside of campus. You can see all the people across Amsterdam Avenue. They have set up an enormous cordon around the university here. Broadway is shut down, both directions from 113th to 120th. Amsterdam is also shut down. So, both sides, both avenues along both sides of the university are completely shut down. All the side streets, 113th, 114th, 115th, 116th, they're all shut down as well, and then they have barricades. They've been moving barricades. And we knew something was going on because we saw these trucks early and late in the afternoon with tons of barricades coming in. So, it was very clear that something different was happening than we'd seen in previous days. But right now, police say Columbia University itself is done and there's nobody on the grounds that shouldn't be there. There were no injuries, they said. No reports of resisting arrest. But the area around Columbia, police are still dealing with. Laura? COATES: I mean, just how significant. I think many people who may or may not be familiar with the New York area, the shut down areas of Broadway and Amsterdam and beyond the surrounding area, this is extremely coordinated and significant and would have taken a great deal of planning. And to have that same level of police presence at this very hour, even after the campus has been cleared, as they say, very significant. Miguel, please stay with us. I want to bring in CNN reporter Julia Vargas Jones. Julia, you were actually on campus when police first entered the school. We've been watching you throughout the day, and we've seen the ebb and flow of officers and now the maintenance of their presence there. What are you seeing? JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN REPORTER: Well, right here (INAUDIBLE) keep moving (INAUDIBLE) allowed back on campus (INAUDIBLE) what campus looks like. I want to move our escort over here. So, I just want to make sure that (INAUDIBLE). COATES: Julia, we're having problem hearing you quite well. We are watching you, Julia, as you're walking in. You said you have an escort to get you back on campus. You have been allowed. You were moved away from the police buses at this point. But I want to be able to -- can we hear you again? You're walking on to campus. We're having a little trouble hearing you. Talk again to me. VARGAS JONES: We're (INAUDIBLE) on campus. COATES: We're going to fix it and come back. Hold on, Julia. It's too important to lose what you're saying. We're going to bring in CNN chief law enforcement intelligence analyst John Miller. We will come back to you as well. I want to know what's happening on the campus now that police have been cleared. John, you've been watching all of this. And as we heard from Miguel at one point, talked about distraction devices being used in Hamilton Hall tonight. What are those? JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, a distraction device is one of those things that looks like a can. You throw it, it goes flash, and then bang, which is why they call it a flash bang. And it basically, if somebody is waiting for you on the other side of it that means you harm, it is disorienting just for a few seconds to the person on the other side and allows police to gain control. So, when they did their entry today not knowing what was going to be waiting for them on the other side, they threw these devices in to disorient anybody who might be waiting for them with ill intent. As it was, Laura, their search of the building turned up relatively few people, but they had to go floor by floor doing that search. [23:15:04] COATES: Do you know how many people you're talking about? MILLER: No, but, I mean, I spoke to the people who were in the building and they said we haven't run into a whole lot of people since we've been doing the floor by floor. I think what you saw there, Laura, was they knew a couple of things going in. They knew one for certain, there was going to be no element of surprise. It was in social media, it was on the news, that police had been authorized by, in writing, by the university to retake the building. And I think the considerations that were built into their plans were to bring an overwhelming number of police officers to be able to show that overwhelming number to whatever number of people they confronted outside and then inside that building, which was unknown, to minimize the use of force that they would have to use. And as we see, they made a number of arrests, still trying to get that number. The last we heard from police, it was 50 and counting. COATES: When will we get that number, do you think? I mean, obviously, we believe dozens have been arrested, to your point, but there's not an official count that has been provided yet from the NYPD. I suspect they're going to go through the booking process. And also, Shimon Prokupecz was saying earlier that they were allowing some people to just leave the area. They don't mean those who were inside Hamilton Hall, right? Those are people around the area. People who were in Hamilton Hall, were they all arrested, it seems? MILLER: So, again, unknown people inside Hamilton Hall, although we do know that it was a very small number. So, I think what we saw is that once word got out that they were going to retake the building, I mean the people in Hamilton Hall may have left to join the group outside. That would be a less serious charge. It would likely not include burglary or certain criminal trespassing statutes if they weren't inside. If they were a student, it would be something even less because it's hard to charge a student who is entitled to be on campus with one of those things. So, that may be what we saw. But what they got was they got the warning, which is, if you don't move away from the front of this building -- COATES: Yeah. MILLER: -- you're going to be arrested. They were given time to comply with that warning. COATES: Let me go inside the building, John, because -- actually, stay with me -- MILLER: Okay. COATES: -- because we're getting some new footage of what took place when NYPD went inside of Hamilton Hall. They, of course, found that there were barricaded doors with chairs. We heard about soda machines and beyond. I don't know if you can see the footage right now, John, but we're actually watching officers with shields, with the NYPD emergency unit. They have a hammer and a sledgehammer, trying to break into areas that appear to have libraries inside. Obviously, this is a university campus. This isn't an academic office. They're going up the stairs or passing down chairs. It seems there have been areas of barricading as well. I mean, what I'm seeing right now is tactical gear, helmets, shields and zip ties. And I'm assuming that they would also have weapons on them because they would not necessarily know the level of resistance or if it was armed resistance that they would be, in fact, encountering. Tell me about the coordination, though, that it would take to have this many NYPD officers on a college campus. Miguel Marquez says barricading and closing off streets like Broadway and Amsterdam, major thoroughfares, really, in these certain areas, particularly Broadway. What kind of coordination and planning would it have taken to get to this point, to have the resistance be as minimal as it seemed to have been? MILLER: Well, I think what you saw is over the last two days, when students took the building then barricaded the building, and then today as they held that building, the NYPD has been talking to Columbia University literally every day for two weeks about the group that was camped out on the quad, on the lawn, about whether Columbia wanted police to come in and remove them a second time. So, when the building was taken, the security cameras inside were smashed, barricades were put around at all the entrances. Columbia made the decision that this is where the line is drawn and called them in. For police, this was a plan that they had already been considering. They brought a lot of people, but they also brought a lot of special equipment, as you mentioned. They brought the emergency service unit. Those are the people with the jaws of life if they have to breach a door. Those are the people with the tools to cut through any barricades if they have to. Those are the people who have the flashbangs if they needed a distraction device. But what you didn't see was a lot of special weapons. In other words, they came armed the way police officers do with their sidearms. But there wasn't any particular large number of SWAT-type weapons because they knew they were dealing with kids, they knew they were dealing with protesters, they knew they were likely to be unarmed. [23:20:07] But they also knew that the possibility was they might meet some kind of resistance, as they had seen in earlier protests. COATES: John, we were seeing some footage earlier tonight and also some live footage of people who were on the streets. We are learning that the university has been asking for the NYPD to maintain some level of presence through at least even May 17th. I mean, shortly, it will be May 1st, but that's at least almost a three-week period at that point in time to have additional police presence. What would that look like in terms of the amount of police that would be present? It can't possibly be the numbers we're talking about here and we're seeing from tonight, but what would that look like? MILLER: So, that's going to be a judgment call about what that would look like. So, first of all, let's say why, what does it mean? What it means is that a few hundred police officers came up to clear the kids who were both students and non-students, who were camped out on that piece of ground, and then when that operation was over, life resumed, and they came back and they re-camped out. So, at this point, the college, Columbia University, has made the decision, if we're going to retake that ground for the second time, when we retake it, we have to have a program to hold it because we have graduation coming up in just a couple of weeks and we don't want to have to keep doing this either to that ground or the buildings. So, the police can do a minimal presence there, which is they can put jersey barriers -- not jersey barriers, they can put the bicycle barriers around that piece of land. They can have some limited access, controlled access or no access as they prepare to set up for graduation. They can have a small number of officers around it controlling that and a larger number on the outside, or they can go with a larger number on the inside, which I think might just not be the look they're going for. But, at this point, they're still in that planning stage. COATES: John Miller, so important to get your perspective. And as we're continuing to watch the live footage of officers remaining on the street outside of Columbia University, we're going to take a quick break. We will be back with more from the campus of Columbia University tonight. A student from the campus will be with us in just a moment, plus the political reaction coming in tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:26:48] COATES: Our breaking news tonight, the NYPD says Columbia University's property has been cleared less than two hours after hundreds of officers entered the school's campus in New York City. Hamilton Hall, which was taken over by protesters last night, has also been cleared, the NYPD says, and nobody was injured during the operation. Police say they are still monitoring different locations for protesters across the city. I want to bring in CNN reporter Julia Vargas Jones. Julia, you're now on Columbia's campus. What do you see? VARGAS JONES: Yeah, Laura, so we're back inside campus for the first look. I'm actually inside the journalism school. We're in this room with a bunch of other journalists. People piling, trying to get out, waiting for about almost two hours. But over here on the other side of these walls, I'm going to try and show you as best as I can the line of NYPD officers. They're still on campus. They're still in line formation. It's unclear where they're hanging. This behind the bright building, the illuminated building, you see that? That's the Butler (ph) Library. In the west lawn, where everything really began and popped off at Columbia here almost two weeks ago, you see the tents are still up from the original encampment that Columbia had 2 p.m. deadline to be prepared on Monday. Behind it, there's bleachers already set up for graduation. That's coming up in about two weeks, as we've been saying. But it's eerie, Laura. It is so quiet on campus. There is basically not a soul. It's just NYPD. You can hear a pin drop in this campus right now, as you can imagine. I heard Shimon's description of how precisely the NYPD worked with Columbia to get people out and clear campus. They have done an excellent job at that because it is -- there's not a soul. You can see students up in the residences. COATES: I see that. I see that behind you. Tell me, you're in the journalism school, I see there were students in that area where you are right now present, what are they talking, what are they saying? What is their reaction to the fact that -- I mean, I'm looking across the campus through your vantage point, seeing the encampment still in place, lined by officers. What are the students saying about what's happening right now? This eerily quiet, where I would expect to see, you know, students walking back and forth, and even in the late night, it's NYPD. VARGAS JONES: Yeah. I think the one thing I really need to say, Laura, is that the journalism school has really stood up for all of us affiliated with the school, and it brought us back in. I was not expecting to be let in, but the school somehow negotiated that with the NYPD, and we were escorted back in. Everyone is kind of in shock that this is happening at our school. [23:30:02] And then to be here as a student as well -- I mean, I didn't expect this to happen in my school. Obviously, we saw the escalation over the past few days. It had to be something. So, it's still shocking. It is a very jarring to see, to be here. And this has basically been captured a little bit more, so maybe we can help you through a little bit. This has been basically a bunker. COATES: We're seeing some images, too, Julia, as you're showing us. We're also seeing images from earlier tonight as well as the officers going in and out of Hamilton Hall. And to the point you were just raising about what the students are thinking, and I want to get right back to you, but I want to bring in Jonas Du, who's editor-in-chief of the "Columbia Sundial" and a junior at Columbia University. You're on campus right now. I was just talking to my colleague about what she was seeing in the vantage point from even the journalism school, having a little bit of trouble with her audio. But you're on campus right now. What can you see? JONAS DU, EDITOR IN CHIEF, COLUMBIA SUNDIAL: So, I am on campus property. I am actually in a friend's dormitory building. But this dorm is not actually within the campus gates. And so, what has happened is that all of today, Columbia students, even Columbia students that live in housing, we couldn't access campus if we didn't live in a couple specific dorms that are within the gates. So, as a journalist, I was out on 114th Street trying to photograph the police, trying to photograph where they were coming in and bringing the protesters out. And so, in preparation for that, what the police did was they pushed basically everyone on the street into the nearest building and made us remain there. I'm not sure if that restriction is still in place. I believe it is, which is why I've just been in this building the whole time. And, you know, we actually went up to the roof, to one of the upper levels, and we could see sort of on to the street, we could see the buses. They had like five or six police buses, massive police buses coming in. We saw them bring out the protesters. There were massive protests going on Amsterdam Avenue. They were, you know, jeering at the police who were bringing the protesters out. We saw a couple of protesters try to obstruct the road, sit down, you know, make it hard for the police officers. The police, you know, took care of that. We saw a woman who was, you know, being sort of hung upside down and hauled on to the police bus. But overall, it was fairly orderly. It was very loud, even from the height that we were at. But it's just a chaotic scene, even from just outside the campus gates. COATES: Are you -- are you getting a sense, and obviously Columbia University is not a small student population, but are you getting a sense from your peers and your fellow students that those who were arrested recently are students or from outside the institution? DU: Well, it's really hard to say, but there has to be some level of student involvement. At the end of the day -- COATES: Why do you say that? DU: Well, even though campus has been -- campus has been locked down to Columbia ID holders. Now, there have been ways of getting in, getting non-affiliates into campus. But for the most part, you need Columbia IDs. You need students to provide you with IDs so that you can get into campus. I think there is evidence that there is sort of outside organizations behind the planning of the occupation, but there certainly are numerous students who were inside Hamilton Hall. And, you know, last night, as I was reporting on the barricade and on the occupation, I recognized many, many Columbia students in the crowd that was forming the human chains around the entrances to Hamilton Hall. So, this is -- at the end of the day, it's still a student- fueled movement. It wouldn't have gotten to the extent it has gotten without the involvement of the student organizations here. COATES: That's an important point. I mean, I wonder, are you getting communication from the university? I mean, are you guys getting e- mails? Are you getting phone alerts? How are you being communicated with the university? I'm assuming we in the media, obviously, knew about the request that was being made. It was public. It would be a request made to NYPD. When were you first informed as a student body that it was happening, and what has been the communication since? DU: It has been virtually radio silence from the university -- COATES: Really? DU: -- which is actually very shocking. And so, what we have received are -- you know, during the day, you know, they told us there's an illegal occupation of Hamilton Hall, students might face expulsion, all of that. And then, you know, in the evening, as the NYPD, they were gathering around campus, we got a text message alert and an e-mail saying that there was a shelter-in-place order and that we needed to stay in our dorms and not go out onto campus or not explore the area. No specifics were given, but all of us knew that that was sort of a signal, that the NYPD was going to raid campus. [23:35:00] But, you know, once again, not an explicit sign. And beyond that, we got a message from the dean of Columbia College and the dean of Columbia Engineering tonight. They were saying, you know, we support you, please stay safe. Pretty boilerplate message. But we haven't heard anything from university president, Shafik, let alone any other higher-up administrators. It's very, very surprising, especially given the unprecedented nature of calling the NYPD here for a second time. COATES: By the way, does that stand in contrast to what has happened in recent weeks? Had you been hearing from the president of the university up until now or other higher-up student officials or campus officials until now or has this been a consistent drumbeat of silence? DU: So, actually, there were near-daily updates leading up to today, which is why today's lack of communication is shocking to a lot of students. And so, we would get updates. We'd get updates that they said that they weren't going to call the NYPD again because there was a lot of backlash to that among the students and among the faculty. So, what the administration decided to do was to pursue negotiation with the protesters instead. So, people were under the impression that, you know, there's not going to be another NYPD raid on campus. Now, with the end of negotiations and with, you know, the escalation in the form of the occupation of Hamilton Hall, that all -- that entire calculus has definitely changed on the administration's level. COATES: It's really important to hear your perspective and get at what students are experiencing right now. Thank you so much. We've got a lot more from Columbia University, where police have cleared the campus of protesters. We'll hear from university professors next. Back in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:41:03] COATES: Our breaking news, a mass police presence remains on the campus of Columbia University at this hour. New York Police say university property, including Hamilton Hall, which was taken over by pro-Palestinian protesters just last night, has now been cleared just about two hours after hundreds of officers entered the New York City campus. Joining me now, Hagar Chemali, adjunct associate professor at Columbia University. Thank you so much for being here, professor. I mean, we have been watching this throughout the last couple of weeks, but certainly in the last 24 hours and hours since this has happened. Dozens have been arrested, some will be expelled, and the university statement saying tonight that they made the decision to bring in the NYPD back to protect the safety of everyone. Do you support that decision, to have had NYPD on campus to clear the campus and specifically as well Hamilton Hall? HAGAR CHEMALI, ADJUNCT ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, I do because I think the university had no choice. I'm not sure if I'm in the majority on that opinion among the faculty. If so, it's a silent majority. But the fact is that the university, and we saw them, the administration, were negotiating in good faith with the protesters for at least 10 days. We were being kept up-to-date. As your previous guest, Jonas, I believe mentioned, we were getting emails on a daily basis and often multiple times a day and detailing the negotiations that they were making progress, that they had hope. So, it looked like it was in good faith, especially after the arrests from 10 days ago, that this was the route the administration was trying to take. But those talks reached an impasse and the problem now is that they had no choice because the students barricaded themselves in this building. This is an academic building. You've got exams next week. You have -- the students are very loud. You have -- they're right in front of the library where students are trying to study for their exams. And they vandalized. And frankly, what they did was not just against Columbia rules, but was also illegal. And so, they have to restore order on campus, not just for the exams, but also for graduation. You have students who didn't have a graduation because of the pandemic before who have it now. You have students who've never had anyone in their family graduate. And you can't have a small group of protesters mess that up for everybody else. COATES: Well, as you mentioned, graduation on the 15th of May. And I think they've asked for the police presence to remain until May 17th. As you mentioned, this reading (ph) period that's happening right now, I do wonder, given that there seemed to have been an impasse reached and only broken, it seems, by the occupation of Hamilton Hall, did the university wait too long to act? CHEMALI: Well, I think that's actually a bigger question if you look at how the university has approached the protesters since October 7th. Because at the very beginning, after the conflict started, the university was weak in its response and didn't really seem to know how to respond to protests and certainly to language that incited violence and antisemitic and hateful language. They were weak on that in general. And in my opinion, I also think this -- COATES: I want to understand. Weak, meaning what? They did not respond at all, they allowed it to happen, or their response was so tepid? What do you mean? CHEMALI: It's not really so much a question about not allowing protests to happen. Protests are, if anything, encouraged on Columbia's campus. It's one of the great things about Columbia's campus. We have a very deep pride in our academic freedom and our expression and the ability for students to debate and to learn and to explore these things. But the fact is that after October 7th, a lot of professors didn't want to address what was happening. And the administration also, at the beginning, the communications coming from the administration was slow. We weren't seeing very strong guidance. We weren't seeing much. And as a result, when you don't have professors of the administration teaching students, guiding them on what violent rhetoric looks like, what antisemitic language looks like, what hateful language looks like, and by the way, also giving them spaces so that they can debate in a way that they learn how to have civil dialogue, that wasn't created. [23:45:03] There was a lot more of just talking at them with webinars and emails and task forces. And the problem is I think a lot of that ended up growing this sentiment among the students that they wanted to speak loudly. They didn't know how to do it. And by the way, there was a statement by the university today about the influence of outsiders. That is something that has been documented throughout the protests since October 7th. The influence of outsiders and students inviting outsiders tied to certain terrorist organizations, this has been well documented in the press, by the way, to speak to them, that's something Columbia has tried to clamp down. And so, it has been very difficult and tenuous. So, to answer your question, with the latest round, in my opinion, I thought that they did the right thing, after the last time they did the arrests, in trying to negotiate with the students in good faith, in trying to tell them, we need you to leave, you're breaking the rules, and doing everything they can. But I do think once they went into the building, into Hamilton Hall, they had to move quickly. That's a standard for any time a police force is invited to break something up. The sooner you do it, the better. COATES: Hagar Chemali, thank you so much for joining us. It's interesting to have your perspective here as a professor at the university. Up next, new arrest numbers tonight. We are learning, coming in, more than 100 protesters arrested at Columbia and City College of New York. We'll have more of all that in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:50:50] COATES: Breaking news from the campus of Columbia University in New York City, the NYPD says university property has now been cleared, including Hamilton Hall, which was taken over by pro-Palestinian protesters just last night. The university has requested an on-campus police presence through May 17, which could cast a shadow over their May 15 graduation. I want to bring in CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. Shimon, tell me what you are seeing right now. We're looking at some footage from earlier in the evening of NYPD entering into Hamilton Hall, removing chairs, using some sort of a device to break into or open up a door. It appears to be a hammer of some kind of otherwise academic office. Tell me what you were seeing and what you're hearing tonight. PROKUPECZ: Yeah, that's the different tools that they brought with them when they knew they were going to go in and start clearing the rooms and searching for people who are inside. Significant, we're just learning, Laura, you know, those 100 arrests, both from Columbia University and City College, which saw some protests tonight. Out here now, things are very calm. Most of the law enforcement presence is gone. Now, really, you know, we're going to learn more about who some of these people are, and that's going to come tomorrow and the days ahead. It's going to be significant, especially as we learn about the individuals who broke into Hamilton Hall, which really set all of this off. Had those individuals not broken into the building, perhaps we wouldn't even be here right now. Things have changed because of that. And so, tomorrow, at some point, I assume they'll be in court. They're facing some pretty serious charges, burglary charges. The students that were arrested on campus will likely mostly face trespassing charges, maybe some other charges. But the most significant charges will come from the individuals who broke into Hamilton Hall. And, really, I think the NYPD is going to make it a focus of theirs, to put out information about these individuals who they say some of them are outside agitators, outside elements that came in and co-opted this protest and broke into that room. So, there's still a lot more to learn here. But, for now, the big presence of law enforcement, things are calm, things have been cleared, and we'll see what happens tomorrow, certainly the response from faculty and the students in the coming days. COATES: It'll be important to see if there has been a changing of the sentiment among the campus community following that entry, and for people to realize -- of course, as Shimon mentioned, burglary might seem odd for people. People think about burglary as in the taking of something. You're going into someone's home or a space and removing property. It can also be the breaking and entering during the nighttime hours, is often defined as burglary as opposed to just trespass. I would assume there's a lot of disorderly conduct things coming as well. I want to bring in Columbia University professor and CNN presidential historian Tim Naftali into the conversation. Tim, good to see you. I mean, this is quite reminiscent for so many people of a series of different protests that have happened more collectively on college campuses, albeit for different reasons, but this NYPD action is actually coming on, I understand, the 56th anniversary of the 1968 action at the same building, Hamilton Hall. What are your thoughts tonight as a professor there and looking at it through the lens as a historian? TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, this is the seventh time that Hamilton Hall has been occupied or barricaded by demonstrators, including 1968. And in fact, in 1968, that's what you're referring to, the hall was occupied by students, cleared by police, and then occupied by students again two weeks later. So, for Columbia graduates and Columbia students, Hamilton Hall is sort of the center point. If you wish to make a statement dramatically, you do it in and around Hamilton Hall. In 1968, the first time it was occupied, Hamilton Hall was the scene of a dramatic police action that resulted in the arrest of 700 people. [23:55:06] So, we're talking about tonight about 100 people, and that includes, I think, City College. So, I'm not sure how many Columbia University students have been arrested today. But in 1960, on the same day, April 30th, after occupying Hamilton Hall and four other buildings, the demonstrators were removed by the NYPD, and as I said, 700 people were arrested. And that created an emotional shock for Columbia. It resulted in an investigation at Columbia, and though I didn't go to school in Columbia and I've only been there a short period of time -- COATES: Uh-hmm. NAFTALI: -- what I know about the school is that it created scars. And the question I have, and I don't say this as someone who doubts that those students had to be removed -- COATES: Uh-hmm. NAFTALI: -- from Hamilton Hall, but what I worry about throughout our country right now is the lesson that students are going to learn from this. We have seen on the left as well as the right in our country an adoption of absolutism. If you are not -- if you don't agree with me, you are complicit in the evil that I don't agree with. COATES: Hmm. Interesting. NAFTALI: We've seen it on the right. We talk about it all the time on the right. But it's also on the left. And I say this from having walked on the campus this week and listened to the chants of those young people. And I say this with a heavy heart because as an educator, my job is to open the world to my students, not close it. My job is to allow them to feel secure in trying new ideas. And what I'm hearing from some students is a closing of their mind, an unwillingness to understand a different point of view, a sense that if you disagree with me, you are complicit in genocide. COATES: Well, this is a conversation that will continue and is continuing across the country -- NAFTALI: Yes. COATES: -- as other educators are grappling with a way to educate and inform and listen simultaneously, a very daunting task nonetheless. Professor, thank you for joining us. We have more on our breaking news out of Columbia in just a moment, including new reporting that the wife of an indicted terrorist was on the campus of Columbia University. Details, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)