The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired May 09, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We have some breaking news right now, the judge in Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial is considering several motions for the defense and will rule at any moment on Mr. Trump's motion for mistrial. The judge has also just denied Mr. Trump's request to modify his gag order. CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid is here along with Jeremy Saland, a former prosecutor for the Manhattan DA's office. While we watch for these defense motions to play out, here's one of the things going on. Merchan is saying of Susan Necheles, why on earth she wouldn't object to the mention of a condom. I don't understand. This is because Susan Necheles said that it was a dog whistle to mention that Donald Trump had sex with Stormy Daniels, allegedly, although he disputes it, without a condom, a dog whistle for rape. Some of the headlines coming in from the courtroom right now as the judge discusses this motion for mistrial. The judge said in going back to the very opening statements, Mr. Blanche, the defense attorney, in your opening statement, you denied there was ever a sexual encounter between Stormy Daniels and the defendant. And that is the point that he's raising there, Paula Reid and Jeremy, is that by denying it, you put her credibility at issue. And by doing that, you opened the door for the prosecution to ask her to tell the story. Is that right? PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And then when there were certain details you didn't like about using protection, you didn't object. And it's interesting, the judge revealed that he's going back and actually reviewing the transcript. He looked at the whole transcript from Tuesday and he said he was satisfied with what came in. He admonished them for not making more objections. So it doesn't appear that they're going to win on this motion for a mistrial. We didn't expect that. It's something they have to do, but it doesn't look good for them right now. JEREMY SALAND, FORMER PROSECUTOR, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Yes, they're not winning. And I think to your point, Paula, he's going back, he's reading the transcript, he's certainly on top of his game. He knows what they said and didn't say. And again, why didn't you object to this point? You didn't object to it. And then you open the door to start out of the gate, that's on you. TAPPER: I am no attorney, but it does seem a fairly obvious knee jerk reaction objection that she says he didn't wear a condom. Object like immediately. REID: Yes. TAPPER: Like what? There's not going to be a punishment. SALAND: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Paula. REID: I mean, I'd be interested to hear your perspective. Because I do think that it's possible that she was focused on a few different things because she was preparing, you know, for this cross. She's managing her client, but this is her job to pay attention. There were multiple times, though, when Trump had to kind of tap her and nudge her to object. But it is a glaring omission. SALAND: There's times when a judge will actually take it upon his or herself and say, sustained, and, oh, I got to pay attention, I got to pay attention, because you can be multitasking, I get that. But when you have this client in this form and this that much at stake, you're on that a game. And you're also not one attorney. You have multiple attorneys who could be assisting you doing other things. Object, object, object. TAPPER: And in fact, as you suggested, the motion for mistrial was just denied by Judge Merchan. Here's Mr. Trump, the defendant. Let's listen to what he has to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What happened today, I don't think we have to do any explaining. I'm not allowed to anyway because this judge is corrupt. He's a corrupt judge. This judge, what he did and what his ruling was is a disgrace. Everybody saw what happened today. He's a corrupt judge and he's totally conflicted. And I got to get back on the campaign trail. I'm not supposed to be here. We are so innocent. There's never been anything like it. Read every single analyst, legal analyst. I'm innocent and I'm being held in this court with a corrupt judge who's totally conflicted. Take a look at his conflict. It's a disgrace to the city of New York, to the state of New York and to the country. Thank you very much. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel like everything is messed up? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible). UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you wish you got (inaudible). (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: All right. The defendant, Donald J. Trump, saying that he doesn't have to talk about what happened in court because everybody saw and he went after the judge, Juan Merchan, calling him a corrupt judge. And we should note, Jeremy and Paula, he's allowed to go after the judge. The judge is not covered in the gag order. So probably his attorney said, just don't talk about Stormy. Say whatever you want about the judge and go forth. REID: Yes, that's exactly what he did. Right? Get it all out of your system. Take it all out on Juan Merchan. But I mean, he's insisting that he is a corruption judge. There's no evidence that he's a corrupt judge. They have objected to him overseeing this case because of work that the judge's daughter does on behalf of a political organization that creates ads for Democratic politicians, including Adam Schiff. But that is not something so far that has prompted him to have to recuse himself from the case. When I was in that courtroom, I saw no evidence that he was biased. In fact, he sustained a lot of objections. And again, I go back to his ruling on the alleged violations of the gag order. [17:05:01] He seems to view this in some way that, yes, does have some political speech, and they have had a lot of wins under this judge. TAPPER: And we should also note that Donald Trump also said in that little speech he just delivered that he was innocent. And again, by saying he's innocent, that kind of feeds into one of the reasons why he's so mad, because by denying that anything ever happened, they put Stormy Daniel's credibility at issue and the prosecution could then open the door and say, tell us your story, which has made him very, very angry. SALAND: Yes, I'll tell you this much, he's not that -- he's not that I have the chutzpah to get in that courtroom and say that on the stand. He's not going to say any of this on the stand because he would run afoul and run amok and find himself cross examined and impeached in ways that he can never fathom. And it's really, I had an abyssal response when I hear him speak, and I can't stress enough, and I've said it so many times in that courtroom, he is as guilty as you or me. He's innocent until proven guilty -- TAPPER: Right. Of course. SALAND: -- beyond a reasonable doubt. But when he steps out of that courtroom, what he says is so despicable and so undermining of the criminal justice system and the foundation of our country that he should stop running his mouth and people should stop allowing him. You know, maybe if Blanche would actually, you know, object in the courtroom and not stand silent like he's standing next to his client outside the courtroom, we'd be in a much better place. Donald Trump would be in a much better place. But it's horrible. TAPPER: What do you find -- specifically, what do you find despicable? The accusations that the judge is correct? SALAND: No matter what happens in that courtroom, unless it goes his way and we've seen this in the previous case, right, in the civil matter with the attorney general's office, he comes out and he attacks the system of the criminal justice system, attacks the judge and he undermines the credibility of law and order. And if that's the bar that people are now going to have, that's really problematic for the next person who comes in line and says, Donald Trump said this, Donald Trump did this, so why can't I? He was far more egregious and he's undermining the credibility of law enforcement. You are innocent and fight your case in that courtroom. Do whatever it takes, but stop saying this out of the courtroom. Stop when you have this pulpit and people listen and imbibe upon it and consume it like they do. It's dangerous and he needs to stop. TAPPER: Well, I'll tell you what, if people are seeing this and say, I'm going to do that if I ever get in trouble with the law, they're going to find out that they're going to be treated much harshly. SALAND: Two systems of justice. TAPPER: Much more harshly than Mr. Trump is being treated. They will be thrown in prison for violating a gag order. Judge Merchan just denied the motions for a mistrial as well as any modifications to Trump's gag order. Let's bring in CNN's Jamie Gangel now. And Jamie, what are your thoughts here as Judge Merchan slaps both of these motions from the defense down? No, you have no grounds for mistrial. No, I'm not going to modify the gag order. JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: First of all, let's just remember Judge Merchan has a great reputation. He is known to run a tight courtroom, that he has judicious temperament, and that he is very fair to both sides. I think Paula said a little bit earlier today that Trump's team has gotten a lot of wins with him. I think it's also important because it goes back to Stormy Daniels testimony, the fact that -- look, we don't know, let's see what the jurors take away from it, but Stormy Daniels testified that Donald Trump didn't seem to care about his wife. These are some of the details that Trump's team was -- is now objecting to, that they slept in separate rooms, that he didn't wear a condom, that he didn't ask her at the time to keep it confidential. Those points are critical to the case that the prosecutors are making that maybe he was concerned about his family, but that two weeks before the election, what Trump was really concerned about was the election. And that goes to the fraudulent business records. TAPPER: And Jamie, we heard testimony from Madeleine Westerhout, Trump's former -- GANGEL: Right. TAPPER: -- personal assistant at the White House. We're told she cried a little bit on the stand. GANGEL: Right. TAPPER: Trump insiders say she's potentially an important witness because just like Hope Hicks, she was privy to a lot, she saw a lot at the White House. GANGEL: I think her testimony was actually fascinating. Once again, this is someone who is not a hostile witness to Donald Trump. In fact, the only two witnesses that I think that we're going to see who are hostile to Trump would be Stormy Daniels, and when he takes the stand, Michael Cohen. But her testimony was fascinating because she was able to testify that people at the RNC were rattled, were panicked after Access Hollywood. That sets the stage for why there would be the concern and the payment at the end of October. She also, however, when the defense got up under cross, she talked about the relationship between Donald Trump and his wife, Melania. And there was one quote here that I thought was great. She said, there was really no one else who could put him in his place, she's talking about Melania. He was my boss. She was definitely the one in charge. [17:10:08] When someone gives that kind of testimony, you have to wonder the jurors, it's very credible. So, she's not hostile. She's saying something nice about the relationship and the family. On the other hand, she's giving the context that Donald Trump micromanaged everything was on top of every detail and that people were rattled about Access Hollywood. TAPPER: All right, Jamie Gangel, thanks so much. Appreciate your insights. In just a moment, I was inside the courtroom today, I'll show you what I saw as Donald Trump's defense team tried to pick apart testimony from adult film actress and director Stormy Daniels, a key witness for the prosecution, trying to prove Trump himself knew about the falsified records, trying to hide this hush money payment to hide the alleged affair. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Welcome back. And we are still in Manhattan after a fascinating day inside the courthouse, courtroom 59, where Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial is ongoing. I got to go there today. I spent hours in court watching Mr. Trump or the back of his head. The days key witness, Stormy Daniels, the legal teams Judge Juan Merchan, he often held his head in his hands like this, the jury. [17:15:18] I'm a failed cartoonist. I happen to have an iPad along with me, along with some art software. So since cameras are not allowed in the courtroom, I decided to show you what I saw the best I could, arts, interpretive, obviously. Courtroom sketch artists, masterworks, like Jane Rosenberg. Her work's awesome. Although, look, if you look at this picture from my seat, and she had a better seat than me, from my seat, Donald Trump never was looking directly at Stormy Daniels. That's not what I saw from where I was sitting. To me, it looked more like this sketch done by artist Christine Cornel, where Donald Trump is looking straight ahead, kind of at the judge or at the monitor in front of him, not directly at Stormy Daniels, who's off to the right. And again, I was sitting in the cheap seats. They had better seats, and they're better artists as well. But let's walk through this so you can see former President Trump on the left. He's leaning back in his chair, motionlessly expressionless, staring straight ahead instead of looking off to the right where Stormy was on the right side, she's on the stand. In the bottom right, that's Trump's lawyer Susan Necheles. She was questioning Daniels. It's kind of like a podium they have there for whoever is the lawyer doing cross or redirect. For the jurors who would be on the right, but I didn't draw them because I get in trouble, watching that cross examination was like watching a tennis match or a game of ping pong constant back and forth. For the most part, Stormy Daniels was mostly serious, businesslike. She was grilled by the defense with questions about whether she profited off her relationship with Trump, questions about her credibility. There are a lot of moments like this one I'm trying to depict in this picture here where she's looking -- where the witness looks at the screens. There are a lot of screens throughout the room, slightly fewer cops, but also a lot of cops throughout the room. Susan Necheles accused Stormy of having said she would be essential, integral to Trump going to jail. Stormy said, where did I say that? Necheles showed this tweet where a Trump supporter called her a human toilet, and she said she would be the perfect one to flush the orange turd. I don't know if we have that tweet, but it would be great to show it. In court today, the former president -- there it is, making me the best person to flush the orange turd down. In court today, the former president would occasionally turn and whisper to his attorney, Todd Blanche. At one point, Trump was writing on a notepad. The prosecution and defense side barred with Judge Merchan a lot of times while I was in court. And it was really weird because although you don't see pictures of this and we're not allowed to listen to it, but up to nine lawyers all huddle up the bench, Judge Merchan stands up, leans over, they have the private little conversation. Unfortunately, those of us in the courtroom, you're not allowed to -- you're allowed to use binoculars during court but not during sidebars, because they're worried that were going to be able to lip read, which is not a talent I have. But I also met some members of the public today who were there for what I was told, they said there are five seats available for them in the room and others -- more seats in the overflow. One of them got there at 12:30 in the morning. He was second in line behind a guy that stands in lines for a living. He's a Trump supporter. He wanted to see it for himself. Anyway, that's what I saw. I want to bring in "The Washington Post," Perry Stein, and the Wall Street's Journal, Corinne Ramey. Corinne, let me start with you. What stood out most to you in court today? CORINNE RAMEY, REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: I think one thing that stood out to me was that Daniel's really seemed to hold her own, like she was asked a lot of tough questions about particularly how her story may have changed over the years -- TAPPER: Which it does seem to have. RAMEY: It absolutely has. TAPPER: Yes, yes. RAMEY: And, you know, witnesses are prepped for this. They're ready for it. But I think to hear the questions for hours and hours about her lack of credibility, her story changing, her social media history, she dealt with it well. She kept her cool. And, you know, at times you mentioned like a ping pong match, it went like that. TAPPER: Yes. The jurors are going like this the whole time, right? RAMEY: Yes, yes. At times they started talking on top of each other and she -- yes, she pushed back. TAPPER: What do you think? PERRY STEIN, JUSTICE REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes, I mean, I was really looking to see after that striking testimony on Tuesday in which Stormy Daniels, I think, gave some pretty unexpected stuff where she described it at what could be construed. She didn't use these words as a kind of non -- what an unwanted sexual encounter. So I'm talking to see -- TAPPER: Yes, not that it wasn't consensual, but that she -- STEIN: Yes, she was -- everyone, you have to be careful how you interpret it, which is why I was so curious to see how the defense would respond to this. And, you know, they went hard after her. As you said, they really tried to strike down her credibility. And Stormy Daniels, I mean, her response was, she had some sharp responses. What was it when they tried to paint her as someone who concocted all these stories in the porn industry and in her reality T.V. career? She goes, oh, well, if I had actually written and made this one up, I would have written it much better. [17:20:01] TAPPER: Right. STEIN: So, she was ready to respond to their attacks. But, yes, I mean, I was very curious how they would respond to what happened on the stand, which I thought was unexpected on Tuesday. TAPPER: Yes, it was -- you know, it's so strange. I wonder what you guys think about this. To me, it's just so strange because you have the momentousness of this trial, a former president and the presumptive republican presidential nominee on trial, criminal court. And the charges are really at times gross and they seem small and seedy and, you know, the orange turd reference. And it just seems it's discordant in a way. You know what I mean? RAMEY: I mean, I think this week in court, it was a very discordant week. You know, that first day we had -- on Monday, we had all the testimony about checks and invoices and ledgers. TAPPER: Right. RAMEY: It was incredibly Monday. TAPPER: Right. RAMEY: And I could see the jury kind of glazing over a little bit as, like, all these words you could barely read went over the screen. And they went through every -- the prosecutors went through every single document very methodically. And then the next day, Stormy Daniels gets on the stand. And it's just a totally different tone in the courtroom and a totally different level of interest from the jury, too. TAPPER: Yes, I think that's fair. And also, like, one of the things that the defense was trying to make clear was Stormy Daniels has been making money off this. She says it's been a net negative, but they say she's been making money of it. They show her merch. STEIN: Right. TAPPER: They show the hashtag team Stormy t-shirts, pink on black, the Stormy Daniels and saint indictments, prayer candle, whatever. I mean, just weird stuff. STEIN: Right. I mean, yes. I don't know what you're allowed to say here, but they did do -- TAPPER: You're allowed to say anything. STEIN: They did. They really went into the tours that she did around this -- TAPPER: To make America horny again tour. STEIN: Yes. TAPPER: Yes. STEIN: That's what I was not going to say, but yes. TAPPER: They said it in court a hundred times. We're allowed to say it on T.V. STEIN: Yes. And then you -- yes. And then at the end, you saw Todd Blanche really try to -- her attorney tried to bring it back and say, this is not a case about sex. This is a case about falsification of records. So he was really trying to bring it back. And, you know, he wants all this testimony to be disregarded. This is why he said there should be a mistrial. TAPPER: Yes. STEIN: And, you know, so he was trying at the end, at the last few minutes, the court to bring it back. It didn't seem the judge agreed with him. TAPPER: Yes. And the judge ruled against the mistrial -- STEIN: Yes. TAPPER: -- again. STEIN; Yes. RAMEY: Yes. TAPPER: Good to see you guys. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. STEIN: Good to see you too. TAPPER: The witness back on the stand tomorrow, Trump's personal assistant. She sat right outside the oval. My next guest knew her well. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:26:31] TAPPER: Today, in Donald Trump's hash money cover up trial, we heard from Madeleine Westerhout. That is a former Trump assistant at the White House. Her desk was just outside the Oval Office. She'll be back on the witness stand tomorrow. Let's bring Alyssa Farah Griffin. She was the communications director in Trump's White House. So, you know Madeleine Westerhout. Tell us about her, why she might be an important witness, and what is she like? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I wasn't surprised to hear her name called because actually when Hope Hicks was on the stand, I was thinking Madeleine sat right in the outer oval with Hope in the early days of the Trump administration. So she was his executive assistant, but very much a gatekeeper. This was an unlike any other White House, where you would go through her to get an audience with the president. Cabinet secretaries would call her, they would reach out to her, but also her proximity physically to the resolute desk where the president would take his meetings throughout the day. She could see him. She could likely hear conversations if the door was open. She's somebody who was well liked in Trump world. I don't have a bad thing to say about Maddie. She also -- I think she's somebody who presents very well. That came through in what were hearing, she's smiling to the jury. She's, you know, acknowledging the former president. I have yet to see what she offers specifically on this case, other than to simply verify that he did pay attention to both his finances and, like, documents around his finances and communications in general, so very much corroborating Hope Hicks in that regard. TAPPER: Do you doubt the charges? I mean, do you doubt that, like, there were -- that there was a falsification of business records to hide this hush money payment and that he knew about Michael Cohen doing it? GRIFFIN: I don't doubt for a minute that he had the affair, that he paid hush money, and that he tried to cover it up. But if I'm being honest, I'm not an attorney, I have yet to see the connection on the falsifying business records. I think that's where a lot of people watching this would stand. By the way, I think a lot of people, Republican voters, unfortunately, have made peace with the fact that this affair likely happened, and they just frankly don't care. So it is that -- TAPPER: I don't know if I call it an affair. GRIFFIN: Well, OK. Not romantic as they describe. TAPPER: This rendezvous. This rendezvous, yes. GRIFFIN: This rendezvous. But I think that people are going to need to see a very clear link to willingly falsifying those records. I think they've established it was for campaign intent, that was part of it, but that is the piece that I've yet to see. TAPPER: Do you think at all that, especially with the magnitude of the other charges against him, also credible charges? I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, but there -- it's a case -- GRIFFIN: Yes. TAPPER: -- when it comes to January 6, when it comes to classified documents. Do you think there is the risk that voters will look at this case and think what? GRIFFIN: It also -- it creates fatigue. I'm devastated. And I was talking to, I've got a text thread with former Trump White House officials who testified against him in January 6, and we just are stunned that this is the case we're getting before the election. That with all the evidence that was done, the committee work, the Department of Justice, it's very likely the public will not get a resolution on the January 6 charges ahead of the election. It is so much more important than anything that's been debated in this courtroom today. And it also is what would have influence with voters. The testimony that we would hear from someone like his former vice president, his former chief of staff on his actions to try to overturn the election, his lead up to January 6 and the violence that day. And instead, we're hearing this sort of tawdry, gross thing about something that he did that. I have no doubt he did, but it doesn't impact our democracy the way this other case does. [17:30:00] TAPPER: Yes. All right Alyssa Farrah Griffin, it's always great to see you, especially in person. Thanks for being here. Also this hour, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu telling his country today Israel is ready to stand alone to defeat the terrorist group Hamas in Gaza. The statement came just one day after President Biden's comments in a CNN exclusive interview with Erin Burnett, saying that if Israel's military operation goes into Gaza's southern city of Rafah, the U.S. will stop supplying certain weapons to Israel. And that's not the only reaction coming in. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …