The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired May 14, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:00:43] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to the lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, the combative cross examination of Michael Cohen as Donald Trump's legal team picks apart his testimony in the New York City hush money cover up case. Who will the defense call, if anyone, will Trump himself take the stand? The former president has evolved on that question. Plus, Israel's deadly strikes in Gaza. Local hospitals reporting at least 40 people killed. Israel says they were targeting a Hamas war room embedded in Gaza. Hear what witnesses told CNN about the attack. And a reversal from President Biden announcing new tariffs on Chinese goods. But didn't he knock Trump for that when he was candidate Biden? We'll roll the tape. Let's start the hour with the hush money cover up case, though. CNN's Paula Reid is at the court in Manhattan. Paula, today the defense got its first crack at questioning Michael Cohen and they came out swinging. PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: They sure did, Jake. Everything Cohen has said about Trump can and will be used against him in this cross examination. Under this intense questioning from Todd Blanche, Cohen was painted as someone who was, quote, "obsessed with Trump." The defense attorneys brought up the fact that prosecutors have asked Cohen multiple times to stop talking about this case and he would not. They also laid out how he has profited from his relentless attacks on the defendant, including millions of dollars that he has received for his book deals. Now for his part, Cohen copped too much of this appeared pretty steady on the stand, though, as I'm sure you saw, Todd Blanche was really jumping around a lot to a lot of different lines of questioning. I'm told this was tactical. His, Cohen's year long preparation with prosecutors was for a linear, chronological direct examination. He appeared quite comfortable there. But here, defense attorneys trying to knock him off his game. Now, tomorrow there's no court. And, Jake, the last time the Trump defense team had a break between their cross examination, it was Stormy Daniels. And they came back on Thursday with a lot of new material after working long hours to continue to prepare and also after getting some feedback from their clients. So Thursday should be wild. TAPPER: Earlier in the day, prosecutors asked Michael Cohen about the alleged crime that is at the heart of this case, these invoices that he wrote to Trump that were reportedly falsified to cover up the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election. Tell us what Cohen had to say about that. REID: Well, this was some of the more sober testimony. It is the most important to prosecutors in this case. Cohen testified while prosecutors introduced or showed him each of these checks that he received in 2017, eventually totaling $420,000. And for each check, Cohen confirmed that, yes, he falsified an invoice saying that it was for legal services, when in fact it was part of an effort to pay him back for this hush money. Also give him a bonus and pay him back for some other money that Trump owed him. Now, he also testified to a meeting between Trump, Allen Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization CFO, is currently in Rikers and himself where they agreed to this alleged conspiracy. The question now, Jake, is whether defense attorneys can do enough to undercut Cohen's credibility to make jurors doubt his account of what happened in that meeting. TAPPER: All right, Paula Reid, thanks so much. Let's discuss with "Washington Post" Justice reporter Perry Stein, who's the co-author of the "Trump Trials Newsletter." We also have with us criminal defense attorney Bernarda Villalona. Perry, yesterday you wrote that the jury in Trump's trial for weeks had been told Michael Cohen is difficult, aggressive, and even a jerk. But you think that jurors are seeing a kinder, gentler version of Cohen on the stand? Does that include today when the defense got their shot at him? How did the kinder, gentler Cohen fair when faced with a tough inquisition? PERRY STEIN, JUSTICE REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes, it included today up until cross examination started after lunch. What you saw is you saw Todd Blanche, Trump's attorney, really do these rapid fire questions to really point out the lies that Cohen has told in the past. Instead of having these decisive, calm answers, he was a little more wishy washy. He said, that sounds like something I would say, or I don't recall. He seemed to, you know, remember a lot less this time around. [17:05:12] But I think part of the intent of that questioning was to be fast, was to skip around in chronological order and to get him a little confused. TAPPER: Bernarda, today Cohen testified about the documents that were allegedly falsified, his invoices and the other ones that Trump did to cover up the Stormy Daniels payments before the 2016 election. The falsification took place in 2017. This is the crime at the center of the case. It's a misdemeanor and it bumps up to a felony if the jury buys the idea that this was done in furtherance of election interference, from hiding this from the American people. Do you think the jurors got all that? BERNARDA VILLALONA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think so, Jake, because when you think about it, from watching Michael Cohen testify yesterday and today, one thing that is clear that I got from Michael Cohen is that Michael Cohen was a loyalist to Donald Trump. Michael Cohen was Donald Trump's ride or die and was willing to do anything, including being in shot for Donald Trump. So that was clear. And no mention doing Michael Cohen's testimony, did you get that this had to do with trying to save the emotions of Melania or trying to prevent her from finding out this information. Instead, everything was driven of Stormy Daniels and this story coming out because they knew it would affect the campaign. So in terms of his testimony, I think it was clear to the jury that that was the purpose in hiding these payments. TAPPER: Perry, Trump had a bunch of allies with him today in court, not just including his legal team or his son and daughter-in-law, it included North Dakota governor Doug Burgum, who might be on the VP short list, perhaps, Congressman Byron Donalds, and Cory Mills of Florida. CNN's Kara Scannell reports that when they went back into the courtroom in the middle of Cohen's testimony, Judge Merchan looked visibly annoyed at their coming in in the middle of the trial. Did you notice this? And how typical is that for trials? STEIN: Yes, I mean, every judge has their different rules, different leniency. I didn't particularly see that. But it has been an odd day today just because this whole thing has kind of played out like a veepstakes, right? I mean, you have Donald Trump running for president who is, you know, stuck in court all day, and these people who seem to maybe want to be his vice president, they're showing his support here, even saying things that the gag order prevents for saying. They came out, attacked Michael Cohen, which Trump can't do under the gag order. So this whole situation is unusual. TAPPER: Bernarda, the prosecution spent a lot of time today introducing a new character, criminal defense attorney Robert Costello, who worked closely with Rudy Giuliani. Cohen said Costello offered this back channel communication from Costello to Rudy to Trump in spring 2018 to make sure that Cohen was not going to flip, explain why this is important to the crime in this case. And do you think jurors were following all that and the importance of it as well? VILLALONA: I think the jury was able to see that this Robert Costello guy, this attorney, was definitely a shady character, that he didn't have the best interest of Michael Cohen. That was definitely clear because he was also so brazen in terms of his e-mails to Michael Cohen about what his desire is, about how he has close connections to Rudy Giuliani, and it would be in his best interest to go with him. And at one point saying that he was even upset that Michael Cohen was entertaining, trying to go to another attorney. What's clear from that testimony to me is that you can argue consciousness of guilt on the part of Donald Trump, that you're pushing this attorney as a joint defense agreement to be able to cover yourself and make sure that this attorney is looking out for the best interest of Donald Trump and not that of Michael Cohen. I have to say this. I think because Michael Coleman was a former attorney, was an attorney at the time, that he was able to see through the BS and see that he was being used. And part of this is what hurt his feelings and actually woke him up to see that he's no longer part of that cult and that he needs to be looking out for his own best interests. TAPPER: It's still a bit of a mystery who the defense will call to testify, if anyone. Let's look back at what Trump himself has said about the possibility of his testifying. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would have no problem testifying. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm testifying. I tell the truth. I mean, all I can do is tell the truth. And the truth is that there's no case. They have no case. Well, I would if it's necessary. Right now, I don't know if you heard about today. Today was just incredible. People are saying, the experts, I'm talking about legal scholars and experts, they're saying, what kind of a case is this? There is no case. [17:10:06] Well, I'm not allowed to testify. I'm under a gag order. I guess, right? I can't even testify enough. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will the gag order stop you from testifying? TRUMP: No, it won't stop me from justify. The gag order is not for testify. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Bernarda, you're a defense attorney. Would you let Trump take the stand in this case if you were representing him? VILLALONA: If I were representing Donald Trump, two things, I'll make sure that I get paid up front. And second, I would strongly advise him not to testify because of course, the decision to testify is of the defendant alone, not of the attorney. So several reasons why he shouldn't testify, each and every tweet, each and every post that he's placed, every statement that he's made in his book, he's going to be confronted with it. So everything that the prosecution has put in evidence, he's going to be confronted with it and he's not going to have a good explanation. He's not going to play well in front of this jury. Secondly, about that, the Sandoval hearing, he's going to be cross examined as to the E. Jean Carroll final findings, the New York attorney general findings, and also how he was fined a $5,000 and $10,000 in contempt. So he's just too open to so many things that he's not going to fare well in front of this jury. So the answer is no. TAPPER: Bernarda Villalona and Perry Stein of "The Washington Post," thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it. Great to see both of you. As the Trump trial plays out in New York, legal action in D.C. might put a former Trump adviser closer to prison himself. The Department of Justice wants a federal judge to order Steve Bannon to begin serving a four month prison sentence. CNN's Evan Perez is here. And Evan, Bannon had remained out of prison while his appeal of a contempt of Congress conviction played out. But that conviction was just upheld. EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. It was upheld, Jake, by the D.C. Court of Appeals. And now the Justice Department is telling the judge who oversaw the case and who had put his time of imprisonment on hold, they're asking for the judge to order him to report to prison. And they're pointing out that, you know, because the D.C. circuit has already rejected his appeals, that there's really no good reason. And unless he's just trying to delay that process, of course, that is part of the game here because Steve Bannon, of course, is hoping that Donald Trump wins in November and perhaps could wipe away this whole thing. The judge, Carl Nichols, who's overseeing this case, Jake, has ordered Bannon to respond by Thursday on what to do about this. Ill point out, Jake, that his attorney, David Schoen, has already put out a statement saying that they're planning to continue fighting this. They're going to ask for a further appeal with the court of appeals and perhaps beyond that, Jake. TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thank you so much. A gag order may keep Donald Trump from saying anything publicly about witnesses such as Michael Cohen, but that is certainly not stopping his supporters. What the House Speaker Mike Johnson said outside the courthouse about the prosecution star witness. Plus, as a candidate, Joe Biden criticized Donald Trump for the tariffs on Chinese imports in 2019. But now President Biden is announcing his own version of these tariffs. What's the difference? We'll dive into that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:13] TAPPER: In Manhattan, Trump allies and potential running mates have been lining up to show their support for the former president. The latest and most senior Republican to defend Trump outside the courthouse is the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: This is the fifth week that President Trump has been in court for this sham of a trial. They are doing this intentionally to keep him here and keep him off of the campaign trail. I came here again today on my own to support President Trump, because I am one of hundreds of millions of people and one citizen who is deeply concerned about this. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Under a gag order, Trump himself risks jail time if he attacks witnesses in his trial. So now his political allies, including Speaker Johnson, are doing what Trump is legally not allowed to do right now, hammering the credibility of the number one witness who is testifying right now, Michael Cohen, outside the courthouse. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHNSON: This is a man who is clearly on a mission for personal revenge and who is widely known as a witness who has trouble with the truth. He is someone who has a history of perjury and is well known for it. No one should believe a word he says today. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Also showing their support, North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, Florida Congressman Byron Donalds and Corey Mills, and former presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy. Let's bring in the panel and talk about this. So shortly after Mike Johnson became speaker, he told Sean Hannity that the best way to understand his worldview was if you pick up a viable. And today he is defending Donald Trump in this porn related case. And the speaker of the House is also fundraising off of his appearance at Trump's trial. Former congresswoman Liz Cheney criticized Speaker Johnson on X, saying, quote, "Have to admit, I'm surprised that Speaker Johnson wants to be in the, I cheated on my wife with a porn star club. I guess he's not that concerned with teaching morality to our young people after all." David Polyansky, what's your reaction, fair or unfair from Liz Cheney? DAVID POLYANSKY, FORMER DESANTIS DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, look, I mean, if you want to be vice president of the United States, and let's be clear today with the polling as we see it, not just nationally, but more importantly in the battleground states, if the election were held today, Donald Trump would be president again. TAPPER: If the polls are accurate. POLYANSKY: If the polls are accurate, usually when you're arguing against polls, you're losing. TAPPER: I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm just saying that's the caveat. Yes. POLYANSKY: And I think in this case, I think, look, if you want to be the number two on this ticket, not just chosen with a real opportunity to be in that White House as vice president of the United States, you show up at that trial and you make an appearance. TAPPER: Do you think Speaker Johnson is on the VP short list? POLYANSKY: No, I don't, but I think he's -- look, it's a very difficult job for him to wrangle every single Republican in that conference, which a diverse setting of views, a handful of Republicans can change, not just -- [17:20:07] TAPPER: But it helps him in that task. Speaker Johnson, sure. POLYANSKY: Absolutely. NAYYERA HAQ, SENIOR DIRECTOR OF CABINET AFFAIRS, OBAMA ADMIN.: Well, because he didn't have to do this press conference. Let's be clear. TAPPER: Right. HAQ: There is, considering how much is at stake in Congress right now, and they barely have that one vote majority. The only reason anything's gotten done is because he's had to work across the aisle and get Democrats to support some of these most basic provisions, passing a budget, passing national security funding. Speaker Johnson is clearly now running towards that. Well, the bible is about power and what I can do with that power and access. I'm shocked, actually, that he was talking about Michael Cohen in that clip when he talks about perjurer, criminal, somebody who has a hard time with the truth, that actually sounded like he was talking about Donald Trump. TAPPER: Well, listen to what Speaker Johnson had to say about this trial itself. Cause it's pretty stark. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHNSON: I'm an attorney. I'm a former litigator myself. I am disgusted by what is happening here, what is being done here to our entire system of justice overall. The people are losing faith right now in this country, in our institutions. They're losing faith in our system of justice. And the reason for that is because they see it being abused as it is being done here in New York. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Now, by the way, across the street, the Democratic Senator Bob Menendez of New Jersey has his own trial going on for corruption. And also there was just a recent indictment of a Democratic congressman in Texas. So, just some context here in terms of political prosecutions. NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Listen, you know, I think if you're Donald Trump, this is, you know, obviously a message he wants to hear. He wants more people to say it, right? And people who are sort of more establishment in some ways, who are more well-spoken, I think, obviously, Mike Johnson sort of fits into that category. It also, I think, gets to the fact that Donald Trump might be a little worried about what we've been seeing in the courtroom over the last couple of days with Stormy Daniels testimony wasn't really flattering to him so he gets, you know, a real boost from somebody like Mike Johnson and all of these vice presidents or want to be vice presidents -- TAPPER: Right. HENDERSON: -- going out there and sort of engaging in this reality show contest that is going to be the vice president's race. TAPPER: So hold on one second, because I want to bring in something else that happened today. I want to go to the White House, where President Biden announced today he's raising tariffs on Chinese imports, including electric vehicles and solar cells and semiconductors. CNN's Kayla Tausche live for us at the White House. Kayla, interesting move by Biden. Some might even say Trump ask. And interesting timing. Why is he doing it now? KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the administration, Jake, has been studying this for several years, but there are a few reasons why now. The first is that the U.S. wants other allies to follow suit. Specifically, it wants the European Union and the G7 to discuss this very issue at some of the summits coming up this summer. The EU has its own investigation into tariffs on electric vehicles with a July deadline, and they really want Europe to join them in this fight. But today, two of the leaders from the more auto heavy countries cast some doubt on that. In a joint appearance, Sweden's prime minister said this when asked if Sweden and Germany would be putting tariffs on EV's, he said, "It is fundamentally a bad idea to dismantle global trade. A wider trade war where we block each other's products is not the way to go for industrial nations such as Germany and Sweden." But of course here at home, it also helps set the political agenda going into the election and helps Biden keep pace with Trump politically. Trump, you may remember, has proposed increasing tariffs on all goods from China to 60 percent. And there are also, Jake, many inside the White House who are pushing Biden to announce this policy before his Pittsburgh speech. But they were worried that doing this earlier would have potentially disrupted some diplomatic visits that happened last month. TAPPER: So, Kayla, in 2019, when he was running for president, Joe Biden criticized Trump for imposing tariffs on China. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: President Trump may think his being tough on China. All that he has delivered as a consequence of that is American farmers, manufacturers and consumers losing and paying more. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: But now Kayla, Biden is keeping those tariffs that Trump imposed. TAUSCHE: He is, and despite some within the White House suggesting that some of those tariffs on consumer products should be removed. But ultimately, that debate was lost because there were worries about the message it would send to labor and to send to manufacturing heavy states. But today, Jake, Biden's top trade official tried to explain this seeming about face. She said that the reason why the Trump tariffs were ill conceived was because they brought about chaos and instability. And she argued that the link between tariffs and higher consumer prices has since been debunked, even though economists largely agree that importers do face higher prices. [17:25:01] It is worth noting, though, that some of the financial pain that was wrought during the last administration was because of really hefty retaliation from Beijing. There's some retaliation expected this time around, but because it's such a smaller group of imports, it's going to be impacted and phased out over two years. The hope within the administration is that some of that counterpunching will be limited here. TAPPER: Interesting stuff. Kayla Tausche, at the White House, thanks so much. Today, Trump responded by accusing Biden of taking a page out of the Trump playbook. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: On the electric vehicles that Biden is pushing down everybody's throat, even though people don't want them. He wants to put a big tariff on China, which is a suggestion that I said, where have you been for three and a half years? They should have done it a long time ago, but they've also got to do it on other vehicles and they have to do it on a lot of other products because China's eating our lunch right now. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: So first of all, fact check. I don't, I think demand for electric vehicles in the United States has never been higher. So the idea, nobody wants them, not true. But Nia-Malika, more importantly, what are these tariffs actually going to do? How will they affect consumers? HENDERSON: Yes, well, listen, I think this is the Biden's attempt to really get tough on these issues, right? If you look at electric vehicles, semiconductors, these batteries and sort of emerging markets, this is their attempt to really get ahead of where China is. So, listen, there could be some blowback from China in terms of higher prices that could be passed along to consumers. But I think politically, you know, this is a real reversal from Biden, who was down on these tariffs, $300 billion or so that Trump imposed, he's keeping those and then $18 billion more in tariffs. I think it's a real attempt to get around this idea that Trump was better on the economy. TAPPER: And Nayyera, I'm coming right to you. Colorado's governor, a Democrat who considers himself kind of like a pro-business Democrat, he's criticizing Biden. He says, Jared Polis, who says "This is horrible news for American consumers and a major setback for clean energy. Tariffs are a direct regressive tax on Americans and this tax increase will hit every family." HAQ: It's going to be a real challenge because Democratic caucus and members of Congress are not unified on what the trade war with China should look like. Should it be permanent relations, trade relations? Should it not? The reality is, though, that our economies are so intertwined. And what Biden -- TAPPER: Yes. HAQ: -- has been trying to do is decouple. It's a fancy way of saying let's make sure we supply chain is connected with Vietnam. We're boosting other countries, that is in combination with tariffs, whereas Trump was more just a pull in a China shop. TAPPER: What do you think of this? And how much do you think this is about, like Michigan or the industrial Midwest? POLYANSKY: Well, look, I think there were stories disporting that the president, some of his advisors don't believe the polls. And I think this is further evidence that might be right. Look, the fact of the matter is voters have been telling us inflation is their top issue and what the numbers that came out today back it up. And instead the administration leads today with tariffs. But the headline of it is quadrupling tariffs on electric vehicles. And while at the same time the president's going to have to go into Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. And by the way, where he's probably going to have to run the table looking at the sunbelt numbers of late. And instead his EPA has regulated and demanded that they're going to phase out gas powered vehicles over the next several years and mandate electric vehicles in its place. That's a real tough sell in those states. And leaving today on tariffs in support of electric vehicles is only another needle in their eyes. TAPPER: All right, thanks to one and all. Appreciate it. Good to see all of you. Coming up next, how ancient tree rings, a dire warning, and why zombie fires are causing alarms. Stay with us. 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