The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired May 21, 2024 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:00:06] … (MUSIC) ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news. JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. And we were following breaking news out of New York. Of course, where today in Donald Trump's hush money trial, the defense rested. Right now in court, there's a meeting to determine what the judge will tell the jury next week before the jury begins deliberating what will no doubt be a monumental verdict, one way or the other in the very first ever criminal trial of a former president. Trump himself is at this court meeting. And we'll bring you all the updates coming up. But leading this hour, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu joins us live from Jerusalem a day after the historic decision by the International Criminal Court in The Hague to seek arrest warrants not only for the three top leaders of the terrorist group Hamas, but for Prime Minister Netanyahu and his defense minister, Yoav Gallant, over what the top ICC prosecutor calls war crimes in Gaza. According to the ICC, the charges against Netanyahu include -- quote -- "causing extermination, causing starvation as a method of warfare, including the denial of humanitarian relief and supplies, and deliberately targeting civilians in conflict." And Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu joins us right now. Prime Minister Netanyahu, thank you so much for joining us. A central part of the ICC's charges against you and Gallant is -- quote -- "starvation of civilians as a method of warfare." Now, I know that Israel repeatedly claims that enough aid is getting in and there is not a purposeful starvation, that those claiming otherwise are misinformed, are lying. Is Israel going to send a delegation to The Hague to present any evidence to defend itself? BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I think these charges are exactly as President Biden called them. They're outrageous. They're beyond outrageous. This is a rogue prosecutor that has put false charges and created false symmetries that are both dangerous and false. And the first false symmetry is, he equates the democratically elected leaders of Israel with the terrorist tyrants of Hamas. That's like saying that, well, I'm issuing the arrest warrants for FDR and Churchill, but also for Hitler, or I'm issuing arrest warrants for George Bush, George W. Bush, but also for bin Laden. That's absurd. Secondly, the charges are completely false. Let's take this charge of starvation. We have put in 500,000 tons of trucks, of food and medicine for this population. We have taken 20,000 trucks. We have paved roads to put those trucks in. We have opened border crossings that Hamas closed down. I have had airdrops that have facilitated, sea route supplies. I mean, the whole thing is absurd. You should know this. I mean, the prices of food in Gaza has dropped by 80 percent. The markets don't lie. They talk about 23, I think, or 30 cases of malnutrition in a population of two million. OK, the United States in 2022 had 20,000 deaths of malnutrition. That's three times more than in Gaza. This is completely false. It's the kind of slander that has been leveled the Jewish people for ages, and it's renewed now against the Jewish state. It was false then. It's false now. But one thing, this prosecutor, this rogue prosecutor... TAPPER: Mm-hmm. NETANYAHU: ... didn't even bother to come here. He said he'd come here and check the facts. He didn't check the facts. He just went out and demonized the Jewish state, and he's taking the ICC down the route of the General Assembly that passes infinite resolutions, flat-Earth resolutions against Israel, or the Human Rights Council that used to have a reputation that is completely blown because half their resolutions are against Israel... TAPPER: Right. NETANYAHU: ... not against Iran, not against North Korea, not against Syria. It's the same thing. TAPPER: So, we should... NETANYAHU: It's outrageous and false and dangerous, because it endangers every democracy. TAPPER: We should note, though, it's not just the ICC expressing concerns about the lack of humanitarian aid getting into Gaza. President Biden and his administration and their officials, not to mention European allies of Israel and their officials, they have all been making this case for months that Israel is not letting enough aid in. So, when President Biden expresses concern about you not letting enough aid in, is he wrong? NETANYAHU: Well, no, we have the same concerns. We were trying to get the aid in. We got the aid in, and Hamas was looting the aid. That's what was happening. They were taking it for themselves or extorting the population. [16:05:02] We were letting the aid in from the start. And, look, I have been -- this was my directive from day one. The day one thing was, we have to provide -- we comport with international law. We comport with the rules of war. We have to get those trucks in. We're getting hundreds of trucks every day in. And that's been an aspect of our conducting -- conduct of war, because we try to get civilians out of harm's way. We have done things that no country, no army has done in history. It's not me saying that. It's General Petraeus saying that. The head of the urban warfare at West Point, Colonel John Spencer, says it. Israel's gone out of its way, both in humanitarian aid and getting civilians out of harm's way with millions of text messages, millions of phone calls, and leaflets that we have been dropping, giving up the element of surprise. Israel is given here a bum rap. It's -- I think it's dangerous, because, basically, it's the first democracy that is being taken to the dock when it is doing exactly what democracy should be doing in an exemplary way. I think it will endanger all other democracies. Israel may be first. You're next. Britain is next. Others are next too. And the second thing that is dangerous about this, Jake, is, I think this fans the fires of antisemitism that are raging on American campuses and throughout Western capitals. They're pouring gas. He just poured gasoline on it... TAPPER: Mm-hmm. NETANYAHU: ... this rogue prosecutor, Khan. TAPPER: So... NETANYAHU: Because people initially will think this is serious. They think the ICC, this is a serious thing. It's not. TAPPER: Well... NETANYAHU: It's a travesty of justice, and it's a pack of lies. TAPPER: Let me ask you, because what Hamas did on October 7 -- just to make this clear, what Hamas did is abhorrent, as is the refusal to return the hostages, abhorrent. But whether or not it was Israel's intent, tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians, including countless children, have been killed and maimed by the IDF in your war against Hamas. Is there anything you and the IDF could have done any differently to avoid all the loss of innocent lives in Gaza? NETANYAHU: First of all, every civilian casualty is a tragedy. Every child lost or every woman lost or every innocent person lost is a tragedy. But, for Hamas, it's a strategy. So while we go out of our way to get them out of harm's way, Hamas goes out of its way to keep them in harm's way, shooting at them if they try to leave the battle zones. But many have left the -- thankfully, I can say that. Now, the ratio -- because of our actions, the ratio of civilians to combatants killed is the lowest in the history of urban warfare, and certainly dense urban warfare like this. It's about one to one. There are about 14,000 casualties -- or 14,000 to 15,000 terrorists killed and an equal amount of civilians that were unfortunately killed, because that's what happens. But, in other arenas, in Fallujah, with a handful of terrorists, 3,000, 4,000, compared to 35,000 in Gaza, the ratio was much bigger than that. The same thing in Mosul. So we have gone out of our way to stop it. And let me tell you, I think that the numbers are also inflated. The U.N. -- the U.N. organizations that are dominated by Hamas in Gaza is giving false information, as is Hamas itself. And people believe these numbers. The other day, they came and said, well, it's about 35,000 who are killed, but 10,000 of those we said are women and children, now we can't say that. We don't know who they are. TAPPER: Well, whatever the numbers are, it's too many. NETANYAHU: So, they -- in the meantime, the lie circles -- well, look, yes, one is too many. But the reason they're there, the reason we have civilian casualties at all is because Hamas is preventing them from leaving. I'm happy to say that, in the Rafah operation that we have conducted, a million people actually left. People said, well, there are a million people, 1.2 million, in Gaza. Where are they going to go? They're going to be trapped. Well, a million, 950,000 have already left. And there are very few civilian casualties because we're doing everything to get them out. This is our policy. TAPPER: So... NETANYAHU: It's humanitarian. It's responsible. We comport with the laws of war. And we're the ones taken to the dock. And it doesn't give any -- it doesn't give any solace that they're also taking these killers of Hamas, these murderers, and putting them in the dock. As I said, Hitler's in the dock, but so is FDR and so is Eisenhower. Absurd. TAPPER: After seven months of unity for your wartime government, there seems a lot of disagreement now about your plans for Gaza, or lack thereof, after major military operations in Gaza is over. Benny Gantz wants a plan, or he says he's going to leave your government. Your defense minister, Yoav Gallant, says you don't have a plan. He's basically accusing you of trying to lay the groundwork for an occupation, either civilian or military, in Gaza in the future. Are you denying that the plan is for an occupation of Gaza, or are you taking it off the table? NETANYAHU: No, I have a very clear plan. I think, the first thing, the day after Hamas, Jake, is the day after Hamas. [16:10:01] We have to get rid of Hamas. Otherwise, there's no future for Gaza, no future for peace, and it'll be a tremendous victory for -- not only for Hamas, but for the Iran terror axis that backs it and organizes Hezbollah, the Houthis, and all these other sundry terrorist organizations. So, I think we have to defeat Hamas, and we will defeat Hamas. Rafah is the last stronghold of Hamas terrorist battalions. We will defeat them. That ends the intense part of the fighting. But once Hamas is defeated, what we have to do is have sustained demilitarization of Gaza. And, yes, on this, I think the only force that can prevent the resurgence of terrorism for the foreseeable future is Israel. At the same time, we want, I want a civilian administration that is run by Gazans who are neither Hamas nor committed to our destruction. TAPPER: So you're taking it off the table? NETANYAHU: And the third thing that we need to do is -- no, I'm not. I'm putting it on the table, on the contrary. No, that's not true. In fact, I'm... (CROSSTALK) TAPPER: Yes, I'm saying you're taking off an Israeli occupation of Gaza? You're taking off the table an Israeli... NETANYAHU: If you mean -- if you mean resettling, if you mean resettling Gaza, yes, I -- it was never in the cards, and I said so openly. And some of my constituents are not happy about it, but that's my position. The third thing that I would do is have a reconstruction of Gaza, if possible, done by the moderate Arab states and the international community. That's demilitarization, civilian administration by local Gazans who are not committed to Israel's destruction, and responsible reconstruction. That, I think, is a realistic plan, and I have said so. Look, if some people are not happy with it, maybe they want to put in the Palestinian Authority that is -- still teaches its children to seek the destruction of Israel, pays terrorists, the more terrorists -- the more Jews they kill, the more they pay, and supports terrorism. That's not my position. I want a different future for Israelis and Palestinians alike. TAPPER: I have two... NETANYAHU: I think it will affect the future of peace in the Middle East. TAPPER: Two more questions for you, sir, because I know your time is limited. Three people familiar with the cease-fire discussions that fell through earlier this month tell our reporter Alex Marquardt that Egyptian intelligence quietly changed the terms that Israel had already agreed to in order to get Hamas on board. Does this raise concerns for you about Egypt being involved moving forward? NETANYAHU: Look, I think we have a goal, which is not only to defeat Hamas, but also to release the hostages. My government has been able to secure the release of 124 hostages so far, and we're committed to get the rest. Hamas, unfortunately, has been hunkering down on a demand that is simple. They say, well, we can release the rest of the hostages, maybe, but, in order to do that, you have to get out of Gaza, end the war, and allow us basically to regroup and reconquer Gaza. And they vow to commit the October 7 massacre, this horror of beheadings and raping of women, beheading women after they rape them, the burning of babies, the slaughter of the innocent, the taking of hostages, we will do that again and again and again. So that's something I won't agree to. And I hope Egypt understands that we can't agree to something like that. That's not something that we can countenance. And neither can the people of Israel. By the way, the overwhelming majority of Israelis support this policy. And I can tell you that, the other day, by the way, yesterday, we had a resolution in the Knesset where 106 out of 120 Knesset members supported a resolution that says you cannot accept the ICC statement. You cannot accept it. We reject it. It's a farce, and we have to stand up to it. And I can tell you, I don't remember that Israelis -- I don't remember the Knesset agreeing, 106 Knesset members out of 120 agreeing on anything. TAPPER: But, Mr. Prime Minister, you say that the majority of the American people are with you on this plan, but a poll from the Israel Democracy Institute from this month showed a majority of Israelis, 56 percent, say getting the hostages back home should be a higher priority than military action in Rafah. So, don't you just fundamentally disagree with the majority of the Israeli people? NETANYAHU: Well, I have seen other numbers, but I take a different thing. I don't say this is more important and that is more important. I say both of them are important. And, in fact, the military action that we've taken against Hamas is, in fact, the way to get these hostages, because, without military pressure, basically, without squeezing them, Hamas is not going to give up anything. That's the reason they gave up the first half of the hostages. And that's the reason they will give up the second half. So I don't see -- I see them as complementary and not contradictory goals. And I intend to fulfill both of them. TAPPER: Before you go, sir, we should note, while we appreciate your talking to us, according to the independent Israeli media monitor The Seventh Eye, you have done about two dozen interviews since October 7, but all of them in English and all the outlets outside Israel. [16:15:02] I don't want to begrudge that. I appreciate you doing an interview with us. But why are you not speaking with Israeli journalists the way you are with me? NETANYAHU: That's the tendentious reporting of some of -- a lot of the Israeli media. So I can tell you, what they're not telling you is, I have done -- I don't know if it's two dozen or 20 or 15 press conferences with Israeli media. They can ask anything they want. And they do. And I just met Israeli reporters the other day in Rafah, in fact, three days ago, and they asked me all the questions they want. So that's simply not true. I speak to them, and I speak to you, and I welcome the opportunity to tell the truth and dispel the lies in both -- in both mediums. TAPPER: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. NETANYAHU: Thank you. TAPPER: Let's get some reaction to what we just heard from the prime minister. Plus, catch you up on the key arguments happening right now in the New York hush money cover-up case. We're also just getting in some brand new details on another criminal case against Trump, the federal classified documents case. We're going to squeeze in a very quick break. We'll be right back with all that new stuff. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:20:06] TAPPER: Back with our world lead, we just heard Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defend himself and his government after this historic application for his arrest by the International Criminal Court. Netanyahu also said, the numbers of civilians killed in Gaza are, quote, inflated by Gazans and by Hamas and the outright said he did not want a reoccupation of Gaza by the Israeli military or government though far-right members of his cabinet are indeed calling for it. Joining us now to help digest, former deputy director of national intelligence and CNN, national security analyst Beth Sanner. Beth, what was your biggest takeaway from the interview? BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think the idea is for me is how he's arguing this and I feel like he's arguing it in the way I wouldn't argue it. You know, first, absolutely, I'm not equivocating what Hamas did and what Israel is doing, totally fair. But I don't really feel like he's arguing it on the merits of the case. There are lots of things about the lack of merits of this case that can be argued. And instead, he's kind of doubling down on, you know, all the things that Israel has done to provide food and all -- you know, there's no starvation, nothing to see here in Gaza. But, you know, for all of us watching the TV, I think you can say, okay, I don't think this rises to war crimes, but I feel like something isn't going well in Gaza regarding human rights and the State Department report that you referred to kind of says that. TAPPER: Yeah. SANNER: It just -- you know, so why not -- TAPPER: You think you would be more credible if he acknowledged that -- look, we had to make for example, look, we had to do security checks to make sure that these trucks didn't have weapons and that took a long unfortunately, that took a long time or whatever. I'm just but some sort of acknowledgment of the reality. SANNER: Yes. I think that this kind of -- I feel like were looking at were in an alternative universe when I listened to him. And that doesn't mean I think that the ICC is right, but here we are again where were kind of arguing about things that you don't like the realities don't comport. All we have to do is watch our own TV and see that that doesn't feel right. TAPPER: So there's obviously a lot of division in his war cabinet right now with both Gallant and Gantz saying there's no plan for the day after. SANNER: Right. TAPPER: The so-called day after when the mate major military operations come through. He presented a plan. It was a very kind of, I don't want to -- I don't want to say glib, but it was a four-point plan with not a lot of detail saying that you want the major moderate Arab nations to come in and help out. It's not the same thing as saying, we have secured commitments from Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE and E -- you know what I mean? So -- SANNER: It's not a plan. TAPPER: Yeah. SANNER: That's not a plan. That's like a statement of theory. That's like, you know, what China says is there peace plan for Russia, Ukraine. It's not a plan. It's a statement. And, you know, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff just said yesterday publicly that Israel isn't conducting this war in a way that solves the problem. That's why they keep having to go back in and refight battles is because there's no one on the ground now in order to manage what he said Hamas taking over aid shipments, true, right? All of this is true, but you -- if you don't actually have a plan and you're not doing something to set up some sort of authority on the ground now -- TAPPER: Yeah. SANNER: -- then it you're going to be in an endless cycle. I mean, we are in -- we're on the gerbil wheel here and no one is -- I don't know when we get off. TAPPER: Well, and it's not just, you know, Americans saying that its members of his own wartime cabinet -- SANNER: Exactly. TAPPER: -- which is got to be troubling for him. SANNER: It should be, but all of a sudden, we have one issue that everyone agrees on for the first time in -- since the beginning of this war. And that is that the ICC process of moving towards these arrests is absolutely unwarranted and everybody agrees on this. So this is -- you know, this is a gift to Netanyahu. I remember we were here at the very beginning of this war and you asked me about Netanyahu and you said, well, what do you think is prospects are and I said, you know, glibly, dead man walking, right? And now I don't feel that way at all. I feel like this is giving Netanyahu and other lease on life even if Gantz ends up pulling out of the war cabinet. He's not -- his government's not going to fall. So, you know, I think that we are in a very different place. TAPPER: Beth Sanner, thanks so much. Appreciate it. The debate over jury instructions is happening right now in that courtroom 39 in the hush money cover-up trial. [16:25:01] Plus, brand new details in another criminal case involving Trump. And stunning images coming in from Iowa, near Corning, Iowa, that's southwest of Des Moines, a reported tornado on the ground. Take a look at that. This is breaking right now. Keep it here for updates on this one. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …