The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired May 21, 2024 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:00:06] … DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: …And when they come from? He came from Washington, D.C., the White House, and the DOJ, and he argued the case. That means it's Biden. The Lead with Jake Tapper Aired May 21, 2024 - 17:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [17:00:00] DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: …That means it's election interference by Sleepy Joe, our dumb as Iraq president who's destroying our country with the borders and destroying our country with the worst economy, worst inflation, who allowed Russia to go in to attack Ukraine, who allowed Israel to be attacked and now he's not even helping Israel. And Jewish people that go for Biden and the Democrats, they should have their head examine. Thank you very much. JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: OK. So let's bring in CNN's Tom Foreman fact checking what we just heard from Donald Trump. Mr. Foreman. TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a lot of what we've heard before, Jake. It's actually remarkable how little invention there is in this same old thing saying it's on the White House case. The White House is prosecuting this. No, it is not. Alvin Bragg is a locally elected official. He's been chosen up there. He has not been chosen by the White House. He's not pushing the White House's case. He says it's all about stopping him because he's leading candidate. Same answer, this is a local prosecution of this. Again, with the legal experts all of them all say it's fake, it's false, not true. He said the American people see this trial as a fraud and a waste of time. That's not true either. Back when he was indicted, in fact, 60 percent of Americans in a CNN poll approved of him being indicted. And he referred to this as again and again and again, it's all a fraud, it's all fake, there's nothing to it. There is evidence here. Whether or not you agree with the evidence, whether or not you think it's a good case, there is evidence here they're proceeding with. And he referred to it all being the work of Joe Biden, who he said is commonly known as Crooked Joe. He may be known as that at Mar-a-Lago, but most of the country knows Joe Biden as Mr. President. So a lot there, Jake, not much new. TAPPER: All right, Tom Foreman, thanks so much. Appreciate it. If you're just joining us, welcome to The Lead. I'm Jake Tapper. This hour, new sparring in the New York hush money cover up trial as the prosecution and defense are trying to hash out the specifics on what the jury should be told. Hold in jury instructions next Wednesday. This is one of the most critical junctures before jurors begin to deliberate this case next week. Plus, extreme turbulence on what sounds like a nightmare flight, a Boeing plane dropping suddenly. One person actually died. What investigators are now saying about what could have possibly gone wrong here. Leading this hour, my interview earlier with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu just minutes ago on CNN, pushing back on the International Criminal Court calling for a warrant for his arrest over what the ICC is calling war crimes in Gaza. Here's a bit of that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Is there anything you and the IDF could have done any differently to avoid all the loss of innocent lives in Gaza? BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: First of all, every civilian casualty is a tragedy. Every child lost or every woman lost or every innocent person lost is a tragedy. But for Hamas, it's a strategy. So while we go out of our way to get them out of harm's way, Hamas goes out of its way to keep them in harm's way, shooting at them if they try to leave the battle zones. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Let's go right to CNN's Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem and Alex Marquardt here in D.C. Jeremy, Netanyahu had a lot to say when I pressed him on Israel not allowing aid into Gaza. Fact check some of what he had to say. JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, as you pressed him on that, the Israeli prime minister offered no acknowledgement of the reality of the hunger that has spread throughout Gaza Strip. And he also, as he talked about the amount of aid that has gotten in, his numbers were right in terms of 500,000 tons of aid, more than 20,000 trucks getting in. But these numbers were devoid of context, the context of the enormous amounts of pressure that had to be brought to bear for that amount of aid to be allowed in by Israel for the months that it took for a crossing into northern Gaza to be opened by the Israeli government. He didn't talk about the month of February, when fewer than 100 trucks of aid per day got into Gaza, prompting a major global security, global food security organization the month after to warn of imminent famine in the Gaza Strip. The Israeli prime minister also said that his government from day one was committed to allowing aid into Gaza. That's simply not true. His government declared a total siege of the Gaza Strip. It took two weeks into the war for the first aid trucks to get in. And lastly, Jake, he also falsely claimed that Karim Khan, that ICC top prosecutor, never visited Israel. Karim Khan actually did visit Israel. He even visited kibbutz Be'eri, Kfar Aza to visit the sites of the October 7 massacre, to meet with the families of the victims of that massacre as well as survivors. All of that leading him to, on the other side, seek arrest warrants not only against the Israeli prime minister and the Israeli defense minister, but in this case, against Hamas leaders. [17:05:03] TAPPER: And, Alex, you have new reporting about a senior Egyptian intelligence officer quietly changing the terms of the ceasefire proposal earlier this month before it was presented to Hamas. We asked Netanyahu about your scoop. Take a listen to his answer. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NETANYAHU: Look, I think we have a goal which is not only to defeat Hamas, but also to release the hostages. My government has been able to secure the release of 124 hostages so far, and we're committed to get the rest. Hamas, unfortunately, has been hunkering down on a demand that is simple. They say, well, we can release the rest of the hostages, maybe, but in order to do that, you have to get out of Gaza, end the war, and allow us basically to regroup and reconquer Gaza. So that's something I won't agree to, and I hope Egypt understands that we can't agree to something like that. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Tell us more, Alex, about what your sources are telling you. ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake Netanyahu, they're laying out the main sticking point between the two sides that Hamas essentially wants an end to the war and the idea to be pulled out of Gaza. And Netanyahu is saying essentially, we're not going to talk about that until the hostages start coming home and that they want to keep going after Hamas. But what we understand, sources telling Jeremy Diamond and myself, is that there was a deal on the table that Israel had all but agreed to. This was a deal that the U.S. was saying was extraordinarily generous. It was something that Egypt was aware of. Egypt took that deal back and started talking to Hamas and realized that Hamas was not going to go for a lot of the terms of this deal. And so, Egyptian intelligence and one senior Egyptian intelligence official in particular, whose name is Ahmed Abdel Khalek, started to change the terms in a way that it would be more palatable to Hamas, and that was given to Hamas. And, Jake, you'll remember three weeks ago on May 6, Hamas said that they accepted the deal. And there was this brief moment of celebration until everyone realized that this was not the deal that had been agreed to by Israel, that had been talked about with the other mediators, the U.S. and Qatar. One source telling me, we were all duped to the point where even Hamas might have been duped. That same source saying that Hamas officials were telling other members that they believed that a ceasefire was going to start imminently. Now, the main us official who has been in charge of trying to get this deal across the line is the CIA director, Bill Burns. He's very mild mannered, as you know, Jake. I'm told that he almost blew a gasket. Now, the talks didn't fall apart in that very moment, but just a couple days later, I was told by several sources that they were paused. They have not picked up since, and it does not look like those conversations are going to start anytime soon, Jake. TAPPER: All right, Alex Marquardt and Jeremy Diamond, thanks to both of you. Joining us now to discuss, Republican Senator Dan Sullivan of Alaska. Senator, let's start with what we heard from Prime Minister Netanyahu when I asked him about his long term plans for the day after. SEN. DAN SULLIVAN (R-AK), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yes. TAPPER: Is Israel going to occupy Gaza, whether militarily or with the civilian government? This is what he had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: Taking off the table on Israeli -- NETANYAHU: If you mean resettling -- if you mean resettling Gaza, yes, it was never in the cards and I said so openly, and some of my constituents are not happy about it. But that's my position. I would do is have a reconstruction of Gaza, if possible, done by the moderate Arab states and the international community. (END VIDEO CLIP) TAPPER: He says that he wants Gaza to be run by Gazans and he wants Gaza there to be a reconstruction by Arab states and the international community. SULLIVAN: Yes. TAPPER: I mean, I want to be 25 again. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. You know what I mean? Like, it's very easy to say such a thing, but how does it happen? SULLIVAN: Well, look, I think his point on the moderate Arab states is a really important one, right? Right now, as you probably know, Jake, they have not stepped up in terms of economic assistance. Traditionally, the United States has been the largest supplier of economic assistance before October 7. But I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves, right? We need to continue to enable Israel to destroy Hamas. Nothing matters beyond that initial objective. We also need to work with them to make sure that innocent lives are spared. And we limit the number of casualties in Gaza in the West Bank. TAPPER: Do you think they're doing everything they can to limit the number of casualties? Because it doesn't sound like the Biden administration does. SULLIVAN: Well, look, you asked an important question, you asked a pointed question. As you know, what we call in the military, mount military operations in urban terrain are the most dangerous. They're the most bloody, they're the most difficult, particularly when your main enemy uses civilians as shields. So it's a difficult situation. But remember, Israel, the IDF does not target civilians the way Hamas does. And this is why the ICC, you know, action just yesterday was so outrageous. The moral equivalency, what they did in terms of equating Israeli actions with Hamas actions is an outrage, as you're probably seeing here in Washington, D.C., whether it's the president, Blinken, Chuck Schumer or many Republican senators like myself, we're all calling this outrageous and, you know, dangerous and reprehensible. [17:10:17] TAPPER: So let me ask you, because you are a veteran, do you think Israel is doing the same, taking the same care that American service members take when engaged in urban warfare? And the reason I ask is because first of all, the direct terrorist attack by Hamas on 1,200 -- SULLIVAN: Yes. TAPPER: -- innocent Israelis, the continued hostage taking -- SULLIVAN: Yes. TAPPER: -- it's -- you know, these people, Israeli soldiers, they're not robots. I mean, they're human beings. SULLIVAN: Yes. TAPPER: I could certainly understand anger and rage. It's a little different than the United States fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. There's a little bit more distance from the victims of 9/11, for example. Do you think that there is the same kind of care and precision, the same kind of equation made when it comes to rules of engagement in terms of the risk when you're going after Hamas and the level of the Hamas fighter? SULLIVAN: Well, look, you're raising a really important question. I think, you know, I went to Israel right after the October 7 attacks with a bipartisan CODEL U.S. senators. Very important, because the sense of the existential threat that that country faces, our most important ally in the Middle East, is so palpable when you're there. And a lot of Americans who are criticizing Israel, I think, don't understand that. We, in a meeting with the prime minister and the defense minister, they said, imagine 9/11 happening but the terrorists weren't in Afghanistan, they were about 20 miles away, still strong and ready to attack again. TAPPER: Right. SULLIVAN: That -- TAPPER: And the government of the country next door and the military of the country next door. SULLIVAN: Exactly. So, but to your question, you know, we've had a lot of American military experts, David Petraeus, I know, is recently on your program. One of our top experts at the, I think it was the West Point center for counterterrorism. They are saying that the Israelis have done incredible job. Now it's not without civilian casualties, as the prime minister said, nobody wants civilian casualties. Any innocent civilian is a horrible tragedy. But again, this is an existential threat to Israel. And they are trying to do their best in terms of limiting casualties. But you have an urban terrain setting, you have tunnels, hundreds of miles of tunnels -- TAPPER: Yes. SULLIVAN: -- and you have an enemy that's ruthless and has no problem actually using civilians as shields. And in some ways doesn't mind seeing the civilian casualty rate going up because it plays into their strategy. TAPPER: Senator Sullivan, it's always good to see you. SULLIVAN: Great to see you, too. TAPPER: Thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it. After hours of back and forth with lawyers, jury instructions are now being sent in the very first criminal case against Donald Trump, this in the hush money cover up case. The details that could set the tone on whether Donald Trump is acquitted in this case or convicted. We're back in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:17:03] TAPPER: In our law and Justice Lead, Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial is on hold until next Tuesday. And that's when closing arguments are scheduled to take place before the jury gets the case. Lawyers for the prosecution and defense just met with Judge Juan Merchan to try to hash out what the jury instructions will be. CNN's Brynn Gingras is outside the courthouse. So, Brynn, what was discussed and what was agreed to or settled at least in this meeting? BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, it's important to remember that the former president is charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records. And the felony here is that he did this, according to prosecutors, to commit or conceal another crime. Well, through these jury instructions, we have a clearer picture of what that other crime is and what will be presented to jurors to sort of navigate their deliberations process. Essentially, they're saying he violated state election laws that forbids a person to seek an election by unlawful means. And some of this negotiating back and forth on the defenses side, they asked for several things to be put in those jury instructions, which the judge simply just did not agree to. Let me give you a few examples. For example, he wanted it jury instructions to include that the jurors need to be unanimous when it comes to what that unlawful means actually is. That's one example. Another is they wanted jurors to know that hush money isn't illegal. The judge says he's not going to be putting that in his instructions. Another one, they said they would like the jurors to be instructed about Cohen's plan, yes, that Cohen actually sent his phones to a factory reset to which the prosecution actually laughed at and said, we've never even heard of that instruction ever before. The judge also agreed and said that will not be part of those jury instructions. So there was not many wins for Emil Bove on the defenses side, but there were some, a lot of the thornier issues, I will say, the judge said he's going to reserve his judgment and decide the outcome. And he told both sides they're going to get the final drafts of these jury instructions by Thursday. So the teams have the full weekend to prepare for the closing arguments. And of course, that's when jurors will be back to get those on Tuesday. Jake. TAPPER: All right. Brynn Gingras, outside the courtroom in Manhattan, thanks so much. With us now to discuss, criminal defense trial attorney Stacy Schneider and former federal prosecutor Gene Rossi. Gene, the defense rested its case today and now the jury is on a weak break until closing arguments next Tuesday. What do you make of the judge's decision to not start deliberations right away due to the Memorial Day break? GENE ROSSI, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA: I think it's a good decision. The only risk I'm worried about here is because of the long break, you may have jurors that go off the beaten path, if you will, and hear any comments about the trial. But listen, if they had done closings Thursday, it would have taken up the whole weekend of the jurors. I think let's start on Monday or Tuesday, I guess. And I got to say this, I think this benefits the prosecution because after all the hits that Cohen has taken, that prosecution, they really have to cross their T's and dot their I's in their closing argument and rebuttal because they have a tougher road to hoe than they did at the beginning with David Pecker. [17:20:13] TAPPER: Stacy, Robert Costello, Bob Costello was the final witness for the defense. Yesterday, Costello was loudly sighing. He said, you know, ridiculous. At one point he said, geez. After Judge Merchan sustained objections from the prosecution, Judge Merchan had to admonish Costello and said, OK, so, when there's a witness on the stand, if you don't like by ruling, you don't say geez, OK? And then you don't say strike it, because I'm the only one that can strike testimony in the courtroom, do you understand that? Costello said, I understand. The judge said, OK. And then if you don't like my ruling, you don't get me side eye. You don't roll your eyes. Do you understand that? Do you understand that? Costello says, I understand that. I understand what you're saying. The judge said, OK, thank you. Let's get the jury back. Wait, are you staring me down right now? Costello, no, I'm just wondering how -- Merchan, clear the courtroom, please. Clear the courtroom. So, and then whatever happened after that, we don't know. Was Costello a good witness for the defense to end on? I mean, do moments like that stick with the jury? JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes, they stick with the jury. Robert Costello was a broken trigger, misfire of a defense witness. I think he was an unmitigated disaster. And all of the gains that the prosecution made on cross examination of Michael Cohen by getting in that phone call to Trumps bodyguard and the 14-year-old who was harassing him and leaving the impression that Michael Cohen never talked about this before, and there was no time to talk about Trump with Stormy Daniels and getting in the fact that Michael Cohen admitted to stealing money from the Trump organization, all that was sort of now diminished significantly by Robert Costello's testimony. And I want to point out exactly the point where I think they blew a hole in their case, meaning the Trump team. On the prosecution on cross examination went to Robert Costello and showed him this e-mail from May 15 of 2018, which Robert Costello was writing to his law partner, and it said while he was trying to obtain Michael Cohen as his client, so this was sort of the meetings and trying to get him to hire him. He said to his partner, we have an issue. We have to get Michael Cohen on the right page to give the appearance that we're not being instructed by Rudy Giuliani and the president. And to me to hear that coming out of the mouth of an attorney who is trying to get a new client that he is, the impression I have, is his totally influenced and going after Cohen as a client because of Donald Trump. So, what is Donald Trump worried about in sending Robert Costello in to obtain Michael Cohen and keep pressure on him? Michael Cohen was testifying throughout direct examination that I felt this pressure campaign from Bob Costello. I didn't trust him. I didn't want to say things to him because I thought it would go back to Rudy Giuliani and go to the president. Well, by Donald Trump's team calling Bob Costello as a witness and opening this door, they now introduced something that wouldn't not have been there had they just been quiet and it was a disaster. TAPPER: And Gene, let me ask you said a high point for the defense was during their cross with Michael Cohen about that October 24, 2016 phone call. Todd Blanche, Trump's attorney, says when you testified about that one minute and 36 minutes phone call, I'm sorry, one minute and 36 2nd phone call on October 24 was not with Keith Schiller that you called Keith Schiller and he passed the phone to President Trump. You finalized the deal with Stormy Daniels. You said, we're going to move forward and he said yes because you kept him informed all the time. That was your testimony, right? Cohen says that's correct. Blanche says, that was a lie. You were actually talking to Mr. Schiller about the fact that you were getting a harassing phone call from 14-year-old. Correct? Cohen said, part of it was a 14-year-old. But I know that Keith was with Mr. Trump at the time and there was more than potentially just this, that's what I recall. What do you think about that, Gene? You think that's pretty important? ROSSI: I think it's important. First off, I got a compliment Stacy, that is a brilliant remark she made about Costello. I fully agree. Let's talk about the Cohen call. It's not a home run, Jake, but it is sort of a Texas single because in the one minute, you know, 36 seconds, you can talk a lot beyond just a 14-year-old. So they did zing them a little bit, but it wasn't, you know, a left hook that was going to knock them out. But I got to say this, Michael Cohen took a lot of hits. He really did do well in certain questions. But I got to go back to what Stacy said. They washed it all away by calling Costello, because one thing you learn as a defense attorney and a prosecutor, primacy, recency. You only get one chance at a first impression and they always remember your last act and they ended on a dud that actually rehabilitated, rehabilitated Michael Cohen who said that Costello was sort of a double agent for Donald Trump. [17:25:33] TAPPER: All right. SCHNEIDER: It did. TAPPER: Gene Rossi and Stacy Schneider, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. I want to get more reaction to my interview just moments ago with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Plus, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell asked today about that controversial upside down American flag that flew outside the home of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) …