CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024. TENA KOUTOU, NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. THIS MORNING ` THE COUNTDOWN TO BUDGET 24. WE WILL BE DELIVERING TAX RELIEF IN THE BUDGET. IT WILL BE RELATIVELY MODEST, BUT IT IS LONG OVERDUE. THEN ` SHANE JONES' BIG PLANS TO SHORE UP OUR FUEL SECURITY. ON SOME DAYS, THERE'S LESS THAN SIX OR SEVEN DAYS' WORTH OF FUEL IN SOME PARTS OF THE SOUTH ISLAND. BUT WE BEGIN THIS MORNING WITH EDUCATION. AHEAD OF THURSDAY'S BUDGET, THE GOVERNMENT HAS ANNOUNCED $53M IN FUNDING OVER FOUR YEARS TO HELP WITH TEACHER TRAINING AND RECRUITMENT. EDUCATION MINISTER ERICA STANFORD IS WITH US. KIA ORA. GOOD MORNING. BEFORE WE START, CONGRATULATIONS. POLITICAL JOURNALIST OF THE YEAR. WELL DONE. GRIM TIMES. THERE IS SO MUCH TO DISCUSS. WE'RE GOING TO PUT ECE TO ONE SIDE FOR THIS MORNING. YOU ARE DOING A LOT OF WORK THERE. WILL FOCUS ON PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS. TOOK US THROUGH THIS NEW FUNDING. WHERE WILL THE MONEY GO? WE ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT RAISING ACHIEVEMENT IN CLOSING THE EQUITY GAP. WE HAVE TO INVEST IN THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, AND THAT IS TEACHERS. THEY ARE THE MOST SINGLE IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. WE KNOW WE HAVE AN UNDERSUPPLY OF TEACHERS, ESPECIALLY IN CERTAIN SUBJECT AT SECONDARY SCHOOL IN AREAS IN PRIMARY SCHOOL. WE ALSO KNOW FROM ALL THE RECENT REPORTS, OUR TEACHERS DON'T FEEL PREPARED. PRINCIPLES ARE SAYING OUR TEACHERS UNPREPARED. NEW TEACHERS SAY THEY DON'T FEEL PREPARED TO TEACH. 50% OF TEACHERS SAY THEY DON'T FEEL PREPARED TO TEACH, 60% OF PRINCIPALS. WE HAVE AN UNDERSUPPLY, IN THE TEACHERS WE ARE SUPPLYING DON'T FEEL COMPETENT TO TEACH. THE PACKAGE WE HAVE ANNOUNCED TODAY EXCLUSIVELY ON YOUR SHOW, $53 MILLION. THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THAT IS THE 1500 NEW TEACHERS OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS. THE IMPORTANT PART OF THAT IS THE 1200 LEARN ON THE JOB POSITIONS THAT WE ARE PUTTING IN PLACE. THEY ARE WORTH ABOUT $20,000 EACH. WE ARE SAYING TO NEW GRADUATES WHO HAVE COME OUT OF A SCIENCE DEGREE OR MATHS DEGREE, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCOUNTANTS OR HAVE SCIENCE DEGREES AND WANT TO CHANGE CAREER, DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL. CHANGE THE LIVES OF YOUNG PEOPLE. WE WILL PAY YOU ON THE JOB A STATEMENT. WHO WILL CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR FEES. WE PAY THE SCHOOL TO TRAIN NEW. WE ARE LOOKING AT RAISING THE NUMBERS, BUT ALSO THE CONFIDENCE WHEN THEY ARE NEW TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM. TOOK US THROUGH THE SCHOOL ON-SITE TRAINING PROGRAM, JUST TO EXPLAIN TO OUR VIEWERS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING. AT THE MOMENT 600 PLACES ARE FUNDED; THAT WILL INCREASE TO 1200 PLACES. NO PLACES ARE FUNDED AT THE MOMENT. YOU WILL BE INCREASING FROM 600. THIS FUNDING WILL ALLOW FOR 1200. THAT FUNDING COMPLETELY FINISHES FROM JUNE, BECAUSE IT WAS A FUNDING CLIFF. THAT WAS A SMALL SCALE TRIAL. WE HAVE LOOKED AT THE RESULTS, THE FACT THAT TEACHERS TRAINING ON THE JOB IN SCHOOLS SPENDING MOST OF THEIR TIME IN THE CLASSROOM, THEN GOING ONE DAY A WEEK OR HOLIDAYS TO DO COURSES. AT THE MOMENT IT IS RUN THROUGH WAIKATO AND AUCKLAND, PREDOMINANTLY THROUGH UNIVERSITIES. IT WAS TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS WHO SET THOSE COURSES UP, BECAUSE THEY REALISE WHAT WAS HAPPENING WAS THE QUALITY OF THE TEACHERS THEY WERE GETTING WASN'T WHAT THEY NEEDED. THEY WENT TO THE UNIVERSITIES AND SOLVE THE PROBLEM THEMSELVES. THEY SAID THEY WANT TO TRAIN OUR OWN TEACHERS ON THE JOB. LET US HAPPEN FOR FIVE DAYS A WEEK. YOU TAKE THE FOUR BLOCK COURSES. WE TRAIN THEM WITH EXPERT TEACHERS ON THE JOB. THOUGH 600 ADDITIONAL PLACES, ARE THOSE PEOPLE WHO WOULDN'T OTHERWISE BE TEACHING OR PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE TRAINING BUT WOULDN'T HAVE THE DEGREE ALONGSIDE EXPERIENCE? THEY ARE 1200 ADDITIONAL PLACES. DEPENDING ON HOW YOU CONSIDER THAT FUNDING. WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE SMALL SCALES TRIALS AS THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT CONCEDED TO BE TEACHERS. THEY ARE MIDCAREER CHANGE. THERE IS ONE AT WESTLAKE THAT I WAS SPEAKING TO RECENTLY; IT IS NOT SOMETHING HE WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT HE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, SOMETHING MEANINGFUL. HE LIKED THE FACT THAT HE WAS BEING PAID STIPEND ON THE JOB TO BE ABLE TO RETRAIN. HE IS MIDCAREER CHANGE GUY BACK TO SCHOOL. WE KNOW FROM THE EVIDENCE THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING IN MIDCAREER ARE MUCH BETTER AT DEALING WITH BEHAVIOUR, PARENTS. THEY ARE BETTER AT DEALING WITH THE MATERIAL. THEY ARE IN CLASS DEALING WITH EXPERT TEACHERS. IT IS A GREAT NEW PART OF THE TEACHER TRAINING SYSTEM THAT WE WILL TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT, BECAUSE I AM NOT RULING OUT INCREASING THOSE NUMBERS IN FUTURE. THEY HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM? WE HAVE NEW MONEY IN THE BUDGET FOR EDUCATION AND WE HAVE DONE OUR REPRIORITISATION EXERCISE. I WENT THROUGH WHAT WE SPEND MONEY ON AN EDUCATION AND SHIFT FROM THE BACKEND TO MEET FRONT END NEED. I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS IN OPPOSITION FOR A REALLY LONG TIME. WE SPEND A LOT OF MONEY AND EDUCATION, $19 BILLION. OUR RESULTS ARE GOING BACKWARDS. THERE IS MONEY WE'RE SPENDING THAT DOESN'T GET THE OUTCOMES WE NEED. ARE NOT AFRAID TO SAY WE WILL STOP DOING THESE THINGS, AND HERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS WORKING WELL BUT WE CAN AND EXPAND BACK AND TO FRONT. A SURVEY EARLIER THIS YEAR FOUND 56% OF SCHOOLS HAD TEACHERS WORKING IN AREAS THAT ARE NOT QUALIFIED IN. CURRENT ESTIMATES, SECONDARY SCHOOLS WILL BE REQUIRED TO MEET THE DEFICIT IN THREE YEARS TIME. AS A PARTY THAT TALKS ABOUT THE VALUE OF TARGETS, WILL THERE BE A TEACHER SHORTAGE AT THE END OF THIS PARLIAMENTARY TO? THE AIM IS TO NOT HAVE ONE. I HAVE TAKEN A NUMBER OF STEPS. HAVE YOU GOT A SPECIFIC TARGET? THE GREEN LIST, THE FIRST THING I DID WHEN I WAS THE IMMIGRATION MINISTER WAS PUT SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS ON THE GREEN LIST. 670 SHORT. YOU HAVE TAKEN ACTION. AS THERE ARE SPECIFIC TARGET? WE ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE THE BEST JOURNALIST IN THE COUNTRY. SECONDARY SCHOOL TEACHERS HAVE BEEN MOVED. THAT IS A REALLY ATTRACTIVE OPTION. NOW WE ARE SAYING 1500 NEW TEACHERS IN THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, SO I WOULD EXPECT BY THE NEXT THREE YEARS, WE WILL BE LOOKING AT A TEACHER SUPPLY NUMBER THAT IS MUCH LOWER THAN 670. WHEN WE LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IT IS HARD BECAUSE THE MINISTRY WON'T GIVE ME EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN, BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TEACHERS FROM OVERSEAS ARE GOING TO COME INTO THE COUNTRY. WE CAN KIND OF GUESS. I EXPECTATION, GIVEN THIS 1500, AND THE FACT THAT IT GOES WELL OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, I WILL INCREASE IT. WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH IMMIGRATION. MY EXPECTATION IS WE WILL NOT HAVE WHAT WE ARE SEEING AT THE MOMENT. I HAVE TO JUMP IN. YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC TARGET? MY TARGET IS TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ENOUGH TEACHERS TEACHING SECONDARY SCHOOLS. AT THE END OF THIS PARLIAMENTARY TERM, IT IS YOUR GOVERNMENT'S TARGET, THERE IS NO TEACHER SHORTAGE? THAT IS MY PLAN. IS THAT YOUR TARGET? YOU HAVE BODY MENTIONED THERE ARE TEACHERS TEACHING OUTSIDE OF THE SPECIALTY. I AM WORRIED ABOUT THAT. CAN THE MINISTRY TELL ME HOW MANY MATHS TEACHERS SHORT ARE WE? HOW MANY SCIENCE TEACHERS? HOW MANY TEACHERS TEACHING BIOLOGY AT TEACHING PHYSICS OR ANGUISH? WE DON'T KNOW. A BIG PART OF WHAT I HAVE SAID IN MY SIX PRIORITIES AS WE NEED BETTER DATA, SO WE CAN TARGET THE TEACHERS WE NEED. SOME OF THE IMMEDIATE CONCERNS FACING THE PROFESSION AND STAFFING SHORTAGES. THERE HAVE BEEN THREE INCIDENTS SO FAR IN WHICH INDIVIDUAL SCHOOLS HAVE TOLD KIDS TO STAY HOME OR CLOSE BECAUSE TEACHERS ARE SICK. THE ILLNESS BIKE THAT WOULD NORMALLY EXPECT TO SEE IN THE DEPTHS OF WINTER IS HERE NOW. THE COVID MODEL IS SAY WE HAVE ANOTHER SURGE AROUND THE CORNER. WHAT PLANS HAVE YOU GOT SCHOOLS TO GET READY FOR WINTER? I HAVE SPOKEN TO PRINCIPALS WHO HAVE CONTACTED ME SAYING WE ARE IN A TOUGH SPOT. THEY ARE STRUGGLING. IT IS TOUGH FOR THEM. I CAN'T SAY TO YOU YOU I HAVE A MAGIC WAND TO MAGIC UP TEACHERS TO FIX THE PROBLEM. FROM THE MOVES THAT WE HAVE MADE TO INCREASE TEACHER SUPPLY IT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT. THE OTHER AREAS THAT I'M LOOKING AT CURRENTLY, THERE ARE TEACHERS OUT THERE WHO ARE REGISTERED IN THE PAST BUT AREN'T CURRENTLY REGISTERED AND LET THE REGISTRATION LAPSE. WE ARE LOOKING AT OPTIONS AROUND HOW DO WE ENCOURAGE THE BAKKEN. THE TEACHER REFRESHER COURSE IS EXPENSIVE, AND TIME-CONSUMING AND PUTTING TEACHERS OFF THAT COULD BE BACK IN THE POOL. WE ARE LOOKING AT THAT AT THE MOMENT. WE HAVE PAPERS TO LOOK AT WHEN I GET BACK AFTER THE SHOW TO SEE HOW WE CAN SHIFT SOME OF THOSE TEACHERS BACK INTO TEACHING. BY FUNDING THE COURSE? THERE IS LOTS OF OPTIONS. WHEN MIGHT YOU MAKE A DECISION ON THAT? 2022 MINISTRY OF HEALTH DATA FOUND TEACHERS HAVE THE HIGHEST CASE OF COVID 19 OF ANY JOB. THEY ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO LONG COVID. BEING CLOSE TO KIDS. THE MINISTRY HAVE PUT OUR GUIDELINES ABOUT MAKING SURE THERE IS A AIRFLOW, MITIGATING AS MUCH AS WE CAN. WHEN YOU ARE SITTING IN A CLASSROOM OF CHILDREN, IT IS LIKELY TO HAPPEN. I CAN'T ANSWER THE LONG COVID QUESTION. I AM NOT A HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, PRE-OUR GOVERNMENT, IS INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF SICK LEAVE OR TEACHERS. WE HAVE HAD FUNDING FOR MORE RELIEVERS. AT THE MOMENT, WE ARE SAYING IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUR RELIEVER BUDGET, WE WILL HELP YOU. . YOUR GOALS ARE CLEAR AS THERE ARE RISKS THAT ARE IN TRYING TO AVOID, DISRUPTION GET KIDS BACK INTO SCHOOLS, WHICH IS A NOBLE GOAL, YOU WILL CREATE MORE DISRUPTION BY HAVING MORE ILLNESS? YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NEW GUIDELINES? YOU HAVE SET TARGETS AROUND SCHOOL ATTENDANCE. I HAVE DESCRIBED TO YOU THE PRESSURES THAT ARE BEING CAUSED BY ILLNESS IN SCHOOLS ALREADY. IS THERE A TENSION, A RISK THAT IN PRIORITIES SCHOOL ATTENDANCE, YOU WILL HAVE MORE TEACHERS SICK? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY I SHOULD DO? I AM NOT GOING TO ASK INDIVIDUALS TO STAY AWAY MORE OFTEN. EVERY DAY THEY STAY AT SCHOOL IS VITAL TO GETTING NCEA. WE HAVE TO GET ATTENDANCE BACK INTO FAMILIES HOMES BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT. WE WANT ALL OF OUR CHILDREN TO BE AT SCHOOL REGULARLY. THAT MAY HAVE AN IMPACT POTENTIALLY ON ELLIS. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE MORE RELIEVERS. WE ARE LOOKING AT HAVING A BETTER TEACHER SUPPLY. THE OPTION TO SAVE STAY HOME FROM SCHOOL MORE OFTEN IS NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS GOVERNMENT. YOUR EFFORTS TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF TEACHERS AND PEOPLE COMING INTO THE PROFESSION AS A GOAL, GIVEN THE PRESSURES FACING TEACHERS, IS IT LIKELY WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE SCHOOLS HAVE TO CLOSE DOWN DURING THE WINTER PERIOD TEMPORARILY BECAUSE OF ILLNESS? THEY ARE HAVING TO DO SOME OF THOSE THINGS. SCHOOLS DO AN INCREDIBLE JOB MANAGING SOME OF THESE PRESSURES WHILE WE'RE SORTING TEACHER SUPPLY. THEY GET CLASSES TOGETHER, ROSTER DIFFERENT YEAR GROUPS. THEY DO AN INCREDIBLE JOB. I CAN'T MAGIC UP TEACHERS. IT IS A TOUGH TIME, AND WOULD DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SUPPORT THEM. ESTABLISHING A KNOWLEDGE RIDGE CURRICULUM. THE CURRICULUM OF THE DAY, IT IS LOOSE, AND VAGUE, BASED ON COMPETENCIES. IT IS PROBLEMS SOWING, CRITICAL THINKING. IT DIDN'T DEFINE THEM WELL. IT DIDN'T HAVE A PROGRESSION OF HOW YOU GO THROUGH THE SCHOOL. IT STRIPPED KNOWLEDGE OUT OF THE CURRICULUM. WHAT THAT MEANT WAS IT DEVOLVED DOWN TO INDIVIDUAL SCHOOLS AS TO WHAT THEY TAUGHT. IT IS PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONSISTENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY. SOME SCHOOLS HAVE THE ABILITY TO CREATE GREAT KNOWLEDGE RIDGE CURRICULUM AND OTHERS DON'T BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE SKILL AVAILABLE. WRITING A CURRICULUM IS A SKILL. YOU HAVE TO HAVE EXPERTS DOING THAT. WE HAVE A DEVOLVED SITUATION WHICH HAS BEEN PROBLEMATIC. THAT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU GO TO SCHOOL AS TO WHAT YOU LEARN. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE BRING KNOWLEDGE BACK TO THE CURRICULUM WITH SKILLS AND COMPETENCIES. WE ARE REFRESHING COMPETENCIES, WHAT THEY ARE AND HOW THEY ARE TO BE PROGRESSED WITH KNOWLEDGE. IT IS AN INTERESTING PHILOSOPHICAL DISTENSION. IF YOU BELIEVE THE HYPE, WE ARE ON THE CUSP OF A AI FUTURE WHERE INFORMATION IS DEMOCRATISED. THE SOFTER SKILLS, RELATIONSHIP BUILDING, HUMAN SKILLS THAT MACHINES AND COMPUTERS CAN'T DO ARE GOING TO BE VITAL. HOW WILL FOCUSING ON KNOWLEDGE AS OPPOSED TO COMPETENCIES OR SKILLS PREPARE KIDS FOR WHAT IS GOING TO BE A TOTALLY WORLD? IT IS NOT OPPOSED TO. IT IS ABOUT ACCOMMODATION OF THE THREE. THAT IMPLIES THERE WAS ZERO KNOWLEDGE PREVIOUSLY. IT WAS HIGHLY DEVOLVED. IT WAS DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL CHOICE OF SCHOOLS, WHICH PUT A LOT ON A TEACHER TO CREATE A CURRICULUM. WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT TEACHERS HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THE THING THEY DO BEST, WHICH IS BRING THE MAGIC OF MAKING SURE THAT THE KNOWLEDGE IS BRING BROUGHT TO LIFE. IT IS BALANCING KNOWLEDGE WITH SKILL AND COMPETENCY, UNDER BOTH CURRICULUM FOCUS. KNOWLEDGE BASE WAS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST. IT IS BACK IN. THE CURRICULUM DID NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE BEFORE. IT WAS DEVOLVED. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE CONSISTENCY ACROSS THE COUNTRY. IF YOU GO TO SCHOOL IN AUCKLAND OR INVERCARGILL OR NORTHLAND, YOU WILL LEARN THE SAME THINGS IN MATHEMATICS AND ENGLISH. YOU LEARN AND MASTER SMALL PARTS AND MOVE ON. IT IS SEQUENCED. IT IS IMPORTANT IN MATHS. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT, IT KIDS GET IN TROUBLE. IT IS YEAR BY YEAR TO GET THE RESULTS. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE BEEN SLIDING DOWN. IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT MORE DEVOLUTION LED TO INEQUITIES, HOW WILL EVEN MORE DEVOLUTION IN THE FORM OF CHARTER SCHOOLS IMPROVE IT? THE THING ABOUT CHARTER SCHOOLS IS THAT THEY ARE PROVIDING CHOICE. THAT'S WHAT DEVOLUTION HAS PROVIDED SO FAR. NOT REALLY. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EXAMPLE OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, OUR SYSTEM AND RESULTS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE AND WORSE. BECAUSE OF DEVOLUTION? NO. YOU SAID THE DEVOLVED SYSTEM HAS LED TO THAT. CHARTER SCHOOLS WILL BRING CHOICE BACK. WE WANT CHARTER SCHOOLS TO INNOVATE. THE KEY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO IS THE FACT THAT THEY WILL BE HELD TO ACCOUNT BY A CONTRACT THAT SAYS HERE OF THE THINGS THAT WE EXPECT. IF WE DON'T ACHIEVE THOSE THINGS IN TIME, WE WILL GET SOMEONE TO COME AND TAKE YOU OVER ALL WE WILL TAKE YOU BACK TO THE STATE SYSTEM. THE CURRICULUM CREATED WITHOUT EXPERTS, THERE ARE SCHOOLS THAT FAIL. THEY FAIL FOR DECADES. IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE A FAMILY THAT LIVES BY THE SCHOOL, THAT IS YOUR LUCK IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL. WHICH IS NOT FAIR. CHARTER SCHOOLS, WE ARE PUTTING EXCELLENCE AND EQUITY BACK AT THE HEART OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM. YOU WILL BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. IF YOU WANTED TO CREATE YOUR OWN CURRICULUM, YOU HAVE TO GET RESULTS. IN THE STATE SYSTEM, WITH YOUR DEVOLVED CURRICULUM, YOU CONTINUE TO FAIL FOR DECADES. THE FAMILY LIVING NEXT TO IT. OUR READING, WRITING AND MATHS HOUR A DAY, CHARTER SCHOOLS? NONE OF THEM DO. STRUCTURED LITERACY? WE EXPECT THEM TO INNOVATE. THEY WILL LOOK AT ALL THE SAME RESEARCH AND EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO GET RESULTS. IF THEY DON'T MEET THOSE STANDARDS, THEY WILL LOSE THE CONTRACT? THEY MIGHT GO FURTHER. A NUMBER OF CHARTER SCHOOLS BANNED SMART WATCHES AND OTHER DEVICES, BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING AT RESEARCH ABOUT TO RESULTS. STRUCTURED LITERACY IS AMAZING. WE WANT TO BRING IN STRUCTURED MATHEMATICS. WE WANT TO DO THE SAME WITH SCIENCE AND GET AHEAD OF THE STATE SYSTEM. THEY HAVE TO GET RESULTS. IF THEY DON'T, THERE ARE CONSEQUENCE. THE CABINET PAPER ON CHARTER SCHOOLS PROMISES BETTER OUTCOMES FOR MAORI. WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT THEY WILL ACHIEVE THAT? WHEN I TAKE A LOOK AT MY ELECTORATE, THEY ARE TAKING KIDS THAT FAIL IN THE MAINSTREAM. I TALK TO THOSE KIDS EVERY YEAR. I SIT DOWN WITH THE NEW RECRUITS. YOU HEAR THESE HEARTBREAKING TALES OF THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NEVER SUCCEEDING IN MAINSTREAM. THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO SUCCEED. MANY OF THEM SAY THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE DONE. THEY GET TO A SCHOOL LIKE THIS, WHICH HAS THE FLEXIBILITY TO INNOVATE, DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, AND THESE KIDS ARE NOW 100% GETTING NCEA. THIS IS ANECDOTAL. IS THEY ARE HIGH-LEVEL EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS BETTER LEARNING FOR MAORI. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TALK TO DAVID SEYMOUR ABOUT THE DETAIL. THE REGULATORY IMPACT STATEMENT SAY IT IS UNCLEAR IF THE MODEL HAD AN IMPACT ON THESE GROUPS. YOUR CABINET PAPER SAID IT PROMISED IMPROVED LEARNING OUTCOMES. IT WAS DAVID SEYMOUR'S PAPER. YOU ARE THE EDUCATION MINISTER; THE CABINET PAPER IS PROMISING ONE THING. WE ARE DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY THIS TIME. DAVID SEYMOUR IS TAKING A LOOK AT WHAT WE DID BEFORE. THIS IS A SMALL-SCALE TRIAL. WE ARE NOT GOING TO SET AND FORGET; WE'RE GOING TO LEARN AS WE GO. IT IS NOT THAT SMALL. IT IS 15 NEW SCHOOLS. WE ARE LEARNING FROM WHAT HAPPENED OR. DAVID IS DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CONTRACTING. WHEN WE ARE SAYING THE WHOLE POINT OF THESE NEW SCHOOLS IS THE SET UP TO OFFER THOSE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE BUT THEIR LOCAL FAILING SCHOOL SOMETHING DIFFERENT. THE CONTRACTING IS THE IMPORTANT PART. YOU HAVE TO MEET CERTAIN OUTCOMES IF YOU WANT THIS FUNDING AND TO BE A CHARTER SCHOOL. THE ALTERNATIVE IS WE ARE SENDING OUR MAORI TWO SCHOOLS THAT FAIL THEM. WE WANT TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. WE HAVE SEEN THE EXAMPLES OF WHERE IT HAS WORKED INCREDIBLY WELL. WE WANT TO TAKE THE EXAMPLE OF VANGUARD ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY. WE'RE BACK WITH ERICA STANFORD AFTER THE BREAK. AND THEN ` AFTER A BLEAK MONETARY POLICY STATEMENT FROM THE RESERVE BANK, THE NEW GOVERNMENT PREPARES TO DELIVER ITS FIRST BUDGET. HOKI MAI. WELCOME BACK TO Q+A AND EDUCATION MINISTER ERICA STANFORD. YOU'RE MANDATING STRUCTURED LITERACY. REPORT FOUND THE UPDATED READING RECOVERY IS MAKING DOUBLE THE PROGRESS OF THE PREVIOUS MODEL, SO WHY IS NOW A GOOD TIME TO SCRAP IT? WE ARE A GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO RAISE ACHIEVEMENT AND CLUMSY EQUITY GAP. THIS IS A MASSIVE PART OF THAT, BECAUSE GREAT LITERACY UNLOCKS ALL OTHER AREAS OF THE CURRICULUM. THIS IS GOING TO BE A GAME CHANGER. READING RECOVERY, ALL THE INTERNATIONAL RESULTS ARE SHOWN OVER TIME, IT DOES NOT GET THE RESULTS THAT WE NEED. THREE OF NOMAD FOR ALONG TIME. ARE READING RECOVERY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IGNORING RESEARCH. ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ARE THE HABITS OF POOR READERS. I DO NOT WANT TO STICK WITH A PROGRAM THAT AT ITS CORE PHILOSOPHY, BELIEVES IN TEACHING THE HABITS OF POOR READERS. DO KNOW WHY THEY HAVE HAD THESE GREAT RESULTS? BECAUSE THEY HAVE INTRODUCED STRUCTURED LITERACY. WE NOW KNOW THAT WHEN YOU DO STRUCTURED LITERACY, YOUR RESULTS IMPROVE. WE WANT TO SAY READ AND RECOVERY, I AM SORRY, YOUR RESULTS ARE BETTER THAN WHAT WE USED TO DO, BUT HOW ABOUT YOUR RESULTS COMPARED TO PURE STRUCTURED LITERACY. IF THEY WERE DOING PURE STRUCTURED LITERACY, THEY WOULD BE MUCH BETTER. WE ARE SAYING THANK YOU VERY MUCH READING RECOVERY, BUT YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO STATE THAT THE CORE OF YOUR PHILOSOPHY IS WRONG. WE ARE GOING TO BE TAKING THAT FUNDING, WHICH IS VERY EXTENSIVE, AND WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR DECADES, AND I KNOW THE MINISTRY HAD REALLY WANTED TO SHIFT TO STRUCTURED LITERACY FOR A LONG TIME. WE WILL BE REPLACING THE TIER 2 AND THREE INTERVENTION, THE ONE-ON-ONE OR SMALL GROUP INTERVENTIONS WITH A STRUCTURED LITERACY APPROACH SO THAT CLASSROOM TEACHING IS CONSISTENT ACROSS. SO YOU ARE NOT LEARNING IN CLASS TO SOUND OUT WORDS, AND THEN GOING TO READING RECOVERY. SO TIER 2 AND THREE INTERVENTION POCKETS ARE STRUGGLING, THAT WILL, THROUGH DIFFERENT PROGRAMS PROVIDING A STRUCTURED LITERACY APPROACH? YES. WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF FUNDING? IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE. WE HAVE SEEN THE SCHOOLS WHO ARE DOING THIS FOR A FEW YEARS, THE NUMBER OF REMEDIAL READERS HAS DROPPED BY TWO THIRDS, SO THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING. YOU NEED TO GET IN REALLY EARLY, BUT THERE ARE STRUGGLING READERS AT THE MOMENT WHO HAVEN'T BEEN DOING STRUCTURED LITERACY RIGHT UP TO YEAR SIX, SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE NOT LEAVING ANY OF THOSE KIDS BEHIND. WE MIGHT HAVE TO RE-PRIORITISE A BETTER FUNDING FROM OTHER AREAS TO MAKE SURE WE ARE GETTING THAT INTERVENTION TO EVERY CHILD THAT NEEDS IT. EVEN ANNOUNCED AN INDEPENDENT ENQUIRY INTO SCHOOL PROPERTIES AROUND THE COUNTRY. YOUR OLD BOSS IS LEADING THE ENQUIRY. HEARS. HE IS* WHY WOULD YOU HIRE YOUR OLD BOSS? BECAUSE HE IS EXCELLENT. AND WORKING IN NORTHLAND ON MAJOR PROJECTS THAT HAVE BEEN DELIVERED ON TIME AND ON BUDGET. I CAN THINK OF A BETTER PERSON TO LEAD THE ENQUIRY. DOES IT DAMAGE THE PERCEPTIONS OF INDEPENDENCE? NO, I DON'T THINK SO. CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW ANYONE WOULD LOOK AT THIS AND SAY`� INDIVIDUAL. IT IS ABOUT A NATIONAL PARTY IN GOVERNMENT CHOOSING FORMER NATIONAL PARTY MINISTERS. MENACE THE SELLER MIGHT ALLOW THAT IF THOSE PEOPLE WEREN'T SO AMAZING EXCELLENT. A FEW WEEKS INTO THE JOB, I HAVE THE MINISTRY SAY THAT THEY WERE VERY SORRY, THERE IS A WHOLE PIPELINE OF PROJECTS THAT THEY CAN'T DELIVER ON. ONLY THE BEST BRAINS IN THIS. THEIR REPORTS WILL BE OUT EARLY, AND THEY ARE COMING IN UNDER BUDGET. GIVEN YOUR COMMITMENT TO A KNOWLEDGE-BASED ORIGIN, SHOULD TRANSGENDER ISSUES BEEN TAUGHT IN OUR SCHOOLS? WHAT WE ARE COMMITTED TO IS TO REPLACE AND REMOVE THE RSC GUIDELINES, THE REASON WE ARE DOING THAT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD HUGE FEEDBACK, NOT ONLY FROM PARENTS, BUT A LOT OF PRINCIPALS WHO HAVE ACTUALLY SIDLED UP TO ME AND SAID THAT WE NEED TO GET RID OF IT. THE REASONS FOR THAT, BECAUSE OF THE AGE APPROPRIATENESS OF SOME OF THE MATERIAL, AND THE FACT THAT IN THE GUIDELINES, IT SAYS THINGS LIKE HERE IS A WAY YOU CAN SPREAD THIS RIGHT THROUGHOUT THE CURRICULUM, WHICH MEANS THAT PARENTS DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAY, ACTUALLY, I THINK THIS IS A RESPONSE TO FOR MY FAMILY TO TEACH, AND I'M GOING TO PULL MY CHILD OUT OF THE LESSON. IN PRINCIPLE, GIVEN YOUR COMMITMENT TO KNOWLEDGE-BASED WRITTEN, IN PRINCIPLE, DO YOU THINK TRANSGENDER ISSUES SHOULD BE TAUGHT IN OUR SCHOOLS? IT IS NOT UP TO ME TO DECIDE WHAT GOES IN THE CURRICULUM IS. WE WILL GET EXPERTS DECIDE WHAT IS IN AND WHAT AGE IS APPROPRIATE TO TEACH THEM. THE PROBLEM IS THE AGE APPROPRIATENESS. THE HEALTH CURRICULUM IS MANDATED. THE PROBLEM THAT I DIDN'T GET TO BEFORE, IS THAT THIS RSC GUIDELINE, MANY PEOPLE WANT UNDERSTAND, IT IS NOT A CURRICULUM. IT IS A GUIDELINE FOR BOARDS. AND IT IS OPTIONAL. AND IT IS OPTIONAL FOR PARENTS. IT IS VERY CONFUSING. THERE ARE TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS OUT THERE WHO ARE IMPLEMENTING IT LIKE A CURRICULUM, HENCE WHY WE HAVE THESE PROBLEMS. THE ANSWERS TO SAY, GET RID OF IT, TAKE A LOOK AND BE HEALTH AND PE CURRICULUM, WHICH IS COMPULSORY, AND RELATIONSHIP AND SEXUALITY ARE SO IMPORTANT TO BE IN THE CURRICULUM. WE HAVE TO GET IT RIGHT. WE ARE LISTENING TO PARENTS AND WE WILL TAKE ANOTHER LOOK. THE ROYAL COMMISSION TO THE ABUSE IN STATE CARE IS DUE TO DELIVER ITS FINAL REPORT. LAST YEAR THE GOVERNMENT GOT ADVICE ON REDRESS DESIGNED BY SURVIVORS, WHAT DOES THAT REDRESS ENTAIL? I CAN'T TALK IN DETAIL ABOUT THAT. HAVE YOU READ IT? YES. IT TOOK ME A WEEKEND TO READ IT. THAT IS MY RESPONSE ABILITY OF THE MINISTER IN CHARGE. IT IS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF HARD WORK THAT THAT TEAM HAS DONE, AND THEY HAVE LOCKED` IT HAS BEEN A VERY IMPRESSIVE. THEY LOOKED AT OTHER JURISDICTIONS AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, AND THEY HAVE ALSO TAKEN OUR CONTACTS AND WHAT WERE FOR NEW ZEALAND. THEY'VE BEEN REALLY INNOVATIVE. IT'S BEEN A REALLY DIFFICULT TIME FOR THEM, THAT THEY HAVE GIVEN ME A WHOLE LOT OF OPTIONS TO CONSIDER, AND WHAT WE DO NOW IS WE TAKE THAT REPORT, AND THERE WILL BE A SERIES OF CABINET PAPERS WHERE WE TALK TO OUR COLLEAGUES AND GO, HERE ARE THE RECOMMENDATIONS, THAT WE NEED TO CONSIDER. DOESN'T INCLUDE FINANCIAL REDRESS? OF COURSE. WILL THE GOVERNMENT SUPPORT THAT? WE HAVEN'T CONSIDERED YET. THIS HAS TO GO THROUGH QUITE A LONG CABINET PROCESS. THE FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS ARE DUE OUT SHORTLY. CAN WE EXPECT THE GOVERNMENT TO MAKE THAT FORMAL APOLOGY THIS YEAR? IN TERMS OF THE TIMELINE, WITH REASONABLE? I CAN'T GET AHEAD OF CABINET. WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US AS SOON AFTER THE REPORT IS RELEASED THAT RETAKE ACTION, IN TERMS OF AN APOLOGY, SO WHAT WE DON'T` WE HAVE EARLY HAD THE REPORT DELAYED SO MANY TIMES. IT HAS BEEN DELAYED AGAIN. IF YOU ARE SURVIVOR, THAT IS ANOTHER PLACE TO BE. , FOR EXAMPLE IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. MAKE SURE WE GET ONTO THIS AS QUICKLY AS WE CAN. ONCE THE REPORTERS OUT, IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER OR FACEBOOK. COMING UP ` D-DAY FOR ALL THE FISCAL WONKS, WITH THE COUNTDOWN TO WHAT MIGHT BE THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL BUDGET IN YEARS. NZ IS IN A RECESSION, GDP PER CAPITA IS TRENDING DOWN, AND NON-TRADABLE INFLATION, DOMESTIC INFLATION, IS STUBBORNLY HIGH. THE RESERVE BANK TOOK A HAWKISH OUTLOOK IN ITS MONETARY POLICY STATEMENT THIS WEEK, AND NOW ALL EYES ARE ON FINANCE MINISTER NICOLA WILLIS, AS SHE PREPARES TO DELIVER THURSDAY'S BUDGET. 1 NEWS POLITICAL EDITOR MAIKI SHERMAN IS COUNTING DOWN THE HOURS TO THE BUDGET LOCKUP. KIA ORA. TALK TO IS ABOUT THE BALANCE THE FINANCE MINISTER IS TRYING TO STRIKE. GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. THIS IS A BIG MOMENT FOR NICOLA WILLIS. IT IS HER FIRST BUDGET AS A FINANCE MINISTER. ALL EYES ARE ON HER. THE MAIN GOAL FOR HER IS TO SHOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN BE FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE, AND SHE DOES HAVE A NUMBER OF THINGS TO BALANCE IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THAT. SHE NEEDS TO SHOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS BEING RESPONSIBLE WHEN IT COMES TO SPENDING AND BEING DISCIPLINED WITH ITS FINANCES. IT ALSO NEEDS TO ENSURE THAT IT IS NOT BEING SEEN TO BE CUT ACROSS TO MUCH OF THE CORE PUBLIC SERVICES THAT KIWIS WILL DEMAND AND EXPECT. THE OTHER BALANCING OUT IS THE TAX CUTS. THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL KEEN ON SPRAYING A WHOLE BUNCH OF CASH TO THE PUB, BUT ON THE LAND, IT NEEDS TO ENSURE IT DOESN'T ADD FUEL TO THE DUMPSTER FIRE THAT IS INFLATION. SHE HAS GOT PLENTY TO BALANCE UP, AND MANY ECONOMISTS, MANY CRITICS WILL BE WATCHING HOW SHE HAS PULLED THAT BUDGET TOGETHER, AND IT WILL BE CRITICAL OF HOW SHE SELLS IT. WHAT ABOUT THE POLITICS OF ALL OF THIS? HOW DOES HAVING A THREE PARTY COALITION, CATO JOB? I THINK IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT SHE HAS MORE MOUTHS TO FEED. NOT JUST NATIONAL BUT ACT AND NEW ZEALAND FIRST. SHE HAS A LOT MORE POLICY PROMISES TO FUND, AS THE FINANCE MINISTER, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT SHE DOESN'T NEED TO FUND EVERY COALITION PROMISE AT THIS BUDGET. THERE ARE ANOTHER TWO BUDGETS BEFORE THE TURN OF GOVERNMENT ENDS, AND ALSO NEW ZEALAND FIRST AND ACT, THEY ALL CAMPAIGNED ON GOVERNMENT SPENDING DOWN AND DEBT DOWN, SO THEY ESSENTIALLY AS A COALITION ON THE SAME PAGE. NEW ZEALAND FIRST HAS ALREADY GONE THAT $1.2 BILLION M REJOINDER STRUCTURE FUND. . WE SAW DAVID SEYMOUR GET MONEY FOR HIS CHARTER SCHOOLS FUND. YOU MENTIONED THE TAX CUTS. THEY WERE POINT OF CONTENTION DURING THE. ELECTION CAMPAIGN. IT ONE LOOKING AT THE SAME AS WAS PROMISED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL. CAMPAIG IT ONE LOOKING AT THE SAME AS WAS PROMISED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRL, NICOLA WILLIS SIGNALLED THAT IT COULD BE A LITTLE BIT MORE MODEST, BUT STILL MEANINGFUL FOR FAMILIES. EXACTLY WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE WILL BE A FOCUS POINT, EXACTA HOW THEY CAME UP WITH THE FORMULA IN WHICH THEY WILL DILUTE OUT, THAT WILL BE A FOCUS POINT, AND WHETHER IT WILL ADD TO INFLATION IS ALSO ANOTHER KEY PIECE OF INTEREST FOR ALL PARTIES, INCLUDING THE RESERVE BANK. THEY SAID THEY SENT A WARNING TO THE GOVERNMENT BASICALLY SAYING THAT THEY WANTED TO KNOW HOW THOSE TAX CUTS ARE GOING TO BE FUNDED, AND ALSO WHETHER OR NOT THAT WILL ADD INFLATION. NICOLA WILLIS SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT WOULD NOT AND THAT THESE ARE FISCALLY NEUTRAL TAX CUTS. SOME OF THOSE BIG-TICKET ITEMS HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANNOUNCED. ARE THERE LIKELY TO BE ANY REAL SURPRISES IN THE BUDGET? I THINK WE HAVE GOT THE THREE CORNERSTONE ISSUES THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS SIGNALLED WILL GET THE BIGGEST BOOSTS, WHICH ARE EDUCATION, AND WE SAW A BIT OF THAT IN TERMS OF YOUR SOLICITOR, BUT ALSO HEALTH. THERE WILL BE A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT IN HEALTH. WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE WILL BE INTRIGUED, BUT ALSO IN LAW & ORDER, SPECIFICALLY FOR POLICE. WE KNOW THAT POLICE ARE CURRENTLY NEGOTIATING THEIR WAGES AT THE MOMENT AS WELL. THAT WILL PROBABLY BE FOLDED INTO IT. THE OTHER THING IS WHAT NEW REVENUE STREAMS WILL THE GOVERNMENT BE BRINGING IN ORDER TO HELP GET IT MORE MONEY? ALL OF THOSE THINGS WILL BE FOCUSED. THE BIG THING THAT PEOPLE WILL BE LOOKING FOR AS WELL IS THAT ONE AND 1/2 BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF GOVERNMENT AGENCY SAVINGS. WHAT WAS THE SCALE OF JOB LOSSES, AND WHAT PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN CUT TO MEET THOSE SAVINGS? FEW DAYS AHEAD. BIG A FEW DAYS AHEAD* AND, OF COURSE, WE'LL BRING YOU DETAILS AND ANALYSIS OF THE 2024 BUDGET. 2024 Q+A BUDGET SPECIAL ` IT KICKS OFF ON THURSDAY AT 2PM ON TVNZ 1 AND TVNZ+. SO YOU KNOW, AS WELL, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE AN EXTENDED LIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE FINANCE MINISTER ON Q+A NEXT SUNDAY. WE'D USUALLY BE OFF-AIR FOR KING'S BIRTHDAY, BUT NICOLA WILLIS WILL BE HERE IN STUDIO FROM 9AM NEXT SUNDAY. COMING UP ` NEW ZEALAND'S INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICIT IS SO GREAT THE NUMBERS ALMOST SOUND MADE UP, BUT A VISITING EXPERT HAS SOME KEY ADVICE ON IMPROVING THE SITUATION. WITHOUT GAS, WITHOUT FUEL, THE NATION WILL COLLAPSE. # YEAH, NOW, LISTEN, PEOPLE, LET ME TELL YOU SOME NEWS. # I SING A SONG CALLED THE CRUDE OIL BLUES. # WE'RE LOW ON HEATING; OH, WE'RE ON LOW ON GAS. # NO, WE'RE NOT LOW ON GAS, THE PETROL SORT, BUT ASSOCIATE ENERGY MINISTER SHANE JONES CLAIMS WE'VE COME CLOSE. I'VE BEEN TOLD BY INDUSTRY ON SOME DAYS THERE'S LESS THAN SIX OR SEVEN DAYS' WORTH OF FUEL IN SOME PARTS OF THE SOUTH ISLAND. HE'S LEADING THE CHARGE FOR A NATIONAL FUEL RESILIENCE PLAN, IN RESPONSE TO OUR NEW FUEL SUPPLY MODEL. NEW ZEALAND'S LATEST DO-IT-YOURSELF EFFORT IS IN OIL REFINING, AND THERE'S A BIG PROJECT AFOOT AT MARSDEN POINT, WHANGAREI. MARSDEN POINT REFINERY WAS OPENED 60 YEARS AGO. IN RECENT YEARS, IT REFINED 70% OF OUR FUEL; 30% WAS IMPORTED. SEVEN DAYS TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING, LUXON! DECOMMISSIONING OF THE REFINERY WAS MET WITH FIERCE DEBATE. IT CLOSED IN 2022. THIS IS JOHN CARNEGIE. HE HEADS ENERGY RESOURCES AOTEAROA, AN ADVOCACY GROUP FOR THE OIL INDUSTRY. NEW ZEALAND ACTUALLY ISN'T ALONE IN CLOSING REFINERIES THAT ARE NO LONGER ECONOMIC. THE GLOBAL TREND HAS BEEN UP FOR OLDER AND SMALLER REFINERIES CLOSING, AS THEY CAN JUST SIMPLY NO LONGER COMPETE. UP UNTIL TWO YEARS AGO, WHEN THE REFINERY CLOSED, TWO NEW ZEALAND-OWNED COASTAL OIL TANKERS DISTRIBUTED THE FUEL FROM MARSDEN POINT AROUND THE COASTAL TANK TERMINALS. NOW ALL OF OUR FUEL IS IMPORTED. SO, THIS OIL TANKER, FOR INSTANCE, ARRIVED IN WELLINGTON HARBOUR LAST NIGHT, AND IT'S COME DOWN FROM THE CHIBA REFINERY IN JAPAN. AND RIGHT NOW, ITS OIL IS BEING PIPED ALONG THAT LONG WHARF TO A TANK FARM JUST BEYOND THE POINT. NO POINT IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY HAS ITS FUEL SUPPLY CHAIN BEEN AS SECURE. MINISTER SHANE JONES IS NOT CONVINCED. WELL, NUMBER ONE, WE HAVE NO NEW ZEALAND FLAGGED VESSELS BRINGING OUR FUEL. WE ARE AT THE MERCY OF THE INTERNATIONAL GLOBAL OIL COMPANIES. IN MY VIEW, THEY'VE TREATED NEW ZEALAND WITH DISRESPECT BY CLOSING DOWN THE REFINERY. THEY, HOWEVER, WOULD ARGUE TO THE CONTRARY. I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD, UH, CONTEMPLATE TOTALLY NEGATIVE SCENARIOS, BUT GEOPOLITICAL, UH, DISHARMONY IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY NEGATIVE EFFECT ON NEW ZEALAND, IF WE DON'T STORE MORE FUEL. THE LAST GOVERNMENT WAS ON TO THAT, AND THEIR LEGISLATION IMPOSING MINIMUM FUEL STOCKHOLDING OBLIGATIONS WILL COME INTO EFFECT NEXT JANUARY. OIL COMPANIES WILL HAVE TO HAVE STORED 28 DAYS OF PETROL, 24 DAYS OF JET FUEL AND 21 DAYS OF DIESEL. BP TOLD Q+A THAT WHILE THEY'RE WORKING TOWARD MEETING THE NEW RULES, THE REGULATIONS, THEY SAY, RISK ADDING COMPLEXITY AND COST, FOR QUESTIONABLE BENEFIT. ALTHOUGH Z ENERGY SUBMITTED AGAINST THE NEW STORAGE OBLIGATIONS, ITS GENERAL MANAGER, JULIAN HUGHES, SAYS THEY CAN MEET THEM. THERE'S, SORT OF, TWO WAYS WE CAN MEET IT ` ONE IS WE CAN, UM, HOLD MORE PRODUCT IN OUR TANKS, OR WE CAN BUILD MORE. AND BOTH OF THOSE OPTIONS ADD ADDITIONAL COSTS TO HOW WE RUN THE SUPPLY CHAIN. AND SO THAT'S THE THING THAT WE'RE TRYING TO GRAPPLE. SO THE OIL COMPANIES ARE WARNING MORE STORAGE, MORE INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING TO COST. BUT WHO, EXACTLY? WILL THE CUSTOMER END UP PAYING FOR THAT? WELL, I THINK THAT'S INEVITABLE. I MEAN, EFFECTIVELY, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS AN INSURANCE POLICY TO MANAGE ANY IDENTIFIED RISKS FOR FUEL RESILIENCE IN NEW ZEALAND. AND, TO BE HONEST, WE'RE NOT CONVINCED THAT THE RISKS ARE LARGE. RECENT TURMOIL, LIKE THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE, SAW A SURGE IN OIL PRICES. WITH MOST OF OUR OIL, DIESEL AND JET FUEL COMING FROM ASIA, DISRUPTIONS IN THE RED SEA HAVEN'T IMPACTED OUR FUEL SUPPLY CHAIN, BUT ANY ESCALATION OF GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS IN ASIA-PACIFIC COULD THREATEN SUPPLY. NEW ZEALAND RODE OUT THE BIG GLOBAL OIL SHOCKS OF 1973 AND 1979 WITH RATIONING SCHEMES. - BACK TO THE FUTURE, AND BY WAY OF A COALITION DEAL, THE NEW ZEALAND FIRST PARTY HAS PROMISED A REPORT ON OUR FUEL RESILIENCE. INCLUDING AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE RE-ESTABLISHMENT OF THE MARSDEN POINT REFINERY ` SHAMEFULLY CLOSED DOWN. MARSDEN POINT IS NOW A FUEL-STORAGE FACILITY, ITS OLD REFINERY PERMANENTLY DECOMMISSIONED. THE OIL COMPANIES, JOHN CARNEGIE SAYS, HAVE MADE OTHER PLANS. NOT TO MENTION THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT A NEW REFINERY WOULD COST TO RE-ESTABLISH. SO YOU JUST CAN'T FLICK THE RESTART BUTTON ON THIS. IS IT A WASTE OF MONEY, COMMISSIONING THIS REPORT OR THIS REVIEW, WHEN YOU KNOW ` YOU'VE BEEN TO MARSDEN POINT ` THAT IT'S VERY UNLIKELY IT'S GOING TO BE RE-ESTABLISHED. THAT'S NOT HOW POLITICS WORKS. POLITICS WORKS BY GIVING AN UNDERTAKING TO VOTERS, SAYING IF WE HAVE THE CHANCE, WE WILL RECREATE REFINERY CAPACITY IN NEW ZEALAND. - BUT Z ENERGY IS STILL GRAPPLING WITH THE LAST GOVERNMENT'S FUEL STORAGE RULES AND WHAT CONSTITUTES STORAGE. - CURRENTLY, IT'S SHIPS ON THE WATER WITHIN THE EEZ; IT'S FUEL THAT ARE IN TANKS. - BUT NOT AT THE PUMP? YEAH, BUT WE HAVEN'T CONFIRMED YET AND THIS IS SOME OF THAT DETAIL ` DOES IT COUNT THE FUEL THAT'S IN THE GROUND CLOSEST TO CUSTOMERS, IN OUR RETAIL SITES, FOR EXAMPLE, OR IN PIPELINES? WE NEED SOME CERTAINTY ON WHERE WE'RE GOING. SO THE LONGER THAT THE DISCUSSION GOES ON, THE HARDER IT IS. WE NEED TIME TO BE ABLE TO PREPARE FOR WHAT MIGHT BE COMING. - DETAILS ON NEW ZEALAND FIRST'S FUEL RESILIENCE INVESTIGATION WILL BE REVEALED THIS COMING WEEK, AND THEY'LL BE EXPECTING THE RESULTS BY CHRISTMAS. WHENA OWEN REPORTING. GOVERNMENT AND INDUSTRY NEED TO WORK BETTER TOGETHER ` THAT'S THE ADVICE FROM THE FORMER BOSS OF INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA AS SHE CONSIDERS NEW ZEALAND'S INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICIT, WHICH HAS BEEN ESTIMATED AT HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. ROMILLY MADEW ALSO HEADED UP AUSTRALIA'S GREEN BUILDING COUNCIL FOR 13 YEARS AND WAS HONOURED BY THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT FOR HER WORK PROMOTING MORE SUSTAINABLE CONSTRUCTION. WE MET WHILE SHE WAS HERE FOR INFRASTRUCTURE NEW ZEALAND'S 'BUILDING SMARTER' SYMPOSIUM, AND I BEGAN BY ASKING HOW OUR INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICIT COMPARES TO AUSTRALIA'S. UH, OUR DEFICIT, I THINK, IS IN THE 400s, BUT I THINK THAT'S BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR. SO, THE PUBLIC SECTOR IS 230 BILLION, BUT` AND MOST OF THAT'S GOING TO BE BUILT THIS YEAR. HOW HAS THAT CHANGED OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS? YOU'VE SEEN UNPRECEDENTED INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT. THE LAST FIVE YEARS HAS` IT'S BEEN A MOUNTAIN WHEN IT COMES TO INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT. AND COVID WAS REALLY THE START OF THAT` OF CLIMBING THAT MOUNTAIN ` THEY USED INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT AS THE STIMULUS. SO THAT WAS THE FIRST PART OF IT, BUT I JUST WANT TO ADD IN ` WE ALSO HAVE ENERGY TRANSITION AND DEFENCE. AND I NOTICE WHEN I COMPARE AUSTRALIA TO NEW ZEALAND OUR DEFENCE SPEND AND OUR ENERGY SPEND ARE, YOU KNOW, QUADRUPLE ` LIKE, REALLY SO MUCH HIGHER THAN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN NEW ZEALAND, WHEN YOU COMPARE IT PER CAPITA. YEAH. AND SO, IN AUSTRALIA, YOU'VE GOT` AND ALL THREE OF THEM ARE ALL LINED UP TOGETHER, BECAUSE THEY ALL RELY ON EACH OTHER. SO WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE SPEND, WHILE I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, YOU'VE GOT TO REALISE WE'VE GOT THESE MASSIVE TWO OTHER AREAS IN THERE THAT ARE BOTH COMPETING FOR SKILLS AND INVESTMENT BUT ARE ALSO CAUSING CHALLENGES IN OUR PIPELINE. WHEN YOU COMPARE NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA, WHAT ARE THE INFRASTRUCTURE CHALLENGES THAT OUR COUNTRIES SHARE? PIPELINE CLARITY WOULD BE ONE; CAPACITY AND CAPABILITY WOULD DEFINITELY BE ANOTHER, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT ENGINEERING. AND I KNOW I'M THE HEAD OF ENGINEERS AUSTRALIA, BUT IT COMES OUT IN THE MARKET CAPACITY REPORT OF INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA THAT WE NEED 229,000 ENGINEERS BY THE END OF 20` BY 2029. AND THE SAME` ALL THE SAME THINGS HAPPENING IN AUSTRALIA ARE HAPPENING IN NEW ZEALAND. OTHER THINGS, SUCH AS PRODUCTIVITY... WHEN IT COMES TO PRODUCTIVITY AND CONSTRUCTION ` IN BOTH COUNTRIES, VERY POOR; WHEN IT COMES TO CULTURE, WHEN IT COMES TO THE PIPELINE, WHICH I TALKED ABOUT. SO THERE'S MULTI` AND THE OTHER ONE I WOULD SAY IS THE USE OF DIGITAL, AGAIN, IS VERY LOW. SO THERE'S REAL SIMILARITIES WHEN IT COMES TO THE TWO COUNTRIES AND THE CHALLENGES WE'RE BOTH FACING. WHAT IS AUSTRALIA DOING BETTER THAN NEW ZEALAND? COLLABORATION, I WOULD THINK, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AND FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, IS PROBABLY WHERE AUSTRALIA REALLY LEADS. AND WHEN I MEAN COLLABORATION, I MEAN THE GREAT ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN BOTH GOVERNMENT AND INDUSTRY. AND I'LL GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES. ONE IS CILF, WHICH IS THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY LEADERSHIP FORUM. IT WAS AN INITIATIVE OF BOTH THE NEW SOUTH WALES AND VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT, AND` BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES INDUSTRY. FROM THAT, THEY CREATED THE CULTURE IN CONSTRUCTION GROUP, UNDER CILF, AND THEY'VE NOW CREATED THE CULTURE IN CONSTRUCTION STANDARD. SO IT'S A REALLY GREAT EXAMPLE OF INDUSTRY AND GOVERNMENT WORKING CLOSELY TOGETHER. MM. ANOTHER WAY` ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS` AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A THREE-TIER SYSTEM, WHERE YOU HAVE A TWO-TIER GOVERNMENT SYSTEM ` IS THROUGH COVID, EVERY STATE AND TERRITORY IN AUSTRALIA HAS AN INFRASTRUCTURE BODY, AND THEN THEY HAVE INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA, WHICH I USED TO BE THE HEAD OF; AND IRRESPECTIVE OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE TIME WITHIN THE STATES AND TERRITORIES, THE ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE BODIES WAS EYE-WATERING... MM. ...AND IT STILL IS TODAY. AND THERE'S JUST THIS FEELING OF, 'IF WE'RE GOING TO GET IT DONE, 'WE'RE GOING TO GET IT DONE TOGETHER, 'AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO THAT?' AND SO IT'S REALLY JUST WORKING OUT WHO'S GREAT AT SOMETHING, AND EVERYONE ELSE JUST FOLLOWS. RIGHT. SO BY HAVING THOSE INDEPENDENT INFRASTRUCTURE AGENCIES, STATE BY STATE, YOU'RE ABLE TO KIND OF WEATHER THE POLITICAL WHIMS OF THE DAY IN A WAY THAT PERHAPS NEW ZEALAND HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO? I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. SO... WHEN YOU LOOK AT NORTHERN TERRITORY, WHICH WAS CREATING THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE COMMISSION, AND IT'S A LABOUR STATE, AND THEN YOU LOOK AT INFRASTRUCTURE NEW SOUTH WALES, WHICH IS A LIBERAL STATE ` INFRASTRUCTURE NEW SOUTH WALES HAD NO QUALMS IN SHARING THEIR INTEL, SHARING THEIR CAPABILITY, SAYING TO INFRASTRUCTURE NORTHERN TERRITORY, 'THE FASTER YOU CAN SET UP, THE MORE EFFICIENT YOU'RE GOING TO BE. 'LEARN FROM US.' AND, YOU KNOW, THEY REALLY HIT THE ROAD RUNNING BECAUSE THEY WERE LEARNING FROM THE NEW SOUTH WALES GOVERNMENT. YEAH, RIGHT. INFRASTRUCTURE FUNDING AND FINANCE IS A HOT TOPIC HERE. WE LOOK TO AUSTRALIA AND THE CITY DEALS THAT HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS ` I THINK THERE ARE NOW 12 CITY DEALS IN PLACE THAT HELP TO FUND INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT. IT'S SOMETHING THE NEW GOVERNMENT IN NEW ZEALAND HAS FLIRTED WITH, AT THE VERY LEAST. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ADVICE TO NEW ZEALAND IN CONSIDERING CITY DEALS? I WOULD DO DUE DILIGENCE INTO CITY DEALS. INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA DID SOME... UNDERTOOK SOME RESEARCH INTO CITY DEALS AT MY TIME WHEN I WAS AT INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA, AND WHAT WE FOUND WAS INCONSISTENCIES ACROSS GOVERNANCE, OUTCOMES OF PROJECTS, COLLABORATION, AUTHENTIC STAKEHOLDER ENGAGEMENT. WAS THIS THE BEST INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE COMMUNITY? WAS IT THE BEST USE OF FUNDS? AND WAS IT THE BEST USE OF, YOU KNOW, DRAINING THE CAPABILITY IN THAT AREA? SO THERE'S SOME CITY DEALS WHERE... THERE COULD BE SAID SOME CHALLENGES AROUND THAT. BUT THEN THERE'S SOME OTHER CITY DEALS THAT WERE REALLY GREAT. SO, ONE THAT COMES TO MIND WAS LAUNCESTON, WHICH WAS MOVING A VERY OLD, TIRED CAMPUS INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CBD OF LAUNCESTON, AND THAT HAD SOME GREAT UPLIFTS FOR LAUNCESTON. BUT THAT WAS ONE OF THE NEWER CITY DEALS, AND I THINK LAUNCESTON HAD PROBABLY LEARNED SOME LESSONS FROM THE EARLIER CITY DEALS. BUT I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND... THERE ARE SO MANY GREAT URBANISTS AROUND THE WORLD WHO'VE GOT SOME VERY STRONG OPINIONS ON WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T. MM. AND REALLY LOOK AND DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE ABOUT HOW EFFECTIVE THEY ARE. BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO MAKE CITY DEALS EFFECTIVE IS GOVERNANCE. PPPs ` PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS ` ARE YOU A FAN? WHERE DO THEY WORK, AND WHERE DON'T THEY? PPPs HAVE WORKED QUITE SUCCESSFULLY IN AUSTRALIA, AND THEN IN SOME PLACES, THEY HAVEN'T. BUT THEY'RE... THEY'RE VERY COMMON IN AUSTRALIA. AND IT'S NORMALLY WHERE THE GOVERNMENT AND THE INDUSTRY HAVE WORKED REALLY CLEARLY TOGETHER RIGHT FROM THE GET-GO ON WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE, RISK ALLOCATION, TIMING, AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY LOCKING IT IN RIGHT AT THE START AND BEING REALLY CLEAR ON WHO'S TAKING THE RISK ON CERTAIN AREAS. AND I` AND SO I THINK... WE'RE ALL STRUGGLING FOR FUNDING FOR OUR INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS. WE HAVE TO BE VERY OPEN-MINDED WHERE THE BEST PLACE TO GET THE FUNDING IS FROM, AND IF PPPs ARE SET UP CORRECTLY ` AND AGAIN, IT COMES AROUND TO GOVERNANCE ` I THINK THEY'RE A VERY VALUABLE TOOL TO USE. ARE WE DOING ENOUGH IN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING TO ADAPT FOR A CLIMATE-CHANGE FUTURE? I THINK AUSTRALIA IS... IF I LOOK AT WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AUSTRALIA IS BECOMING MUCH MORE MATURE IN ITS INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING WHEN IT COMES TO RESILIENCE AND ADAPTATION ` AND AGAIN, IT CAME FROM THE LEADERSHIP OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BODIES. SO THE INFRASTRUCTURE BODIES WROTE INTO THEIR ASSESSMENT FRAMEWORKS ENSURING THAT RESILIENCE, ADAPTATION, SUSTAINABILITY AND THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE WAS EMBEDDED INTO THE BUSINESS CASES, AND THEN THE NEW FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAME IN AND JUST LEGISLATED IT. SO IT IS` ACTUALLY, IF YOU WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING, YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO SHOW AND HIGHLIGHT THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND HOW YOU'RE TAKING THAT INTO ACCOUNT WHEN IT COMES TO INFRASTRUCTURE. I'M NOT SURE I CAN REALLY COMMENT ON NEW ZEALAND AND HOW IT'S BEING DONE HERE. I WOULDN'T` I WOULDN'T SAY I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT IT. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS WE HAD A STANDING START IN AUSTRALIA AND HAVE MOVED... INCREDIBLY QUICKLY TO WHERE WE ARE NOW. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RELEASED TWO WEEKS AGO THE ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE PROCUREMENT POLICY, WHICH STARTS 1 JULY THIS YEAR, AND IT'S USING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S MONEY AS THE LEVER TO SAY, 'IF YOU`' YOU KNOW, 'IF YOU WANT TO BID FOR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING, 'THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BUILD 'WITH AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE MINDSET INTO THE PROJECT.' YEAH. AND EXPLAIN THAT A LITTLE MORE FOR OUR VIEWERS, BECAUSE IT'S QUITE A STEP CHANGE IN THE WAY THAT PROJECTS ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE DELIVERED, RIGHT? SO, IT'S LOOKING AT A NUMBER OF THINGS. SO, ONE IS CIRCULAR ECONOMY. INSTEAD OF USING VIRGIN MATERIAL FOR THE WHOLE` A WHOLE ROAD PROJECT, INFRASTRUCTURE AUSTRALIA FOUND THAT 27% OF MATERIALS COULD BE THROUGH RECYCLED MATERIALS. RIGHT. SO VICTORIAN GOVERNMENT TOOK THAT A STEP FURTHER AND EMBEDDED INTO THEIR PROCUREMENT PROCESS A 'RECYCLING FIRST' POLICY. SO WHAT WE'RE FINDING NOW IS` EMBEDDING INTO THE DESIGN OF INFRASTRUCTURE, IS ` WELL, ACTUALLY, THERE IS SO MUCH MATERIAL OUT THERE. WE HAVE ALL THESE SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES. HOW CAN WE USE RECYCLED MATERIAL INTO OUR PROJECTS? IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE. THE OTHER ONE WHEN IT COMES TO RESILIENCE IS... WHEN WE HAVE` SAY THERE'S A FLOOD AND WE'VE LOST A BRIDGE ` INSTEAD OF BUILDING IT BACK THE SAME, WE USE THE TERM, 'BUILD IT BACK BETTER.' RIGHT. SO SHOULD IT BE BUILT BACK WHERE IT WAS? SHOULD IT BE BUILT HIGHER? WILL IT BE BUILT WITH DIFFERENT STRENGTH AND MATERIALS? WILL IT BE BUILT TO BE MORE AGILE AND COPE WITH THE FACT THAT WE'RE GETTING THESE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS? SO THAT'S BEING EMBEDDED INTO BUSINESS CASES AS WELL. SO THERE'S MULTIPLE WAYS IT'S BEING EMBEDDED IN. AND THEN THE FINAL ONE WHEN IT COMES TO PROCUREMENT IS THE MATERIALS THAT ARE BEING USED. WHAT'S THE CARBON IMPACT OF THOSE MATERIALS? USING OFFSITE MANUFACTURING IN AUSTRALIA. SO THERE'S MULTIPLE WAYS THAT THIS IS BEING PICKED UP IN OUR BUSINESS CASES AND PROCUREMENT MODELS. AND DOES AUSTRALIA THINK OF ITSELF AS BEING A BIT OF A LEADER IN THIS SPACE? I WOULDN'T SAY THAT WE WOULD THINK WE WERE A LEADER, BUT I'D SAY WE'RE ON THE PATH TO BEING A LEADER. I WOULD LOOK AT MORE` OTHER COUNTRIES SUCH AS THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES... SCANDINAVIA, YEAH. ...AND THE WORK THAT LAING O'ROURKE, FOR INSTANCE, IS DOING IN THE UK ON MODERN METHODS OF MANUFACTURING AND CONSTRUCTION. YOU KNOW, THEY BUILD THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE` BRIDGES IN THEIR MANUFACTURING PLANT IN STEETLEY AND THEN TAKE THEM OUT AND PUT THEM ON SITE ` SAVING MONEY, SAFETY... YEAH. ...YOU KNOW, SUSTAINABILITY ELEMENTS IN THAT AS WELL. SO` BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS AUSTRALIA HAS MOVED VERY QUICKLY IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, BUT THE STATE GOVERNMENTS HAD ALREADY BEEN LEADING IN THIS AREA, AS HAD INDUSTRY... YEAH. ...SO IT WASN'T LIKE WE WERE A STANDING START. BUT WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAME IN AND PUT LEGISLATION IN ON CLIMATE WHEN IT CAME TO INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, IT MOVED RELATIVELY QUICKLY. THAT'S ROMILLY MADEW. YOU CAN CATCH OUR FULL CONVERSATION, WHERE WE TALK MORE ABOUT SUSTAINABLE BUILDING PRACTICES, ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. WE'LL SEE YOU THIS THURSDAY FOR THE 2024 BUDGET SPECIAL. UNTIL THEN, HAVE A GREAT DAY. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND TOM CLARKE. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2024.